In today's episode, we're joined by Angela Palasos, Senior
Educational Psychotherapist, Neurodiversity affirming
Practitioner, Executive Function Coach and ASD Assessor.
Andrew is going to tell me a bit more about three key areas of
support we offer through the Well-being Hub, Educational
psychotherapy, psychotherapy for emotionally based school
avoidance, and executive function coaching.
So if you've ever wondered why extra tutoring isn't working for
your child or why seemingly simple tasks that lead to a
complete breakdown, this episode is for you.
You. Are obviously a professional and
you're providing kind of varying levels or support techniques
quite typically for people who are neurodiverse, but you're
also neurodiverse yourself. Do you want to share a little
bit about how that kind of came to be your particular type of
neurodiversity? Yes, You know, I always thought
that there was something different about me starting from
from school. I used to get very distracted.
Sometimes I would forget a lot of the times I would forget
about my homework. Not just that I have to do
homework, but what was it? I didn't write it down.
I started panicking. Oh my gosh, I'm trying to get to
talk to my friends so they could tell me what what the homework
was about. Like all of those things I heard
many times. Oh, she's so smart, but, you
know, she's very lazy. If only she applied herself a
bit more, you know, that type of thing.
And yeah, as I grew older, doing essays and putting things
together, my thoughts together, writing things down, that was
such a struggle. Like it would take me forever
for my body then to find the motivation to, to start, to get
the pen, to start writing, to turn my laptop on, that type of
thing. So it's I always felt like I
didn't have the energy or the motivation to, you know, those
things because there were things that required a lot of thinking
or because I wasn't maybe that interested in, in doing the
admin side of things. So I always thought I will
clearly people, it seems like everyone can do things very
easily and they typing away and they're doing all these things
one after the other. They get all the do To Do List
done very quickly. And for me it just takes
forever. So I always thought I will
clearly there must be something here because it's not just now
as in a grown up. It's it's been there forever.
So, yeah, I got diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 43.
Yeah. And that's made a lot of sense
to me and to my everyday life. I understand things.
I don't feel a change about, you know, making mistakes or not
being able to meet deadlines and things like that.
I know why, and I try to put the strategies in place.
So it does. It does make a lot of sense to
me now. And now it helps me a lot to
also understand my clients and the people that I work with
because I know that we have those shared experiences.
Yeah. And I can tell them, you know,
try this. It's worked for me or this
didn't work for me, but maybe it will for you.
So just having those conversations around our brains
and what can we do to make things a little easier?
I mean, it's never going to go away.
It's it's always going to be there, but we can certainly do
things to help ourselves manage. I think it's interesting what
you said, just thinking about the clients you work with, the
young people and you saying that you were described as school as
being basically able but not motivated and how that felt in
your body. But with it sounds like from
what I know about executive functioning coaching and I will
ask you to explain a little bit more then that is something that
is a particularly helpful for children and young people who
have neurodiversity. I myself am dyslexic and how
does what does that look like? What is it?
What does the executive functioning coaching session
consist of? Obviously it'll be slightly
different, but if you could give us an idea of that, that'd be
really helpful. Well, I think it depends.
It varies from individual to individual how old they are.
You know, we would focus differently if the if we're
working with a child or even a teenager or a grown up that you
know, does work in an office and things like that.
But essentially what we look at is the individual's executive
function profile. So the executive functions are
skills that we use every day for everything from tying up our
shoelaces to packing our bags with our laptops and things and
all the things that we need for the day to even remember where
we put our things, our keys, our mobile phones, all that kind of
stuff. So very basic skills that that
we use on a daily basis. So when we look at the
individual's profiles, we look at, OK, what are what executive
functions are most challenged for this person, for someone
could be like working memory or time management.
And then we think about, OK, when do we see the, the
challenges around this executive functions and we think of goals,
what do we see improving? So someone might say, well, I
want to be able to leave my home with enough time to get to work
and have maybe 5 or 10 minutes to settle, prepare my things,
perhaps get a cup of coffee rather than just walking in all
stressed because I'm very late. I have admitted, you know, that
type of thing. So we sort of break that down
into steps. OK, so in order to leave your
place on time, what do you need to do?
