1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,240 This isn't just a guy who's a little out of control, this is a 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,480 direct rise of an authoritarian regime. 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,760 The middle ground has been eroded in America, and you add 4 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,160 on top of that the fact that 75% of Republicans thought the 2020 5 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,000 election was indeed stolen or then you have a massive problem. 6 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:17,640 He's renamed the Department of Defence. 7 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,000 The Department of War seems a strange thing to do for the 8 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,080 peace president. The most chilling part of that, 9 00:00:23,080 --> 00:00:25,800 Donald Trump essentially said we've got a war going on at 10 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:27,880 home. Public opinion is the last 11 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,120 barrier to authoritarianism. You've written before that 12 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,080 democracy and America are inextricable. 13 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,880 If it has changed, is there a way to put it back in the box? 14 00:00:42,480 --> 00:00:45,880 Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of Trump World. 15 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,600 I'm Anushka Astana and I'm in Washington DC. 16 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,000 And I'm Matt Fry and I'm in London, UK. 17 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,240 And today we're going to be talking about Donald Trump 18 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:59,120 abroad and at home Abroad, Matt, he's painting himself as the 19 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:03,760 president of peace. 8 wars ticked off his list, A 9th war 20 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:05,840 coming. Let's talk about the ninth war, 21 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:11,480 Ukraine in a minute. But I just wanna later in this 22 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,960 episode, contrast that with exactly what's happening here in 23 00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:18,040 the US, where he has renamed the Department of Defence, the 24 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,480 Department of War, and made totally clear that that's so 25 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:26,520 that he can go to war with states inside the USA, states 26 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:31,200 largely run by Democratic governors and cities largely run 27 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,320 by Democratic mayors. And it is quite a contrast, 28 00:01:34,320 --> 00:01:36,320 isn't it? But should we start with what's 29 00:01:36,320 --> 00:01:40,440 happening overseas? Both in Gaza, where JD Vance has 30 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:45,600 rushed out to try and deal with things, and also what we've seen 31 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,280 overnight in Ukraine. I mean, let's start with Gaza 32 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,160 first of all. I went to a gathering last night 33 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,880 of UN types and many pro Palestinian kind of think tank 34 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,880 types and a very senior member of the government was there as 35 00:01:57,880 --> 00:01:59,440 well who wanted to remain nameless. 36 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,120 But basically, they all came to the conclusion that the best 37 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:08,759 hope of this very fragile ceasefire surviving at all is 38 00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:13,360 once again the weaponization of Trump's massive ego and his 39 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,080 vanity. He really needs the ceasefire to 40 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,840 work. If it collapses, whoever's to 41 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,320 blame, you know, and both sides will blame each other. 42 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,320 It looks bad for Trump, not just because he might not get his 43 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,680 Nobel Prize next year, but it's he owns this ceasefire, he owns 44 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:30,880 this deal. It bears his name. 45 00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:35,720 It is a geopolitical, diplomatic branding exercise of Trumpian 46 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:37,320 proportions. It's got to work. 47 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,600 So I think there is some hope here that even though Hamas has 48 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,520 not disarmed, in fact, more than not disarming, they're kind of 49 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,440 showing off their arms in their uniforms by deploying on the 50 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,480 streets of Gaza and, as we said before, you know, shooting, 51 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,160 executing alleged collaborators and doing all sorts of things 52 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:55,440 that are really deeply unpleasant. 53 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,120 At the same time, you know, the ceasefire has been broken by 54 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,080 Israel as well, with 80 Palestinians dead so far. 55 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,320 That's a lot of dead people, you know, in a, in a ceasefire 56 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:06,600 breakage. I mean, more people have been 57 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,240 killed by Israel breaking the ceasefire than have been killed 58 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,080 in Ukraine in the last week and the really, really heavy 59 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,240 bombardment. But to get back to the point, I 60 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,440 think he, I don't think we should give up on Trump, you 61 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,600 know, the ceasefire maker. Let's not call him the 62 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:21,920 peacemaker because as we know, there are lots of details that 63 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:25,520 haven't been discussed yet. I think that let's just think, 64 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:27,280 let's just hope that that's going to survive. 65 00:03:27,640 --> 00:03:30,200 The more alarming thing is what he's been doing domestically, 66 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:31,280 but we'll get on to that in a minute. 67 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,480 And of course, that is the situation in the Middle East 68 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,720 where hostages are out. My my concerned with all of it. 69 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,400 And we've talked about this before, is whether he wants to 70 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,160 see it through to the end or whether his motivation was all 71 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,000 about getting the hostages out. I mean, you joke about the Nobel 72 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:50,720 Peace Prize. I do think still having it on 73 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:52,040 the table for next year. Well. 74 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,160 Very helpful, no? Useful motivation. 