1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:04,080 Hello, hello, hello and welcome to this week's episode of the 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:08,080 Thinking Global podcast by E International Relations, the 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,960 world's leading Open Access website for students and 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,320 scholars of international relations. 5 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,760 My name is Kieran O'meara and I'm going to be your host. 6 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,920 But this week your episode really is going to be brought to 7 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:25,440 you by Mariana Caracolaki, the Co editor in Chief and Managing 8 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,480 Editor of EIR. Now this week, as part of her 9 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:35,400 ongoing Thinking Borders series, Marianna is interviewing Nando 10 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,480 Segona from the University of Birmingham. 11 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,200 Now before that, however, don't forget to click on that little 12 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,760 like share, subscribe or follow button. 13 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,240 That way you'll be able to get all the content that Thinking 14 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:53,040 Global has to offer. Bing straight to your device. 15 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:55,880 Do you know that's my favourite bit of recording Each week is 16 00:00:55,880 --> 00:01:01,720 where I get to go Bing now. Also, don't forget that 17 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,519 International Relations has permanently moved to 18 00:01:04,519 --> 00:01:11,320 substack@ehyphenir.org. 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So yeah, go check it out. 29 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:56,040 OK, that's enough from me and I will pass you over to Marianna. 30 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,240 Hi everyone, I am Mariana Caraculaki and this is Thinking 31 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,720 Borders, a podcast series, part of the Thinking Global podcast 32 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:09,680 by International Relations. Before this episode starts, I 33 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,760 would like to share a mega update regarding EIR, our 34 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,640 biggest update since we went live almost 20 years ago, 17 35 00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:21,320 years precisely. We have a new website and a new 36 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,160 URL. You can now find us on Sub Stack 37 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:29,280 on e-ir.org. Our content will always remain 38 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,400 free and Open Access, but if you want to support our work, 39 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,440 consider becoming a paid subscriber. 40 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:41,600 Everyone at EIR is a volunteer, including myself, but if you 41 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,560 become a paid subscriber, you will help us continue produce 42 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,880 the content you've been seeing from us for almost 2 decades. 43 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,840 And this includes the books that we have been producing, the 44 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,720 articles that you've been seeing, daily interviews with 45 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,560 the mega stars of international relations, as well as this 46 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,640 podcast since the last episode. Our Executive Producer, Kira 47 00:03:01,640 --> 00:03:04,920 Damira and I were at this year's British International Studies 48 00:03:04,920 --> 00:03:07,960 Association conference in Brighton, where we interviewed 49 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,720 several participants, including this year's keynote speaker, 50 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,000 Kimberly Hutchins. I'd also like to give a shout to 51 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,920 the Thinking Global podcast team and the episodes they have 52 00:03:16,920 --> 00:03:19,240 produced recently, so go check them out. 53 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,320 Now let's go back to today's episode. 54 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,480 In the new thinking. Borders episode I had the 55 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,320 pleasure of interviewing Nando Segona, Professor of 56 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,720 International Migration and for Displacement at the University 57 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,200 of Birmingham and Director of the Institute for Research into 58 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,560 International Migration and Super Diversity. 59 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,320 I've known Nando for a few years and I always admired his work, 60 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,840 so it's been an absolute pleasure to interview him. 61 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,880 We talk about everything, migration of course, borders, 62 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,280 narratives, Brexit, the EU and so much more. 63 00:03:53,040 --> 00:04:01,400 So let's do this. I am Nando Seguna, Professor of 64 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,520 Migration Studies at the University of Birmingham. 65 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:05,760 Thank you so much for joining us today. 66 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,160 So your work focuses extensively on the intersection of 67 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,320 migration, citizenship, and belonging. 68 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,200 What first drew you to this field of research? 69 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,000 It's it's a field that emerged over time. 70 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,440 What I mean is that initially my work was very much focused on 71 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,120 Romani communities in Italy working. 72 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:32,480 I was working in in Roma camp in Naples as an activist and as a 73 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:37,200 young researcher at the time. And my interest has to be, well, 74 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:41,760 I said, to be interested in the way that culture was constructed 75 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:46,440 as a tool for excluding people in the Italian society. 76 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,560 Gradually from that sort of attention to culture as a sort 77 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,440 of cultural racist, I'll start to look at Roma more as a 78 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,120 refugees, as people that were escaping from former Yugoslavia, 79 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,360 but for whom the label refugee was not available. 80 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:06,480 So the Roma struggle to be accepted as a as a refugees in 81 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,200 the in the in the Italian context. 82 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,240 And here is where the main interest for labels and and 83 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,600 bureaucratic categories start to develop. 84 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:20,640 So how people could move between different kind of systems of 85 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:25,880 bureaucratic system, bureaucratic pathways according 86 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:30,760 to which label was applied to them, the the intersection 87 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,120 between migration, citizenship and belonging. 88 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,520 It's something that came a bit later when so there was already 89 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,120 at the time an interest towards sort of the, what I used to call 90 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,400 the soft borders of citizenship, of the margin of citizenship, 91 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,720 etcetera. But then with Brexit later on 92 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:51,600 in, you know, since 2016, somehow my, my own positionality 93 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,880 became much more central also to my research interest, my 94 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:01,120 positionality as a, as a migrant, myself as a European 95 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,360 citizen in the context of Britain leaving the European 96 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:09,200 Union, ETC. So the point was just to try to 97 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,120 see how the, this boundary, this boundary, this label and the 98 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,720 system or categorization can move and shift. 99 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:21,200 What are the events that produce this earthquakes or what are the 100 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,560 events that can produce a border around the person to be 101 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,640 withdrawn. And so that that's, and then I 102 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,640 start to look at basically the position of migrants and 103 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:36,240 rationalised minorities in a much more relational way to try 104 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,680 and use it to understand in a way, what's the vision of 105 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,520 citizenship, what is the vision of membership that underpin 106 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:47,200 specific forms of exclusion. It's great to hear how people 107 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,720 start from one point and then throughout their careers reach 108 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:54,800 the point that they are now. So your work engages with people 109 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,320 whose voices are often marginalised in political 110 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,040 discussions. How do you approach bringing 111 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,720 those perspectives forward in in your research? 112 00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:08,240 A lot of people working in migration studies, particularly 113 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,480 those who would like to be the final as critical migration 114 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:15,120 studies will tell you that they, you know, they're sympathetic to 115 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:16,720 the stories of the people they work with. 116 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:22,200 They, you know, give voice to people and, and they, you know, 117 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:26,640 the starting point is one of wanting to be helpful, empathic 118 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,120 to the plight of people that are marginalised. 119 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,920 And this is something that a lot of people share and myself as 120 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,920 well. At some point I decided also to 121 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,920 start to think more critically about what this voice means 122 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,720 though, because obviously it's, it's you know, there's people 123 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,960 writing about the migrants to be having no voice or being 124 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,680 voiceless. So the refugees being, you know, 125 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,080 silenced, etcetera. And really, you know, when you 126 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:56,040 talk to the refugees and the migrants of the asylum seeks, 127 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,640 they tell, you know, they speaks a lot, you know, they have 128 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,120 views, they have opinions, they try to voice them. 129 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,040 They the version of the story that they tell is also 130 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,320 fundamental for their position in our in, in the receiving 131 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,200 society. So the what I start to think 132 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,000 about is like to problematize this idea of the voice. 