1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,280 Welcome back to the Add Up Learning and Development 2 00:00:02,280 --> 00:00:04,600 podcast, and welcome to Season 6. 3 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,760 I'm your host, Holly Owens, and I could not be more excited to 4 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,840 kick things off with the true legend in the learning space, 5 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,840 Doctor Carl Kapp. Carl has been inspiring 6 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,400 educators, instructional designers, and learning 7 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:22,520 professionals for decades. And in this episode, he takes us 8 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,280 all the way back to where it started as an instructional 9 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:30,920 design intern in the 90s. His journey is a powerful 10 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:35,440 reminder that everyone starts somewhere, and through action, 11 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:41,280 curiosity, and community, we can all shape impactful careers in 12 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,640 L&D. We dive into his philosophy of 13 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:48,520 action first learning, exploring why bridging, why bridging 14 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,880 theory and practice matters more than ever, and talk about the 15 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,320 importance of saying yes to opportunities, even the 16 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,200 unexpected ones. This conversation is packed with 17 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,680 insight, warmth, and real talk that will resonate whether 18 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:07,440 you're just starting out or have been in the field for years. 19 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:12,240 Let's dive into this inspiring episode and kick off season 6. 20 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,240 Here's my conversation with Doctor Carl Capp. 21 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,520 Hi, we're ispring, an international team of e-learning 22 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:24,680 enthusiasts who help more than 60,000 clients across the globe 23 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,400 succeed with better online learning. 24 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:32,320 Our two flagship solutions are ispring Suite and ispring Learn 25 00:01:32,320 --> 00:01:35,760 LMS. Ispring Suite is an intuitive, 26 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,320 all in one authoring tool for creating engaging e-learning 27 00:01:39,320 --> 00:01:43,200 content, and ispringlearn is an innovative online training 28 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,920 platform for onboarding, upskilling, and certifying your 29 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:49,640 teams. We also provide tons of free 30 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,440 resources for aspiring and experienced e-learning 31 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,800 professionals, conduct weekly webinars with top industry 32 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,480 experts, and organize annual e-learning conferences, 33 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:04,080 challenges, and championships. We'd be happy to get to know you 34 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,840 and pick a solution that fits your needs best. 35 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:12,840 Go to www.icebringsolutions.com to learn more about us, download 36 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:18,920 our resources and connect. Hello everyone, and welcome to 37 00:02:18,920 --> 00:02:22,480 another fantastic episode of Add Up Learning and Development. 38 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,840 You probably hear the excitement of my voice because I'm super 39 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,880 excited to have this guest. He's famous. 40 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:30,680 We were just talking about it. He's a big deal. 41 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:32,960 He's a very humble person. You probably won't think that 42 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,920 he's an influencer in the LND space and all kinds of different 43 00:02:35,920 --> 00:02:38,000 things. Carl Capp is here. 44 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,160 Carl, welcome to the show. Holly, thanks. 45 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,160 It's fantastic to be here and I always joke around, you know, it 46 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,280 might be famous, but nobody buys AT shirt so. 47 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:46,920 Yeah. How famous? 48 00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:49,120 Really. Yeah. 49 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,320 Well, you know, I follow. I followed your work for a 50 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,800 really long time. So I'm so excited to get into 51 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,040 some questions, some burning questions that I've had. 52 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,680 But first, for people who don't know you, tell us a little bit 53 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,080 about your journey, what you currently do, where you started 54 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:07,360 and, and all the different things that you've just, I mean, 55 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:09,720 I'll, I'll stop, I'll stop Band Girling. 56 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:11,760 Just go ahead and tell us your story, please. 57 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:18,960 So I got started way back, like in around 1997, I got a job as 58 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,280 an intern at this company that did this thing called 59 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,240 instructional technology. And I'm like, what is 60 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,520 instructional technology? And that started way before when 61 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:34,520 that when I was young, I did, I was in a little theater and we 62 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,080 were in a video, a safety video called Willy Whistle, like 63 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:38,200 learning how to cross the street. 64 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:40,840 And this company had produced that video for safety. 65 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,040 And, and so I got an internship there and I'm like, what are you 66 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:43,840 guys doing? They're like, Oh, we do 67 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,120 instructional technology. I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is so 68 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,520 cool. It's a little bit of, I had an 69 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,280 English background, teaching background. 70 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,840 So it was a little bit of that. I almost had a psych minor. 71 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:54,840 So it was a little bit of that. I'm like, this is great. 72 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,320 So I was already planning to go to the University of Pittsburgh 73 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,440 for counseling, and I'm like, yeah, this sounds so much more 74 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:07,800 fun than counseling. And so I changed my major, my 75 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,360 graduate program, which was apparently a big deal, but I did 76 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,200 it anyway. And then I got to University of 77 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:17,079 Pittsburgh was taking classes and then I also position to take 78 00:04:17,079 --> 00:04:20,360 classes in the Business School, which like somebody's like, why 79 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,640 is an HR person taking business classes? 80 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,760 Like, well, if more these people took HR classes and more HR 81 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:29,440 class people took business classes, we'd probably all be a 82 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,800 little bit better off. So so that was that start. 83 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:37,040 And then and then I was working for a software company and I had 84 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,200 one foot in academia and 1 foot in corporate. 