I'm Danielle. A lot of times when I talk about
meditation benefits of Dharma practice, I talk about the one
of the benefits being increasing our tolerance for discomfort or
for ambiguity. And this came up a little bit
last week and it may, I have been thinking about it for a
while because some of us have histories where we've been
taught or learned how to sit with discomfort at our own, at
our own expense, not our own growth.
And so I think that I would, I would like to talk about is kind
of the difference between the, the kind of discomfort that we
want to sit with that will lead toward wisdom and versus the
kind of discomfort that is likely to cause us harm.
And probably we shouldn't sit with it.
And if then maybe it's easier for you to discern the
difference between those than it is for me.
So we'll have a discussion about this because I, it's, it's
always been difficult for me. I, I think I've shared
previously, I grew up in an alcoholic home and a lot of what
I learned is that like life is just discomfort.
I was, I was being pre Buddhist training, right?
But it was, it was a lot of unsettling situations and a lot
of uncertainty and a lot of feeling of responsibility, a lot
of not being able to predict things.
And I learned really early on that like that, that was kind of
my role is to sit with that kind of discomfort and just kind of
like soak it up and then internalize it and take
responsibility for it. Like lots of bad habits that I
learned from that. But it, it, the problem is that
it kind of distorted my ability to assess whether this is the
kind of dis discomfort where if I sit with this, I can really
learn something. I can become more wise about
what's coming up for me. And then that will be better in
the long run versus that the kind of discomfort that I grew
up in, which is not really the kind of discovery that you
should just like sit in. So in Buddhism, when we talk
about the kind of discomfort that can lead to wisdom, let's
call this noble discomfort. This is the kind of discomfort
like sitting with restlessness or boredom or, or even anxiety,
those kinds of feelings come up. And often our first reaction is
to try to just get away. Like I'm so bored, I'm going to
scroll on my phone a lot or, or I'm going to, you know, eat
something or I'm going to do something kind of unhealthy
because I'm bored. Or anxiety can cause a lot of
those same kind of things engaging in kind of behavior
because we're trying to get out of that feeling of anxiety.
And a lot of those times it's very useful and better for us in
the long run if we can just sit and say like, oh, look, I notice
I observed that I am bored and I can sense my feelings of wanting
to get rid of that boarding and boredom and act on it.
Sitting with that can can allow us to open up the space, step
back from that enough that we can act in intentional ways.
So if we wanted to do something to alleviate the boredom, we can
engage in some healthier behaviors perhaps, or something
like this other kinds of discomfort that are that is that
is healthy to live, to sit through and to increase our
tolerance before include things like observing the the stories
that we tell, right? So we talk a lot about much of
much of us as humans, we create stories.
We create narratives about what we think or feel or what
somebody else is doing or what something, something is
happening. And sometimes it can be really
helpful to sit in the place where either we don't know.
So uncertainty, sitting with uncertainty, like we don't know
what the story is or where we start to observe that we are now
telling a story about some pattern of behavior that's maybe
not helpful. And it can be, it can be useful
to spend some time just sitting and observing the discomfort
that comes from noticing that you are telling yourself a story
that may not be helpful in the same way.
Once you notice those kind of, you know, problematic patterns
of behavior, the problematic, problematic stories that we're
telling ourselves, it can also be uncomfortable to sit with
them dissolving. So when you are trying to learn
a new pattern of behavior, it is just it's uncomfortable.
It's uncomfortable to try a new way of being.
And that kind of discomfort can be good to sit with.
Like, oh, I see I'm falling into those old habits again, or I'm
like resisting doing the healthy habit again.
That kind of discomfort is really helpful.
You sit with that, you can observe it.
It can maybe give you enough space to step back and act in
kind of intentional ways. Other kinds of discomfort that
can be helpful to sit with are when you notice like big strong
feelings. So when you have a strong
feeling, often times our very first reaction is to try to get
away from that strong feeling. And it can be really helpful to
just sit and notice like, oh, I'm having a strong feeling and
it's uncomfortable to have that strong feeling.
But being in the presence of that strong feeling can help you
notice either again, give you some space, step back, see what
you can do to act intentionally or just observe.
I'm having a strong reaction. This is what's happening for me.
This is what it feels like when I have a strong reaction that
can. There's a lot of wisdom from
sitting with that kind of discomfort when you my
experience this week where my ego was hurt a lot because
people at work were not being kind.
And it can be another one of those things where I noticed
like, oh, look, my feelings are hurt.
That's just my ego. I know that I'm doing, I'm
intentional in my actions. It is being interpreted in a
particular way. Sitting with that discomfort has
been really helpful, specifically this week when I
wanted to send off emails to people about like, you're wrong.
Why are you saying those things about me?
Please stop talking about that. Let's talk, doesn't it doesn't,
that doesn't matter. Like it, that's not going to
help anything. And because I could sit for
longer with those feelings of like my ego is now affected and
I can sit for longer. I didn't have to react.
