Hi and welcome to K Let's Talk, the podcast where we breakdown
storytelling across books, television and film with a
special love for book to screen adaptations.
Here we talk about craft, character arcs, structure,
dialogue, visual language, and the creative choices that shape
how a story lands. If you like thoughtful,
conversational, deep dives into the stories you can't stop
thinking about, you're in the right place.
Let's talk. Hello everyone, and welcome back
to the podcast. I am excited because today's
episode, I'm going to be talking all about the book con interview
that Jacob Tierney and Rachel Reid gave in New York City and
my commentary on it. I listened to the YouTube
presentation that they very kindly put online for everyone
who could not attend and took some notes about what they
talked about in regards to making the show, writing the
book unrivaled, and also what they talked about in regards to
season 2. Because I think everybody is
anxiously awaiting any news regarding Season 2, myself
included some speculation about what we can expect, and Jacob
had a few interesting tidbits that I wanted to elaborate upon
and open up a discussion about. So if you are interested in
chatting about any of these topics in the comments, please
feel free to leave a comment. I always love hearing people
chime in and give their two cents on season 2.
What we can expect, the writing for the show, how they might
film certain things, and speculating is fun as we wait
for the second season to come out.
I thought that the answers and responses during the
conversation were really fascinating and insightful, and
I really enjoyed it. So that's what we're going to
talk about today because I wanted to.
So interestingly, this is Jacob and Rachel's first public
conversation since the show aired, which I think is crazy.
I don't know about everybody else, but it's almost like time
feels like a construct to me. Since the show aired in
November. I both can't believe it's been
that long, and it feels like it came out yesterday to me.
So the fact that this is their first public conversation since
November when the show came out is crazy.
And I'm happy that they were able to do that because I feel
like it's very rare or hopefully it's going to become less rare.
I should I should say that an author has this much
participation in the launch of the show and also visibility
because of the show. I think it's really special that
Rachel has been looped into so many of these conversations
about the show and that Jacob and her clearly have a very good
friendship between the two of them where they're collaborative
with one another constantly. And we can see that the two of
them are continuing that relationship as Jacob is writing
for season 2 and Rachel is writing the next book in the
series. And I think that's really
special that the two of them are able to kind of go through this
craziness in tandem with one another and enjoy it together.
And most of the time, I think the author in a situation like
this is very much in the background.
Most of the hype and conversation is around the
actors and the people involved in the TV show.
Since the visual is AI think easier for a lot of people to
grab on to. Whereas reading a book it's more
time consuming and not everybody's going to envision
everything the same. So there's less, I would argue,
conversation about a book out in the open versus a show where you
can talk about gifts and people can do screen grabs and you can
rewatch clips of scenes. It's just easier for a show to
go viral versus text in a book. But Rachel has been riding this
wave as well, and a lot of her commentary, I think, kind of
echoes that in this conversation that she had.
And she had said that the two of them have read the books
probably 6 or 7 times each. I would imagine as Jacob is
writing scripts, he's continuing to read over them quite heavily
just to make sure he's pulling things out of the source
material that he wants to keep true to the source material.
But they also talked about how they consult with one another
about timeline discrepancies and when things happen and how
things happen. And they refer to the book quite
often or correct each other when they're trying to make sure that
there's continuity going on in both mediums that they're
writing in. So I think that's really cool.
Rachel also was really excited when they talked about the new
book that Jacob is releasing in October that will include
scripts and never before seen photographs and annotations from
his writing. And she's been saying all the
way through the promotional period that the scripts were
really awesome for her to read and she was deeply invested in
the story being told by Jacob once she was able to get her
hands on them. And all the actors involved said
the same thing, that when they were auditioning, they noticed
that the script was really special.
And so for people who are a fan of reading scripts and
screenplays, I think that that book is going to be really
great. I'm sure people will buy it
strictly just to look at the photographs and everything, but
I'm really curious about the annotations as well and the
ability to compare how it was written in the script versus how
the actors shot it. And we can hopefully kind of
pinpoint some of those creative decisions that Jacob was
referring to in this conversation later on.
It's actually a question that Hudson Williams had posed to him
about how much the story can change from the script to
shooting it to editing it, and what the final product is in
comparison to where all the people involved in the show are
basing it off of in the original script.
So I'm really excited about that.
I'll I'll probably be pre ordering that book and I think
it'll be another great opportunity for people who are
interested in storytelling in this fashion to break it down
and see how he works and how he writes and then also how
everybody interpreted it. On the day.
Rachel talked about how she knew she had wanted to be a writer
since she was a little kid, but she didn't think that that was
going to happen and she started writing when her kids were
young. It's crazy to think about that.
I think it's a great message to send to people who are aspiring
authors. I'm one of those people.
