1 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,760 I'm Danielle, and tonight we're going to focus on the five 2 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,640 aggregates. So we talked really a little bit 3 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:19,280 just about what the concept of not self is in Buddhism and 4 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:24,080 really at its core is trying to rethink the way that we think 5 00:00:24,080 --> 00:00:29,840 about who we are instead of what we normally think of as like a 6 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,360 permanent unchanging self, like who you are. 7 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,320 I think about this a lot. My mom always tells this story 8 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,200 like you are who you are on the birthing table, even though we 9 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,840 have direct proof, like my sister was a particular way she 10 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,200 got into a marriage in a very abusive marriage. 11 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,800 She totally changed like who she was, how she interacted, the 12 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,960 things that she valued, and then she got divorced and then she 13 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,160 changed into another person. So it's interesting that my mom 14 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,120 still holds this belief that you have this permanent, unchanging 15 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,280 self even with direct evidence. And she's not the only one. 16 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:07,680 Many of us believe about ourselves. 17 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:09,960 Like I'm a Hawaii. I've always believed this is 18 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,640 always who I am. And one of the things that 19 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,440 Buddhism is trying to tell us is that that belief about having 20 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:20,480 this permanent, unchanging self can cause us suffering. 21 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:25,880 So tonight we're going to focus on the five aggregates and how 22 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,680 that can help us kind of unpack the idea of the self. 23 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,040 And these five elements, the Buddha says is like, this is 24 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,680 what makes up a person. These are like the the 25 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,440 characteristics, the elements of the of a person and we end up 26 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:43,000 getting overly attached to one or more of these and that's what 27 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,120 leads to our suffering. Not that they exist, but that we 28 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:50,520 get attached to a particular incarnation of, of one of these. 29 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,800 And I'm going to focus on one in particular because I think it's 30 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,760 the one that is, that it's the source of the, the ego actually. 31 00:01:57,760 --> 00:01:59,960 And that's I think one of the things that causes us the most 32 00:01:59,960 --> 00:02:02,240 trouble. So the five hour aggregates. 33 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,400 The 1st is form, and this has to do with our physical form. 34 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,400 This is, you know, the body, the material world, our material 35 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,400 sort of self. The second is feeling or 36 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,760 sensations, sensations that arise in particular with contact 37 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,680 from the external world. So contact that comes in through 38 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:25,280 our senses, pleasure, pain, you know, neutral sensations, those 39 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,600 kinds of things. The third is perception, and 40 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,320 this is the recognition or identification of objects, 41 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,680 events, and experiences that we had just sensed. 42 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,640 And then the 4th are mental formation, Mental formation, 43 00:02:39,640 --> 00:02:41,680 Sankara. These are the thoughts, 44 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:47,120 emotions, intentional intentions, volition, volitional 45 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,000 actions. This is the one that I'm going 46 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,040 to focus on the most. And then there's consciousness, 47 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:56,480 you know, the awareness kind of our overall awareness of sort of 48 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,080 what's happening. I think when we're take we're 49 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,840 talking about the concept of the self, it's kind of easier for us 50 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,320 to recognize the form. Like we can recognize our body 51 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,480 has changed over time. We're not necessarily we may not 52 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:11,320 love it. Those of us who are aging, we 53 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,000 may not love that our body is changing, but we can at least 54 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:15,760 recognize it's something that bodies do. 55 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,920 We recognize that our body is not the shape that it was when 56 00:03:18,920 --> 00:03:21,280 we were two years old and we can let go of that. 57 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,000 We recognize that's part of of who we are is changing. 58 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,360 We do get attached to that. I know from experience of aging 59 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,760 when you're like, hey, you know, 10 years ago I could walk up and 60 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,000 down the stairs no problem. And now it like my knees crack 61 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:35,680 and ache every time. I don't love it. 62 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,520 And I wish that weren't the case, but it is the case. 63 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:40,120 And at least we can recognize that. 64 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,120 Even the other ones about like sensation and recognition, we 65 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,880 recognize sometimes, you know, we get misinformation through 66 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,800 our senses. We think we hear something and 67 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:53,040 it's not what we heard. And we can revise that. 68 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,400 We can recognize like, oh, I misheard something or I 69 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,040 interpreted something in a particular way. 70 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:02,000 There's a lot of these that I think we can identify more and 71 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,120 let go of. We still get attached to them 72 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:05,680 and that does cause us suffering. 73 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,040 But I really think that the one that is the most challenging, or 74 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,120 maybe it's just challenging for me, we can have this. 75 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,880 This discussion are the Sankara is the mental formations, 76 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:19,360 because this is where our beliefs about who we are really 77 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,480 live. This is these mental formations, 78 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,680 you know, our, our thoughts and our feet, our emotional 79 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,560 feelings, the, the, the way that the things that we believe are 80 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,440 our values, those kinds of things. 81 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,240 And this is where we often get really, really attached and 82 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,960 what, what we think of as defining our self, defining what 83 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,200 we are. Like I am, I mean, and this goes 84 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,040 all through Western philosophy, you know, with Descartes. 85 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,400 I think, therefore I am like, well, Buddhism is like you 86 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,440 think, but that's not who you are. 87 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,800 Like we all have thoughts. It's not kind of who you are 88 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:58,960 doesn't necessarily define you, but we get so attached to our 89 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:03,560 thoughts or our emotions as if they said something profound 90 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,720 about who we are. Like if you have a thought that 91 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,400 means something significant, I've told this story for you to 92 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,600 you before. One of the benefits of sitting 93 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,760 in Zazen is you have the opportunity to observe all of 94 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:17,720 this. Thoughts arise, you know, 95 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:22,360 feelings arise, sensations arise and you are here to just sit. 96 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,440 That's that's what you're doing. But you have the opportunity to 97 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,600 see the kind of randomness that comes, but that doesn't have 98 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,960 anything to do necessarily with who you are. 99 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,280 And this, my example of this is always one time when I was 100 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:37,560 sitting pleasantly. James knows his story. 101 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,040 He's laughing already. I was sitting pleasantly in 102 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,040 Zazan, just having a moment. And I thought penis. 103 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,600 And then I was like, holy shit, why am I thinking penis? 104 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:47,360 What does this mean? Does this do I have to cry 105 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,120 because I'm gay? And I was like, do I have to 106 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:50,760 question my identity? What does this mean? 107 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,480 And so I was like, oh, my God, it's just a thought. 108 00:05:53,840 --> 00:05:56,840 It's just a word. So this is what I always tell 109 00:05:56,840 --> 00:05:59,640 people, you know, you have a thought, you have a belief, you 110 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,520 think it's important, you think it defines who of you all who 111 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,120 you are. But sometimes it's just penis. 