And before Buddhism, I would react right away, defend myself.
And why are you saying those things or try to get somebody to
change their mind about something.
It's just that this doesn't work, right.
And that for me this week was a lot of Pennant ego centered
stuff. So a lot of those kinds of
things, and there's a lot of discomfort there.
And that is precisely the kind of discomfort where if we can
increase our tolerance and reduce our reactivity to them,
it can be very beneficial. We can gain wisdom from Mac, but
there's other kinds of discomfort that is not on the
path to wisdom. So things like, you know, if you
are in, in a relationship that is abusive or demeaning, or you
know, where, where the cost of compassion means that you are
giving away your self efficacy, your, your own state of mind,
those things are really problematic, right?
And it's not just like, oh, I just have to be more
compassionate. I just have have to have more
space for this, you know, abusive situation.
If you're in a workplace where the environment is very toxic
and it is lots of criticism and there's lots of exploitation and
a lot of, you know, bad relationships.
That's not necessarily something that you can just say, well, I'm
just going to sit through this and just observe all of the, you
know, demeaning behavior, exploitative behavior.
That's not necessarily going to help you in a path towards
wisdom, right? That's it's, it's kind of
another way of like checking out and numbing in this kind of bad
situation. So it is helpful to try to
discern when is the discomfort helpful and when is the
discomfort harmful. And it's not that easy.
And like I said, maybe it's easier for you.
And if it is, I would really like to hear about that because
for me, one of the challenges is that humans and life is, is
variable, right? So each of us as an individual,
we have good days, we have bad days at work, there are some
good days, other people have good days and bad days.
Relationships, you know, in the lighter world, sometimes, you
know, it's just like this is a moment where it's like just
something unpleasant is happening.
And if it is just kind of part of the variation of life, it can
be helpful to be like, well, this is going to pass.
So I'm going to sit with this tough discomfort for a little
while and then it'll pass and I'll go back to another thing.
But sometimes it doesn't, It's not just a temporary thing.
It's kind of a, it's a chronic condition and it's
characteristic of that situation.
And then it then we have to learn to sit with the and act on
the discomfort of like, OK, what I actually need here, because
this is not a, a discomfort that will help me grow.
This is discomfort that will be harmful.
I have to learn things like how to set boundaries, how to, you
know, leave a relationship or a workplace, how to, you know,
surround myself with healthier people or whatever.
And those are difficult too, because whatever situation
you're in probably has its own momentum and it, it has its own
kind of weight keeping you in that space.
So then that's another kind of discomfort.
But that's another one of those helpful discomfort, the
discomfort of like, I have to engage in a particular action
for my own health and safety and all those things.
And that's going to be difficult.
So I'm going to, I'm going to leave it with that.
And I'd like to hear from you. But I, I would like to talk
about this idea that the, the, really the benefit of sitting in
meditation, which is itself uncomfortable, right?
We just all had an experience of sitting in one position for an
extended period of time. That is discomfort.
But that again, is like the beneficial discomfort because
we're learning that we can sit in discomfort.
We're learning that our mind, the patterns of our mind, we're
kind of observing a little bit of the patterns of our mind
without getting attached to them.
Those are all good things. Telling when it's a good thing
and a bad thing is part of the challenge that I would like to
hear from you about. Like if you are good at
determining if a situation is good discomfort or not helpful
discomfort, I would really benefit from that.
I'd like to hear from you. Or if you're struggling with it
like me, I'd like to hear from that too.
So I'll turn it over to you when you speak.
Please start with your name so that we can get to know you.
Now this time is yours. As well.
I was excited. I.
Didn't, I don't think any discern between what you should
sit with and what you shouldn't? I mean, sometimes you don't even
know that you're suffering until you ask to inquire about it.
Sometimes suffering is a norm. Of course, people if they were
raised with it, but then you also gotta ask what can I do
about it? You know, can I do something
like avoid something or or problem solve it?
What can I do about it? And then after, you know, and
then simply if you can't do anything about it, then you sit
with it, you make the most of it.
Be, you know, if you're bored, you know, if you're in pain, if
you're just do what you can and then, you know, accept it.
Don't make friction when you don't have to like emotional
reactions. Easier said than done, of
course, but but I try and think of those three things, you know,
that kind of guide me. I like to learn the hard way at
the time, but but I did learn those those things at least, you
know. Yeah, that's, that's actually
really helpful. And and I too like to learn
things the hard way many, many times over and over and over
again. Oftentimes that becomes those
kinds of things become my Mara, like, oh, my old friend, this
old pattern of behavior. But I'm trying to learn to
change. Come on in.
Very familiar with this difficult pattern that I'm
trying to change. And So what you were talking
about actually reminded me in pragmatic Buddhism, we have a
process that we call awareness, acceptance action that isn't in
much the same way. And it helps me think through
like trying to determine if this is a situation that I should sit
with or that I'd act on the kind.