75 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,480 But but then he's got this idea that, you know, suddenly he can 76 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,520 deal with Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 77 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,320 And it, I mean, it is such a cliche, but it is so true that 78 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,640 the last person who's spoken to him is the the kind of view that 79 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,480 he brings out. So he has a call with Vladimir 80 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:14,000 Putin. Suddenly he's getting angrier 81 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,240 with Ukraine again. Suddenly there was the meeting 82 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,440 with President Zelensky on Friday in the White House. 83 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,480 It's sort of really interesting behind the scenes reporting from 84 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,520 the FT on all of that. Trump apparently getting really 85 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,720 angry in that meeting they keep. Putting the map on the floor by 86 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:31,280 Trump, Yeah. Really, Apparently, he said. 87 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:34,120 I've seen, I've seen this frontline enough, the map 88 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:38,280 basically showing just how much of Ukraine, Russia has invaded. 89 00:04:38,280 --> 00:04:41,720 I mean, we have a situation now which I guess could lead us to a 90 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,960 position where at some point you'd hope that there would be a 91 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,840 ceasefire where Zelensky is saying it's a sensible 92 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:50,440 compromise to freeze things as they are now. 93 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,400 But a big meeting that was supposed to take place between 94 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,120 Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin in Budapest now looks like it's 95 00:04:58,160 --> 00:04:59,960 often. We've had a situation overnight 96 00:04:59,960 --> 00:05:03,600 where there's been a lot of attacks in both directions, 97 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:08,480 including Ukraine using British sent Storm Shadow missiles into 98 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,040 Russian territory and a number of children even being killed in 99 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,840 Ukraine from Russian strikes. How, how hopeful are you that 100 00:05:15,840 --> 00:05:17,840 there can be any progress here, Matt? 101 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:21,000 Well, I think just to be fair to Donald Trump for a second, it's 102 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,680 not often that we say this words, but I think it's 103 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:24,160 important that we should on this occasion. 104 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:29,160 So I do think that he is absolutely authentic and genuine 105 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:33,400 when he comes to his wish to see peace in Ukraine, you know, or 106 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,880 indeed to see a lasting ceasefire in Gaza. 107 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,600 I don't think he likes war, certainly not abroad. 108 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,280 I do think he wants that prize. I don't think he ever wants to 109 00:05:44,280 --> 00:05:47,880 deploy American troops in any numbers in a foreign adventure 110 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,160 unless it's absolutely necessary. 111 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,120 And I think again, to be fair to him, what happened from what I 112 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,480 gather talking to to diplomats here who I think are fairly well 113 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,280 sourced, to be honest, in this conversation that took place 114 00:06:02,280 --> 00:06:05,920 last week was that yes, Donald Trump had a 2 1/2 hour 115 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,840 conversation with Putin. That's a very long conversation, 116 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,600 even if you allow for the duplication of, of translation 117 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,080 and stuff like that. And in that conversation, 118 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,680 basically Putin made the mistake that he made in Alaska, is that 119 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,480 he essentially preached to Donald Trump his vision of 120 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,480 Russian and Ukrainian history, which is basically there's no 121 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:27,120 such thing as an independent Ukraine. 122 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,600 They're all basically Russians or little Russians as they used 123 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,240 to call them, you know, in the, you know, in Russian history. 124 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,560 So fine. I mean, Trump may not care about 125 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:38,920 Ukraine's independent history. I don't know. 126 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:40,480 I've not had that conversation with him. 127 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,640 But I think what he does care about is that he doesn't want to 128 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,160 be made a fool of by Putin. And Putin did insisted on 129 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,760 claiming the whole of the Donbass region, not just the 130 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:55,640 bits that Russia has occupied in, you know, 3 1/2 years of 131 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:57,720 war. Which we should say is most of, 132 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,880 we should say is most of that region, but the bit that's left 133 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,880 is really important to Ukraine. But he wants all of it, right? 134 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,120 He wants all of it because he's already declared that all of it 135 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:08,040 is already an integral part of Russia. 136 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,360 It's a Russian province now and and it looks a bit weird when 137 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:13,400 not all of it is actually in your hands. 138 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,120 And it it kind of, I would say to Vladimir Putin, if I could 139 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,560 forget about the last 15% of Donbass that you don't control. 140 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,040 But he clearly wants that. And for Trump, he says, hang on 141 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,840 a minute. You have, I'm imagining this. 142 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:26,640 I'm channelling Donald Trump in my mind. 143 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:31,080 You have barely moved the front line in the last three years of 144 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,760 war. Right now you want to win that 145 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,160 battle that you have failed to win on the battlefield. 