85 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,280 And so I wanted to switch feet. Everybody was like, hey, if you 86 00:04:42,280 --> 00:04:44,720 don't, if you get your doctorate degree and you don't go into 87 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,800 teaching, like they're not going to let you in in two years 88 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:49,440 because you'll be tainted by corporate. 89 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:51,320 That's. Tainted. 90 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,560 They didn't want like, you know, you'll be tainted by corporate 91 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,200 like, well. You don't be out of function in 92 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,280 education anymore. Right, Exactly. 93 00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:00,600 Yeah. I'm like, well, wouldn't it be 94 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,720 the other way around? Wouldn't I mean, So anyway, it's 95 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,200 starting to change in that direction, but so I look for 96 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,880 opportunities. I found one in Bloomsburg. 97 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,520 I really like what they did. They had this corporate Advisory 98 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,560 Council where they brought corporate people in every 99 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,680 semester and, and the students presented to them a mock, a 100 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,040 response to a mock RFP. And I thought, Oh my gosh, this 101 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,480 is a great class. So I started working there and 102 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,680 then I got interested in gamification. 103 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,480 I started publishing books about gamification and learning 104 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,720 design. And because I wanted to share 105 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:36,440 the knowledge, you know, that I was, I was able to work and 106 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,440 research on. And so I started to, to do that 107 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,800 and then started, got an opportunity to be a alynda.com 108 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,440 instructor and, and, and now that they're LinkedIn learning. 109 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,920 And then so it just kind of, you know, spiraled from there. 110 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:52,760 I just was having so much fun doing stuff. 111 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:54,920 And, you know, I'm like, no one's going to ever hear me in 112 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,160 little, little old Bloomsburg, PA. 113 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,760 OK, well, maybe I should, you know, expand, break the four 114 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,600 walls down. So that was kind of what I spent 115 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,720 a lot of time doing. Oh my goodness. 116 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,880 I love this journey. And I love the fact that you 117 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,000 were like put into an intern program that was instructional 118 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,640 technology. And you know what, just for the 119 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,160 listeners out there here, a little bit younger than 90s did 120 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:19,720 exist. There was instructional 121 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:21,920 technology. We were doing instructional 122 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,160 design. We weren't just, you know, 123 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,720 writing on with our pencils and paper and our chalkboards. 124 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,960 So that's really an amazing journey for you, Carl. 125 00:06:33,280 --> 00:06:35,280 And I want to talk. I want to talk a little bit 126 00:06:35,280 --> 00:06:37,760 because I'm a higher education instructor too, and I teach 127 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,000 instructional design courses. So tell us a little bit about 128 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,080 that journey for you and how that has influenced and impacted 129 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,200 the things that you've done for the LND space. 130 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,120 Because you know, you've spoke in different places, you're a 131 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,360 consultant, you do all these different things. 132 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,760 So how has teaching kind of maybe grounded you in? 133 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,160 I always say I have to practice what I preach. 134 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,720 So tell us a little bit about that experience. 135 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:03,520 Right practice and defend. Right, because. 136 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,800 Yes, Oh yes, yes, 100%. Athletic then, Steve. 137 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,120 So like, yeah, Doctor Kaiser, even real, like how's that even 138 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:10,800 work? Come on. 139 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,360 So it's it's great in terms of like always having to defend and 140 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,240 think about it and research it. And but just to get back real, 141 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,520 real quick, I was doing instructions on we, we literally 142 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:25,160 had a green screen and one word. And the one question in the 143 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,280 middle of the school was, so we've come so far. 144 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,480 We have, we have. I'm so proud of us, yeah. 145 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,880 So the, the interesting thing about, you know, you know, 146 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,840 teaching and that is, is exactly is you have the opportunity to 147 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,520 do the research, to apply the research and then see the 148 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:47,600 results. So I think that's that's kind of 149 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,880 fun and interesting. But one of the things that, as 150 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,640 you know in the field is sometimes the academic research 151 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:55,640 doesn't always translate into practice. 152 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:00,160 And so a lot of what I've been trying to do is like, OK, well, 153 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,720 this is what it really means for somebody who's in the field 154 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:07,480 practicing because our, our students in our program, we, we, 155 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,520 when we first started, it was very unique in that we had a 156 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,040 corporate track as well as an education track. 157 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,240 So a lot of academic tracks are, are focused on or we're focused 158 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,600 on academics. And ours was a little bit 159 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:22,560 different at the time was focused on corporate. 160 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,560 So the corporate people were very demanding, like I want 161 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:27,920 these students to be able to come out here and and create 162 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,440 stuff right away. They have to use the software. 163 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,679 They can't, you know, know about the software. 