112 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,440 So this is part of like, can you let go of that? 113 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:14,160 And, and so, and if you can identify some experience that 114 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,280 can allow you to let go of these mental formations, it helps a 115 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:19,640 lot. So now whenever I'm attached to 116 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,920 some emotion or I attached to some, you know, thought or some 117 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,960 belief that I have to do this or that, or the other thing I can 118 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,680 say like maybe this is just penis and it allows me to kind 119 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,440 of step back and be like, OK, I feel like this thought is really 120 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:34,800 important. This feeling is really 121 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:36,920 important, but maybe it's not really important. 122 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,000 Maybe it's just a random thing that my body is throwing up. 123 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,520 Maybe I can just sit with this and just be like, OK, so I had 124 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,120 this random thought. I can move on. 125 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,320 But we tend not to, right? This is where in the mental 126 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:54,040 formations is where like our like we get offended by things 127 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:55,920 because we believe things about ourselves. 128 00:06:56,280 --> 00:07:00,600 The stories that we tell live in these Sankaras in this in these 129 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,240 mental formations, the beliefs that we have about I'm this type 130 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:06,200 of person. These are the things I like. 131 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,640 These are the things that I do. And then somebody says like you 132 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,160 did this really hurtful thing and that's not the story you're 133 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,920 telling yourself about yourself. You can get really hurt and 134 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,400 offended. And instead, what Buddhism is 135 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,280 asking us to say is like, OK, so first there's some emotion 136 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,360 that's arising up. Somebody said something about 137 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,120 you that you believed was not true, probably because it's 138 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,720 contradicting some story that you told about yourself doesn't 139 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,400 mean that it's true. It doesn't mean that it's true 140 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,640 that you did it. It doesn't mean that it's true 141 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:37,800 that somebody pointed it out to you. 142 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:39,600 It doesn't mean that it's true that you felt it. 143 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,440 It's just a thing. It means that it's a thing, 144 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,640 whatever that experience is, that happens. 145 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,720 And if we can get to the point where we just have an 146 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,880 experience, somebody says something hurtful to us, we 147 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,040 think something hurtful to ourselves. 148 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:55,840 If we can just acknowledge like that's just a thing that 149 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,240 happened, then we might be able to act more intentionally. 150 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,480 We might be able to, let's set that aside and do something more 151 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:04,960 intentional. But typically what we do is we 152 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:09,640 react so strongly and so quickly to these kind of stories that we 153 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,120 tell about ourselves or our, our mental formations that we don't 154 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,920 really have an opportunity to even recognize that something 155 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,200 has happened, right? We have an experience, we react 156 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,800 so quickly that it just it, we, it causes us our suffering. 157 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,080 And this is one of the reasons why one of the things that I 158 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:31,520 find most transformative and powerful about Buddhism is 159 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:35,280 saying that we do have the power within ourselves to avoid our 160 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,080 suffering. We can transform ourselves. 161 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,000 We don't have to suffer as much as we as we do. 162 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,440 The trick is that we have that power because we cause our own 163 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,320 suffering. So it's, it's good to to 164 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,400 recognize that and this is where we can do this, that if we can 165 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,120 think about these kinds of mental formations and how this 166 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,840 is where kind of our ego comes from. 167 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,560 And when we get offended and we get hurt and we get stressed and 168 00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:03,800 we get hiding all of these kind of feelings of suffering, It can 169 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,000 be really helpful to just recognize like this is just a 170 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,320 thought that I'm having. This is just a feeling that I'm 171 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,320 having. It doesn't have to carry the 172 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,560 weight that I'm getting it. You can step back at for it from 173 00:09:14,560 --> 00:09:17,920 a moment and then you can kind of act more intentionally. 174 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,120 But how do you do that? So this is part of the 175 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:22,880 challenge. It's one thing to say like you 176 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,040 can do that. You have the power to do this. 177 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,760 And we could probably all of us identify some experience in our 178 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,400 life that something happened and we didn't have a big, huge 179 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,920 emotional reaction. We just noticed this really big 180 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,320 important heavy thing happened. And I just noticed it and I 181 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,400 responded and kind of like an intentional, skillful way. 182 00:09:42,560 --> 00:09:44,120 We've all had an experience of that. 183 00:09:44,680 --> 00:09:48,640 What we want to do is to have that experience happen more 184 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,720 often to become more skillful. We want to be able to develop 185 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:57,000 within ourselves the ability more skillfully to recognize 186 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,360 like, oh, I'm having a reaction or I have this thought for 187 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,720 pattern, or I'm, I'm feeling this emotion without it 188 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,840 overwhelming us and spinning us into like reactivity. 189 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,840 It is of course, easier said than done, but it's exactly the 190 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,400 reason that we practice. So one of the ways that you can 191 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,880 practice in Zazan is observing exactly all of those mental 192 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,680 formations that come up and not responding to them, which you've 193 00:10:25,680 --> 00:10:28,480 already done, right. So you probably, I mean, did 194 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,880 your, did your legs fall asleep? Did you have an ache or a pain? 195 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,360 Were you feeling sleepy? Did you have any of that? 196 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,000 And you just sat, you just sat through it. 197 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,480 You just observed like, oh, this is a painful thing and you just 198 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,960 sat. That's practice, right? 199 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:47,080 So you are training your body and your mind to experience 200 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,640 whatever that is, whatever that mental formation, the thought 201 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,200 that you had the the emotion that you had, whatever it is, 202 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,520 you're training yourself to experience it, not to react to 203 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,400 it. And then do some if, if you 204 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,560 decide there's something that you need to do right, like maybe 205 00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:04,640 if you, maybe if you were having a pain in your leg or something 206 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,440 and you sat with it and then you realized, like, actually, this 207 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:08,840 is going to cause me distress later. 208 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,680 So I need to adjust. But it was an intentional 209 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,240 adjustment, not just like, oh, I've got to get out. 210 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,280 It's, it's not based on a version and craving it to be 211 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,880 different. So that's part of the way to do 212 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:21,720 this. And, and it can be really 213 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:26,320 helpful if you've spend part of your practice just in observing 214 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,400 like, oh, this is, this is something my mental formation is 215 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,480 arising and I'm just going to sit with it. 216 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,720 Because if you give yourself more practice with that on the 217 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,320 cushion, you can have more practice with it in the world. 218 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,040 If you are in the world, not on the cushion, it's more 219 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,520 difficult, right? Because especially if if you are 220 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,160 in an interaction with another person and there's an 221 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,880 emotionally charged situation or something like that, it's more 222 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,160 difficult, of course, to just say, like, oh, I observe, I'm 223 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,160 having this tremendous emotional reaction and I'm just going to 224 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,040 slow down. It's still possible, but that 225 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:00,840 takes a little bit more practice. 