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Hi and welcome to K Let's Talk, 
the podcast where we breakdown 

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storytelling across books, 
television and film with a 

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special love for book to screen 
adaptations. 

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Here we talk about craft, 
character arcs, structure, 

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dialogue, visual language, and 
the creative choices that shape 

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how a story lands. 
If you like thoughtful, 

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conversational, deep dives into 
the stories you can't stop 

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thinking about, you're in the 
right place. 

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Let's talk. 
Hello everyone, and welcome back

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to the podcast. 
I am excited because today's 

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episode, I'm going to be talking
all about the book con interview

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that Jacob Tierney and Rachel 
Reid gave in New York City and 

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my commentary on it. 
I listened to the YouTube 

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presentation that they very 
kindly put online for everyone 

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who could not attend and took 
some notes about what they 

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talked about in regards to 
making the show, writing the 

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book unrivaled, and also what 
they talked about in regards to 

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season 2. 
Because I think everybody is 

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anxiously awaiting any news 
regarding Season 2, myself 

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included some speculation about 
what we can expect, and Jacob 

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had a few interesting tidbits 
that I wanted to elaborate upon 

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and open up a discussion about. 
So if you are interested in 

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chatting about any of these 
topics in the comments, please 

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feel free to leave a comment. 
I always love hearing people 

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chime in and give their two 
cents on season 2. 

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What we can expect, the writing 
for the show, how they might 

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film certain things, and 
speculating is fun as we wait 

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for the second season to come 
out. 

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I thought that the answers and 
responses during the 

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conversation were really 
fascinating and insightful, and 

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I really enjoyed it. 
So that's what we're going to 

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talk about today because I 
wanted to. 

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So interestingly, this is Jacob 
and Rachel's first public 

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conversation since the show 
aired, which I think is crazy. 

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I don't know about everybody 
else, but it's almost like time 

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feels like a construct to me. 
Since the show aired in 

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November. 
I both can't believe it's been 

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that long, and it feels like it 
came out yesterday to me. 

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So the fact that this is their 
first public conversation since 

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November when the show came out 
is crazy. 

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And I'm happy that they were 
able to do that because I feel 

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like it's very rare or hopefully
it's going to become less rare. 

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I should I should say that an 
author has this much 

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participation in the launch of 
the show and also visibility 

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because of the show. 
I think it's really special that

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Rachel has been looped into so 
many of these conversations 

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about the show and that Jacob 
and her clearly have a very good

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friendship between the two of 
them where they're collaborative

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with one another constantly. 
And we can see that the two of 

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them are continuing that 
relationship as Jacob is writing

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for season 2 and Rachel is 
writing the next book in the 

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series. 
And I think that's really 

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special that the two of them are
able to kind of go through this 

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craziness in tandem with one 
another and enjoy it together. 

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And most of the time, I think 
the author in a situation like 

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this is very much in the 
background. 

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Most of the hype and 
conversation is around the 

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actors and the people involved 
in the TV show. 

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Since the visual is AI think 
easier for a lot of people to 

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grab on to. 
Whereas reading a book it's more

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time consuming and not 
everybody's going to envision 

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everything the same. 
So there's less, I would argue, 

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conversation about a book out in
the open versus a show where you

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can talk about gifts and people 
can do screen grabs and you can 

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rewatch clips of scenes. 
It's just easier for a show to 

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go viral versus text in a book. 
But Rachel has been riding this 

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wave as well, and a lot of her 
commentary, I think, kind of 

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echoes that in this conversation
that she had. 

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And she had said that the two of
them have read the books 

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probably 6 or 7 times each. 
I would imagine as Jacob is 

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writing scripts, he's continuing
to read over them quite heavily 

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just to make sure he's pulling 
things out of the source 

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material that he wants to keep 
true to the source material. 

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But they also talked about how 
they consult with one another 

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about timeline discrepancies and
when things happen and how 

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things happen. 
And they refer to the book quite

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often or correct each other when
they're trying to make sure that

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there's continuity going on in 
both mediums that they're 

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writing in. 
So I think that's really cool. 

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Rachel also was really excited 
when they talked about the new 

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book that Jacob is releasing in 
October that will include 

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scripts and never before seen 
photographs and annotations from

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his writing. 
And she's been saying all the 

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way through the promotional 
period that the scripts were 

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really awesome for her to read 
and she was deeply invested in 

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the story being told by Jacob 
once she was able to get her 

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hands on them. 
And all the actors involved said

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the same thing, that when they 
were auditioning, they noticed 

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that the script was really 
special. 

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And so for people who are a fan 
of reading scripts and 

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screenplays, I think that that 
book is going to be really 

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great. 
I'm sure people will buy it 

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strictly just to look at the 
photographs and everything, but 

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I'm really curious about the 
annotations as well and the 

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ability to compare how it was 
written in the script versus how

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the actors shot it. 
And we can hopefully kind of 

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pinpoint some of those creative 
decisions that Jacob was 

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referring to in this 
conversation later on. 

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It's actually a question that 
Hudson Williams had posed to him

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about how much the story can 
change from the script to 

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shooting it to editing it, and 
what the final product is in 

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comparison to where all the 
people involved in the show are 

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basing it off of in the original
script. 

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So I'm really excited about 
that. 

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I'll I'll probably be pre 
ordering that book and I think 

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it'll be another great 
opportunity for people who are 

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interested in storytelling in 
this fashion to break it down 

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and see how he works and how he 
writes and then also how 

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everybody interpreted it. 
On the day. 

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Rachel talked about how she knew
she had wanted to be a writer 

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since she was a little kid, but 
she didn't think that that was 

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going to happen and she started 
writing when her kids were 

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young. 
It's crazy to think about that. 

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I think it's a great message to 
send to people who are aspiring 

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authors. 
I'm one of those people. 

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I'm still working on writing my 
first novel and it's a labor of 

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love and it's very time 
consuming. 

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And you question yourself so 
many times as to whether or not 

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you even have that innate 
ability to write a good story 

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within you. 
And I think that her message 

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about just doing it because she 
wanted to and for the love of it

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is really inspiring. 
And you never know where it 

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could lead. 
And her life has been completely

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changed by her taking the time 
to put pen to paper or, you 

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know, type out on her computer 
and build upon an idea that she 

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had in her head. 
And originally, Game Changer was

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supposed to be a standalone, and
then she had a separate idea for

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Heated Rivalry. 
Her pointing out that her 

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publisher is the one that 
suggested the book be written as

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a series is really important. 
Because I think that, again, 

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reminds everybody, if you're 
looking to get into writing, 

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that it's very collaborative 
initially. 

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It can be very isolating when 
you're writing alone, but 

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eventually if you let people in 
to read it or have ARC readers 

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involve publishers, it can 
become way more collaborative in

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that way. 
And I think that's really cool 

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that she touched upon it too. 
And I also liked that she talked

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about how when she started to 
write Tough Guy, that's when she

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realized that this series could 
just keep going as Ilia made 

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more and more appearances. 
She knew that his character was 

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really, really powerful and 
could easily take over a scene 

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or an entire book if she wasn't 
careful. 

