1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,000 I'm Danielle and tonight we're going to talk about pragmatism 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:08,920 and what it means to be a pragmatic Buddhism, Buddhist, or 3 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:14,600 what pragmatic Buddhism is. And the word pragmatism gets 4 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,320 used a lot sort of in popular culture. 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,080 And generally when people use it in popular culture, it's kind of 6 00:00:21,080 --> 00:00:25,240 interchangeable with practical. And practical is part of 7 00:00:25,240 --> 00:00:28,600 pragmatism, but it's not the whole thing of pragmatism. 8 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:35,040 So pragmatism is a philosophical tradition that looks at, tries 9 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:41,000 to determine what is quote UN quote true by examining evidence 10 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,520 of, of what would happen if it were true. 11 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:50,280 So pragmatism is about looking at our beliefs in particular and 12 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,840 trying to figure out which ones we can see evidence that they're 13 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:55,720 that that our belief is accurate. 14 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:00,360 Pragmatism asks us really to look at our direct experience. 15 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:05,160 So things that we can observe, we can see, feel, hear, whatever 16 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:11,000 else, and thinking about how the the consequences of that idea. 17 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,000 So if we have an idea, something that we believe is true, then 18 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,920 the idea with pragmatism is to say like, is it really true? 19 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,600 What evidence do we have to suggest that it might be true? 20 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,200 What would we look at so that we can see if something is true or 21 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,120 not? And later versions of pragmatism 22 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:33,240 and neopragmatism actually look really explicitly at the use of 23 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:38,360 language and social processes and how language and narratives 24 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:44,000 inform what we perceive as, you know, evidence and truth and 25 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,920 belief in all of those things. So when you put them together, 26 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:51,360 the really the idea is you can kind of determine what is true 27 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,440 based on the outcomes. Like you believe something will 28 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,560 have an effect and then you observe does it have that 29 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,360 effect? Or you can say like, I have this 30 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,160 belief to be true. Does that, is there evidence 31 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,480 that my belief is grounded in some other something other than 32 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,160 my own belief systems? So when we apply that to 33 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,520 Buddhism, it's the same sort of process. 34 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,440 So in pragmatic Buddhism, when we approach the Buddhist ideas, 35 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:20,160 we look at like, is there evidence that this idea is 36 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,480 accurate? Is there evidence that supports 37 00:02:22,640 --> 00:02:26,920 that this idea reflects the way that the world actually works? 38 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:33,600 So for example, you know, the Buddha said that this idea of 39 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:38,520 dissatisfaction, suffering or uncomfortableness, discomfort, 40 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,240 that is, is kind of characteristic of human 41 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,600 existence. So we can look at is, is there 42 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,080 something pervasive in the human existence that that keeps 43 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,360 bringing up these conditions of dissatisfaction? 44 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:52,640 So I'll just talk about my experience. 45 00:02:52,640 --> 00:02:55,440 I can look at my life and think like, yeah, I've had lots of 46 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,160 really joyful moments, but they're all sandwiched in 47 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:03,920 between boredom and unhappiness and threat and, you know, anger 48 00:03:03,920 --> 00:03:07,160 and all of these little moments that are unsatisfactory. 49 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,360 So when I look back on my life, yes, it's one of those things 50 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:15,840 where I have moments of joy, but there's also pretty consistent 51 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,040 moments of, you know, boredom and unhappiness and all of those 52 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,000 kinds of things. And then the Buddha says that 53 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,600 there's a source for that dissatisfaction in particularly 54 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,720 in craving, but also in our aversion and delusion. 55 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,240 And when I look back on my life, those moments when I've been 56 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,720 dissatisfied, are they driven by craving, by wanting things to be 57 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:39,320 different than the way that they are? 58 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,680 Are they driven by aversion, you know, wanting things to be 59 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,520 different than they are, or are they driven by a delusion, 60 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:48,760 wanting things to be different than they are? 61 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,000 And in my life, for sure, absolutely. 62 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:55,400 There are certainly times when I have been bored and it's that I 63 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,360 didn't want to be bored. I wanted to be active. 64 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,440 I wanted to be entertained. I wanted to be, you know, 65 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,560 something else or, or I had an unpleasant experience that I 66 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:05,800 didn't want to have. And a lot of my sort of 67 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,240 unpleasantness in my life has been a lot about like trying to 68 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,320 avoid pain, so engaging in activities that like, you know, 69 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,600 people pleasing or avoiding situations or something like 70 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:17,440 that because I wanted to avoid pain. 71 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:20,720 But for me, when I look back, like the biggest characteristic 72 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,840 is about delusion because power of stories. 73 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,840 I can tell myself a story and I believe it and it's not 74 00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:30,080 necessarily true. Stories about like what other 75 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,600 people's motivations are, what they're thinking or feeling. 76 00:04:33,840 --> 00:04:37,040 And then I just believe them to be true and I act as if they're 77 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,040 true. And then I often create the 78 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,320 conditions that I'm afraid will happen because of the stories 79 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,440 that I tell myself. So and so that's part that's 80 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,560 part of what it needs to be like pragmatic in terms of Buddhism 81 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,320 is looking at the claims that Buddhism makes and for us to 82 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,120 investigate. Is there evidence that those 83 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,120 claims ring true for us? And that's something that we can 84 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,080 all do in our individual experience. 85 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,520 This is one of those things that I mean, personally, I think that 86 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,280 Buddhism at its core is very pragmatic. 87 00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:07,080 And part of that is even the Buddha said like, try it for 88 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,520 yourself, you explore it, you investigate. 89 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,760 And that is a very pragmatic approach to the world. 90 00:05:13,840 --> 00:05:16,840 But for pragmatic Buddhism in particular, there are a couple 91 00:05:16,840 --> 00:05:19,920 of things that that make pragmatic Buddhism different 92 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,280 from other Buddhist sects. And that is in particular about 93 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:26,360 the sort of more mystical element, elements of pragmatism. 94 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,160 I mean, about Buddhism, things like, you know, reincarnation 95 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:34,760 and karma, that is about intergenerational caramels, 96 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,760 karma over like lifetimes, an individual's lifetime. 97 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:40,920 And when we look at that pragmatically, you know, people 98 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,600 can tell us stories about, you know, past life lives or feature 99 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:46,400 lives. And there are a lot of stories 100 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,640 like that in a lot of Buddhist texts, but they are stories. 