Do you need to get up a bit earlier or do you need to
structure your time, get up at the same time?
But maybe maybe don't spend so much time in the shower or on
your phone before you get to, you know, we look at the
individual sort of routine and structure and we think, OK, what
needs changing? And with that in mind, what
strategies can do practice and put in place so that you can
then leave your house a little earlier and get to work on time?
You know, that sort of thing? So it sounds like it's quite,
it's applicable, like executive functioning coaching is
applicable for anyone who needs help with those kind of like
daily tasks. It sounds like I'm particularly
interested in the neurodiverse aspects because what you're
describing about in order to leave the house on time and to
make sure that you have enough space when you get to the
office, for example, the, I imagine for quite a few people.
Well, yeah, I just have to get up and make sure I leave it this
time for myself as a, as a also a neurodiverse person, I, I have
to think about it in blocks of I have to go all the way back to
right. I need this, I need 30 minutes
to sort of get dressed and sort myself out.
I need to pre plan my outfit because otherwise I know that
slows me down. If I'm like, oh, I haven't got
these jeans, they're in the wash and then that throws me.
I need, you know, to, I will pack my breakfast beforehand
because I know that again, if that's going to slow me down and
breaking it up into like increments and steps and like,
you know, I'm, I'm a 32 year old woman.
I have to think about these things because that's just the
way that my brain works. But I think for younger people,
things like that in the classroom or understanding that
it's OK that I just need that bit more time or it's OK, or
it's not strange that I need to think about these things when
other people are going. Oh, yeah.
What do you mean? I just get up and go and it's
fine, or it's stressful to me to be rushing?
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's for all the
people. That's the thing.
For all the neurotypical people, as we hear it.
This sounds like, well, what's the issue, isn't it?
It's like you just get ready and leave.
What's the problem? Why are you, Why are you
stressing? But it is very stressful.
And it sounds like your brain in some areas like this, getting
ready. You're very organised.
I can't do any of those things. Even if I remind myself that I
have to do all those things. And that's my ADHD.
Like I just, I just can't do it. So I always stress and what do I
wear? And I just grab the first thing
I see. There's no planning, it's just
rushing. Even if I say to myself, OK,
I've got an hour, so like you said, let me just structure my
hour, right? So in the next 15 minutes of
now, it just doesn't simply work.
So it takes a lot of effort to be able to do all of these
things that for somebody else, it's just a very normal, easy
thing to do to just get ready with no stress and leave the
house. And I guess it's that effort
that is so draining, right, that you're having to do that extra
thinking. I'm aware that we've kind of
strayed into one of our favorite topics to talk about, which is
neurodiversity and how it kind of manifests.
But so that is a really good example of like the executive
function and coaching and like how you would get a client to
think about the systems they need to put in place to support
themselves. What is emotionally emotionally
based school avoidance? Because I'm not sure what that
is. That that happens when a child
doesn't want to go to school and it's usually because of some
anxiety associated with school. It could be because they, they
don't like one of their teachers, or it could be because
something's happened. You know, maybe not necessarily
bullying, but there are aspects of school that are difficult for
the child and that brings up some anxiety and the child might
be a bit frightened to go there to see some people or to just be
in a lesson with a particular teacher.
So what they do they, they sort of refuse to go to school and
often they complain with tummy aches or they say, I can't
really go because XY and Z. There are some some excuses, but
it's not because they don't want to.
They probably want to go to school, but they just simply
can't because the anxiety is so much that that stops themselves
from from putting themselves in that situation.
And a lot of people look at it as in they're just being
difficult. They're lazy, they don't really
want to go to school. They try to be opposition of
that. It's not really, most cases it's
not. That's not really the the
reason. They just simply can't.
You know, it's like when I was talking about my body not being
able to to move and to start things.
Well, it's the same. They can't possibly get
themselves to to get ready because where they're heading
to, it's very, very scary for whichever the reason.
For somebody else, it might not even be an issue at all, but for
them it feels really intense. So they can't and then they come
up with these excuses. So to say that for them are very
true, but for other people might sound like, you know, they just,
it has been difficult. They don't really want to go
there, yes. Get up with that.
Yeah, get it. Just just go.