133 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,320 So what is voice? How is produced, for what 134 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,160 purpose, in what context? What are the power relation that 135 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,400 underpin the voice? And also try to re basically 136 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:28,280 give back agency to the voiceless by also try to 137 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,360 understand, you know, the, the, the system within which there's 138 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,760 stories and the narrative is framed. 139 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:37,880 And, and why, for example, silence is in many cases also a, 140 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:43,400 a form of resistance, depending of, you know, the value that 141 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,680 this narrative has or the not having a narrative has the how 142 00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:52,280 to do this, how to making this, this sort of way of thinking 143 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,360 more evident in, in the way we actually do research. 144 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:02,200 So the research is a practise work I've been sort of trying to 145 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,080 do in various way over time. And there is a lot of 146 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:09,920 experimenting going on and quite a few failures in terms of 147 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:11,720 things that work out in the way you want. 148 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,400 But sometimes by embracing a more reflexive practise, 149 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,520 sometimes also the things that don't work on the the first time 150 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,720 may sort of start to make more sense later on. 151 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,280 I don't do, or at least what I try to do is not to do research 152 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,960 on migrants, on migration, but with migrants, with refugees, 153 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,960 with young people. This also means, for example, to 154 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,720 question some of the practise that we use in research. 155 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,240 You know, what kind of contract do we use? 156 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,440 How much do you pay people for the participation that their 157 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,520 work? Why, for example, it's 158 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,520 acceptable to give someone an incentive for participating in 159 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:57,800 in a research, but not if the person is poor or unemployed. 160 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,840 So there are there is on several levels. 161 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:04,080 We need to think about how to engage with people. 162 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,120 What we tried to do is, for example, in the project called 163 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,680 Becoming Adult, about 10 years ago, I was working with Elaine 164 00:10:11,680 --> 00:10:19,440 Chase from UCL and we employed I think 1012 young people that had 165 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:24,600 the experience of the as of the migration system as a former and 166 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,560 accompanied minors. And we trained them and they 167 00:10:27,560 --> 00:10:31,080 became our research assistant, our field workers. 168 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,920 And they were not just involved in carry out an interview that 169 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:37,960 then was transcribed and give it to us. 170 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,680 They were involved in formulating the questions we 171 00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:44,040 were using. They were participating in the 172 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,000 interview with us. They then sort of start to do 173 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,640 the interview themselves. But also they were involved some 174 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,320 of them at least not everyone, because people may have also 175 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:58,320 different plan for their life. They we quote the number of 176 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:04,360 research outputs, but also we in some case, in one case in 177 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:10,400 particular, we also work with a theatre company to develop some 178 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,560 sort of monologues based on the interviews that would carry out. 179 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:19,080 One of that one of them end up going to speak at the radio 180 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:20,720 about the experience of the project. 181 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,800 So it wasn't what you need to learn as a researcher that if 182 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,320 you want to make real sort of a participative participatory 183 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,680 process, you also need some point also step back and not 184 00:11:31,680 --> 00:11:36,800 having too many assumption about what what people expect from 185 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,440 being involved in a research. You know, not everyone wanted to 186 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,080 quote or a book chapter on a Rutledge book, for example. 187 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,960 You know, that's not the point sometimes of doing research with 188 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,400 you. And so creating space for 189 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,120 listening. It's what we try to do and 190 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:57,600 hopefully some most time works, sometime not and but that's what 191 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,480 we we try to do in practise and also for my more current work, 192 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,280 the I claim project on the improving the working and living 193 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,120 condition of irregularised migrant families in Europe is, 194 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,000 is an Horizon Europe project, which I'm the sort of Co 195 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,000 director and with the University of Utrecht. 196 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,360 It's really part of the kind of work we try to do in each 197 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:23,600 country. We have researcher with lead 198 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,800 experience of the process of the migration systems, in some cases 199 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,680 formally regularised migrants in some places, the experience of 200 00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:34,400 the labour market sector where we worked, some of them were 201 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:39,120 migrant organisers with previous experience of the sector and and 202 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,320 we tried to work with them at various points from but also 203 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,720 involving for example, try to work together on the policy 204 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,880 impacts and how to reach out to the different communities with 205 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:51,840 the findings. So not just about producing 206 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:56,520 academic output or policy output, but also being in in 207 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,760 dialogue with advocacy organisation and trade unions, 208 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,760 etcetera. You mentioned working on and 209 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,600 working with people. Why is it so important to work 210 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:13,040 with people instead of working on people when it comes to 211 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,760 academic research? Well, because one of the problem 212 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:21,600 of migration studies as a field, it's these are the basically of 213 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,240 dehumanised contributing in the dehumanisation of individual, 214 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,520 which are migrant eyes. You know, they, I mean, in this 215 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,520 sense, I mean what I said earlier, my own positionality as 216 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,360 a migrant myself, despite the fact that sometimes people think 217 00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:38,920 forget about it when you are in international setting, but or 218 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,880 when because you are, you know, you've got your academic 219 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:43,880 publication, etcetera. But it's really interesting 220 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,600 because it helps you also to put yourself, try to put yourself in 221 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,640 the shoes of some of the people you work with and also to 222 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,840 understand how, you know, an immigrant is always also an 223 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:59,520 immigrant and they may operate in different kind of systems at 224 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,840 the same time, you know, with obligations, values, 225 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,320 expectations, etcetera, etcetera. 226 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,920 You know, they try to engage with the multiple systems of 227 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:13,640 rules and expectation, which is something which I also think is 228 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:19,240 one of the great contribution that's people that the move 229 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,840 brings in any society where they're settled. 230 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,560 So these are the capacity to always look a bit from the 231 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:26,920 inside and the outside of the what's going on. 232 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,720 You know this possibility of opening up a perspective them 233 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:37,200 not being seen by if you always within the the the dominant gaze 234 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,840 on on society, what's going to go in society. 235 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,000 The your question again about why it's important to involve. 236 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,280 It's important to involve because we want to produce 237 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,600 knowledge and knowledge, knowledge protection on 238 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,040 migration, which is relevant to the community we work with, 239 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,280 rather than only extracting knowledge. 240 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,520 Then to be used by the states that have as a a primary goal 241 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,600 the exclusion, marginalisation or extraction of the capital 242 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,440 from from these people that can be to work, for example. 243 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,720 So extraction, again, as I've said before, is from you have to 244 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,720 think about it from the point of the research to in terms of the 245 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,880 practise of doing research to our research is used. 246 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,400 So how do you then disseminate your findings? 247 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,240 Who do you talk to who you try to involve you in the 248 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,480 conversation around the research and research finding. 