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Hello, my name is Holly Owens 
and welcome to Ed up edtech the 

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podcast that keeps you. 
In the know about all the latest

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edtech happenings. 
We interview guests from around 

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the globe to give you deeper 
insights into the Ed tech 

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industry, the field of 
instructional design, and more, 

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we're proudly a part of 
America's leading podcast 

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Network the Ed up, experience. 
It's time to sit back and enjoy.

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Enjoy the latest episode of Ed 
up attack. 

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But first, a quick word from 
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Hello everyone and happy New 

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Year. 
Welcome to the first episode of 

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Ed up, Ed tech for season 3 and 
you're not going to believe the 

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guests I have today. 
I know you've been seeing posts 

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only. 
Then I've been saying different 

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things about this guest, but 
today on the show, we have the 

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one and only Tim Slade. 
Tim Slade, welcome to the show. 

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Yeah. 
Thank you so much for having me,

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holly. 
I'm so Excited to talk to, you 

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have lots of questions that I 
prepared, but first, I want to 

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give you the opportunity to tell
us your story and your journey 

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and all the things about you 
coming into this e-learning 

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space. 
Yeah, so I currently work as a 

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freelance e-learning designer 
and developer and I'm also the 

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creator of the e-learning 
designers Academy which I know 

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will talk a little bit more 
about later, but I've been 

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working in this industry for a 
little over 15 years now and 

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like most folks can In this 
industry, I fell into it 

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completely, by accident. 
I don't have any formal 

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background and any of the stuff 
that I do I used to catch 

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shoplifters for a living and I 
have a degree in criminal 

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justice. 
And the thing I always tell 

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people is one day, my boss came 
to me and he said, hey, you're 

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really good at catching 
shoplifters, which I was, and it

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said, you should be training 
others. 

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How to catch shoplifters. 
They're just so happen to be a 

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training coordinator job for the
Store I was working at at their 

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corporate office in the loss, 
prevention department. 

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And so I applied for it thinking
that it would Advance my loss, 

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prevention career and I managed 
to get the job and it was 

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through that experience that I 
was introduced into e-learning 

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and instructional design and 
that's kind of how I 

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transitioned into this industry,
totally by accident. 

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And that's what I've been doing 
ever since. 

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I love hearing the story, but I 
also love reading the story. 

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I was like, I had no idea before
I read the book. 

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That that was your story and I 
was like taking it back. 

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I was like interesting path 
because you do encounter a lot 

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of and current instructional 
designers, Lou cops and being 

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one of them whose past wasn't 
ever going to be instructional 

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design. 
And now, here we are having this

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conversation. 
Yeah, you know, the reason I 

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always tell that story, whenever
I have the opportunity is so 

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many people who are new or 
trying to get into this. 

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This industry they don't they 
don't realize that everybody 

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else was in the same boat that 
they're like that imposter 

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syndrome and the insecurity and 
feeling like you don't belong. 

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Everyone else in this industry, 
felt that way at some point and 

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it's because we all were doing 
something else before we 

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transitioned into this. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

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And that's sometimes, I still 
feel like that. 

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No, I was certain points where 
you're the type of person. 

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Like we are to, we're always 
learning, you're like, oh my 

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gosh, I had no idea that it had 
like a weakness or I need to UPS

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go in this area so that's yep. 
That's one of the things I love 

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about this. 
Community. 

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All right. 
You're an e-learning Guru as I 

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see it. 
So I want to know. 

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How do you define e-learning? 
That's a good question. 

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I were to go back 15 years ago 
when I first fell into this 

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industry, you learning would 
have meant something like a 

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PowerPoint slide with the next 
button and a quiz at the end of 

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it. 
And it would have been built in 

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a tool like at the time 
articulate Studio, which was a 

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PowerPoint plug-in. 
And then, eventually storyline 

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and I think for a lot of people 
in this industry, people who are

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Newer tend to think of 
e-learning as something you 

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build in a tool like storyline 
or Captivate or rise for me when

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you really think about, you 
learning as electronic learning 

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and you take a more holistic 
approach. 