146 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,240 In my head, by getting me to agree to something, which I know 147 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,760 because I have spoken to Zelensky quite a lot, I know 148 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,720 that they will never accept. So I think Trump in his own mind 149 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,960 has realized that there is a red line here for Ukraine that he 150 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,400 has to respect. And the Ukrainians have moved 151 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,240 quite a long distance towards accommodating Trump and his 152 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,400 particular vision. But Putin is not prepared to do 153 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,240 that. He doesn't want a ceasefire, not 154 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,000 at the moment. He wants to claim all of the 155 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,000 stuff that, you know, on paper he already owns, even if he 156 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,720 doesn't. And ultimately, he does not want 157 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:10,760 to see Ukraine as an independent, viable nation 158 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:12,360 state. And I think even Donald Trump 159 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,840 has understood, despite his lack of historical context, that that 160 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,280 is something that that's not going to work. 161 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:19,960 But of course, he's also impatient. 162 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,000 And he's impatient with that annoying President Zelensky, who 163 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,600 keeps saying no to, you know, to, to some of the stuff that he 164 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,280 comes up with. Yeah, and some of the language 165 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,560 you hear from Donald Trump does make me question what he 166 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:36,039 actually understands and wants from the outcome of this. 167 00:08:36,039 --> 00:08:38,320 I mean, I noticed he he says quite a few times this should 168 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,640 have been over in a week, but he basically says Russia should 169 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,960 have won in a week. So it's not like he's saying 170 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:45,600 Russia should never have invaded. 171 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:47,840 It's like he thinks Russia should have just done this and 172 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:49,960 done it quickly. There was some interesting 173 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:54,160 points where so there's, you know, for a blast, the areas on 174 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:58,000 the eastern side of Ukraine where Russia has made really big 175 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,080 inroads. Two of those a blast make up the 176 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,200 Donbass, which obviously is what Putin would like to see the 177 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,680 whole of. But they've moved quite far, you 178 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,120 know, across that southern part of eastern Ukraine as well. 179 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,600 There was a suggestion that perhaps in return for getting 180 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,640 the extra bit of the Donbass, which partly for security 181 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,800 reasons, Ukraine is really, really anti getting that up 182 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:21,840 because they've got a big defensive that area. 183 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,760 Could could Russia move back in the other two? 184 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:26,280 A blast. And I thought it was an 185 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,640 interesting thing because at the time of the Alaska summit that 186 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,480 you of course were at, some people were saying maybe a 187 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:33,680 compromise like that would be acceptable. 188 00:09:33,680 --> 00:09:36,000 But that wasn't what Putin was talking about. 189 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,600 He was talking about freezing the line where it already was. 190 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,640 I don't think Russia have confirmed in any way that Putin 191 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,600 suggested to Trump on that call that he would move back in those 192 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:48,680 other two areas. But that was one thing I did 193 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:51,600 think sounded interesting. Very briefly, have you you heard 194 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,640 any more about whether Russia have actually suggested they 195 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:57,760 could move back in? Those, no, I, I can't confirm 196 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,080 that in any shape or form. And it's possible that it's one 197 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,080 of those compromises that has come up. 198 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,160 I think the, the point here is also, and this is something that 199 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:08,040 Fiona Hill, remember Fiona Hill, you know, originally from, from 200 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,560 County Durham, had been, has been living in the States for a 201 00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:13,320 long time. She said to me on several 202 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,720 occasions, the big problem in this new White House is that 203 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:20,440 there are no Russia experts, at least no Russia experts that he 204 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,280 trusts as much as he trusts Steve Witkoff, you know who you 205 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,240 know is, at least as I heard this again, you know, from 206 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:28,720 someone last night who knows him quite well. 207 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,280 You know, he is able to admit when he doesn't know something, 208 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:34,920 he'll say, here's a blank piece of paper, tell me what I need to 209 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:36,960 know. But he's not a Russia expert. 210 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:38,640 He doesn't know how to deal with the Russians. 211 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,920 You need people have been in the room with the Russians a lot to 212 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,880 understand. They're very well honed, very 213 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,240 effective tactics of talking you into the ground, of 214 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:49,800 waterboarding you with history and all the rest of it. 215 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,840 And there's no one like that to tell Donald Trump where he's 216 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,680 wrong or where he needs to spend a bit more time or be a bit more 217 00:10:56,680 --> 00:11:01,360 reflective and to choose Budapest right as a venue for a 218 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,560 summit. It was so provocative in itself. 