Yeah. Being quite so with educational
psychotherapy specifically for emotionally based school
avoidance, is that what would a session look like?
Is that you? Because psychotherapy is talking
therapy, right? So is that you sitting down with
the child or young person 1 to 1 and unpicking or the parent?
Involved. What does that look like?
Yeah. So it it, it's different from
psychotherapy in that you ask that learning element or that
school element, right. OK.
So it might not necessarily be an issue around maths or, I
don't know, divisions or whatever.
It might be that there is some anxiety linked to school.
So what do you do? Do you try to unpick that by
first talking to the child and trying to understand what it is
about school that they find so tricky?
And if you realise that really the issue is linked to some
learning difficulty, maybe again, maths, they, they don't
understand numbers and they, they just simply don't want to
go because they know that they're going to be exposed to
all these things that everyone seems to be able to do, but they
themselves can manage. And so you, you start on
picking, OK, maths is the issue. Let's let's go deeper into that.
What bits about maths is that you don't understand?
Is it just the numbers? Is it when you put numbers
together? Is it when you're trying to
solve some problems and things? And that's when you introduce
some of the maths elements and the learning.
So you're not helping them learn how to, you know, do their
timetables or anything like that, but you're sort of
bringing the element, the, the, the skill themselves, itself,
the learning to then see what comes up for them, whether
they're anxious, whether they refuse to do it.
And then that's where you start reflecting and exploring with
them. OK, clearly there is an issue
when, when we bring this into the space, I notice that this is
what's going on for you. And then they might eventually
feel ready to say, yes, I don't like maths because this, this,
this and that and that's it. Then you're trying to explore
with that and you go, you know, you support them with that, but
you don't teach them. It's not tutoring, right?
So the academic performance is not what matters here.
What matters is the feelings associated with that particular
aspect of learning. And the sort of
intersectionality between the two that they kind of inform
each other. So you can't, yeah, just be
like, oh, you're anxious about school because you don't like
this lesson. It's like sounds like a much
deeper exploration of of that, which is really interesting.
Yeah. And it could be that maybe this
say with maths again that the the child felt shamed when they
couldn't solve the problem or when they couldn't calculator
some or, and they felt protected and they felt ashamed.
And so there is this avoidance to go there again because it
brings back feelings that are very unpleasant.
And so they they, they have this response to maths where they
avoid, avoid it all together. Yeah.
And. That's what you work with in the
session. So the educational
psychotherapy, I guess I'm just going back to thinking about if
I was like a parent listening to this would be appropriate for a
child or young person who is struggling with school.
He's not necessarily saying or refusing to go, but who is
clearly going, coming out and anxious before stress before
Sunday evening is the nightmare. I'm just, you know, and, and
then the school avoidance is the sort of quite a bit of serious
accumulation of all of that anxiety and stress around
education in that child saying actually, I'm not going now and
that so educational psychotherapy would be very
appropriate for a child who's obviously struggling in school.
Obviously jump in and correct me if I'm, if I grasp this wrong,
who's struggling in school, doesn't need tutoring, but needs
some kind of therapeutic support and therapy Because whatever's
going on with their education is what is causing the issue for
them is, is having an effect. And that I guess at that age
when you're in primary school and secondary school, you know,
your whole life is school and learning.
It's very, it's a huge part. You forget being an adult, but
school is your whole. It's kind of your social life.
It's everything. Yeah, it could be that.
You know, Charlie's very bright, but again, for some reason that
links to their emotions, they're not able to function or to
progress or make progress in a particular area of their
learning, say English, because spelling is is is tricky for
them or the writing. They're not confident and that
would affect how they feel about school altogether.
It's not just English, it's everything else.
Because they might come in at 8-9 o'clock and they have a few
different lessons and then it's English after 5-5 hours of being
at school. But those first five hours the
child will be completely anxious.
It's not that they will be functioning OK before English,
say they will be, they stressed the whole day during and after
English if that's what they're struggling with.
So it really does have an impact on themselves and and how they
experience the school as a whole, not just that particular
aspect of it. And then of course that will
have an impact on how they are with their friends because they
will be anxious, maybe they will be a bit Moody.
