1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:05,200 Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Thinking Global 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:09,560 podcast by E International Relations, the world's leading 3 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:13,120 Open Access website for students and scholars of international 4 00:00:13,120 --> 00:00:16,800 relations. My name is Kieran O'meara and as 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,500 ever I'm going to be your host and today I'm joined by my Co 6 00:00:20,500 --> 00:00:23,400 host and colleague, Marianna Caracolaki. 7 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,080 Hi Marianna, how you doing? Hi Kieran, I'm doing great. 8 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,240 I love being at Pizza for the second time in a row recording 9 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,400 the podcast. Fantastic. 10 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,920 So Marianna and I are coming to you from the British 11 00:00:38,160 --> 00:00:41,960 International Studies Association conference in 12 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,480 Brighton. And what we've been doing is 13 00:00:44,480 --> 00:00:48,080 we've been talking to a number of different people at all 14 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,600 different levels of international relations, 15 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:53,840 academia. We've been speaking to them 16 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,120 about their research, about the conference. 17 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:00,520 And each day this week from Wednesday, today, tomorrow, 18 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,680 Thursday and Friday, we're going to be giving you the highlights 19 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:09,280 of our time at BISA, talking to lots of different people. 20 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:14,800 First, we spoke to Maya Harrison at the University of Sussex, 21 00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:18,160 who's just finished their undergraduate degree in 22 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,680 international relations. Well done, Maya. 23 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,480 We then spoke to Doctor Carmen Chasse of Kamir's Pontifical 24 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:31,480 University in Spain. Then we spoke with Simon Rushton 25 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,880 from the University of Sheffield, who is also the BISA 26 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,840 Conference chair and who put the programme together. 27 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,200 He's going to be talking to you a little bit about the programme 28 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:46,560 before speaking with Archishman Ray Goswami, who is doing their 29 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,760 DFIL in International Relations at the University of Oxford, 30 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:55,800 Doctor David Wilcox from the University of Birmingham, Gemma 31 00:01:55,800 --> 00:02:00,360 Bird from the University of Liverpool and Bruno Selden 32 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,440 Carvalho from the University of Birmingham. 33 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,039 So just as a quick point of order, we were recording in an 34 00:02:08,039 --> 00:02:11,840 open space and the background volume varied at different 35 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,280 times. And So what you might hear is a 36 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,440 change in volume of myself, Marianna and the person being 37 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,520 interviewed depending on the volume in the background. 38 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:26,040 So just bear that in mind and don't forget to check out 39 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:30,040 international relations on social media, on ex formerly 40 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:35,480 Twitter, on LinkedIn, on Facebook, on blue sky and sub 41 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:37,800 stack. Definitely go to sub stack 42 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,160 because we're new on sub stack and so you can get everything 43 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:42,960 there. And obviously don't forget to go 44 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:47,000 to internationalrelations@ehyphenir.info 45 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,920 or E hyphen ir.org and they'll be able to find all of the 46 00:02:51,920 --> 00:02:57,240 content that we provide, plus books, interviews, articles and 47 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,000 more. OK, let's do. 48 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,440 First day at BISA. Marianna, let's roll. 49 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:11,520 Hi, I'm Maya, I'm a recent graduate from Sussex University. 50 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,200 And what was your undergraduate degree focusing on? 51 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,720 I studied international relations with a focus on 52 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,120 decolonial and feminist approaches. 53 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,080 Ah, fantastic, fantastic. OK, so you're here working with 54 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,360 the British International Studies Association today. 55 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,560 Can you tell us what you've been doing so far today? 56 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,360 And you mentioned that you were part of helping to organise the 57 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,080 Ellen Papi lecture yesterday, so tell us a little bit about that. 58 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,840 Yeah, so the Ellen Papi lecture yesterday was first of all 59 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,720 fantastic. What an incredible speaker. 60 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:49,400 The focus was on Gaza as an epicentre for these like 61 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,480 breakdown of the international system, which is a very 62 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,520 fascinating, like, you know, metaphor to put in the fact that 63 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,120 it was like an epicentre and like an earthquake in ricocheted 64 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,920 like outwards. And we, and really see like a 65 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,680 collapse of these like multilateral institutions where 66 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:10,200 the exempt, like the, the, there's an exemption of certain 67 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:15,640 groups, you know, at the kind of suppression of others, which was 68 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,760 fantastic. I helped set up the banners, 69 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:22,040 mostly. I helped organise the tech with 70 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,360 the microphones. We held a really interesting Q&A 71 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,920 and held, I think it was 9 questions that Ilan answered 72 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,920 very eloquently as well. Very, very eloquently. 73 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:33,640 I have to say it was a very, very good lecture. 74 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,600 And So what particular part of the lecture did you find 75 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,520 interesting? I really, I really enjoyed 76 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:46,200 listening to his discussions on connecting coloniality and how 77 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:51,800 how exactly the like by focusing on this as like an epicentre of 78 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,120 like systems breakdown. And he was like, this isn't just 79 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,760 a military operation. This has nothing to do with 80 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,360 land. This is a legacy of coloniality 81 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,120 and a big focus on on my dissertation was actually on 82 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,080 colonialities presence in the international systems and in 83 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,200 knowledge and by talking about epistemology and how the 84 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,560 colonisers created the laws and why that kind. 85 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,520 There's a certain YEAH exemption towards certain groups at the 86 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,480 suppression of others comes from that kind of colonial thinking. 87 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,560 Absolutely. So leading on a little bit from 88 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:25,800 there on coloniality and epistemology. 89 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,240 Tell us about your dissertation. What was your dissertation 90 00:05:28,280 --> 00:05:30,680 about? So my dissertation was called 91 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:36,320 Erotic Relations and I focused, like I said, on an anti colonial 92 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:38,320 and decolonial feminist approach. 93 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:43,720 I studied specifically the microcosm of sex work and how 94 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:47,600 understandings of sex work within IR are now are currently 95 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:54,880 limited to three main discursive topics which is autonomy like 96 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,040 human rights issues and legislation. 97 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:02,080 Which really marginalises the importance that sex work holds 98 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:06,720 as a labour group because they work within the boundaries of 99 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,600 capitalism just like anyone else. 100 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,760 We are all selling our bodies for labour, except for some 101 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,440 reason it's seen as dirty because there's a desire aspect 102 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,680 to it. And I really focused on that 103 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,080 epistemological breakdown of what desire means and what 104 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:26,720 Eroticism means to people and how that has influenced on 105 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,400 policing over borders. For example, who can hold 106 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,000 passports? I mean, before we had passports, 107 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,640 you had to have a penis. Like penis possession was a, you 108 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,360 know, a prerequisite. And why, you know, these facts 109 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:43,600 of like history has seemed so marginal in IRS understanding of 110 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,680 of world systems. Interesting, really really 111 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,160 interesting and put so eloquently as well. 112 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,200 Can I ask what are SO? Are you doing further study? 113 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:55,880 Yes, I'm doing a Masters at Sussex. 114 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,000 Continuing, yeah. And are you looking at the 115 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,920 similar themes on this? Yeah, I was introduced about, 116 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:06,040 there's a doctoral tutor called Tanya Weiss who worked at Sussex 117 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,440 throughout the three years that I was doing my undergrad, and 118 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,120 she introduced me to sexual dissidents, which isn't part of 119 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,760 the IR branch, but there's a massive, massive focus on 120 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,360 decolonial approaches and queering as well. 121 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:23,280 So my aim is to actually maybe try and introduce these topics 122 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,920 more in the IR sphere because it's still quite new and quite 123 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:28,960 fresh. So that's something that I'd be 124 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:30,480 interested in. Absolutely. 125 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:32,840 And so one very last question, because I don't want to keep 126 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,360 you, no, that's too long, but thinking kind of ahead, moving 127 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,080 on when he was talking about your, your thoughts on your 128 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,400 master studies, how do you understand how querying an IR 129 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,080 come together? So very interesting question 130 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,800 because it's also very complex. I think that one of the big 131 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,440 problems when we discuss power, you talk about power politics as 132 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,160 a state centric, you know, focus, you know, Mearshimers, 133 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,480 you know, you know, we've got Woolerstein, all of these people 134 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,160 focus on the state. Even if you're doing a 135 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,600 constructivist approach, this, at the end of the day, you're 136 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,320 still bringing everything back to the state. 