249 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:28,960 This is important. So here the, the migrant 250 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,720 communities, the individuals, the families are, are, are an 251 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:36,840 important part of this process rather than just sort of the the 252 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,080 raw material that he used to produce knowledge as things 253 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,440 happen in some cases. Thank you. 254 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,360 I think this is going to be your response is going to be quite 255 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:51,120 helpful for younger researchers who are starting thinking about 256 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,080 these issues. You know, when, when you respond 257 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,320 a question like this, there is always several multiple ways in 258 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,360 which you approach things. And, and I think there is 259 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,920 something about the the reflexivity and reflecting what 260 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:06,760 you did before and the people you encounter. 261 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,080 What has been so that you do a research and you're only able to 262 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:14,160 see at the impact of what you do in the very short term. 263 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,960 If you have done this work now for a number of years, sometimes 264 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,200 you can see more the long term effects on some of the of of the 265 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,440 work being carried out, but also on the people that were 266 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,920 involved. And this can be useful to plan 267 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,040 the next steps and how to engage with people, etcetera. 268 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:33,720 Doesn't mean that it always works. 269 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,400 I mean this, I want to be clear, it's not like this is a magic 270 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,040 wand. Partly there are characters, 271 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,520 things that happen between people in the way they work, but 272 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,640 the result about managing expectations and sometimes you 273 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,080 end up promising more you can deliver in this field in terms 274 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,960 of, you know, I'm not in a position to give you a permanent 275 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,120 contract, for example. That has to be clear. 276 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:00,560 I mean, it's, but I can help you to build a profile that will 277 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,440 enable you or facilitate you in the next step of your career. 278 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,240 1st of this is something, a conversation you need to have 279 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,079 with people and, and a various point. 280 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:10,400 And also you have to understand that sometimes what you say in 281 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,079 your academic language doesn't necessarily means the same thing 282 00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:17,520 to the same people. So it's also about to try to, to 283 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,839 open a space for where to talk with the people that work with 284 00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:23,560 you. Is is important in in these 285 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,160 processes? So now we're going to focus a 286 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:31,120 little bit more on the EU. So the EU has been described by 287 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:34,920 many as Fortress Europe. This is also a term that I use 288 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,600 generally and I have used for quite a long time and I have 289 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,440 been criticised for using this term. 290 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,960 Do you think it's an accurate way of describing what's 291 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,240 happening at the EU borders today? 292 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,440 I don't know if you know, but I don't like it. 293 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:49,720 I mean, it's, I don't know if you ever spoken about it 294 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,720 already, but the point I think it's, it's a very powerful 295 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:58,720 image, but in a way it's oversimplify what is what 296 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,840 migration represent for Europe and European Union. 297 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,760 You know, you just need to to look at the figure, you know, 298 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,000 the number of people that comes every year within European with 299 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,520 the European Union on tourist visa, visitor visa, working 300 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,480 permit and any other forms of visa to see that the scale of 301 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,920 the mobility within European Union and is, you know, size 302 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,920 wise is uncomparable with the number of people that are 303 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,000 stopped at the borders and they may try to cross. 304 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,000 This doesn't mean that actually the experience, the people that 305 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,640 are stopped at the border are not important or they are not. 306 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:40,000 And it's not our duty as a researchers, as activists, as a 307 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:41,640 journalist to tell those stories. 308 00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:47,760 But for me, when I work and I try to understand what migration 309 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,680 is within the European countries and for European Union, I need 310 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:55,320 to be able to also be able to step back and understand that 311 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,720 that's only part one part of the story. 312 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,640 Because in a way, by focusing only on the on the closure and 313 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,800 the fortress, we are also contributing to reproduce 314 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,600 something which has become so dominant in the narrative around 315 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,480 migration, which is the idea of crisis. 316 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,360 So we are in a sense from a more liberal angle, from a more sort 317 00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:19,560 of perspective of those who like to work with the migrants. 318 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,920 But we are contributing by producing this narrative around 319 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,080 crisis, which is used then by also by the the right wing, by 320 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,880 the policy policy makers, by politicians. 321 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,720 So normalising migration is what I will say much more as my role 322 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,720 as a researcher. So to show the the normality of 323 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,120 no, sorry, I said normalising normalising migration. 324 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:44,160 See, I said normalising migration. 325 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:49,960 So migration as a a phenomenon, though just part of our history 326 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,840 from forever, but also a phenomenon that is embedded in 327 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:56,320 the current in this in this current shape is embedded in the 328 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,160 current economic and power relationship that dominates the 329 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:04,400 world is is important. The issues of the of the of the. 330 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,480 The narrow focus in a sense it's also something that we recently 331 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,440 discovered by doing research on the political and media 332 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:20,680 narrative on irregular migration in in Europe as part of the I 333 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,040 Claim project. So what we did, we we worked on 334 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:29,200 two things on the narrative by political actors and media and 335 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:35,400 we worked on public perception. So the in in six countries, so 336 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:41,120 the the UK, Germany, Finland, the Netherlands, Italy and 337 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,720 Poland in particular, and also the Ulab. 338 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:49,440 So one thing which emerged, for example, is that the, the, by 339 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,880 far the narrative around the regular migration is dominated 340 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:59,280 by a vision of the border, the border crossings, the, the, the 341 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:04,040 boats, the, the small boats, the fences and, and barbed wife. 342 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,120 What is interesting for me as a researcher was worked on issues 343 00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:11,000 of irregularized migration, irregularized migrants in Europe 344 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,640 is that interestingly, the large majority of those who cross on 345 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,640 small boat, they actually enter irregularly, but then they 346 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,560 become asylum seekers and in the the majority of cases they're 347 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,640 also refugees. So in many ways, if I'm really 348 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:29,200 so concerned with irregular migrants in UK or in Germany, 349 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,440 looking just at the border is actually not that relevant. 350 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,960 If I won't really understand who is actually, who are the people 351 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,440 with the with the precarious legal status on a regularised 352 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,240 position in UK today or in Germany today? 353 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,880 I'm going to look instead at what are the actual mechanism 354 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:51,000 that makes people precarious and not nothing to do with the the 355 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,760 external border, but a lot to do with the internal bordering, by 356 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,480 which I mean by all those systems that have been embedded 357 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:03,200 in the migration regime that impose very restrictive 358 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:09,480 requirement or renewal, renewing a visa, extremely high visa 359 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,120 costs, restrict family reunion, etcetera, etcetera. 360 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,480 So if I'm keen to criticise and engage with irregular migration, 361 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,520 I focus on the migration regime rather than on the border 362 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,840 crossing because it's the migration regime that produce 363 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,840 specific configuration vulnerabilities, affect migrants 364 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,600 who are irregularized. So this is one of the reason why 365 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,440 sometimes I look at the discretion of Fortress Europe, 366 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,560 which seems very much focused on the border crossing at the sea 367 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,560 as limiting also in terms of the possibility they give us to 368 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,360 understand what's going on. Also in terms of the people that 369 00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:44,240 we are worried about. It's not just about, it's not 370 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,600 just about the, I care about the IE skilled workers. 