Friends will wonder what's going on here.
So it does impact all of the aspects of of school, just that
particular one where they where they're finding, you know,
challenging. Yeah.
And where just having a tutor if your child is struggling in
maths may not actually be enough.
Or the the, a solution that offers them the most level of
support because it's about the emotional aspect and like the
mental bit. That's really interesting.
I hadn't quite made the connection or really understood
about the educational aspect of educational psychotherapy.
Do you think that the clients that you see who you do
educational psychotherapy with, is there a kind of common thread
of neurodiversity or educational additional needs or specific
needs that run through that? So it's a bit more, it's more
common for children who have additional needs.
And I would say, you know, being dyslexic like that is an
additional need. And I wasn't, I didn't have a
formal diagnosis of dyslexia until I think I had in secondary
school. And then I didn't have any
support in exams or anything until sick form.
And it was really tricky for me with learning, and I can really
relate to some of the aspects that he was talking about.
But yeah, would you say there's a common thread of
neurodiversity through that, through those supports or the
children you see that you're like, OK, there are themes in
there. Yeah, there is also because
there is often these communication difficulties and
social difficulties, right, that are also linked to school and
being around friends. But I will also say that I have
clients and it works really well with children that unfortunately
they don't have the support they need in their birth families.
So they don't have support around homework.
They feel very lost or they feel pressured to perform when
they're being helped to to do their homework.
So there is a lot of anxiety associated with.
Learning, right, because they feel the pressure of because
they feel like they're not good enough by comments made by the
parents or carers. So when you have a child that
doesn't really get the support emotionally that they need and
the makes, you know, they have a, a carer or an adult that
helps them just with the homework or the learning, but
also with the emotions that come with that, with that, with
trying to get that done. When they don't have that, that
the they really, the response is much more reactive, isn't it?
Because they feel completely unsafe.
So I'm, I'm given this piece of work that is already making me
feel awful and, and, and unable and, and, you know, it makes me
feel dumb really. And then the, the person sitting
next to me, they don't see that that's how I'm feeling and
they're pressuring me. They're telling me that I'm very
lazy. They're telling me that I'm not
listening others. So a lot of these children then
have challenges and difficulties with, you know, getting started
and performing and doing things because they avoid it
altogether. It just doesn't feel good.
That's it. So why would I put myself in a
position where I have to feel all of these things and no one
helps me feel better about it or helps me in a way that really
takes into account how I'm feeling.
So all of those children that, you know, don't get that help at
home, that emotional help as well, they benefit a lot from
educational psychotherapy because he's having that
container of the feelings, isn't it as well?
Yeah. And it might be that you're, I
guess that your child is, you know, you come from like a high
performing family. Everyone does very well
academically. Your child might be doing pretty
well academically, but clearly very stressed and anxious.
And because they're doing well at school, it's hard to make the
link or understand why they feel so stressed and anxious and
having that kind of thinking about the feelings that are
involved in that. And OK, they might be doing
really, really well and scoring very highly, but the stress that
goes with that sense of having to achieve because for whatever
reason they feel they must or they're good and they feel
encouraged. Oh, you're great.
So we're expecting, oh, you've got another a or we'll get
another. All of these things that you
might say as a parent that you don't even think about where
it's like, Oh yeah, great. Oh, she always go.
He always gets a stars or we're expecting all of that language
that I guess you wouldn't, you would just wouldn't think about.
And then? The internalizing of that.
And, and that's the thing, you might have a, a child who's
achieving and getting very good grades, but in order to get
there, because there is a massive expectation, the levels
of anxiety that they have to manage to get to that goal of
achieving is huge. And that's, again, clearly
having an impact on maybe their friendships or how they see
themselves because of, you know, if I don't put in the huge
effort, maybe I'm not good enough for mum and dad, you
know, So there is a lot of pressure there.
And the fact that the child, a child is managing doesn't mean
that they're managing and everything is smoothly.
No, you know, things don't go as smoothly as we think because we
assume that, OK, there is a good grade.
They're very bright, they're very smart.
They're very, you know, organised.