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It's anything that's delivered 
on a digital device, whether 

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it's YouTube or even listening 
to a podcast like this could be 

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considered a form of e-learning.
It's any sort of learning 

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experience that's consumed on a 
digital device. 

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What I always try to promote is 
that e-learning is really a 

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broad term. 
That means a lot of different, 

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Types of synchronous 
asynchronous interactive and 

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passive experiences 100%. 
And I love it that you said 

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broad because you know, most of 
the time, the people the guests 

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that they have on the show and I
know the audience to the edtech 

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like ask them to Define edtech 
and you get a different answer 

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every time it's completely broad
but I love asking this question 

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because it gives you Insight 
it's into the community and 

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insights into what's expected 
and that type of ecosystem. 

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So I love asking that question. 
Yeah, I think with a lot of 

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these Terms whether it's micro 
learning or e-learning or 

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edtech. 
We're really good at groupthink 

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in this industry when it comes 
to those terms. 

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And absolutely. 
Yeah. 

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I've yet to have somebody really
clearly defined the difference 

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between Ed Tech and e-learning, 
they're all educational 

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platforms that are digital. 
So and I kind of you at all as 

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one of the same thing and of 
course there's categories within

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that but the big umbrella it's 
all the same. 

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Yes I agree with you. 
I totally think that it's a huge

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umbrella learning and sometimes 
it's hard for me and I'm kind of

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going off. 
Script a little bit here but 

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sure what I think about edtech 
and instructional technology, 

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those are synonymous to me but 
some people see them. 

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As two, different things 
structural technology can be 

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used in the classroom or outside
of the classroom, but Ed Tech in

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but also be used inside the 
classroom, but on the 

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peripheral, they're kind of 
synonymous but people see them 

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as two distinctly different 
things. 

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I was just thinking about that. 
When you're talking about 

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umbrella that you learning, I 
would agree with you. 

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I view them as synonymous as 
well. 

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We get more specific with the 
term. 

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You know, are we talking about 
learning management systems? 

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Or learning experience 
platforms. 

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That's where we start seeing 
differentiations. 

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But these terms in general, they
can mean many different things 

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depending on who you ask. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

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We can have a whole another 
podcast episode about semantics,

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and denotations, and 
connotations in the e-learning 

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world. 
Sure, we'll save that for 

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another day. 
So, I found it interesting that 

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when I read your book and also, 
I know that you talked about 

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this quite a bit, why the most 
of e-learning fails and why it 

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sucks. 
Why is it crab? 

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Like it is Is in 10. 
I can tell you just from 

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experiencing the corporate 
instructional designer role. 

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Now, I'm totally on your side 
about this. 

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I'm like most of it. 
Does suck in it fails, and it's 

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crap, like, the winners don't 
learn. 

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So why do you believe this and 
how do we fix it? 

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Yeah, I do believe that most 
corporate e-learning is crap. 

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Tell you the history of why? 
I say that every time I go get a

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haircut, the person cutting my 
hair inevitably, they're wanting

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to start a conversation and so 
they'll ask what do you do for a

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living? 
And I used to say I mean 

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e-learning designer and of 
course that didn't translate, or

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I'd say I'm an instructional 
designer, none of that would 

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translate. 
And so, one day, I told the 

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person cutting my hair and like,
you know, when you start a new 

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job and you have to sit at the 
computer and you have to go 

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through those courses to tell 
you, not to touch your 

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co-workers inappropriately and 
they immediately know exactly 

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what I'm talking. 
Yeah, that's the light bulbs go 

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off. 
Uh-huh. 

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And I go. 
Yeah. 

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I designed those and then I 
realized that's not the right 

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thing to say because then they 
Immediately you're dead to them 

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at that point. 
So now I tell people I help 

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companies design better versions
of those courses but there's 

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this visceral reaction with 
people who don't work in this 

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industry, when you say CBT or 
online training or 

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computer-based course, and it's 
because they've had to sit 

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through these really awful 
poorly designed learning 

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experiences that are more about 
checking off a box. 

