1 00:00:01,520 --> 00:00:05,160 In this episode, Family Features therapist Adrian Perks 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:09,560 demystifies eye movement desensitization reprocessing, 3 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:15,080 more commonly known as EMDR. We discuss how EMDR works, what 4 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,400 a session can consist of, how quickly it works, and who it's 5 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,160 for. Currently, we offer EMDR through 6 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,120 our well-being Hub service to speak to a member of the team 7 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,480 about how EMDR could help you or someone in your family. 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,600 You can find our contact details and the relevant links in the 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,120 caption. I think people have a sort of 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,400 misconcept, quite a few misconceptions of what EMDR is, 11 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,760 and it just feels like this mystical, magical thing. 12 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:46,120 It's almost a bit like sci-fi, but just from the things that 13 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:50,800 I've heard about it. But how would you explain EMDR 14 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:52,840 to someone who was sceptical about it? 15 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,840 Well, I suppose I'd, I'd talk about, so it was kind of 16 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:04,080 developed for like PTSD symptoms and like explaining it in a kind 17 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:08,960 of way that people understand, I suppose is that when you have 18 00:01:08,960 --> 00:01:13,360 PTSD, that memory is kind of flowing around in your brain and 19 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:18,440 it's easily triggered or activated at any time. 20 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:22,160 So that's why people can experience the feelings they had 21 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:28,760 in their event now. So what EMDR does by bilateral 22 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,400 stimulation is helping the brain far away that memory. 23 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,640 So it's not floating around to be activated all the time. 24 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,040 So I don't know if that makes sense. 25 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:45,040 I mean, the what what happens for people is they will remember 26 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,160 something really intensely and after EMDR they'll still 27 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:53,040 remember it, but it won't have the intensity to them. 28 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:54,360 That. Feeling. 29 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:58,360 Yeah, yeah. And I guess the thing that 30 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:03,360 sounds a bit kind of I've heard EMDR described recently in an 31 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:09,720 interview where someone talks about being on a train and 32 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,720 almost going past windows of their experience and looking 33 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:18,120 back over their life. So like a very out of body 34 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,600 experience. Yeah. 35 00:02:20,640 --> 00:02:23,600 And is that common for people to experience? 36 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,560 Is that part of it? Yeah. 37 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,720 I mean, there's various ways of accessing the memories, but 38 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:35,520 generally people have an image that they focus on and very 39 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:40,640 much, yeah, that kind of almost like watching from a train or 40 00:02:40,640 --> 00:02:45,800 watching a film of your life and watching it kind of change is, 41 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,320 is the experience of lots of people in EMDRS. 42 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,880 But also you can, you can, it doesn't have to be an image. 43 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,800 It can be feelings as well. So you can process the feelings 44 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:02,040 in your body. I mean, I suppose to bring 45 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,040 things to life is probably to give you an example. 46 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:11,040 So I mean, really why I, why I trained in EMDR is I felt that 47 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:15,600 with a lot of young people that I was working with, you know, we 48 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:19,400 would, we would talk about it, we would draw it, we'd do it in 49 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:21,520 a sand tray, but it was still like. 50 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,880 There. You know, and I thought, what 51 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,920 else is there? And EMDR was something that one 52 00:03:28,920 --> 00:03:32,280 of my colleagues knew about and I looked into and I thought, 53 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,960 well, this could be the answer. So my first kind of client was 54 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,440 somebody who'd had a reoccurring dream. 55 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:46,840 So when he was young, he'd witnessed a parent taking heroin 56 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:48,600 in the bathroom when he was about two. 57 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:53,720 And he, he was a young adult now, so 17 or 18. 58 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,040 And he was still having that dream every night. 59 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,480 So it's obviously something on process there. 60 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:03,760 So that's an example of that's the image. 61 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,520 And we use that as a starting point. 62 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,880 And you you kind of associate like a negative feeling with it 63 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,800 and a positive feeling and you move from the negative to the 64 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,160 positive and. What's that? 65 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,079 What's that like for you as a therapist? 