And yeah, that could be true, but that doesn't mean that the
child is not very anxious whilst, you know, doing
homework, learning, yeah, there is a lot of emotions at play,
so. Now we have to remember the
whole school system and the education system is based on
grades. It's based on performing and
learning and in a very specific way that we know most people
know. That doesn't actually work for
everybody, but that specific way of performing.
And then you're graded and then you're put into, I remember
this. So clearly you're put into
classes depending on how well you're performing.
So you're put into a class with a different set and all your
friends are in the other set and they all continue those like
peer relationships because they're in all the same lessons
together. And you who might not be
performing as well. Oh, and again, it's I keep using
the term performing because it is about a performance, isn't it
in school? And you're then in a different
group and you're in a different set.
And the impact that would have on a child and young person.
And again, the narrative like even if the narrative is not
coming from your home in school of this is really important and
the shame when it comes to not. Absolutely doing as well.
What you internalise then is that you're not good enough to
be over there with your friends or the other group, that of
individuals that seem to be very bright and able to, to manage
and to perform right. So that alone is just OK.
Well, you're categorising people into levels of I don't know, you
know, intelligence if you like. That's how someone would
internalise it, isn't it? Well, I'm not as smart as the
earliest, clearly. And yeah, impact is, you know,
self esteem and I'm not good enough or as good as you.
Just compare yourself to other people.
You know, when I did, oh, I did podcasts on EHC PS: with Paul
Stanley and he was talking about how girls especially internalise
things and high masking autistic women or girls at that point in
school, children seem, seem like they're doing well, good enough,
right, performing good enough. And I remember having this
conversation actually in reception with one of our
parents about EHCPS and the school had said, oh, they're
doing, they're going to come out with, you know, 2 GSCCS.
That's great for them. And she was like, no, but my son
can do better than that. And that might be your
expectation, but you're saying as they're doing good enough, I
know that my child needs more support in order to reach their
full potential, not just do good enough.
And I guess it comes back to those like narratives and well,
you know, they're doing OK, They're middle, they're in the
middle set and that's fine. And that's good enough.
But I guess it's a balance of, you know, good enough is good
enough, you know, if it's not worth the stress and the
anxiety, but also parents knowing their children best and
knowing that actually at home when we talk about things and we
have discussions, they're clearly really able.
And then you put them in the school context and they can't
cope. And what unpicking what that is,
what that means, What's going? On and that's why it's so
important. And when we think about
educational psychotherapy, to talk to parents and to, to hear
all those, those things, you know, they're very able at home,
But clearly when they're in school, something happens there
for the child that then they can't again perform and or at
the expected level or in a way that reflects how well they can
do at home. So then you need to think about
getting school. Clearly there is something about
school and we need to unpick that and understand what it is
in order to help this kid. Because it's it's it's
interesting, isn't it, that someone manages in, in one area
or in one environment like home, but they seem to struggle quite
a bit in another environment being in school.
And why? Why is that?
Just as a final note, because I've, we've discussed this term
recently in a staff training and I found it a really, I, I really
liked, I'd never heard of neuroaffirming before and I
really liked it when you explained it.
And the kind of work I think we're talking about, like
language, we've just spoken about language and internalizing
how things are kind of what is said to you as a, as an adult,
as a child, as a young person. Could you just explain what
neuroaffirming is and what neuroaffirming approach
approaches? Yeah, So newer feminists really
considering the individual as they are with the challenges and
their strengths, but without thinking of them as something or
someone that needs to be fixed, right.
So the person is who they are and they function the way they
do and it's it's good, it's as good as anybody else.
There is a tendency to look at the person as well.
They clearly don't function as expected by society.
Therefore they need to change. They need to put all the effort
themselves to change and to manage.
But when we think of a new reform in practice or thinking,
we, we think quite the opposite. Well, the person, there's
nothing wrong with the person, the person, they're fine as they
are. Maybe as a society we need to
change some things around so that the person can function a
bit better. So it might be that someone like
in, in, in classrooms, for instance, there's so many
things, so many posters, so many colours and displays everywhere.
And a child can feel very overwhelmed by all of that.
But instead of telling the child, well, no, you have to
manage. So we need to think about things
that might help you manage being in the classroom without feeling
so distressed or overwhelmed. Well, no, How about we reduce
this place and the bright colours so that that person then
is not US impacted by everything around him, right.