137 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,360 I think queering because it is subjective and I think that's 138 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,760 the difference. There's a, there's a big focus 139 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:17,720 on IR trying to turn the isms into a scientific, you know, 140 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,120 process when you know and you want to be value free. 141 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,960 But the problem is when you take an interpretation of the world, 142 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,080 it will be value laid in any interpretation of history is a 143 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,160 value laid in approach. And so we can't avoid that. 144 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:34,880 And I think that queering as a as a theory needs to have that 145 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,320 subjective, you know, element to it. 146 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:42,080 I don't think that you, you can understand people in the world 147 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,680 from this like objective mathematical perspective. 148 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,920 And that needs to be held at the same standard as objective 149 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:53,280 empirical, you know, processes and IR needs that developments 150 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,560 and that understanding union. We're not the same as, you know, 151 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:57,880 maths or physics. And that's OK. 152 00:08:57,880 --> 00:08:59,760 And I think that's wonderful about it. 153 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:02,320 Fantastic, Maya, thank you very much. 154 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:15,500 Thank you. Hello Carmen Chess, lovely to 155 00:09:15,500 --> 00:09:18,940 have you back with us on the Thinking Global podcast. 156 00:09:19,220 --> 00:09:24,140 So what brings you to Visa? Well the I used to attend visa 157 00:09:24,140 --> 00:09:27,140 quite often when I was based in the UK and now that I went back 158 00:09:27,140 --> 00:09:29,500 home and I'm in a Spanish university, it's very nice to 159 00:09:29,500 --> 00:09:32,220 return and get to see people I wouldn't really see in Spain. 160 00:09:33,060 --> 00:09:35,460 Oh, fantastic. And what are you presenting this 161 00:09:35,460 --> 00:09:39,080 year? I'm presenting a paper on a long 162 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,080 standing research line on rediscovering classical realism, 163 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,800 especially in a very interesting panel on historical political 164 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,320 thoughts, the tomorrow on the the second day of Pisa. 165 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:56,120 And I hear you have a very interesting chair for the 166 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,520 listeners. I'm chairing that tomorrow, very 167 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:04,520 handsome chair out. So tell us a little bit about 168 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:06,240 your paper in the panel tomorrow. 169 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:12,800 I'm working yet again on the very, very unknown figure of 170 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:17,160 George Schwarzenberger and in particular with his particular 171 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,320 rivalry, dislike similarities with a more famous Hertz 172 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,680 slaughter pact and how they were suspiciously similar and as well 173 00:10:25,680 --> 00:10:28,760 at the same time how their personal life was far less 174 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:32,480 congenial. Can you unpack that a little bit 175 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,640 for us? Well, you have two Jewish 176 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,200 refugees from the more or less German Oster Hungarian empire 177 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,160 that both land in the UK the rather than in the US like 178 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:48,280 people like Hertz or Morgenthau and yet who both work in exactly 179 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:49,960 the same field in international law. 180 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,240 And you would think that they would get along that or that's 181 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:55,920 because they do have some points in agreements of look, 182 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,200 international law can work. Yes, it has problems, but so at 183 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:04,080 least they agree on that. And yet the we have around the 184 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,560 15 year odyssey of Schwarzenberger trying to get 185 00:11:06,560 --> 00:11:09,520 named the professor in a full chair and that goes absolutely 186 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:11,880 nowhere. There's back and forth of can we 187 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:15,000 get lottery packed on board and McNair and the other British 188 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,600 international lawyers and at the same time Schwarzenberger, who 189 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,360 enjoys polemicising against people, then really giving sharp 190 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,480 criticism, somewhat shooting his own foot and making life a bit 191 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,160 difficult for himself. OK. 192 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,000 So our listeners might not be very familiar with Lauterpacht 193 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,920 and Schwarzenberger. Can you summarise their thoughts 194 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,000 a little bit and how they intersect together? 195 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,440 If you start with Lauterpacht that would be fantastic. 196 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,880 Lauterpacht is probably one of the most famous jurists of the 197 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:48,440 20th century. He became very well known in the 198 00:11:48,680 --> 00:11:51,400 UK academic landscape, especially in international law. 199 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,880 Was established at Cambridge for a very long time, associated 200 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,360 with Arnold McNair. He became an ICJ judge. 201 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,520 The proposed the idea that the things would be more peaceful if 202 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:06,200 international judges had the actual power, which is not 203 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:07,520 something everyone would agree with. 204 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,920 But regardless, he defended that, argued that international 205 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,200 law it has more problems, but that it should be more powerful. 206 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,520 And Schwarzenberger officially worked in international law, 207 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,560 really only wrote about international law and a bit 208 00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:26,480 about international trade law. But he's far more cynical for a 209 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,840 lawyer, which made him quite unpopular in the British 210 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,040 international legal circles. He was known by the likes of 211 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,480 Morgenthal and Gar. He's largely regarded as a 212 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,720 classical realist. He's far more optimistic than 213 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,080 Morgenthal, for example. He defends that international 214 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:46,240 law can work if we overcome sovereignty a bit more the 215 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,720 largely forgotten since his since his death in 91. 216 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:54,040 And here we are now. Tell me a little bit more about 217 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,520 the intersection between the two. 218 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,200 Well, they both agree that international law can work and 219 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,280 that the main obstacle for it is state sovereignty. 220 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:08,240 The they diagnosed very similar problems, I think anyways, in 221 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,240 terms of the international law is law, It's not primitive law. 222 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:16,360 It's not saying that it's less developed than domestic law is 223 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,760 to mistake what it is, which is something that for instance Hans 224 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,880 Kelson and George and Hans Morgenthau the completely 225 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:25,520 disagree with. They think that it's a primitive 226 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:27,880 thing. Other people like other jurists 227 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,560 argue that it's not even law, it's just positive morality. 228 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,920 So from the get go, they're quite similar in that respect. 229 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,960 Then they have some disagreements on whether we live 230 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,720 in an international community or an International Society, how 231 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,400 unified this is. And they do differ in that line, 232 00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:47,760 but they both agree that it does work sometimes. 233 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,760 Of course, it doesn't work all the time, but anyone can see 234 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,320 that that's more or less the point lottery pack makes. 235 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,960 And the divergent is more or less in. 236 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:58,920 OK how do politics intersect with it? 237 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:00,400 Yeah. Yeah. 238 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:01,720 Can you tell us a little bit more about that? 239 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,440 How does politics intersect with it? 240 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,520 The the closer you are to more polemical aspects of 241 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,160 international law, the laws of war, where really you start 242 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,400 stepping on the interests of states, the less well it's going 243 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,360 to work. There is a very interesting, 244 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:22,200 slightly polemic article that Lauterbach wrote about EH car 245 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,040 unrealism more or less asking. But look, everyone is a realist. 246 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,080 Of course, that we all know that things are difficult in real 247 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:35,040 life, right then. So there's a slight divergent or 248 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,880 the closer you get to politics in that respect, the closer to 249 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,200 the interests of states, the less likely it is to work 250 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,240 effectively, especially with the laws of war or war crimes, 251 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,040 genocide and that stuff. They're both in complete 252 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:50,640 agreement there. Look, there's problems. 253 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,720 Of course there's problems. At the same time, then, when you 254 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,640 get to more common interests, trade, basic rules of 255 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,640 international law, why on earth do we accept that states have to 256 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,920 accept their international obligations in the 1st place? 257 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:04,880 Where does that rule or norm come from? 258 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:11,960 Then, in that respect, we get to a more solid, perhaps, vision of 259 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,440 international law. Fantastic. 260 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,720 And so tell me a little bit more, very final, final question 261 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:19,560 because I don't want to keep you. 262 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,720 Tell me a little bit more, how does this connect to your paper 263 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,080 that you're presenting tomorrow? Oh, it's effectively what they 264 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:29,320 look at at the paper. Perhaps the given the limits of 265 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,360 a paper, then I could do it in much more. 266 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,800 If I had 20,000 words, I could do it in much more detail. 267 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,520 Of course, the first half is the biographical, the biographical 268 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,440 elements of the of both men, where they came from, their 269 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,360 families. The laughter park, for instance, 270 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:50,360 was practised, was practised Judaism, whereas 271 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,240 Schwartzenberger converted to Protestant denomination. 272 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,320 I was a bit more liberal in that respect. 273 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,880 And then where they were based academically and their 274 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:04,000 particular rivalry and more personal story to them, and then 275 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,000 their thought contrasting their thoughts, similarities, 276 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,200 differences. Fantastic. 277 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:12,720 Doctor Carmaches, thank you so much for joining us on The 278 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:13,800 Thinking Global. Podcast. 279 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:28,240 Thank you for having me. OK, so I'm sat here with Simon 280 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,200 Rushton, who is the conference chair. 281 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:31,840 Hi Simon, how are you doing today? 