101 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,040 So if we can't find a lot of like evidence that you could see 102 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,920 somebody, you know, died and then they came back to life or 103 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,600 they were reborn in another person, it's very difficult to 104 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,400 to actually find evidence of that. 105 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,120 So it's not that we're saying that that is not true. 106 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,000 It's saying that we don't have like some empirical evidence, 107 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,360 something that we can look at, see or touch or something like 108 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:12,080 that, that that provides evidence for that. 109 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,080 So for us, that means when we are approaching the more 110 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,040 mystical side of some Buddhist text, we just put those to the 111 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,960 side that can be interesting and you can still learn a lot from 112 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,680 it. So for the example with karma 113 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,400 and reincarnation, we think of that like within our lifetime. 114 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:34,080 We can certainly look at at our karma in the sense of like you 115 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,160 do something and there are consequences to that. 116 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,400 Something happens. It's just like A cause and 117 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,880 effect thing. You do something, then something 118 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,080 happens. That is, that's our idea of 119 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:44,640 karma. It's just like, what is the, 120 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:46,400 what's the next condition after that? 121 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,320 You put an action or a thought into the world and then 122 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,440 something happens. That's kind of karma. 123 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,840 Not in the popular culture, like karma is a bitch kind of a way, 124 00:06:54,840 --> 00:06:57,920 but just like things happen. You put things in the world and 125 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,920 then things happen. And that that we can look at and 126 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:02,480 we can see evidence of that in our lives. 127 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,200 We can say like, oh, I did this thing and then this other thing 128 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,560 happened. That's kind of a consequence of 129 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,600 that thing that I did. Good, bad or neutral. 130 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,320 And the idea of reincarnation also, we don't need to look at 131 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,360 past lives or future lives because we can see even in our 132 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,840 own life, all of us have gone through moments of rebirth, 133 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:23,560 right? We are not the same person that 134 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,520 we were when we were a child. We've changed a lot. 135 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:31,080 And that idea of the, the concept of impermanence and that 136 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,440 you can kind of have a brand new moment in the next moment. 137 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,160 You can sort of in that way, kind of be reborn in the next 138 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,760 moment. That is a really useful tool, we 139 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,240 think, because it means that whatever has happened, you have 140 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,600 the opportunity to try something new. 141 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,160 Like you can do something new and create a new moment out of 142 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,160 that. There's lots of other things 143 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,120 that we can talk about with this idea of a pragmatic approach to 144 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,680 Buddhism. But I think that really the most 145 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,640 helpful is that is the question of like, is it helpful? 146 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,200 Can you find evidence of it? And is it helpful? 147 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:03,880 Is it useful? Is it help? 148 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,240 Does it help you navigate the world more clearly? 149 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,120 Does it help you achieve the kind of like calmness and 150 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,640 peacefulness or clarity of thought that you are hoping for? 151 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,360 And those are all things that you can practice, you can say 152 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,280 well on, in this case, Buddhism. Buddhism says, you know, 153 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,520 meditation can help, you know, kind of clear your mic and help 154 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,720 you see the world more clearly. Does it? 155 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,800 You sit and you meditate. Do you have an opportunity to 156 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,000 see things more clearly? That's something that you can 157 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,039 test for yourself. Anyway, I'm going to make this 158 00:08:34,039 --> 00:08:36,520 brief and turn this over to you because I'd really like to hear 159 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,360 your questions or your observations or your comments 160 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,919 either about the idea of pragmatism in a pragmatic 161 00:08:42,919 --> 00:08:46,440 approach to Buddhism. Or if you've seen this kind of 162 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,440 evidence in your own life. If you can say like, yes, I've, 163 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,240 I've conducted this kind of experiment, tried something and 164 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,640 see saw that it worked for me or it didn't work for me or 165 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,200 something else. But anyway, I'm going to turn it 166 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,760 over to you. So when you start, please 167 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:03,200 introduce yourself so we can get to. 168 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,200 I know you a little bit better, but now this time is yours. 169 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,080 What do you have? As well. 170 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:17,200 I wonder what is Buddhism, since everything is changing always. 171 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,280 You know, even Buddhism is changing. 172 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,480 But I think that the moment you call it Buddhism, it kind of 173 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:30,080 takes form in a Crag Rat sense. Otherwise, it's Dallas. 174 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:37,040 Yeah, I don't know. It's not that it's empirical, 175 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:42,640 you know, you want to try to, you know, just there's only so 176 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:44,800 much for you in your life. You want to try and before it, 177 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,960 bye. But hence finding a teacher is 178 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:58,200 kind of a shortcut to that. But I mean, I think that's what 179 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,400 partly why I'm drawn towards Buddhism. 180 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,000 It's, it's sort of like a, it's very valuable, you know, 181 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:09,440 thought, you know, philosophy, you must, it could be clinical, 182 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,240 it can be philosophical, it could be mystical. 183 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:15,800 It's got all those nice elements to it. 184 00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:21,400 It acknowledges that there are things that we cannot explain. 185 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,280 You know, you just got to experience it. 186 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,920 You have to have faith because you don't want to waste your 187 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:30,960 time. You have to have faith in what 188 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:39,480 you're doing or not doing. And I think meditation is just a 189 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:44,320 very a good the engine behind behind this all. 190 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,680 Like if you stripped everything from it, the meditation would be 191 00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:53,880 like the heart to me. Just like if you strip all of 192 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,720 our ducks, then all of our clinging, all of our 193 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,600 personality, we would just be awareness. 194 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:01,880 We would just be. Yeah. 195 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:12,000 Yes, but that's all I got. I mean, I think those are really 196 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,880 good observations. And I think it's also true that 197 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,720 there that Buddhism has changed every time it moves to a new 198 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:19,320 country. So every time that Buddhism 199 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,880 moves from, you know, India throughout the East and then it 200 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,440 came to the West, it takes on the flavor of the culture where 201 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,200 it is. And that's part of what I mean, 202 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,760 Buddha even had that idea. You have to be able to deliver 203 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,880 the message in the language that that culture can understand. 204 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,000 And so it does look like there's a lot of different sort of 205 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,120 Buddhisms and it, and part of it is like, what is the, the 206 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,280 doorway into, into Buddhism? What does the door need to look 207 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,240 like for you to understand that it's a door that you can walk 208 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,640 through and that you can kind of experience. 