I'm still working on writing my first novel and it's a labor of
love and it's very time consuming.
And you question yourself so many times as to whether or not
you even have that innate ability to write a good story
within you. And I think that her message
about just doing it because she wanted to and for the love of it
is really inspiring. And you never know where it
could lead. And her life has been completely
changed by her taking the time to put pen to paper or, you
know, type out on her computer and build upon an idea that she
had in her head. And originally, Game Changer was
supposed to be a standalone, and then she had a separate idea for
Heated Rivalry. Her pointing out that her
publisher is the one that suggested the book be written as
a series is really important. Because I think that, again,
reminds everybody, if you're looking to get into writing,
that it's very collaborative initially.
It can be very isolating when you're writing alone, but
eventually if you let people in to read it or have ARC readers
involve publishers, it can become way more collaborative in
that way. And I think that's really cool
that she touched upon it too. And I also liked that she talked
about how when she started to write Tough Guy, that's when she
realized that this series could just keep going as Ilia made
more and more appearances. She knew that his character was
really, really powerful and could easily take over a scene
or an entire book if she wasn't careful.
And I think that that's so true. You can tell that in Role Model
in particular, I find that the moments where Ilya pops up are
very much a highlight and it does sort of take over the
story. You want more of him.
He's just that alluring of a character.
And then she also talked about Role Model and how that was her
best opportunity to use Ilya a lot for the first time in a book
outside of his own. Role Model, I would say after
Heated Rivalry and The Long Game is my next favorite book in the
series, probably for that reason.
But I also think Troy and Harris are particularly.
Troy is a really well written, constructed character and I
can't wait for Jacob to get his hands on him because he
mentioned in this conversation that he's really going to dive
further into Troy. That's something that I
genuinely am really excited to see in season 2.
Jacob also pointed out that Rachel's humor and her wit is
very evident in the way she writes.
Ilya, his character is definitely a a conduit for her
to showcase her humor. Jacob pointed out that he's very
partial to humor in his own work.
He'll never cut a joke for a show if the actors can make him
laugh. And I think that Ilya in season
1, he did have a few comical moments.
I'm really starting to think that Jacob's going to lean
heavily into him having more, especially since he's going to
be interacting with other characters more often in Season
2. So we'll have plenty of
opportunities for him to be joking with Hayden and also with
Harris, and also with Troy, obviously, and then naturally
with Shane. So I think that will be fun
because Ilia in particular is going to have such a wide array
of emotions to go through and cover, and his behaviors are
going to be so widely spread. He can be hilarious, and he's
also going to be deeply, deeply depressed.
So there's going to be lots for Connor's story in particular to
dive into by way of his character, too.
They also covered again how Jacob followed Rachel back in
2023, sent her Adm and she had just found out about her own
diagnosis with her health and the two of them had a Zoom call
shortly after the DMS. Jacob points out that he was actually
shooting another project at the time, and he had read an article
about hockey romance as a genre and was worried that someone
else would option Rachelle books.
So he jumped on the opportunity as quickly as he could, and
Rachel almost immediately could tell that Jacob's passion for
the story was there and he really wanted to take it
seriously and make it come to life in the way that I think
Rachel had always hoped that it would be.
So she never had any hesitation about letting him be the one to
spearhead this project, nor did she say she felt like she had
any hesitation about it actually coming to fruition.
And what I really love to hear Jacob say is that it was insane
to him how quickly this show actually came to be.
He said it happened within three years time.
That's really, really rare. I don't think people, if you're
not familiar with the industry, understand just how long it can
take for a project to get off the ground.
And Jacob pointing that out, I think is really important,
especially as people start to get impatient about the turn
around time for them to film and shoot and write Season 2.
This is very breakneck pace. And Jacob pointed out that all
throughout the process with everybody involved, which is
hundreds and hundreds of people, instead of things getting slowed
down, everyone involved actually speed it up.
And it really reinforces to me just how much of the lightning
in a bottle the creation of this show is on top of just the magic
of the show itself. The fact that it got made in
this fashion and that everyone involved speed up the timeline
for it, even moved up the premiere date is just crazy.
It it doesn't happen that way. He says that everything about
the way the show was made made the creators feel like they were
playing catch up, given the speed of things.
And we know that to be true because they were still editing
the show all the way up until it aired.
And Jacob was saying that episode 6 was only completed 11
days before it aired on HBO. So again, I I think this is a
given, but the fact that we're going to have it filmed, Season
2 filmed this summer is also insane because Jacob had to
write an entire script prior to being able to even schedule
things and get these people who are involved in the show onto a
schedule. It's so insane that we're
getting the turn around this quickly.
And I think that everybody is so used to things being instant and
the turn around time shrinking and shrinking and shrinking that
they forget that good quality things take time.