164 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:37,400 So we had, we spent our, my predecessor, Dr. Hank Bailey had 165 00:08:37,919 --> 00:08:40,080 build up relationships with all these corporate people and 166 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,360 stuff, which was hard for me because when I first came in 167 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:46,760 1997, like he not purposefully, but you know, all his corporate 168 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,440 connections left with him. So I just spent a lot trying to 169 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:51,320 build that. Yeah. 170 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,480 So that was a couple. The network totally went away. 171 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,200 Exactly. I'm like, what am I going to do? 172 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,480 So I started, you know, that's why I started going to 173 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,160 conferences and speaking to get, you know, corporate people to 174 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,600 come back to Bloomsburg and, you know, talk to the students and 175 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,640 give the students opportunities. So, so, so it was kind of born a 176 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,720 little bit of necessity to get out there and get people 177 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,080 involved with our program and what we were doing. 178 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,320 That's that's amazing and I love the fact that like, you know, 179 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,640 you did, you did have that predecessor that kind of set 180 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,440 things up, but I'm sorry that they took your network. 181 00:09:26,680 --> 00:09:29,360 I think one of the most challenging things about about 182 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,880 teaching, especially instructional design courses is 183 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,720 like you have to like what you're saying about the real 184 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:36,160 world. Like they have to be able to 185 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,560 apply it right away. And like the theories and the 186 00:09:39,560 --> 00:09:42,880 knowledge and the frameworks are all part of that conversation. 187 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,520 But putting that into practice into like, you know, putting my 188 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,880 students into real world situations, like my students 189 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,680 design an entire online training course. 190 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:57,160 And they are so like they're super intimidated by the fact 191 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,720 that they have to design this thing from start to finish. 192 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:01,960 And they're like, we have to use an LMS with an LMS. 193 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,440 You know, they've taken the intro course and it's just, but 194 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,640 by the end of the semester, they really feel like proud of 195 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:11,240 themselves, like they've done all these things. 196 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,160 And I could say that they've experienced something like 197 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:15,800 project management in the real world. 198 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:17,480 Yeah, no, that's that's fantastic. 199 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:18,720 I mean, that's the best way to do it. 200 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,880 It it early in my career I wrote, I think one of my first 201 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:28,320 academic publications ever was I did some work on using a problem 202 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,560 based learning approach to teach instructional design and was 203 00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:36,320 really that that really helped to me bring like kind of what I 204 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,480 was doing academically grounded kind of what one of the things 205 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,400 so I don't want to give Hank about Hank was awesome. 206 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,960 Like he gave me all his that my predecessor gave me all his 207 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,840 materials and everything. It's just that when he left, 208 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,280 like his corporate people were like, yeah, you know, I used to 209 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:53,640 do that. I don't they, they use that as 210 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:55,680 an opportunity to to leave as well. 211 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:57,440 But he gave me a lot of good stuff. 212 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:00,520 But he had founded this class where where you form students 213 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,440 into teams, where you give them, you know, a mock request for 214 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:05,880 proposal where they have to respond and they have to. 215 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,000 So all that was his problem based learning approach. 216 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:09,960 I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is a brilliant approach. 217 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,280 And so, you know, I just kind of honed that through the years, 218 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,400 but he was really kind of the, the, the founder of that like, 219 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,040 and, and really set, I think the groundwork for that. 220 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,520 But it was funny when I, when I interviewed, I had to give a 221 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,360 lecture and I had mentioned Kirkpatrick's 4 levels of 222 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,720 evaluation. And afterwards they kind of 223 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,200 laughed and they said what? Well, and they said, well, last 224 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,200 time the students had, they had a presentation, they were asked 225 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,840 about Kirkpatrick's and none of them knew anything about, we 226 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:40,560 didn't know anything about Kirkpatrick. 227 00:11:40,560 --> 00:11:43,640 So I'm like, Oh my gosh, like that's like a common thing. 228 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:49,920 So that practical approach that I had was valuable when I came 229 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:54,080 into the Department of Bloomsburg back in WOW 1997. 230 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,280 When you say the 90s, I feel like the 90s were like 10 years 231 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,520 ago. My gosh, I know, I know. 10 232 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:04,280 years ago and a million years ago, right? 233 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,960 Yes, yes. And when people post those kind 234 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,680 of like memes out on social media, like 1930 is the same. 235 00:12:10,680 --> 00:12:13,240 We're the same. We're close to 2050, like 1930 236 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,840 to 1990, whatever. And I'm like stop, like stop 237 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,840 making me feel old, but that's that. 238 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:22,800 It's fun. I love the 90s were great. 239 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,760 Anyways, let's get into your new book. 240 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,680 So you have a new book called Action First Learning, and I'm 241 00:12:28,680 --> 00:12:30,960 so glad you're here to talk about it. 242 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,760 Action first is a really powerful phrase. 243 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,160 And when I think about that as an instructional designer, that 244 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,160 could mean a variety of different things to me. 245 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,280 So tell us a little bit about what does that mean in the 246 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,520 context of learning design? And then I have a few questions 247 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:47,080 about the book. Yeah, great. 248 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:51,520 So, so to me, one of the things that has always so I I got 249 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,200 started in games, games gamification because one day I 250 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,120 was sitting in my, you know, basement playing video games. 251 00:12:58,120 --> 00:12:59,840 It was like 3:00 in the morning while I was like. 252 00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:01,400 What video games were you playing? 