226 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:06,000 So probably it can be helpful to kind of look at your this the 227 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:10,040 past stories that you have about yourself and your past and your 228 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:14,320 experience, which might show you where your future stories are 229 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,960 likely to come from, right? We have a tendency to have a 230 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,280 certain kind of a personal inertia, like the stories that 231 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,960 we told about ourselves tend to influence the stories that we 232 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:24,440 tell about ourselves in the future. 233 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:26,920 In terms of like the end of the interactions with people. 234 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,240 If you have a difficult person in your life, life, you probably 235 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:32,720 when you go to interact with this person, you're like, I'm 236 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,240 going to set myself up because it's going to be a difficult 237 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,120 reaction, right? Like when I put on my armor so 238 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,280 this person doesn't offend me. And typically often just the 239 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,680 process of like, I'm going to be strong about this actually makes 240 00:12:44,680 --> 00:12:46,480 you more vulnerable and more sensitive. 241 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,120 You're priming yourself for the difficult emotion. 242 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,640 You can, on the other hand, say like, OK, I'm going to have a 243 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,920 meeting with this difficult person or I'm going to visit my 244 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,560 family and it's just going to have a difficult scenario. 245 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,200 If you can open yourself up to like, I'm just going to be 246 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,760 aware. It is likely that I'm going to 247 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,280 be telling myself stories. It's likely that certain 248 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,960 emotions are going to come up so that when they come up, it's 249 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:10,920 less of a surprise. And you can. 250 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,160 It gives yourself maybe an opportunity to pause, take a 251 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,720 breath, and then figure out how to engage more intentionally. 252 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:22,120 If you do that kind of thing often enough, you will get more 253 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,800 skillful at it. It's not necessarily a linear 254 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:26,640 relationship. It's not like if you do it 10 255 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,960 times a day, you're going to be 10 times better about it because 256 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,160 that's just not how human bodies and minds work, right? 257 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:37,160 But if you regularly practice this idea of observing when you 258 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,720 are creating a mental formation, when you're telling a story 259 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,120 about yourself, about an experience, about somebody else, 260 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,960 if you can recognize that you are constructing that mental 261 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:52,600 formation, it gives you an opportunity to not to, to not 262 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,520 create that story or to at least recognize what is the possible 263 00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,880 consequence of creating that kind of a story. 264 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:02,480 How, how is it likely to influence your kind of 265 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,320 reactivity and, and that sort of thing. 266 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,480 So I'm going to leave it with that and I'm going to turn it 267 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:09,960 over to you. And I'm happy to hear if you 268 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,080 want to talk about any of the other aggregates. 269 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,640 You're welcome to. Maybe you're not as obsessed 270 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,880 with Sankar as as as I am, but you are. 271 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:20,960 You're welcome to to talk about the mental formations or 272 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,680 anything else. So I'll turn it over to you. 273 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,440 And when you speak, please start with your name so we can get to 274 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:28,960 know you a little bit better. This time is yours. 275 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:34,640 I'm Megan, so dig hearts. I think they're far. 276 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:40,040 I came under fire from me with my experiences around 277 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,520 association and depersonalization. 278 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:47,760 So basically with these, you're you're just not attached to your 279 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,200 mind, you know, so you're not thinking. 280 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,680 And then it's like, then what am I? 281 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:59,040 And that's why depersonalization is often often has existential 282 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:03,120 thoughts that come with it like these weird existential thoughts 283 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:07,560 like is this real? And then yeah, it's it's 284 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,880 strange. So really challenges the notion 285 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:15,160 and also that phrases from Cartesian duality, which is kind 286 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,240 of what Buddhism doesn't do. Yeah, exactly right. 287 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,000 So Buddhism is much more about like the connection between your 288 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,520 body and your inner mind is one of the things that you see with 289 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,520 these five elements is that part of it is in your physical body, 290 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,320 part of it's in your mind, part is in your like emotional 291 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,040 reactivity because it's all connected. 292 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,280 And then it's all further in Buddhism. 293 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,240 And that's just typically not true in terms of Western 294 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,040 thought. Western thought tries to 295 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,320 disassociate. Like the body is all the yucky 296 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,160 messy stuff. Like let's just try to ignore 297 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,760 all of that and let's like live the life of the mind. 298 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,720 And if you can just think, you know, rational thoughts, then 299 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,440 everything is going to be fine. And this is exactly 1 of the 300 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,200 reasons. This is probably why I focus on 301 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,680 the mental formation so much, because that's been my whole 302 00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:59,560 life. Living in a Western culture has 303 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,800 told me if you just read enough books, if you understand the 304 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:05,720 concepts well enough, you won't suffer. 305 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,360 Like, you can read the book and it gives you the answer and then 306 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,800 you're going to be fine. It it took me learning like, 307 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,680 yeah, but especially for me, that's got to settle into my 308 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,080 body. My body has to understand and my 309 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:20,440 body doesn't read. So this is exactly the same 310 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,320 thing like that. The connection between the body 311 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,760 and the mind. Yeah, it's incredibly powerful. 312 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,040 It's like disrupted when you have dissociation and 313 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,960 depersonalization. And I, I read an article that 314 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,800 called it enlightenment, evil twin dissociation, the 315 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:37,360 personalization. Personalization. 316 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:38,720 Yeah. It's it's really rough. 317 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:40,280 Yeah. I hope no one has to go through 318 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,640 that. Did you, are you through it? 319 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,280 Is it something that you experience regularly or is it 320 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,120 like? I see myself in parts, so I have 321 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,080 a part that that has that response. 322 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:52,440 It's actually a defense mechanism. 323 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,560 It doesn't actually have to be disorder unless it goes on a 324 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,800 prolonged amount of time. So it's something that NAMI 325 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:07,760 National Association of Mental Illness, I think yeah, says 75% 326 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,119 of people have an episode of depersonalization in their 327 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,440 lives. So it's not uncommon at all. 328 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,640 You can even have it if you have burnout for example. 329 00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:22,319 So most people equate it to doing drugs and it can come from 330 00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:25,520 CPTSC as well. Which makes a lot of sense, 331 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:27,480 yeah. I mean, in terms of like the 332 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,520 kind of trauma responses we tend to have, it makes sense. 