And yes, we're going to get a product very quickly
considering, but we should be thankful for that because it's
very, very rare. Rachel also said that she saw
rough cuts of the show back in September, October.
And again, the show premiered in November.
So that's insane. The show was picture locked in
late September, which means that there's no VFX, music, anything
added to it but the frame by frame and scene by scene, that's
all finalized. And the show was sold in
mid-october to HBO and then it premiered in November, which is
crazy because originally it was supposed to air in February in
tandem with the Winter Olympics. And I think that if they did
roll it out in that timeline, the reception would have been
very different because everyone was home for the holidays and
everybody was absolutely obsessed going into Christmas
time watching the slow drip release on HBO.
Which again, I think is brilliant because having the
show air 1 episode at a time means that all of us
collectively could converse about what happened in that
episode for seven days before the next one dropped.
And that gets conversation and buzz going around a show or what
it's worth. HBO's model has been successful.
I think the best example of that was back when Game of Thrones
was in its heyday and how everyone was talking about the
episode the entire week in between the drops.
And that creates a buzz that you can't replicate in many other
ways now with streaming services.
Jacob pointed out too, that HBO didn't really even know what
they bought because the product they saw was so raw and
unfinished, but they had such faith in the product that they
didn't care. And I think that again, it's
just really, really incredible to hear that the show was was
made in this way because it doesn't happen that way anymore
with streaming products and, and shows like this.
They also had a few questions from fans and the first one was
from Connor, who had sent a voice note with a question to
ask them. He sent 2.
So the first one for Jacob was what was it about Rachel's
writing and storytelling that made it easy for him to connect
and then execute, making ATV show out of it?
And for Rachel, he asked what it was about Jacob that was
successful at bringing the story off the page and building it out
into a physical world. I think the answers are are
pretty much covered in multiple interviews that the two of them
have given. But they reiterated again,
Rachel knew that Jacob was an excellent filmmaker.
He's also very funny. I think the two of them have
their humor in common, and so I think she trusted that the way
she wrote the humor in these books was going to get
translated properly and included in the story.
But she said that in their Zoom call, it was clear to her how
much he understood the characters, and that he wanted
to tell a story that leaned heavily into the source material
and didn't water down the text at all.
Because this is, after all, a smutty book, and he didn't want
to shy away from that. He wanted to lean into it.
And he also made it clear that the goal of everything was to
celebrate queer joy, which meant a lot to her.
So she never was worried about her characters being in Jacob's
care. And then again, when she read
the scripts, they were amazing. So she knew that no matter what
he turned out, the writing was there, the solid writing was
there, and all he had to do was find the right people to be the
characters. And as we know, they certainly
did. Jacob said he knew he loved the
books and he wanted to cover a story about queer joy, but also
he joked that he wanted to make something horny.
He pointed out that for him, he doesn't understand how recently
in art sex is divorced from the art, or that the current trend
right now is for the sex that we do see on screen to often be
violent or unpleasant or non consensual.
And for him, that doesn't make him feel joy.
He really wanted to revive that conversation about how sex can
be joyful, particularly queer love and sex.
And he also loved that heated rivalry used sex to tell the
story. He could tell that it was the
architect of this relationship that took place over the course
of ten years, and it's when the characters are there, most
honest and vulnerable. He said that as he's writing
season 2, he knows that the overarching theme of Shane and
Ilya's story is the emotion between the two of them, and the
traditional storytelling. Beats still matter, of course,
and he uses them. But to him, it's not as
important as the feelings that you're left with as a viewer or
a reader when you're thinking about their relationship in
general. Loved his conversation.
About how? The story of Heated Rivalry was
written in a way where it's almost as though we are reading
the characters memories of these very specific moments in their
lives and these huge events. And I, I kind of felt that way
when I read it the first time too.
But it's especially clear in the show because we spend every
scene with one or both of these characters and it's it's
basically taking the largest moment in that day of their life
and highlighting it. So these huge life events are
told through Shane or Ilya and what they were doing both
separately or together. And every single time it
revolves around the other person.
So their memories of each other and with each other are what is
used to convey their story. And the sex is about a powerful
part of that. And Jacob had promised Rachel
that he would take that seriously because romance is
often watered down or dulled down.
And he really wanted to make an effort to dig deeper into what
Rachel had created because underneath the fluff, there are
two very real and understandable characters in Shane and Ilya.
And he also pointed out later on that Troy falls under that camp
too, and he wanted to dig deeper into them.
And I think that that's evidenced by how he included
more scenes that were original to the story and built out the
world in a very realistic way that heightens the characters
even further. The next question that they
talked about was when they decided to include just Shane
and Ilya as the the main story of the show and and make it
about heated rivalry and not more of like an overarching
story about each of the books in the series.
And Jacob said simply he liked Shane and Ilia the best.