209 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,120 So how, how you understand it. And that's a really useful part 210 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,320 too. I, I also the comment that you 211 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,880 made about meditation kind of being at the heart of it, it is 212 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,440 true that meditation is a really core part, a core practice in 213 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,600 any Buddhist practice. And part of that is so that we 214 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,440 can learn the lessons of Buddha Buddhism in our body. 215 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:17,240 So to connect the idea of the mind and the body, because they 216 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,440 are connected, you know, they work together. 217 00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:23,440 But especially in the West, we have a tendency to focus on 218 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:25,760 things in the mind and what we think about things and how we 219 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,880 can analyze things and how we can rationalize things, which is 220 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,600 not necessarily a bad thing, but we often disconnected from like 221 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:36,520 what our body is experiencing about that thing that we're 222 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,960 thinking or believing or, or seeing or whatever else. 223 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,240 And meditation is a good way to combine those two. 224 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,320 I don't know that I, I mean, it could be the heart of it that 225 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,160 that could be fine. Meditation is the heart of it. 226 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,040 I wouldn't say it's the end results. 227 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,720 I think one of the things that concerns me in the contemporary 228 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,440 mindfulness movement is that it's becoming more and more 229 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,480 detached from the Buddhist principles that kind of gave 230 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,240 rise to it. Not that meditation is only 231 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,600 associated with Buddhism. There are other traditions that 232 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,560 also meditate. So, but it is, it can be 233 00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:13,920 problematic if you're not meditating for something, right? 234 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,600 So, so yes, we want to increase our awareness. 235 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:18,640 That is a really good thing. We want to know what's going on 236 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:23,160 in our bodies and what's kind of happening in our body, mind sort 237 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,560 of connection. But then, you know, for what 238 00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:27,280 purpose? How does that help us kind of 239 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,760 navigate through the world? Because we're not monks sitting 240 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,360 up on a mountaintop that's been all of our day just meditating, 241 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:35,720 right? We have to engage with other 242 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,120 people and that's where the teachings can really be helpful. 243 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,480 So the, the meditation helps it settle into your body. 244 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,160 But then what, what is settling into your body? 245 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:46,920 What is it that you are trying to learn? 246 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,200 Because for, for many of us, for me in particular, I'm trying to 247 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,040 learn ways of being that are healthier for my mind, for my 248 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,280 body, for my relationships, for society. 249 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,240 And there's a lot of different ways to do that. 250 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:04,160 So meditation by itself can, you know, help you to see more 251 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,040 clearly. It can help, you know, an 252 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,560 assassin. This is C more clearly, but 253 00:14:09,560 --> 00:14:12,480 maybe we don't want to do that. Maybe that's not the best way to 254 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,280 use our, the, our newfound sort of enlightenment, right. 255 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,520 So there is, there's that other sense of like, and then what 256 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,240 about this awareness? What are you going to do with 257 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,800 this increased awareness that you get from meditation? 258 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,920 So I would argue that like, it's good to have both. 259 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,760 So to recognize that sitting in meditation is just a good thing 260 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,000 on its own. It's good to help regulate your 261 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,720 system, your nervous system on and your physiological system. 262 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,400 That is a good thing. And then what? 263 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,040 And that's where like the the rest of the teachings, I think 264 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:49,080 can be helpful. I think that ethics do 265 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:54,920 definitely essential. Of course, I I like to also 266 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,680 think it's just for my own meditation practice that it it 267 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:03,480 just kind of like I feel the change that I want to be. 268 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:09,760 I want to feel that it's ethical causes, you know, I just, it 269 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:17,040 just seems to come more natural. But I guess, yeah, I definitely 270 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,240 believe in the system of ethics, you know? 271 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:25,080 Well, I mean, that's kind of the idea that the more we engage in 272 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,520 a Dharma practice, the more natural it becomes. 273 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,320 And but it does take a while. Like most of us have lived our 274 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,640 whole life learning a different system, a different ethical 275 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,080 system, a different way of being, a different, you know, 276 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,840 way of relating to our bodies, ourselves and our and to others. 277 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:44,520 And so we're kind of trying to overcome a whole lifetime of 278 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:50,400 habits and of of practices that didn't necessarily help us. 279 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,200 But the idea is we practice enough a different way. 280 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,800 It will become just as natural and ingrained as our previous 281 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:02,000 habits that didn't really help us out so well, but it does take 282 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:12,420 time and practice. Speaking of Douglas, Speaking of 283 00:16:12,580 --> 00:16:15,620 ways that we relate to each other and Buddhism and the way 284 00:16:15,620 --> 00:16:22,160 that we are taught to to relate, there's this show called 285 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,360 Pluribus. Has anybody here seen that? 286 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,160 It's not finished. So you don't never know what's 287 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,800 going to happen in the end. But I'm not going to spoil it 288 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:32,800 for anymore. I'll just tell you the plot. 289 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:38,240 The plot is that there's this virus, I think, or some somehow 290 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,200 people get infected with something that was either 291 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,480 created or it's alien. We don't know all of that stuff 292 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:45,240 yet. They didn't. 293 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,360 Every human on earth just falls out for 10 minutes and then they 294 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:53,560 get back up and they're now living in this like collective 295 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:58,120 consciousness. Everyone is happy all the time. 296 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,040 They're completely nonviolent. I mean, for all intents and 297 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,280 purposes, they're Buddhists when they get up, but they're in this 298 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:09,040 collective consciousness and they don't have the desire or 299 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,839 the ability to do the sorts of things that we often do because 300 00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:15,240 of our attachment to our individuality. 301 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,800 And so there are some people who have not been who who this 302 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,800 hasn't happened to. There are about 12 people on 303 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:27,640 Earth, and all of them except one are happy with this new 304 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,200 experience because they can control these new people, right? 305 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,360 So now they can control everybody on Earth who's 306 00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:36,000 connected to this hive mind because those people will do 307 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,880 anything to make you happy, but they're enjoying it. 308 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,000 Some of them are enjoying it. And then there's this one person 309 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,400 who is the protagonist who is not enjoying it. 310 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,880 She's not happy. She wants us to return to being 311 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:49,120 this, you know, to be an individual. 