333 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,280 That kind of a deep personalization or not unhooking 334 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,520 of the kind of connections that are going on in our body would 335 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,720 make a lot of sense. And it's one of the reasons that 336 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,240 I really appreciate that Buddhism is like, like, yeah, it 337 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,920 all matters. But as we said previously, like 338 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,800 it all matters. The way that you're oriented may 339 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,240 matter in a different way than the way that I'm oriented, 340 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:51,760 right? So we talked about this like 341 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,200 this kind of a spectrum of all of these things. 342 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,440 And if you, we usually talk about this in terms of 343 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,800 compassion, right? So if you are really good at 344 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,560 being compassionate to other people, but you're really mean 345 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,480 to yourself, well then probably where you need to work is being 346 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,240 more compassionate to yourself, not double down on being 347 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,320 compassionate to other people. Likewise, if you're really good 348 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:12,840 at being compassionate to yourself, but you're really mean 349 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,720 to other people, well, then you need to work on being kinder to 350 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:17,600 other people. So it's the same sort of thing, 351 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,360 like figuring out, I mean, this is what I appreciate. 352 00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:23,800 It's not saying like don't have mental formations. 353 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:25,040 It's like it's part of being human. 354 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:26,640 You're going to have mental formations. 355 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,520 Be aware of the mental formations, but you don't have 356 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:33,240 to lean into them. And you can identify the, the 357 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,760 harmful consequences of the mental formations. 358 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,440 So don't, don't try to them, Although, I mean, one of the 359 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:44,440 interesting arguments is that if you practice like resisting 360 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:50,080 forming a mental formation, you may not form as many as you 361 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:52,880 moving forward, right? So you may get more skillful at 362 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,040 just not being so reactive moving forward. 363 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,200 So but that but that shouldn't be the goal. 364 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,480 The goal isn't like, I'm going to, you know, the the 365 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,440 stereotypical Buddhist thing, like, oh, empty your mind, Like, 366 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,760 Oh no, he can't do that. Like mines don't work that way. 367 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,400 Oh, yeah. Oh, have you read Eckhart Toll? 368 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:11,800 Yes. OK. 369 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,840 He he had an experience with something that was like 370 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,360 depersonalization where he claimed he sat on a park bench 371 00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:21,480 with a like blissed out for two years or something. 372 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,640 Have you heard that? No, I'm like, I'm. 373 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:26,400 He made it into a pleasant experience. 374 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,960 So probably wasn't depersonalization, but he said 375 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,440 it arose from like, like this thought he had or something. 376 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,720 And then just blink. There was kind of somebody in 377 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,520 joining. His awakening experience send 378 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,240 him to like live in in the now, the power of now, live in the 379 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,760 present moment and the way that looked for him was just like 380 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,320 being able to sit in the park and be blessed that. 381 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,480 I make this feel pretty blissful, especially if you're 382 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:01,600 in a lot of pain I guess. I think he also claims to that 383 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:07,480 and I say claim not in a, you know, to disqualify that, that 384 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,600 leading up to all of this was, you know, a lot of depression, a 385 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,280 lot of it, you know, all the the really hard stuff. 386 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:19,520 And then a moment I was overwhelmed and then kind of 387 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,800 losing himself in this one particular moment. 388 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,800 And then from then on, kind of many of these moments were 389 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,400 available to him. And so kind of interesting, you 390 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:35,720 know, it's kind of it's kind of roams with enlightenment 391 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,800 sometimes kind of kind of thought process or, or, or being 392 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,800 aware in the moment, you know, that thing. 393 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:49,920 Interesting, funny character. Hi Stacey. 394 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:56,480 The the aggregate that always that I'm always most associated 395 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,720 with is again in the Sankari. But for me it's more in the 396 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,920 emotion like a more of a spieler person than a theatre person. 397 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,880 I think as far as I just feel a lot. 398 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,920 And that's the thing that I tend to identify with. 399 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:17,880 Like if I get a strong emotion, it's that's my challenge is 400 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:23,000 seeing that, being with that and not identifying with it like so 401 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:29,040 much that that is who I am, you know, and that's I'm very like 402 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:34,360 long practice of just letting the emotions like come through, 403 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:37,480 not reacting to them and not like clinging and identifying. 404 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:42,880 And yeah, this is, but I am not necessarily a like I just said 405 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,080 that I'm an abortion person, right? 406 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:49,480 I that's kind of how I tend to identify myself. 407 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:54,400 And it's just interesting thing and all the I've read a lot 408 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,160 about Buddhism and lots of practices and they can all the 409 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:04,400 things that I read tend to really kind of emphasize, I 410 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,640 think a lot about the mind, not so much about the feelings. 411 00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:13,600 So that's just a little side note. 412 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:17,880 Yeah, I mean, we do talk about that in this in the group, you 413 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,360 know, kind of like where where your strengths are in your like 414 00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:23,240 feelings or in your kind of mind. 415 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,760 And it's my bias just as my, my, like my training is like all 416 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,320 about, about the mind. Like I have, it's been through 417 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,440 Buddhism where I'm like, OK, so feelings you can't just like 418 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,680 turn them off, which is what that's what actually brought me 419 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,240 here. Like I was dead to most of my 420 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,240 emotions because I was like the way through is to not feel 421 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,280 anything. And I was like, oh, Buddhism, 422 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:42,960 they tell you not to feel anything. 423 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,640 That's my jam until I got in and they were like, no, you're 424 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,400 supposed to feel all the things in a respectful amount. 425 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,680 And so it took me like years and years to be like, you mean I got 426 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,920 to feel the thing. I don't want to feel the thing. 427 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,760 The thing is shocking, but it's been, it's been a like, that's 428 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,240 where my practice has been like allowing. 429 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,760 It's a lot of allowing. Like here is a feeling. 430 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,120 And of course I meant immediately have a story like 431 00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:07,400 that's a bad thing. Don't have that feeling. 432 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,000 You shouldn't have that feeling. And it's taken me a long time to 433 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,880 be like, but you have the feeling. 434 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,120 So just just have the feeling, but you know, give it the I, 435 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,480 what I say is give it the respect it deserves and no more. 436 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,480 Because that's where it would be either like my, I would not give 437 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,600 it any respect, try to starve it, which doesn't work right 438 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,000 because it comes back later stronger, or I would just give 439 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,080 it like all of the attention and let it consume everything, 440 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,120 right? So like, trying to learn how to 441 00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:40,400 just be a regular human that has feelings without like, just 442 00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:43,640 feeling like I'm, you know, a walking nerve end or something 443 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,080 like that, right. So yeah, that's part of the 444 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,240 practice too. This also brought me to business 445 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,760 with the opposite was I was just feeling so much and I was like 446 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,240 this is just a walking around involved suffering this feeling 447 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,200 so much and see if I can like figure out a way to live with 448 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,040 that and a still work. And and have you do that so 449 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:06,480 that's part of your. Goal 'cause I'm eating. 