The Awareness Acceptance Action Framework can can really help.
Developing that pause ahead of time before that reaction, you
know, that's a technique in itself, I guess, You know?
Absolutely. Yeah.
A reflexive, you know, actions got me in plenty of trouble
before. So with what we say and you know
what we, what we do, you know, I mean, even if the thought comes
out, you know, or comes up, you don't have to necessarily act on
it 'cause we not, we're not our thoughts, right?
So, yeah, that right there alone is another practice.
Yeah, that's still working, of course.
I think we, I think we all are looking that same way, yeah.
So what I this is a little parallel, but it's it's right in
the vein of complaining versus venting.
And I had conversations with my brother and some of us like, oh
man, work sucks and this is happening again.
It sucks. That is completely or I had this
confrontation with my Co worker about this and I learned this
and now I'm going to do this change.
Like that's vintage and it's kind of in the suffering and it
is the action kilter. I guess that's like the most
obvious version of that. But if if like there's no good
change that can be that like I've sat with stuff that for too
long. It felt like it was terrible.
Then I came up with this wonderful insightful, but
sometimes it's as I'm sitting with it.
So it's a real hard filter to know whether or not you can get
to chain but sitting with it. But I love it seems also if the
thoughts are just moving too fast to shape, which that's then
they're probably not helpful and probably should not be hanging
out with them those thoughts. Either.
I do, I mean, I agree with you. I think that part of it is
observation. And, and the observation
includes both kind of what's happening and the consequence
of, of what's happening because there are a lot of times when we
engage with things where we think it's going to be a helpful
thing. So, and this could be one of
those examples. We could say like, OK, I need to
sit with discomfort. So then sit with the discomfort,
but then observe what happens afterward, right?
So, and, and sometimes the period of time afterward
matters, right? It did, it, did it work?
Is sitting with that discomfort. Did you realize like, oh, now I
don't have to be as reactive. I can, I can step back from
that. Or did you learn like that is
not that was not helpful for me. Now I have to engage in some
sort of action. And I I think about that a lot
because we all get advice from all sorts of people.
You should do this and you should that would try that drink
this and do this exercise. Try this and I OK, yes, sure,
try it, but then observe how it actually works for you.
So this is one of the best ways to observe like are you actually
gaining wisdom from this? And I think this is coming up
for me right now because work is really hard and has been for a
while. And I keep looking for like the
wisdom. So, OK, I'm looking, look at
universe. You're giving me some lessons.
What am I learning these lessons and trying to observe?
OK, so this is a situation that's happening.
And then and then I'm, I sit with it and I observe and I step
back. And then the same thing happens
again. And the same thing happens
again. And so now it's been many years.
I don't think it's me. I think it's you.
So that's a good observation, right?
So, and that's one of those things that it, it's sometimes
it does take time when you're trying to, to learn something,
when you're trying to gain wisdom.
It's usually not in like 1 moment of clarity, although we
all probably had those moments also.
But usually that's not how it happens on the regular.
It's not like I'm going to try this one thing and you're like,
Ding, it worked. Everything's great.
Now it's sometimes like it didn't work or didn't it work?
Try it again, try it again. So, and that can be, it depends
on you. How many times do you try this
new activity before you can determine, yes, this is good for
me. No, this isn't good for me.
And that's part like, well, how many times do you try?
And I think some of us like me and maybe like Aaron was saying,
maybe try too many times, like, oh, it didn't work, but I'm
gonna try it one more time. Oh, it didn't work, but I'm
gonna try it one more time for years until you're like, I
stink. It doesn't work.
And and then, and then, then it's hard because now you've
been trying it for years and now you're like, now I have to do
something different, which is a different kind of hard.
So I'm steeping, so there's something that I tell my kids a
lot that. Yeah, so I often bring out like
when I'm feeling frustrated, especially for pride or
something like that. I've got this phrase that I say
to them over and over where I'll say like we're just fancy
monkeys on a rock orbiting around the star in an inmost
pool. And what I mean by that when I
say that is kind of like a a grounding.
Like at the end of the day, let me hear our you know, we're kind
of like fancy my Blues, you know, you and I thing and and
you think that all of our things are very important, all of the
things that we're doing in the ways that we're interacting.
For myself, what I've found is that I kind of got like these
two zones that I get into a lot, especially when I was younger
and it's going to stay life now. So on this side is like my very
self important, you know, just like take myself really
seriously and like get very upset and then someone's doing,
you know, X&Y that violates my value system.
Wallah. Then over here it's like, hey,
dude, like shut the fuck out. Like you're and that statement
kind of reflects that, right? The the fancy mind 'cause I
don't know where we get caught. Oh, and so I like that tension
and I like to keep that tension in mind.