312 00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:51,760 She wants to somehow get rid of this, eradicate this illness or 313 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,720 whatever it is, and to allow everyone to go back to being an 314 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,760 individual. And I just thought it was really 315 00:17:57,760 --> 00:17:59,320 interesting. Again, I don't know how the how 316 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,960 the show resolves itself. I don't know what's going to be 317 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,520 the message in the end, But it seems to me that the message is 318 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,480 one that we've seen in a lot of other types of popular culture 319 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:10,960 before. It's like this, this dichotomy 320 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,080 between individuality and collectivism, right, which 321 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:15,840 really goes back to the Cold War. 322 00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:20,320 And you know, we've seen this a lot of times, you know, this the 323 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,800 fight between capitalism and communism, Bolshevism. 324 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:29,920 And it's like we always, whenever we see this theme in 325 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,800 TV's or in TV shows or movies, there's always some extreme 326 00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:35,560 right. It's always like collectivism is 327 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:40,760 like this thing that turns you into a, you know, a drone right 328 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,240 there. There seems to be this idea in 329 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,400 our culture that it's like you're either fully individual 330 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,520 or you're, you're just like a complete drum. 331 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:50,920 You're a worker bee, you're an aunt. 332 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,600 And it's in this show that's kind of how they're depicting 333 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,200 the people who have become this collective consciousness. 334 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:58,600 And we've seen it a whole bunch of times. 335 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,040 But so anyway, just to go back to what you were saying, like we 336 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,360 have this, there's this antagonism in our culture 337 00:19:04,360 --> 00:19:10,880 towards thinking in the way that Buddhists say we should think, 338 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:12,640 right? We should think of ourselves as 339 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,840 connected to everyone, right, as not independently arising. 340 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,840 It's not an independent individual, but someone who is 341 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,640 connected to a network of consequences. 342 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,600 And and so I just think that there we have this strain in our 343 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,040 culture that is constantly driving us away from that. 344 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,360 And this show is just like one of the latest examples of that 345 00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:38,800 model thinking. That is part of what we're what 346 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,360 we're the challenge that we're dealing with, especially here in 347 00:19:41,360 --> 00:19:45,280 the US, because that idea of individualism is really strong 348 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,800 and it's hard to, it's hard to think about what's, what's the 349 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:50,200 alternative? What does it look like? 350 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,640 Because we do kind of have, we tend to be a binary culture 351 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:55,360 where we think it's like black and white. 352 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,600 And so then it is difficult to think about like, of course, we 353 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,600 are all individuals, but we, the argument that Buddhism is make 354 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,720 is we were all interconnected. And so for us, I think the 355 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,120 challenge is like how to become aware. 356 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,560 Of that interconnectedness, even though we don't necessarily feel 357 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,880 it or see it and we get all these messages from our culture 358 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,760 that that interconnectedness thing is a is a problem and that 359 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,400 is a challenge. It's one of the reasons that 360 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,280 it's a benefit to have a group to talk about this because we 361 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,600 don't get a lot of other opportunities to talk about 362 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,680 things like this because it's kind of heretical, you know, to 363 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,360 talk about like maybe it's OK that we are acknowledge that we 364 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:37,120 need other people, even though that shouldn't be a radical idea 365 00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:38,880 because we know we need other people. 366 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:43,200 But it's set up in our culture as if that were like a major 367 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,760 character for all flaw to need other people. 368 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,200 They didn't have anyone before talk about this term stunt and 369 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:56,720 this term practice alone, which is fine, but definitely finding 370 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,160 a community. Related to this, it's. 371 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,080 It's nuts. Yeah, I mean, Buddhism talks 372 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,240 about those 3 jewels, right? The idea of, of the Buddha as a 373 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,400 representation of like the potential for transformation. 374 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:15,160 We see the model of the Buddha and the Buddha managed to find a 375 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,000 sort of clarity of mind that we are all seeking. 376 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,720 And that's that's a good thing. So we can see that model. 377 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:25,320 It's, it also represents like our individual responsibility 378 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,720 are our individual actions. So, so that and that, that our 379 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:30,680 culture generally is really comfortable with that. 380 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,680 Of course, we are responsible for our own, you know, 381 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,600 well-being in our own actions. We are, we're comfortable with 382 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:43,240 that, with that idea in general. And then the the second jewel of 383 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,040 the Dharma is like this. All of these teachings that we 384 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,520 can listen to and we can read about and we can learn about and 385 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,640 then try them out for ourselves. And also the methods, the 386 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,480 meditation and all of that. But it's the third jewel that is 387 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,000 most difficult, particularly in our culture. 388 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,680 And the third jewel is the Sanga. 389 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,600 It's a community of practice. It's a group of people where you 390 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,240 can talk about ideas like this that may be difficult to talk 391 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,000 about elsewhere. It's also the community, your 392 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,480 practice is really good to help you maintain your practice, 393 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,160 right. So one of the biggest challenges 394 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,960 is trying to make sure that you meditate every day. 395 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:20,600 And that's on you as an individual. 396 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,600 It can be challenging, right? You work full time and maybe you 397 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,840 have a family and you know, maybe you have all these other 398 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:27,680 obligations. It's really difficult to say 399 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,040 like I'm going to make time to meditate. 400 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,480 And so the group can help you with that because then you sit 401 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,240 here and I mean, like most of us probably don't sit for 40 402 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,240 minutes in silence by ourselves. I mean, if, if you do fantastic, 403 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,200 that's, that's great. That's what we're going for. 404 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,680 But for me, it took a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of years of 405 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,120 coming to this group every Thursday night and practicing 406 00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:53,720 with a group so that then I could go on my own and do it on 407 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,640 my own and do it individually after that. 408 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,320 But I still need the group in part because communities of 409 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,520 practice not only give us a place to talk about these kinds 410 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,240 of things and help us to stick to our practice, but a community 411 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:12,200 of practice like this asonga can also help point out when we are 412 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:13,920 about the things that we can't see. 413 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,320 I mean, I've talked a lot more recently about this idea of 414 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,560 delusion. Really, it's because it's a big 415 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,280 one for me. I can tell myself such big 416 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,480 stories that I just really believe are true. 417 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,160 And then I can no longer see that it's a story. 