253 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,240 I was playing James Bond double O 7 Nightfire. 254 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,640 Oh my God. Yes, talk about 1990, talk about 255 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,280 the 1990. That's such a great game. 256 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:12,080 And I'll tell you how much I did not know. 257 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,760 Back then, they had a multiplayer mode and they had 258 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,160 these things called AI bots. But you know, we're playing on 259 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,840 fuzzy TV, so we call them the bots. 260 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,720 We're like why are these OWL bots like chasing us? 261 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,040 We have some, we have some OWL bots. 262 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,640 We have some owl bots chasing us now, certainly. 263 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,120 Yeah, that's great. I love that. 264 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:38,560 Yeah, that was really funny. So, so I was playing again, but 265 00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:39,800 I'm. But I'm like, well, why are 266 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,720 people like, so why am I up till 3:00 in the morning playing this 267 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,600 game when online learning it like puts people to sleep? 268 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,360 So that was kind of the premise. So over the years I've kind of 269 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,240 worked on that. And one of the things that that 270 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,560 really I find sets a tone both in the classroom and online is 271 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,440 when people do something first. Like if I do a workshop and then 272 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,200 halfway through I'm like, OK, let's do an activity. 273 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:06,000 People are like, yeah, but if I put an activity, they're like, 274 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:09,280 yeah, this is great. And the momentum continues 275 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,760 through the whole experience. And I'm like what? 276 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,240 Wait a minute, we should do that, be doing that online too. 277 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:18,280 We should do action 1st. And so I wanted to put together 278 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,880 this kind of almost more of a philosophy, right? 279 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,560 So gamification, the problem is one of the problems is if you 280 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:26,240 were like, well, is that a game or gamification? 281 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,600 Like I don't really care as long as you're involving the learner, 282 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,040 getting them interested and, and kind of moving them forward. 283 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,440 But there's a lot of discussion about, you know, when's it 284 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,120 become a game and all that kind of stuff. 285 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,320 And so I wanted to get away from that terminology and I wanted to 286 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,280 move toward action 1st. And so no matter what you do, 287 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,360 whether it's not gamified, whether it's just an activity, 288 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:52,400 you're helping the learners take action and there is act, you 289 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,080 know, activity based learning. The problem with that is again, 290 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:00,040 on the academic side is there's the sometimes definitions are so 291 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:01,840 rigid. So I'll get in a discussion and 292 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,360 somebody say, well, that's not really activity based learning 293 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:05,760 or that's not really problem based learning. 294 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:07,640 That's not really I'm like, well, why not know? 295 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:11,200 Well, according to such and such, here's the and so like, 296 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:15,080 OK, OK, I get that we need that for research, but practitioners 297 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:19,760 don't care. So I said, OK, let's pick a term 298 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,520 that I think people can get behind that doesn't have any 299 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,480 baggage associated with it. Or trauma or trauma, like 300 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,920 negative connotation, you know, all the different things. 301 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,480 You know, it's interesting, you know, you brought up a good 302 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,120 point. Like everybody tries to put some 303 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,320 of these things into boxes that they're, but that's not how 304 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,920 instructional design is. That's not how L&D is. 305 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,320 Like it could one day it could be one thing, the next day it 306 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,120 could be a different thing. Anyways, I digress. 307 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,040 That's a great, I mean, Holly, that's such a great point 308 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,920 because people do try to put it in boxes and then I think the 309 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,680 box limits. Like one time I did a blog post 310 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,280 and I said, according to such and such research, the best 311 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,360 time, the best length of the video is about 5 minutes. 312 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,760 And this person, who obviously was a PhD student, said, how 313 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,840 dare you give that advice? The researchers didn't look at 314 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,920 4:30. They didn't look at 5 O1. 315 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:14,520 We don't. Know my goodness. 316 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,480 And it's I'm like, Oh my God, like, come on. 317 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,280 So yeah, wait till we test every second. 318 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,680 And then we give advice to the practitioners. 319 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:24,200 I'm like, yeah, that's not, that's not. 320 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,720 Happening yeah that's not it'll never get it'll never get 321 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,120 finished and there'll always be like that's what research is 322 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,840 though you're sharing, you know different you're doing 323 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,640 experiments different ways or case studies different ways so 324 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,160 that person. Obviously you're sharing it in 325 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,360 process, right I. Mean, right, Right. 326 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,600 There's not an end monolith of knowledge that oh, we finally 327 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,880 found it. It's you're working it out as it 328 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,520 goes along, people change research elements. 329 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:48,200 So I just thought that was so funny. 330 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,480 So to your point, people do like to kind of box that in from the, 331 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,280 from the research perspective, but the IT leaves the 332 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,400 practitioners with what I mean, some practitioners are still 333 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,560 doing learning styles. So, you know, we have a long way 334 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,280 to go to get kind of the research out there. 335 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,920 So let's not, let's not hoard it until we're perfect. 