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And I think that that's so true.
You can tell that in Role Model 

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in particular, I find that the 
moments where Ilya pops up are 

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very much a highlight and it 
does sort of take over the 

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story. 
You want more of him. 

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He's just that alluring of a 
character. 

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And then she also talked about 
Role Model and how that was her 

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best opportunity to use Ilya a 
lot for the first time in a book

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outside of his own. 
Role Model, I would say after 

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Heated Rivalry and The Long Game
is my next favorite book in the 

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series, probably for that 
reason. 

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But I also think Troy and Harris
are particularly. 

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Troy is a really well written, 
constructed character and I 

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can't wait for Jacob to get his 
hands on him because he 

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mentioned in this conversation 
that he's really going to dive 

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further into Troy. 
That's something that I 

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genuinely am really excited to 
see in season 2. 

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Jacob also pointed out that 
Rachel's humor and her wit is 

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very evident in the way she 
writes. 

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Ilya, his character is 
definitely a a conduit for her 

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to showcase her humor. 
Jacob pointed out that he's very

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partial to humor in his own 
work. 

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He'll never cut a joke for a 
show if the actors can make him 

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laugh. 
And I think that Ilya in season 

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1, he did have a few comical 
moments. 

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I'm really starting to think 
that Jacob's going to lean 

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heavily into him having more, 
especially since he's going to 

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be interacting with other 
characters more often in Season 

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2. 
So we'll have plenty of 

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opportunities for him to be 
joking with Hayden and also with

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Harris, and also with Troy, 
obviously, and then naturally 

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with Shane. 
So I think that will be fun 

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because Ilia in particular is 
going to have such a wide array 

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of emotions to go through and 
cover, and his behaviors are 

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going to be so widely spread. 
He can be hilarious, and he's 

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also going to be deeply, deeply 
depressed. 

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So there's going to be lots for 
Connor's story in particular to 

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dive into by way of his 
character, too. 

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They also covered again how 
Jacob followed Rachel back in 

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2023, sent her Adm and she had 
just found out about her own 

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diagnosis with her health and 
the two of them had a Zoom call 

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shortly after the DMS. Jacob 
points out that he was actually 

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shooting another project at the 
time, and he had read an article

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about hockey romance as a genre 
and was worried that someone 

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else would option Rachelle 
books. 

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So he jumped on the opportunity 
as quickly as he could, and 

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Rachel almost immediately could 
tell that Jacob's passion for 

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the story was there and he 
really wanted to take it 

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seriously and make it come to 
life in the way that I think 

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Rachel had always hoped that it 
would be. 

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So she never had any hesitation 
about letting him be the one to 

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spearhead this project, nor did 
she say she felt like she had 

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any hesitation about it actually
coming to fruition. 

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And what I really love to hear 
Jacob say is that it was insane 

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to him how quickly this show 
actually came to be. 

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He said it happened within three
years time. 

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That's really, really rare. 
I don't think people, if you're 

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not familiar with the industry, 
understand just how long it can 

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take for a project to get off 
the ground. 

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And Jacob pointing that out, I 
think is really important, 

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especially as people start to 
get impatient about the turn 

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around time for them to film and
shoot and write Season 2. 

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This is very breakneck pace. 
And Jacob pointed out that all 

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throughout the process with 
everybody involved, which is 

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hundreds and hundreds of people,
instead of things getting slowed

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down, everyone involved actually
speed it up. 

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And it really reinforces to me 
just how much of the lightning 

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in a bottle the creation of this
show is on top of just the magic

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of the show itself. 
The fact that it got made in 

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this fashion and that everyone 
involved speed up the timeline 

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for it, even moved up the 
premiere date is just crazy. 

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It it doesn't happen that way. 
He says that everything about 

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the way the show was made made 
the creators feel like they were

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playing catch up, given the 
speed of things. 

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And we know that to be true 
because they were still editing 

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the show all the way up until it
aired. 

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And Jacob was saying that 
episode 6 was only completed 11 

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days before it aired on HBO. 
So again, I I think this is a 

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given, but the fact that we're 
going to have it filmed, Season 

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2 filmed this summer is also 
insane because Jacob had to 

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write an entire script prior to 
being able to even schedule 

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things and get these people who 
are involved in the show onto a 

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schedule. 
It's so insane that we're 

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getting the turn around this 
quickly. 

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And I think that everybody is so
used to things being instant and

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the turn around time shrinking 
and shrinking and shrinking that

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they forget that good quality 
things take time. 

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00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,600
And yes, we're going to get a 
product very quickly 

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00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,120
considering, but we should be 
thankful for that because it's 

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00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,880
very, very rare. 
Rachel also said that she saw 

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00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:06,080
rough cuts of the show back in 
September, October. 

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00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,280
And again, the show premiered in
November. 

234
00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:13,960
So that's insane. 
The show was picture locked in 

235
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:18,960
late September, which means that
there's no VFX, music, anything 

236
00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,920
added to it but the frame by 
frame and scene by scene, that's

237
00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,880
all finalized. 
And the show was sold in 

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00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,520
mid-october to HBO and then it 
premiered in November, which is 

239
00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,160
crazy because originally it was 
supposed to air in February in 

240
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,360
tandem with the Winter Olympics.
And I think that if they did 

241
00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,720
roll it out in that timeline, 
the reception would have been 

242
00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,760
very different because everyone 
was home for the holidays and 

243
00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,600
everybody was absolutely 
obsessed going into Christmas 

244
00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,720
time watching the slow drip 
release on HBO. 

245
00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,200
Which again, I think is 
brilliant because having the 

246
00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,800
show air 1 episode at a time 
means that all of us 

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00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,640
collectively could converse 
about what happened in that 

248
00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,920
episode for seven days before 
the next one dropped. 

249
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,720
And that gets conversation and 
buzz going around a show or what

250
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,520
it's worth. 
HBO's model has been successful.

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00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,000
I think the best example of that
was back when Game of Thrones 

252
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,440
was in its heyday and how 
everyone was talking about the 

253
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,760
episode the entire week in 
between the drops. 

254
00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,800
And that creates a buzz that you
can't replicate in many other 

255
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:21,680
ways now with streaming 
services. 

256
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,000
Jacob pointed out too, that HBO 
didn't really even know what 

257
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,520
they bought because the product 
they saw was so raw and 

258
00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,440
unfinished, but they had such 
faith in the product that they 

259
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,680
didn't care. 
And I think that again, it's 

260
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:39,240
just really, really incredible 
to hear that the show was was 

261
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,320
made in this way because it 
doesn't happen that way anymore 

262
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,240
with streaming products and, and
shows like this. 

263
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:49,960
They also had a few questions 
from fans and the first one was 

264
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,720
from Connor, who had sent a 
voice note with a question to 

265
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:54,640
ask them. 
He sent 2. 