418 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,000 It's just I just believe that it's like capital T truth. 419 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,400 And it's the the song of it can help me and say like, Hey, you 420 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,320 keep saying that thing, but that's not my experience. 421 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,640 I don't see it that way or, or something like that. 422 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,120 And that can be, it can be really beneficial because it's a 423 00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:45,280 community that can support you, of course, and hold you 424 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,200 accountable. And that can be a real benefit 425 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,840 when you're trying to do something that is difficult and 426 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,600 not in line with what everybody else is doing. 427 00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:00,280 Had any of you approached Buddhism with this pragmatic 428 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,960 lens? Before hearing about pragmatic 429 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,960 Buddhism, Did you think about Buddhism in terms of like, what 430 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,240 are the consequences of my actions? 431 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,160 And is this, can I find evidence of what these Buddhist teachings 432 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:15,360 are? Is that, had any of you 433 00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:19,760 approached it that way before? I mean, and I asked because it's 434 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,880 become really popular now in a lot of scientific circles. 435 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,560 So there's psychologists and neuroscientists and biologists 436 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,120 and physicists that are kind of testing a lot of Buddhist 437 00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:32,560 principles to see if they can find evidence of it. 438 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,800 So it's become a lot more popular. 439 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,560 There's a lot more books about like the benefits of of 440 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,280 meditation and what happens physiologically is benefit 441 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,560 meditation. Those are all that's like a 442 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,120 really pragmatic approach to to Buddhism. 443 00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:49,800 So had that. Is that something that had that 444 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,000 you had experience of before you came here? 445 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,000 I don't know if this directly applies. 446 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:02,160 My name's Aaron, I came to Boo. This would booze with a couple 447 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,800 of different kind of anchors or pointers, but one of the large 448 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,280 groups was an Alan Watts recording it. 449 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,600 I was listening to it spoke of you know, is there a great power 450 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,480 in the world Is there God and then fortuitous just not a 451 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:29,520 useful question and I think that was the largest draw on we don't 452 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:34,200 know that there's no usual way of knowing that there is no data 453 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,440 that could support this one way or another. 454 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:45,160 And so through through annotation of Dharma in 455 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,760 practice, you can find this very my mother's a science teacher 456 00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:56,920 and site of the method is ingrained in my soul and and 457 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,680 that is to me fried my base greetings. 458 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:08,680 Just it's just assigned it weapon hypothesize no experiment 459 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:18,600 Sir and then re accept. I think that is a really useful 460 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,240 part of Buddhism in general, and I think it's a real advantage 461 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:26,240 that those of us in the West have because we can, like, look 462 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,880 at things in a new way so we can start looking at all of this. 463 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,800 Like Buddhism has been around forever. 464 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:36,520 We had so many texts, so much writing about what Buddhism is 465 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,560 and what Buddhism says that we have a real opportunity to step 466 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,760 back and like analyze. Do we just, does this resonate 467 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,360 with me? Does this help me? 468 00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:48,240 Is this useful to me? Does this help me to see more 469 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,800 clearly? We have a lot that we can kind 470 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,200 of pick from. And I think for that reason, in 471 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,640 pragmatic Buddhism, although our lineage does go through Chan and 472 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,040 Zen Buddhism, it's one of the reasons that we use like the 473 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,200 silent meditation is one of our major meditation techniques 474 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,400 because that's what's common in Chan and Zen Buddhism. 475 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,840 But we also can look at other parts, other Buddhist practices 476 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,560 to say, is this useful? Is this helpful? 477 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,880 Does this help us to understand it better? 478 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,840 Does it help us to practice but better? 479 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,520 And that is exactly, it's like proposing A hypothesis. 480 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,280 Does this work for us? And I think that's the real 481 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,560 that's a real benefit of from these newer sort of more dynamic 482 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,440 approaches to Buddhism that are coming out of the West and that 483 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,800 are reflecting a lot of western culture is that we don't 484 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,600 necessarily have to say like this is what is capital T truth, 485 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,960 because this lineage of Buddhism says this is what's true. 486 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,840 We can say like, well, let's we can evaluate that. 487 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,440 Is that is that true? Does it fit our culture? 488 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,960 Does it fit our life? And that's that can be a really 489 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,160 useful thing. We just for us in pragmatic 490 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,120 Buddhism, as long as we keep coming back to asking the 491 00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:04,440 question because, you know, in I've talked about this also like 492 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,800 we are not as a species and particularly as Americans, we 493 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,880 are not comfortable with uncertainty. 494 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,800 We have a very low tolerance for ambiguity in general. 495 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,760 And so we have a tendency to like, find the answer, OK, this 496 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,760 is what's true. And then we stop questioning 497 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,480 because now that's comfortable. Now I understand that this is 498 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,720 true and one of the real benefits of Buddhism in general, 499 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,880 but I think pragmatic Buddhism in particular is that like the 500 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,000 question is really what's important. 501 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,520 It's not as important as the answer. 502 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,440 It's engaging in the process of questioning, questioning, 503 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,840 whatever that is. You know, this meditation 504 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,080 technique, is this meditation technique effective? 505 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,760 For me, That's something you should keep questioning. 506 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,160 Try something else or try something new. 507 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,960 Or you know particular teachers, are they effective at explaining 508 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:53,640 something? They help you understand 509 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,520 something great, not try something new. 510 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,840 I like the questioning part, even if it means it puts us 511 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,720 right back into that state of ambiguity and uncertainty. 512 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,920 But I think there's real benefit to getting more comfortable with 513 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,120 not knowing and figuring out how to navigate the world when you 514 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,360 don't know. Because in truth, we don't 515 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,200 always know, even if we convince ourselves that we do. 516 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,840 And we still need to engage in the world like we are not. 517 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,960 We're not withdrawing from the world, so we should just keep 518 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:32,880 questioning. My name's Carol, and I so 519 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,240 appreciate how you articulate everything. 