450 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,960 Ups and downs, exactly. There have been definite times 451 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,520 in my life where I've practiced a lot and I have felt, you know, 452 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,200 equanimity and I have felt where actually seeing that, you know, 453 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,760 especially after retreats. So those kinds of things where 454 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,440 something will happen that I would have had emotional 455 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,920 response that would really throw me off where I just did. 456 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,000 It just didn't happen. It wasn't surprised. 457 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,760 It wasn't like I was pushing it down. 458 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,080 It's just didn't happen. Yeah. 459 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,280 Yeah, it's kind of fascinating to see that like I responded all 460 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,520 of these ways before and I was like, right, it's great. 461 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,240 And then you're wondering, like, who am I? 462 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,320 But it does seem like I'm just, for me, it's practice. 463 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,760 Like it has to be a consistent kind of thing. 464 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,520 Like I'll fall off and Bruce why I didn't like I practice for a 465 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:57,280 while and then I'm like. You know, I mean, we talked 466 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,920 about that kind of thing a lot because that's, that's what we 467 00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:01,880 are going for. It's just like, it's not about 468 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,080 like it's not effort about suppressing a thought or a 469 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,840 feeling or whatever. It's just you are becoming more 470 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,800 skillful in that thought, feeling, whatever it is that 471 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,920 doesn't arise. And one of the things we see 472 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,880 this a lot in this group because we often get a lot of like, like 473 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,200 newcomers because they and they come because they're in 474 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,000 distress. Typically like this is the way 475 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,680 that that people, for whatever reason, people find this group 476 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,600 because like they're in distress and they, their therapist just 477 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,320 told them that meditation and Buddhism would help or, you 478 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,280 know, they, they found it online or something like that. 479 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,680 So they typically come because they're in distress and then 480 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,640 they start to feel better and they're like, good, checked it 481 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,480 out the list. And those kind of like emotional 482 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,200 reactions or the thoughts, the obsessive thoughts or whatever 483 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,840 don't arise as much And they're like, great, I'm all better now. 484 00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:48,720 And then they don't come back anymore. 485 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:50,160 And then they come back another year later. 486 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,280 They're like, well, that turns out didn't stick. 487 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,240 I was like, yeah, I know because it's a practice. 488 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,320 It's not about like, it's not like it's going to stick. 489 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,760 It's not permanent in that sense because nothing is permanent. 490 00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:02,840 But the practice helps you keep doing the practice over and 491 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,560 over. It means that it's just going to 492 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,120 be less likely to come up again or as strong again. 493 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,440 But it's always going to come up again because that's just, you 494 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,200 know, part of what it is. But not as overwhelmingly strong 495 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,720 or frequent. I have a time where I too 496 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,200 thought that, you know, it, it was about not feeling anything, 497 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,560 you know, being calm and equanimous. 498 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,680 And actually that's a form of spirit of by fasting. 499 00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:28,000 So. Yeah, isn't. 500 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:29,880 Yeah. So Buddhism is a but the 501 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:35,040 equanimity is about just being there with my feelings, not like 502 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:39,160 saying, oh, I have to be enlightened and I have no 503 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,560 feelings. I have no hate and anger. 504 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:43,840 Yeah. That's, I mean, that's what I 505 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,520 thought too. That's what I was most attracted 506 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,040 to booties. And I was like, oh, you'll never 507 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,240 feel anger again. You'll never feel pain. 508 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,480 You'll never feel suffering. Yes, sign me up immediately. 509 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,000 And this was actually, I've, I've told this story too, like 510 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,280 when I first started practicing, this is how it worked for me. 511 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,200 I came here same like with everybody else. 512 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,680 I was suffering and I was like, I wanted to stop suffering and 513 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,600 I, I stopped suffering. And then I kept practicing. 514 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,840 I kept practicing and I started like getting training in the 515 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,240 order. And at one point, like I started 516 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,280 feeling all the feelings, like even more than I did before. 517 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,800 And I called my teacher. I was like, OK, I'm doing 518 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,080 something wrong because like, I've suffering like a lot. 519 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,960 There's a lot of pain happening. And I thought I was supposed to. 520 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,000 And she just laughed. She was like, yeah, yeah, this 521 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,440 is what happened. Is it's kind of one of those 522 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,600 things like you turn off, you try to suppress everything, then 523 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:32,280 you open the door. There is a little bit of 524 00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:37,280 Christopher Neff from the Mindful Self Compassion group 525 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,600 talks about this is like backdraft, you know, and I like 526 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,680 a fire where you like there's a fire and you shut the door and 527 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,280 you're like, it's like, oh, I'm going to just starve it. 528 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:45,800 But it's like getting power and power. 529 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,280 You open the door and it's like kind of fire. 530 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,040 This is like the emotions, like you shove them down, you shove 531 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,040 them down. Once you start opening that 532 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,040 door, you're like, OK, it's being healthy to emotions in the 533 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,240 emotions are like, I have oxygen now. 534 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,480 They like blow up everywhere. So it is part of the practice. 535 00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:05,960 And and this is where that's when for me, that was really the 536 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,400 hard part of like the Buddhist practice happened because I was 537 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,800 like, like, I can't just pretend like I don't have feelings. 538 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,240 I have to just acknowledge that I have feelings. 539 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:16,920 And that is the way through, right. 540 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,040 Like I thought I could starve the feelings and then they would 541 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,080 go away. And I learned that wasn't true. 542 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,720 And what I have learned is that you have to have the feelings 543 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,400 because they're just because they're there. 544 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,240 That's part of being human. But you can have them in an 545 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:33,720 appropriate, skillful way and not overwhelming way. 546 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:40,880 And yeah. James, I was thinking about how 547 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:47,680 when you were talking, I was kind of thinking like that that 548 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:55,360 person at work or that situation or and you know, for me, I talk 549 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,720 a lot about stopping recognition, right? 