219 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:06,960 Not any. Is it a reminder of the Budapest 220 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,480 memorandum in which Ukraine gave up its nukes after the fall of 221 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:14,000 the Soviet Union in return for security guarantees, which, 222 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,200 frankly, haven't been working out too well. 223 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,680 And for them to have that summit in Budapest without Zelensky 224 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:22,920 present would have been totally unacceptable from a diplomatic 225 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:24,640 point of view. So at least that one has been 226 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:26,520 kicked into the long grass. Yeah. 227 00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:29,960 So in the meantime, on the basis of wanting to be the last person 228 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,920 in Donald Trump's here, Mark Rutter, the general secretary of 229 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,160 NATO, is coming over to the White House to meet. 230 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,400 Man who called him Daddy, right? So the sun is coming back to 231 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:41,400 Daddy. That's good. 232 00:11:41,560 --> 00:11:45,640 Many think credit with having really shifted Donald Trump's 233 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:50,120 position on NATO and on Russia, Ukraine, can he shift it again? 234 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,720 So that will be happening. But look, while Donald Trump is 235 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:56,760 trying to be the peace president abroad, let's talk a bit about 236 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,280 what's happening here in the US As I said, he's renamed the 237 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,880 Department of Defense. The Department of War seems a 238 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,200 strange thing to do for the peace president. 239 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,600 Why does he do it? Well, you've heard it many, many 240 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:09,840 times, I thought, most remarkably, when he was speaking 241 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,160 to all those generals, American generals from the military that 242 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:17,480 he brought to Virginia to address, partly, as we've 243 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,600 discussed before, telling them to Pete Hagseth, the secretary 244 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:23,320 of war, was telling them to lose weight. 245 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,840 But what I thought was the most chilling part of that was where 246 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,840 Donald Trump essentially said to them, we've got a war going on 247 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,200 at home in cities in the US. That's war as well. 248 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,200 It's the enemy within. That's what he's talked about 249 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:38,760 and we need to go and sort it out. 250 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,280 So just just to lay out what's actually happening in these 251 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,560 cities. And we've seen it in Los 252 00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:45,720 Angeles, we've seen it in Chicago, we've seen it in 253 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,560 Portland. Very big legal ruling has just 254 00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:51,400 happened on Portland. And there are protests that have 255 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,080 been taking place outside ICE facilities. 256 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,240 That's Immigration and Customs Enforcement facilities because 257 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,920 as as part of, you know, a big push to try and deport illegal 258 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:06,880 aliens, as Donald Trump called them, undocumented migrants, ICE 259 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,080 officers are, are literally in some cases snatching people off 260 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,640 the street in order to try to deport them. 261 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,800 So we've seen these protests. Donald Trump says these cities 262 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,560 are on fire. It's really clear, You know, 263 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:20,560 it's really clear that that is not the case. 264 00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:23,240 If you take Portland as an example, there have been 265 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,880 protests on and off since June. They were particularly large in 266 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,960 June, 1 night, I think they were actually described as a riot. 267 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,080 There have been one or two fires in that time that have been 268 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:38,600 very, very quickly put out. Donald Trump's argument is that 269 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,680 he is allowed to federalize the National Guard and send it into 270 00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:45,040 American cities on the basis this is how legally you're 271 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,920 allowed to do it, either in the case of a foreign invasion. 272 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:50,240 Clearly, you can't argue that at the moment. 273 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,040 Or a rebellion. So he's essentially arguing that 274 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:58,120 these cities are rebelling and also that in order for him to 275 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,960 bring law and order to these cities, he has to federalize the 276 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,720 National Guard. I mean, it is, it is quite 277 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,520 extraordinary. They've brought what they call 278 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,080 independent journalists to the White House to try and say that 279 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,160 Portland is on fire. Apparently, he's being shown 280 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,800 pictures of Portland on fire for most of the evenings. 281 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,600 I think there's been 200 protesters outside these ICE 282 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,400 facilities. As I say, no, no, real. 283 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,560 I mean, I think there's been a slight increase in Portland in 284 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:26,400 garden fires. I've been looking through the 285 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,320 data a reduction in building. Fires gone wrong. 286 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,680 Barbecue's gone wrong exactly, but that is his argument. 