371 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,080 It's not that. It's also about the the people 372 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,440 that marginalised in our in Europe today. 373 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,560 They not necessarily came from Beirut and we are missing some 374 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,240 of the of the causes of their marginalisation by only focusing 375 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,040 on the on the board. That's very interesting and I 376 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,920 hadn't thought about it from this point of view because, as I 377 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,560 said, it is a term that I am using quite a lot. 378 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:14,240 I have been criticised at conferences quite a lot, but I 379 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,240 also agree with what you have said about narratives and how we 380 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,160 use these narratives and how they can affect people. 381 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:26,280 And this leads me to the next question about how borders and 382 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,440 migration are framed as in terms of a crisis. 383 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,920 For example, we have heard about the migration crisis and the 384 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,720 small boat crisis that are being used quite a lot in the media. 385 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,240 What what are the impacts of this kind of narrative, 386 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,760 specifically when it comes to the word crisis? 387 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:48,480 Crisis often require basically indicate something that is 388 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:55,600 unusual, unexpected out of the ordinary and the full require 389 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,080 some kind of measure of intervention, which is 390 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,760 exceptional, variously defined. You know something outside the 391 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,920 normal routes. How can be a crisis. 392 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,680 The fact that people you know arrive into Europe on both as we 393 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,760 something that we have seen it for 2030 forty years. 394 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,280 You know that regularly people in the summer season were 395 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,160 started arriving by both of the border, for example, you know 396 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,880 what is a crime. So what is defined as a crisis 397 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,160 is the important, it's part of, you know, what's in in in a kind 398 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,440 of an Focaldian framework. You know, when we talk about the 399 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,080 problematisation of a specific phenomenon, it's already quite 400 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,400 interested to identify and discuss, tell us a lot about the 401 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:40,560 society, but also become central to then see how the issue is 402 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,120 dealt with, what kind of solution can put forward 403 00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:47,120 etcetera. So the point is that so to think 404 00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:51,760 about migration as normal, that doesn't mean that they, you 405 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,160 know, from a point to point of view of policy maker is not 406 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:56,600 something that need to be managed. 407 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:03,080 So they need to be sort of found way of providing support, public 408 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:08,320 services, understand sort of the the implication for policy 409 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,080 making, etcetera. But the crisis itself in a way 410 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:15,920 shut out a number of possibilities that could be on 411 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:21,760 the plate if we were taking a more sort of non Christ kind of 412 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:26,560 approach to to mobility. It's also alight somehow a a way 413 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,760 that by building the crisis that the politics you tell us 414 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:35,920 something about what what is migration for in Europe today? 415 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,560 You know, what I often say is that the politics of migration 416 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,880 sometimes has nothing to do with the migrants. 417 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,840 You know, the politics of migration is all played on a 418 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,800 different kind of level and in which the migrants and migration 419 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:55,320 is the the means, not the the end goal is is the means by 420 00:25:55,320 --> 00:26:01,120 which, for example, political party gain power. 421 00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:05,920 Is the means by which someone can create a semi private army 422 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:11,280 which is founded with billions of dollars more than the old 423 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,920 cost of the Swedish army and basically use it to stop 424 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,600 migrants and the war on migrants. 425 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,760 You know, the migrants become the tool by which Donald Trump 426 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,880 has built this personal army and he can do the ICE and can do 427 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,680 whatever they want with it outside, with people going 428 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:32,160 around in balaclava operating often outside the normal 429 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,720 judicial system. OK, so that's an an extreme 430 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,920 case. But the point is that we find 431 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,240 ourselves and this is where the point immediately about the 432 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,080 narratives is also important because the other side of the 433 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,240 research we did around the narrative around the irregular 434 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,400 migration was about it's about public perceptions. 435 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:53,640 And there's something we we are currently finalising and it's 436 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,720 going to come out soon. So depending on when this 437 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,480 podcast comes out, maybe the report will be just available 438 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,520 and I recommend people to go to check on the website of the I 439 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,680 claim project. But the point is that what our 440 00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:10,040 representative survey we carried out on in six country early this 441 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:15,040 year shows is that the the fact that that the narrative around 442 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,360 the borders is completely replicated also among how the 443 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,720 the public perceive irregular migration. 444 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,640 So also the the public thinks that all the regular migrants 445 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,400 come on the small boat and they bridge the borders by crossing 446 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,440 irregularly. So, so in many ways. 447 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,800 So that narrative of crisis that is used by politician also 448 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,760 philtre and it's acquit in the way that the public perceive 449 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,040 migration. And then so how the politician I 450 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:49,000 act on those perception is basically based on kind of a a 451 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,840 vicious cycle of stereotypes, misrepresentation of the 452 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,080 phenomenon. The consequence, however, are 453 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,440 very real on the people that send up in in a court in the 454 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,640 systems. And, and we see very much now 455 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,560 about, you know, the the very bad impact of the for example, 456 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,200 this restriction they have been imposed for example, on, on 457 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,320 family reunion or the debate, the current debate about 458 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,800 reducing their access to indefinitely to remain for for 459 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,880 migrants in the country is going to have a very much long term 460 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,640 consequences on migrant and their families. 461 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,720 But in a sense is in response to a narrative that is not in their 462 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,960 control in any way. I'm going to focus a little bit 463 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,160 on on EU citizens in the UK after Brexit now. 464 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,960 So you've mentioned already that you are leading major projects 465 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,520 on EU citizens in the UK after Brexit. 466 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,080 What have you found most surprising about how people have 467 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:53,920 responded to this changes? I've I carried out two such a 468 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,360 large project around in the in the post Brexit referendum 469 00:28:58,360 --> 00:28:59,880 period. The first one was called Euro 470 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:05,160 children and it was focused on the EU citizen and their 471 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,320 families in post referendum sort of Britain. 472 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:15,000 And the second one was called rebordering Britons and Britons 473 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,640 after after Brexit. So the the in many ways the the 474 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:24,040 two projects were initially conceived as complementary 1 475 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:25,480 coming after the other by reality. 476 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,480 What we found out at the significant consequences on the 477 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,440 second project, Let me let me explain. 478 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,520 So the first one was very much looking at the impact of Brexit 479 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:41,960 referendum on the EU citizen. Why was interesting to to me was 480 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,000 obviously because of my own position and positionality, my 481 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:49,320 own family as a your family, but also mixed family somehow. 