550 00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,640 That it's happening because when you were at the point where you 551 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,600 didn't recognize something was happening, you were just, you 552 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:09,480 know, flowing wherever the river took took you, you know, and 553 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,280 didn't always feel comfortable if you had a lot of these this 554 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,120 automatic negative thoughts or your condition, you know, 555 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:22,360 habitual thinking and just the recognition that that's 556 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:27,720 happening is giving me a lot of relief and work to do right at 557 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,480 the same time, right? The relief is that oh, that 558 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,560 that's not who I am. It's part of who I am, but you 559 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,000 know, I don't have to respond to it. 560 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:38,800 And so there's there's work there. 561 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,120 The other part of that that's interesting to me is then 562 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:48,840 finding that other perspective. Say you did a talk at work, 563 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,800 right? And it didn't go as well as you 564 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,920 wanted it to go. And there's all there's the 565 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,440 negative, you know, thoughts and some of that part. 566 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,120 But then while working with just that, there's also the others 567 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:07,720 aspect of and I hate to get into certain concepts like resiliency 568 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:12,000 and you know, the next buzz topic, but like finding the 569 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,840 growth in it. So like how how to find, you 570 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,040 know, there's a line somewhere where you cross and it's a 571 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,960 different perspective and a different way, at least for me, 572 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,600 a different practicing a different muscle. 573 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,000 So I don't know, that's just some bouts that I was having 574 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,600 while you were talking, but you know, kind of kind of two 575 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,880 different parts of the same process. 576 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:33,920 Does that make any sense? Hell. 577 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,440 But that's a good reminder because there are there's 578 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,160 certainly some situations where going into it, you know, there's 579 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,480 going to be some challenges coming up or you're or you are 580 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,200 afraid there. This is again, part of the 581 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,680 stories that we tell ourselves like, oh, this is going to be 582 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,080 bad. It's going to be a bad 583 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,600 situation. And it can be helpful just to 584 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,840 recognize like, oh, I'm telling myself a story about what this 585 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,480 interaction is going to be like. And maybe it is going to be like 586 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,640 that, but maybe it's not. And why don't you, we just let 587 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,200 the interaction be what it is. If you have to do the thing for 588 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,480 work, you have to do the thing for work, maybe let's not make 589 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,720 it harder than it has to be. And then when it happens, 590 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,960 whatever happens, because you're probably nervous about it for a 591 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:17,640 reason, something might happen. And the debrief process can be 592 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,440 less about mental formations and emotions and storytelling. 593 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,680 It can just be like, oh, this is what I observed without putting 594 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,800 a lot of weight on it. That's where we're trying to get 595 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,760 to anyway, right? One of the one thought that 596 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,160 occurred to me when you were talking about, you know, like 597 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,000 reacting to to keep all up and you're happy, like an 598 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:45,360 interpersonal thing is like I came very attached just to being 599 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,320 a Buddhist, right? Like myself of being a Buddhist. 600 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:54,040 And then through that, I was like, well, I have to react like 601 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,240 a Buddhist. And what I've noticed just 602 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:02,560 throughout my life is like, that's a a problem too. 603 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,600 Because you can then fall into situations where you just let 604 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,880 yourself be abused really, because you're like, oh, well, 605 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,840 this person's verbally abusing me or emotionally abusing me, 606 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,240 but I'm a Buddhist. I'm not going to react to and 607 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:22,000 it's OK because I'm just going to be fine with whatever. 608 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,760 And that's like, I think something that happens to people 609 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:34,000 and it's not really necessarily a lot, but, and I've experienced 610 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,920 that where you get attached to even the good things that are 611 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,520 kind of, you know. Yeah. 612 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,400 I mean, I talk about that a lot as like using Buddhism as a 613 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,040 weapon usually against yourself kind of thing. 614 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,720 And there are, there are there are people in Buddhism that talk 615 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,320 about just that in terms of like unskillful compassion or 616 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,880 boundary boundary very list at compassion. 617 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,640 And and really the idea is, is exactly this. 618 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,480 Like we can learn all of these things. 619 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,560 We can learn all of these patterns that we can say, OK, 620 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,120 yeah, that makes sense, right? Like I, I'm, I'm telling all 621 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:08,960 these stories, I'm having these emotions. 622 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,520 It's not helpful or whatever. So I'm not going to do that 623 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,960 anymore. And I'm just going to allow all 624 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:15,520 of this, I can see all this bad behavior. 625 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:16,800 This person is doing a bad thing. 626 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,280 That person is doing bad thing. But I'm going to be a Buddhist 627 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:20,640 and I'm not going to say anything. 628 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,560 Instead of like what they're saying is like, you still have 629 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,040 to be part of the world and it is still compassionate. 630 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,160 It is still, you know, an appropriate response to say like 631 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,440 this pattern of behavior that you're engaging in is harmful. 632 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,120 The trick is how to say that in a compassionate way and that 633 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:38,120 that's what we're trying to learn. 634 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,840 Like it's not compassion isn't just about like, oh, I see that 635 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,400 I'm telling a story or you're telling a story and oh, 636 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:45,680 everybody just has their stories. 637 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,760 You know, I'm OK, you're OK Everything's fine. 638 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:52,040 The, the, the idea is like, oh, did, can you observe like the 639 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,160 story that you're telling or the story that I'm telling is 640 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,400 causing this harm or that harm and saying that having that kind 641 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,760 of difficult conversation is difficult anyway, But often 642 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,760 that's what's doing kind of the greater good. 643 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:08,080 That's what's more compassionate And the idea if we can let go, 644 00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:10,400 because even though, like I'm a Buddhist and I'm going to do it 645 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,600 the right way, that's an ego thing, right? 646 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,600 Like, I mean, I, we talked about this sometimes like competitive 647 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,400 Buddhism and I'm just like, I don't think you understand the 648 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,440 Buddhist part of this is like, but it's like, I'm AI can 649 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,320 meditate longer and I'm, I'm a better Buddhist and I know more. 650 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,199 And I was like, like, well, that's congratulations. 651 00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:29,199 That's a fantastic thing because Buddhism is not a competition. 652 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:34,159 And so it is, it's in this ego realm that that that kind of 653 00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:36,400 lives and it comes from a good place. 654 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,239 So many of our stories and our feelings, all these kinds of 655 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,880 mental formations, they come from a good place often, not 656 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,800 always, but often. But we don't always recognize 657 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,560 that just because it came from a good place, it doesn't mean that 658 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,239 it's a good thing to perpetuate or keep going or that it's a 659 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,120 good thing in all other circumstances, right? 660 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,280 The other thing that we focus on is like social context really 661 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,600 matters. So that thing that you did that 662 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,040 was really useful and good and helpful over here, now that 663 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,760 you're over here is not the skillful response. 