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Then it is about learning 
something new, and I think for a

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lot of people and a lot of 
organizations, they've 

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translated that into Two people 
hate e-learning and I don't 

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think that people hate 
e-learning. 

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I mean people love YouTube. 
We go to YouTube all the time 

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when we love Tick-Tock. 
I'm right. 

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That's all right person, that's 
all that's all e-learning but 

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people hate is bad e-learning. 
So I think most corporate 

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training sucks and I think as 
instructional designers and 

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learning professionals the 
sooner we can all realize that 

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we've probably been doing our 
Learners and organizations a 

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disservice with some of the and 
I'm using air quotes here 

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training we've been creating the
the Sooner we can get to 

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designing things that are 
effective and we can design 

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e-learning that is engaging and 
effective and valuable. 

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It just means not simply 
converting power point slides 

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into a course. 
And next button and a job is 

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Bored Bored. 
Totally, I've experienced that 

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I'm like, are we all have how 
you know, the teacher and me is 

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a screaming on the inside when I
hear that come out of somebody's

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mouth. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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So I think I think what you're 
saying here is we fix it by 

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evaluating what we did wrong in 
previous iterations or figure 

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out ways in which were impactful
to the learner and make it 

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meaningful to the learner 
because you know, it's through 

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change behavior that people will
learn, that's what they learn. 

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So you have to make your 
e-learning like that and 

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speaking of great resources and 
things to look at when you're 

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doing this, tell us a bit about 
all these different and Devers 

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you are involved in. 
You do so much out on the 

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Community. 
You have a very learning 

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designers Community, you have 
your book, you have the academy.

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First of all, how do you do all 
this and second of all tell us 

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about them. 
Yeah, so before I started 

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freelancing full time, I used to
manage a large instructional 

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design team at a major 
technology company. 

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And when I first was hired into 
that role, the team, we were 

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primarily focused at the time on
e-learning design and 

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development for the 
organization. 

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And none of these people had any
experience. 

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Designing or developing 
e-learning. 

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And so I spent the first six 
months of my time at this 

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company, upskilling everyone on 
my process and after I finish 

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doing that I realized oh I think
I have a book here. 

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It was a combination or the 
culmination of everything that I

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had taught myself but till that 
point in my career. 

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And so the first thing that I 
spent like nine months writing, 

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the e-learning designers 
handbook, that's my primary book

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and it was meant to be a 
resource to provide Not just 

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Theory. 
There's you know there's so much

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Theory out there which is 
important. 

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But understanding the theory is 
only as good as your ability to 

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apply it practically in the work
environment and so I wanted. 

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Yeah, so I wanted to provide 
really practical down-to-earth 

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tips advice processes on how to 
design and develop e-learning 

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and so it started with the book 
and then I started freelancing 

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full-time in 2019 and I quit 
that job. 

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I wanted to continue to expand 
that offering in different 

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That's beyond the book. 
And so, I had done some courses 

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with LinkedIn learning and 
through that experience, I 

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really kind of cut my teeth on. 
How do you create kind of an 

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online course from that 
perspective? 

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Like a video-based course, 
teaching, people stuff. 

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And so I used my experiences 
from that, that's ultimately 

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what became the e-learning 
designers Academy which has now 

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evolved even further into our 
free community and we do online 

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courses and cohort programs. 
And so it all started with me 

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trying to upskill a team of Nani
learning designers, Well, 

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designers into e learning and 
instructional design, and it's 

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kind of just snowballed ever 
since. 

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What an incredible journey and 
so many different things that 

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have come out of that. 
And I want people to pay 

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attention, when you said 
initially, you train people 

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about your process. 
Yeah. 

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How you are going to do things 
like intake and development in 

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the different phases and stages 
of e-learning. 

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Instructional design developing 
like a course, I love that 

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because people don't realize 
like you can't come into a 

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meeting with a smiie and expect 
them to understand exactly how 

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this Whole thing is going to 
work, you really have to lay it 

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out for them. 
Yeah and that goes back to the 

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point about the theory to your 
point. 

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You can't walk into a meeting 
with a stakeholder in a subject 

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matter expert and your business 
partners. 