336 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:07,839 Let's get it out there. And so that was part of the 337 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:11,000 impetus. And then finally, I was looking 338 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,920 back at Action First Comics, and you know, it was. 339 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:15,560 Super. I was going to say, I love that 340 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,319 theme in your book. I love it. 341 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:19,920 That played a large role as well. 342 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,640 Yeah, and and also too, I want to mention that you have 343 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,280 coloring pages. I do in the book. 344 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:27,920 Yeah. So I think that's really, that's 345 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:29,520 really cool. But I mean, that's not the 346 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:31,400 coolest part. So tell us a little bit more 347 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,640 like what's what's the book? What's it about? 348 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,200 Like how's it going to help us as instructional designers? 349 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,760 Are those in higher education in the in the field? 350 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,280 I definitely have already considered that this might be my 351 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:44,320 next book that I'm going to use to teach with. 352 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,080 Oh, excellent. Because of what you're covering 353 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,960 and and how it correlates with the, the curriculum teaching, I 354 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,720 think it's fantastic. And you're such a, you break it 355 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,320 down so simply for people to kind of understand these 356 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,480 different learning experiences. So tell us a little bit more 357 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:00,320 about. Thanks. 358 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:04,200 Yeah, yeah. So, so the book is the 1st 359 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,080 chapter is, you know, like kind of what is action first 360 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,040 learning, what is some of the research behind it, that kind of 361 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,440 stuff. And then I have 9 chapters that 362 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:16,200 take a different action, first learning technique and then 363 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,640 explain the technique. Now, I don't think that there's 364 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,440 only 9. There's lots more than 9, but 365 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,800 you run out of book space. Run on a page, right? 366 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,000 Exactly. So I'm hoping more people will 367 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,560 kind of expand, but so for example, one of the chapters is 368 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,280 on card games. And So what I do in every 369 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,920 chapter is I started with an action first thing that you have 370 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,000 to do. So when you read the chapter, 371 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,080 you got to take action before you before you're allowed to 372 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:41,440 read the rest of it. I don't know how that's 373 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,080 enforced. But you're modeling what you're 374 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:44,280 preaching. I love it. 375 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,600 Exactly. And then the next step after 376 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,520 that is I have a case study of people doing that. 377 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,920 And then I also say this book like, like I think I've written 378 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,640 like, I don't know, like 10 books or whatever and every 379 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:57,560 book. That you a lot. 380 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,280 It told me a lot of books you read when I research how many 381 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,440 books you've written. It's it's kept me busy. 382 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,000 It's awesome. I, I mean like I'm you're my 383 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,600 role model. I haven't written one book, but 384 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,400 I feel like I have all this knowledge to just put down. 385 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,880 Well, I always say, I mean, if you have a class, you have a 386 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,200 book. I mean, you could still, you can 387 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,880 easily write, write a book, but one of the things that every 388 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,080 time I write a book, you know, you always get criticism. 389 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,360 So, you know, I wrote one book and said, this is great, but 390 00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:26,720 there's no case studies. OK, then I wrote another book. 391 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:28,400 This is great. Case studies are great, but 392 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:29,720 there's no step by step instruction. 393 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,520 OK, hey, this is great. But so there's no takeaways. 394 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:35,880 So this book is also a combination of what I learned. 395 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,760 So every chapter has a detailed case study. 396 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:43,400 It has step by step instructions and it has this is good for 397 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,120 teaching that. So card games are good for 398 00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:49,000 teaching discrimination where you sort one thing from another 399 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,920 and then I say when to use them. So every chapter provides kind 400 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:58,840 of a road map of of what it is, why it's effective, why how 401 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,760 people have used it and why you should use it and then how you 402 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,800 can use it. And then finally, you know, the 403 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,400 age of AII, put a little AI prompt in there. 404 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,760 So. If you're not familiar with AI 405 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,200 or you do AI, you can copy that prompt, paste it into AI, and it 406 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,360 can help you with whatever that action first learning approach 407 00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:18,280 happens to be. I mean, you have all the things 408 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,440 in the book now, like nobody can criticize it. 409 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,320 I mean, you know, if someone said, you know, if you're not, 410 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:33,760 if you're, if you're not taking arrows in the chest, then you're 411 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,400 not far enough out ahead, something like that, right? 412 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:39,560 So yeah. I mean, you're always going to 413 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,600 take arrows and that's fine. And that's just what you do when 414 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,760 you're in the position. And always, I always say take 415 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,280 the best comments and disregard those, then take the worst 416 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,640 comments and disregard those. And then the truth is probably 417 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,400 somewhere in the middle. Yeah, absolutely. 418 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,520 So one of the things I think that's like a struggle, 419 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,000 especially in this industry is that people think that, you 420 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:04,960 know, commonly trained is the answer. 