He discovered the series through those characters.
He knew that they already had their own sequel, so their arc
is bigger than these other ones. And Simply put, their
relationship is the one that has the biggest following in this
book series. And I think that that's fair for
everybody who reads it. They're definitely who the story
is about and everyone else is a supporting character in that in
that overarching storyline. And Rachel confirmed that they
are the stars of the series. Jacob made a point to say no
shade to Troy Barrett, but to me, it's very clear that he
really loves Troy's character. And so again, I'm I'm super
excited and curious to see what he does with him and how he digs
into him further and if he creates more of an original back
story for him. Because in his book, we kind of
jump in at a very specific moment in his life and we get
little hints about what his life was like before we meet him at
that point. And I think Jacob does an
excellent job of building out a back story and including it in
really smart and effective simple scenes that heighten
further behaviors and and big moments that that character goes
through further on. They also asked when Jacob.
Told Rachel that he was going to include Game Changer in the
show, which is referring to the standalone episode 3, and he
said right away and he told her that on his first Zoom call.
So again, this reiterates that he truly had given this so much
thought about how he would have brought these books to life.
And that must be so validating as an author to have someone
come to you with this fully actualized concept and be so
enthusiastic about it. He always knew that Game Changer
was going to be a part of the show because the story of Scott
and Kipp is so necessary for the Episode 5 that he had envisioned
in his head to have the impact he wanted.
And so it was always part of his plan to keep that, and also part
of his plan to keep Rachel involved.
Throughout the the. Whole storytelling process
because he didn't want to surprise her with any of his
decision making, she pointed out.
Rachel pointed out that she also didn't want to interfere with
his process. She chimes in when she's asked,
and for the most part, she trusts Jacob to do his thing and
stays out of it. And again, I think that just
highlights that they have a really healthy working
relationship where they both respect each other's process and
capabilities and talents so much.
And that's really, really rare. I think that it adds to how
successful the show is because if you don't have that trust
between the two of them, I don't know if you have the types of
open conversations the two of them must have had behind the
scenes in order to strengthen the storytelling.
They also talked about how Episode 5 is listed as one of
the highest rated episodes of TV ever, which I think is still
insane. And Jacob was asked how he
chooses the music for his projects and he simply said
there's no method, he just picks songs that he likes.
Interestingly, he compared it to casting actors, where he said
that there are great songs that work for specific moments, but
there are also great songs that don't work as well.
There are songs that he might not like as much, but they
happen to work fantastically in specific moments.
So for him it's all a bit of alchemy.
And he said that the one conscious choice he always
wanted to use was I'll believe in anything in some project.
He didn't say only for heated rivalry.
He said he always wanted to use that song in something.
And it's because he likes how the song builds and swoops and
crests. And I think that's so true
because he uses it in a very particular way in episode 5.
But it is a very long song so he had to write a scene that
accommodates to that. And he said in general, lyrics
for him are tricky because he doesn't want the lyrics to be
too literal and that's why he likes French music so much.
There is a lot of French music in this show that he uses, which
makes sense given the location that they're in.
But I also agree with him that a lot of time instrumentals can be
more effective because they can evoke a feeling without being so
literal about what you're supposed to feel.
And for him, the sunshine lyric in I'll Believe in Anything is a
specific thing that he used to really kind of thread multiple
scenes together, but also, he said, crystallize an emotion or
an idea of the scene. So the payoff of the lighting
being in our eyes as the camera swoops around and knowing that
they both deserve sunshine, and then we hear the words about
that sunshine coming through in the song at this exact moment in
time, it just creates this really emotional build up that
has this huge payoff. And for him, editing and music
are where he can aid in the emotional storytelling.
So if there's a scene that's meant to evoke a certain
emotion, you can add on a song or edit it in a way that really
hammers home what you're supposed to feel or emphasize is
the feeling. So for him, songs are used very
strategically. But he also was pretty candid in
saying that he has to like the song, and he also has to be able
to afford the song because songs are very expensive to add to
projects like this. And the other important thing
for him is that he doesn't want lyrics to be too on the nose.
So I think that if you go over the soundtrack for the series,
you can kind of identify which songs are used in those
strategic ways. I think the fact that he does
montages so well is huge because, again, would they be as
effective if the song was different?
You want to think about that when you're putting the edit
together. And that's all stuff that takes
a lot of foresight, but also talent to be able to, in your
head, pull together a soundtrack like that.
And he also said he listens to a lot of music while he's writing,
and then that kind of naturally feeds its way into the
storytelling too. So I find that fascinating,
especially as someone who typically tends to write to
orchestral or instrumental soundtrack music.
And he also was listening to Peter Peter when he was writing,
and that's who was the composer on this project.
