Kyodo and Welcome to Swim Chats, a podcast about swimming.
I'm Shona Riddell, a writer and swimmer from Wellington Altero
in New Zealand. For each episode, I talk to a
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There's a link in the episode description.
Nicola, welcome to Swim chat. So it's great to have you on the
podcast. It's lovely to be here.
I'm looking forward to this chat.
I think we've got several overlapping interests, Swimming
being one of them, obviously. First, congratulations on your
beautiful book. I I picked up a copy when it was
published. Was it last year like last year?
November, October last year, I think it was.
Yeah, I think I I bought it for myself as an early Christmas
present. Lovely.
We like that, yeah. So this if if this were a video
podcast, I would hold it up, but it's an audio podcast.
So I will read the title. It's called jump in an insiders
guide to New Zealand best beaches, lakes, rivers, pools
and Hot Springs. And it's Yep, sorry, what?
Were you gonna say no? It's just.
It's the one. Well done.
Oh. Yeah, absolutely.
And, and it's full of beautiful photos, all, all sorts of great
swimming spots around the country.
And I saw that it's just being released in the US and Canada as
well. So that's exciting.
Yeah, that was very exciting news.
Yeah. And it makes sense, I think,
especially because, you know, my writing, I really specialize in
New Zealand stories, so something that I never expected
to happen. International market.
Nice. Yeah, really cool.
Makes sense because a people come to New Zealand so they will
want to know where to swim. But also a lot of people are
armchair travellers, right? That's it.
That's and they want pictures of places.
I had this really amazing message from a guy on my work
social media and he's an English guy living in New York.
And it was the middle of summer here and he and his partner had
just been to New Zealand on holiday and they'd spent I think
3 or 4 weeks just traveling around doing a lot of swimming.
And he'd picked up the book at the airport on on his way home,
and he sent me a photo of sort of snowy New York out the window
and was like, it's your fault. We're planning a trip to come
back. That's awesome.
That's so nice to hear from readers, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Otherwise, sometimes you feel
like you're writing to a, you know, a quiet.
Yeah. And I think.
People and you don't know what people are thinking.
That's it. And I think, you know, you kind
of, I work away in my in my Home Office and, and oftentimes the
only people you hear from are grumpy.
Yeah. You know, So it's really, you
know, getting that positive feedback.
It's been so lovely. That's really nice.
Especially with especially with the because you know, I've
written quite a lot, but with this book, especially because
it's such an important swimming such an important part of my
life that they, they felt like there was just a lot more on
this for for me that people liked it.
Yeah, yeah, a personal thing. Yeah, totally, totally.
It took the publisher about four or five years to convince me to
write it. Oh, well, yeah.
I was going to ask you how the book came about.
Was it so? Was it your publisher's idea, or
was it your idea? Yeah.
I mean, I'd sort of been thinking about it, but then
like, I would go, Oh no, that's work.
I'm not going to know. And then Alex, the publisher,
who is also a swimmer, just did his first ringy Toto crossing in
the weekend, which was pretty cool.
He basically he'd been asking me and asking me and I kept saying
no, no, no, swimming is my not work thing.
And I went in for a meeting with him one day about something else
and he said, ah, publishing committee have approved this.
And he brought out some beautiful like, sample spreads
and I was like, oh, they look good.
And and he said, yeah, well, if you don't wanna do it, I'll get
someone else. And I just looked him.
See, you bastard. Putting you on the spot?
Yeah. It's like, of course I'm gonna
do it. I don't know.
I was like, if I can't let anyone else do it, it's.
Your topic, Yeah. And as I was thinking, like, it
sounds like a dream assignment to, you know, swim and write and
do a bit of travel, possibly around the country.
But I imagine behind the scenes there are also a lot of
logistics to manage, like, like the travel and the weather and
access to some waterways. And the rest of your life was
like, yeah. It was quite funny because when
I agreed to do it, I just sat down and made a big list of
because I mean, I've come all, all my life pretty much.
So I kind of made a big list of I, I usually work like with
something like this. I had, I had a map, the North
Island map of the South Island and plotted on them all the
places I'd already swam and what, you know, whether I
thought that they were, were goers and, you know, kind of had
this list. And then I, that was quite handy
because then I've got, OK, well, these are places I need to go
because I haven't swam in those areas.
So in quite, I mean, that's the great thing about the swimming
community as I've got friends all over the country.
So I could just go, Hey, I'm going such and such.
We actually, you know, so that was a really, that was a cool
thing. There's quite a lot of photos of
lovely places with no people in them because I was swimming in
them in like September. So that was, that was kind of
fun. But yeah, it was I think
someone, I think the editor said to me, Sarah said to me, look,
one of the things she loved about the book is because it
feels like it's a community thing.
And I think it really was like, you know, so many of my friends
came with me on on little missions to go and check out
places. And I'm incredibly lucky to have
some friends who are amazing photographers.
And everyone just really got excited about it, which and it
was so much like we had so much. There was a lot of work.
There was a lot of logistics. There was a lot of going, OK,
can I put that in? Is there a few places I went to
and just went? No, But you know, the, the my,
you know, when I look at it now, I sort of think, Oh yeah, I went
there with that friend or, you know, so it was just, yeah, we,
we just had a lot of fun. That's cool.
Swimming really brings people together, doesn't it?
Yeah, yeah. And The funny thing about it is
that one of the things that I kind of really loved when I got
into doing more events and stuff is that it's kind of such an
introvert sport at the same time, you know, where you kind
of chat on the start line, then you just get out there and talk
to very few people. Well, yeah.