282 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,840 Really. Well, it's great to be here at a 283 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,320 really lively lunchtime session on the first day of the 284 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:39,360 conference. Fantastic. 285 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,560 So very first question I'd like to ask you about is your sort of 286 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,840 responsible for putting together the programme? 287 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,120 How did you do that? Fortunately I'm not alone in 288 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,120 doing that. We have an awful lot of of help 289 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,320 from the visa staff of course, but especially from the the 290 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,800 leads of all the different visa working groups. 291 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:04,359 So essentially the way that the programme is put together is we 292 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:08,880 open for submissions and and people from all around the world 293 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:13,000 submit papers or in some cases submit panels and round tables. 294 00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:19,520 In the first stage, our working group leads put together those 295 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,440 individual papers into coherent panels. 296 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,880 They then decide which of those panels and which of those papers 297 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,520 are are strong enough to be accepted onto the conference 298 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:32,680 programme and then they recommend those to me as 299 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,880 conference chair. So my job really becomes 300 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,200 bringing together these fantastic panels that are 301 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:43,520 working group leads have put together and deciding how many 302 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:45,240 of those we can fit on the programme. 303 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,320 So we ask our working groups to prioritise those and we try and 304 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:53,360 get as many people and as much of the exciting research, the 305 00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:55,800 opportunity to be presented here as we possibly can. 306 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,080 Absolute and how? How do you know how many panels 307 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,800 there are this year? We've got about 400 panels this 308 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,440 year overall. So it's a huge number of huge 309 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,560 number of really exciting presentations. 310 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,720 So it's, it's been, it's the biggest visa ever, which is 311 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:14,800 really nice. Last year in Belfast was the 312 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,920 biggest ever and we've gone one better here in Brighton. 313 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,280 So it's great and really I think shows the health of the 314 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,480 organisation, but just also the fantastic research is being done 315 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:25,880 and and presented here. Absolutely. 316 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,280 And you should be so proud as well to be conference chair of 317 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,200 the largest piece of conference yet as. 318 00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:32,800 Well, yeah, I don't take any credit for it being the largest, 319 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:37,800 but but it's really a nice problem to have when you have so 320 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,200 much amazing work and people wanting to present that here and 321 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,960 seeing the value in presenting their work here to their 322 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:45,760 colleagues from profession is is great. 323 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,800 And if you don't mind me asking, what's your background in? 324 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,600 I don't mind at all. So, so my background is in 325 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,600 international relations, but I work in particular on the global 326 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,360 politics of health. So I've been a member of the 327 00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:01,920 Global health working group of Visa for for many years and 328 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,920 since it first began, for the last four years I've been one of 329 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,800 the Visa trustees and and it fell to me this year to be the 330 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,600 programme chair. Fantastic. 331 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:13,880 So let's you were saying that you've been part of the global 332 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:15,360 health working group for a little while. 333 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,400 Let's talk a little bit about the working groups. 334 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,000 So there's quite a lot of diversity in relation. 335 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,040 Do you want to talk a little bit about that? 336 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,120 Yeah. I mean, anybody who looks on the 337 00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:27,640 Beezer website will see. I think we have something like 338 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:32,640 30 working groups in total ranging all the way from war 339 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,280 studies through to critical approaches to to world politics. 340 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:41,200 So a vast, vast array which really I think reflects what a 341 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,160 broad and diverse discipline International Studies is, and 342 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,600 really just the different kinds of work that are happening in 343 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,760 the discipline with different empirical focuses, different 344 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,920 theoretical approaches, different sets of methods. 345 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,120 You know, it's a hugely diverse discipline. 346 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:02,160 And I think one of the nice things about our working group 347 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:07,280 system in Visa is hopefully. The vast majority of people can 348 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,320 find a home, they can find like minded people who are interested 349 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,000 in in the same area of International Studies as them 350 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,120 and this visa conference is a great opportunity for those 351 00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:19,240 people all to come together. Absolutely. 352 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:23,160 I think that so I can I Co convene the contemporary 353 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:24,880 research, international political theory. 354 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,560 I almost forgot the name of the workshop, and it's so nice to be 355 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,280 able to just have the space to talk to people that research 356 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,240 even remotely, something similar that you do. 357 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,280 And I think Visa does it so well at bringing us all together at 358 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,240 different things and events like this. 359 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,880 Right now we're set in the exhibition hall with scholars of 360 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,000 all different kinds in front of us here, which it makes it all 361 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,400 so worth it. So Visa has a strong 362 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,920 relationship with early career researchers as well. 363 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,600 How has that been facilitated through this programme? 364 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:57,400 Yeah. So I think it's a really 365 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:02,240 important part of Visa's mission is being a space where early 366 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,160 career researchers can come together, present their work. 367 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,120 And, and I hope my fellow professors will forgive me for 368 00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:11,840 saying this, but I think it's really often the case that those 369 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,160 at the earliest stages of their career are doing the most 370 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,240 exciting and cutting edge research. 371 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,440 And I see that in almost every panel I go to. 372 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,560 I think here I'd like to particularly give a shout out 373 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,880 for these as Postgraduate Network, who I think do an 374 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:30,000 absolutely amazing job of helping to make postgraduate 375 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,400 researchers feel welcome at Visa. 376 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,000 They had their own reception last night and a gathering for 377 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,560 people here for the first time because they understand, and we 378 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,200 understand that it can be quite daunting to come to your first 379 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:47,120 conference and present your work to people in the audience who 380 00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:49,800 you've heard of and read their work. 381 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:51,240 It can be quite a daunting thing. 382 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,600 So I think a big part of what we try and do is make those people 383 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,000 feel just as welcome as people like me who've been coming for 384 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,120 the last 25 years or, or even longer. 385 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,240 And I think it's that mix, right? 386 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,280 I think what we look for in panels is diversity of all 387 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,760 different kinds. And, and one of the things that 388 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,280 we've been encouraging our working groups to do is, is to 389 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,440 include in that diversity of career stage. 390 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,600 You know, and I think having more senior scholars presenting 391 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,040 alongside earlier career people is just makes for for a great 392 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,480 experience for everybody. Yeah, it's, it's fantastic. 393 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,480 I mean, I can say in my experience of this, I'm on a 394 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,600 panel tomorrow. I'm a second year PhD student 395 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,880 and I know that our discussant is Cornelia Mavari was a big 396 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,680 name in international relations. So I, I think, Oh well, to think 397 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,000 that someone whose name I've known for a long time is reading 398 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,960 my paper, that's both daunting and amazing at the same time, 399 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:44,480 right? That's, I think the the 400 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,160 experience that this the conference gives. 401 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:48,360 And which is? Fantastic. 402 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,080 And for me, you know, being a discussant on the panel just 403 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,680 after lunch today, it's been amazing reading the work of 404 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,160 people whose work I wasn't previously familiar with but 405 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,960 have such amazing research to share. 406 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:02,880 So it's a real privilege, I think, Yeah. 407 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,040 Now just on the postgraduate network, if I have listeners 408 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,120 that want to join the network, how can they do that? 409 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,880 If they go on the Beezer website they can find the details of the 410 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,080 Postgraduate Network and get in touch with them and and they can 411 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,280 be added to their mailing list. The Postgraduate Network 412 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,920 organise their own conference each year, but they also, as I 413 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,400 said earlier, play a really key role in in making postgraduate 414 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,040 scholars feel at home here at the main visa conference. 415 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,000 And one last question for you, we've interviewed one or two of 416 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,400 the undergrads that are actually working with Visa today. 417 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,720 And because a few of them have just finished their their 418 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,880 studies at Sussex and writing and we wanted to get them some, 419 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:43,960 give them some time to talk about their dissertation. 