66 00:04:21,079 --> 00:04:27,080 So you're sat with this person and they're, so you're, we'll go 67 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,360 back to the bilateral stimulation because I want to 68 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,360 explore that in a more kind of like scientific way. 69 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:37,320 But you're sat there and you're, I guess prompting and asking 70 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:42,760 them to relive or go back to that really, really traumatic 71 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:47,000 and significant moment that is very present in their day-to-day 72 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:48,640 life. And you're sitting there and 73 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,800 you're guiding them through it, but you're also sat there seeing 74 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,000 them go back to that place. And then what's that like for 75 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,120 you? I mean, certainly when you 76 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,200 start, it's quite scary because you're like, you're taking 77 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,720 someone back to something that's really like really hard for 78 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,240 them. But the idea, and I think this 79 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,680 is true of a lot of therapy is the idea is to be 1 foot in the 80 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:17,600 past and 1 foot in the present. You know, so always you're with, 81 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,440 you're with them and you tell them that you're with them. 82 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:25,120 And, and it's very different from talking therapy. 83 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:31,560 And that's why psychologists and social workers do EMDR as well, 84 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:36,640 because it's, it's very much you, you do some processing, you 85 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,280 ask what's happened to the image and then you do more processing. 86 00:05:39,280 --> 00:05:41,400 You know, you don't say, oh, and how do you feel about that? 87 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:46,440 And it's, it's a process. So it's also good for people 88 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,600 that find talking about things hard, because you're not 89 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,320 talking, you're processing, using the image and focusing on 90 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,800 stuff. That must be quite hard for 91 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,840 people who are used to having traditional therapy or say 92 00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:02,440 traditional because there are so many different types. 93 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:07,120 But talking therapy where you discuss how it made you feel and 94 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:12,000 have you struggled when you've done an EMDR session with 95 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,440 someone who has maybe through their life, done lots of talking 96 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:19,120 therapy, lots of exploratory, and then they've sat down and 97 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:25,120 you're trying to do EMDR and they keep talking about how 98 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,240 they're feeling. You do prep them a bit, so you 99 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:33,040 say right after each each processor. 100 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,440 I mean literally. I mean, it might be worth 101 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,640 talking about the actual mechanics of it as well. 102 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:39,320 Yes. I have questions. 103 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,360 On that as well. Because it's not for long. 104 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:47,600 So each processing part is between the half a minute and a 105 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:49,640 minute. So it's not like you're doing 106 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:54,080 tons of stuff. The answer to your question is 107 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,960 yes, for some people you have, you have to be quite directed 108 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,240 and say, I don't need loads, I just need what's happened to the 109 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,480 image. But for a lot of people, it's a 110 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,840 relief because they're not, they're not into the I want to 111 00:07:06,840 --> 00:07:11,120 talk about this. So it's a way of processing it 112 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,800 without talking about it. And imagine a lot of our 113 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,080 especially young people we work with, you ask them how they are 114 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:20,560 and they'll say, good, how are you? 115 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,920 You know, they're not, they're not going to be talking loads 116 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:30,200 about it. So and for, I mean, I'm training 117 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,000 a bit more in working with really young kids. 118 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,920 I mean that's really exciting because the brain is more 119 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:40,960 plastic and more able to change and it's not as formulaic. 120 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,880 So the way of doing the bilateral stimulation can be 121 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,480 with the buzzers that we can talk about a bit more or you can 122 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:53,120 do jumping from left to right or use feathers to it's just to 123 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,320 stimulate that bilateral kind of. 124 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:01,000 Well, that what is it about the bilateral movement, which is 125 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:06,800 from left to right or right to left in sort of lay terms, but 126 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:12,560 correct me if I'm wrong, what is it about that that helps the 127 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:18,200 brain process the trauma and file it away? 128 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,760 Yeah, this is the bit I might need to do a bit of reading up 129 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:23,800 on so I can add anything into it. 130 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:29,280 But I mean it, it's a way of focusing the brain on that 131 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:34,559 memory because obviously with PTSD and stuff like that, your 132 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,440 brain is always trying to avoid it because it's that's, that's 133 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:42,720 the kind of survival response is to not look at it. 134 00:08:42,799 --> 00:08:48,200 So we are looking at it and it's a way of focusing as well to do 135 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:54,000 that bilateral kind of work. I mean, originally what what 136 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,520 happened with the MDR was the founder, I can't remember her 137 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:00,120 first name. Her second name was Shapiro. 138 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,160 She she'd had a trauma of someone dying and I think it was 139 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:08,080 someone dying and she went for a walk and she was looking at the 140 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:12,600 trees from left to right. And she is a psychologist and 141 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:17,080 she realized that this had some kind of calming effect on her. 142 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:21,520 So the original like pure EMDR is where someone holds up a 143 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,680 finger and you follow the finger like this. 144 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:30,080 I don't do that. I use buzzers or if I do it 145 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,400 online, you can look at a dot on a screen. 