664 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,640 So you have to actually pay attention to, to what's 665 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,920 happening. So I know it's, I'm glad that we 666 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,480 call it a practice because it's a reminder. 667 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,960 I think that like you're going to have to, you're going to make 668 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,680 mistakes and you're going to try to get better over and over and 669 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,760 you just got to keep doing it. I'm glad you said the word 670 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,400 helpful. Is it helpful just because we 671 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,160 walk in a door, we step into the Buddhist room, like, guess what, 672 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,520 we're still there, right? The shit that we had on the 673 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,480 other side of the door came in with us. 674 00:35:35,720 --> 00:35:39,520 So for for better and worse, it's not a it's not a bad thing. 675 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,120 It just doesn't disappear when we step down this path. 676 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,280 So. I'm I'm glad you brought up a 677 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,560 thing about abuse when it comes to do because I've speed at a 678 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,360 lot and it's really hard to see people talking about this 679 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:57,040 basically push pushing the boundary was banned boundaries 680 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,800 as Buddhism and endless toleration and unconditional 681 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,120 love when mean if you're not receiving it back then why are 682 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:12,400 you still giving like coloration doesn't mean that you need to 683 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,040 accept abuse. And I think that's what a lot of 684 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:17,960 people miss. They, they want to have 685 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,320 compassion for all living beings. 686 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,040 And that includes abuse of people. 687 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,440 And we can have compassion for them and we don't need to take 688 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,920 that on. You can't have compassion for 689 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:31,800 abusive people. That doesn't mean that you can. 690 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,120 You have to justify their abuse, right? 691 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:35,480 And that's what we're trying to learn. 692 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,880 How can you be compassionate to the people that are causing us 693 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,320 pain that are that? And we all do. 694 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,560 I mean, it's probably why most of us are here, right? 695 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:45,880 That there are people, places and things in our life that are 696 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,560 causing us pain and we want to react to all of that with 697 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:50,280 compassion. But that doesn't mean to say 698 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,320 like, I guess now I just have to put up with it. 699 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,200 I just have to like tolerate it and try to like not react. 700 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,520 I mean, I'm having it. I mean an abusive situation. 701 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,640 Just don't react, don't react, don't react when part of it is 702 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,800 like, but the other part is actually, this is an unhealthy 703 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,080 situation. This isn't on, this is a harmful 704 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,400 thing and I need to do something about that. 705 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,680 And that's another facet of this and it's difficult. 706 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,600 Sounds of wisdom, Compassion. Passion. 707 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:25,360 Important part though, right? Because you know, if, if we, if 708 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,720 we're not looking upon ourselves and others with that compassion, 709 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,320 all of a sudden they can push the balance into the other side, 710 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:37,560 into aversion, poisoning ourselves with, with hate and 711 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,760 anger, trying to, you know, look at this more of a power struggle 712 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,440 instead of somebody's own challenges, right? 713 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,760 So I think the compassion and even though I totally agree with 714 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,920 what we're saying, right, is it appropriate, you know, to let 715 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:56,360 somebody, of course not, you know, and also if we are judging 716 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,120 them and saying that they're bad, that's not, that's not 717 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,040 helping us either, right? So the compassion is still still 718 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,720 really important for ourselves and for them, for our own peace. 719 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,000 Megan, last week you said like, well, is Buddha nature? 720 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,200 Is that really the, the self? And it kind of relates to this 721 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,040 because I, so I said I'm going to look into that. 722 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,720 And what I said last week was like, no, I don't think it is. 723 00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:20,800 It didn't feel like that's that's what they're saying the 724 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:22,600 self is. And it kind of depends on what 725 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,680 you mean, of course, right? Isn't that always the Buddhist 726 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:25,880 answer? It depends. 727 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:30,280 Yes, no, but usually maybe. So it depends on what you mean. 728 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,240 So the idea, I mean, So what is the self, right. 729 00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:34,600 So we have this, all of these five aggregates. 730 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,200 OK. So the self is not your form 731 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,120 that decays and changes. The self is not these mental 732 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,320 formations. They change like all this. 733 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,040 So that's not the self. So then what is the self? 734 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,080 And I think if what you mean by like, so is Buddha nature, the 735 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:52,440 self, if what you're saying is that like the, the potential. 736 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,360 So generally Buddha nature is like that you have the potential 737 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,600 to have this kind of clear thinking, to be compassionate, 738 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,080 to have wisdom, like you have the capacity in yourself to do 739 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:04,840 that. And that is sort of what they're 740 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,680 saying. Like in Buddhism, what is the 741 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:10,880 self is the, is the, is your ability and, and the trained 742 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,400 mind. So that to become more 743 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:18,560 skillfully compassionate, to have more wisdom, to have a 744 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:23,120 calmer mind that like those are that's the self, your calm mind, 745 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:27,120 your compassionate mind, your self, you know, those kinds of 746 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:28,600 things. It's developing those sort of 747 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,080 skills. So in that way, like kind of 748 00:39:31,240 --> 00:39:34,480 right, that, that part of it is that we have the potential, we 749 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:39,720 have the power to train our minds and our bodies to calm our 750 00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:43,840 minds to, to think more spontaneously, compassionately, 751 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,480 to feel in a more balanced way. Like though we have the the 752 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,080 potential for that. When we do those things, that's 753 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:57,120 our self, like when we are acting, thinking, believing, you 754 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,640 know, processing in a way that is skillfully compassionate and 755 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:06,400 balanced and equanimous and. Full of wisdom, that's ourself. 756 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,400 So I think probably you would say yes, I'm still going with 757 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,080 maybe because I can't stop with the Buddhism, but I think it's 758 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,160 probably, I'm guessing that's what you're thinking. 759 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,040 Like that's what that is. Yeah, maybe. 760 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,480 Yeah. I've always heard it's, it's the 761 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,000 Buddhist teaching was that there is no self. 762 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,080 But people like to say like, that's hard, right? 763 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,320 A hard thing for like our rusted mind to grasp because we've like 764 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,680 all been like raised in this kind of society where like we 765 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,960 have a soul and there is like this theme and inherently ours. 766 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,680 And so it's very hard for us to like hear all of that concept. 767 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,560 So it's what the way I've always understood it is like there's 768 00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:53,040 there is no, there's no self that's solid, right? 769 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,760 That like, there's nothing there that's like unchanging. 770 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,160 Yeah, even even like the the thinking, even if you do have 771 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,240 this kind of balanced mind and you're kind of balanced body and 772 00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:08,640 all that sort of stuff, that's going to change because the next 773 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,760 moment something will happen that's going to kind of throw 774 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,520 that off. And and so this is one of the 775 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:14,360 reasons why I'm saying like, well, when maybe it is about 776 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,880 this idea of Buddhist Buddha nature, because that is an 777 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,600 active process. Like you have to continually 778 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,080 practice to to kind of calm your mind. 779 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,320 You have to continually practice to cultivate wisdom. 