The relationship that people have to other people's bodies,
the way that we can have our own relationship with someone else's
appearance and what that means to us if they change the way
that they look is really interesting.
When we're talking about things like women and like, you know
who, who does your body belong to?
Yeah, intriguing. It's not that intriguing.
I'm it's just almost. It's one of those things that I
can't even by acknowledging it, it makes it look like I care.
In this way this is. The thing and I don't care, I
don't care but it's hard. Do you make me care?
Do is this normal or is this mad and really?
Freaky inside normal normal. I think it's normal.
It's normal. Don't tell me if you disagree.
Goes without saying you're listening to goes without saying
with Sophie and Wing. I'm Wing.
And I'm Sophie. What an amazing time to be
alive. We are so back and unpacking The
Dirty word of all the demonic jealousy, envy, Feeling like you
hate your friend because you want to be her maybe.
Feeling like you hate yourself because you don't want to be her
maybe. I really feel like we went in a
lot of different avenues but did everything justice here.
I feel good about this. I like this episode.
I really hope you do too if you're feeling a little a bit
kind of shameful, I feel like this will help normalize and
validate some of the kind of uglier emotions that just can't
help but pop up sometimes. Enjoy the episode.
Thank you so much for being here.
Sending lots of love out to you. Hello.
How are you?
How are you doing? Good, How are you?
Good. Good.
You know, reverse. I was thinking earlier, but we
probably didn't make very clear in the last episode.
That's what we're pre. Recording these, that much I
think was said, yeah, I feel like we didn't say how nice it
was to have so many messages being like, where are you?
Can't wait. Oh my God, yeah, so nice.
Posting on Instagram and everyone's been really nice and
I really like when people are a bit funny.
I'm like, I can't remember it. Like someone said something and
I thought that's funny. Do you remember what it was?
No. Okay.
But sometimes I just think that's a funny little.
Yeah. Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, all the time. It was nice to know that people
actually do give a shit that like, when we don't record,
there are people being like, we miss you, where are you?
Like, that was incredibly, incredibly nice.
And when it's like we're coming back, people are like we're
hearing can't wait. Cute.
Thank you everyone for being here.
Thank you so much. And thank you for bearing with
and just like sticking with us and like if you're listening to
this now, thank you for just like going with that and being
like they're back now. Gonna still listen something
about it. OK, so we had like the whispers
of a conversation and we were kind of like, zip, yeah, lock
that, reload it into an episode because this is something we've
spoken about a bit. But yeah, like a fair bit, yeah.
But we kind of had the whisper of a new angle somewhere.
I just feel like this is a juicy topic.
Why I always feel like it's kind of a fail safe is because as
much as it's like there's nothing new in our personal
lives for us to get off of our chests, I always think it's
something so fascinating and kind of, it often goes without
saying, Like no one is speaking about it.
Not in the way that I feel like I need anyway.
I feel like I'm not seeing it talked about enough and it's
jealousy which you're from the title probably, but.
And the whole intro that we would have done, yeah, but it's
jealousy, guys. That's.
What I'll say, yeah, I don't know.
I just think it's a bit. It's kind of like up there with
the top villains, I think. I would say, is it not, is it
not #1 villain? Because we were sort of trying
to be like before, what are we talking about?
We were like, is it friendship jealousy?
Is it social media jealousy or is it like relationship
jealousy? Which one is kind of like the
worst one? What you know, what is the topic
we talk about today? Because we have spoke much
jealousy before, but yet as you were saying, no one, it feels
often like no one really speaks about it.
It definitely. There's always more to be said.
The thing that we say about it all the time is like fucking how
it feels bad when you feel jealous.
Like it's the feeling that we know that everybody feels at the
same time. No one is allowed to speak about
it because you're having to kind of admit not only like a fault
in yourself, which is embarrassing, but like maybe
that you see something that you want in someone else, which is
like probably one of the hardest things that you have to do.
Like that a sort of this society anyway that's like built around
comparison would set up that thing to be the hardest thing to
do to be like this person has a thing that I I want.
So no one really talks about it, I don't think.
But we were kind of social media stuff I feel like is the easiest
one to talk about to deal with. I would say, Oh, right, turn
your phone off, turn your phone off.
It's not like real. Just get off Instagram.
Yeah, fair enough. Block them, meet them, get them
out. And it's a horrible thing that
is then just made even more horrible almost where it's like
a friendship being made horrible or relationship being made
horrible. That feels a bit more personal.
It's almost like with the social media stuff, it's very much all
in your own head and you're probably not going to ever see
that girl in your real life. What did you expect?
Right. Yeah.
You're kind of asking for it, which I often am.
But then in your relationships, it's like, not only have I got
this thing going on in my head, but also now I kind of hate
myself and my friend. Great.
Yeah, you've ruined Gross a real thing.
Oh God, it's bad. It's so horrible, but it's so
you're not. Talking about it.
Yeah, it's it's. Never ending Stew?
It's not what this is. I don't know if people keep
saying it. I think it was something about
someone made a never ending Stew.
Or was it never ending soup and a blinding Stew?
I keep getting those mixed up. What the hell are you talking
about? Is that Internet stuff?
Yeah, but it's also people are saying it in my real life.
Blinding Stew. Blinding Stew is the one I keep
saying. What?
It. Doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter, but it is a never ending soup of a topic to
me personally. It's always exciting.
I'll never turn it down. Also, it just feels so private
and like personal and raw. And I kind of feel like if you
dug inside inside someone's journal, what percentage of that
is them expressing jealousy? Because I kind of feel like even
your journals A risky place to put it, but is there anywhere
safe to confess that you're jealous of someone or something?
Not really, not really. And that's why especially with
like friendship, jealousy and even like like an online thing.
It's why bitching and like online, hey, is such a huge
thing because the easiest thing to do that or that pretty much
the only way to express this emotion that we have is to OK,
so say there's someone that I'm jealous of.
The easiest way for me to process that is to be like, Oh
my God, did you see her? Blah, blah, blah, blah.
Rather than be like, fuck, I felt really threatened when she
did this thing. I'm going to like, maybe look at
myself and to express it that way.
Never going to fucking happen. Should be happening.
Should be, but we're not allowed as women to be anything other
than like cutesy kind or the time super compassionate and
also like I feel like we were. Raised.
No. And also kind of in this moment,
there is an emphasis or like an expectation on women to be like
fully formed self accepting humans in the name of feminism.
And like there is an expectation of well, don't hate the way that
you look. That's so anti feminist of you.
No, no, don't. Why are you wasting time being
jealous of another woman? Like don't you know we live in a
patriarchy? Or like I was looking up to this
influencer and she confessed that she was insecure about her
bum. And I was so disappointed.
Do you know what I mean? Like there is a kind of
judgement, like a moral judgement.
It is. Disappointing as well.
I think you can be disappointed that someone that you view as
beautiful doesn't like themselves.
That is, I'll put my hands up. I'm disappointed.
That's quite sad because it's people that I aspire to look
like in some sick way, they don't even like themselves.
It's not necessarily like the pressure is on that person to
love themselves and be happy with how they look.
I think it just speaks fucking volumes about the sort of like
impossibility of beauty that the that we live in, that that's
been set up for us. You can never reach it.
I don't think we we can or should speak about right now,
but like almost within the age of Ozempic, the kind of Monjaro
girls on the Internet that there's so much conversation
around. I used to really look up to her
and she really made me feel good about my body and now she's.
I don't know what you're talking.
About and so like almost that influences all, like everyone
being on Ozempic or whatever, and the way that that's kind of
just everywhere and also online, the relationship that people
have to other people's bodies and like how we can be.
I'm, I'm not saying this is good or bad or anything.
I'm not making judgement on it, just almost presenting it as
like part of this thing. The way that we can have our own
relationship with someone else's appearance and what that means
to us if they change the way that they look is really
interesting. When we're talking about things
like women and like, you know who, who does your body belong
to? Yeah, but it's that's the
problem of celebrities, especially like women
celebrities being emblems of specific things, of being like
this is the plus size influencer.
This is the feminist singer. This is even just like, this is
the tall blonde singer. This is the short blonde singer
that's Taylor Swift Sabrina carpet so if you.
Do want No. I've got people in my.
Head yeah, it's like we have emblems of people and that is
the problem that then if so you start seeing yourself as them.
If you're a tall blonde, whatever you start yourself in
Taylor's blah blah blah blah. Like that is why there maybe is
a little bit of a problem with women being reduced to these
like cookie cutter versions of themselves because then they are
speaking for like entire like versions of a girl that like
view them that like feel like they can't change all of the
stuff that their value is only in that one thing.
That is where a large part of the problem comes from comes
from, especially when it comes down to things like you are a
plus size singer that loses a lot of weight.
Then people critique you because you were the thing that was
empowering so many people. That's complicated on so many
levels. I think that's the thing.
It's complicated. And what surprise, surprise,
surprise, the complicated stuff demonises women.
Always women take the brunt of something.
Well, men don't have to be emblems.
Men don't have to be emblems. They get to be themselves.
To form attachments to other men and cling to them like fucking
lifeboats in this bizarre patriarchy.
It's just not the same. No, it's not the same.
It doesn't mean as much. They don't have the same
relationships. They don't have the same
awareness of what they look like in their value and their
relationships and how they compare to their peers.
And all of this stuff is not the same.
Good start saying. Yeah.
And it's kind of what you were saying about women becoming
emblems of like, just stereotypes rather than like,
full human individuals. It made me think of this is not
really relevant. But in New Girl, when there was
a conversation about the two main girls having fringes.
Yeah. Yeah.
And like how that was so like, Oh my God, I can't believe they
let the two of us have bangs. Yeah.
So it must be so confusing to the audience to have two
characters with with brown hair and and bangs.
Whatever. It's just like.
It's great look by the way, I must say.
Beautiful. What a great.
Look, they both can't. Be topped.
Yeah. I don't know.
It's just no wonder that there's like not much room to speak
about something that feels so dirty.
I just feel like jealousy is such a dirty word and I love a
dirty word. It is something really, it just
feels like like if you were to say, oh, there's there's this
girl I'm really jealous of my mate said this blah, blah, blah.
It just you've got me like that. I'm.
Yeah, it's just like. Is because it's just so in the
dark. It's so fucking in the dark.