There's a sport that I engage in a lot.
I love it. It's kind of experience called
kite serpent. You attacks this big kite to
yourself and you're out on the water and when the wind is up
and you can surf and do these huge jumps like 30-40 feet up
near, it's awesome. It's also a little bit dangerous
and it's also very humble. And So what I found for myself,
I've been doing it now for about 6 years and every time I go out,
I, you know, learn something or I fail or I have a great time
where I totally suck and have a long walk back.
You know, I have a Carlyle life with this gross water and bunch
of sticks everywhere and you know, like things like that.
And for myself, I think this physical activity and hobby that
I like is also like an analogy, like a poignant analogy for
those two states that I get into.
Because when you do it well, you know, and the winds is up and
it's awesome and you get these huge jumps and you feel like a
badass. So it's like, OK, that was
great. And then a year and a half ago.
Went out, my ego got the best of me and I was at a bad lunch spot
and I almost stopped and I broke my collar running three ribs and
my leg and thankfully healed up. But it adjusted, of course.
And it was like my 40, you know, 40th birthday wake up call.
But yeah, I'm not invincible. And so I don't know what it is
about this activity, but this it's like going out and putting
my body through this stuff and being at the mercy of the wind
and the waves is like exactly what we do with our mind when
you are interacting with people, you know, it's it's wind and
waves like the you can't control how someone else is going to
interact with you can't control their opinion of you.
You can't control like all these scents, right?
And so the best moments in fight warding is when you just blow,
you allow the wind and the water to be what it is and you ride
it. And that's for me.
There's something really beautiful about that.
And I try to bring that over into my relationships as well.
They're like I, I have no control over what this person's
reaction is going to be to me. And so that practice that
element of like getting out there and just doing it over and
over again and, and you fail and have a bad session or have a
good session and you just get the fuck back up and do it
again, you know, like, and just do it again.
There's a lot of like therapeutic wisdom in that
process. The the process of getting back
up and just doing, yeah, OK, whatever your emotional stay was
in the last round and cares, just do it again and let's go,
you know, and learn something new at the time.
It's a great analogy. Thank you.
That's pretty helpful. I'm happy, Danielle, I don't
kind of tell you, but. If you're going to work with.
People, you're going to suffering every day.
There it is and will you? I thought the topic was living
sitting in discomfort, but as soon as you put the word
suffering at it, I thought differently.
So thank you. So if you stay home, avoid
people then less and that the venti.
I allow myself 5 minutes when I need to vent about my son.
Well and feels good, you know, because, well, there's those
three things. Is it true?
And most of it is and but the second step of is it necessary
is my second question And is it Kite?
So he keeps quitting jobs, leaving the family without money
because my daughter's still in college.
And so. But there's hungry children.
And is it necessary? Yeah, it is.
So there's those boundaries and all that.
And during the venting, I never have the problem solving.
I'm just acknowledging that he has trouble with life.
And, you know, my daughter really bugs him.
OK. And he's the father of my
graduate feel OK, but is it necessary?
It is necessary for me to help. So I have to think what I can do
that's this payless and affordable and it's not going to
change him. But and then the last one is, is
it kind? So just how I was meditating
about kindness to my son-in-law, and I will have to tell him in a
text that he's a good dad, because he is, because my
grandchildren are pretty cool, pretty wonderful, pretty curious
about nature. They're not spoiled of toys
because of gore, but they're all scientists, that curiosity about
nature, which is my thing. So I will be kind and I'll
accept that kindness, allow that kindness to him.
And I couldn't figure out how in my own way, but the boundaries
and all that. Yeah, you're really right that a
lot of the the suffering and discomfort we have is from other
people, not all of it. I mean, you know, and and you
could argue not any of it if because we're the ones that it's
coming up for us and we're reacting to it, but definitely
other people as a prime source, prime opportunity that can
inspire all kinds of discomfort and suffering.
And this is exactly the part that we're trying to figure out,
right? Like there are things that other
people think, say or do and we have to work with other people.
We have other people in our family.
We have strangers on the street, in the supermarket, like humans
are social animals. We need other people and yet
other people can drive us crazy. And this is one of those places
in particular where we'll, if we spend time for whatever is
coming up for us and observe that that emotion, the physical
sensations, it can give us enough distance to say, OK, what
is the appropriate thing to do? How, how should I act?
Do or do I need to act in this? Do I need to say something?
And if I do need to say something, what do I need to
say? And that's it is all of those
stages are kind of difficult. But I think that the the really
beneficial part about Buddhist practice is that it gives us
some tools and it gives us some space and it kind of gives us
permission also to step back. Because we live in such a
fast-paced culture where the expectation is something happens
and you have to react quickly. You have to get something done,
you have to solve a problem right away.
And it doesn't always give us permission to just like, yes,
but give me just a minute. I just need to like, can I just
take a breath for a minute? I just need to sit for a minute
and then I'll engage in our sort of problem solving culture.