420 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,280 Fantastic. Now I know that Visa is 421 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,320 beginning to kind of move towards having undergraduate 422 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,000 networks as well with the British Foreign Policy Group. 423 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:53,360 Could you talk a little bit about that? 424 00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:55,280 Yeah. So that's a relatively 425 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,640 relatively recent thing for Biza. 426 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:03,040 And you know, I think we're really trying to be the the 427 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,400 International Studies Association for everybody who's 428 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:06,840 working in International Studies. 429 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,120 And that of course involves people who are established 430 00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:17,040 academics, involves postgraduate researchers doing PhDs and so 431 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,360 on. But we're also really aware that 432 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,680 it involves undergraduate and and masters level students. 433 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,960 They're part of our intellectual community here and part of our 434 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,600 discipline. For a long time we've done 435 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,760 particular events aimed at undergraduates. 436 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,960 So for example, a climate simulation event, which has 437 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,400 happened for several years. So we're not entirely new to 438 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,760 working with undergraduates, but we're trying to to boost that 439 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,560 area of our work through the undergraduate network. 440 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,600 And so really again, make them see the value of being part of 441 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,240 Visa as an organisation. They may well not be at the 442 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:54,840 stage where they're ready to present things at the 443 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,400 conference, but even to come to the conference and and see 444 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,240 what's happening, to meet people to get an understanding of, of 445 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,520 what research in this, in this discipline looks like, It's a 446 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,840 fantastic opportunity. Absolutely, and it's also 447 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,200 important to say that the undergraduate rate is much 448 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,400 cheaper than all the other rates. 449 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,880 So if you're listening and you want to come to Manchester next 450 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,400 year, it's definitely worth it. That's great. 451 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,680 And I also just wanted to to pick up on on the point you made 452 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,200 about the undergraduate volunteers that we've got here 453 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,440 from from Sussex and Brighton. You know, this conference 454 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,800 couldn't run without them. So yeah, we're really grateful 455 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,360 to them for all of their work and directing people to rooms 456 00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:36,480 and solving problems and all of those things often unseen behind 457 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,000 the scenes, which which really make the conference run well. 458 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,280 Absolutely, Simon, thank you very much for coming on the 459 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,080 Thinking Global podcast. It's been great to have you 460 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:44,200 with. Us, it's been a pleasure. 461 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:58,310 Thank you. Now, so please tell us, tell our 462 00:25:58,310 --> 00:26:01,470 listeners who you are and your affiliation, right? 463 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,680 My name is Archishwan Ray Goswami, I'm a first year Dfal 464 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,000 International Relations candidate at the University of 465 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,960 Oxford and my research focuses on intelligence diplomacy. 466 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,560 Interesting. So tell us what has brought you 467 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,400 to Visa well. I mean, I've heard about visa 468 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,800 for, you know, the past few years, ever since I was an 469 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,440 undergrad previously at Kings, then, you know, doing my M fil 470 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,640 at Oxford. So Visa was definitely one of, 471 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,280 you know, the conferences that I want to check off my bucket list 472 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,640 before I leave the university. And yeah, I found it to be an 473 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,160 incredible opportunity to just share my research, engage with 474 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:42,200 like minded people, you know, find, you know, speak to people 475 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,440 in the space of security studies and international politics more 476 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,240 broadly. Yeah, it's just an 477 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,760 intellectually rich environment and I'm very happy to be here. 478 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,120 Oh fantastic. Well we're happy to have you 479 00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:54,920 here. So today is obviously lunch of 480 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,120 the very first day on the Wednesday. 481 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,080 Have you been to any panels yet at? 482 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,000 All. Well, yes, I, I presented on a 483 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:06,480 panel earlier today and this was on European security. 484 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,560 I was talking about a paper that I've written on Intra EU 485 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,600 intelligence liaison, which is a case study that I'm looking at 486 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,520 in my thesis. And yeah, besides that I 487 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,920 attended a panel on space power and astropolitics, which I found 488 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,560 fascinating. It's got very little to do with 489 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,240 my doctoral research, but as someone interested in 490 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,880 intelligence studies, I just found the discussion around 491 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,600 things like ISR and satellite technology and the role of 492 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,040 commercial actors in modern intelligence fascinating. 493 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:36,880 Interesting. Fantastic. 494 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,320 OK, so why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about 495 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,640 your research, right? Well, as I said earlier, I'm 496 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,280 looking at intelligence diplomacy. 497 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,040 So what that essentially means is when you've got intelligence 498 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:53,760 actors using their specialised skill sets and you know, most 499 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,880 often the relationships that they have to engage as principal 500 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,400 actors in any form of diplomatic engagement. 501 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,440 So that refers specifically I sort of scope, condition my 502 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,400 focus to the use of clandestine diplomacy and intelligence 503 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,480 liaison. So clandestine diplomacy 504 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,760 essentially means when you've got intelligence actors running 505 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,200 back channels with, you know, actors who you'd rather not be 506 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,920 seen to be speaking publicly with, you know, embarrassing, 507 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,040 you know, bad for PR and intelligence liaison as well, 508 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,760 just intelligence sharing between, you know, partners, 509 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:28,920 occasionally adversaries and competitors. 510 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:34,160 And I look at three, my basic research looks at the balance 511 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,400 between between normative conventions of state craft and 512 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,960 material outcomes in the pursuit of intelligence diplomacy. 513 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,080 The normative conventions do vary, but it's the principal 514 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,080 idea is this, that there is an intent or, you know, an 515 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,520 effective relationship at play within clandestine diplomacy 516 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,480 with an intelligence liaison in, you know, various permutations 517 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,400 and combinations and material outcomes essentially refers to 518 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,520 the geopolitical objectives that you really want by, you know, 519 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,920 engaging actors through clandestine diplomacy or sharing 520 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,520 intelligence with partners. So I'm looking at 3 case studies 521 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,640 and figuring out the balance between these two factors across 522 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,800 each of them. The first of the first case 523 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,040 study I'm looking at is Israel's use of clandestine diplomacy 524 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,680 from the 1950s to the 1970s as part of the periphery doctrine. 525 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,760 So during this time, Israel, Israel engaged, used its 526 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,120 intelligence services to engage with states that it was 527 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,280 diplomatically recognised and diplomatically didn't, you know? 528 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,760 And the assumption, the normative assumption that you'd 529 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,400 make in a case like this is that, well, clandestine 530 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,640 diplomacy would essentially work in a case where you don't have 531 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,880 diplomatic recognition at play simply because, well, you need 532 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,240 to keep things concealed. And intelligence actors, you 533 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,840 know, play a useful role there. But that's that wasn't 534 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,840 particularly the case because you see, Israel still used the 535 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,400 intelligence services to engage with states even where it did 536 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,440 share diplomatic recognition. Yeah. 537 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,160 So that's there's a there's an incongruity there between the 538 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,720 normative outcomes and the material for normative 539 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,400 conventions and material outcomes that Israel wanted. 540 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,960 And in the other two case studies, I'm looking at intra EU 541 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,520 intelligence liaison and Anglo Soviet intelligence sharing 542 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,320 during the Second World War. Now in each of those, again, 543 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,040 there is a gap between normative conventions and material 544 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,840 outcomes. In the case of Europe, you have 545 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,200 European integral supranational cohesion or regional 546 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,000 integration, that which is the guiding force, as we all know, 547 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,040 behind different aspects of European governance or EU 548 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,240 governance and state craft and intelligence liaisons, no 549 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,360 exception. I mean, it does feature at the 550 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,680 same time you've got informal intelligence sharing happening 551 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,800 bilaterally or minilaterally, but outside the confines of EU 552 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,440 governance, driven by the pursuit of informational 553 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,720 advantage, right? I mean, what do intelligence 554 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,360 agencies really gain from an operational standpoint through 555 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,280 the intelligence that they share with partners within a block? 556 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,120 So again, there's a bit of an incongruity there, and I'm 557 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,560 trying to explore that, unpack it and see how it works. 