Like I can probably count on one hand the amount of times that
someone has like that. I've had that conversation
really of someone being like, I'm really jealous of this
person and like going into it. That's not a conversation I've
had that many times. No, I said publicly on this
podcast, I'm really jealous of Moya.
Do you remember? Which actually is not that.
Person. That's so interesting because
you never said the name. I did.
I did say the name because I think about it often.
No, no, you're thinking of someone else that I didn't say
the name. OK, injuring because I remember
you saying that you're really jealous of of this girl, an
influencer and you wouldn't say the name and I was.
Like I'm still I'm still jealous of her and I still won't say the
name, but I will say more because it feels like hearted.
And that's the thing. Even that I'm ranking my it's
like I'm jealous of more in a way that I look at her and I
think can't be top. She's like, that's I mean, yeah,
it's perfect piece. That's that's a perfect piece
piece as in a masterpiece, not like a side piece.
That's the perfect thing that I'm looking at.
And I wish and that and that feels OK to throw away basically
because I was thinking sometimes it it comes back to haunt me and
I think a bit weird maybe that I vocalize that and I think it's
OK. It's all right.
I can vocalize that. Whereas if it's the other girl
that we were just that you said I didn't name, that fucking
stings. It can't.
I won't speak about it. Yeah, I can't.
I struggle, I think, to be jealous of people on social
media. That's good.
I don't. And how do you finish?
That man. Well, I don't follow any
influences. I don't think like my, my feed
is not my feed is very binary in terms of like people that I know
or celebrities that I love. Same.
Whereas influencers has a, there's such a middle ground
because it's like, OK, so there's like a, they just exist
in they're normal people that live that like their businesses
in creating a life that looks attainable but is unattainable.
That's obviously the whole job and that is a dirty business in
my mind, but also love the vibes.
But like that, that isn't what I'm seeing so much.
So I don't necessarily have like a load of people or I don't have
like people that I'm like, OK, that I don't know.
I just don't really, it's either people that like, I only really
follow people that like truly I'm like yeah, vibes like not.
I don't follow that many people. It's not even about following
them. But they're getting you on the
explore page I. Can see them though, they're
everywhere. They don't come to me on the
explore page. They.
Do my TikTok has got this specific thing?
Well, I can't even. Let's say this girl is called
any name. Sabrina Carpenter.
Let's call her any name. Any name So I have a little.
Look on any name and I think fuck me.
And then I keep looking just a little bit longer, that's what.
The most human thing to do. 60 to 90 seconds here, so sue me.
I hope my hands up. I saw something I thought was
interesting. Maybe I took a peek at the
captions and the comments. Yeah, big deal.
Two days later, any name has posted?
You checked out their post previously?
Want to take a look? You're on my home screen of my
phone. I'm not on the app.
You can came to me and you said Erin or Ali Kui can't take a
peek at my fine wares and I on a weekday.
Fine, Yes, I clicked, I clicked. Of course you do reinforced it.
But it's not in two days time any name comes back to me.
I can't help it. So also you're only doing what
it's designed to do, as we know. Like it's not like you're going
to get something rainy there. You're very much going with the
river that it's laid out. Yes, like I know.
Of course you do. I know.
I have just recalled at a time, yeah, I've just recalled a
horrible experience almost of the youth doing the saying the
thing of like, oh, and you clicked.
I don't think I've even spoken to you about this.
Did I tell you that I looked at the guy that I used to date
Instagram, who? He's got a new girlfriend who?
If I said where? Well, I would say to you, this
needs to get caught. Wow.
OK, so the big is a big one. It's a big name.
It's a big name, you know, and. What was so?
That was a sour taste for me. Well, what was crazy?
OK, so that's that's nothing to me having a shit like this guy
in what, 2 years? That's fine to me.
The thing that was the kicker, fucking crazy.
And This is why it's like that. The clicking is inevitable, but
the things that cause me jealousy are the things that,
like, feel a little bit more like, OK, that's actually about
me. Like like, OK, so oh God, I
don't know. So when I was.
Like when was there? This was like, this was like,
honestly, when I lived in my old house, this was like 3 months
ago. Fuck me.
Yeah, there's ages ago. OK, OK, Because I don't feel
anything about it, but I do. I do think it's just like social
media is a fucking dangerous game, especially when it's your
real life is like coming to you in this weird way.
It's like things I shouldn't know.
This guy lives in a different country for.
Example, really similar, not similar, but like I have a
really funny thing, a similar thing in this.
I can't say it on here, but OK. Yeah, yeah.
Intriguing. It's not that intriguing.
I'm it's just almost it's one of those things that I can't even
by acknowledging it, it makes it look like I care in this, but
this is the. Telling this is the thing and I
don't care. I don't care.
You make me care. It's not.
Also I do. Care in that this person was a
big deal to me in my life and also God.
It's it. Was a very near miss, yeah.
So this person is not in my life in any way.
Don't wish him great vibes. Like whatever didn't work out
between us. Yeah, we were on holiday
together and there was this moment where kind of was a
moment in my life where I realized this is not going to
work. We're in to like, completely
different. Like we're having two different
experiences, which was a moment where we stood by like, this
water and I was like, OK, so this is going to be like a bit
of a romantic moment. We're like sitting by the water
in the evening. And instead of saying something
romantic, I don't know if I've told this on the podcast before,
he said. I used to think Katy Perry was
really hot. Yes.