146 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:34,760 It's. Yeah. 147 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:41,440 And how do you know it's worked? So I guess based on my 148 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,240 experience of talking therapy, you talk through the issue or 149 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:49,880 the thing that you're struggling with or the the thing that's 150 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:54,400 being, you know, triggering. And then your therapist helps 151 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,600 you unpick it, gives you advice on how to manage that situation 152 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,600 when it comes up or if it comes up again. 153 00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:02,320 And then you go to your next session and probably that 154 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:07,200 situation has come up again and you go, oh, yeah, I actually 155 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,160 felt differently this time because we'd spoken about, you 156 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,120 know, what was going on in my body or I feel like I've I've, 157 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,120 you know, been able to reframe it and, and you have that back 158 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,480 and forth. But it sounds like with this, is 159 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,200 it at the end of the session someone goes, oh, OK, I feel is 160 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:28,880 there a release is or do they just go on and then, you know, 161 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,760 pop you an e-mail and go, oh, by the way, it doesn't feel as 162 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,120 upsetting for me anymore. Like how do you know? 163 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,280 It's a bit more formulaic than that, so particularly. 164 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:41,160 With adults. So literally you will think of 165 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:46,120 an image and you will then I'll take you through a number of 166 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:50,200 questions and then you will rate how intense that feels out of 167 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,440 10. So generally people will come 168 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,960 and you know, it's normally A7 plus I get some people saying 169 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:05,480 it's a 10 and if EMDR works you get that feeling down to 1 or 0. 170 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:11,040 Wow. I mean, for some things, you 171 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:15,560 know, maybe a bereavement or something like that, maybe you 172 00:11:15,560 --> 00:11:18,040 don't expect to get it down to 1 because it is sad. 173 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,240 Yeah, you take the intense feelings away. 174 00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:26,120 But yeah, I mean, I say to people when I start with them, 175 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,040 you said that's an 8, we'll get that down to 1. 176 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:34,720 And they look at me like I'm like talking rubbish at them. 177 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,680 But it happens. Does it happen? 178 00:11:38,560 --> 00:11:41,600 I guess I'm trying to get you to put some parameters on, but and 179 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,360 it's, you know, it's how long is a piece of string maybe or maybe 180 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,560 it's not. Is it OK, we'll get that down 181 00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:52,600 from an 8 to a one or a zero in six sessions or in two sessions? 182 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:57,760 Or does it depend on the person? Depends on, I guess, the trauma. 183 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:02,760 So for example, and I don't do so much of this work, but lots 184 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:09,680 of police officers, firefighters have EMDR for really tough 185 00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:13,040 situations that they've been in. But like a single incident 186 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:18,240 trauma, normally you would expect to within sort of 6 to 10 187 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:23,000 sessions process that. Yeah, obviously in our work 188 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,800 we're dealing with people that have had complex trauma. 189 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:33,760 So it can take longer or you choose to go down different 190 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,400 channels where you'll you'll process 1 channel and then 191 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,400 you'll then move to something else. 192 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:44,120 Yeah. I mean, it's, it's normally 193 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,120 quite it stays high, stays high, stays high and I normal 194 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,040 experiences it's suddenly dropped. 195 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,840 So when you processed all the. So what tends to happen is the 196 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,120 image kind of changes and a bit like you were saying, you're 197 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,120 watching it from a train and then your brain will take you to 198 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,080 all the places that you need to go to process that trauma. 199 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,760 Once that's done then then the rating will drop right down. 200 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:12,400 Wow. And I mean, so we're talking 201 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:20,440 about it in terms of like being a tool or an intervention for 202 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,600 extreme trauma, high level trauma, let's say trauma with a 203 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:29,040 big T, which do use it for kind of anything that is difficult or 204 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,440 is it only applicable for really intent? 