482 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:55,840 But also because in the British new citizen in UK, we're not 483 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,280 migrants. We're not migrants because 484 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,920 obviously this is the language that we are not allowed to use 485 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:02,240 by the European Union at the time. 486 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,560 So the, the this is in triune mobility, we're free movers, 487 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,600 etcetera. So there is a policy dimension 488 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:13,360 to this, but also we're not migrants in the sense that EU 489 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,720 citizen from outside Britain and EU citizen in Britain, we're all 490 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:21,560 sort of part of the same sort of idea of of common European 491 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,200 Union. And so in many ways, the legal 492 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,840 framework was different. And this is one element which is 493 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,880 in, in a sense the idea of citizenship and migration again 494 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,520 come into into play. So it's not just about 495 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,840 citizenship of the country. And now it relates to our 496 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,760 conceptualization of the migrants that I'm interested in, 497 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,080 but also ideas of citizenship, which is super national. 498 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,560 And now it creates system of mobilities which in a sense 499 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:55,160 operate outside the space of who was defined a third country 500 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,760 nation of a migrant. You know, the EU citizen are not 501 00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,720 migrant or we're not meant to be called migrants. 502 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,320 And why? The point though, is also more 503 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:08,120 sort of on a on a more deeper level, it's also to try. 504 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,680 My interest has always been about to understand, to 505 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,240 understand the specific political and ideological 506 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,960 project, produce specific ideas or membership. 507 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,080 So what I was interested at that point was to say, what does it 508 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,720 mean for AU citizen that lives in another country in the 509 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:31,240 European Union to find themselves no longer a citizen 510 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,600 among the other citizen in a sense, but in a sense being 511 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,040 migrantized and treated in a different way. 512 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,280 So what means in terms of shift of the bureaucratic framework, 513 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,720 but also of the language we use to narrate and describe the 514 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,200 mobility. And so that was one of the the 515 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,760 thing which was fascinating. The second thing, the second 516 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,400 project about rebordering Britains and Britains after 517 00:31:55,400 --> 00:32:00,760 Brexit was in a sense moving beyond the impact on new citizen 518 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,840 and their families, which in many ways was in a sense a 519 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,680 narrow definition of what Brexit is. 520 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,560 Because Brexit, you know, has had an impact on the new citizen 521 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,000 international, but has had an impact on British society more 522 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,960 generally. And it's also, as we found out 523 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,280 over the years doing research, a massive impact on the on 524 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,000 migration, migration flows and migration governance. 525 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,120 You know, the country had to completely rethink their 526 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,720 migration governance, you know, because of the living the 527 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,240 European Union and also the end of freedom movement. 528 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,400 But also in a sense that the people that wanted to come to 529 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,640 Britain changed. One, one of the things we 530 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,160 discovered when we started to do the second project in which we 531 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,440 were meant to see the impact of Brexit on on EU nationals. 532 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,840 You know, five years after the referendum that EU national were 533 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,680 not coming anymore, You know, so, so the EU citizen that you 534 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,160 find now in United Kingdom are mostly people that settled, 535 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,480 settled status or presetal status. 536 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:07,640 So that is people that came before 2021 and what we noticed 537 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:12,360 that there was that the current flows of EU nationals towards 538 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,960 Britain have declined significantly. 539 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,720 And and then it's interesting to wonder why is the case, you 540 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:24,480 know, what makes a destination more or less appealing, what was 541 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,120 basically leading EU national to come to the UK. 542 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,680 And this is where, again, the idea of the ideological and 543 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,200 political projects come into play. 544 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:37,120 You know, the the geopolitical dimension of that produce 545 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:41,400 specific configuration of the migrant subject. 546 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,960 You know, in an article we discussed with Michaela Benson 547 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,320 recently for the International Migration Review, we looked 548 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:53,520 exactly at this about the, the geopolitics and biopolitics of, 549 00:33:54,560 --> 00:34:00,040 of migration during Brexit. So how a geopolitical shift and 550 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,760 change in the sort of in the political vision at the macro 551 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:08,920 level creates new migrants. That is even the, the, the 552 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,480 migrants that come are different in terms of rights, entitlement, 553 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,400 aspiration, possibility. And what we think, what we say 554 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,120 is that essentially the post Brexit migrants, despite the 555 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,080 fact we spend a lot of time in the UK to talk about the fact 556 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,400 that there is so many more migrants and then migration has 557 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,679 to go down and everything seems to all the old world seems to 558 00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:31,679 collapse if the migration goes down. 559 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,280 The reality this and this is where it become very frustrating 560 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,560 to do research in this field because it seems like that the 561 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,639 conversation of migration is like completely wrong foot going 562 00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:45,480 on is the fact that actually the post Brexit migrant is 563 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:51,040 essentially much weaker and docile and exploitable than the 564 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,280 pre Brexit migrants. Essentially with Brexit we have 565 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,040 had on one end the liberalisation of visa, but also 566 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:03,400 very much a movement in terms of of welcoming migrants which have 567 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,120 less rights, less possibility to settle, they pay much more money 568 00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:13,360 and they tend to be silenced and and only treated as workers 569 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:28,800 rather as full citizen. Hey, this is just a quick 570 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,200 bulletin, quick memo, quick moment. 571 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,200 Yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll go with memo. 572 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,440 This is just a quick memo to remind you to click on that 573 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,880 little subscribe or follow button because I know you've not 574 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,960 done it yet. 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I I had never thought about it 597 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,920 before, but I have started describing myself as a migrant 598 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,080 to my students, which is something I hadn't done before 599 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,840 because of the privilege I had with the European passport. 600 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,960 But I've also noticed the way that Greeks who want to move to 601 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,840 the UK are being treated and the advice that they receive because 602 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:42,440 I am in several online groups for Greeks in the UK, for 603 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,080 example and. What? 604 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,400 What kind of what do you notice in terms of what kind of advice 605 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:55,880 did they receive? So Greeks who live here for many 606 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,480 years, who've been here for many years and most of them have 607 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:03,400 citizenship, basically tell them don't or go to Ireland. 608 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,440 Some might receive some dodgy offers for work. 609 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:15,040 And this is very common within the Greek community specifically 610 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,920 for because I've read quite a lot of stories of people coming 611 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,520 to the UK, working in the black market and then being arrested 612 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:28,520 and sent back to Grace, which in the past I had some discussions 613 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,520 with people who have been in the UK. 614 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,400 Greeks would have been in the UK before Brexit and they were like 615 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,800 those who came before Brexit were the ones who had money and 616 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,760 they ended up, they came to study, they ended up working for 617 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,840 the city and that's it. Those who come now are the ones 618 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:50,120 who have who are opening, who came immediately after Brexit. 619 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:54,280 They have opened cafes or restaurants and places like 620 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,240 that. And this also has to do with 621 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:03,920 with the Greek economic crisis. It's it's a strange realisation. 