421 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,920 So one of the core ideas in the book is like we should design 422 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,320 for doing, not just like the the knowledge piece of that. 423 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:15,040 So as as an instructor in higher education and an instructional 424 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,080 designer, all these different things, what does that look like 425 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,280 in practice to people? Cuz I think we have a lot of 426 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,160 listeners on the show who are transitioning teachers and 427 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,480 they're thinking about getting into instructional designs. 428 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,800 So can you give us an idea of like, what does that look like 429 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,600 in practice? Yeah, I think the very first 430 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,360 thing to think about is what does a person have to do? 431 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,840 So, and part of the problem is when we talk to a subject matter 432 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,480 expert, we usually ask them like, what do they have to know 433 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,200 and what do you know and that kind of stuff. 434 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,280 And I think we get the wrong impression. 435 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,200 But what we have to do is what do we want at the end of the 436 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:48,480 day? What do we want the person to 437 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,920 do? So if you think about like 438 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,600 YouTube, for example, it's really like I had to change the 439 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,200 shower head in my shower upstairs. 440 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,280 I didn't need to know the history of the shower head. 441 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,240 I didn't even know how shower heads are built. 442 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,800 All I need to know is what do I unscrew in which direction? 443 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:04,120 And then what do I screw back in, right? 444 00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:06,880 That's what I needed to know. So that also got me thinking 445 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,760 like, OK, how do we take action? So, so if you look at your 446 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,720 classroom and same thing with learning objectives. 447 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,760 Sometimes I call them learning objections because if you. 448 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:19,400 Learn. Right. 449 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,280 The learner goes, Oh, I already know how to do that. 450 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,120 Like if you say today you will learn three ways to, and they'll 451 00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:26,320 go, I know four ways. This is a waste of my time. 452 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,880 So I think let's start out like, OK, you're in a sales situation, 453 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,760 try to sell somebody. Oh, OK, you forgot to say this, 454 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,800 this, this and this. So now we, we and, and going 455 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,200 back to Malcolm Knowles, now the adult learner knows they don't 456 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,000 know something. So if you put them in a 457 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,640 situation where they have to apply knowledge, even if they 458 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,920 don't, even if you haven't taught it before, because 459 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:49,800 they're adult learners, they have some level of knowledge, 460 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,120 even if they don't know it. And when they try to apply it, 461 00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:56,360 then they're more open to learning because they know they 462 00:22:56,360 --> 00:22:58,800 don't know it. And you've, you've created the 463 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,640 schemas and the pathways. And so start people out and it 464 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,760 can be very simple. You could say, hey, we're going 465 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,240 to learn about, let's say history. 466 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,680 We're going to learn about the history of the Civil War. 467 00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:11,600 Let's put these battles in order. 468 00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:14,640 You're like, I don't know. And they're in cards and you 469 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,560 sort them in order and then you can go by, OK, why did you think 470 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,480 the Gettysburg was before, you know, Sumter Hill or something 471 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,640 like that? Right now you can discuss it. 472 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,200 And now people go, Oh yeah. And now you're, you're exposing 473 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,520 and, and, and, and remedying paradigms. 474 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,160 And if you do it in a sales situation and somebody's like, 475 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:34,760 oh, well, that's why sales doesn't work. 476 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,760 And it's the whole idea of practice. 477 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,120 Like I, I feel like people, especially in corporations, feel 478 00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:42,080 like they don't need to practice. 479 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,040 Like I've been a sales person for 50 years. 480 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,480 I don't need to practice. Well, how do you know you're any 481 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,080 good? How do you know? 482 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,000 Yeah. And when this stuff, when it 483 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,120 changes or using the same methods, I mean, people could 484 00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:56,080 possibly still be sitting down typing on a typewriter, right? 485 00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:57,920 Why aren't you getting on a computer? 486 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,960 Yeah, that's, that's what I think about is in terms of like 487 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,440 the what are they doing that's archaic? 488 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,600 And like if you've done it for 50 years or if you've done it 489 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,320 for 20 years, like are you constantly reinventing yourself 490 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,080 and your methods to align with what's happening in the world? 491 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,320 Hello, AI, Hello. All the different things that 492 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,640 are impacting our industry. You know, it's a good question 493 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,760 to ask. Yeah, it's got to be and, and 494 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,920 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we can have a whole 495 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:26,840 other conversation on on how that industry is. 496 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:27,840 Changing. Oh yeah, you're definitely 497 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,680 coming back because this is, this is not enough time for me. 498 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,840 Once Santa is a side note, I love your microphone, how it 499 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:35,840 changes color. Oh, thank you. 500 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,120 It's it's, it's a conversation starter. 501 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,160 That is very cool. Thank you. 502 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,800 And it's really cool because one of the things you can do muted, 503 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,120 so when it's not changing colors, that means I'm muted. 