So that's, that's the thinking around it.
It's not changing the person is, is all of us making an effort so
that the person can manage and can fraction optimally, right.
And so Neurothyme, sorry, Neurathurm and practice then is
thinking about expectations, for instance, right?
And it's linked to the person and not changing them.
But in the school setting, for example, if we're thinking or
even in, in therapy, if we're thinking of goals for that
individual to achieve, you know, we often say, well, say
childhood has to in the next 6 months, he needs to be able to
approach all the children and initiate play or conversation
with them at least 60% of the time.
And maybe Charlotte or Mary, whoever they are autistic.
And we know that for an autistic child or individual, that's a
very hard thing to do most of the time.
So then maybe the goal could be phrased differently.
So maybe teachers can support Mary's peers to understand her
body language and to approach her when she seems or she looks
like she's able to manage that interaction.
Or teachers need to support Mary into expressing what she feels
ready to do so as often as she needs to.
There's there's no need to put a number to it.
So he's just thinking about what the person can manage rather
than what we think they should manage.
And it's always through that neurotypical perspective, isn't
it? This is accepted.
This is, this is, this is the minimum that someone should be
able to do. Well, not everybody.
You should do that time exactly. You need to fit into that and
you need to work very hard to be able to achieve that.
Oh, but that's not realistic for me because of my
neurodivergence. So what do I do then?
Do I have to force myself to be in a position that makes me feel
really uncomfortable or overwhelmed?
And then I go home and I have to be indoors for three days
because it was too much for me to manage and I need to recover.
It just doesn't need to be that way.
So it's for everyone to work together so that that person can
fit more, if you like, into the neurotypical world.
And that along is that I don't like thinking about it that way,
right? Because again, the expectation
is that the person needs to fit in.
But again, I think the positive is that it's everyone's effort,
right to make that possible and not just that particular
individual. Going back, back to the
executive functioning coaching and that revolves around support
systems and putting things in place so that you can, you know,
do be on time. For example.
You can start a task or you know, the things that you're
struggling with. And I guess part of that process
of the coaching is, is that do you think about the positives
that come with a child's strength?
So imagine you're looking at the struggles, but you're also
looking at the strengths of against my own experience of
being a dyslexic person, pre reading is not my thing.
But I can read something and take the information incredibly
quickly. And I look at things and
problems as a whole and in A and I look at things in a completely
different way to other people. And that's only something I've
learnt recently. Prior to that, when I was
younger, it was just I, you know, Charlotte can't spell and
she can't, she inverts her numbers and it was all the can't
do is rather than these are the attributes that are positive
that you have to offer with your neurodiversity.
Yeah, absolutely. So in, in coaching, we will
think, OK, what's worked? What have you done before that's
worked? How can you use your strength to
help yourself manage these other aspects, whether it's your
creativity or your playfulness, even, you know, if you can make
a task, be playful for yourself and that's something that's
going to help you manage and, and follow those steps, then do
it. If it's whatever works for the
individual, but of course, taking into account their
strengths and what they're good at to then think about, OK,
let's use that to your advantage and that might then help you,
you know, improve other areas. It's just about trying and being
consistent with executive function coaching because we
know that these skills, these executive functions can improve
over time, but only if we're consistent and we make new
habits, right? So when we consistently try and
strategy, strategy for a while, that will become a habit.
And that's when we we see that improvement in that particular
executive function challenge. And when something becomes a
habit, you don't even think about doing it right because it
comes naturally. So that's why consistency is
key. And for young, younger kids, we
really need the parents to be the consistent reminder and help
her so that they can they can do and they can put things in
practice. Yeah.
So it's finding what works for us because what works for you
might not work for me. And we're very different
individuals, isn't it? We hope you've enjoyed today's
episode. And found it helpful.
If you know a family who might want to learn more about
educational psychotherapy, or your own child is finding school
stressful or overwhelming, this could make a real difference.
Please share this episode with someone who might benefit.
And if you'd like to explore how we can support your child, get
in touch with us at the well-being Hub.
We'd love to talk to you about how we can support you and your
family. Thanks for listening.