205 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,680 So if you would say going through something that you were 206 00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:37,240 just ruminating on the same experience that you found really 207 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,920 hard, but really it was sort of at A5, yeah. 208 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:42,040 Would you do that? Yeah, you. 209 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,000 Could definitely do that and obviously you you've experienced 210 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,360 that like the calming exercise. So you can do those kind of 211 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,720 exercise as well. When I was doing my training, we 212 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,040 were split into little groups and there was someone who said, 213 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:56,600 oh, I've had a migraine this week. 214 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,600 I've got quite a pain left in my shoulder and the side of my 215 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,720 head. Let's try and do that. 216 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:09,320 And it took the pain away, so. What did, what did they do? 217 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,760 So they've had a, they've had a migraine and they had all this 218 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:13,520 off. I've had migraines and you do 219 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,320 feel almost like bruised from it. 220 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,800 They're awful. So what was the process of 221 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,240 reprocessing that or getting rid of the pain? 222 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,560 Did they talk about the intense feeling of having the migraine? 223 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,840 And felt that, just really focused on the feeling. 224 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,920 OK. Use the buzzers to focus on that 225 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,480 and after using the buzzers that then shifted that. 226 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,480 Oh yeah. And would you, would you say 227 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:45,960 that anyone who's experienced trauma should have EMDR? 228 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,280 Because it sounds like it really. 229 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,480 I mean, it's not sounds like it's evidence based, you know? 230 00:14:53,920 --> 00:15:00,720 But yeah, nice approved as well. So yeah, I mean, I suppose what 231 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,520 what the only areas where it hasn't worked for me is when 232 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:10,480 people are still in something. So an example was an adoptive 233 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,120 parent where there was still child to parent violence going 234 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,200 on a lot. So they were really dysregulated 235 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:19,800 by that. So that was hard to get them 236 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:25,320 into a calm space to be able to do the EMDR, but definitely 237 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:26,800 something. Experienced, yeah. 238 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,600 Yeah, that's hard. I mean, there are tools to deal 239 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:35,360 with that as well, but it's hard if people can't concentrate on 240 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,640 it. You know, you need to be able to 241 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:39,880 concentrate on the process and the image. 242 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:47,280 But yeah, I mean, I I think for adults that have experienced 243 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,360 something in the past that's still affecting them now, EMDR 244 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,560 is a great thing to try. Yeah. 245 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,840 And how would you compare it? Because it's that we've just 246 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,040 discussed, it's a different process completely to talking 247 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,200 therapy and you're a talking therapist as well. 248 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,240 Yeah, I'm a psychotherapist, so. You're a psychotherapist. 249 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:12,320 So what I love is what I really love the the way of working 250 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,200 would be to do some psychotherapy and explore 251 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,480 history and that kind of thing and then identify the EMDR, 252 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,400 something that can really help do the EMDR and then maybe 253 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,120 return to psychotherapy for a bit. 254 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,200 So it's kind of an integrated approach. 255 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,600 There are people that do pure EMDR and that you would go in 256 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,160 with an issue, you'd spend a few sessions or maybe even one 257 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,640 session talking about what that is and then you'd start doing it 258 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:45,240 and that would be the end of it. And I guess some people, what 259 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,880 you described about prepping people when they come into the 260 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:52,040 session to let them know like what to expect is probably, 261 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,960 well, I would imagine very, very helpful because you're, you're 262 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:57,840 aware that you're going to talk about something really 263 00:16:57,840 --> 00:16:59,720 traumatic. And you know, you're just 264 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:01,480 describing it. Like you said, you're not 265 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:06,599 talking about the feeling description or not talk about 266 00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:09,480 the feeling in the same way that you would in an exploratory 267 00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:12,520 psychotherapy way. And you prep them and you 268 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,119 obviously let them know that it's a short period of time. 269 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,040 So you'll only be talking about this for a minute, which is 270 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,000 probably mitigates quite a lot of worry for people. 271 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,359 Well, I mean, it's so let me explain that process a bit more 272 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:26,880 to you. So what happens is you would 273 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:32,720 identify the target. You would then where are you 274 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:34,680 feeling it in your body, that kind of thing. 275 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,000 And then you would rate it. And then you do what are called 276 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,080 passes. So you do like I would ask 277 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,200 someone to think about the image while holding. 278 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,520 I use buzzers. So while holding the buzzers. 279 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,520 So I'll put the buzzers on for 45 seconds and then I'll say to 280 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,800 them, OK, what did you say? What happened? 281 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:55,920 They'll tell me. Right. 282 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,240 Go with that. We do another 45 seconds, then 283 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,120 we stop what happened? And we might do up to 20 of 284 00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:04,960 those in an hour. Wow. 285 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,040 But you can see it's quite a process. 