And I appreciate that a lot because me as a person, I'm
like, yes, let's just solve all the problems right away.
And I can see a lot of that comes from my childhood and my
upbringing, but a lot of it comes from our culture too.
So just giving myself permission to like it's OK to take a breath
and be a little reflexive and kind of do a little kind of soul
searching before I jump right into problem solving,
identifying what I need to do or say or something.
So I'm grateful for that. Yeah.
I feel like I spend most of my time when dealing with an issue
in three different states. One, the state of realizing
there's nothing I can do about it and which is comforting.
It's actually comforting to feel like there's nothing I can do
about this. Now we just have to live inside
of it. The second one is knowing.
Knowing what to do about it. All right, like here's the
problem. But I know what to do, and all I
have to do now is have a plan to do that thing.
And even if the problem is not solved yet, there's comfort in
knowing that I have. I know what to do.
I know, I know what I think the right action is and I just have
to. Go through the steps and I
start. Plan.
And as soon as I come to the conclusion that I know what the
path is to handle the problem, I get a sense of relief just like
when I know there is nothing to do about the problem.
So both of those are not that both of those are good, right?
Both of them. In both cases, I either know the
right action is to do nothing, which is nothing I can do, or
the right action was X and I can do that.
And the one that causes the most suffering for me is knowing that
I should do something about it and that I can do something
about it, but not knowing what that is and like struggling on
should I do this? Should I do that?
Is this the right thing? Is that the right thing?
I. Feel like I should do this, but
I don't know if I can't. That's where the suffering comes
from. And I've always thought of it
like, all right, well, when I'm in that state, I just have to, I
have to make a determination. Is there something I can do or
is there not? And once I go into one of those
slots, it's more comfortable on. Yeah, there's a Spooks party.
I was going to tell about that but I'm forgetting what it is.
Now I'd ask, is it the suffering springing from not knowing or in
the action of looking for that solution?
Both. Both.
Yeah, me. In the feeling that this should
this should be over because there is something to do about
it, but I can't figure out what to do or I'm trying to do
something and it's not fixing it.
All right, So continuing to think and believe that there is
a fix, but not fixing it is the problem.
Once I believe there is no fix and say, well, I'll let this go.
And there are a lot of things, you know, there are things that
that are not fixed. They continue to knock you
fixed. But then I realized that there's
nothing I can do about it right now, and I'm able to forget
about it and we'll go on. Well, Pix is a stronger.
Let's just go with that because I mean, we might think we fixed
it, but the list that we are trying to help, there's that
human element. Well, that's if you're talking
about a human, but if you're talking about a thing in life
like, oh, I have this issue with my car or I have this issue
with. A box on your.
Yeah, but I hear what you said. Yeah, in some cases you can't
just fix something. But in some cases, at least the
cases I'm thinking about right now, there are things that I'm
like, oh, I want this problem solved, but I don't know
exactly. How to solve it?
Or if I come to the conclusion there is no way to solve it, I'm
like I already thought and I just let it go and you can go
for a long time without EPIX. Like a box on microbes.
Is there a way of reducing the suffering while still looking
for the solution? I don't know mentality to maybe
go about it differently whilst those continuing to search for
the problem or for the solution. Search for the right action.
I mean, I think that is where meditation can come in in this
situation. So in a situation like this
where it is a solvable, you have identified as a solvable
problem, but you don't know what the solution is yet.
That's a great place like to, to kind of let it sit for a while
or, or to observe the anxiety that may be coming up about
wanting to solve the problem and not knowing it.
That's that can be really helpful because that can maybe
give you enough distance to see what some options might be or,
or to the side. But I need to get input from
somebody else because, you know, I'm, I'm too close to the
project or whatever. That can be really helpful.
Like, so if you already know this is a solvable problem, this
is the kind of discomfort or suffering that is healthy to sit
with because then you can, you can learn from that, right?
It's, it's some of these other situations that may not be
solvable, right? And, and maybe what you're
saying is, so it sounds like you're saying like you just
don't get hung up on that. Like if this is a crappy
environment, whatever it is, you can't solve it.
You're just like, well, I'm not going to get bothered by it
because it's not a solvable problem.
That's that's pretty amazing and I would love to do that because
I have never met a problem that I didn't think could be solved.
Maybe that's part of the problem.
But this is interesting. I don't know, I don't talk about
this a whole lot and I've never heard anybody say that but you.
But so you don't come to the conclusion sometimes that, oh,
this problem can't like there's nothing I can do about this
right now. Even if it's not maybe in the
future you can. But right now if it's nothing
you can do and then just say OK, but I I can't do anything if
it's OK to let it go for now. I mean, I could if I got it
physically away from any. Kind so this is a bit as our
tire corrected at this point and I want to put some grounding on
it. You have a work relationship
with this problematic and you have to resolve it or what am I
going to cook for dinner tonight?