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And just think that your 
understanding of the theory is 

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going to get stuff. 
Done so much of what we do is 

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instructional designers, in my 
opinion. 

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And my experience is so much 
more than just Theory, it's 

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project management, stakeholder 
management. 

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And then using the tools and the
visual design and there's also 

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much that goes into when we're 
Talking about me learning. 

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There's so much that goes into 
it Beyond. 

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Just the theory. 
Yes, the theory is the 

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foundation of everything that we
do, but like, actually get it 

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done, there's a lot more. 
Absolutely. 

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You know, when I talk to 
teachers that are coming into 

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the field and they're like, I 
have no idea what a d is. 

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I'm like, you do a day every 
day. 

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When you develop your lessons, 
that's a d, you're putting into 

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play, for analyzing, your 
learner's are doing the needs 

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assessment. 
You're developing something that

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you want some sort of change 
Behavior around. 

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You're designing, it, you're 
putting Get out there, you 

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implement it and then you 
evaluate it based off of either,

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what an assessment or you're 
getting feedback from the 

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students, how they enjoyed it. 
That's a d, you're doing it. 

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This is up in the different and 
the different way. 

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Exactly. 
So yeah, definitely loves it. 

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That comment around the theories
and how you can't just say, oh, 

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I'm using adding our Museum Sam 
or you know, I'm using Merrill's

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principles. 
I don't say that. 

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I'm just doing it, right? 
Exactly. 

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Yeah. 
All right, for the people in the

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audience who are new to this 
industry, Tree or this ecosystem

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of e-learning and everything 
that it encompasses. 

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What are the top three pieces of
advice you would offer for the 

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newbies that are jumping into 
this field? 

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With ice, bring sweet 11, start 
creating e-learning, content, 

295
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,400
faster easier. 
And with more pleasure I spring,

296
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:14,100
sweet has everything you need to
fall in love with your authoring

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00:15:14,300 --> 00:15:17,100
tools for creating beautiful 
interactive courses. 

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I Spring Library with ready to 
go design assets. 

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00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:25,400
Treat yourself to less stress, 
less complexity more drive, more

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00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,600
possibilities and more love for 
your work. 

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00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:38,300
Try, I spring sweet 11 for free.
Oh gosh, um, I know, I know it's

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like pick three, just three, I 
guess. 

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My number one thing would be in 
this applies, whether you're 

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doing e-learning or not as focus
on not what people need to know.

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But what people need to do in a 
workplace setting, which is 

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mostly what corporate lnd is, 
people don't need to know 

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anything, they need to do things
on the job. 

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00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,100
Yes. 
And so focus on doing first and 

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that extends, not just To what 
you're doing by yourself as an 

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instructional designer. 
But even when you're interacting

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with your stakeholders and your 
smi's, don't talk about knowing 

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things talk about doing things, 
I would say my number 2 tip 

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would be be willing to talk your
stakeholders and subject matter 

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experts out of training and it 
seems counterintuitive to talk 

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people out of. 
I love this tip needing to be 

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there, but I think to be truly 
objective, we have to be willing

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to admit. 
The training is not the answer, 

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so often trainings, not the 
answer and being willing to push

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back and talk them out of 
training and ask Mark Britt, he 

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00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,700
works for the learning Guild and
he posted something on Twitter 

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00:16:45,700 --> 00:16:47,700
the other day. 
I can't, I'm going to butcher 

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00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:50,900
what he said, but he said one of
his favorite questions to ask 

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his stakeholders or smees is 
what if training wasn't an 

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option, what would you do? 
And just that little thought, 

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experiment, makes you question. 
How else can we solve the 

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performance issue? 
And maybe you realize that 

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trainings. 
Needed at all. 

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And then I think my third and 
final tip would be that kind of 

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going back to our previous 
little conversation. 

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About the theory is that 
recognize that specifically 

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e-learning development is just 
as much instructional design and

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learning theory as it is 
multimedia, development, 

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graphic, design visual design 
knowing how to edit audio and 

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video and bring the other 
Graphics or edit photos, and 

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00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,200
create your own Graphics or edit
Graphics. 