What He chose to say instead. And I thought, oh, OK, so I've
written a narrative because if he was on the same page as me,
that would not have been said in that moment.
That kind of speaks volumes to me.
Yeah. OK, cool.
I go on his page 2, There's 2 two years ago.
Think he's he's not Not relevant in my life at all.
No. But wish him well, go on his
page or type in his name fully typed in.
I don't follow him anymore. OK, So what?
Before we even keep going, what came over you then in that
moment? I genuinely think how he is.
OK. Wonder how he is, Wonder what's
going on. Wouldn't be the first time I've
done that. Two years.
I know, I know. Goodness me, that's just a
normal just, you know, I would like to see just.
Checking in. Not something I do that
regularly, but more than that. Well, it is intriguing
sometimes, isn't. It sometimes you think wonder
what's going on in your life. Yeah, but just, you know, how's
it going on that downhill slope you're on?
From your interaction. With me like you know how how's
the? Skating joke.
No, it was slow. We're just adding to the
character law here of this individual.
Yeah, I thought. Wonder how this dude is doing.
Went on his thing. Picture of a girl.
I click.
But just her, on her own. No, it it was just like a photo
of like. Of them.
No, not of them, but like it was sort of like I literally would
like her having a drink or something.
Oh right. So I was like, OK fucking click.
Yeah, just intrigued to see what's going on your.
Sister looks different. Dude is this normal or is this
mad? And really?
Freaky and sad normal. I think it's normal.
It's normal. Don't tell me if you disagree.
Clicked on the girl. She, she looks like you.
No, looks nothing like me. OK.
She is blonde though when I was blonde at the time.
So OK I was like OK fine all. Right, fine, I.
Would have been devastated if she did that like me now because
if she was just by reading bangs, it's just almost like.
We can't have two characters if you like me.
Bangs, you don't love me now, right?
So there's a photo that she posts of them standing by the
water. The same fucking scene,
basically. It is the same place.
No, no, but it's in in where he lives.
Yeah, yeah, where he lives. City by the water romantic
moment. And it was just really one of
those things of being like, OK, Did is that.
Like you saw water with her. Great.
Almost. Did you talk about Katy Perry
then? Maybe.
Did you say I think Katy Perry's hot?
Did you say that? Then?
No. But wait, can we say the bit
where he made it better by saying I don't think she's hot
anymore after she cut her hair and became a mother?
But he did say because I went, I clearly went, said did some
weird reaction and was like okay, freaking fine.
And then he said not anymore though.
And it's like. That make it better, yeah.
That's so much worse. So that was that.
Well, he's out there somewhere. So I do find jealousy on social
media, but it's just not influences that do to me girls
I've never met. No, but sometimes not even
influences just it's just beautiful girls.
No, but she wasn't wasn't a beautiful girl.
No, no, I don't mean, I mean for me.
She wasn't. She wasn't beautiful.
Sorry. But she was a beautiful girl.
But my point is, I'm not jealous of her beauty.
I'm jealous of the moment that she got that I would have wanted
totally. That's what it was and.
I it was you're inside the scene I constructed in my mind.
Yeah, you got it. And I got.
But you did too. Fucking to not even you know
this is not your boyfriend. This is a scrap.
Essentially, we can minimize. We can minimize, but also it was
a big, it was a big deal. It was.
It was a big. Deal.
It was a big deal, but just like, like you didn't want him
and I want. But I didn't want him after the
action. Like I did want him until there
were a load of actions that meant I didn't want him.
And that was a real point. That was like one of the
cementing decisions of like, okay, it wasn't just that
because that's actually also not that bad, but it was just a.
Moment. It feeds into a bigger thing,
doesn't it? There were so many weird things,
but. Look, these things happen.
Yeah, these things happen. I'm dying to hear what your one
was, what this can't say on air. Oh God, it just makes it.
It's almost like, am I writing a book about this?
It's almost if I didn't have a podcast.
No, but in the way of like if we didn't have a podcast and
whatever, it could be something that I mentioned in passing to
one or two friends. Totally.
Yeah, but all of a sudden it's like this meant so much to you,
hey, that you came to the pod and said I wouldn't mind saying
that in front of a microphone. But I also think that's the
lesson of having a podcast. Like, for example, that moment
did not mean that I almost forgot I did it because I
haven't mentioned it to you since it happened.
But suddenly with the microphone, things start coming
out, you know, like suddenly got things to say.
It doesn't mean you think about it every night.
No, definitely not. But isn't that funny when
sometimes it feels like almost the medium of which you deliver
information adds to the level of import?
It's like the difference between a text and a voice note.
Or a totally if. It's like I need to say this on
FaceTime versus like impersonally.
Break. Up like the medium is so
integral to It's like when we see a transcript of the episode,
it's like, whoa, in Britain, it sounds so brute, and I hope that
isn't how it comes off aloud. I'll tell you off air, OK on
that. I'll look forward to that.
This is almost. Don't.
It's actually, I couldn't tell you how, nothing it was it just
if you knew it. Too much for a podcast, too
little for real life I kind of get.
It it's totally nothing, but it's just the kind of thing
where it's too recognizable and it it's just not worth that.