That's definitely part of what I like about it.
Yeah. Social and alone time, isn't it?
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, my, I mean, one of
my friends who I swam with in the early years was proud of me
when I did my first five Bridges River swim without stopping to
chat to any of the people on water support.
You're just focused, but it's, I think that I don't know, you
know, that that community around it is, is just such a cool one.
It's so important. It's such a big part of it.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I really like with the book, how, you know, you, you're sort
of profiling each swim spot and you've got the details about,
you know, whether you can park like the the logistical site,
you know, can I bring dogs? Can I bring kids?
But also like your description really gives a feel for what
it's like to arrive there because that's, that's part of
it as well. Right before you get in, just
seeing it because there's such beautiful spots.
Yeah. And and practical information on
even just how to get there, because they're not always easy
to find. Right, that's it.
I think I sort of tried to, because there were a few places
that I really wanted to put in and then I, I kind of thought,
how do I even explain how to get there?
And I thought, well, if I can't explain it, then people are
going to. I don't want people getting lost
and, and like, there's a certain amount of having to be aware of
that space and how many people can access it.
So, you know, I made sure that there's kind of ample parking
and, and that that they're not on big because he was like, what
was the one? There was one in Fiordland that
I really want to include. And then I thought, man, people
aren't going to trick up that mess of big hill.
You know, I wanted to make it accessible, as accessible to as
many people as possible. Yeah.
So I think that that kind of came into it.
You know, one of my favorite swimming holes, which is a top
secret one, I was like, I can't because it's a, you know, it's a
high country walk across pedicure pedicures.
You just can't. So some might accuse me of
gatekeeping on that one, but. Is there is there potential for
a sequel like had had to access but rewarding swim spots?
Oh, there's a couple of people I've just said help me out, I'll
tell you. Was there anything in particular
that surprised you when you were writing the book?
Like were there any unexpected swim experiences?
So many oh really so many like there were places that that I
didn't expect anything of there was in the going across on
state. Oh, what's the, the main road to
get between Gisborne and the ports Key And we, we were going
along the river and I've been told about a couple of like on
the main road there a couple of spots on the river and we
couldn't find them. So we pulled into this little
dock campsite where there was a stream that came down and it was
just, it's like a little stream and goodness knows the state of
it now after all the storms. But it's just this little
stream. There was a historic bridge at
the end of it. And anyone that knows me knows
I'm a nerd for a historic bridge.
But this, but this, you could just hop in and kind of the,
the, the stream would just take you down and then you'd hop out
and walk back up. And I must have done it 5 or 6
times. And it was just, you know,
sometimes you just have a, a swim that's kind of the, it was
a really warm day. We were on quite a long drive
and it just was perfect. Like it was just really perfect.
And and you know, and any other day that might not those that
that selection of kind of things might not have happened and it
might not have been, but man, it was just so meant.
Exactly right for that day. Yeah, we had a couple of times
where we had a triumph in the face of adversity and me and my
friend Theo went down to Taranaki for a weekend and just
lots of things conspired against us, including the weather, Rd.
closures and the all sorts of things in.
I've been told about a lake and we drove away up there and there
was just jet skis everywhere and I was like, I'm not getting in.
It was beautiful, but I was just like, Nah.
And then we went into beautiful Kenna Design store in New
Plymouth and I just got chatting to the woman in there and she
said, Oh, have you been to the why fucker E Who river?
And I was like, I don't even know where that is.
And she said, oh, well, you go up to Tupac E, which is this
amazing to putty. Sorry, amazing heritage
homestead, which is owned by the council and is just like arts
and crafts, like 1930s absolute with these beautiful, beautiful
grounds and and there's a swimming hole just at the bottom
of the ground. So we explored the grounds then
and there's like free barbecues there.
And like it just was this incredible spot that had I not
just sort of said to the woman in the shop, Hey, where would
you, you know, as a local, where would you recommend?
Like just, it was just so gorgeous.
So it was like, you know, lots of that, just those sort of
little meant to be moments, I guess.
And that local knowledge that yeah, yeah, really didn't know
about it otherwise. Right.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Really important.
On the flip side of that, we also, I had my friend Jane who
lives in Omaru, We went down to stayed with her.
We did a day where we went from Omaru to Fairly and we swear
that was our record 7 swims in a day and then she took me out to
this. Amazing.
It was such a cool swimming hole out on the Kakanuri River.
Beautiful everything you would want in a sort of an hotel.
Had the lovely big shift rocks and they were really warm and
there was kids playing and it was just gorgeous.
And then when I came home to write about it, it's just it
are, you know, not really recommended for swimming because
one of the South Island's biggest seagull colonies list
nests just upstream. So I was like, I think.
It's good you didn't hear that any earlier.
I know, I know, I know. But it was, it was, you know,
when I found it, by that stage it was clear that I hadn't got
sick and we'd had a nice time. So you know.
You mentioned earlier that you're, you live in Auckland
now, so and the water there sort of relatively speaking is, is
fairly mild. How do you find swimming in the
colder parts of the country? Well, the benefit of, of for me
is the fact that I'm from Invercargill.
So the, I've swam year round at Auckland for the last, I don't
know, probably 8 or 10 years. I suppose last couple of years
I've just swam skins year round, but the water doesn't get down
to sort of, I don't know, it probably gets down to 12 or 13.
So it's, you know, it's manageable When, when where I
grew up, I don't know that it ever got over trouble.
Very different, yeah. Yeah, So, you know, I grew up we
we used to bike out to order to beach after school and and swim.