558 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,640 And finally, in case of angular Soviet intelligence liaison, 559 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,000 well, you certainly had these two actors who were formally 560 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,960 bound on paper in not just an alliance, but an intelligence 561 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:13,720 alliance. I mean, there are documents in 562 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,280 the National Archives where they clearly stipulate what their 563 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,400 mandates of, you know, of on intelligence were, what they 564 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,840 would share, where they would coordinate operational 565 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:23,800 requirement or operational needs on. 566 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,120 At the same time, there was this deep undercurrent of 567 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,720 ideological, there was an ideological clash between these 568 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,280 two actors. So it's not that, you know, 569 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,480 Hitler came onto the scene and two decades of hostility just 570 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,040 dissipated, right? I mean, and that factored into 571 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,240 how intelligence was shared and occasionally how the two actors 572 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,080 spied on each other and the undercurrent of tension that was 573 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,480 at play. So yeah, long story, Long story 574 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,200 short, I'm looking at the balance between a principle, as 575 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,200 in, you know, something that binds these actors together in 576 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,360 an effective way, and the material informational gains 577 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:00,840 that they make from intelligence sharing. 578 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,840 Interesting, interesting. Thank you so much. 579 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,360 And so you presented the paper here whilst you were here. 580 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,240 It was. You have presented me a paper. 581 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,800 Yeah, don't trust. It that is right, I am 582 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,400 presenting a paper. I have presented a paper on 583 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,320 intra EU intelligence liaison just earlier this morning and 584 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,360 which is essentially A threadbare version I should add 585 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,360 of a chapter that I'm writing for my thesis. 586 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,040 Now, the idea here is I present my initial findings and 587 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:34,120 arguments, get feedback from others and build on those as I 588 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,880 conduct my primary research and, you know, expand what I have 589 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,880 into a case study and hopefully send it to a journal at some 590 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:42,240 point. Yeah, I don't know. 591 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,640 Always be welcome and have you did you receive good feedback 592 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,840 this morning? I would hope so. 593 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:55,080 I mean, I, I did sense that it was well appreciated, which was 594 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,600 very gratifying. And you know, I really enjoyed 595 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,280 the I really appreciated the feedback I got and the gently 596 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,680 positive reception to the paper. Fantastic. 597 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,600 And before I let you go, do you want to tell the listeners about 598 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,040 your tie? Oh, yes, I am wearing an. 599 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,120 I mean, you said this. It's a rather natty tie with, 600 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,360 you know, mini anchors sort of dotted all over it. 601 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,840 But it's an Indian Navy tie given to me by a friend. 602 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,560 But I'm very happy to be wearing it in a maritime setting such as 603 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,520 this and Brighton. In Brighton, yeah, Yes, I 604 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,720 thought you were going to be talking about maritime law. 605 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:33,880 Well, The funny thing is there is, of course, Naval 606 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,280 intelligence news on. We can get into that, maybe in 607 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,960 another interview. But yeah, but you know, I won't 608 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,520 repeat myself at Bosiam. Thank you so much and thank you 609 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:44,560 so much for coming on the podcast. 610 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,080 Possibly Hope you have a fantastic time at Lisa. 611 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:48,560 Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Kieran. 612 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:04,120 Hi, what's your name? So I'm David Wilcox, Professor 613 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,600 of Education, University of Birmingham, and I'm also the 614 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,639 graduate student representative for the Diplomatic Studies 615 00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:13,760 section of International Studies Association. 616 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,159 Very long. So nice to have you here, Dave. 617 00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:21,000 I obviously know you because we started our PhD together. 618 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,159 So what are you working on and what are you doing in Pisa? 619 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,719 So I'm working on a couple of different things at the moment 620 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,480 and presenting on those things here being said. 621 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,560 So working on doing my thesis books I was presenting this 622 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:41,920 morning on disposition struck cross see those in strong page 623 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:50,440 studies and then presenting some of the papers later in the week. 624 00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:56,199 One of them talking about playful learning and you said 625 00:34:56,199 --> 00:35:05,240 Lego in teaching complex. How can we use Lego in teaching 626 00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:08,760 IR? So this is for some sort of 627 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,880 yeah, context. This is a project that I've been 628 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,280 working on with Janita Fontana, University of Birmingham. 629 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:22,920 So you need to open first sort of using Lego in Masters modules 630 00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:28,880 sort of getting students to yeah, mess around with Lego in 631 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:34,600 terms of so you have a little activity that was build a warm 632 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:39,280 water and effectively getting the students to with Lego free 633 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,160 aids. I thought conceptually would 634 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:47,160 think about their hearts that they build having to get their 635 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:48,960 bottles or reflect on them thinking. 636 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:53,920 So some people the pieces more over the place to represent 637 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,760 construction or some people in the buildings, doors hanging 638 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:00,880 off. Some people have organised the 639 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,480 pieces of Duke pullers to separate to represent different 640 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:09,920 conflict parties. And so, yeah, part of that 641 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:15,640 should be to get some funding from to actually turn this sort 642 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:24,480 of, yeah, activities into some pedagogical research around Lego 643 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:26,920 teaching. So that's sort of. 644 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,600 And so we've then had this one activity and then been 645 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,360 developing some other. So we're very much thinking in 646 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,040 the UK context where we've got 50 minutes seminars, we're not 647 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:42,800 going very long with students. How can we use Lego and playful 648 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:48,360 learning approach to really get as much out of as students as 649 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,200 possible or in terms of helping them? 650 00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:01,120 And how do students receive this kind of methods? 651 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:08,560 So students, so we surveyed well master students and we surveyed 652 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,320 some other students that we've done these activities with 653 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,520 course other years on the most part, they're quite receptive to 654 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:17,680 it. Some of them it's the the fact 655 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,760 that it's very different for some of them. 656 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:28,480 They quite like that. It's sort of yeah, creative, 657 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,440 it's engaging a part of their range of they're not used to 658 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,400 engaging in classroom. Some of them found that it was 659 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:39,680 quite positive in terms of giving parts of their brain rest 660 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,840 from the heavy content while still actively doing something. 661 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:48,480 So rather than having a second 15 minute coffee, you're still 662 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:53,240 getting to do activity engage with well, but it was activating 663 00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:57,920 a different part of their actually the brain thinking 664 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:04,480 that's with normal. There are some who they like it 665 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,760 because they're interesting Lego. 666 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,160 They collect Lego themselves. They've got younger siblings 667 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,480 who've got Lego for some wrong insurance students, their 668 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,400 children play with Lego. You know, for international 669 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:20,680 students, it's a problem where of or where plastic book, 670 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:25,880 granted other brands available and they go particularly at this 671 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:27,920 point we're talking about it's a little bit plastic bridge. 672 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,000 But so some people like it for that. 673 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:35,880 There are some students who are sort of sceptical about it. 674 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,280 But one of the sort of first experience that I had when I 675 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:44,440 last did this activities, one of the students who was definitely 676 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,880 one of those people who was like, I don't know why I'm used 677 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,640 to do that. Sort of at the end of the module 678 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,080 we're assigning. Oh, I kind of see it because 679 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,920 when we were in a classroom, then we'll talk to another, you 680 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:57,800 bring out some Lego and put it on the table. 681 00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:59,680 Everybody's starting to change game. 682 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,720 So I think there is this image for some people and scholars 683 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:10,480 might was category who think it's sort of fantalizing, but 684 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:16,600 I've retorted that as well. Lego since 20/10/2011 have 685 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,840 actually been using what we call Lego Serious Play With. 686 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,760 So the project sector says with business leaders to do this sort 687 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,000 of activity. So if they can do it in that 688 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:31,520 sector and see that's got value I think to as well. 689 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:36,040 And people have such towns. But what the means Nature have 690 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,400 been doing has been trying to bring it into politics in the 691 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:43,200 International Studies, where we haven't had much if any day. 692 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,880 So I know that you have you're presenting this paper here, but 693 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,000 you have also presented it elsewhere. 