OK, yeah, not worth the rest. OK, I'm liking where this is
going. Yeah, I do think it's
interesting thinking about when jealousy feels the worst.
It is like in terms of is it worth like we were having just
before we started the conversation of is it worse in a
relationship? Is it worse with your friends?
Like romantic jealousy versus like.
Feeling jealous of a friend. Yeah, I think it is.
Here was my take before we've recorded.
I don't know. I could be swayed either way.
Yeah, I think it's worse with a friend because with with a
romantic thing, you're expecting that feeling to come up like
you're expecting. OK, so we've made this weird
deal that there's two of us and there's no one else.
There's no like, which I have more scope to acknowledge it as
well. Yeah.
And it's also like, that is part of a healthy relationship
feeling that it's almost quite romantic and of like, obviously
in a fucked way, we've romanticized like that feeling
of like possessiveness and like, Oh my God, he felt jealous when
this person spoke to me, whatever the fuck, all of that
that. You do that way.
It's stunning, yeah. But that there is that.
And also then there's like the horrible I.
Don't want to be the one feeling jealous, obviously.
But also there's a bit of it that's like, it's not, but it
also kind of is. It's a part of the.
It's normal. It's normalized.
In a different way. Yeah, I was just listening.
Just probably recorded to Doja Khan, that jealous type.
Yeah, it sounds just like that. It's like there's a it's for
it's, it's a normal thing to be jealous in relationships.
That's fine. Obviously there are, there's it
can, you know, whatever, there's the spectrum to it.
You don't be feeling it too much, but like there is space
within that. Whereas with friendships, it's
like there's only certain ones that kind of trigger that it's
not. You better keep that to
yourself. You better work.
Yeah, on your own, psycho. It doesn't feel, it doesn't feel
like there's room to discuss that really, unless you're
bringing up like you have to be pretty close to really, I think
for your friendships to be able to like bear that weight almost
of something that like, how are we going to navigate that?
Specific 1 isn't it? I don't know the last time I was
jealous of a friend if I really think about it.
Let me think. It's almost like when I was
younger. I have like more stories of
like, oh, like almost like my people from school that I'd be
like. But it was almost always more in
like a, like a, yeah, like a competitive way I think, I
think. It can come out like in like if
it's like someone got a promotion that you wanted, but
it's different. It's not your friendship because
are we talking about as well? There are different levels of
almost you're comparing yourself to your friend.
Yeah. Or is it almost being jealous of
your friends closeness with somebody else?
That is implication of yeah, go on.
That is the difference between jealousy and envy, that whole
thing which I know you don't like, I know you don't like, but
that is the definition of that. So jealousy is that feeling of
possessiveness that you are looking at what they have.
What? So you're wanting your best
friend to be your. You want it to be like mutual.
If they get a new best friend you want to like, keep them for
yourself. That's jealousy.
Envy is that feeling of comparison that's like, oh, I
want the thing that they have. They are different.
So I'd like. I do think that envy is more
normalized than that feeling of jealousy.
Yeah, I agree. Because that's quite tough when
it's like, especially in a friend that feels like way more
of a relationshipy thing. Yeah.
So the idea that you could be like, it's just more pleasant,
isn't it? If I was, if I were to say to
you, I'm really jealous of your friend, any name, because she
gets to see you all the time, There's an implication of.
Love there that I have for. You.
Whereas if I say I'm really jealous of your brown hair
bangs. Yeah.
There's an implication of hate, resentment.
Yeah. Do you know what I mean?
Like, one of them carries a sense of like, well, you just
love me so much that you want me all to yourself.
But the other one is like, you love me so much you hate me.
Like you resent me. Like you don't like my brown
hair bangs anymore. You actually.
It's a dislike. Yeah.
And that's more grim. And it's important, possible to
admit, especially as a young woman when it's like you just, I
mean, when did you ever, when did anyone ever say to you
growing up, tell me quickly that it was OK to feel something ugly
towards someone that you love? Never.
Yeah, never.
And it is kind of the thing of as well.
We have so many thoughts in the day, like thousands, hundreds of
thousands, millions maybe. I don't know.
I don't know that I'm but it's a lot.
It's a lot. Most of them are not true.
It's not your belief. It's not a reflection of
anything accurate in your life. And I think some part of it has
to be a normalization of like, things are going to come up
sometimes and it doesn't mean anything more than, yeah, a
passing moment sometimes. No, it's so true.
I'm yeah, because I'm. I've redownloaded headspace.
Oh yes, I've been in a meditating zone recently and
I've been doing this like one of the courses on there.
And it like for so long it has been getting me to like do the
noting technique where it's like you're breathing and then you're
every time you have a thought, you have to be like thinking.
Or every time you get distracted by like a feeling, you're like
feeling and you're just sort of labelling as it goes.
And the whole point of the exercise, I'm on like day 10 of
it now. Like it's just been so fucking
boring just doing that. But it's like, you just need to
get like comfortable with doing that really.
Because the whole point is like separating yourself and your
thoughts. And my dad would always say to
me, like he always, always, always says you are not your
thoughts. You are not your thoughts.
Like he just always says it to me.
And I'm always like, what the fuck does that mean?
Or like, yes, OK, I can be separate from my thoughts, but
my thoughts are still ruling my life.