And I grew up, as, you know, my dad's family, all from Central
Otago. So, you know, it was just that
summers, we would just be in the river and the lake or in the
Creek in the dam or wherever. You know, I was just a kid that
would find the water and get in it.
This. I realise now that there's quite
a lot of childhood photos of me just looking like I've fallen in
the water and miserable. Yeah, yeah, just.
Yeah. My parents used to always have
extra clothes in the car because they knew I'd do it.
I were prepared. So it's on the cold.
You know, the cold water doesn't really worry me too much.
I was down in Monica when it was that last August and we went for
a walk with, I have two good friends called Jane, Omaru Jane
and Monica. Jane and I was out from walk
with Jane there and, you know, accidentally had my togs on and
hopped in the river and had a swim with the, you know, snow on
the mountains and beautiful. Would be beautiful yeah I
noticed that you're included as at Saint Bethan's and yes we
like New Zealand ice swimming chickens stepping in there are a
few Wellingtonians who like to go down each year and I.
I'm I'm I can, I'm not I'm in all of them that can get in and
do ice miles and things like I get in, fart about and get out
again. So it's.
Me too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But Blue Lakes absolutely like beautiful.
We we used to go there a lot when we were kids have.
A and the and the introduction to the book, you talk a bit
about your own swimming and you mentioned learning to swim or
having lessons with a couple called Mr. and Missus Jones.
To my interest, because you describe them as I always have
trouble with this word, but inimitable and intimidating
alliteration of that, you tell me a bit more about them.
They so anyone I feel like there's probably people with a
40 year range range from Inver cargo that will go Mr. Oh yeah,
Mr. and Mrs. Jones. Like I feel like they were
ancient when they taught me and they're probably like in their
40s. Embarrassing, but they were
yeah. They just.
They took lessons. I would have been five, I think,
when I started doing lessons with them at Conan St.
Pool and Invercargill, which no longer exists, having been
replaced by the very Flash Splash Palace or Splash Planet
or whatever it's called. So Connor St. was like a real
old school pole and I spent years.
He is there because I played water polo for a while.
But they were just, they were an older couple and I think Mrs.
Jones would teach the little ease.
And then you kind of graduated to Mr. Jones.
And in my head he was quite a almost slightly military, but I
he probably wasn't. But that was kind of in my
brain. But, but they were really, they
were strict, but, but really, I don't know, quite amazing,
amazing teachers, amazing teachers.
And I think, yeah, there'll be, there'll be lots and lots of
Indigago people who remember them, yeah, fondly or otherwise,
because they were a bit scary. So they have a legacy.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
And the book. Also includes health and safety
advice like you know, what if you get stung by a jellyfish?
And so curious to know which you know does happen.
I was curious to know if you've had any sort of encounters with
marine life, either welcome encounters or otherwise that
you. Both.
I'm like the queen of the Medusas.
Like my friends give me heaps because if they are jellyfish
they will find me and they will sting me.
Oh. No.
Actually, I think I'm, I'm probably just more sensitive to
them than anybody else. So I've had some absolute
shockers. I had one day I got, I got stung
in my mouth like on the inside of my lower lip.
So I took some antihistamines, came home, it was fine.
Had antihistamine, went to bed, woke up the next morning and I
looked like I had lip fillers. It was the funniest thing.
So then like every now and then
I'll show people pictures and say, I remember that time I got
lip fillers and people who don't, who don't know me that
well alike. So, yeah, jellyfish and I, yeah,
we're not really friends, but I've like, that's one of the
things about swimming and like take up on one of the Hideki
Gulf is just so the marine life is amazing.
The marine life is amazing. And I mean, we've had a couple
of like the 2023 floods particularly have really damaged
the, the reefs like where I swam on the North Shore beaches.
But you know, I can go out. People that know my my
Instagram, I have a an ongoing series called shit photos of
Stingrays of of well, well camouflaged thin rays 'cause I
like, I'm just obsessed with them.
So like, you know, Stingrays, beautiful, like octopus, just
lots of fish, lots of I'm kind of a bit obsessed with sea
slugs, so I'm always taking photos of them and you know,
just really, really cool. I've had a couple of really cool
dolphin encounters which have been amazing.
One, one day I was going out for a swim with a friend and, and I
for some reason I looked, I was at Milford Beach and looked
around and I could see all these people standing on the beach
over at Caster Bay and couldn't work out what was going on.
And there was 3 orca had come in and they were, they were
teaching the, the calf to, to hunt the Stingray.
So we, I just stayed in and watched them.
And thankfully I had seen them because I would have crossed
tracks with them as I was heading out to the boy line
otherwise. So yeah, like just really
amazing. I think one of the good things
about growing up down South, like as I was saying, we used to
swim out already all the time and we would jump in our bikes
after school and go out there. And there was what we thought,
what I believed to be until embarrassingly recently,
porpoises that we would swim with.
And I found out since that the Pahu, the Hector's dolphins.
But we, we were reasonably, I mean, we were sensible, but
reasonably fearless because I mean, you know, the reality of
growing up down there is that, you know, that that off Stewart
Island is one of the big great white shark breeding grounds.
You know. So we kind of, and I think
having grown up with this, whether it's a respect or an
understanding, I don't know. But I'm quite lucky because I am
firmly in that Jaws generation. But I've never what I mean, I've
been, I'm sensible, but I I've never been worried about sharks.
I've seen them a couple of times when I've been like Epic Island,
which is, you know, marine reserves.