694 00:39:55,040 --> 00:40:01,120 How do academics receive the paper of using Lego in in the 695 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:02,680 classroom? Yeah. 696 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,840 So I think so we presented. So the presentation I'm doing 697 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,760 sort of tomorrow is one that I've done and Judy has also done 698 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,520 other conferences, which is very much presenting the project. 699 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,480 And then we've had some outputs from that still got some outputs 700 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,200 coming. So it's called about chances of 701 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:26,680 stuff hardline for the future. Generally they generally our 702 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,240 presentation tends to end up on teaching and learning panels 703 00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:34,560 with other people who are using sort of different ways of 704 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,920 teaching, whether it's simulations and board games or 705 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:43,480 other sort of ways of sort of engaging sort of innovative 706 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,920 teaching. So amongst those people, it's 707 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,720 quite well received. Some people can see an overlap 708 00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:52,640 with some of the other elements that they do. 709 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,960 A lot of people, particularly if they're older children go, oh, 710 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:02,840 I've got home or I've got so I can actually try have a go. 711 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,280 So with those people, it's probably overseas. 712 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,280 Obviously there are other people who probably got in the teaching 713 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:14,320 and learning space. There are virtual sorts of 714 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,800 cautious recognitions about its value. 715 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,800 And I think that's where the importance of sort of the work 716 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:26,320 that Judita been doing is to show in case this is just a good 717 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:32,600 ID, there's actual really strong pedagogical value backed up by 718 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,920 the literature. It's backed up by surveying the 719 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,920 students and students telling us why they like it, why it's 720 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,880 helping positive so that we can, yeah, make them pass more. 721 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,760 Not why everybody should use it all the time. 722 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,440 That's not what pushing and that's not what I would argue. 723 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,720 But to sort of say in the repertoire of tools that we have 724 00:41:51,720 --> 00:41:56,600 available to make our teaching engaging in it and save Lego and 725 00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:03,440 plastic or the brands it's worth 1 this is how to do it and how 726 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:09,880 to major effective. And I have one last question. 727 00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:14,400 During a period where AI dominates everything, do you 728 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:20,640 think these forms of these methods of teaching will inspire 729 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,280 students to engage in more depth with their studies? 730 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,880 I definitely hope so. I definitely think particularly 731 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,760 in in the context of AII think there is A and we see in the 732 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:36,600 classroom gesture this as well. I'm not sure because of 733 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,720 technology in prison AI, because some of the things happening, 734 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:44,360 yeah, it's getting more and more difficult to get students to 735 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,920 engage with those, to get each other, talk to one another, to 736 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:53,400 have those simple soft skills. So we all need daily lives, work 737 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,680 by social, and we're losing that with the password. 738 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:02,640 And so I think Lego, some of the activities to do with Lego is 739 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:07,040 reinforcing those soft skills, getting people to talk to one 740 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,760 another, to build models, to play with Briggs, to sort of 741 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:15,560 engage creativity and imagination and amongst other 742 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:19,440 tools that are out there keeping that, you know, baseline of 743 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:28,200 those skill was to balance some of those knowledge, particularly 744 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,760 I think in this context where. More and more. 745 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,240 I'm pleased to think about, OK, what skills are students 746 00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:37,480 leaving? Well, we can think about the 747 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,120 very technical but actually social skills. 748 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:45,080 How do we get how to talk about those soft skills? 749 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,960 You've said to be obviously thinking how we can maintain 750 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:57,320 because of the same students on that coming with skills. 751 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:02,560 Some are increasingly just saying people it's the person 752 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:06,720 next to you talk about this. They don't want they don't want 753 00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:10,600 to do how to do different so we can find a way of bringing that 754 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,480 in. I think it's where they go. 755 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,680 It's a couple of different aspects that I think it's. 756 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,600 That all sounds incredible. Thank you for talking to us. 757 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:20,720 Thank you. Very much. 758 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:34,800 Awesome. Hi, can you introduce? 759 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,960 Yourself. Hi, my name is Doctor Gemma Bert 760 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:38,880 Juan and I'm based at the University of Liverpool. 761 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,520 So what is your research on and what are you presenting at the 762 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,040 base of this year? I worked on audience 763 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:52,120 displacement and solidarity activism and I predominantly 764 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:57,600 going to bring US and Ibiza. I'm talking about how we think 765 00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,320 about border than I are with you in fact. 766 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,800 And then later on in the week, I'm talking about the island of 767 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,200 Laros and it's history as a place that people have been 768 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:11,200 peripherized to different communities as if people. 769 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:17,200 So with the dictatorship, people who found themselves in mental 770 00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:19,280 health services, and then people on the move. 771 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,720 There's one particular area of an island that people have been 772 00:45:21,720 --> 00:45:24,240 moved to. So that's one of the Greek ends 773 00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:26,480 that are a very good thing on. And then the other one is the 774 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,840 island of Samos, which is where I do a lot of displacement and 775 00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,200 solidarity activism. And for that I've got an 776 00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:38,560 exhibition actually in the East Bar here and sport place on the 777 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,040 way. The store is from the island of 778 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:44,200 Samos and it looks at the complexities of that particular 779 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,640 space as a border region and the different communities that have 780 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,480 formed different form of solidarity, some of the 781 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,800 challenges and actually the complexity of being a really 782 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:57,720 beautiful Greek island. It's famous of tourists but also 783 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,440 have community there that has been thrown off a lot, an 784 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:05,040 earthquake that has found a way to still show solidarity but 785 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,640 that that is often gets diminished and downplayed. 786 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,840 And then also having 2 refugee councillor 1 which was a 787 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:13,480 reception and identification centre. 788 00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:17,040 It was well who within the last 10 years there was actually a 789 00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,720 free dating plan as well. But the two that people spoke 790 00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:23,680 about are the reception and identification centre and then 791 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:27,360 that closing and being closed in control, which was actually the 792 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,760 first in Greece and that was used as a testing ground re 793 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,440 bordering would kind of move towards that most closed system. 794 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,080 And the exhibition which is audio as well. 795 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:42,920 So it's photo, photographs with audio commentary tries to deal 796 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:47,840 with those complexities things. This is going to be a more 797 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,520 methodological question. What can we learn from using 798 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,760 photography Audio, generally multimedia in migration research 799 00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,280 and border research. So I think it's a more 800 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,400 accessible form of storytelling. I think one thing that really 801 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,680 must to me is that when you do advocacy as well as research 802 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,200 that we think about how to pull people in rather than 803 00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:08,960 necessarily pull people out. We've done a lot of trying to 804 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,400 pull people out and it's very ineffective because it builds 805 00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:14,040 these walls between different people. 806 00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:16,920 But actually effective storytelling through 807 00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,840 photography, through kind of audio where people tell their 808 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,200 own stories, it's quite an effective way of thinking about 809 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:26,160 being within a particular environment. 810 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:28,800 So the one thing about the exhibition and actually any 811 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,040 photographs they take is that they don't have any people in 812 00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:32,600 them. So they're pictures of the 813 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:34,400 spaces and places that I'm talking about. 814 00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:36,800 South Camps, meaning it's the sensors. 815 00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,000 And what that does is it pushes people to think about their own 816 00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:44,320 and what it would be like to be in that situation, rather than 817 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:48,160 kind of thinking about and uttering other people who have 818 00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:50,520 found themselves in that situation to kind of challenge 819 00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:52,960 their own kind of assumptions about where they sit within that 820 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:57,160 contest and how we think about that going forward. 821 00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,600 And I think that's a really important aspect in what we can 822 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:02,640 do in scholarship, but particularly activist 823 00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,960 scholarship. And how would you explain 824 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,920 activist scholarship? What's the aim? 825 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,800 What's can we do it? Activist scholarship is about 826 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,840 recognising children, it's about looking at the world and 827 00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:18,680 thinking about what we can do with the platform. 