So like we're talking these and like, what are we going to cook?
Like you surely had these moments where it's just like,
fuck it, I'm not going to have dinner and I'm making the choice
that have dinner and that's the equivalent.
I mean, it's not giving up on a relationship or trying to do
that. But but there are, you know, the
whole time. Well, a lot of it's kind of
sick. I'm going as I know that I do
have a bigger crisises and but I just have a harder time wrapping
my head around the tactile of that.
But like I do my Christmas on Thanksgiving, so I have that get
procha inside the hand, make all my gifts and so my tinies all
over the place that not having to choose like, well, I'm not
going to make this for this person.
Then I'm I am going to make this for this person type of things.
And so these are very tactile things that I'm also going to
it's like take a nap or eat something this, you know, so not
all of the suffering are like Southern laws are extremely
complicated. I need these tools to just my
wife says we have, we have plenty of meat.
Don't buy anything at the grocery store.
Like, well, I don't know what to make for dinner and I'm having
an anxiety because I can't take up what to do with those things.
Chicken and an onion. Actually, that's not true.
But, you know, like, like these tools are accessible and
wonderful and, and like, I think we should also describe them too
with tools. Meditation, yeah.
Well, then you know, one thing you've mentioned before and then
I kind of think about this quite a bit for myself as I know
you've mentioned this like 2 weeks ago, I think.
But like a lot of times there's like an action that I think I
ought to do because of how it how it confirms my own
self-image of who I think I am, right?
So like, I want to be patient with this person because that
makes me look, you know, X&Y. And I don't mean that in like I,
I'm performing, but like there's these deep, insidious like
things about how we view ourselves, right?
And, and what we think it means to be a good person or to be a
good Buddhist for to be a good whoever, a good, you know,
mother-in-law, like all of these things, right?
We had scripts. We have culture and our
upbringing and our baggage and you know, what does it mean to
be a man or a woman or, you know, any of these things?
And so I think sometimes it's important to sort of like for
myself, I'm like, what do I actually have the capacity to do
right now? Not what do I wish my capacity
was and what do I think my capacity should be given my age
and experience? But like, what do I know shit
have the capacity for at this moment, Because this thing, this
answer might be on flyer, but it's better than the, you know,
the O just keep, you know, doing this thing.
And I'd rather say the unflattering 1 and be honest
with myself really, really honest about like, well, no, I
actually don't have the capacity to to be kind in this moment.
And so they may be wisdom is let me just be signed up then.
Yeah, or sure, I got the capacity for it, you know, and
yeah, let's let's offer it. I feel like that it's kind of
but important. Attention.
That might be a good example of the time when you realize you
can't do something right, like the emails, like you what?
You can do something. You could write some angry
messes, but you know that's not an option for you.
You don't want to do that and so there is nothing else to do but
you calm about it and let it. Let it go.
That's a better way to say. I agree.
I agree with you. And I actually, I think this is
a really helpful point. Thank you for sharing that,
Steven, because it does have to do with what is true for you at
the moment. And this is that this is another
one of those kinds of discomforts that can be really
helpful to sit with is like when you are trying to be honest with
yourself. And I, I wouldn't say being
brutally honest, I would recommend being rigorously
honest. But yes, in the same sort of
way, yes, yes. And it can be difficult though,
when you are being honest to yourself and, and our own
limitations, whatever they are, can be somewhat difficult.
And this might be one of those probably one of my problems
because like, yeah, every problem is solvable, just maybe
not by me and not with the tools that I have.
And so this is one of those things like, I have to be honest
to be like, that is not a solvable problem for me.
So let that go, right. And that that takes a little,
that takes a little practice. I mean, being humble is an
important part and being honest with yourself is an important
part and can be difficult, but just be careful that you're not
being rude and mean to yourself. That's, that's not the same as
being honest. And then in our culture,
sometimes we think it is like the only honesty is the one that
hurts. I.
Don't know about that. Well, there's like a, there's a
saying and maybe eventually, I mean, not really, I definitely
had mentioned this before you that there's a saying in poker,
the heck that when someone, you know that the player might go on
tilt, right? So anybody's played Poles and
he's know what I mean, We might go on tilt, which means that
something has happened on the board, something has happened on
the table that you are now reacting and responding to
emotionally, right? What you're supposed to do as a
poker play is let the cards come out, see your cards, and play
your cards. You're not supposed to just play
the cards. You're supposed to play the
players supposed to use the psychology of the table, what
you think someone has, how that person's play, etcetera,
etcetera, etcetera. But you're supposed to play the
cards, let the cards come out the way they come out and put
your card out. Whatever happens, happens.
If that hand goes, the dealer takes all the cards and shuffles
them and forget what just not happened.
Are you supposed to be unfaid by whatever happens on the table?