So there's so much food out there that, you know, they're in
their little ones. And then I've seen them shark
Ellie down at Mount Monganui. But you know, the clues and the
name there. So yeah, that's.
Right. It's it's That makes sense.
Good friend who I swam with and she's she's quite petrified of
them. And we were going up to do the
Pi. He had a Russell swim with the
ocean swim series. We were driving and she started
talking to me about she was sharks and would there be sharks
and all this. And she's a real speedster on my
in a match. They come like they wouldn't get
a Kai out of her if they caught her.
But she was terribly concerned about it.
And I thought I'm going to be helpful here.
And I said, look Ty, more people get, you know, hurt or killed by
cows every year than sharks. She's without even breathing.
She looked at me and went great. Now I'm scared of cows too so.
Add it to the list. But I think.
It makes sense that, you know, you grew up getting an open
water since you were a very young age.
Yeah. It makes sense that it would
just be sort of part of part of life and a healthy respect for
the marine life. Absolutely.
You know, there are things that I'd, I'd be frightened if I saw
them, you know, when I was in the supermarket.
But you see them in the sea. It's like that's where they
live. As my swim coach Bob says,
that's their home, yeah. Exactly, exactly.
I've always worked on the I've had this mantra for a long time
that there's more to fear from the sharks on the land than the
ones in the sea. Very true.
Good metro. So when I when I first bought
the book, I turned straight to the pages about the Wellington
beaches because I wondered just which ones you'd included and,
you know, whether I agreed with your choices.
No. Yeah, no, no.
Wrong voices. But, you know, just out of
curiosity. And I was very happy that you
included scorching bakers. It's one of my local bakers.
Magic. It's magic.
And days by was the other one. Yeah, yeah.
When I lived in Wellington, I just used to love getting on
that ferry. And especially if because I I
used to, I worked in government departments and used to work
weekends and stuff and sometimes you'd get days off during the
week. And it was, I mean, it sounds
terrible, but God, I used to love getting on the ferry and
going over there when I knew everyone else was at work.
That makes you appreciate, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's the beast.
So were they sort of two of your favorite swim spots here?
Did you swim at other places that you like?
Yeah, I used to swim around. Oh, I can't think what it was
called around from Lyell Bay. When you're going around the
bays, there's a little beach just around there called, is it
not, Elizabeth Bay? I can't remember the name of
that. It's terrible.
Princess Bay. Princess Bay, that's it.
I knew it was something royal. We got the yeah, I'd around
there. I love Lyle Bay.
I've got good friends that live up on the hill over the over
around there. So you know, there's something,
you know, I don't know, the swimming and and having planes
go over here is pretty cool. It is and you can see in the
winter you can see the snow in the mountains over on the South
side, London, you can feel a little bit tough getting.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know, like Wellington, I
think there's just so many great spots.
You know, it's a bit like Auckland where you kind of just
you can take your pick. Just amazing.
Yeah, yeah. Hard to hard to pin down really.
You mentioned in Auckland that you like to swim in the
hierarchy Gulf is that, Is that sort of close to where you live?
Is that? Yeah, I'm, I live on the North
Shore, so it's about from here to It's funny.
I swim Saturday mornings with a friend she loves.
She always swims to Takapuna because she comes over the
bridge. And but if I'm, if I'm with,
I've got sort of a bunch of us that have swum together for
years, used to be on Tuesdays and then, you know, so one
afternoon a week, we tend to go for a swim and then go and have
a beer. So we up at Browns Bay or
Waiake. But for myself, I'll swim at
Milford or Campbell's Bay and it's about, I don't know, a 10
minute drive from home. I suppose so.
And I think I have this funny thing.
I have a very, the West Coast beaches up here.
I, I, I can't read them. I don't, I don't understand what
the water, what I don't understand the water.
That's why. So, yeah, I, I'm quite
intimidated by them. So I tend to, if I, if I have
friends here from overseas or I quite often will take them out
to Lake Wanamu, which is by taking a like Bethel's Beach,
but it's a freshwater lake in the dune system and it's just
magnificent. Oh well, that would be nice.
I don't know about that place. It's amazing.
It's you sort of walk up, you can walk up over the sand dunes
or up the Creek and it's about, I don't know, a couple of KS, I
suppose, but just the walks, really fun.
And then there's a jetty. You can either sort of get in
from down on the from the dunes or you can go off, jump off the
jetty. It's about kilometer long, I
suppose. It's gorgeous.
Oh, lovely. And you mentioned earlier that
you've done some of the ocean swim series around the country.
Are you obviously swimming a few good few kilometres?
No, I haven't been the last. Well, the last couple of summers
I haven't. But yeah, I tend to.
I think I've done, I don't know. I've done pretty much all the
all the different, the Ocean Swim series ones.
I just volunteered at the Rainy Swim on the weekend.
It was good fun. And so you have done all of
those at Rainy Toto and I really love the river swim.
So there's two that people might not know about the the Hooker
and Topo, which is just so beautiful.
And the five bridges in Hamilton, which is a 7.2 river
swim, but it's it's equivalent to about 3K.
And I think I've done both of those.
I mean, I know that the five bridges I've done 12/11 or 12
times, I think so, yeah. So I mean.
Yeah, I have some friends who have done them and I know the
Hooker River one sells. Out really fast.
Yeah, it does. It does because it's so.
It's just so gorgeous. And it's so.
Gorgeous. How does it feel being sort of
pulled by the current? Like, is it exhilarating?