520 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,440 The questioning is what I really appreciate because how you from 521 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:44,480 the background of being a Christian born Baptist, you 522 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,600 didn't question everything was kind of course that to you. 523 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:54,240 And I find that this practice is more demanding of me and I can 524 00:29:54,240 --> 00:30:01,120 question and there's a source of knowledge within that I'm 525 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:07,400 capable of learning more and I didn't. 526 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,720 That wasn't. I would tell a story about 527 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,600 conversation I had with a friend who called me. 528 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:20,560 His mother had just passed away and he was a born again 529 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,880 Christian. His concern was he didn't think 530 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:30,160 his mother was going to happen because she had not been 531 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,200 baptized. That's kind of sad. 532 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:40,720 They have that tunnel vision of thought and not questioning 533 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,000 anything that that's kind of like the background I was raised 534 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,360 in. So I really appreciate this 535 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:53,640 ability to use my mind to question things and find out 536 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:58,400 there's a whole source of possibilities. 537 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,440 It is, it is liberating in that sense, right? 538 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,080 Like 'cause it is, you can open it up all the things that you 539 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,520 believe to be true. You can start questioning them 540 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,120 and exploring them. That gives you something to kind 541 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,560 of focus on. But it's also helpful to like 542 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,120 have a community to kind of like touchdown with because that can 543 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,800 be, it's can be a little bit exhausting to your point, like 544 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,040 to keep, to keep questioning and to not know if the, if this is 545 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,880 the, you know, right answer or the thing that I'm supposed to 546 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,360 do. And it can be really helpful to 547 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,840 kind of like give yourself a, a grounding. 548 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,960 So this is one of those things that I, I, you know, I'm a, I'm 549 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,280 a product of this culture. I tend to go to extremes like 550 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,080 black and white. I'm going to go hard one way and 551 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,360 hard the other way. Before Buddhism, I was like, 552 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,280 yeah, I'm balanced on average because I go so hard one way and 553 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,600 so hard the other way. Like, yeah, on average it's 554 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,400 balanced, but it wasn't very balanced. 555 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,880 And so it's helpful to when you get that point, if you get to 556 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,040 that point where you're overwhelmed. 557 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,200 So I've done this also where I was like, oh, I have to question 558 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,280 everything. And and then reading a lot about 559 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,160 physics where like this is actually like there's more space 560 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,200 between all these molecules and the floor. 561 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,240 Then there is actual floor. And then like, am I even sitting 562 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,120 on the floor? I can go to some crazy places, 563 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,640 is what I'm saying? Like I can go way too far and I 564 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,040 become kind of untouched, weathered. 565 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,000 And that's when I'm like, OK, I had to stop questioning. 566 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:23,160 Now I have to find something that I believe is true, even if, 567 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,200 you know, I don't have evidence for it right now. 568 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,920 I have to find some place where I can come back and be like, OK, 569 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,640 there may be more space between the molecules in this floor than 570 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,800 there is floor, but I can feel a floor. 571 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,560 This is a this is a thing that I can feel. 572 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,040 This is true for me right now. This is real for me right now. 573 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,520 And then once I can get to that space, then I can go back into 574 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,480 questioning again. But if you are like me and you 575 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,200 tend to go way too hard and things start to unravel and 576 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,520 you're kind of like untethered, find something to tether 577 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,160 yourself to. And then once you feel grounded 578 00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:00,200 again, then you can go back to questioning again just to am I? 579 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,040 Am I the only one? Is it just me? 580 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:08,520 OK, fine. I mean, one big question would 581 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:13,520 be how do you feel? You know, are you suffering? 582 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,480 Is what you're doing working, what they're doing working? 583 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,520 Because sometimes we don't even be settled for things. 584 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:32,800 We the brain creates shortcuts automatically, but like 585 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,840 questioning how you feel. About something is a big one, 586 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,240 yeah. That is for me too, because 587 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,720 before I found Buddhism, I just hadn't, I had no real idea about 588 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:45,920 what was happening in my body or mind. 589 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,120 It's just like I was, and a lot of people are like, we're on 590 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,120 sort of automatic pilot, right? And I was just very reacted to 591 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:54,880 things. So something would happen and I 592 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,960 just would react and I didn't even realize like, hey, I have a 593 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,120 feeling there's, there's some sensation in my body that's 594 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,960 that's happening before I react to that thing. 595 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,520 And Buddhism has really helped me to be like, wait, what is 596 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,440 what's happening? What am I feeling? 597 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,159 Like I feel the need to do this reaction, whatever it is, like, 598 00:34:13,159 --> 00:34:15,080 where'd that come from? And where is it in my body? 599 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,480 What does that feel like? And that's been really useful. 600 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,679 And it, it has been, I mean, so it's been, you know, like 15 601 00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:26,360 years of practice, but I've gotten much, much better at, at 602 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,840 knowing that like I'm having an experience, like I am feeling 603 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,239 this thing either physically in my body or emotionally or having 604 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,239 this thought. And that's really liberating 605 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,560 because, you know, for the longest time I just was like, 606 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:39,639 this is just the way the world is. 607 00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:42,120 And it was like a, it was like a pinball and a pinball machine 608 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,159 just careening from one side to the other. 609 00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:48,080 So that's better like what's happening in this moment. 610 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,719 I think it goes back to your original point about awareness, 611 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,120 right? Like just can you be aware of 612 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,080 what's happening even in your physical body? 613 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,680 Because that was another thing that I, that was kind of cut off 614 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,320 from my emotions and my physical sensations. 615 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,200 Like I didn't want to have anything to do with any of that. 616 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,080 The body's gross, right? That's what we grow up learning. 617 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,680 So now I'm like, the body is just a thing. 618 00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:12,200 It's a it's a thing and there's just be aware of it. 619 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:26,120 And be aware of what do you identify where like what's when 620 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:32,080 you re identify with our thoughts and what we reject, you 621 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:36,400 know what we think is right. Yeah, that's pants the question. 