Because if you're not, you go on tilt, right?
Like if you, let's say you have pocket aces, you get 2 aces.
You're like you're, you get attached to the idea that this
is your hand, Like this is my hand.
I'm going to win all of that money on the table.
And then you put your pocket ace it down and it's the best hand
on the table until someone puts out two threes and then a three
comes out and then they take your money, right?
They take your money with what would normally not be a good
hand. And you get emotionally upset.
About. This like now the now your
emotions get involved in what's going on in the table and you
start to play differently right at the Fets now the way that
you're playing, playing the hand and I think like we we sometimes
will allow what's going on around us so.
I mean, where's that? It's all about the thing.
There's a direct connection, I mean that's.
Someone just knows that's a good metaphor.
Actually it was a. Connection to something.
Someone said that. It has to do with the how we see
ourselves. But once you start reacting to
the carbs. Yeah, exactly.
And the capacity what no velocity you have to add.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, there was there was
something someone said it wasn't that exactly.
But yeah, I mean, you, you start to not be able to see what the
right action is, right? The right action when you get
your next cards might be to play them in particular way.
But because you were tilted from that last hand, you might be
more aggressive than norm because you want them in your
money back. Or maybe you're being less
aggressive. You're being, you know, you're
not playing the cards that you maybe would have played before
because you're afraid, right. And so becoming tilted ends up
affecting your ability to see what you're after.
That's ultimately the the moral of that story.
But there was something, something said that when you
least want to. You can inscribe an equanimity I
think a little I mean he probably developed that and
meditation not being so flustered my life and reacting
to emotionally letting your emotions get away from you or
something which causes more suffering.
You know, all that friction that you put on the situation with
your overreaction, possible reaction.
You know, you just creating a more BS, but that level of mind,
you know where you're not sure and you're not sure you're just
kind of there, you know, like you, you can't be you can't be
too laid back, you know, because you can be a past this without
getting abused, you know, but you don't want to be too light,
strong and really clinging to that situation.
But like, it's something in between, you know, letting the
currents fall, you know, as they will, but still playing your
hand, you know, but keeping a cool head, you know, like that,
you know? Yeah, I actually the last time I
went to Atlantic City, I used to go yearly and play at the play
poker at the Borgata. And the last time I went, this
was in 22 when I came back, I went to a 10 day sound and true.
So I was like meditating and practice it, remaining in a
state of equilibrium. And then I went to Atlantic City
and I cleaned up. He kept me.
And literally I was really at this state of equilibrium that I
came right out of that retreat, came down to Saint Louis, hopped
on a flight and went straight there.
And I was at a football table within 48 hours.
And I remember being affected. I remembered.
The the effect. Of the retreat helping me play a
game. No tilty yeah.
I mean, this is exactly what we're all trying to learn is to
be less reactive. It's the reason that we
meditate. And I think that I mean, the
example of like when you're meditating for 10 days straight,
you have gotten a lot, you know, your capacity for, for
meditation and for, for equanimity has expanded a lot.
And that's what we're all trying to do, right?
So this is a fantastic metaphor. And the idea of like continuing
to play your hand, not getting tilted.
This is really good for all of us because this is the goal.
Maybe not to actually literally they play poker, but like using
that as a metaphor for a life. That's this is what our goal is,
is to try to remain centered and grounded in equanimous enough
that you can continue to do the thing that you need to do in an
appropriate way and then you know when at life.
Yeah. Or play poker.
I mean, I need $1000. So when does when does venti fit
it? Is that allowed or I feel?
Like it's a cleansy. So venting is an interesting
thing, right? And and you know, your mileage
may vary. There have been lots of studies
that were venting doesn't actually help in the same way.
Like you're like, I did this, my mom did this when we were
growing up. We had a scapegoat pillow.
And she's like, when you're angry, you just yell at the
pillow and pounded the pillow. Because this was this whole idea
of like, like you get out all of the emotions, then you're going
to be more grounded. And it doesn't usually work that
way. Like you get more of what you
give. So if you're like, I'm angry
about something, it's not getting the anger out out.
It's like feeding the anger. On the other hand, it can also
be kind of useful to be like, I am feeling a thing and I'm going
to express that thing, right? So it can be like, it depends on
it depends on. This is another one of those
examples. Observe what happens to you when
you vent. Do you feel more more rested and
peaceful afterward? Or do you feel more anxious?
You know, if you complain about work, does it help you get it
out so now you don't have to worry about it anymore?
Or does it make you feel worse? And that is a really helpful
exercise. And again, we have to be like
honest with ourselves because sometimes we do like, you know,
complaining or venting or whatever else it and sometimes
it's good for us, but sometimes it is not so.
In my head, like benting and complaining are absolutely
different things and screaming into a pillow is complaining.