I love it. There's one point where you're
quite shallow and, and because the water's so clear and there's
stones on the bottom and most of the time you, the bottom's quite
kind of indistinct. But when you hit these stones,
and you probably, I don't know how deep it is at the time, but
the water's so clear, the stones underneath you and you, it's
only at that point where you realize just how fast you're
going. Remember the first time I did
it, I thought, oh, this must be what those normal people like,
those speedy people must be like them all the time.
Just that. Feeling of cursing.
Yeah, I don't think with the river swims, you really don't
realize when you're doing it. You kind of.
You have moments where you recognize how fast you're going,
but most of the time you just feel like you're swimming at
normal speed. There's so much fun so far.
Do you have like a bucket list of of swims that you would like
to? Do I've got, Yeah, I've got,
yeah, there's a few places in New Zealand I still need to take
off. I really want to swim in the
there's a lake on an island in Lake Wanica and I'm, I'm all
about that. I'd really want to get over to
that because I like the idea of swimming in a lake on an island
and a lake. Is that the Ruby Island one?
Or no, I can't remember the name of the art.
Yeah, I'd love to do that Ruby swim, actually.
Yeah, I'd love to do that. There's quite a few.
The there's one really tiny fun that's supposed that I've heard
is really amazing. So yeah, a lot of like in terms
of those ones. And I would love to.
I've done a few overseas swims. I would love to do the one of
the the my brain's gone one of those ones in Turkey the the
data now so. Now that's one trick.
The Bosphorus, so you know, but I need to get a bit fitter for
that. I read somewhere that you've
done the Summer Swim series and. I was an OG.
Yeah, I I took a couple of episodes ago.
Oh yeah, I saw that. Yeah, no, I was.
I was one of the Ogs for that one.
That was hilarious. I think I'd done like 1, I might
have done 21K swims by the time I went and did that.
I just got into one of my friends messaged me and she said
I had this mad year where I kind of just I had started swimming
and I'd had a couple of quite rough life things happen and,
and I sort of didn't, I sort of re evaluating things and was
just trying lots of different things.
And so I I, you know, I had some sailing lessons and I had some
flying lessons and I did all sorts of, you know, bungee
jumping and zorbing and all this sort of stuff.
And, and astral messaged me and she said, oh, there's the swim
series coming, you know, starting up in summer.
We should go. And I thought, oh, yeah, OK, so
we booked and we're on the plane and I said something about the
series. She said, oh, no, I'm not
swimming. She said, I thought I might go
to survive. So I was like, my God, I was
terrified and it was so amazing in city, you know, I was so out
of my depth and so out of my comfort zone.
And but I did think they were, I did 2 or the four swims and I
did three or something took ages.
But you know, in city I still say to him now, you know, he was
so he looked after me so well. He was so kind to me that it was
life changing. It was absolutely.
And I say that term and he just goes, you know, I've met, I've
met through some, I've met some of my closest friends and I've
gone, I think I've done it, I don't know, 5 or 6 times.
It's just one of my favorite places in the world.
That's cool. It's definitely on my bucket
list today. It's amazing.
It's just the the whole like you kind of just have pinch me
moments when you're there. It's it's so good.
Just the whole vibe of it. And yeah, brilliant.
If you if you. This is a tricky question, but
if you had to pick just one place to swim at for the rest of
your life, where would you? Choose Oh my God like one spot.
Yeah, just like 1 beach or 1 river.
Oh my goodness. And you can think about it and
we can come back to the. Question No.
You know what Island? Rhode Island.
How old are you, Macky?
Goat Island, Because it's just, it's, you know, because it's a
marine reserve. It's really spectacular.
It's I've done it in really rough conditions, which was a
little bit stupid. I've done it when it's been
completely flat and you can get in the caves around the back.
Like there's this variety of kind of marine life in
different, you know, in different days.
It's different. One time we went, we went up and
there was just this pot of massive pot of dolphins that we
had to kind of swim. You know, we kind of hung around
for ages. Then we got in the water and
this little baby dolphin just swam underneath me.
And so it's like, it's just such a, it's such a, a town for, for
Auckland, for the whole region. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I I'm really looking forward to swimming there.
The times I've gone there to swim at Great Island there
there's been a strong easterly. Is it the easterly wind?
Yeah. And about too wild.
Yeah. Yeah.
But have you been swimming with the Leigh Swim community?
I did. I have.
Has they're in. The area twice, yeah, they're
amazing. They're amazing crew and just so
passionate about what they about their whole, you know, all the
places that they swim, really welcoming, really cater to
people no matter what their ability is.
They're just a really awesome community of people.
Really kind and welcoming, hey? Oh, 100% yeah, absolutely.
And then you go, oh, sorry, yeah.
I think that's, I think there's a lot of there's a lot of places
around the country. One of the things I love when I
see it on social media, you know, people say, oh, I'm going
to, I'm going to be in New Zealand or I'm going to be in
Auckland for so long, you know, where can I swim?
And someone will always jump in and say, hey, yeah, come, come
with us. Or, you know, these are the
people to talk to. And I love that.
When you go for a swim, what is your must have gear that you
take with you? So it could be for during or
after the song I'm. Pretty.
I'm pretty low maintenance really.
I I'm kind of lucky because I have a GoPro, so I I always have
a GoPro with me just in case. And do you have one of those
floaty sticks so you can hold? No, I just wear it on a lanyard
around my neck. Oh.
Well, that's a good. Idea.
Yeah, just because I I'm a bit unko and my heck.
Well, I the problem with the lanyard around my neck, my
friend Julia and I went for a swim on it was a what?
Middle of winter And I said, oh, I can't.