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That's a big part of it. 
And I think one of the big 

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points I make towards the end of
the book and I've made this 

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00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:41,800
before, is that e-learning is a 
tool for Visual Communications. 

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It's a piece of potentially 
interactive multimedia, and if a

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00:17:45,500 --> 00:17:48,600
course, doesn't look good. 
If you're not using the 

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opportunity to use your slide, 
your screens to show your 

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learner's what you're trying to 
say. 

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And if it's not intuitive and 
easy to use and it doesn't 

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matter. 
How instructionally sounded owes

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00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,300
all those other things that have
to support its Effectiveness 

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00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:04,700
from an instructional design 
standpoint because of the 

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nature. 
Sure of what it is. 

348
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A piece of interactive digital 
multimedia, if that makes any 

349
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sense. 
Yes it does. 

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And I'm so happy that you listed
that as number three because 

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there's a lot of conversations I
hear from people they think, 

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00:18:16,700 --> 00:18:20,600
because if they are a guru in 
some of these areas that's going

353
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,400
to give them the job or that's 
all they need. 

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I try to deter people from 
thinking the technology is the 

355
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only thing you need because it's
not. 

356
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:32,700
It's the supporting Foundation 
upon, which you are doing these 

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00:18:32,700 --> 00:18:34,200
things. 
Great advice. 

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Absolutely. 
Wonderful advice for people who 

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are new into the field. 
And along with that, you have 

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all these great resources, the 
wonderful book and you have 

361
00:18:43,300 --> 00:18:46,700
places for people to go. 
But as yourself, where do you go

362
00:18:46,700 --> 00:18:51,600
to learn where your favorite 
resources for me when I need to 

363
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,000
learn something new? 
Honestly? 

364
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,100
YouTube is probably my go-to 
spot. 

365
00:18:56,700 --> 00:18:59,500
Google it and find a YouTube 
video that teaches me how to do 

366
00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:00,400
it. 
Yep. 

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Catherine Lombardo Z. 
She's another person in our 

368
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industry, who's been 
Instructional design for ever 

369
00:19:06,100 --> 00:19:08,600
and ever and ever and she's an 
author and thought leader and 

370
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all this great stuff. 
And one of the things when I 

371
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worked at a previous company, we
hired her as a consultant and 

372
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one of the things that she 
helped me understand is that as 

373
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people they get more extensive 
in their their level of 

374
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,600
expertise of a particular thing,
their need for formal training. 

375
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:29,200
Reduces it becomes more about 
resources and your network and 

376
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:30,600
all of that stuff. 
And so, one of the things I've 

377
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,100
learned about myself is that as 
being a deeper level of 

378
00:19:33,108 --> 00:19:36,200
expertise in a given thing, It 
becomes less about your need for

379
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,400
formal training and more about 
Connections and network and 

380
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,400
resources. 
And so for me I learned a lot 

381
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,700
from my network of people or 
when I go to a conference it's 

382
00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:47,800
more about seeing other people 
in the industry and connecting 

383
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,200
and learning from them and 
seeing what they're doing and 

384
00:19:50,500 --> 00:19:52,900
and when I just need to learn 
something quick and easy it's 

385
00:19:52,900 --> 00:19:56,700
usually YouTube. 
I love it so simple yet. 

386
00:19:56,700 --> 00:20:00,100
So impactful. 
Yeah, that YouTube is something 

387
00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:02,200
else. 
I'll tell you and I could have a

388
00:20:02,208 --> 00:20:04,700
whole conversation around how 
college is going to become. 

389
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,000
I like you too, but we'll save 
that for another day, honestly. 

390
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,500
It's just it's amazing. 
Judges will become obsolete 

391
00:20:10,500 --> 00:20:12,600
because of YouTube me. 
Yes, exactly. 

392
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,000
That's what I meant to say. 
Yeah, it's just crazy that I 

393
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,900
can't wait to see. 
Like, I tell people all the 

394
00:20:17,908 --> 00:20:20,500
time, I can't wait to become the
dinosaur in the room because I 

395
00:20:20,500 --> 00:20:22,700
want to see what these next 
Generations are going to do. 