So it's all very looped in and and very nicely pulled together
in that way. They asked Rachel how she felt
about seeing the kiss on the ice in Episode 5, and then also
Shane and Ilya reacting to it. And she said that when she wrote
the Scott and Kipp kiss, she always felt it would be so great
to see it filmed and brought to life.
But the way that Jacob cut it and edited it was truly the best
thing for her to see. And she knew when she watched
the rough cut of that episode that it was incredible.
So she wasn't surprised that it was everybody's favorite
episode. And again, knowing just how long
Jacob had planned and that particular scene in his head and
then that that's one of the things he's most proud of and
all the work he's done, it just makes me so happy to know that
the payoff was there. All that effort and his
creativity was able to shine in the way that he wanted it to.
And now he's being rewarded for that.
So I think that's really cool. Jacob also said he was surprised
by the fan reaction after Episode 1 and 2 because, again,
those were released in tandem with one another.
And it was very intense on his end.
And then he said that again, because it was a weekly drop
after episode 3, the fan reaction became more intense.
He kind of lost a gauge of how to anticipate what the fan
reaction was going to be week after week.
But he knew that episode 5 was coming.
And the end of episode 5 was this huge culmination of work
that he had poured into this project and, and would have this
really big emotional payoff. And I can only imagine what that
would have been like on the back end, knowing what's coming in a
few weeks time and seeing fan reactions and just waiting in
the wings to see how crazy everyone's going to go when they
watch episode 5 and the ending of episode 5 in particular.
And I know for me, I was watching the episode in the
middle of the night and I just had this outer body experience,
really marveling over how well constructed it was.
It was almost like I had to watch it once to appreciate how
it was composed and shot and edited, and then I had to watch
it again to really let myself feel the emotions of the
characters and appreciate the acting in the scene.
It's like both elements of that scene were just so incredibly
well done that they both deserved its own moment to
celebrate the. The work, the work.
Behind the scenes, behind the camera and the work in front of
the camera, it was just incredible.
The two of them also confirmed that Hudson and Connor had read
the books multiple times, and Jacob and Rachel were asked if
they talked to them specifically about the language used in
romance novels. So how often the characters are
described as, you know, their eyes darkened or gazing with
their lips, all those different kind of ways of explaining
little micro expressions that characters can have.
Rachel said she didn't talk to them about the language of
romance novels, but more so talk to them about the genre in
general. And then they deep dived into
the characters themselves. And Jacob interestingly said he
does not talk to his actors about stuff like that.
His notes for them are always on something that they can take and
use in their performance in a very granular way.
And so he really relied heavily on their chemistry that he knew
they had. So he would just tell them, look
at him, and then he would use his camera to convey whatever he
wanted to capture in that scene. So I'll drift the camera down
from your mouth to your eyes, is what he is quoted saying in this
moment. So again, I think that's such a
great insight into how Jacob works and how much he trusts his
actors and how he relies so much on their talents and their
inputs and what they bring to the table and how it can add to
his storytelling and that he doesn't have this vice grip on
what it's going to look like. He makes it very collaborative.
And so he would give them a note, like, look at his mouth,
look at his mouth, follow the water bottle.
And Jacob also trusted that their bodies would react
naturally to those movements. And I think we see that very
effortlessly in the show. It never feels like what they're
doing is choreographed, even though we know that some parts
of it are heavily choreographed. A lot of what people love about
the show are those micro expressions and reactions they
have to one another. And now you know that Jacob was
really relying on their bodies reacting to each other
naturally. And that's so important to hear
when you're watching something because it makes the
performances feel really rooted and realism.
And because of that, he didn't have to give them too many
notes, which I think is very cool.
And we know that they shot this so quickly that he didn't
overextend. He told them what he wanted.
He let them react the way they reacted and he captured what he
captured and then trusted that that magic was going to be there
on the day. And it was.
They talked about conversations regarding Shane being autistic,
Hudson's betrayal of autism, and how he really tried to hone in
on his real life experiences with his own dad to inform some
of his decision making as the character.
And Rachel said she loved that he associated his father and
brought that to his character. And she had tried to write
Shane's autism without explicitly saying it in the book
because she doesn't think Shane as a character is a way of it or
would be looking into it that heavily.
Hudson and Jacob both were able to identify that Shane was
autistic right away. For Jacob, he said, autism is
such a blanket term and it covers so many different
behaviors and can manifest in so many different ways that Shane
is just Shane. For him, writing Shane and
capturing Shane was less about having the autism drive the
character and more about understanding Shane as a person
and how he would react or behave in certain environments.
Jacob also included this little tidbit about Ilya loving to
tease Shane because it rattles him so much and that he really
enjoyed that it was cute and funny and flirty.