266
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,760
So the first one for Jacob was 
what was it about Rachel's 

267
00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,440
writing and storytelling that 
made it easy for him to connect 

268
00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,720
and then execute, making ATV 
show out of it? 

269
00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,240
And for Rachel, he asked what it
was about Jacob that was 

270
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,560
successful at bringing the story
off the page and building it out

271
00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,760
into a physical world. 
I think the answers are are 

272
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,640
pretty much covered in multiple 
interviews that the two of them 

273
00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,040
have given. 
But they reiterated again, 

274
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,000
Rachel knew that Jacob was an 
excellent filmmaker. 

275
00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,680
He's also very funny. 
I think the two of them have 

276
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,520
their humor in common, and so I 
think she trusted that the way 

277
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:30,480
she wrote the humor in these 
books was going to get 

278
00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,920
translated properly and included
in the story. 

279
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,000
But she said that in their Zoom 
call, it was clear to her how 

280
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,440
much he understood the 
characters, and that he wanted 

281
00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,960
to tell a story that leaned 
heavily into the source material

282
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,400
and didn't water down the text 
at all. 

283
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,920
Because this is, after all, a 
smutty book, and he didn't want 

284
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:49,760
to shy away from that. 
He wanted to lean into it. 

285
00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,960
And he also made it clear that 
the goal of everything was to 

286
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,440
celebrate queer joy, which meant
a lot to her. 

287
00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,920
So she never was worried about 
her characters being in Jacob's 

288
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:01,600
care. 
And then again, when she read 

289
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,000
the scripts, they were amazing. 
So she knew that no matter what 

290
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,640
he turned out, the writing was 
there, the solid writing was 

291
00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,800
there, and all he had to do was 
find the right people to be the 

292
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,240
characters. 
And as we know, they certainly 

293
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,040
did. 
Jacob said he knew he loved the 

294
00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,680
books and he wanted to cover a 
story about queer joy, but also 

295
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:22,800
he joked that he wanted to make 
something horny. 

296
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:28,560
He pointed out that for him, he 
doesn't understand how recently 

297
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,400
in art sex is divorced from the 
art, or that the current trend 

298
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,760
right now is for the sex that we
do see on screen to often be 

299
00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,440
violent or unpleasant or non 
consensual. 

300
00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:40,960
And for him, that doesn't make 
him feel joy. 

301
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:45,440
He really wanted to revive that 
conversation about how sex can 

302
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,720
be joyful, particularly queer 
love and sex. 

303
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,160
And he also loved that heated 
rivalry used sex to tell the 

304
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,960
story. 
He could tell that it was the 

305
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,600
architect of this relationship 
that took place over the course 

306
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,440
of ten years, and it's when the 
characters are there, most 

307
00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,200
honest and vulnerable. 
He said that as he's writing 

308
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,960
season 2, he knows that the 
overarching theme of Shane and 

309
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,880
Ilya's story is the emotion 
between the two of them, and the

310
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,560
traditional storytelling. 
Beats still matter, of course, 

311
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,960
and he uses them. 
But to him, it's not as 

312
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,079
important as the feelings that 
you're left with as a viewer or 

313
00:17:23,079 --> 00:17:26,839
a reader when you're thinking 
about their relationship in 

314
00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:29,400
general. 
Loved his conversation. 

315
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,760
About how? 
The story of Heated Rivalry was 

316
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,080
written in a way where it's 
almost as though we are reading 

317
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,880
the characters memories of these
very specific moments in their 

318
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:45,000
lives and these huge events. 
And I, I kind of felt that way 

319
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:46,440
when I read it the first time 
too. 

320
00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,200
But it's especially clear in the
show because we spend every 

321
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:54,960
scene with one or both of these 
characters and it's it's 

322
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:59,160
basically taking the largest 
moment in that day of their life

323
00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,240
and highlighting it. 
So these huge life events are 

324
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,400
told through Shane or Ilya and 
what they were doing both 

325
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,920
separately or together. 
And every single time it 

326
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:11,320
revolves around the other 
person. 

327
00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:15,200
So their memories of each other 
and with each other are what is 

328
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,920
used to convey their story. 
And the sex is about a powerful 

329
00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,680
part of that. 
And Jacob had promised Rachel 

330
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:23,920
that he would take that 
seriously because romance is 

331
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,120
often watered down or dulled 
down. 

332
00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:29,920
And he really wanted to make an 
effort to dig deeper into what 

333
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:34,520
Rachel had created because 
underneath the fluff, there are 

334
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:39,120
two very real and understandable
characters in Shane and Ilya. 

335
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:43,240
And he also pointed out later on
that Troy falls under that camp 

336
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,560
too, and he wanted to dig deeper
into them. 

337
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,280
And I think that that's 
evidenced by how he included 

338
00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,320
more scenes that were original 
to the story and built out the 

339
00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:58,000
world in a very realistic way 
that heightens the characters 

340
00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,240
even further. 
The next question that they 

341
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:05,600
talked about was when they 
decided to include just Shane 

342
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,920
and Ilya as the the main story 
of the show and and make it 

343
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,800
about heated rivalry and not 
more of like an overarching 

344
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:15,680
story about each of the books in
the series. 

345
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,800
And Jacob said simply he liked 
Shane and Ilia the best. 

346
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,360
He discovered the series through
those characters. 

347
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,040
He knew that they already had 
their own sequel, so their arc 

348
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,240
is bigger than these other ones.
And Simply put, their 

349
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,440
relationship is the one that has
the biggest following in this 

350
00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,600
book series. 
And I think that that's fair for

351
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,640
everybody who reads it. 
They're definitely who the story

352
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,480
is about and everyone else is a 
supporting character in that in 

353
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,480
that overarching storyline. 
And Rachel confirmed that they 

354
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,080
are the stars of the series. 
Jacob made a point to say no 

355
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,920
shade to Troy Barrett, but to 
me, it's very clear that he 

356
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,160
really loves Troy's character. 
And so again, I'm I'm super 

357
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,440
excited and curious to see what 
he does with him and how he digs

358
00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:01,000
into him further and if he 
creates more of an original back

359
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,040
story for him. 
Because in his book, we kind of 

360
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,280
jump in at a very specific 
moment in his life and we get 

361
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,640
little hints about what his life
was like before we meet him at 

362
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,840
that point. 
And I think Jacob does an 

363
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:17,400
excellent job of building out a 
back story and including it in 

364
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,240
really smart and effective 
simple scenes that heighten 

365
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,600
further behaviors and and big 
moments that that character goes

366
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,160
through further on. 
They also asked when Jacob. 

367
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:31,080
Told Rachel that he was going to
include Game Changer in the 

368
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,560
show, which is referring to the 
standalone episode 3, and he 

369
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,360
said right away and he told her 
that on his first Zoom call. 

370
00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:41,360
So again, this reiterates that 
he truly had given this so much 

371
00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:43,760
thought about how he would have 
brought these books to life. 