Like these thoughts are no longer thoughts, they're beliefs
that drive me in certain ways. Yeah, like it's all very
well-being. Like, yeah, okay, I know they're
not me, but it is that thing of being like the classic headspace
thing of the cars passing on the fucking Rd.
Level 1. Middle of the motorway.
What am I doing here? Why am I sat here in the fucking
what's called cold shoulder, hard shoulder the.
Hard shoulder? Yeah, I'm giving you the cold
shoulder. On the hard shoulder, shoulder
watching the fucking the cars, the thought being like thought,
thought, thought or whatever the fuck.
Like it does change change your mind so much when you do
realise. OK, so there is this sort of
like space behind that where I am like able to like point at
them like they're not, they can't be me because I'm
literally being like, oh, they're.
Beyond it, yeah, yeah. And in the same way that you
might have that thought, or of whatever, I'm jealous of her, I
want her brown hair bangs, you can at the same time offer
something completely the opposite and decide which one
you could put time into believing.
And also This is why back to the emblems, women operating as
emblems of the idea that there can only be one girl with the
brown fringe or there can only be one girl that is she's the
pretty one, she's the clever one, she's the bitchy one, she's
the fashion one, she's the science 1, whatever the fuck.
Like those ideas that we've been working with for like so long,
our whole lives for sure. And maybe like our parents whole
lives, if not further back that like stereotypical views of what
a woman can be. It does make you feel like
there's only room for one of each type.
So I've got to set myself aside and be this kind of one or like,
Oh my, This is why we get messages like from people being
like, oh, my sister has always been highly academic and I'm
not. It's like, is that true?
Or were you just divided like that and you've built that
narrative that she's the academic 1 and you're this one?
There is room for two clever girls here.
There is room for two pretty girls.
Whatever. There's room.
There's to be. Realistically, there is.
There literally is, but there wasn't.
Well, of course on planet earth there is, but then also in
things like in terms of opportunities, it's extremely
limited. And especially for things like
if you're looking at like tokenism and like there's only
room, we're only going to take, you know, like you're the one
black girl that we're going to take into this project or you're
the one plus size girl that we're going to take into this
project. It's like we think that these
spots are limited because we've been shown that they're so
limited. They're like limited to non
existent throughout our whole lives.
Like of course we. Were those things, it's
different because it's like that's a systemic issue of like
there is one spot that is being given, which then feeds the
thing of the. It's not only just comparison at
that, at that level, it's actually just like a
competitive. Yeah, but I think it is just
inherently competitive as well, just to be a woman in the sense
that it's almost like women can't be sloppy in the same way
that a man could or whatever. It's like you say, like I'm
doing a panel show and I want experts. 4 men, one woman, just,
you know, Yeah. Just to keep everyone off my
back. Yeah.
Like these sports are in it. It is systemic.
It is like there's a longevity here of like hundreds of years
telling us that it's scarce for women.
He's fucked up even in like a yeah, it's just mental.
No, it is funny that like the idea of like, yeah, competition
basically with our friends and like the women around us is
built into like, yeah, literally kind of DNA.
Yeah. And it has been for men as well.
Just in terms of like finding a mate, just sort of like aiming
for the top one, the one that can protect your kids, whatever,
all of that stuff. So many mate.
They do, but they've also got to like it's.
Not impregnate a woman every day for the rest of his life as in
like, you know, like the the implication that no, it's
completely different. It's men are not like, you know,
yeah, that that sort of. Like it is built into them in a
certain way, but it is obviously completely.
Different it's about masculinity and like survival of the fittest
and like proving that you're. So it will be to protect
themselves from the men that are going to kill.
Them and all of this stuff, it's entirely different, yeah, but
it's still like, you know, there's patriarchy everywhere,
but like, who's taking the brunt?
It's completely different and like the most horrific thing
that that has done is turn women against other women.
Like there's nothing like that is just the saddest thing.
Jesus Christ. Like also it's it's so fucking
shit when you see like for example, that really playing out
like even taking workplace stuff out of it.
But like 2 girls, I actually don't think this ever happened
to me, but I've seen it happen before where it's like 2 friends
that then suddenly fancy the same guy.
It's fucking horrible what that does.
Like it's just basically it triggers some like it must be
biological thing. And also just this idea that
yeah, the top spot is like a scarce thing and you've got to
fucking fight to get it. But it does turn people quite
crazy. I'm always very grateful when I
have a different type to my friends because I always think
like wouldn't one would not want that to happen to me.
That's gross bad. Also like some of my like guy
friends have. There was one that I had a
fucking massive go out because I actually feel like this is so
horrific. There were two best friends and
he was friends with them. Both slept, was seeing one of
them and then slept with the other one.
And I just thought, you don't know what you've done there,
actually. Like, that's just like, oh, I
didn't know which one I liked. And I was like, you know, seeing
which one I liked more, hanging out with them both, blah, blah.
But it's like, you don't know. Yeah.
What the inside of their journals look like right now
because they're not about you. They're about their friend.
They're you're turning. You're making two women that
love each other competitive with each other.
I can't stand for that. Yeah, it has to the the
expectation that then these women must rise above it.
Like, yeah, that almost like how?
Could you be happy for the other one and whilst you're no?
It's a lot to ask, isn't it? Yeah.