And so he leaned into that. Ilya identifying Shane's
behaviors as a human and playing into them because he finds it
cute and funny and flirty and so again, it de emphasizes the
autism. It doesn't make it less
important, but it also just makes Shane feel like a fully
realized person that is existing with his own unique traits just
like everybody else is. In the show, Rachel, Hudson, and
Connor had all talked about when they think Shane and Ilya fell
in love. And one of my favorite parts of
this conversation was Jacob saying that he thinks they fell
in love immediately and just didn't know it because they are
obsessed with each other from the jump.
That much to him is obvious right away because they're never
not thinking about the other person.
And so Jacob feels like they loved each other instantly.
I really loved that reflection because I think that that's so
true. And Hudson in particular has
said that he had played Shane as though he was in love with Ilya
from the beginning. And I think that that's really
beautiful because two things can be true, right?
You can. You can be in love with someone
and not internally be able to label it as that, but your body
is reacting in a way that your brain hasn't caught up with yet.
And I think that that really encapsulates what I feel these
characters went through. There was just this pull between
them that they didn't understand.
And you can look back on it when you, you know, have had the
conversation and now know you're in love and look at it and say,
yeah, I think that's what it was back then For Jacob.
He felt that because of how Rachel wrote the characters and
how Connor and Hudson are as actors, he made a point to not
talk about it or tell them when he thought that they would fall
in love or make it obvious in the show.
Because to him, he quite frankly didn't care when they decided to
label it. It was more like this
overarching emotion that they both felt from the jump.
So for him, it could be any moment and none of it changes
that. Their connection was instant
from the beginning. And I think that's really cool
because as a viewer, it's fun to think about.
OK, When was the moment that they actually fell in love?
And everyone can have a different answer to that.
And I know in the book, there's a moment when Shane internally,
in his head, admits to himself that he's in love with Ilya.
But from the very first chapter of the book, he's having these
thoughts about what is this? How do I identify this feeling?
And so it's just fun to think that there's no actual concrete
time. And every person can kind of
pick a moment where they feel like that might be true for them
while reading it as the moment they both fell.
I don't know. I think that makes it more
interactive as a viewer as well. Piggybacking off that, Jacob
said he didn't strategically make the show be almost like a
situation where they were rewarded for paying attention.
He more so knew that the things that he was talking about in the
characters in the show are mainly behavioral, and so they
both avoid vulnerability. Their behavior is the way that
they tell the story and how they're feeling.
And so naturally, as you're watching that, you have to pay
attention. And so he simply made the best
show he could make. And that meant not assuming that
the audience is stupid. And I think the reception of
that storytelling tactic has been so well received that I
hope more people pay attention to that.
Because storytelling, yes, is largely dependent on dialogue.
And that will always be true. But I think that most of the
time when you're dealing with a real life situation, you can
infer so much from other people's body language.
And shows have started just kind of shy away from relying on that
as a vehicle to tell a story. And Jacob leaned into it fully.
And I think that that's going to start a little bit of a revival
in that kind of storytelling. Hopefully they started to talk
about Ilya and his perception levels.
Jacob and Rachel both think that he is extremely perceptive and
observant about everyone, and so naturally he's going to notice
queer people as well. That's kind of used as a comedic
beat throughout all of these books.
But Jacob really hammered home that at the core of everything,
Ilia is an empath. And so he clocks things in
people, yes, But a perfect example for him is that in Ryan,
it's not so much about his queerness and that he's gay.
It's more that Ryan is struggling with his mental
health. And so when he identifies that
Ryan is not happy playing hockey, he tells him that he
should get out of it for Jacob. Ryan's crisis is his mental
health, not his sexuality, and Ilia is simply clocking that for
that person who is struggling with that.
He can be helpful to him in some way.
And Rachel also doubled down on that by saying that when Ilia
showed up at Scott Hunter night, it's because he knows Scott
needs support and he wanted to be better than the other guys in
the league by being there to support him.
It's not entirely dependent upon the fact that Scott is gay.
And I think that's really important going into Season 2
because there's going to be more examples of that and also more
interactions with Troy. And I think most people are
going to sort of expect that the thing that binds Ilya and Troy
as their shared secrets about their sexuality.
But in reality, he identifies Troy's drinking problem and his
relationship with his dad 1st, and I think people forget that.
I'm looking forward to Jacob leaning into that.
Jacob also noted that one of his favorite lines in the long game
is when Scott says that he wants to join Shane and Ilya's camp,
and Ilya says we already have a boring guy.
I think that it's safe to assume that a lot of the original
dialogue is going to find its way into the show, because most
of it did in season 1. And Rachel pointed out how much
she really appreciated that he used so much of it.
And that a lot of people's favorite lines are sort of a
combination between her writing and Jacob's writing.
The two of them, I think having that shared sense of humor
really shines there because it it doesn't feel like when you're
listening to this show or watching how people converse
that you can identify what is Rachel's writing versus Jacobs.