372
00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:47,880
And that must be so validating 
as an author to have someone 

373
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:53,520
come to you with this fully 
actualized concept and be so 

374
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,960
enthusiastic about it. 
He always knew that Game Changer

375
00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,520
was going to be a part of the 
show because the story of Scott 

376
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:04,640
and Kipp is so necessary for the
Episode 5 that he had envisioned

377
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:06,920
in his head to have the impact 
he wanted. 

378
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:11,160
And so it was always part of his
plan to keep that, and also part

379
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:12,760
of his plan to keep Rachel 
involved. 

380
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,400
Throughout the the. 
Whole storytelling process 

381
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,640
because he didn't want to 
surprise her with any of his 

382
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,680
decision making, she pointed 
out. 

383
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,040
Rachel pointed out that she also
didn't want to interfere with 

384
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,480
his process. 
She chimes in when she's asked, 

385
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,280
and for the most part, she 
trusts Jacob to do his thing and

386
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:29,920
stays out of it. 
And again, I think that just 

387
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,200
highlights that they have a 
really healthy working 

388
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,840
relationship where they both 
respect each other's process and

389
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,120
capabilities and talents so 
much. 

390
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:42,200
And that's really, really rare. 
I think that it adds to how 

391
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,480
successful the show is because 
if you don't have that trust 

392
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,040
between the two of them, I don't
know if you have the types of 

393
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,320
open conversations the two of 
them must have had behind the 

394
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,960
scenes in order to strengthen 
the storytelling. 

395
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,760
They also talked about how 
Episode 5 is listed as one of 

396
00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,640
the highest rated episodes of TV
ever, which I think is still 

397
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,440
insane. 
And Jacob was asked how he 

398
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,960
chooses the music for his 
projects and he simply said 

399
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,480
there's no method, he just picks
songs that he likes. 

400
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,600
Interestingly, he compared it to
casting actors, where he said 

401
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,880
that there are great songs that 
work for specific moments, but 

402
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,240
there are also great songs that 
don't work as well. 

403
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,200
There are songs that he might 
not like as much, but they 

404
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,520
happen to work fantastically in 
specific moments. 

405
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,560
So for him it's all a bit of 
alchemy. 

406
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,600
And he said that the one 
conscious choice he always 

407
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,200
wanted to use was I'll believe 
in anything in some project. 

408
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,400
He didn't say only for heated 
rivalry. 

409
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,920
He said he always wanted to use 
that song in something. 

410
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,480
And it's because he likes how 
the song builds and swoops and 

411
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:47,680
crests. 
And I think that's so true 

412
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,480
because he uses it in a very 
particular way in episode 5. 

413
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,200
But it is a very long song so he
had to write a scene that 

414
00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,320
accommodates to that. 
And he said in general, lyrics 

415
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,880
for him are tricky because he 
doesn't want the lyrics to be 

416
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,240
too literal and that's why he 
likes French music so much. 

417
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,880
There is a lot of French music 
in this show that he uses, which

418
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,880
makes sense given the location 
that they're in. 

419
00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:15,680
But I also agree with him that a
lot of time instrumentals can be

420
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,880
more effective because they can 
evoke a feeling without being so

421
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,240
literal about what you're 
supposed to feel. 

422
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,880
And for him, the sunshine lyric 
in I'll Believe in Anything is a

423
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:31,800
specific thing that he used to 
really kind of thread multiple 

424
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,640
scenes together, but also, he 
said, crystallize an emotion or 

425
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:40,120
an idea of the scene. 
So the payoff of the lighting 

426
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,760
being in our eyes as the camera 
swoops around and knowing that 

427
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,600
they both deserve sunshine, and 
then we hear the words about 

428
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,000
that sunshine coming through in 
the song at this exact moment in

429
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,480
time, it just creates this 
really emotional build up that 

430
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,840
has this huge payoff. 
And for him, editing and music 

431
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,320
are where he can aid in the 
emotional storytelling. 

432
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,320
So if there's a scene that's 
meant to evoke a certain 

433
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,320
emotion, you can add on a song 
or edit it in a way that really 

434
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,800
hammers home what you're 
supposed to feel or emphasize is

435
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,400
the feeling. 
So for him, songs are used very 

436
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,880
strategically. 
But he also was pretty candid in

437
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,680
saying that he has to like the 
song, and he also has to be able

438
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,760
to afford the song because songs
are very expensive to add to 

439
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,160
projects like this. 
And the other important thing 

440
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,280
for him is that he doesn't want 
lyrics to be too on the nose. 

441
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:38,440
So I think that if you go over 
the soundtrack for the series, 

442
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,000
you can kind of identify which 
songs are used in those 

443
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,160
strategic ways. 
I think the fact that he does 

444
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,200
montages so well is huge 
because, again, would they be as

445
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:49,880
effective if the song was 
different? 

446
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,440
You want to think about that 
when you're putting the edit 

447
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,520
together. 
And that's all stuff that takes 

448
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,560
a lot of foresight, but also 
talent to be able to, in your 

449
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,840
head, pull together a soundtrack
like that. 

450
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,440
And he also said he listens to a
lot of music while he's writing,

451
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,480
and then that kind of naturally 
feeds its way into the 

452
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,520
storytelling too. 
So I find that fascinating, 

453
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,040
especially as someone who 
typically tends to write to 

454
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,880
orchestral or instrumental 
soundtrack music. 

455
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,560
And he also was listening to 
Peter Peter when he was writing,

456
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,040
and that's who was the composer 
on this project. 

457
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,680
So it's all very looped in and 
and very nicely pulled together 

458
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,920
in that way. 
They asked Rachel how she felt 

459
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,680
about seeing the kiss on the ice
in Episode 5, and then also 

460
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,760
Shane and Ilya reacting to it. 
And she said that when she wrote

461
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,240
the Scott and Kipp kiss, she 
always felt it would be so great

462
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:40,680
to see it filmed and brought to 
life. 

463
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,160
But the way that Jacob cut it 
and edited it was truly the best

464
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,560
thing for her to see. 
And she knew when she watched 

465
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,080
the rough cut of that episode 
that it was incredible. 

466
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,400
So she wasn't surprised that it 
was everybody's favorite 

467
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,480
episode. 
And again, knowing just how long

468
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,680
Jacob had planned and that 
particular scene in his head and

469
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,200
then that that's one of the 
things he's most proud of and 

470
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,880
all the work he's done, it just 
makes me so happy to know that 

471
00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:08,200
the payoff was there. 
All that effort and his 

472
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,120
creativity was able to shine in 
the way that he wanted it to. 

473
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:13,200
And now he's being rewarded for 
that. 

474
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,360
So I think that's really cool. 
Jacob also said he was surprised

475
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:19,600
by the fan reaction after 
Episode 1 and 2 because, again, 

476
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,720
those were released in tandem 
with one another. 

477
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:23,920
And it was very intense on his 
end. 

478
00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:27,240
And then he said that again, 
because it was a weekly drop 

479
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,680
after episode 3, the fan 
reaction became more intense. 

480
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,440
He kind of lost a gauge of how 
to anticipate what the fan 

481
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,280
reaction was going to be week 
after week. 