And it's also, it puts you in quite a sick position because
it's almost like, yeah, it's a real test of your friendship.
And like, you see someone in a new light.
It's like, oh, I thought we were friends.
And then I saw how you would act if we were in a situation where
you had to put your own needs before men, and you did.
And that hurts. And now we can't Unsee that.
Bye. Do you know what one of my least
favorite phrases is? People say this all the time
before they cheat on someone, OK?
They say it all the fucking time.
Like, I have friends that have cheated on people before and
they've said this phrase also. You know me, Harry.
I'm listening to. I'm watching Made in Chelsea day
in, day out. Yeah, I hear it all the time.
So I know this as a fact. People say this before they
cheat to their friends they say, oh and I've got to be selfish
for once I've just got to put me first for once.
For once they always, always, always fucking say, I think I've
just got to be selfish here and 25 year old man lives in a
beautiful home, His mum's still cooking him spaghetti bolognese
tonight, so I've got to be selfish for once.
Literally they all say it, but the girls I know have also said
it as well. I think it's a real the girls
that are cheated. It's like if you catch yourself
saying that phrase, I've just got to put myself first for once
I've just got to be selfish for once.
I, I think that might be a slight flag like an alarm bell
ringing that you're about to hurt someone and you're trying
to justify it. Because I don't think that ever
is an excuse for being selfish. I don't think that is, I don't
think that is an excusable behavior.
And there's a better way to do it than the way you're about to
do it, I think, if you're saying that phrase.
I think as well, like a lot of people probably do feel like it
is kind of a, well, it's totally a symptom of for women as well,
particularly like living your whole life for other people and
in service of and never even acknowledging like what you
might actually want or like the awareness of like being able to
validate how you feel about something.
It kind of makes it just makes perfect sense, doesn't it, that
you spend your whole life denying that you could ever want
or need anything and then having a kind of brink of a moment
where someone gave attention and you thought, fuck it, yeah, I
just need to be selfish for once.
This guy wants to fuck me, let's go.
Like it makes happens very naturally.
Definitely. But I think like, yes, I can
like totally. That's of course how things
work. But like, yeah, you've been
denying your needs for like. In one scenario.
For certain. But that is sort of what like, I
almost think like. That's the classic tale, hey?
Or like for example, most commonly when women cheat or
like when most men cheat, it will be like out of impulse and
like a sexual desire and just like they feel entitled to do
that. Whereas often when women cheat,
it's because they've been denying their needs and like
performing for a long time and they enter into like an affair
essentially with like quite a lot of like awareness of the
fact they're doing it. It's never just like a slip up
or it's most commonly not a slip up.
It's like a very premeditated build up of things.
I have more sympathy for women obviously wanting to be selfish,
but I don't. I have heard it one too many, so
many times actually, where people say that I've just got to
be selfish for once. It's like maybe don't be.
I think it's a symptom of never is that you didn't acknowledge
what you wanted incrementally for the past six months and now.
I think that's the problem. Or like we were having this
conversation back in fucking June, you know, like we were, we
were building towards this. Yeah, yeah.
It was kind of obvious. We were setting the stone.
We set the. Yeah, we're having to wait till
it all blows up. You could just do it nicely
like. It just.
Sometimes you do, but you know, sometimes.
Let's aim to be nice and. Commutative totally, totally and
and. Let's aim to validate what you
were feeling when you felt it first.
Definitely, and that as the priority.
Actually, I think that and also that's a fucking tall order.
Like it's hard to know how you're feeling like so hard.
But I do think that's like #1 aim.
I just do love the jealousy chat.
I think I do. You remember I said I think
we've had this conversation before.
I was like, I definitely feel like I'm more jealous than other
people. I think everyone will think that
though. No, because some people are
quite good in terms of as well, like, you know, some people are
not jealous. I know it, I see it, I see it.
Do you so posh? Yes, I see people be like, I
mean this is maybe more in a sexual sense, but like the idea
of someone else having sex with someone that I like.
That's horrific. Is absolutely repulsive
recurrent to me, whereas. A lot of people it's like, I
could entertain that for, you know, a moment.
Like, do you know, I mean, there are, there are arenas that other
people are playing in that I cannot even it.
And it's not cute. It's not cute.
And I mean, I'm the jealous type.
It's like, I'm going to murder children in your family.
And now look what I've said. It's not likeable.
It's not cutesty jealousy. Before you know it, you're
saying crazy things about like, well, how's your relationship
with your mum? Because I might kill her.
It's it's so it's it's definitely.
That not just what jealousy is, I think it's like.
Maybe to its fault, I mean I like to tell you it's up full
volume, I'll take. That, yeah.
To its final. Conclusion I think it is
horrible. Like it's not, it's not a nice
thing. Like it objectively is not a
nice thing. Like it is not like, yeah, you
can do a little Dojo song about it and it's cute, but like what
she's singing about is horrible. It's awful.
It's it's basically it, it includes, it's an umbrella term
for insecurity. Not feeling good enough,
thinking that other people have what you are going to get, what
you want. It's horrible.
That's my hometown. Yeah, literally I'm from there.
But yes, that's me. That's where I'm at.
That's my arena. That's more good arena.
No, it's awesome. It's awful.
But my instincts, I think are very.
I'm a very comparative. Like I just.