They just blend so seamlessly together.
For Rachel, she said she really strives to sound natural in
dialogue. I think that that's very true,
and I think Jacob does a wonderful job with that as well.
There are a few lines that he did change for the show, and I
think that that's pretty common, especially when you're reading
something in your head it it's different than when it's being
audibly said out loud. Sometimes a sentence can feel
clunky coming out of somebody's mouth or it's hard for them to
say on the day. And so those changes are
necessary, but I never felt like there were any that really took
away from the storytelling at all.
Rachel also said that her favorite adapted scene was the
bathroom scene in Vegas, something she has said multiple
times. And it's because he took that
scene, which originally was kind of just a setup for a sex scene,
and he turned it into something that just had so much more
emotion and she described as an incredible piece of art.
And again, I'm I'm so curious to see which scenes he takes from
the long game or role model and does the same sort of
transformation with, because I think he has so much room to
play in that sandbox of those stories and pull something
really beautiful out of it. And that's also when he started
talking about his Co writer Mike, who is an old friend of
his. And that is helping write the
screenplay and the scripts for this show for season 2.
A lot of that is because of the time frame getting crunched the
way did for them to turn the show around.
But Jacob pointed out that Mike loves the show, loves the books,
is coming into the writing with the same enthusiasm and energy
as Jacob, and because the long game is so long, it's going to
feel different inherently from Season 1.
It also is covering different topics.
It's gonna be challenging because this is a more serious
stage of a real relationship that they have to cover and
discuss. And Jacob said that there's more
danger and adolescent topics in heated rivalry because so much
of what they're going through is the first time they're ever
experiencing these things. And that's kind of gone now.
They're they're really settling into what it looks like to be a
couple in a relationship that is serious and adult and the stakes
are different. And he described The Long Game
as a very emotionally sophisticated book.
So that excites me because it is going to treat it as such.
If he's if he's defining the book as emotionally
sophisticated, I think that we're going to get emotionally
sophisticated writing. I think for him too, the fact
that role model is happening in tandem with the events of the
long game means that the way he's writing those characters in
is different than doing a stand alone in episode 3 where they,
you know, go back in time and and kind of isolate the Scott
and Kipp story. This is different.
So even though Shane and Ilya are always going to be the heart
and center and soul of the show, he pointed out that as their
world expands. You know, they're going to
remain central to it all, but he does have to include people in a
different way than, you know, a standalone episode like Episode
3 in Season 1. So I, I'm curious if that means
we're going to get AB plot. I really don't think we are.
But that's going to be interesting because if we do
start getting B plots, that will change the feel and tone of the
show. Jacob said that his favorite
scene in the long game is their big fight at Christmas.
Because it's so smart. So I really kind of am starting
to think that maybe that will have a good portion of a full
episode to cover that. He also said that having to live
in a relationship where they are still not communicating properly
despite loving each other so much is such a universally human
concept, and that knowing a successful relationship requires
more than just loving each other is something that he's so
excited to showcase and dive further into.
And I, I really do start to wonder if he's going to dedicate
a whole episode covering that moment between the two of them
because I think he easily could and it's going to hit home with
so many people. He also noted that Rachel's
writing is, for him, a cut above typical romance books because
they're discussing a real relationship and grounding it in
reality. He used Troy and Harris as an
example of that because on the surface, the trope for them is
grumpy sunshine. But to Jacob, Troy is written as
a deeply damaged character that he's excited to dig further into
in the show because to him, that's more interesting than
this sort of surface level grumpy sunshine.
The books for him, he finds, are really fertile ground for him to
expand upon, and I think he's going to write some really
beautiful original scenes and dialogue for Troy in particular.
He seems to have a very special spot in his heart for him, and I
do too, so I'm looking forward to that.
They asked Rachel where Troy and Harris would be 10 years from
now and she said that she's going to expand upon them a lot
in Unrivalled, but that book doesn't take place 10 years
later and she felt like their ending was kind of abrupt in
their book because she knew that the lawn game was coming.
So she does plan to expand upon what happens with them and
Unrivaled, which is exciting. They also talked about all of
the awards and recognition that the show's been getting.
They asked Jacob and Rachel what genre of books they enjoy
reading and Jacob pointed out that he's going to be doing a
show about Alexander the Great and covering the book The Golden
Mean. Rachel said she reads
everything, but when she's writing, she tries to read
something outside of the romance genre.
So a lot of sci-fi and historical fiction and and Jacob
recommended a book called Human Acts which I am going to add to
my reading list because it sounds fascinating.
Then they talked about Hudsons question and I really loved the
conversation about this because Jacob answered it really
interestingly by saying there are three stages of creation
which includes writing, shooting and cutting and you have to let
the light in for all three stages.