We, neither of us could really be bothered swimming, but we
were kind of in our wet suits. I said, oh, let's go and jump
off the Wharf at Murray's Bay, which we did and I've, which I
filmed on the GoPro but failed to secure the GoPro in my hand
and it popped up off my neck and dropped to the bottom of the
water. We had to wait.
We had to wait with the tide to go out for me to dive down and
get it. And the footage, absolutely.
The footage is so funny because it sounds like 321.
Yeah, blah blah blah blah blah. You're lucky you got it back it.
Was it was it was highly. You know, Julia gives me heaps
about that. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And now I've learned that
lesson. Well, you know, it's all about
learning and swimming, right? And that, what did you get the
footage you get from like underwater but also on the
surfer like that? Yeah.
What Roger Deacon calls that frogs eye view.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's nothing like that.
It's so good and I think it, it gives me a chance to share with
people who don't swim something of of what it is to be out
there. And I think that's the thing
with my, with my terrible photos of well camouflaged Stingrays
and things like that. It's just things that I see
someone said to me once you do know, you don't have to post
photos every time you go and have a swim.
And I was like, I don't post photos every time.
These are just the interesting ones.
Yeah, kind of think what other gear?
I'm a Zogs goggles girl, earplugs most of the time just
because I'm. Just protect your ears.
Yeah, I've got must be youth means my hearings not great
money is so protect that one. When I come back, I've got I
have a towel hoodies in the winter, a large purple one
that's known as Barney. Like the dinosaur.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Hello. Yeah.
No, I'm not really. Yeah, not really very much.
Yeah. I mean, I've got I've got all
the gear. It's in the boot of my car.
A tow float. Yeah, no, pretty low
maintenance. Yeah, makes sense.
I mean, you're doing it a lot, so.
Yeah, yeah. If I'm, if I'm very organized
and swimming midwinter down home, like down South, I'll take
two towels and put a hot water bottle between them.
Because there's nothing like getting out of the sea, you
know, in the Deep South or getting out of a lake in the
Deep South in the middle of winter and having warm towels.
Yeah, Yeah, it's a good idea. I was thinking about, you know,
what you said about photography and taking the Stingray pictures
and because I always like to take photos after a swim, just
even if it's just of the bait tray am, it's just like a sort
of visual record, isn't it? It's sort of part of the ritual
of swimming for me. Yeah, yeah.
And I, and I just, I think there's something about, and it
sometimes surprises me the photos that people really
respond to and really like because they'll be ones that I
just kind of don't think twice about.
And but yeah, I think it's, I don't know.
I think I like being able to kind of just share something of,
of that space with people. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah. Now you're an author of a swim
book. As a reader, do you have
favorite swim books that you enjoy?
Really too busy actually for me but.
Well, I'm I'm terrible because I'm too busy writing.
Like I I write. I write so much that oftentimes
at the end of the day my brain just goes not I've got I've got
1 sitting by my bed that I love and I cannot for the life of me
think of the name of it which a friend of mine bought me and.
But you can describe it if you if you.
Want it's something, Oh no, it's gone out of my head.
It's it's a woman in the UK who her husband's really ill and so
she she it's something not it's not like I found something like
I found my tribe or something like that.
And it's absolutely gorgeous. And it's about, it's that thing
of ritual, the ritual of swimming and the, the community
around swimming and the health stuff.
Like for me at the moment, like I'm on quite a big deadline and
I just get quite stressed and, and physically I just go, right.
I know I just need to get my gear and go for a swim because
being in the cold water really just.
That's a reset from. Yeah.
So that's a lot of that that stuff I'm not so much into I've
I've, I have not really into rituals, but when I swim in in
the Hayaki Gulf or anywhere, any time I swim and I can see it on
your total, I always just have this little moment where I just
where I just kind of go thank you.
You know, that's that. And, and whether it's it's
thanking the entity that is running total or whether it's
just a moment of gratitude for being able to swim and live in
this place where we can do this, It's just it's yeah, I just,
that's probably my only, my only little swim ritual, I think.
I can relate to that. Yeah.
I feel like that gratitude's really important.
Yeah. Appreciate where we are and what
we're doing. Yeah.
Especially. When, you know, I spend a lot of
time in Europe and stuff and in the fact that you've got to pay
to go to the beach and places and it's just so difficult to
access. You know, in the UK it's really
difficult to access rivers and things where we, you know, we
just have that without thinking about it.
And I think it makes it even more important to look after it.
Yeah. Which is why, you know, I love
what John O Riddler has been doing his whole Co pepper about,
you know, just getting rid of the bottom trawling and and
looking after a waterway. Same with a lot of like one of
the things that was called about working on this book was that
there's so much around the rivers, you know, degradation of
rivers and and it's a it is a real, real problem.
I've got one of the rivers that I used to swim in all the time
as a kid. I wouldn't even put my feet in
now because it's just so degraded.
One of the cool things about working on this was the number
of places I found where people are really just working together
to rehabilitate their waterways and have brought them back to
swimmable and clean. And I think that, you know,
there's some real good stories of hope and around that and that
space in there too, which was really great.
Yeah, that's awesome. This is this is a question
that's only just occurred to me, but did writing the book change
your relationship with swimming? You know what it kind of did in
terms of when I got like if I'm travelling, I'm one of those
people that tears to get in the car and just go and get there.
And now I'm much more like I've always got my togs in the car
and I'd always plan to swim where I was going, but now I'm
way more likely to stop along the way and have a swim, which
before I didn't really do. I like that.