286 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:09,760 Yeah. Yeah. 287 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,040 And are they describing it or does it change? 288 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,280 Do they describe it out loud to you while the buzzer? 289 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,000 OK, so they just do and you ask some questions as they if. 290 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,120 They ask some questions, I get them to focus on a particular 291 00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:25,960 part of it. OK. 292 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,320 We'll just so they'll say, oh, this has happened in the image, 293 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,440 I'll be OK. We'll just go with that then 294 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:34,160 focus on that and then we start it. 295 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,880 So it is like really like a repetitive process. 296 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:43,560 And then how, how do you bring someone back to a place where 297 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,600 they feel safe and able to go about their day? 298 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,480 Because that's an intense process. 299 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,280 And then to go, all right, thanks for the session and just 300 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,440 go, yeah, it's obviously an. Ending I would do that. 301 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,960 So the calm peaceful place exercise that you've witnessed, 302 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:05,320 I would always do that at the end of the session. 303 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,760 So that is using the buzzers, but I would put them on a lot 304 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,400 slower speed. So it's a really farming and 305 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:16,360 that calms the system and a lot of the EMDR processing will 306 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:21,520 continue after the session. People often describe being a 307 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:25,760 lot more, needing a bit more sleep and that kind of thing 308 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,760 because the brain is processing what's what's. 309 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:29,120 Happening. Yeah. 310 00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:33,240 Because you're, you're, you're asking it to work a lot harder 311 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:34,920 and it's being prompted with something. 312 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:42,880 And do people find, do you, is there a chance that you can end 313 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,440 up associating the buzzers with the trauma? 314 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,600 How does that work? Because I would imagine if 315 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,120 you're, because I know I've spoken to, you know, we have a 316 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:57,000 whole team of people who offered loads of different types of 317 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,840 therapy and have experienced loads of different type of 318 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,040 therapeutic interventions. What's really nice is that 319 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:04,640 everybody shares their experiences. 320 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,040 And I know one of our team was talking about the tapping and 321 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,640 like doing these taps and that is EMDR. 322 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:17,280 But then how do you separate out the the tapping sensation as a 323 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,920 calming thing and not as it's bringing you back to the moment 324 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,360 of stress? When when you're doing the 325 00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:25,520 processing, the tapping is a lot far. 326 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,960 So if you were to use bilateral sort of the butterfly type 327 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:30,800 stuff, you would tap a lot faster. 328 00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:35,040 So tapping on your I just I realised this is an audio 329 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,440 recording. Tapping on your shoulders. 330 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,800 Tapping on your shoulders with your hands or holding a buzz. 331 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,360 Holding buzzes so they wouldn't. It wouldn't be triggering 332 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:50,640 outside of the session. No, and I often give homework of 333 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:55,560 doing the the kind of calming place yourself with the slow 334 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,040 tapping at home. I mean that's what I love so 335 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,360 much about the buzzes is you. It's not only the speed of the 336 00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:04,840 buzzing, it's the intensity as well. 337 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:09,440 So when you hold on to them, I can control how intense that 338 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,280 buzzing is if you. Yeah. 339 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,680 Kind of know what I and, and I definitely worked with one young 340 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:20,280 person that that was key, like finding the exact intensity that 341 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:24,320 they needed to process stuff. It took us ages and we're 342 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,120 fiddling around with percentages and stuff. 343 00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:28,360 And then it was like, yeah, that's it, that's it. 344 00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:32,080 And now I I can process. Oh, you know, because I guess 345 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,320 otherwise if it's too, if it's not intense enough, it's you 346 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,320 just forget it's happening and it's too intense, it's 347 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,440 distracting and you can't think about what you need to be 348 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:48,360 thinking about. Is that because there's so much 349 00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:52,800 with all therapy, it's heart, it's general, but it's also 350 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,600 individual experience and case by case as well. 351 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:02,160 Is there anything that is kind of consistent with something 352 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:06,000 that everybody who you've done EMDR with has fed back that 353 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:11,520 they're like, this part was amazing or something that with 354 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:16,760 EMDR everybody's like, you know, wow, there's, there's like one 355 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:21,240 specific part of it that's particularly interesting or 356 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:26,520 people often connects with. I mean, honestly, it's the 357 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:30,960 reducing the intensity of stuff. I mean, I'm never like in 358 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,640 psychotherapy, it's a much longer process. 