622 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:42,480 Yeah, we get lost and like I'll be thinking about thoughts. 623 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,920 You know, I was trying to meditate and I'm like my 624 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,560 thinking, I'm thinking, thinking about making, you know, and 625 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,960 just, we get lost real easy, you know, And it's nice to have 626 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:58,640 something where I can send her wherever I'm at, you know, when 627 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:04,680 I'm driving, whatever, once I'm engaged at a moment, you know, 628 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,600 and I see what it takes mentally. 629 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:11,800 But then if I can get a chance to pause and that really can 630 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:17,280 power my decisions. And my actions, yeah, I can find 631 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,080 that nice pause. I always say that my Buddhist 632 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:25,040 practice is a cushion between my crazy and you're crazy. 633 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,160 And the more that I practice, the bigger that cushion gets. 634 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,760 Which means like the more crazy I can observe and get observed 635 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,640 absorbed by this, this practice cushion. 636 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,520 And the more of your crazy, you can just be who you are and it 637 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,240 gets observed by this practice cushion. 638 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,720 I remember, you know, early on when I started really meditating 639 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,320 and engaging in this Buddhist practice, like my family would 640 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,840 notice, they notice a difference in part because I was just less 641 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:50,480 reactive. Like I could pause more. 642 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,200 There was just more of a space between whatever thing that they 643 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,000 just did or said and the reaction that just automatically 644 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,560 came up for me. And they would notice, like, if 645 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,360 I started to not engage in my regular meditation because I'd 646 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,880 get more reactive and they'd start to be like, have you 647 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,480 meditated lately? And I was like, I don't want to 648 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,000 hear that right now. I mean, no, I haven't. 649 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,040 You are correct. But so, yeah, so I just try to 650 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:20,000 keep that meditation cushion filled up, filled up as much as 651 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,000 I can. If it's a nice, it's a nice 652 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:30,800 buffer. My name's Jane. 653 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,840 I just wanted to thank you all. Like, I'm this is my first time 654 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,160 coming here and I just came here to learn about this. 655 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,360 And so thank you for this experience. 656 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,120 I've enjoyed it so. That's all I wanted to say. 657 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,640 So, well, it's good to have you, yeah. 658 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:51,720 Thanks. It's one of those, it's a real 659 00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:53,840 benefit. We always get a lot of newcomers 660 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,440 and it's a benefit to our Sanga because it makes it much more 661 00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:58,800 dynamic. You know, that kind of 662 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,400 questioning part. It's easy for a community to 663 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,360 kind of get settled into. It's kind of regular, habitual 664 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,360 ways of being, right? You have the same group of 665 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,200 people, they come together the same time, they do the same 666 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,520 thing. It ends up becoming like a very 667 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:17,240 familiar, comfortable routine. And as we've said, like the idea 668 00:38:17,240 --> 00:38:19,840 is not to to be comfortable, not that you should be 669 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,440 uncomfortable, but that you should be in that kind of space, 670 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,320 that dynamic space where it is changing. 671 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,600 And it's a real benefit when newcomers come in because it 672 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,320 helps to change this, the space so that we have a little like 673 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,120 it's a living community, a living sanga. 674 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:39,640 So I'm glad that you're here. I'm Mary. 675 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,560 So the, the word pragmatism just seems very complicated. 676 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:52,720 So thank you for talking about it today and and kind of 677 00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:56,880 explaining it more. But I think that one of the 678 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:02,800 things that I have really enjoyed about Buddhism here is 679 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,240 like you're talking about delusion, for one example, like 680 00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:12,040 just learning to see the world a little differently then my 681 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:17,440 traditional Christian upgrade to be more like, oh, this is 682 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:23,080 something everyone has. Everyone has brains that make up 683 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:30,280 stories for them and they don't. You can't always trust what you 684 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,640 think happened, why this person did what they did. 685 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:35,800 It might have nothing to do with you. 686 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,160 So I mean, just learning things like that here, it's been 687 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,000 helpful. It might have nothing to do with 688 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,800 you. That's the best message that 689 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,920 I've gotten from this practice actually, because I mean, I, I 690 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,280 grew up in an alcoholic home And so I thought everything was 691 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,280 actually my fault. And that, that pattern, that's 692 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,160 the story that I told myself for a really, really long time. 693 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,840 And so it colored like all of my interactions with with people 694 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,560 and, and I, it would make me like, I would just, I would 695 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,400 assume I'll just automatically like you must be thinking or 696 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,240 feeling this thing, this thing that is like antagon. 697 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,880 Againistic towards me, because that's been my experience and I 698 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,280 didn't even realize that was a story. 699 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:14,600 It was a story that I was telling myself. 700 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,800 It wasn't true. And it took like many years of 701 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,840 thinking like, huh, I just assume that that is true, but 702 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,840 it's not. So maybe like a little space, a 703 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,400 little pause and recognize that, OK, this is the story that's 704 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,200 coming up for me. They have their own story in 705 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:32,640 this, but I don't know their story. 706 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,120 Just because I feel like I, I, I assume what their story is 707 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:37,520 doesn't mean it's their actual story. 708 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:42,800 So that's been like the single most liberating thing. 709 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,840 I think for me it's like I don't have to believe, even though my 710 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:50,160 own stories that I tell myself. I gotta do it over myself, I 711 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:57,040 guess, you know? Been sickling, but I'm always 712 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,000 projecting like out of the judge of me, you know, probably 713 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:06,120 because maybe I judge, you know, usually people that accuse 714 00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:08,960 things are not usually, but a lot of times if people accuse 715 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:15,040 things and so they're doing it so so yeah, I try not to be as 716 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,480 judge mental and then not judging people and maybe. 717 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,360 Judging or not, you know, nice, hard. 718 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:25,920 It is hard. And, and the other part of that 719 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,360 is that like just because somebody said a thing doesn't 720 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,440 mean it's true. And that's like a really hard 721 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:34,880 thing to get, but but so liberating. 