622 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:09,840 What we notice you know, when we advertise research position, we 623 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:11,920 you know, the number of application coming from the 624 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,960 European units or from from EU citizen is declined 625 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,200 significantly. And the only one you get is from 626 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:21,040 people that are already in UK. So the cost attached to it. 627 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,240 Now we're coming from Italy on a two years contract. 628 00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:26,800 And what does imply and the fact that you don't have security but 629 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,440 will come next. You know, from the the sense of 630 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,000 you. You see the will think twice 631 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,640 about the fact of finding themselves in the specific 632 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,880 position as as a migrants in Britain for what did that 633 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,360 percent You know, in the sense you're no longer a citizen. 634 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,880 Your voting rights have changed, your voice changed, your 635 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:51,120 permanency is now continuously depends on shifting goal post 636 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:56,080 that seems to move every other week when the new minister is 637 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,920 appointed that they come with their own genius plan about 638 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,480 migration. So it's really I mean there are 639 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,040 other place within the context of the European Union where 640 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,000 there are better conditions more secure and will enable people to 641 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:13,160 build a longer terms projects which Britain doesn't no longer 642 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,160 offer for you citizen while other people we still find very 643 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,480 attractive. You know, it's always relative 644 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,440 about the the choice of destination and why you end up 645 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,840 in a place rather than another. But there's still this longing, 646 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:30,720 at least among regs of going to the UK and living in the UK. 647 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,560 And I do not really understand it because yeah, the language is 648 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:39,560 an is a, a major factor. But other than the language, 649 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:45,520 there's nothing else. So that that always surprises me 650 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,320 to see people saying, oh, I want to come to the UK. 651 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,400 It's it's my dream to come to the UK. 652 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,720 Well, I remember many years ago doing research with the Romanian 653 00:40:55,720 --> 00:41:00,960 communities in in Italy and when I and I found out that their 654 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:06,640 main and first point of where people were meeting up was in in 655 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,320 front of the Trion column in Rome. 656 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,080 And the Trion column is where basically there is the story of 657 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:18,200 was basically there is story of the conquest of Romania by the 658 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,640 Roman Empire. So it's quite interesting. 659 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,400 You could argue that the British Museum may be a place where 660 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:28,240 Greek people feel comfortable or in a strange way to to feel, you 661 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:32,560 know, the an element of home in there with all the what it's 662 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,240 political dimension to it. But also, I mean, there is 663 00:41:35,240 --> 00:41:36,640 historical, there are connection. 664 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,000 Clearly, you know, the the post arrangement, post First World 665 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,040 War and the devolvement of Britain has great power. 666 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,520 So there are historical link even if not on on between the 667 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:52,000 two countries as well, potentially also during the the 668 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:57,440 70s and, and, and the various sort of right wing authoritarian 669 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,920 regimes and people moving out of Greece, seeking refuge, 670 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,640 etcetera, etcetera. So there are longer histories as 671 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:07,680 well, various maybe that they connect people in different. 672 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:13,240 But it's, I mean, we one of the, the, one of the place where, 673 00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:16,200 which I went to look for when I was trying to understand this, 674 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,160 what's happened to the EU migration towards the UK was to 675 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,400 look at the data on international students. 676 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:29,520 You know, OK, so after Brexit, gradually we had kind of a faced 677 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,000 faced approach, but it basically be, you see, the students were 678 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,440 no longer treated as home students, but they became 679 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:38,920 treated as international students. 680 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:44,400 That meant, you know, they, they had no longer access to the 681 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:48,080 financial support system that British students get and that 682 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,640 the fee would become three times more expensive. 683 00:42:51,240 --> 00:42:56,520 And clearly that meant that the numbers of of you students 684 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,520 coming to Britain collapsed. You know that if you look at the 685 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,600 data from the last couple of years, you will see that there 686 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,880 is a very tiny number of EU students coming in. 687 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,120 There were mostly I think I remember when last year were 688 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:12,000 French national and there were about less than 2000 French 689 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:16,120 students beginning an undergraduate course in Britain 690 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:21,000 last year when there were about over 150 under 60,000 Chinese or 691 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,240 Indian. That's the give you the size of 692 00:43:23,240 --> 00:43:26,280 the population. That's very much indicate a 693 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,560 change, you know, a reorientation of the of the 694 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,840 migration flows, but also the of the relationship between the 695 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,120 European Union and Britain in many ways, you know, 696 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,720 economically was no longer liable in viable to to to come 697 00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:43,080 to do a court. And interestingly, now that 698 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:47,640 there is the, the approachment between Keir Starmer, Labour and 699 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,320 the European Union, one of the key things on the table is again 700 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:58,840 the the changing tax regime or feed regime for the EU students 701 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,000 to Britain and the other vice versa. 702 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,040 Why is it important? Because very much migration and 703 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,680 and especially youth migration is central in the construction 704 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:10,560 of that kind of ideological project. 705 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,560 I was talking about, you know, the new, the the things that 706 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:16,800 we're saying about the next generation, the new generation, 707 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,320 the future leader, etcetera. The Rasmus has very much central 708 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,480 to the European project of creating a pan European sense of 709 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:28,280 identity, which also meant intermarriages and mixed 710 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,720 families and people that move the mobility etcetera. 711 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,680 So this reapproachment with European Union from the 712 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,360 perspective of the UK, I'm not surprised that this is an 713 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:44,280 important part of it. And so we're going to see how 714 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:48,000 serious this reapproachment is by also how the mobility of 715 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:49,320 young people is going to be treated. 716 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,560 It's quite interesting. I'm going to remain in the UK, 717 00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:59,400 but now I'll focus a bit on the migration policies for irregular 718 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,080 migrants. How would you assess the UK 719 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,880 migration policies from from the Rwanda plan to the UK France 720 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,680 Agreement? So the, the, the way that I 721 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:14,960 understand the Rwanda plan is, isn't it, I think it's a mix of 722 00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:17,400 two or three things. On what level? 723 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:22,360 There is clearly a, a giving an indication, you know, that we 724 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,000 send them to this place in the middle of Africa because it's, 725 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,600 you know, it's a place where no one wants to go. 726 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,600 So that very much a kind of underpinning the logic of 727 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,400 migrants will not come anymore here if we send them in a place 728 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:40,440 they may never wanted to be. So that is kind of a racist 729 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,000 underpinning stereotypes and etcetera. 730 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,520 So that is the level. The choice of 1 is also very 731 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,880 much interesting because obviously one is part of the 732 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:54,600 Commonwealth and it was very much indicating and, and I mean, 733 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:58,440 I'm not making this up myself. I mean the, the, the, the Home 734 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,240 Secretary at the time made actually specifically clear that 735 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:06,720 now they were no longer limited because of the European Union 736 00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:09,920 and its rules. Now we can reconnect with our 737 00:46:11,240 --> 00:46:18,880 old partners, former colonial and colonial former colonies as 738 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,080 well. And and so basically similarly 739 00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,520 that that relationship very much signalled some kind of an idea 740 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:27,880 of we are reorienting the country towards the 741 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,320 Commonwealth, you know, by giving an important role to a 742 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:34,000 former colony and now member of the Commonwealth. 