504 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,600 And I love that because sometimes, you know, you're in 505 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,840 the Zoom meeting or you're in the Riverside recording and I 506 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,640 forget to unmute myself. So I just use that if I need to 507 00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,520 mute if something's happening. That's great. 508 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,800 That's a nice feature. Yeah, well, let's talk a little 509 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,280 bit more. Let's wrap up a little bit on 510 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,480 the book. So tell people like where they 511 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,800 where can they access it? Where can they get it? 512 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,360 Yeah, You know, we're gonna put all the links in the show notes. 513 00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:15,280 I want you to advertise it as much as possible. 514 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,880 I'm gonna go and get it. I did a little bit of research 515 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,080 about it, so tell us. So tell us where to find it. 516 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,560 Amazon. I always say, you know, it's 517 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,000 available where finer books are sold, but I think it's also not 518 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,600 as fine books are sold, but you can get it. 519 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,800 So the place probably the best is ATD has a website. 520 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,800 And yeah, the cool thing about that is there's actually an 521 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,720 instructor guide. I love that. 522 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:47,280 Downloadable items, yes. So go to ATD if you don't want 523 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,240 to go there, you can certainly go to Amazon. 524 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,920 That helps my Amazon numbers, but it's not the best. 525 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,160 But and then Barnes and Nobles, yes, still around. 526 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,040 And you can, you can go ahead and get the book there. 527 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,600 If you, you know, follow me on LinkedIn. 528 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,480 I have a, a newsletter called L&D Easter Eggs. 529 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,000 And I always think links and stuff like that. 530 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,200 I did a post a while back and I'll repost it on on when when 531 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,520 this airs on. I put together a curriculum of 532 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:20,480 all my YouTube videos, LinkedIn learning courses, articles that 533 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,520 correspond with each chapter of the book. 534 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,280 So if you're like, hey, I want to know about digital card 535 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,800 games, You can go and look at everything I've done in digital 536 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,480 card games. If you want to know about escape 537 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:30,880 rooms, you can look at escape rooms. 538 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,960 You want to know about creating an AI chat bot, you know you can 539 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,840 go there. So I'm building out a whole 540 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,720 playlist that links back to the book so that that can be 541 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,520 helpful. I want, I mean, you got to have 542 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,080 the book out there and all that kind of stuff, but you know, 543 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,520 this kind of goes beyond that and helps people really 544 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,360 implement it and and. You're organized like you, you 545 00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:54,560 don't feel everyone like I like to take active like notes as I'm 546 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,600 writing the book. But then you go and you organize 547 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,720 and you give us all these these guides and things. 548 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,680 And I love the fact that you design an instructor guide for 549 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,880 people who you want to use this thing in their courses. 550 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,240 That is like, that's golden within itself. 551 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:11,560 So thank you for doing that. I mean, I, I don't know what I 552 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,120 do without some of the books that I've read. 553 00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:17,760 Like, you know, I, I really love design for how people learn. 554 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,400 It's one that consistently and that's the current book I use. 555 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,960 But just the guides and things are they're, they're so 556 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,400 valuable. Yeah, the one thing I love about 557 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,960 this field is everyone so giving and and you know, they publish 558 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,200 everything and they're not keeping it secrets and you know, 559 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,040 that kind of stuff. And I, I think that's one of the 560 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,640 things that makes this field from the academic and the, and 561 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,080 the, and the professional side so, so invigorating because 562 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,160 people are sharing and are helping and it's, it's a helping 563 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,680 industry. I 100% agree with that. 564 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,760 I don't know, I don't know how other communities are. 565 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,280 I imagine they're not, they like to keep secrets, but we don't, 566 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,840 we just share everything and if it's like it doesn't work, we'll 567 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,280 try something out. If it doesn't work, we'll point 568 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:57,520 you to the person that can help you. 569 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,800 Here's the expert like in action learning and, and all those 570 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,200 different things. So I want to kind of as we start 571 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,360 to wrap up the episode, I want to shift the conversation a 572 00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:07,200 little bit. Like I mentioned earlier, we 573 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,680 have a lot of transitioning teachers that listen to this 574 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,920 show and they're always looking for a advice from experts like 575 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,720 yourself about you. You're a consultant, you teach 576 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,400 in higher education, you are a leader in this space, you're an 577 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,160 influence in this space. So people thinking about leaving 578 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,280 the education space, maybe stepping into a role saying 579 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,360 instructional design or learning experience design. 580 00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:31,200 Do you have any advice that you could give them? 581 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,280 Maybe one to three things like. Yeah. 582 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:39,440 So, so one thing I would say is is create instruction online 583 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:44,560 instruction like before you need to like start doing it. 584 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,760 So do it for nonprofits, do it for your kids school, do it for 585 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,480 yourself, do it for your hobbies, whatever. 