396
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,000
I cannot wait. 
It's going to be so exciting, 

397
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,700
sit back, think more and more 
people are going to be going 

398
00:20:29,700 --> 00:20:32,800
against the grain. 
If you will of what people like 

399
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:34,700
you and me, were gold is what 
you're supposed. 

400
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,200
To do supposed to go to college 
and I'm supposed to get a bunch 

401
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:38,800
of debt and then go get a 
corporate job. 

402
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,200
And I think a lot of kids, 
nowadays are going to go against

403
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,400
that and make their own way and 
learn things more practically 

404
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,300
rather than going to college and
spending thousands of dollars. 

405
00:20:50,300 --> 00:20:52,400
If there was a great story that 
I'll say this real quickly, 

406
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,200
there's a great story can 
remember where I saw it. 

407
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,000
But there was this kid, he was 
like 19 years old, and he wanted

408
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,800
to learn about coding. 
And, you know, a lot of colleges

409
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,500
you can just walk in and go sit 
in a classroom and listen to a 

410
00:21:03,500 --> 00:21:06,600
professor, right? 
And never paint and he went and 

411
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,900
learned how to code by going to 
these college classes and 

412
00:21:10,900 --> 00:21:13,000
sitting in the back pretending 
to be a student. 

413
00:21:13,100 --> 00:21:15,500
Of course he never earned a 
degree or any credit hours, but 

414
00:21:15,500 --> 00:21:18,400
he learned what he needed to be 
able to go get a job, you know, 

415
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,300
for free first time, that's 
crazy to us being so ingrained 

416
00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:25,300
in the how we were raised. 
But to me, I love that. 

417
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,100
Why not the ethics of that are 
questionable? 

418
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,000
Yeah, I remember, I remember I 
went and saw you know, when my 

419
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,700
friends had college classes, I 
just go sit with them. 

420
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,900
And then the classroom and learn
about whatever and the professor

421
00:21:37,900 --> 00:21:39,300
didn't care, you know, I don't 
know. 

422
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:41,800
So yeah, I mean, those big 
lecture Halls, how do you know 

423
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,000
that? 
There's somebody who's not 

424
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,300
supposed to be there. 
How do you know, you're not like

425
00:21:45,300 --> 00:21:48,100
attendance, like, 300 people 
sometimes in those rooms. 

426
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,100
Absolutely, but I love that 
store. 

427
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:52,800
I know, there's a story like Ed 
surgery or somebody came out 

428
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,200
with recently about the students
that don't want to go to 

429
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:56,600
college. 
And they're talking about the 

430
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,900
Avenues are taking like, whether
that's your trade schools, are 

431
00:21:58,900 --> 00:22:01,500
there going directly into the 
workforce After High School? 

432
00:22:01,500 --> 00:22:03,700
Because they've gone to a 
special Academy or something, 

433
00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:06,200
where they learned the skills. 
The trade and they just can go 

434
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,500
right into it. 
I love those alternative 

435
00:22:08,500 --> 00:22:11,500
options, you know, as a teacher 
I had so many students who I 

436
00:22:11,508 --> 00:22:13,700
tried to tell them about college
and then I realized like that 

437
00:22:13,700 --> 00:22:15,600
was a losing battle. 
They don't want to go to 

438
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,100
college, they want to do other 
things and they have other 

439
00:22:18,100 --> 00:22:20,700
creative mindsets to do those 
other things. 

440
00:22:21,100 --> 00:22:23,400
Normally, the point them, the 
resources for that. 

441
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,000
Yeah. 
And I mean, I feel like at least

442
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,900
my generation growing up in the 
90s and then graduating in the 

443
00:22:29,900 --> 00:22:33,500
early 2000s from high school, 
you know, there was so much 

444
00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:36,300
pressure about college. 
And getting a degree and all of 

445
00:22:36,300 --> 00:22:38,300
that is not to get weird about 
it. 