287 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,520 He's basically saying anyone who says anything other than that is 288 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:37,880 wrong. There was a big protest in 289 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:42,000 Portland over the weekend, 40,000 I think marched but 290 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:47,560 again, largely peaceful but but a huge response from from the 291 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:49,560 government on that. What do you, what do you make of 292 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:50,920 it all? I mean, you obviously spent 293 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:52,800 eleven years here. Well, let's look. 294 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:54,080 There's never been anything like it. 295 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,880 And I would broaden it out from, you know, the ICE raids, which 296 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,040 are very upsetting. And I witnessed quite a few. 297 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,440 And I was in Washington, you know, before you arrived at the 298 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,080 end of the summer, you know, literally ICE guys with their 299 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,240 masks parked outside Catholic schools, which means schools 300 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,920 where Hispanic kids go waiting to pick them up, you know, or 301 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,000 pick up the parents while the kids are in class. 302 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:17,560 I mean, this is just terrible stuff, right? 303 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:19,600 The National Guard is also really weird. 304 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,320 Deploying the National Guard in these big cities when they 305 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,200 haven't been invited by the governors is potentially A 306 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,960 constitutional crisis. It's not really happened for a 307 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,640 very, very long time. And then it was abandoned 308 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,200 because it's so it's so inflammatory and abrasive. 309 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,480 But I think the bigger picture, you know, and we'll, we'll talk 310 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:37,800 to our guest about this in a minute. 311 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,160 I think it's really alarming. It's alarming for me, certainly. 312 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,640 And it it may not be alarming for many Americans. 313 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,680 And that's also in itself quite interesting. 314 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:50,520 And the bigger picture is that you have a president who at home 315 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:55,200 has been trying to bend the Constitution, bend the laws or 316 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:59,240 ignore the laws or ignore Congress to channel executive 317 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,680 power. Like perhaps no president, 318 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,880 including, you know, Andrew Jackson in the middle of the 319 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,320 19th century has done before that, not in the history of the 320 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,400 Republic. And so, you know, it's the 321 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:12,680 deployment of the National Guard. 322 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,600 It's what ICE has allowed to do, you know, with an enormous 323 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,880 budget, bigger than the budget of most federal armies in most 324 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,800 countries that I know of what the Supreme Court has allowed 325 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:25,760 him to get away with. Because whenever there's a 326 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,600 ruling on, on, you know, an, an emergency order that he's 327 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,360 issued, a presidential order, it's challenged in the lower 328 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,840 courts. It goes to the Supreme Court on 329 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,880 what they call a shadow docket. So, you know, hurry up and and 330 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,320 rule on something that might not be long term. 331 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:41,680 It may only last for a year or two. 332 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,160 They've always ruled in his favour, taking on the Free 333 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:50,280 Press, getting the Free Press to to pay, sometimes many cases in 334 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,960 order to carry on making money, taking on the judges, taking on 335 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,080 the universities. I mean, across the board. 336 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,760 We used to joke, Anushka, that you have to take him seriously 337 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,280 and not literally. It turns out you have to take 338 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,640 him really seriously and literally. 339 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,839 So the question is this for me, I honestly believe, and I think 340 00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:11,240 lots of Americans do, especially the ones who turned up at the No 341 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:12,599 Kings demonstration of the weekends. 342 00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:15,800 We'll talk about that as well. That American democracy is being 343 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,760 eroded, that Lady Liberty is being cut off at the legs. 344 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,240 You know, that the Constitution is being trampled on. 345 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:25,599 Why does only half the country care about that? 346 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,240 And I think we'll put a lot of that to our guests. 347 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,000 The journalist George Packer, who's a staff writer at The 348 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,320 Atlantic, written loads of books, and we'll be able to talk 349 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,280 to a lot of that. Just one final thing, and this 350 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,120 is a history point. One thing I find quite a bit 351 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:43,160 extraordinary is this big row that's taking place over whether 352 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,560 or not the president has the power to send the National Guard 353 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:51,400 into cities is based on something that happened in 1812. 354 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,520 You're going to have to stick with me here for a moment. 