The, the there were two places and like, because I feel like
I've swum because I grew up down South and swimming around the
South Island a lot. It was, it was interesting that
it was places in the North Island that kind of changed that
for me. And I guess it's around those
places that because it's not familiar here in the North
Island. But the two places that changed
that for me were, you know, the Blue Springs, it near Petado
with which which tapu and you can't swim there.
But about a few kilometers up the road, there's a massive big
swimming hole in that river in the Wyhoda River that you can
swim in. Holy God, it's freezing.
It is epic. It is epic.
It is so beautiful. The water is so clear that like,
and it's like near Paterdo, which I would drive through all
the time going down to, you know, if I'm going down to
Taipur, Rotorua, it's right there.
So cool. And then the other one was in
the Fuckapa River, which is just, there's this big Bush
reserve just out of Orfango, which is just South of
Tamaranui. And the Fuckapapa River is
beautiful straight off the mountain, as the name suggests.
And we there's this gorgeous like it was only a really short
walk through the Bush along to this.
The locals have looked after this stand amazing piece of
native Bush. And there was a path walked down
there and there's a swimming hole in the river that they kind
of the locals had built this little area, I guess for kids or
like to get in, which was sort of had rocks around.
It got in there and I'm in the water and I looked and there
were five feel just just down the river from me.
When you think that these birds are rarer than than the North
Island Kiwi to see five of them and 1 go.
Yeah, in the wild, not in a sanctuary as.
Well, right, like just right there it tells you that because
the torrent ducks, it tells you that that river is really
healthy, that the ecosystem is in balance and that that, that
that whatever work is being done in terms of controlling
predators is really working. And it was just like everything
kind of just fell into like, like all these different factors
kind of fell into, I've got first bumps just thinking.
Yeah, no, me too. Yeah, it was good it.
Was so good and it was just that thing of, oh, I'll go and have a
look, you know, just that I'll stop and have a look when I'm on
my way somewhere else. Yeah.
And just that serendipity of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it's made me more likely to just stop and suss places out.
Yeah. And not just have a plan and
going to the shopping for that like I've got to get.
Somewhere. This isn't swim related, but
when I was preparing for this chat I discovered your book.
Is it Who Lived? Here, lived there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and so stories of
different houses around New Zealand or buildings and.
Buildings. Yeah, historic buildings and the
and the people who live there. And yeah, yeah, I'm really
excited to read that because I love, I love social history too.
Right. Well that it was an interesting
on that one because it was initially sort of we talked
about it being sort of very famous buildings and and famous
people. And actually, when I got when I
dug into it, they weren't necessarily very interesting
stories. And so some of these are quite
humble places. But the people whose lives have,
and they haven't necessarily lived there.
It's like people whose lives have intersected with the
building in an interesting way, whether that's through being
involved with the building of it or just all sorts of the way
that they intersected. And I tried to kind of bring
those buildings alive with the stories of those people.
And I think I'm quite lucky with, and it's the same with
this book. There's a few of the books that
I've worked on where I can just write them in my own voice.
And I really love that where I can just, I did a book called
Let's Get Lost, which was sort of New Zealand Rd. trips.
And my uncle, bless him, said to me, I thought it was all right,
but really it was just you kind of Dr. travelling around and
winging on about swimming and bars.
And I just thought I was like, yes, yes.
That's exactly what it is. You need to put that quote on
the cover. I'm not sure there's many pies
in the swim book, but they might be.
A couple of weeks ago here for Anzac Day, we had our annual
Anzac Day swim where we remember, so Bernard Freiberg,
who, Oh, yes, like of the pole and the beach.
And he did a a heroic swim in, in the night during World War
One. And yeah.
So I was going to ask you like, you're interested in swimming
and you're interested in Hillary.
Are you interested in the intersection between the two?
Yes, conference book that I've got coming out at Christmas.
I just read some things because there was something that had
been sitting on me that I'd wanted to include and hadn't.
And then at the last minute I managed to follow and change it
where I've written a piece about me to McKenzie.
Oh, brilliant. Yeah, because when I was about,
I think I would have been about. I don't know how old I was when
she did that. Double cross it the devil
crossing or when she was the youngest, the first New Zealand
woman to do the cook straight crossing.
I think it was and I remember hearing it on the radio and
being just so inspired by that because she was 16 or something.
And I did a speech about it. I think it was at school or what
you know. So I love that that that New
Zealand history of and I think some of the Mahdi stories of,
you know, Henry Moore and and some of those the cook straight
stories and stuff. So cool, so cool.
And I think there's something really because we can swim in
those same bodies of water. You know, you do think about
those people and what they've achieved and just how amazing it
must be. Yeah, exactly.
Just yeah. There's so many good stories out
there. Yeah, yeah.
I just noticed we've been talking for almost an hour.
Let's go so quickly. Is there anything you want to
discuss, Ray, so that we haven't already talked about?
Well, I think one of the things with the book that I kind of
like, there's one of the things I've included.
I have included places where there's options to do longer
swims and you know, for people that want to get out and have a
head out. But I really wanted to make it
kind of like I said, I really wanted to make it accessible.
I think one of the things that I would love is to see it like
really danged up in people's cars.
You know, we're but rather than because of like people have said
to me, it's such a good coffee table book and I'm like, cool,
can you just smash it up and put it in your car?
But the other thing that I would love the book to do is to make
particularly like anybody, but particularly women who used to
swim or might want to swim but haven't got the confidence to to
get out there and, and just get in the water.