I can't. Yeah, my mind goes there very
easily. I can be like it.
It truly depends on the like season of my life.
Almost like there definitely are and also like the certain things
bring it out so much. But like also it's one of those
things that you don't notice the absence of.
Like I think in this conversation like and when we
were like, OK, we're going to work.
Jealousy. I think I am not in a jealous
like period of my life. I think I do feel pretty like
confident and like my like body image stuff is like kind of
under control at the moment. Like I feel kind of good
generally about myself. So I'm not necessarily like
feeling it. Like jealousy is not like at the
forefront of my life. It definitely has been at
certain times all and like insecurity, all of that stuff.
But I think the kind of sick thing about jealousy is that you
don't realise when you're not feeling it.
Like, it's not like you never. Know when it's around the
corner. No, you definitely, you
definitely don't know. True.
You never know. But you, it's not something
that's like, because we don't speak about it, you don't think
of it as if it's something that I struggle with or blah, blah,
blah. So you're not really noticing.
Oh yeah, I'm not feeling that at the moment until you talk about
it's like, Oh yeah, that actually is not like a driving
factor or like that doesn't doesn't feature in my daily life
at the moment. But there was no acknowledgement
of that. But just like, what the fuck is
that? Right, That thing that I have
experienced, where the fuck was the you know.
So I was like, why never fucking tell me?
You're not feeling jealous at all.
You should be. You're like that should that
should have been right and there should have been some kind of
bodily announcement to me. Celebration, fanfare, I don't
know, but like almost, it's not, I think it's just kind of like
quite nice to acknowledge. Oh yeah, that's not really, it's
not really a factor right now. So.
Where I'm at for now. For very much for now.
For now, give it a week. It could be.
In time anything is possible. In time it shall come.
It always does. Yeah.
It's just like an invisible presence, almost like it's.
And then it very much announces itself quite loudly.
Has anyone ever thought it's the thief of joy before?
Truly has. Anyone ever said that?
Because it truly. It really is it.
It actually is. It kind of is, though.
It is when you think about it. Yeah, they were on something.
All right, this. It feels weird to be back,
doesn't it? Did you like that?
No. Oh.
No, it's not. Like I didn't like that.
I think I've been talking shit. I have not been like used to
having this back. OK, I'm sorry to hear that
because I thought that was really fun.
Well, I. Think when you hear it back,
you'll be like this is good, but you're having a moment of come
on. No, not I'm not jealous of our
old apps. I wouldn't say, but I am
definitely thinking. I had a bit of a moment earlier,
Sefi made a reel about fruit Winders.
Yeah. And I didn't tell you this.
I guess it was just one of the thoughts that I thought not
relevant, brush it away. But I said, I messaged saying
fruit Winder. Ha ha.
I just saw the title, like come through on the thing that said
it been downloaded. And I was like, oh, interesting.
And then you said, yeah, it's just a silly little thing, but
you made a funny joke. And I thought it was funny.
And I thought, and she thought I made a funny joke.
So then I thought, let me sit down and watch this thing.
And I watched her. And I thought, when's a funny
joke coming up? But anyway, you've made such a
funny joke. Well, I said, chew me down,
swallow me up. I don't know.
Well, OK, so it's literally like a, it's just like a short real
buzz talking on the podcast. We're talking about fruit
winders. Then Wing says.
I feel like a screwed up front fruit Winder just shovel me in
or something like that. I just thought it's like it's
quite funny. It was not.
I'm not saying it's. Hilarious.
Someone should write that down. But I'm saying, yeah, that's a
little bit of funny something. I know I liked that, well more
so just my thought was she thought you made a funny joke.
Yeah, I did. Yeah, I.
Thought I was going to say in that clip I feel like a.
Froub true that ripped their heads off and sucked their guts
out because I do love. That one when?
We. Yeah, so good.
That was all, just sometimes I think about.
Yeah, I think it's just. When you compliment me, they
land. Basically, good.
OK, good. I just think it's also like it's
hard to see yourself objectively, like in terms of
the funny joke and in terms of me being like that was trash.
And by that I mean everything you've just listened to in the
last 40 minutes. I.
Liked it though, like I thought that was really interesting.
Good, I just. Am I giving science to say
otherwise? No, no, no, no.
It also it's, I think it's just getting used to like getting
back to it, hearing yourself talk like I, I just feel like,
am I talking? Shit, but I was gonna say this
is so the meat and potatoes of the episode.
This is my favorite. The last three minutes where we
start unpacking what just happened for the past 45
minutes. This is my favorite.
Genuinely though, is it? I like that, Yes.
Yes. It's a kind of cause.
Someone's like, forget all that shit though, What the hell?
What would you say experience together?
It's very much like holding hands across the fire of like
the ayahuasca has calmed down and now we're like, how was that
for you? What's happened?
I almost think it's a bit like, not on a parrot teeth, but
what's the drink you'd have at the end of a meal?
It's kind of the bit of a cheese board That's yeah, it's
literally it's just like a little coffee at the end of the
meal. Just like how was that?
I love that bit. Post credit scene.
It's not, but yeah, yeah, yeah, post credit scene.
I like that. OK, fine, fine.
I'll go. I'll go.
Well, thanks. Thank you so much.
And if you don't hear from us, you don't hear from us.
Assume the worst.