586 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,280 Just get into the practice of developing online instruction 587 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,840 and and presenting it. I think that's really important. 588 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,120 The second thing is get involved with communities of practice 589 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,240 like this one where you can get good information and good ideas 590 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,480 and you know, there's all kinds of professional organizations. 591 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,560 So you can, you can become a member of those as well. 592 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:15,240 And then the third one is you, you kind of have to. 593 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,720 So this is advice that's counter like a lot of people that are 594 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,480 are are self help people say say no to everything except your 595 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,600 core goal. Like don't get distracted, don't 596 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,080 say yes to everything. I kind of have the opposite. 597 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,360 I like to say yes to everything like, oh, I've never done that 598 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:31,400 before. Let me try that out. 599 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,560 OK, well, maybe I won't do that again or yeah, let me try this. 600 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,120 So so I. Feel like you and I are kindred 601 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,400 spirits there because I do a lot too and I don't. 602 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,360 I don't, but everything kind of connects. 603 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,520 It all connects. It definitely does. 604 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,880 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, if you do it right or even 605 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:48,520 if you just do it, it just connects. 606 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,280 And I find, you know, if I, if I do something over here on the 607 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,680 corporate side comes back to the classroom, I do something in the 608 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,960 classroom, it comes back to my consulting, I come back. 609 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:57,840 So. So yeah, those are my three 610 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,000 pieces of advice. You know, create instruction, 611 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,480 even if somebody hasn't asked you to go ahead and join a 612 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,360 community of practice and, and learn from the others and, and 613 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,800 get solos from the others and then say yes to lots of 614 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,080 different opportunities and, and implement those opportunities. 615 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,160 And then finally, I would say ground yourself in the science. 616 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,040 There's a lot of people that are accidental instructional 617 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,800 designers, which is fantastic, but they don't have the learning 618 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,840 science to back up some of the decisions that they make. 619 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,400 So even if you're an accidental instructional designer, if 620 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,800 you're coming from an education background, typically you've had 621 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,760 some training in pedagogy or some of the research behind 622 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,560 teaching methods and techniques. So that's going to be an 623 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,480 advantage as you move forward. There's tons of transferable 624 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,400 skills there. Then that's one thing we do talk 625 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,240 about a lot is the transferable skills. 626 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,800 Yeah. So thank you so much. 627 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,320 Isn't by super fast for me. I'm going to have to have you 628 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,400 back on so we can talk about some other things that that 629 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:55,920 you're into and things that you're doing. 630 00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:01,360 And I want to let everybody know that how to access and get your 631 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,720 copy of Action First Learning is going to be in the show notes. 632 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:06,920 Please go out to LinkedIn World, follow Carl. 633 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:08,880 Everything's going to be there for you to find him. 634 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:10,720 So easy. It's going to all be linked. 635 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:12,680 Carl. Any final thoughts from you 636 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,360 before we end the episode for the audience? 637 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:21,200 So one of my favorite quotes is by Mario Andretti, and he said 638 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,480 if everything seems under control, you're just not going 639 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,440 fast enough. So that's my piece of advice. 640 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,240 I love it. I feel like I'm definitely out 641 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,680 of control right now. Like I that used to give me like 642 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,680 so much, I'm like, I can't control and nothing's going on. 643 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,120 Then I read that quote and I'm like, Oh my gosh, it all kind of 644 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,640 makes sense. It all looks it's all coming 645 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,000 together. Well, this is this is so much 646 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,480 fun. I can't wait to drop this 647 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,080 episode and make sure that if you're listening to our show, 648 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,440 you're also giving us a great review. 649 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,720 Carl, thanks again for being on the show. 650 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,120 We I loved having you. This has been a great 651 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,120 conversation. Thanks, I've had a great time. 652 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,920 Hi, we're Ice Spring, an international team of e-learning 653 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,160 enthusiasts who help more than 60,000 clients across the globe 654 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,320 succeed with better online learning. 655 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,880 Our two flagship solutions are Ice Spring Suite and Ice Spring 656 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,960 Learn LMS. Ice Spring Suite is an intuitive 657 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,680 all in one authoring tool for creating engaging e-learning 658 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,880 content, while Ice Spring Learn is an innovative online training 659 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,880 platform for on boarding up, skilling and certifying your 660 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,040 teams. We'd be happy to get to know you 661 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,080 and pick a solution that fits your needs best. 662 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,560 Go to www.ispringsolutions.com to learn more about us and 663 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,200 connect. Thanks for spending a few 664 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,560 minutes with Holly. She knows your podcast queue is 665 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,200 packed. If today's episode sparked an 666 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,400 idea or gave you that extra nudge of confidence, tap follow 667 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,080 or subscribe in your favorite app so you never miss an episode 668 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:48,200 of Edup L and.