482
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,760
But he knew that episode 5 was 
coming. 

483
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,520
And the end of episode 5 was 
this huge culmination of work 

484
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,160
that he had poured into this 
project and, and would have this

485
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,360
really big emotional payoff. 
And I can only imagine what that

486
00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:54,240
would have been like on the back
end, knowing what's coming in a 

487
00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:57,440
few weeks time and seeing fan 
reactions and just waiting in 

488
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,080
the wings to see how crazy 
everyone's going to go when they

489
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,160
watch episode 5 and the ending 
of episode 5 in particular. 

490
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:08,560
And I know for me, I was 
watching the episode in the 

491
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,480
middle of the night and I just 
had this outer body experience, 

492
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,360
really marveling over how well 
constructed it was. 

493
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,400
It was almost like I had to 
watch it once to appreciate how 

494
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,720
it was composed and shot and 
edited, and then I had to watch 

495
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,160
it again to really let myself 
feel the emotions of the 

496
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,680
characters and appreciate the 
acting in the scene. 

497
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:33,000
It's like both elements of that 
scene were just so incredibly 

498
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,960
well done that they both 
deserved its own moment to 

499
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,640
celebrate the. 
The work, the work. 

500
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,280
Behind the scenes, behind the 
camera and the work in front of 

501
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,000
the camera, it was just 
incredible. 

502
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,520
The two of them also confirmed 
that Hudson and Connor had read 

503
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,120
the books multiple times, and 
Jacob and Rachel were asked if 

504
00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:53,480
they talked to them specifically
about the language used in 

505
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,680
romance novels. 
So how often the characters are 

506
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,480
described as, you know, their 
eyes darkened or gazing with 

507
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,280
their lips, all those different 
kind of ways of explaining 

508
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,520
little micro expressions that 
characters can have. 

509
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,440
Rachel said she didn't talk to 
them about the language of 

510
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,080
romance novels, but more so talk
to them about the genre in 

511
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:14,840
general. 
And then they deep dived into 

512
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,120
the characters themselves. 
And Jacob interestingly said he 

513
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:20,520
does not talk to his actors 
about stuff like that. 

514
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:26,200
His notes for them are always on
something that they can take and

515
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,080
use in their performance in a 
very granular way. 

516
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,720
And so he really relied heavily 
on their chemistry that he knew 

517
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,040
they had. 
So he would just tell them, look

518
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,400
at him, and then he would use 
his camera to convey whatever he

519
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,320
wanted to capture in that scene.
So I'll drift the camera down 

520
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,160
from your mouth to your eyes, is
what he is quoted saying in this

521
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,360
moment. 
So again, I think that's such a 

522
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,160
great insight into how Jacob 
works and how much he trusts his

523
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,080
actors and how he relies so much
on their talents and their 

524
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,720
inputs and what they bring to 
the table and how it can add to 

525
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,080
his storytelling and that he 
doesn't have this vice grip on 

526
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,520
what it's going to look like. 
He makes it very collaborative. 

527
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,840
And so he would give them a 
note, like, look at his mouth, 

528
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,680
look at his mouth, follow the 
water bottle. 

529
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,960
And Jacob also trusted that 
their bodies would react 

530
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:24,600
naturally to those movements. 
And I think we see that very 

531
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,400
effortlessly in the show. 
It never feels like what they're

532
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,280
doing is choreographed, even 
though we know that some parts 

533
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:35,000
of it are heavily choreographed.
A lot of what people love about 

534
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,000
the show are those micro 
expressions and reactions they 

535
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,120
have to one another. 
And now you know that Jacob was 

536
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,440
really relying on their bodies 
reacting to each other 

537
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,560
naturally. 
And that's so important to hear 

538
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,200
when you're watching something 
because it makes the 

539
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,680
performances feel really rooted 
and realism. 

540
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,680
And because of that, he didn't 
have to give them too many 

541
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,840
notes, which I think is very 
cool. 

542
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,360
And we know that they shot this 
so quickly that he didn't 

543
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,880
overextend. 
He told them what he wanted. 

544
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,120
He let them react the way they 
reacted and he captured what he 

545
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,200
captured and then trusted that 
that magic was going to be there

546
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,120
on the day. 
And it was. 

547
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,320
They talked about conversations 
regarding Shane being autistic, 

548
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:23,320
Hudson's betrayal of autism, and
how he really tried to hone in 

549
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,320
on his real life experiences 
with his own dad to inform some 

550
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,720
of his decision making as the 
character. 

551
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,160
And Rachel said she loved that 
he associated his father and 

552
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,320
brought that to his character. 
And she had tried to write 

553
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,440
Shane's autism without 
explicitly saying it in the book

554
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,960
because she doesn't think Shane 
as a character is a way of it or

555
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:45,800
would be looking into it that 
heavily. 

556
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,600
Hudson and Jacob both were able 
to identify that Shane was 

557
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,840
autistic right away. 
For Jacob, he said, autism is 

558
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,400
such a blanket term and it 
covers so many different 

559
00:30:55,400 --> 00:31:00,400
behaviors and can manifest in so
many different ways that Shane 

560
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,000
is just Shane. 
For him, writing Shane and 

561
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,760
capturing Shane was less about 
having the autism drive the 

562
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,800
character and more about 
understanding Shane as a person 

563
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,800
and how he would react or behave
in certain environments. 

564
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,000
Jacob also included this little 
tidbit about Ilya loving to 

565
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,080
tease Shane because it rattles 
him so much and that he really 

566
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,200
enjoyed that it was cute and 
funny and flirty. 

567
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,960
And so he leaned into that. 
Ilya identifying Shane's 

568
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,720
behaviors as a human and playing
into them because he finds it 

569
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,800
cute and funny and flirty and so
again, it de emphasizes the 

570
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,160
autism. 
It doesn't make it less 

571
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,600
important, but it also just 
makes Shane feel like a fully 

572
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:43,440
realized person that is existing
with his own unique traits just 

573
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,800
like everybody else is. 
In the show, Rachel, Hudson, and

574
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,600
Connor had all talked about when
they think Shane and Ilya fell 

575
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,800
in love. 
And one of my favorite parts of 

576
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,560
this conversation was Jacob 
saying that he thinks they fell 

577
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,360
in love immediately and just 
didn't know it because they are 

578
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,000
obsessed with each other from 
the jump. 

579
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,120
That much to him is obvious 
right away because they're never

580
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:04,680
not thinking about the other 
person. 

581
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,280
And so Jacob feels like they 
loved each other instantly. 

582
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,280
I really loved that reflection 
because I think that that's so 

583
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,840
true. 
And Hudson in particular has 

584
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,480
said that he had played Shane as
though he was in love with Ilya 

585
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,560
from the beginning. 
And I think that that's really 

586
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,080
beautiful because two things can
be true, right? 

587
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,200
You can. 
You can be in love with someone 

588
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,720
and not internally be able to 
label it as that, but your body 

589
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,200
is reacting in a way that your 
brain hasn't caught up with yet.