828 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:23,480 And that might be speaking to students in classrooms we talked 829 00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:27,320 about on our panel this morning. It might be using non 830 00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,640 traditional platforms and it might also be writing after them 831 00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:34,360 articles that kind of challenge historical understandings of how 832 00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:38,320 we do research. So whether that is who gets to 833 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,920 be a knowledge producer, what that looks like, whether it is 834 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:45,920 thinking about research as politics and recognising that 835 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,640 there's a politics of everything that we do and like. 836 00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,040 That notion of subjectivity is not necessarily something that 837 00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:53,280 should be bad. It's something that we should 838 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:58,160 recognise because any decision we make is political, any 839 00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,160 decision we make is subjective. If we are writing questions, 840 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:05,200 there's already some of us within that and using that as a 841 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:09,600 kind of think about how world looks and maybe how we can live 842 00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:13,760 in it differently. And if you reflect on your 843 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:17,960 experience participating at Visa, what have you gained as an 844 00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,680 early career and as a mid career? 845 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:24,760 You can say mid career it's fine. 846 00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:29,200 I recognise where I've got to. No, I think that's actually 847 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:30,800 something that I have been thinking more about. 848 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:34,280 I've been looking around sort of and recognising how amazing 849 00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,600 junior scholars there are, and I've been going to panels today. 850 00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:40,480 Obviously this is day one and just hearing about these 851 00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,560 phenomenal PhD projects and just being really inspired by the 852 00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:48,760 next generation, that really does make me feel cold. 853 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:51,200 But actually being really inspired by what people are 854 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,360 doing and the creative ways in which they're doing it. 855 00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,960 Academia is a really difficult place at the moment for various 856 00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:00,280 different reasons that we all know about, but actually there 857 00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,600 are still people doing phenomenal work and phenomenal 858 00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,320 political work as well. And I think it's really 859 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,400 important to celebrate that and to recognise it and to offer 860 00:50:08,720 --> 00:50:10,760 support and avenues the best way we can. 861 00:50:11,240 --> 00:50:13,240 And Visa has always been really good for me for that. 862 00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:18,040 They they many, many years ago was successful in getting one of 863 00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:22,240 their early career some grants and that actually funded the 864 00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:25,760 first set of large ethnographic field work that I did that 865 00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:28,360 enabled me to write the book that I'm just finishing now. 866 00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:32,960 So actually it has been an incredibly generative and also 867 00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:35,280 generous space. And I just think that we know 868 00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,400 we're duty to make make sure that keeps happening. 869 00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:43,000 And then we're thinking about to support really interesting work 870 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,880 going forward and not to be Co opted into kind of neoliberal 871 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:50,920 institutions or take ways of thinking that are about the ref 872 00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:54,560 or the care for the tail or whatever the three letter 873 00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:59,360 acronym for, but actually about doing really digital works that 874 00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:00,880 can have a real impact on the world. 875 00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,160 And that actually leads me to my last question. 876 00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:09,960 How can critical border studies exist inside the neoliberal 877 00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:14,360 university? I think this is something I was 878 00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,920 thinking about this morning. I think it's about recognising 879 00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,160 that we are not the archiving arm of the state. 880 00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:23,720 We do not have to be the kind of collectors of history of one 881 00:51:23,720 --> 00:51:27,680 particular way of doing things. Actually it is our role to 882 00:51:27,720 --> 00:51:33,320 pretty and to think about how systems function and who they 883 00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:35,640 function for. And that is the purpose of 884 00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:38,320 academia. And whether or not we think 885 00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:43,160 about it in different ways, that actually underpins how we how we 886 00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:45,480 should be engaging. And I think it can be really 887 00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:46,800 challenging. I think it can be really 888 00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,080 challenging to play yourself an activist scholar as well. 889 00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:54,960 And I think there is a privilege in being that enables me to get 890 00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:59,360 away with that that isn't necessarily offered to junior 891 00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,360 roles. And I'm incredibly impressed by 892 00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:04,600 people doing anything. And I just say like, this is 893 00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,040 absolutely what I'm doing. This is why I'm doing it. 894 00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,440 I think it's about finding kind of collectives and people that 895 00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:16,360 you stand in solidarity with, that you stand to benefit from 896 00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,320 being in conversation with, and that you look to support one 897 00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:20,600 another. And I think we should do that 898 00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,880 and build these kind of critical spaces where we can work 899 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:31,880 together and use that to kind of challenge the world that we're 900 00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:33,960 currently in. Because I think critical blood 901 00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:37,440 studies masses more than ever, actually understanding the 902 00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:40,440 bordering is not just a line on the platform that it expands 903 00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,600 partly on that it's something that's incredibly necessary. 904 00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,360 So it's really important that we continue to build these faces. 905 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,280 And anyways. Thank you so much. 906 00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:07,480 Hi, can you tell me your name and your affiliation, your 907 00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:10,640 research? Yes, my name is Brenner Salton 908 00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:12,360 Carvalho. Bit of a mouthful. 909 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:17,600 I have just finished my PhD at the University of Birmingham and 910 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:22,080 my research is basically a theoretical framework to 911 00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:25,800 understand how insecurity develops in world politics. 912 00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:29,040 And I have to say, I'm very glad to have you in the podcast 913 00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:31,000 because we are in the same department. 914 00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,600 That's true. I absolutely love your research 915 00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:36,400 and we work together with pitching undergraduate. 916 00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:40,400 So really happy to have you. It's my pleasure. 100% Marion, 917 00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:44,720 thanks for having me here. So tell us a bit about your 918 00:53:44,720 --> 00:53:49,080 research and then about what you're doing here in Visa. 919 00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:53,560 Yes, thank you. Well, my research well is within 920 00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:57,800 the this subfield in sorry in international relations called 921 00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:01,320 ontological security studies. And that comes from the concept 922 00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:06,120 of ontological security, which is the idea that political 923 00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:11,600 access are always acting in the world or political agencies 924 00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,560 underpinned by this security of being. 925 00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,040 So ontology comes from this idea of being. 926 00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:21,120 So political actors are always acting by trying to be who they 927 00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,280 are. So, so that is the core, you 928 00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:27,240 know, the core idea behind this field of ontological security 929 00:54:27,240 --> 00:54:30,400 studies. So, and the idea is that the 930 00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,000 search for ontological security happens through the construction 931 00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:37,320 of biographical narratives. For instance, states they talk 932 00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:42,800 about historical facts or you know, things that happened in 933 00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:46,960 the past or the way that they depict their run narratives, 934 00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:50,160 their national strategies. All these things are narratives 935 00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:55,040 that arguably convey this sense of ontological security that 936 00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,840 drives foreign policy. And the idea essentially comes 937 00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,960 from Anthony Giddens who sort of popularised their idea in the 938 00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:04,800 early 90s. And that's the thing. 939 00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,760 Ontological security is a way to be who you are and contain 940 00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:11,400 anxiety of politics. In my thesis, I try to push back 941 00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,640 against the idea of ontological security. 942 00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:17,080 I try to argue that currently we're living in a moment where 943 00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:19,120 there are no ground for security. 944 00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:23,800 And more so I'm arguing in my research that we need to think 945 00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:29,920 about insecurity in itself in a way that insecurity is deeply, 946 00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:32,440 you know, ingrained in wood politics. 947 00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:35,160 So the security is aneatological, so rather 948 00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:37,280 ontological ontological security. 949 00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:40,720 I'm proposing a new concept of ontological insecurity. 950 00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:44,960 How insecurity spreads as such in this sort of ontological way? 951 00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:48,360 What have you presented at Besa? What or what are you presenting 952 00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:52,480 at Besa? So I presented paper that is 953 00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,840 derived from my thesis and there's a paper where I try to 954 00:55:55,840 --> 00:56:00,720 understand how AI manifests sense of ontological insecures 955 00:56:00,720 --> 00:56:03,720 that I'm talking about. The point being that AI. 956 00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:06,120 So there is this whole discussion about AI being 957 00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,480 conscious, AI being sentient. And my question was whether we 958 00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:12,560 can say that AI is becoming ontologically secure. 959 00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:17,360 That is, if AI is constructing a sense of being a thing or a 960 00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:20,160 living being in the world. I argued that it isn't. 961 00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:24,720 I argued that what AI is doing is perpetuating this institution 962 00:56:24,720 --> 00:56:29,440 of global politics because as we become our own data, this own 963 00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:34,840 data is utilised or feed into these algorithms that construct 964 00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,320 is large language models. And these large language models, 965 00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:38,680 they don't bring us any certainty. 