446
00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:40,500
But it's just a social 
construct, you know what I mean?

447
00:22:40,500 --> 00:22:42,800
And I think a lot of people are 
realizing. 

448
00:22:43,100 --> 00:22:46,300
I know this, I mean my degree in
criminal justice, I transitioned

449
00:22:46,300 --> 00:22:49,200
into training and development, 
the year, I graduated with my 

450
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,000
criminal justice degree. 
I've never used that thing and 

451
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,100
it cost me an arm and a leg. 
And if I can go back in time, I 

452
00:22:55,100 --> 00:22:57,100
would totally have not done 
that. 

453
00:22:57,500 --> 00:22:59,500
I know. 
And I completely agree with you.

454
00:22:59,500 --> 00:23:02,800
So ingrained in me as well and 
I'm from the same generation and

455
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,900
I'm like, what was I thinking? 
Like, what was I doing? 

456
00:23:06,900 --> 00:23:08,500
Because what you were told to 
thing, you know? 

457
00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:11,100
Yes. 
But your that's exactly age, you

458
00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:11,800
know. 
Yes. 

459
00:23:12,100 --> 00:23:14,100
Thank you Boomers and gen xers, 
parents. 

460
00:23:14,100 --> 00:23:16,800
Yeah. 
Thank you so much that all to 

461
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,700
you for all the drama. 
Yeah. 

462
00:23:20,700 --> 00:23:22,400
That could be a separate podcast
as yes. 

463
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,200
Absolutely. 
We have to find somebody who's 

464
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,000
involved in the psychology of 
like Millennials and all of, you

465
00:23:28,008 --> 00:23:30,000
know, there's any holes, 
whatever Generation. 

466
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,600
All right, so you've done a lot 
of great things. 

467
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,200
You've been in the industry for 
quite a bit. 

468
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,100
Is there anything? 
Thing coming up for you or there

469
00:23:36,100 --> 00:23:39,600
any new Endeavors on the horizon
and books or otherwise that you 

470
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,400
have coming up that you're 
willing to share and tell us 

471
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,500
about yeah sure. 
So I had a friend of me asking 

472
00:23:45,500 --> 00:23:47,400
for a friend of mine asked if I 
was going to write a third 

473
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,300
edition of my book and they 
didn't occur to me and then I 

474
00:23:50,300 --> 00:23:52,200
started thinking I'm like oh 
yeah I think I could write a 

475
00:23:52,208 --> 00:23:55,500
third edition so I might do that
but I don't know if that'll be 

476
00:23:55,500 --> 00:23:58,900
next year. 
I'm working on a bunch of new 

477
00:23:58,900 --> 00:24:01,500
course content for the 
e-learning designers Academy 

478
00:24:01,500 --> 00:24:04,700
which will go live next year. 
So yeah. 

479
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,800
Keeping busy with that stuff and
by next year, you mean this 

480
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,600
year. 
Yeah, fine 23. 

481
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:15,000
Yeah, I know, I know, yeah, he's
gonna take a good month or two 

482
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,200
before we start. 
I know I'm gonna see ya. 

483
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,100
I'm gonna write 2022 on all my 
stuff in my little notes for 

484
00:24:21,100 --> 00:24:24,000
quite a while. 
Well, that's good to hear. 

485
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,200
I'm definitely gonna be first in
line for the new book and the 

486
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:31,100
you learning academy. 
I know gets rave reviews, I can 

487
00:24:31,100 --> 00:24:33,400
only imagine the content that 
you're developing, and how 

488
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,900
Stellar it is. 
It should happen. 

489
00:24:36,500 --> 00:24:38,800
Yes, its yes. 
It shouldn't be good. 

490
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,800
So my final two questions that I
ask on the show. 

491
00:24:42,900 --> 00:24:46,300
It's really it's like it's two 
in one and then a third. 

492
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,600
So is there anything that we 
missed? 

493
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,300
Our is there anything else you'd
like to share with the audience 

494
00:24:52,500 --> 00:24:56,400
and get out your crystal ball? 
And tell us what the future? 