590
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,640
And I think that that really 
encapsulates what I feel these 

591
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,480
characters went through. 
There was just this pull between

592
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:39,960
them that they didn't 
understand. 

593
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,680
And you can look back on it when
you, you know, have had the 

594
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,000
conversation and now know you're
in love and look at it and say, 

595
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,200
yeah, I think that's what it was
back then For Jacob. 

596
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,800
He felt that because of how 
Rachel wrote the characters and 

597
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,880
how Connor and Hudson are as 
actors, he made a point to not 

598
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,680
talk about it or tell them when 
he thought that they would fall 

599
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:02,880
in love or make it obvious in 
the show. 

600
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,960
Because to him, he quite frankly
didn't care when they decided to

601
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:07,600
label it. 
It was more like this 

602
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,480
overarching emotion that they 
both felt from the jump. 

603
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,520
So for him, it could be any 
moment and none of it changes 

604
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:15,880
that. 
Their connection was instant 

605
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,000
from the beginning. 
And I think that's really cool 

606
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,640
because as a viewer, it's fun to
think about. 

607
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,960
OK, When was the moment that 
they actually fell in love? 

608
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,600
And everyone can have a 
different answer to that. 

609
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,640
And I know in the book, there's 
a moment when Shane internally, 

610
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,920
in his head, admits to himself 
that he's in love with Ilya. 

611
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,320
But from the very first chapter 
of the book, he's having these 

612
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,800
thoughts about what is this? 
How do I identify this feeling? 

613
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,440
And so it's just fun to think 
that there's no actual concrete 

614
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,560
time. 
And every person can kind of 

615
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,480
pick a moment where they feel 
like that might be true for them

616
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,760
while reading it as the moment 
they both fell. 

617
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:53,240
I don't know. 
I think that makes it more 

618
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,480
interactive as a viewer as well.
Piggybacking off that, Jacob 

619
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,400
said he didn't strategically 
make the show be almost like a 

620
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,840
situation where they were 
rewarded for paying attention. 

621
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,560
He more so knew that the things 
that he was talking about in the

622
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:13,719
characters in the show are 
mainly behavioral, and so they 

623
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,840
both avoid vulnerability. 
Their behavior is the way that 

624
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,480
they tell the story and how 
they're feeling. 

625
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,760
And so naturally, as you're 
watching that, you have to pay 

626
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,040
attention. 
And so he simply made the best 

627
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,120
show he could make. 
And that meant not assuming that

628
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,920
the audience is stupid. 
And I think the reception of 

629
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,080
that storytelling tactic has 
been so well received that I 

630
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:36,639
hope more people pay attention 
to that. 

631
00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:40,920
Because storytelling, yes, is 
largely dependent on dialogue. 

632
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,679
And that will always be true. 
But I think that most of the 

633
00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:48,920
time when you're dealing with a 
real life situation, you can 

634
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,360
infer so much from other 
people's body language. 

635
00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:56,880
And shows have started just kind
of shy away from relying on that

636
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,880
as a vehicle to tell a story. 
And Jacob leaned into it fully. 

637
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,160
And I think that that's going to
start a little bit of a revival 

638
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,720
in that kind of storytelling. 
Hopefully they started to talk 

639
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:11,240
about Ilya and his perception 
levels. 

640
00:35:11,720 --> 00:35:16,360
Jacob and Rachel both think that
he is extremely perceptive and 

641
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:20,640
observant about everyone, and so
naturally he's going to notice 

642
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,080
queer people as well. 
That's kind of used as a comedic

643
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:26,560
beat throughout all of these 
books. 

644
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,280
But Jacob really hammered home 
that at the core of everything, 

645
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,000
Ilia is an empath. 
And so he clocks things in 

646
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,720
people, yes, But a perfect 
example for him is that in Ryan,

647
00:35:36,720 --> 00:35:39,800
it's not so much about his 
queerness and that he's gay. 

648
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,760
It's more that Ryan is 
struggling with his mental 

649
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,600
health. 
And so when he identifies that 

650
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,880
Ryan is not happy playing 
hockey, he tells him that he 

651
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,880
should get out of it for Jacob. 
Ryan's crisis is his mental 

652
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,880
health, not his sexuality, and 
Ilia is simply clocking that for

653
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,680
that person who is struggling 
with that. 

654
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,440
He can be helpful to him in some
way. 

655
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,520
And Rachel also doubled down on 
that by saying that when Ilia 

656
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,000
showed up at Scott Hunter night,
it's because he knows Scott 

657
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,800
needs support and he wanted to 
be better than the other guys in

658
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:13,680
the league by being there to 
support him. 

659
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,520
It's not entirely dependent upon
the fact that Scott is gay. 

660
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,680
And I think that's really 
important going into Season 2 

661
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:25,760
because there's going to be more
examples of that and also more 

662
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,640
interactions with Troy. 
And I think most people are 

663
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,360
going to sort of expect that the
thing that binds Ilya and Troy 

664
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,760
as their shared secrets about 
their sexuality. 

665
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:41,240
But in reality, he identifies 
Troy's drinking problem and his 

666
00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:44,360
relationship with his dad 1st, 
and I think people forget that. 

667
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,120
I'm looking forward to Jacob 
leaning into that. 

668
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,400
Jacob also noted that one of his
favorite lines in the long game 

669
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,840
is when Scott says that he wants
to join Shane and Ilya's camp, 

670
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:55,560
and Ilya says we already have a 
boring guy. 

671
00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:58,760
I think that it's safe to assume
that a lot of the original 

672
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,600
dialogue is going to find its 
way into the show, because most 

673
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:03,920
of it did in season 1. 
And Rachel pointed out how much 

674
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,680
she really appreciated that he 
used so much of it. 

675
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,320
And that a lot of people's 
favorite lines are sort of a 

676
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,000
combination between her writing 
and Jacob's writing. 

677
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,680
The two of them, I think having 
that shared sense of humor 

678
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,720
really shines there because it 
it doesn't feel like when you're

679
00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:22,680
listening to this show or 
watching how people converse 

680
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,640
that you can identify what is 
Rachel's writing versus Jacobs. 

681
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,680
They just blend so seamlessly 
together. 

682
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,680
For Rachel, she said she really 
strives to sound natural in 

683
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,600
dialogue. 
I think that that's very true, 

684
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,200
and I think Jacob does a 
wonderful job with that as well.

685
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,400
There are a few lines that he 
did change for the show, and I 

686
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,360
think that that's pretty common,
especially when you're reading 

687
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,880
something in your head it it's 
different than when it's being 

688
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,920
audibly said out loud. 
Sometimes a sentence can feel 

689
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,400
clunky coming out of somebody's 
mouth or it's hard for them to 

690
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,040
say on the day. 
And so those changes are 

691
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,800
necessary, but I never felt like
there were any that really took 

692
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:00,080
away from the storytelling at 
all. 