966 00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:42,280 They basically spread contingency using methods and 967 00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,680 mechanisms that we don't know. And even more than this, it is 968 00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:49,240 this more as list, as very, you know, algorithm. 969 00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:54,720 Algorithm Reason for life the term by Claudia Aradeau that is 970 00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:59,320 being used by big tech companies and adding to the instability of 971 00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,560 global policies. I want to talk briefly about 972 00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:06,160 another paper that you wrote that I found fascinating about 973 00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:09,280 the concept of emotions. Oh yeah, no, thank you. 974 00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:11,560 Can you mention a bit about that? 975 00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:14,400 Yeah. So that was one of the 976 00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:18,240 theoretical pathways that I tried to explore in my thesis. 977 00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:23,520 I mean, the idea being that the ocean has also an emotional 978 00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,200 aspect in politics. The way in which states engage 979 00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:30,360 with the ocean has also effective register. 980 00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:35,560 So I call this effective register emotions to bring you 981 00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:38,320 together the words emotion and ocean. 982 00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:43,360 Now use that to understand how the UK, for instance, see itself 983 00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:48,520 as a global island, even though the idea of islands is similarly 984 00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:51,720 paradoxical to the idea will be global because islands are 985 00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:54,600 isolated by the ocean, so they're not destined to be 986 00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:58,360 global at all. So I basically drove this idea 987 00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:03,800 of the UK being a global player or a global empire was infused 988 00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:08,400 by emotions. And your your work is very 989 00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:11,440 theoretically heavy, but also very critical. 990 00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:14,480 Yes. How does this fit in traditional 991 00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:16,240 IR? Yeah, that's, that's a good 992 00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:21,000 question. I well, I think it is a it is a 993 00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,360 tricky thing because I'm not trying to say that traditional 994 00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:29,560 IR is wrong, incorrect, or invalid, but I'm trying to go 995 00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:33,360 beyond what traditional IR says. And by traditional I mean 996 00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:38,360 considering for instance the states for granted or sort of re 997 00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:41,400 refine the state as if it was something that exists and is 998 00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:44,280 easily, you know tangible. But I'm saying that the state, 999 00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,560 for instance, has other ways of manifesting itself, like for 1000 00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:51,760 instance, in the way that we feel who we are. 1001 00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:54,280 So like for instance, I talk about myself not in the 1002 00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:57,280 language, for instance, that is basically a national language, 1003 00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:00,240 English, for instance. So the way in which I express 1004 00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:03,680 myself is already the manifestation of the states 1005 00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:07,400 making me be who I am. So I think politics these days 1006 00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:10,640 is becoming more and more a matter of belonging, a matter, a 1007 00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:13,920 matter of being who we are. So I believe that this critical 1008 00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:17,000 stance on the state, for instance, might give us new 1009 00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:20,480 analysis tools to navigate the complexes, the complexities of 1010 00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:23,600 world politics. So it is a bit tricky because 1011 00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:28,400 also because I think many of the big philosophical questions that 1012 00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:31,280 we see, for instance, political philosophy are taken for granted 1013 00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:33,080 sometimes. Now we are one of them. 1014 00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:36,640 For instance, is the very idea of subjectivity what makes us be 1015 00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:39,000 subject? What is the difference between 1016 00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:44,520 US subjects or people made of, you know, flesh and the states, 1017 00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:47,200 who is also considered a legal person, for instance? 1018 00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:49,640 What are the ontological differences between those? 1019 00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:53,720 So usually I think traditional IR don't really properly engage 1020 00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:54,920 with that. Yeah. 1021 00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:58,440 So I think what I try to do is I try also to go back to the 1022 00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:01,360 philosophers themselves, and that sometimes can be a kind of 1023 01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:06,240 a lonely enterprise. I think this is very applicable 1024 01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:10,080 in contemporary times because of the dark times that we actually 1025 01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:13,040 your theory can explain a lot of things that are happening 1026 01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:17,000 currently, the existence of the states, the border, what is the 1027 01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:20,240 border, Yes, war, peace and so on and so forth. 1028 01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:23,320 So I think basically fun Girling over your research. 1029 01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:25,840 You know, I'm I'm saying this publicly. 1030 01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:28,880 Thanks, Marian. Appreciate that it's not always 1031 01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:32,280 easy to explain. I research accessible ways. 1032 01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:35,680 I apology apologise if it's not that clear, but but I think that 1033 01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:37,200 I think we need the things like this. 1034 01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:40,280 I don't think we're living normal time, so we need new ways 1035 01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:42,160 of thinking. But obviously if you're thinking 1036 01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:45,560 about something new, because it's new by definition, right, 1037 01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:51,320 it is hard to talk about it. So yeah, hopefully academia is 1038 01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:53,880 going to be a place where we can develop this new idea so we can 1039 01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:56,000 develop our intellectual thinking to grapple with these 1040 01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:57,480 things. Because more and more I believe 1041 01:00:57,480 --> 01:00:59,720 there's, I believe, like I said, I believe that politics is about 1042 01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:02,160 who we are more and more. So our emotions, our 1043 01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:06,480 psychological constitution, the way we see ourselves, the way we 1044 01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:10,000 see others seeing ourselves. This is basically ingrained in 1045 01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:12,760 the way politics is happening. And I think that AI is going to 1046 01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:16,160 be a big thing, especially because even the definition of 1047 01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:20,440 AI is strictly when I'm saying AI, I think I mean more other 1048 01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:24,760 than's generative AI and this form of algorithmic 1049 01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:28,400 acceleration, which is a term that Giseppe Coco uses, which is 1050 01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:30,600 another researcher. But yeah, and I think that if 1051 01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:34,080 you if you really want to think about this, about this New Times 1052 01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:37,800 and new fuel escort to to understand how things are 1053 01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:39,920 happening. So I have one last question. 1054 01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:43,480 You come from a practise based background. 1055 01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:45,200 Yes. Why theory? 1056 01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:47,840 Yes, it's another great question. 1057 01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:51,600 Thank you. Yeah, I, I spent decades in the 1058 01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:54,880 Navy as a commissioned officer and I've always been exposed to 1059 01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:57,360 the ocean, thus the idea of emotions. 1060 01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:02,880 But I think that practise and theory opposed think, practise 1061 01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:05,320 and theory always could constitute themselves. 1062 01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:10,400 So I think theory should not, it's not even extend practise or 1063 01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:12,800 vice versa. I think theory should multiply. 1064 01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:17,000 That's why one of my, you know, the philosophers that I work 1065 01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:20,400 with the laws, you should say like theories should multiply, 1066 01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:22,440 theory shouldn't define or determine. 1067 01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:26,520 So theories much much circulates concepts and obviously these 1068 01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:30,160 concepts are using practise who are therefore made sense of 1069 01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:32,440 through theory. And that is an endless cycle. 1070 01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:35,800 So I think theory and practise, I feel like ontologically 1071 01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:40,400 connected is just a different mode of operating the world. 1072 01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:43,840 So I spent a lot of time as a as a practitioner, but I thought 1073 01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:48,760 that I didn't have the tools to make sense of back then of how 1074 01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:51,720 the ocean participates in, in the constitution of the 1075 01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:53,920 international system. And I got really curious about 1076 01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,640 that. And I thought that practise self 1077 01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:00,080 obsolete is amazing, but it only takes you so far. 1078 01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:03,560 So I thought the sort of theoretical side of things, the 1079 01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:07,160 more abstract thinking can help, well, helped me, but I think it 1080 01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:10,400 can also help people to navigate the complexes of practise. 1081 01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:12,920 Yeah. And that this, this big divide, 1082 01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:14,480 I always think there should be bridge. 1083 01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:17,360 I think we should see theory and practise not only as a as a 1084 01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:21,720 theory of practise to as a way more like, yeah, theory and 1085 01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:24,160 practise. I suppose there's no domination 1086 01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:27,040 of one of one over the other. But anyway, let's say that's why 1087 01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:29,320 I'll stop that. Thank you so much, it's always 1088 01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:30,840 fascinating to hear about your art. 1089 01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:37,680 And that brings an end to our very first day at the BISA 1090 01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:44,120 conference in Brighton 2026. Don't forget we will be with you 1091 01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:49,160 tomorrow and on Friday bringing you episodes for each day of the 1092 01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:52,200 conference. So don't forget to stay tuned 1093 01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:55,320 and check out our episode tomorrow. 1094 01:03:55,720 --> 01:04:00,160 Keep an eagle eye out for it. And that's everything from us 1095 01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:02,400 today. My name is Kieran O'meara. 1096 01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:07,840 And I am Mariana Karakulaki. And together we've been thinking 1097 01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:08,520 global.