It's just like, it's just more like venting functionally
changes where you're at. Like you've released the
pressure, it's gone and I think there's a social element to
that. So if I bet to somebody pretty
much necessary to bet to somebody and they can say yes,
yes, yes, they don't do that. And then that way you feel like
kind of like even Mary's thing where piece of knowledge she's
giving me. It's I heard of poor.
It's the cabbage thing. It's like you has a little one,
even if it was a cabbage, like sometimes when you're venting,
if you let that other person the flag.
Like when I was talking, my wife is complaining about this work
situation that she was trying to work through.
And I'm like, I have nothing to offer except for to receive it
in a way that allows you to be OK with that and.
Then maybe she was venting. Yeah.
That you would complain. No, I'm trying to figure out.
Yeah, for me, Chuck's of ethics, they always say the wrong word
all the time. Yes, she was venting about a
situation. And if I didn't listen, and if I
was just like, you know, whatever broad, then that would
be complaint. If you don't call him.
But like. That is The thing is why is
venting I mean you. Choose the right person to vent
to and that person knows that you it may not be as serious as
is what it is. Projecting, yeah.
I'm Sean. I just wanted to say something
that I was listening to on the way over here.
Well, for one, I was very restless on the way over here in
traffic, wanting the people to get out of my way.
But there's this book called Oneness something I don't know,
but it's a Zen book opening to warmness.
And it talks about the first preset of numb killing and none
harming. And it goes in depth about it
and it talks about how like it where for me, I get very
restless a lot and I'm a very driven person and that's got me
in a lot of trouble. But so whenever I am not able to
live in the moment with consciousness, I guess, or
conscience or equanimity or with these principles, if I'm trying
to hold on to something, I am practicing kill.
If I'm trying to hold on to something that's impermanent,
it's a form of killing in this book.
And if I think something is separate from myself, separate
is, is what they're saying is also a way of killing.
And that's helped me a little bit because I've held on to
things so much and to where it was caused me suffering.
I'm in recovery and there's a person in my life that has put
I've had pain in my heart towards this relationship for
years. And one thing that has saved me
is understanding that the restlessness in him, the ego in
enema is also eating and and and whenever and I've worked this,
I've worked through this with one of my sponsors and he's
tried to help me under like understand this guy.
And then I've, I've been warned for the pain in my heart to go
awake, but at the same time, you know, like if I'm trying to push
it away, that's also a form of suffering.
I'm just putting suffering on top of the suffering.
So I need to keep on practicing this non killing in a sense more
than just the physical sense. I need to practice it and, you
know, just being present with myself if I wanna, if I feel
something, heal it and. Yeah.
The honesty and the kindness I've even had lungs in my life
career. The honesty hurt, but it was it
was a blessing was one of the biggest questions I've ever had.
I think the kindness is a is a definitely a huge thing and
that's something I still need to practice.
You know, like when is it? When am I being kind and honest
and when his kindness, when his kindness is so subtle that you
don't even wanna listen or but again, like I'm, I'm still, I, I
don't know right from wrong and 99% of my life really probably.
And whenever I think I'm doing something good, I can be arming
that person. So it's this consistent practice
of trying to understand ourselves and other people.
So that's what I have on that, I guess.
Yeah, thanks for that. We're we're about out of time,
but one of the I really appreciate the different kind of
framing. So the idea of like this idea of
non killing and the separation can be really helpful.
And one of the things I appreciate most about our
discussions is that you find something somebody says
something in a way that opens a door for you.
And I love that about this group because we have just a lot of
different perspectives and ways of understanding.
And then it's, it's all the Dharma and it all helps us
moving forward. So before we close, is there
anyone who hasn't speaking, who's speaking?
I'm making stuff up now, hasn't spoken, who would like to before
we close? You're not obliged, just opening
the door for you if you would like.
I'm tier one. I just want to make a comment
about, you know, your the violent screaming into your pill
or something like that. That doesn't always work because
that's in the therapy group therapy one time and one of the
things we were going to do was they gave us a bat and we're
supposed to beat a pillow. I didn't want, I didn't want to
do it. That's not going to help me with
anything. So I just that brought back that
memory thinking about that the noise work.
And some of these things, they don't always work.
This is why it's a really good helpful practice to also kind of
observe what you try and the consequences of of what you try,
whatever that is, because. You did help that you know I'm
not that kind of angry person to take out my anger that way.
Well, I am that kind of angry person and the pillow didn't
work for me. So yeah, your mileage may vary.
That's what's important. What?
What does she do? Sean.
Sean, you said you check in and and we could do that every day.
We could just say where by feeling it because yesterday's
answer or tomorrow. Is right now that is a really
good point to close with and let's take that throughout the
week. Let's continue to check in with
ourselves and see what's coming up so we can get this kind of
wisdom from sitting with discomfort and whatever that is.
So we'll close, and when we close, we like to say, may the
fruit of our practice extend to all living beings, Swaha.