743 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,480 In fact, it's interesting that at the same time that the Rwanda 744 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:43,160 plant was launched, the UK also the Commonwealth also hosts it's 745 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:47,360 a sort of big sort of meetings of all they had the states from 746 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,240 the exactly in in Rwanda in the same time. 747 00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:54,800 So it was kind of a reward of almost for this this this role 748 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,600 that Rwanda was having. The interesting other thing is 749 00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:01,240 that what was the value of Rwanda plan for the the 750 00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:03,280 government at the time. It's also important to think 751 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:08,560 about it this we in the sense we go back to the point about the, 752 00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:12,200 the logical crisis and, and the extent to which the migration 753 00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,160 politics sometime is not that much to do with the real 754 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,400 migrants. And this idea that the, if you, 755 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:23,120 if you look at the media debate at the time, what you find out 756 00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:27,640 is that the Rwanda plan was a, a very central element of the 757 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:33,000 migration strategy in from the point of view the government and 758 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:35,080 the media. So the sense everyone talks 759 00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:37,240 about two things when talk about migration during the 760 00:47:37,240 --> 00:47:40,320 Conservative governments. 1 is the weather plan and the other 761 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:44,480 one is the BB store com, the barge that was parked down in 762 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,760 Dorset, I think. So the so the the weather plan 763 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:54,080 become almost like that that cut kind of strategy that is applied 764 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,920 to direct attention of the of the conversation towards 765 00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,160 something that the reality never happened, cost a lot of money. 766 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,880 And even if was actually implemented, would never have 767 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:07,400 provided the solution to the shoe that they were talking 768 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:08,800 about. Because obviously the number of 769 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:12,320 people that they could send to Rwanda was a tiny minority of 770 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:13,680 those who were crossing irregular. 771 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:15,920 If that was the problem that they wanted to solve. 772 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,200 Paradoxically, this is where people sometimes at the time 773 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,760 didn't notice. It was that the Rwanda plan was 774 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,360 so much directing the attention towards that thing a long way 775 00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:31,080 away and at the same time the the government of Rishi Sunak 776 00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:35,800 and Boris Johnson were liberalising the visa for legal 777 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:37,520 migrants. This is the period in which we 778 00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:42,040 have the record number of visa being granted post the COVID 779 00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,480 period. No, this is what then the Labour 780 00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:48,040 Party found that was this regular net migration was the 781 00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:52,240 result of a shift in policy that basically made entry requirement 782 00:48:52,240 --> 00:48:56,000 of specific visa lower and and was very much using the visa 783 00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,800 policy as a tool for diplomatic negotiation with country where 784 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:01,720 we were trying to build the trade alliances. 785 00:49:01,720 --> 00:49:06,320 You know with India, for example of other Commonwealth countries 786 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,920 like Nigeria where you have these large groups that are 787 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,560 invited in to replace the Europeans, for example, in the 788 00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:16,680 NHS and other at the rate. So, so the paradoxically the run 789 00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,960 the plan becomes such a central exempt a solution in invested 790 00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,280 commerce, but at the same time was hiding another project 791 00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:28,440 behind it. The the current attempt of this 792 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:33,400 one in one out project. It's more similar to me to what 793 00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,880 the European Union did with the Turkey, not the EU Turkey deal 794 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,440 in terms of what is trying to do it basically trying to deal with 795 00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,320 the neighbouring country and trying to get the neighbouring 796 00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:50,520 country to take on board the bordering responsibility for 797 00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,320 you. And it's similar because 798 00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:55,560 basically because of Brexit, the relationship obviously between 799 00:49:55,640 --> 00:50:00,000 the UK and Europe and France change radically in terms of, 800 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:02,720 you know, one thing has been part of the European Union in 801 00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:05,480 terms of burden, sharing responsibility, etcetera. 802 00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:10,160 Another thing is to be a rich outsider. 803 00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,480 So in many ways is this a position that is similar to what 804 00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,360 Turkey represent for the European Union in the southern 805 00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:22,760 border is not going to provide the solution that is hoped for. 806 00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:26,800 In many ways, it's it's not that one in one out means that 807 00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:28,800 everyone on campus is going to end up in France. 808 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,080 And it's it's already evident from the very small number of 809 00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,560 people that actually returned to France. 810 00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:35,920 But then also the other way around is that while people 811 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:37,040 leave, other people will come in. 812 00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:41,360 So it's a a very interesting convoluted kind of mechanism 813 00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:45,280 they put in place. More interesting in that sense 814 00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:48,120 is that of cooperation with European Union is all the other 815 00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:54,320 attempt they are doing in terms of dealing with down the stream 816 00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:58,680 kind of networks and how they operate and all the work with 817 00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:02,240 Bulgaria about stopping the production of of inflatable 818 00:51:02,240 --> 00:51:04,920 boats and things like that. So they're trying to do a series 819 00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:07,600 of things. The point is, is what is 820 00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:11,360 happening though it's this is interesting, is that I looked at 821 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:15,320 the data on the immigration enforcement and what the Labour 822 00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:19,680 government's done and is doing. So in many ways the work with 823 00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:24,640 the, the this UK France deal is much more like feeding the 824 00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,160 conversation in the media. So it's basically very much 825 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:28,920 responding to the narrative of the crisis. 826 00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:35,800 But what they've done, which reality is about in a sense 827 00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:39,440 providing a answer to the issue of irregular migration, which I 828 00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,920 think is, is the wrong question rather than the wrong answer. 829 00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,560 And I can tell you a bit more about what I mean, but basically 830 00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:48,360 is to concentrate on the working places. 831 00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:53,960 So what I mean is that by doing grades on workplaces and, and 832 00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:58,400 what they've done is actually they've gone, they've found the 833 00:51:58,720 --> 00:52:01,240 migrants with irregular status in the place where they are 834 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,560 rather than in this imaginary board that that is constructed 835 00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:06,800 in the media. And also what they've done 836 00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,800 because of better diplomatic relationship they've that they 837 00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,480 have billed as part of this trade negotiation, they have 838 00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,000 managed to increase very significantly the number of 839 00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:18,640 removal. So the, the in many ways, the 840 00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,160 one thing which is interesting from the previous government is 841 00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:24,840 that we're talking very tough on irregular migration at border. 842 00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:29,000 But if you look at the data on on removals, we're extremely 843 00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,080 low, lower that we ever seen for many years. 844 00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:34,720 Nowadays we have the opposite. This government has started to 845 00:52:34,720 --> 00:52:38,600 do a lot of removal and and is doing a lot of immigration 846 00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:39,840 rates. I mean, we did the Freedom of 847 00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:44,080 Information request recently to find out what was happening in 848 00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:49,120 Birmingham because we were working with a lot of migrant 849 00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:51,680 with precarious studies, in particular delivery workers. 