780 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,440 And so like, if the belief though, if what you're saying is 781 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,120 like, Oh yeah, but no, I did it because I read the books and I 782 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,480 meditated. So check, I am now enlightened, 783 00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:37,600 right? So, and that's, that's the same 784 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,520 sort of belief, like I that I, there's something I can do and 785 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,920 then I'm done. And then I'm the good version of 786 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,520 myself and I'm done with the bad version of myself. 787 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,040 And instead of what they're saying like this, always a 788 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,320 process. I say how you little boy go 789 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:57,320 popped up. No structure is built to 790 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,600 withstand. If it's a set structure, I 791 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,160 definitionally cannot stand, it's going to topple because 792 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,000 it's an aesthetic world. So when we're selling these 793 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,280 things as structures, this is our self. 794 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:17,320 I hear that as biz and biz and I'm jumping analogies like I 795 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:22,160 always do, but I think a bot stuff that's a big puzzle that 796 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,960 they own PC puzzle out. That's not puzzle. 797 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:29,840 Like here's what puzzle, but that's not it is a it's a peace 798 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:36,360 puzzle. So even like Descartes running 799 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,920 the elementary school there and there's about a few subjects 800 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:46,440 that pay attention to. He was right, he wasn't wrong. 801 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:53,520 It is as if we're thinking if we're lost, we went so far to 802 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,760 not duality. We're sending the FARC 803 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,800 everything this is request out inflated, disconnected or 804 00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:04,040 whatever way that looks. If we can think of welcome here. 805 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,360 I feel lots what is said that thoughts there's shortest 806 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,200 connection. Wow, I'm not just that, but 807 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,760 Muslim not knock it. I think that's where we are. 808 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,280 It's fond like maybes the this is this, isn't it? 809 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:24,640 Wow, So no, I think about that a lot like if we let the building 810 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,280 go for a week, it's the immediate start to crumble. 811 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,880 It's gossip being maintained. It's still exists, but it's not 812 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:38,880 sick. They also dear this makes a no 813 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,800 he's. I'm, I'm Jared. 814 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:50,160 I feel like that that kind of idea of like how to reconcile 815 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,960 Windows cell and the Buddha nature kind of that really that 816 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:58,400 that that feels right to me. A lot of the there's a lot of 817 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,720 like Jewish, like non orthodox and non Christian Orthodox. 818 00:44:04,720 --> 00:44:10,320 The a lot of the Mystics think about kind of like how to how to 819 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,760 be how to be in your like most holy state, kind of similar, a 820 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,520 similar factory course, you know, being pragmatic. 821 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,520 We just real. We are considering that the 822 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,960 actor like having the same life, but they the thing about it is 823 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,600 like a process of of be all you just say, I think. 824 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,000 You know. You don't reach an enlightened 825 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:32,760 state. It's often it's a continual 826 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:34,720 process. It's a process of being 827 00:44:34,720 --> 00:44:38,240 lightning, not RIP a sheeting night. 828 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,800 You gotta check them where you're at and. 829 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:43,960 Right, Yeah. I mean, this is we talk about 830 00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,320 enlightenment as a verb and and not a noun. 831 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:47,480 And I think that's really useful. 832 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,600 It's the same sort of idea that it's really dynamic and, and I 833 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:55,360 think, you know, sometimes talking this way can seem kind 834 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,880 of nihilistic, right? Like like, oh, there's no form, 835 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,200 there's no body, there's no self, there's no, there's no 836 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,280 point kind of thing. And I think what we're saying is 837 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,600 like, it is, you are still here. This is a moment that is 838 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:09,040 happening that you need to engage with in a inappropriate 839 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:10,760 way. And because of that, because 840 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,000 there isn't a moment that is happening now, it feels like 841 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,600 it's very fixed. It feels like it's very 842 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,720 tangible. And our challenge is to 843 00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:22,360 recognize that this is a moment we are having an experience and 844 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:23,960 I can feel the experience happening. 845 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,920 And that's true. And now that moment's gone. 846 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:31,680 And now there's a new moment. So how do we sit with this 847 00:45:31,720 --> 00:45:36,280 feeling of solidity and this feeling of like weight and sense 848 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:40,240 of self and all of that stuff and also recognize that even 849 00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:43,360 though we feel this kind of solidity, it's still very 850 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,960 dynamic. That's the idea of like, that's, 851 00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:47,800 that's what we're learning to live with. 852 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:49,680 Can we just continue to roll with it? 853 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,080 And that's what we're trying to get more skillful at. 854 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,280 Like can we like be enlightening? 855 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:59,280 Can we just keep rolling with it and recognize that part of what 856 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:04,520 it means to be enlightened and to be enlightening is that 857 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,160 you're going to recognize that this is, it's all still moving. 858 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,080 But I can recognize like the I like we are talking to each 859 00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:11,120 other. That is the thing that's 860 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,360 happening. And now things are changing and 861 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:15,520 now I have to adapt to this sort of a change. 862 00:46:15,720 --> 00:46:19,760 So how can we get some sort of a feeling, a solid grounding 863 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:24,240 without believing that that's now like now we're planted and 864 00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:27,600 now this is this is what's real as opposed to something else. 865 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,840 Like it is just it's really trying to find that that kind of 866 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:32,920 a balance and it can be sort of tricky. 867 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:37,080 So I often tell people is like just to explore the places that 868 00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:41,840 are difficult for you, because it may be that that's what you 869 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,480 kind of need to lean into is that difficult part. 870 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,080 But if what you find yourself is getting completely overwhelmed 871 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,800 and unbalanced because you're leaning into the difficult part, 872 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,000 then come back to a place that feels like it's solid and real 873 00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,560 and, and keep practicing and you'll recognize like, OK, I 874 00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,880 needed to tell myself a story that this was solid and real 875 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,280 because I was way off base. Now I'm like, OK, now I've got 876 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,760 my footing. Now I can go back into that kind 877 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,880 of difficult thing. If we can keep doing that sort 878 00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,760 of a process, we can get more skillful at just recognizing it 879 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,680 is all dynamic. It's moving and I still have a 880 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,080 there's it's a meaningful place for me to be right out, even 881 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,560 though it's being dynamic. So we'll just leave you with 882 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:28,720 that since you all spoke no homework today, but nonetheless, 883 00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:31,600 I mean except for continue practicing like continue to 884 00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,120 become enlightened this. Is your practice always? 885 00:47:35,240 --> 00:47:38,760 So we'll close, and when we close we like to say may the 886 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:44,000 fruit of our practice extend to all living beings, Baha.