359 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:39,000 And you very rarely have people saying, well, that has changed 360 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,440 how I feel. You know, in six sessions. 361 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,160 It happens with the MDR, you know, that these are things that 362 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:51,440 people have been living with for years and suddenly they're much 363 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:56,880 less intense and it frees them. So it if it works, it's it's 364 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,120 great and it does it does work most of the time. 365 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:04,480 I mean, that kind of brings me back to why would anyone not 366 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,520 have EMDR? I know you've mentioned about if 367 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,720 someone's still in it, you know, if they're still experiencing 368 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:13,600 child, you know, child to parent violence. 369 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,400 Using the example you gave, it's not. 370 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,360 It's too difficult because it's still actually happening to 371 00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:20,360 them. I mean that would be. 372 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,880 True of that would be true of psychotherapy as well with with 373 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,960 that particular client because they were so dysregulated that 374 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:30,720 it's really hard. I mean that you know, there 375 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,280 there there is a concept of being therapy ready and being 376 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,840 ready for the work, which I'm sure you know about as you've 377 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:42,480 been someone who's had therapy. So you have to be ready for it 378 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,040 as well. I think some of it is people 379 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,480 think it's, they don't understand what it is and I 380 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,840 don't think it's that widely known even though do. 381 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,040 You think that's just because it's a kind of, I don't know, 382 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,000 it's more fish in a big pond. Everyone's people are just 383 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:05,520 generally more prescriptive of psychotherapy, CBT, and that 384 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,320 that's just a more known about thing and this is an unknown and 385 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,480 people don't gravitate towards it or it feels too good to be 386 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,640 true because it just sounds, you know, it's incredible the 387 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,800 results you're talking about. I'm not sure actually why it. 388 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,000 I mean, I think one of the problems is lots of people 389 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,160 trained in it and then they don't use it very quickly and 390 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,800 then they decide because you know it. 391 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,120 I think you alluded to this earlier on that actually these 392 00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:35,280 are quite, you're going to places where people that are 393 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:40,360 really scary. And I found that when I was 394 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,800 with, you know, early on after my training that I'm sorry, I 395 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,800 hope this works because I've asked someone to think about 396 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,320 something absolutely horrendous here. 397 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:56,080 But I know now that it works. So I can, I think that gives 398 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,800 some other, you know, confidence in for the client and they're 399 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,720 saying, well, it will work. So let's just keep going, you 400 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,440 know? Have you had it yourself? 401 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,080 Just only, only in the training. OK. 402 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,920 But it's interesting what you said, like, you know, thank you 403 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,880 for sharing that, that as a professional it's was hard for 404 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:24,720 you to initially to be sat there with people and be asking them 405 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,400 to do these things and think about these things. 406 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,080 And that's really scary. It does focus, focus the 407 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,640 therapy. And you know, you with a client 408 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,320 who's who's had tough experiences, you may feel that 409 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,880 you're both colluding in the fact that we don't talk about it 410 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,640 because it's too hard. It's a really hard thing to 411 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,120 think about. But EMDR does really focus you 412 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,880 on on those on those tough feelings. 413 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,440 Yeah. I mean, the, the other bit that 414 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:58,720 I wanted to say to you as well is that it's pretty 415 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,440 groundbreaking. Like some people that were 416 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,440 training us on my course that they use it for, they go out to 417 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,440 say there's been an earthquake or something like that. 418 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,040 And they they know that doing EMDR as quickly as possible 419 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,880 after something like that is the most effective way of doing. 420 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,920 Straight away. Straight away they'll come out, 421 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,720 they'll go and be in the centres where people are congregating 422 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,520 because they can't go back home and they'll do EMDR with people 423 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,800 to process that kind of trauma amazingly quickly. 