722 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,560 And there's a lot of difficult things at work and people are 723 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:39,880 saying things about me that aren't true. 724 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,600 And I can just be like, just cuz they said a thing does not mean 725 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,760 it's true. But I feel it every time I was 726 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,040 like, Oh, that is not true. And I but I can still be like, 727 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,840 just cuz somebody said a thing, even if I'm the one that's 728 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,760 saying it about myself, just cuz somebody said a thing doesn't 729 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,360 make it true. And that's really helpful. 730 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,520 So whether somebody is judging me or not judging me, it doesn't 731 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,000 really matter, right? Like that's not something that's 732 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:05,920 happening inside me. That's something that's 733 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,360 happening inside somebody else. And I, if I give myself enough 734 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:13,360 space, I can make a choice about whether I take that on or I 735 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,720 don't take that on. And I didn't, I never really 736 00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:19,680 knew that that was a choice. There's, there's a story about 737 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,520 the Buddha that talks about like not accepting gifts of abuse. 738 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,360 And I find this like so fantastic. 739 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,400 Like the story goes something like when the Buddha's Buddha 740 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:33,040 first started teaching, there were other sort of gurus and 741 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,040 then he started getting their, their following their followers. 742 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,040 So they, they left these other gurus and went to go talk to the 743 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:40,600 Buddha. So some of the gurus got really 744 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,800 pissed off and they would come and talk to the Buddha and be 745 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,520 like, you're stealing my followers, you're a bad man. 746 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,600 Why are you doing this? And then the Buddha would be 747 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,280 like, I do not have to accept your gift of abuse. 748 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,680 That, that feeling that you're having, that anger that you're 749 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,000 having that's on yours. I'm not not stealing anybody. 750 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,960 I'm, I'm giving the message about like this is the message 751 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,000 about unsatisfactoriness and how you can work through 752 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,120 unsatisfactoriness. That's that's all I'm doing. 753 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,560 And I think about that all of the time because that's, that's 754 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,480 a case where somebody is like judging you or saying something 755 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,720 mean to you. Like they are giving you the 756 00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:14,600 gift of abuse. You don't have to take the gift 757 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:19,960 of abuse, which is I will just say much for me much parter to 758 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,240 do than to say, but it still is one of those things. 759 00:43:23,240 --> 00:43:26,800 If I can just recognize somebody is some of my Co workers, 760 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:28,640 they're giving me gifts of abuse. 761 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,000 I don't have to be like, Oh, can I take that? 762 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:36,640 I can just say like, thank you. I don't accept your gift of 763 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,360 abuse because just because you said a thing does not make it 764 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,200 true. So I have to remind myself that 765 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,560 a lot. But but it when I do, it's 766 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,640 amazing. It's like a superpower, really. 767 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:54,600 I am thinking about not necessarily the gift of abuse, 768 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:59,680 but also just the, you know, trying to accept things that 769 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,320 happen the way they happen. I had to say it was the last day 770 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:06,600 of class at university, and it's everything that could go wrong 771 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,920 was going wrong. I woke up and I went into the 772 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,560 kitchen and the soup that I made this like squash suit, but in 773 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:15,920 that squash sheet that I made yesterday was planning on eating 774 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,840 in the morning was still sitting on the the oven right. 775 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,240 So I never I never blended it or put it away. 776 00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:25,240 I just forgot. And then I was having all types 777 00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:28,200 of problems with like my files trying to get things ready, my 778 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,480 slideshow and all this stuff ready for my lecture. 779 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:35,200 And then I, you know, got out of the house late and I get in the 780 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,600 car and the, the gas tank is on empty somehow. 781 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,200 So I have to, I'm late already, but I have to stop for gas and 782 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:41,720 I'm trying to get out of the parking lot. 783 00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:43,880 These people are coming in and I get stuck and end up having to 784 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,360 back up. And so then I'm like, you know, 785 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:48,600 I'm now I'm hyped up. So I have to get to class and I 786 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,120 to get there, there's no parking space and all the spaces that I 787 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,000 usually can park in, maybe because I'm a little bit later, 788 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,440 there is no parking. And then I get halfway to my 789 00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,120 office and I don't have my cell phone with me. 790 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:03,560 I left it in the car and and then I would go to go to my 791 00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:05,880 office and I print the things up, but the but the printer's 792 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:07,360 not working. You finally get the printer 793 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:08,720 working. I'm rushes a class and I 794 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,480 realized I don't have my clicker with me and I got into the 795 00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:14,440 classroom. I actually got there just on 796 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:19,280 time and everything was fine. And I taught my class well too. 797 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:23,040 I had two classes, but I was able to not perfectly. 798 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,680 I was a bit frustrated during a lot of that sequence that I just 799 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,280 told you about, but I was able to just tell myself, you know, 800 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:29,880 if I get there late, it's going to be fine. 801 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,080 If I don't have my quicker, I'll just use the keyboard if I can't 802 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,280 find a parking space. You know, these things happen 803 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:40,880 and you know, not perfectly, but I you were asking about how we 804 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,200 use these things to help us in our daily lives. 805 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,760 And I feel like I run up against situations like that and I don't 806 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,320 react to them the same way that I maybe would have before I 807 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,680 started practice and grooves. And that's the biggest like win, 808 00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,920 the biggest single win. We're about out of time. 809 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,360 But if there anyone that has something that you would like to 810 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,200 share before we close, I mean, I'll open the door for anyone 811 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:04,640 who hasn't spoken if you would like to. 812 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,600 You are not obliged, but give you an opportunity. 813 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,760 And Gay said the grammatism helps us in this day and age of 814 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:17,120 craigmaticism within. We have a lot more information 815 00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,800 just thrown at us in the view. The ladder's OK. 816 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,840 I mean that 50, I think it confuses us a lot more. 817 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,360 So that's my folks. And listening to you in this. 818 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,760 Yeah, you too. That's what I got out of it. 819 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,360 Yeah, we're in a confusing world, and it's helpful if we 820 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:36,960 can figure out a way to kind of bring it down to the ground 821 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,960 instead of like. Socially, some of them would be 822 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,880 had over a well. Yeah, yeah. 823 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,320 Well, we will close. And when we close, we like to 824 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:51,680 say, may the fruit of our practice extend to all living 825 00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:53,400 beings, Svaha.