Nothing makes me sadder than when I hear people sort of say,
Oh, you know, I'd love to go with the kids, but I don't want
to get in my togs or whatever. Like I just think if I can do
it, anybody can. And, and it's so, you know, for
a lot of years living in Auckland before I got really
back into swimming, I would go to the beach and swim kind of
late in the day, like even at night sometimes because, because
I felt that exact same way. And, and I find it kind of
slightly alarming and a little bit hilarious that I now I'll
happily wander around in togs and I just don't care.
But I think that this we as as What I realize now is when I
when I thought that people were concerned about what I was
doing, they were not thinking about me at all.
Most of the time they were worrying about their own stuff.
Yeah. And when the odd time when
people did so, I remember, you know, the odd time when people
would say things to me, it really impacted me.
Whereas if they did it now, I'd just be like, that's a you
problem. You know, I had, I had a quite
funny, I had a quote. I was down at the beach.
There's a few quite a few years and some young guys sort of cool
Greenpeace, there's a whale or some, you know, really.
And there was a time when that would have really, really
battered me and I just, I was just in a really bad mood and I
just walked up to him and I went right.
I mate said, which one of you and one of you, you and me out
there over 2K, Whoever wins can just stand here and say what
they like to the other person. Which one of you wants to take
me on? It's awesome.
Just they wrote. They both just turned around
left. Oh.
What a surprise. I think those think twice before
doing it again. But you know, I would I would
love for people to, you know, maybe for the book to just get
people a bit motivated to just go and get let it go and swim in
some of these places. Just even if it's just going for
a pedal and because the connection with the water is
just so just healing and you know, there's something just on
that really deep level that's just so good.
Yeah, it feels really good. So yeah, good for mental health.
All sorts of years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's like one of the things I love is quite often when I'll
go for swim, like at the moment, if it does, about every time I
go for swimming, someone will say, oh, you know, what's the
water like? And you end up having a bit of a
chat with them and just having a yarn.
And I think that the connection that comes from that, you know,
might be someone just at the beach having a walk or whatever,
but that connection is really nice too.
Yeah. You know, that just having a
chat about the about how lucky we are place or Yeah, yeah.
And I think you just don't know when that can change a day for
people too. So there's lots of, yeah, lots
of positives that come out of it.
It opens people up, doesn't it? Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I've had some really cool conversations with people
just, you know, but then there's a tipping point when it gets
really cold and and that's when you notice people kind of
veering away from you because they think you're really insane.
And it's not get caught being called brave.
People are like, Oh yes, always. Thanks.
For taking a bit of a distance as it's like you're sort of a
bit of a monster emerging, like what are you doing?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, he's so brave.
And I'm always just like, yeah, no, not, no, no, not really.
Yeah. It's like brave as the people
that are around me when I haven't been for a swim.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. My family love when I go for a
swim till I come home. I'm happy and all.
Yeah, I'll say about what you said about books and, you know,
like wanting people to engage with your book and put it in the
car and use it because I sort of feel like people fall into two
camps with books. People like love to keep books
pristine and they shot as a sign respect that you don't deface a
book and then there's others or like marking up pages and
folding corners and put it, you know, putting it in the boot.
And what's what's my books isn't, you know, the books I've
written. I love it when people put
markings, you know, in circles and highlight because it shows
they're really engaged with them.
Engaged with it, That's a. And I, I tend to do that tone
books I own, I have to add, not library books, but you know,
Yeah. Oh yeah.
There's nothing worse than someone else.
There's. Two groups here.
It's not. I can't really.
Explain, but you know, not in the car.
You know, like. Yeah, yeah.
Nothing makes me happier than than, you know, if I see people
say, Oh yeah, we tucked it in the car and there's some friends
of mine in Wellington actually said, oh, that they'd taken, you
know, down a roadie around the South Island and they'd taken it
with them. And I loved it because it's that
becomes part of the their story, you know, becomes part of the
adventure that they have. And and I think there's just
something quite, yeah, quite cool about that.
It gives the book another life. Yeah, that's awesome.
I really like that. I have to start planning my own
road trip with your book coming. Sorry Waterways, I have to see
now. I'll link.
I'll link to the book and the episode description so people
can go buy it. Is there a website you most like
made a look to like publisher or Amazon or anything?
No, I, I always recommend that people and you know, buy it from
whatever bookshop you can find it.
But if you've got a small independent local bookshop, we
love. Supporting the bookshop.
Yeah, I'm very lucky to have the gorgeous book lover here at
Milford, which I love. So yeah, independent, you know,
and the independent booksellers have been super supportive.
They've been amazing. In fact, some of the chain ones
have too. So I guess it's when you get
people that just get it. Yes, exactly.
Yeah, but no, wherever anyone wants to, if they want to buy it
called, do you want to get it from the library that's called?
To Library's called to. Yeah.
And people don't always know that New Zealand authors get a
bit of money from having their book from the library.
Yeah. Yeah, you're still supporting
authors by getting a book out of the library.
Yeah. And and also, I don't know about
other ones, but I know the Auckland library, if they have a
certain number of holds on it because the copies are out, then
they have to buy another copy. So yeah, it would be afraid to
put a hold on New Zealand because sometimes that means
they'll buy more. Yeah, awesome.
Well, thank you so much for your time.
It's been great. Thank you.
And if you're in Wellington, give me a shout.
And yeah. Definitely, definitely, yes.
I I've got, I've got, I'm well overdue a trip to Wellington,
actually well overdue. It'll be fun.
We can go to Scorching Bay. Yes.
Oh, I love you so much. Thanks for listening to Swim
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