693
00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:02,840
Rachel also said that her 
favorite adapted scene was the 

694
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,160
bathroom scene in Vegas, 
something she has said multiple 

695
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,280
times. 
And it's because he took that 

696
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,080
scene, which originally was kind
of just a setup for a sex scene,

697
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,000
and he turned it into something 
that just had so much more 

698
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,920
emotion and she described as an 
incredible piece of art. 

699
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,760
And again, I'm I'm so curious to
see which scenes he takes from 

700
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,920
the long game or role model and 
does the same sort of 

701
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,880
transformation with, because I 
think he has so much room to 

702
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,200
play in that sandbox of those 
stories and pull something 

703
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,560
really beautiful out of it. 
And that's also when he started 

704
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,000
talking about his Co writer 
Mike, who is an old friend of 

705
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,840
his. 
And that is helping write the 

706
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,320
screenplay and the scripts for 
this show for season 2. 

707
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,240
A lot of that is because of the 
time frame getting crunched the 

708
00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:49,000
way did for them to turn the 
show around. 

709
00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:53,520
But Jacob pointed out that Mike 
loves the show, loves the books,

710
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,840
is coming into the writing with 
the same enthusiasm and energy 

711
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:01,560
as Jacob, and because the long 
game is so long, it's going to 

712
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,440
feel different inherently from 
Season 1. 

713
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,280
It also is covering different 
topics. 

714
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,280
It's gonna be challenging 
because this is a more serious 

715
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,160
stage of a real relationship 
that they have to cover and 

716
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,040
discuss. 
And Jacob said that there's more

717
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:22,000
danger and adolescent topics in 
heated rivalry because so much 

718
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,080
of what they're going through is
the first time they're ever 

719
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,960
experiencing these things. 
And that's kind of gone now. 

720
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,440
They're they're really settling 
into what it looks like to be a 

721
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:36,160
couple in a relationship that is
serious and adult and the stakes

722
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,440
are different. 
And he described The Long Game 

723
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,680
as a very emotionally 
sophisticated book. 

724
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:46,000
So that excites me because it is
going to treat it as such. 

725
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,520
If he's if he's defining the 
book as emotionally 

726
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,320
sophisticated, I think that 
we're going to get emotionally 

727
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,120
sophisticated writing. 
I think for him too, the fact 

728
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:59,040
that role model is happening in 
tandem with the events of the 

729
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,240
long game means that the way 
he's writing those characters in

730
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:06,560
is different than doing a stand 
alone in episode 3 where they, 

731
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,440
you know, go back in time and 
and kind of isolate the Scott 

732
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,320
and Kipp story. 
This is different. 

733
00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:15,200
So even though Shane and Ilya 
are always going to be the heart

734
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:19,320
and center and soul of the show,
he pointed out that as their 

735
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,480
world expands. 
You know, they're going to 

736
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,360
remain central to it all, but he
does have to include people in a

737
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,880
different way than, you know, a 
standalone episode like Episode 

738
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,840
3 in Season 1. 
So I, I'm curious if that means 

739
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,280
we're going to get AB plot. 
I really don't think we are. 

740
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,800
But that's going to be 
interesting because if we do 

741
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,720
start getting B plots, that will
change the feel and tone of the 

742
00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:43,320
show. 
Jacob said that his favorite 

743
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,040
scene in the long game is their 
big fight at Christmas. 

744
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,360
Because it's so smart. 
So I really kind of am starting 

745
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,600
to think that maybe that will 
have a good portion of a full 

746
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,920
episode to cover that. 
He also said that having to live

747
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,200
in a relationship where they are
still not communicating properly

748
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,720
despite loving each other so 
much is such a universally human

749
00:41:03,720 --> 00:41:08,040
concept, and that knowing a 
successful relationship requires

750
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,120
more than just loving each other
is something that he's so 

751
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,400
excited to showcase and dive 
further into. 

752
00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:18,160
And I, I really do start to 
wonder if he's going to dedicate

753
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,000
a whole episode covering that 
moment between the two of them 

754
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,640
because I think he easily could 
and it's going to hit home with 

755
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,400
so many people. 
He also noted that Rachel's 

756
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,880
writing is, for him, a cut above
typical romance books because 

757
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,200
they're discussing a real 
relationship and grounding it in

758
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,240
reality. 
He used Troy and Harris as an 

759
00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:40,600
example of that because on the 
surface, the trope for them is 

760
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,640
grumpy sunshine. 
But to Jacob, Troy is written as

761
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:48,320
a deeply damaged character that 
he's excited to dig further into

762
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,160
in the show because to him, 
that's more interesting than 

763
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,680
this sort of surface level 
grumpy sunshine. 

764
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,080
The books for him, he finds, are
really fertile ground for him to

765
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,520
expand upon, and I think he's 
going to write some really 

766
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,160
beautiful original scenes and 
dialogue for Troy in particular.

767
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,280
He seems to have a very special 
spot in his heart for him, and I

768
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,320
do too, so I'm looking forward 
to that. 

769
00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:15,280
They asked Rachel where Troy and
Harris would be 10 years from 

770
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:19,320
now and she said that she's 
going to expand upon them a lot 

771
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,960
in Unrivalled, but that book 
doesn't take place 10 years 

772
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,440
later and she felt like their 
ending was kind of abrupt in 

773
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,440
their book because she knew that
the lawn game was coming. 

774
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,560
So she does plan to expand upon 
what happens with them and 

775
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,800
Unrivaled, which is exciting. 
They also talked about all of 

776
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,080
the awards and recognition that 
the show's been getting. 

777
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:41,720
They asked Jacob and Rachel what
genre of books they enjoy 

778
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,360
reading and Jacob pointed out 
that he's going to be doing a 

779
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,400
show about Alexander the Great 
and covering the book The Golden

780
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,120
Mean. 
Rachel said she reads 

781
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,920
everything, but when she's 
writing, she tries to read 

782
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:55,880
something outside of the romance
genre. 

783
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,880
So a lot of sci-fi and 
historical fiction and and Jacob

784
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:03,200
recommended a book called Human 
Acts which I am going to add to 

785
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,680
my reading list because it 
sounds fascinating. 

786
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:11,800
Then they talked about Hudsons 
question and I really loved the 

787
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,520
conversation about this because 
Jacob answered it really 

788
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,360
interestingly by saying there 
are three stages of creation 

789
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,520
which includes writing, shooting
and cutting and you have to let 

790
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,000
the light in for all three 
stages. 

791
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:28,240
For him, a script is a script, 
but it's not proper until it's 

792
00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:31,400
read and reacted to. 
And I loved how he described it 

793
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,480
as the plans for a building but 
not the building itself. 

794
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,680
And then when you shoot, he is 
so open to there being surprises

795
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,960
from the actors or production 
where, you know, they might not 

796
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,560
be able to shoot at a certain 
location and they have to pivot.

797
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:50,320
And so then that offers a unique
change to the story. 

798
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,320
And then the editing is the same
thing. 