For him, a script is a script, but it's not proper until it's
read and reacted to. And I loved how he described it
as the plans for a building but not the building itself.
And then when you shoot, he is so open to there being surprises
from the actors or production where, you know, they might not
be able to shoot at a certain location and they have to pivot.
And so then that offers a unique change to the story.
And then the editing is the same thing.
So by the time you get to the end, all these different huge
things can happen at every single stage that influence how
a project turns out at the ending versus what you planned
for at the beginning. And for him, the emphasis is on
staying open and allowing surprises and be willing to
change and find the best product at the end.
And that part of that approach is that he doesn't shoot a lot.
So for Season 1, there wasn't a lot of extra footage.
And he pointed out that there will be a blooper reel, but he
doesn't think it's that funny. So I'm excited that we're going
to see that at some point. They ended talking about how
much change in both their lives there's been since the show came
out. Rachel pointed out that authors
aren't usually recognized, so she's still surprised and
weirded out by that at times. But it's wonderful.
Interestingly, she sat on a small scale before this.
She didn't tell many people what she wrote about or that she was
a writer, and now everybody knows that she wrote Heated
Rivalry and she finally doesn't feel weird or embarrassed about
that anymore, which I think is such a beautiful sort of side
effect of all of this happening for her.
Jacob said that even though it's not even been since six months
since the show aired, their lives have all changed so
drastically and they created something they had hoped would
be a hit, but could have never predicted that this type of
reaction would happen to it. Because it doesn't happen.
And I think that that's so true and important to point out that
it surprised everybody involved because this is so rare.
Jacob had always felt like if he could get 10% of the readers of
the book books to be as passionate about the show as
they are about the book series, that they would be the people
that really catapulted it to a new level.
And they were. So I think that's really
wonderful that they gave props to the people who read the books
and sort of created the platform in the 1st place.
They also asked if the pressure and attention has changed how
Rachel is approaching writing her next book.
And she said that the biggest thing for her is that she
doesn't have as much time, especially now that she's
promoted and traveling and talking on panels.
At this point in time, she's in a place where the whole world
cares about what happens, and that's something that she's
never written from before. But I think it's really nice
that her emphasis is on sticking to what she's always done, which
is to write for herself and then just hope that people like it.
And I think that that's really a beautiful message to end the
conversation on because if you are an artist in any way, I
think that's such an important thing to remember is that the
first person you have to make art for is yourself.
And if people like it or don't like it, you have to live with
the result. And so doing things for yourself
is really important. Lastly, I think it's really
important to point out just how great of a job Versha did
moderating this panel and conversation.
And I felt like the way that she chose to end it was just such a
beautiful message that really encapsulates a lot of what I
think this show has achieved in its own right and is.
Aiming to achieve. Globally, I think if you haven't
watched the video on YouTube, it would really be of a great
benefit to you to go through and read some of the comments in
there, because there's a lot of really interesting ones.
And I think highlighting the very recent news about Russian
media getting fined for publishing a review on the show
is just bringing up, again, how no matter where you are in the
world, these topics are still very relevant.
And this discussion is ongoing and very important.
And I think that the impact of this show is obviously a
personal thing for everybody who partakes in reading the books or
watching the TV show. But it's also important to
recognize that it has a global impact and that in different
parts of the world and in different communities that we
all live amongst and within, it will have a different meaning.
And the important thing is that it's getting conversations
started and it is injecting media into the world that we
need to see. And Versa said it really
beautifully when she said that these the universe is the world
as it should be. And it's a very aspirational
viewpoint that we are putting out into the world.
And it made me think about how Schitt's Creek did the same
thing back when it was coming out.
And again, that's another Canadian production.
They really tried to tell the story that that showed the world
as they wish it was in reality. And portray things in the way
that they hoped that it would be, you know, really happening
in the world and, and create an environment that was
aspirational. If we want our world to change,
we need to show everybody what that looks like and have a goal
in mind that we're all, you know, rowing towards together,
steering the ship towards together.
One of the more understated messages for me of this show is
that we don't know what other people are going through. 99% of
the time. A lot of us keep most of our
feelings internally and and don't always share them.
And for people to be curious about one another and care
genuinely about how another person feels and what they're
going through, it only benefits everybody, and that's something
that I think we can all strive towards.
That wraps up. My coverage of Book Con and this
really beautiful conversation, I felt the 57 minutes flew by.
It was so easy to watch and I'm so glad that they put it onto
YouTube so that everyone who couldn't be in attendance at the
actual event was able to listen in and hear the really
insightful. Responses from both Jacob and
Rachel. As always, thank you so much for
listening and getting this far into the podcast episode and for
sticking around and hanging out with me.
And I will talk to you all in our next chat.