495
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,600
Be learning looks like. 
So what do you miss and what is 

496
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,900
the future of e-learning? 
Gosh, I don't know if we missed 

497
00:25:02,900 --> 00:25:04,600
anything, we went something 
else. 

498
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,000
A lot of different directions. 
You know what, here's what I say

499
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,200
when I get asked the question 
about like what do you think the

500
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,800
future of lndia's? 
And I regard that question the 

501
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,900
same as when you're in an 
interview and they go where do 

502
00:25:16,900 --> 00:25:19,600
you see yourself in five years? 
And my answer is always like 

503
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,600
hell if I know I really don't 
know I don't have a crystal 

504
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,400
ball. 
I could have never predicted 

505
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,100
myself in this industry so I try
not to predict it because you 

506
00:25:27,108 --> 00:25:30,500
never know what new technology 
is going to pop up or buzzword 

507
00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:33,100
that's going to totally 
revolutionize or change the 

508
00:25:33,100 --> 00:25:35,600
industry. 
And so I am one of those people 

509
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,900
who just rides the wave wherever
it takes us and adapt as I need 

510
00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:41,200
to. 
But I guess I don't know if I 

511
00:25:41,208 --> 00:25:45,700
were to say one thing, I guess 
what I'd say is everyone's 

512
00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:49,400
talking about AR and VR but I 
think yes, we're always out from

513
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,300
that being he to, I feel the 
same way. 

514
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:54,900
I feel like it's been a buzz for
a while, right? 

515
00:25:55,100 --> 00:25:58,900
Yeah, it's just the technology 
is not cheap enough impractical.

516
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,900
I don't know if our industry has
figured out. 

517
00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:02,400
Exactly. 
The Right. 

518
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,800
Use case for AR and Are you know
what? 

519
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,800
I'm going to say? 
Hell, if I know, I don't know. 

520
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:08,700
Yeah. 
All right. 

521
00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:10,800
That's a great answer. 
I absolutely love it. 

522
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,500
I have no idea where this thing 
is going and I'm going to get my

523
00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:16,700
surfboard and ride this wave and
see what happens. 

524
00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:19,800
I love it exact 100%, it's 
easier. 

525
00:26:20,900 --> 00:26:22,900
I mean, I'm looking forward to 
seeing what happens. 

526
00:26:22,900 --> 00:26:27,000
I'm like you, I can make 
predictions but I really have no

527
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:28,300
idea. 
What's next. 

528
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,800
I mean, it's almost like five 
years in this world, you know? 

529
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,300
I mean, like nothing was 
predictable. 

530
00:26:33,300 --> 00:26:37,000
So Actly and I totally feel that
way proposed pandemic. 

531
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,500
I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't 
believe what's happening and how

532
00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:41,700
instructional designers and 
e-learning developers. 

533
00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:43,100
All these people have come to 
the Forefront. 

534
00:26:43,100 --> 00:26:45,900
Like people actually know who we
are, we're not just sitting 

535
00:26:45,900 --> 00:26:48,400
behind a desk or not some hermit
in some office area. 

536
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,900
We are people who know things 
and we can do things. 

537
00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:53,900
It's fantastic, I love it. 
Yeah, for sure. 

538
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,500
Well Tim I can't thank you 
enough for your time and coming 

539
00:26:58,500 --> 00:27:00,300
on the show and sharing all the 
things. 

540
00:27:00,300 --> 00:27:02,000
And having this conversation 
with me, it's been really 

541
00:27:02,008 --> 00:27:03,700
enlightening and really fun as 
well. 

542
00:27:03,900 --> 00:27:04,700
Yeah. 
Thank you. 

543
00:27:04,708 --> 00:27:07,500
You so much for having me. 
Of course and happy New Year. 

544
00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:15,400
Yes you've just experienced an 
another amazing episode of Ed 

545
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:16,500
up. 
Ed Tech. 

546
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:22,500
Be sure to visit our website at 
Ed up edtech.com to get all the 

547
00:27:22,500 --> 00:27:25,300
updates on the latest edtech 
kapiti. 

548
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,400
See you next time.