799
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,840
So by the time you get to the 
end, all these different huge 

800
00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:00,000
things can happen at every 
single stage that influence how 

801
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,000
a project turns out at the 
ending versus what you planned 

802
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,520
for at the beginning. 
And for him, the emphasis is on 

803
00:44:07,240 --> 00:44:10,440
staying open and allowing 
surprises and be willing to 

804
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,600
change and find the best product
at the end. 

805
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,360
And that part of that approach 
is that he doesn't shoot a lot. 

806
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,880
So for Season 1, there wasn't a 
lot of extra footage. 

807
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,400
And he pointed out that there 
will be a blooper reel, but he 

808
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,840
doesn't think it's that funny. 
So I'm excited that we're going 

809
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,400
to see that at some point. 
They ended talking about how 

810
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,680
much change in both their lives 
there's been since the show came

811
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,040
out. 
Rachel pointed out that authors 

812
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,160
aren't usually recognized, so 
she's still surprised and 

813
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,680
weirded out by that at times. 
But it's wonderful. 

814
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,920
Interestingly, she sat on a 
small scale before this. 

815
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,560
She didn't tell many people what
she wrote about or that she was 

816
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,080
a writer, and now everybody 
knows that she wrote Heated 

817
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,480
Rivalry and she finally doesn't 
feel weird or embarrassed about 

818
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,320
that anymore, which I think is 
such a beautiful sort of side 

819
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,320
effect of all of this happening 
for her. 

820
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:03,160
Jacob said that even though it's
not even been since six months 

821
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:06,240
since the show aired, their 
lives have all changed so 

822
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:10,080
drastically and they created 
something they had hoped would 

823
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,920
be a hit, but could have never 
predicted that this type of 

824
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,600
reaction would happen to it. 
Because it doesn't happen. 

825
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,640
And I think that that's so true 
and important to point out that 

826
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:22,680
it surprised everybody involved 
because this is so rare. 

827
00:45:22,720 --> 00:45:26,920
Jacob had always felt like if he
could get 10% of the readers of 

828
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,000
the book books to be as 
passionate about the show as 

829
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,760
they are about the book series, 
that they would be the people 

830
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,960
that really catapulted it to a 
new level. 

831
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:38,960
And they were. 
So I think that's really 

832
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,680
wonderful that they gave props 
to the people who read the books

833
00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:45,320
and sort of created the platform
in the 1st place. 

834
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,680
They also asked if the pressure 
and attention has changed how 

835
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,440
Rachel is approaching writing 
her next book. 

836
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,320
And she said that the biggest 
thing for her is that she 

837
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,800
doesn't have as much time, 
especially now that she's 

838
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,280
promoted and traveling and 
talking on panels. 

839
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,760
At this point in time, she's in 
a place where the whole world 

840
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:04,920
cares about what happens, and 
that's something that she's 

841
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,720
never written from before. 
But I think it's really nice 

842
00:46:08,720 --> 00:46:11,760
that her emphasis is on sticking
to what she's always done, which

843
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,680
is to write for herself and then
just hope that people like it. 

844
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,640
And I think that that's really a
beautiful message to end the 

845
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:21,680
conversation on because if you 
are an artist in any way, I 

846
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,400
think that's such an important 
thing to remember is that the 

847
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,120
first person you have to make 
art for is yourself. 

848
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:31,560
And if people like it or don't 
like it, you have to live with 

849
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,320
the result. 
And so doing things for yourself

850
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,320
is really important. 
Lastly, I think it's really 

851
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:41,520
important to point out just how 
great of a job Versha did 

852
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:44,200
moderating this panel and 
conversation. 

853
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,360
And I felt like the way that she
chose to end it was just such a 

854
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,760
beautiful message that really 
encapsulates a lot of what I 

855
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,800
think this show has achieved in 
its own right and is. 

856
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:58,080
Aiming to achieve. 
Globally, I think if you haven't

857
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:02,080
watched the video on YouTube, it
would really be of a great 

858
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,080
benefit to you to go through and
read some of the comments in 

859
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,960
there, because there's a lot of 
really interesting ones. 

860
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:14,080
And I think highlighting the 
very recent news about Russian 

861
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:18,120
media getting fined for 
publishing a review on the show 

862
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,960
is just bringing up, again, how 
no matter where you are in the 

863
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,320
world, these topics are still 
very relevant. 

864
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:29,280
And this discussion is ongoing 
and very important. 

865
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:34,760
And I think that the impact of 
this show is obviously a 

866
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:39,640
personal thing for everybody who
partakes in reading the books or

867
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,160
watching the TV show. 
But it's also important to 

868
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,440
recognize that it has a global 
impact and that in different 

869
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:47,920
parts of the world and in 
different communities that we 

870
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,360
all live amongst and within, it 
will have a different meaning. 

871
00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:54,760
And the important thing is that 
it's getting conversations 

872
00:47:54,760 --> 00:48:00,080
started and it is injecting 
media into the world that we 

873
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,600
need to see. 
And Versa said it really 

874
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:07,480
beautifully when she said that 
these the universe is the world 

875
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,760
as it should be. 
And it's a very aspirational 

876
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,440
viewpoint that we are putting 
out into the world. 

877
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,240
And it made me think about how 
Schitt's Creek did the same 

878
00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:18,160
thing back when it was coming 
out. 

879
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,360
And again, that's another 
Canadian production. 

880
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:25,400
They really tried to tell the 
story that that showed the world

881
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:30,360
as they wish it was in reality. 
And portray things in the way 

882
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,440
that they hoped that it would 
be, you know, really happening 

883
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:36,680
in the world and, and create an 
environment that was 

884
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,640
aspirational. 
If we want our world to change, 

885
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:45,880
we need to show everybody what 
that looks like and have a goal 

886
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,160
in mind that we're all, you 
know, rowing towards together, 

887
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:50,600
steering the ship towards 
together. 

888
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:55,800
One of the more understated 
messages for me of this show is 

889
00:48:55,800 --> 00:49:00,120
that we don't know what other 
people are going through. 99% of

890
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,240
the time. 
A lot of us keep most of our 

891
00:49:02,240 --> 00:49:05,520
feelings internally and and 
don't always share them. 

892
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:10,320
And for people to be curious 
about one another and care 

893
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,240
genuinely about how another 
person feels and what they're 

894
00:49:13,240 --> 00:49:17,160
going through, it only benefits 
everybody, and that's something 

895
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:19,480
that I think we can all strive 
towards. 

896
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,640
That wraps up. 
My coverage of Book Con and this

897
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:28,760
really beautiful conversation, I
felt the 57 minutes flew by. 

898
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,720
It was so easy to watch and I'm 
so glad that they put it onto 

899
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:35,480
YouTube so that everyone who 
couldn't be in attendance at the

900
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:39,120
actual event was able to listen 
in and hear the really 

901
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,280
insightful. 
Responses from both Jacob and 

902
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,760
Rachel. 
As always, thank you so much for

903
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,120
listening and getting this far 
into the podcast episode and for

904
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:49,560
sticking around and hanging out 
with me. 

905
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,440
And I will talk to you all in 
our next chat.