850 00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:54,640 They were telling us how scared they were about what's going on 851 00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:57,760 on the street. You know, in terms of what one 852 00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,720 of the guys said, the Home Office is everyone and 853 00:53:00,720 --> 00:53:03,160 everywhere. So and then we want to find out 854 00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:05,400 if that was the case. And the Freedom of Information 855 00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,520 data that came back very much highlight our extent to which 856 00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,760 that in the in the first nine months of the Labour government, 857 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,400 there was over 70 to 80% increase in the number of 858 00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:17,920 immigration rates in Birmingham. OK. 859 00:53:18,240 --> 00:53:21,480 So, so there is a much more intense immigration informers 860 00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:25,760 enforcement activities going on at the moment, which also and 861 00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:28,800 there's importantly shift to the focus of the enforcement away 862 00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:32,600 from the border or still on the border, but much more also to 863 00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:37,040 try to understand what's going on in the country and what is 864 00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:38,440 happening. And this is where I think that 865 00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,560 the question is wrong. They are creating a migration 866 00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:48,400 system which is is multiplying the the points of control and is 867 00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,880 also basically relying more and more on short term visa, not 868 00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:56,400 renewable, more restricting entry rules, the requirement for 869 00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,880 renewal and cost, which means that people, everyone who comes 870 00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:03,520 here legally is continuously a danger at risk of being 871 00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:06,040 irregularised. Now this is where we use the 872 00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:06,920 project. We use the term 873 00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:10,280 irregularisation. The irregular migrants is not a 874 00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:14,200 specific kind of essence. It's not someone in genetic 875 00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:15,920 fingerprint that being irregular migrants. 876 00:54:16,240 --> 00:54:19,800 What we need to point to and where the research should be, is 877 00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,000 on the mechanism that within the countries produce the 878 00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,600 irregularisation of people that otherwise may be regular. 879 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,320 You know, the system is producing more and more 880 00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,720 regularised migrants at the moment because of the way that 881 00:54:31,720 --> 00:54:35,880 has been its own architecture. So it's a systemic structural 882 00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,920 element characteristic of the new migration system that while 883 00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:45,560 it pretend or try to limit irregular migration, is actually 884 00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:48,040 created more and more irregularity and precarity. 885 00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,720 Where do you think this irregularization would lead? 886 00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:59,320 Is leading to a situation where we are reproducing a system that 887 00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:04,640 is very colonial in its legacy. What I mean is we are creating a 888 00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:08,360 system which very much segment the labour market even more. 889 00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:12,040 So one of the problem, and this is something I've written and 890 00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:17,240 said in the past with Brexit and the reason for Brexit and it's 891 00:55:17,240 --> 00:55:21,160 not been very much discussed, is that is the fact that the 892 00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:25,960 British voters felt the competition from dual citizen, 893 00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:28,960 because by definition, your citizen is was treated like a 894 00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:30,880 British worker. You know, the, the ace you will 895 00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,240 British citizen, we are all European citizen. 896 00:55:33,240 --> 00:55:35,880 And therefore there should be a quality of right entitlement, 897 00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:38,400 access to job. And there's also not happened 898 00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:42,040 only for the lower paid job, but also in the middle class 899 00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,400 positions. So there was a sense of anxiety 900 00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:46,680 that maybe in the British society. 901 00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:49,160 So this is also why a lot of the middle class voted for Brexit. 902 00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:53,120 Whatever you want. And and so instead what and so 903 00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,240 it's not what I I see it is not, I didn't see it Brexit 904 00:55:57,240 --> 00:55:59,840 necessarily as a problem of racism in a sense. 905 00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,600 I think a large part of the British electorate has always 906 00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:09,360 been very comfortable to deal with foreigners as long as they 907 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,720 were in the lower position in the pecking order and they were 908 00:56:12,720 --> 00:56:14,840 not competing with them and they were working for them. 909 00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:17,400 So what the new system is creating is a very much 910 00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,000 hierarchical, much more hierarchical before labour 911 00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:23,080 market in which we like the migrant workers. 912 00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:25,960 But all if you stay in that place, they have no rights, they 913 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:28,240 don't strike, they don't speak and they have no political 914 00:56:28,240 --> 00:56:32,240 voice. What does it mean to think 915 00:56:32,240 --> 00:56:39,880 globally for you? To think globally to me means to 916 00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:42,600 look at the interconnection. You know that to look at 917 00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:49,920 migration as a result of a globalised economic system, but 918 00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:55,680 also migration as the result of the circulation of dreams, 919 00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:58,560 aspiration, cultural project, etcetera. 920 00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:03,240 So but also interconnection in terms of the globalisation of 921 00:57:04,240 --> 00:57:06,520 that migrants bring. What I mean is the migrants 922 00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,680 bring in, in, in the place where they go to live. 923 00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,280 They bring what's come with their own experience, their own 924 00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,760 connection, but they also create networks that go across the 925 00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:18,400 national borders. You know, the old the ideal 926 00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:22,160 transnational transnational networks, which is really 927 00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:24,280 important because it really complicates a lot of the 928 00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:29,160 assumption around the way that binary way we tend to see within 929 00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:34,720 outsider with an insider and how also complicated some of these 930 00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:38,920 attempts at at reached bordering in a sense, you know, the one of 931 00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:43,080 the most difficult things that government historical dealt with 932 00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:46,520 with a mixed mixed race or mixed nationality families. 933 00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:50,200 Not that the fact that there is within the family unit, which is 934 00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:54,200 one of the found line from that foundation of society, 935 00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:56,960 particularly in some society, the way they think themselves, 936 00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:00,400 their ideology of society, and they've struggled to deal with 937 00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:05,640 this mixedness because it's it's in a sense in a vertical corrupt 938 00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:11,200 aspiration of for purity. It's the and so this is where 939 00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:15,280 this globe are looking at things in this interconnectedness can 940 00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:20,800 help us to to also see things from different perspective and 941 00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,760 and being able to step back and look at what's going on at the 942 00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:27,040 moment in different places as part of a larger picture. 943 00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:30,600 Thank you so much for joining us today. 944 00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:36,080 It's a pleasure. That was Nando Sigona, professor 945 00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:38,440 of International Migration and for Displacement at the 946 00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:41,680 University of Birmingham. I'd like to thank Nando for this 947 00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:44,880 discussion and for all the reflections that have come out 948 00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:49,040 of this discussion, reflections regarding the power of 949 00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,040 narratives, the politics of Brexit, the politics of the 950 00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:55,680 European Union, and everything else that we have talked about. 951 00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:59,360 I would suggest you check out some of the projects that Nando 952 00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:04,040 has worked on as one of the most recent ones is the I Claim 953 00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:07,760 project which focuses on irregularized migrant families 954 00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:09,720 in Europe. As well as his books and 955 00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:13,600 documented Migration co-authored with Roberto Gonzalez, Martha 956 00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:18,120 Franco and Anna Paputzi. As well as the book Becoming 957 00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:22,080 Adult on the Move which has been Co edited with Elaine Chess and 958 00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:25,320 Don Chatty. Thinking Borders is produced and 959 00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:28,560 hosted by ME Mariana Karakulaki and is part of the Thinking 960 00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:31,520 Global podcast series by E International Relations. 961 00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:35,800 Wow, what an interview and that's everything from us from E 962 00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:38,080 International Relations for this week. 963 00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:41,120 Don't forget to click on that little like share, subscribe or 964 00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:43,720 follow button so you can get all of our content. 965 00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:47,240 And if you do enjoy our content at International Relations, do 966 00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:49,400 remember that we are all volunteers. 967 00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:53,320 So do consider a donation and there is a link to that in the 968 00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,840 description box. Thank you so much for listening. 969 00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:59,400 Once again, music was by Material Music. 970 00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:03,400 And a massive, massive thank you to the International Relations 971 01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:06,000 podcast team. You guys rock. 972 01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:10,080 You really are amazing. OK, so I suppose that's 973 01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:12,200 everything. There's nothing else to say 974 01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:13,920 apart from I've been Kieran O'meara. 975 01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:16,320 And I've been Mariana Karakulaki. 976 01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:19,520 And together we've been thinking global.