424 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,680 That's incredible because the incident has happened like you 425 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,240 were saying, you know, with emergency services where they 426 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,760 experience one traumatic interview, some an event 427 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,360 happens, they experience it and it's traumatic. 428 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:50,160 We're not talking about long term complex trauma and abuse, 429 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,280 which is what we support at Family Futures and what a lot of 430 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,440 our clients have experienced, you know, one off specific 431 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,320 incidents. That's incredible that, you 432 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,120 know, almost straight away. Do you think it's more powerful 433 00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:06,240 because people, I guess it's to say that happened to you, you 434 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,040 experienced, like you said, an earthquake, right? 435 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:12,720 And you didn't have EMDR straight away. 436 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:17,400 And you know, 10 years later, it makes logical sense. 437 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,640 You're then having to go back to a memory that you've tried to 438 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,600 suppress for 10 years and has kept coming back because it was 439 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,320 so traumatic and you have got PTSD from it. 440 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,840 So it does make complete sense that it would work more 441 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,440 effectively straight away because you're, you know, it 442 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,400 more. It's more pleasant at the front 443 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,440 of your mind in a way. And that's why it worked so well 444 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,240 with younger children. And that is the bit that I'd 445 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:50,280 really like to expand because when I was training, I watched 446 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,360 this video, they showed a video of a toddler who wouldn't go 447 00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:56,160 into nursery. And obviously the toddler was 448 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,680 unable to explain why. So they, they were doing some 449 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:05,600 MDR parents were tapping and it works. 450 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,440 And they thought it was something like some what some 451 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,760 another kid had nicked a ball or something and it had distressed 452 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,920 this child so much that they will, I'm not going in now if 453 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:16,400 people are just going to steal my ball. 454 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,040 But that's a good example of something that, you know, like 455 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,360 really young kids can just be. And that was in one section. 456 00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:29,760 How do you approach that then with, with, you know, with young 457 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,200 children, because like, like we've just discussed your, it's 458 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:37,400 more recent, but when they can't, what's the age, age 459 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,360 bracket for that? Because if it's, you know, 460 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,680 recent, but it's still something they have to explain. 461 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:48,440 How do you connect the tapping the reprocessing to the memory? 462 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,040 So it's a bit more like you, you might be talking about what's 463 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:59,360 hard with parents there and you know, put the buzzers in their 464 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,400 socks or something like that and turn them on when you're talking 465 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,480 about something that's really hard. 466 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,280 But that also that jumping, you know, you can jump from 2 spots, 467 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,040 you know, you can be really creative with it as well. 468 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,920 I mean, it's, it's a bit that I, I, I would like to do a bit more 469 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:17,440 training on it and do a bit more. 470 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,960 Because if you think in the context of exploring people's 471 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,120 life story, for example, when when we're in. 472 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,640 A bit. When we're in a bit that's 473 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:32,080 really tough, then we turn the buzzers on or we jump or, you 474 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,120 know, and that helps the brain to process that memory. 475 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:40,080 Yeah, that would be, yeah, I'd like to do a bit more. 476 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:46,400 Really, no really interesting and really fits in really well 477 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:52,240 with how we as an organization think about the brain and the 478 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:59,200 body working together and bringing what's happening from a 479 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,600 description to how does that feel in your body, which is 480 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,880 something we continuously do with with families and. 481 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:08,760 I think that's really interesting. 482 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,680 Yeah. In terms of the MPP model that 483 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,000 actually what can be going on with the parents is the kind of 484 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,160 DDP work. So reflecting on how hard it is 485 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,520 while the child possibly is having some tapping at the same 486 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,480 time, that might help them to process it. 487 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:29,400 Well, and that, you know, the whole model of is, is really 488 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:35,760 that framework of integration of multiple things and rather than 489 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:41,640 like a linear one thing bringing in different ways of working 490 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,120 rather than just working single in one modality. 491 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,560 Thank you for listening to this episode of the Family Features 492 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,240 Podcast. You can subscribe and share this 493 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,800 episode with anyone who might find it helpful.