355 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:58,760 And it's a supreme, it's a Supreme Court judgement that 356 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,280 took place in 1827 and I hadn't quite clocked, but this is what 357 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,320 they're using as their justification for it. 358 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,280 And basically, and it involves a horse always like a story that 359 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:13,640 that involves a horse, which was that basically Jacob Mott, who 360 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,120 was called up along with everyone else to be part of the 361 00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:22,320 New York militia by by President James Madison at the time and 362 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:26,280 was court martialed and fined because he refused to take part 363 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,680 in it. And they took his horse away and 364 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,280 he sued because he wanted his horse back. 365 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:36,640 And in 1827, the Supreme Court basically ruled the that the 366 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,800 president had the power to make the decision for the New York 367 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:44,800 militia to go into, you know, into cities and to to deal with 368 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,440 this and not this individual. And that was what they kept 369 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:52,360 referencing in a recent court ruling as to why the president 370 00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:57,480 now has the power to go into Chicago, Portland, LA, 371 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:02,200 Washington, DC and so on. And, and just at the moment, and 372 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,920 this is going back and forward in the courts and lower courts 373 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:06,440 have tried to block President Trump. 374 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,840 At the moment, a very major appeals court, the 9th Circuit, 375 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,800 which covers Oregon, but it also covers the whole of California 376 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,840 and a number of other states has said, but he does have the right 377 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,360 to do this. There was 1 dissenting judge. 378 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,200 The legal, the legal argument won't stop there. 379 00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:26,720 But just to just put this in context quickly before we go to 380 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,760 our guests, you can't really compare what's happening in the 381 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,440 US now to what was happening in 1812. 382 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:36,320 I mean, it's a completely different situation and where 383 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,200 there very much was a foreign invasion in the eyes of the 384 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:44,000 Americans and one individual's decision not to take part in 385 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:48,200 that compared to governors of major states saying we don't 386 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:49,720 want you here. Well, you're right. 387 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:51,800 And also the thing, the thing about American history is that 388 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,520 there's not that much of it. I mean, 250 years, but boys, it 389 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,360 raided by both sides, you know, to suit their purposes. 390 00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:01,280 I mean the, you know, the right to bear arms. 391 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,800 The Second Amendment to the Constitution, you know, was was 392 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,960 written at a time when you couldn't buy an, you know, an 393 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,520 M16 and an AR15, which are basically weapons of war, modern 394 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,720 weapons of war for the battlefield. 395 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,760 You know, at at your local gun shop in wherever you were living 396 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,960 in the then United States. Just one of his one other since 397 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,120 we're on history in Russia. One other tiny little point. 398 00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:24,720 I was really struck yesterday by pictures of the East. 399 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:26,960 West Wing of the White House. Not The West Wing that we all 400 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,800 know about, but the East Wing. East Wing, which is where the 401 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,640 First Lady traditionally has her offices being munched away by 402 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:35,960 massive diggers and jackhammers, right? 403 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,320 This is in order to make room for Trump's big beautiful 404 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,760 ballroom now. Fine, right? 405 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:43,440 He's a builder. He likes big beautiful 406 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,520 ballrooms. Let him build his big beautiful 407 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,760 ballroom. Maybe future presidents would 408 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:49,960 appreciate that. But the fact that he has the 409 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:54,200 cojones to use, you know, a Native American term to tear 410 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,920 down bits of the White House, which has, you know, even if 411 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,360 it's for a good reason or I'm not sure whether the ballroom is 412 00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:02,360 a good enough reason. It's, it's it's, you know, it's 413 00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:04,480 causing for very sharp intakes of breath. 414 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,760 And it kind of sums up Trump's attitude towards all of American 415 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,680 history and the Constitution. You know, tear it down and tear 416 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,560 it up if it suits you. Well, let's talk to our guest, 417 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:20,360 George Packer, staff writer at The Atlantic, author of 10 418 00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:23,920 books, about to Be 11, including The Unwinding and In the History 419 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,960 of the New America. And George, next month, a new 420 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:32,720 novel called The Emergency, a political novel, one that you'll 421 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,640 have to tell us maybe doesn't in doesn't involve President Trump 422 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,680 himself, but certainly has a sense of it. 423 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,240 And you've obviously written loads about the impact that this 424 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,840 Trump presidency is having on democracy. 425 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,440 Congrats on the new book. Can I just start by asking you 426 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:49,960 something? I've very recently moved to 427 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:55,840 Washington, DC from the UK. And of course, everywhere I 428 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,120 look, I sort of almost can't believe some of the things that 429 00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:00,240 the administration are talking about or doing. 430 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,440 But I've, I've heard you talk and I think it's really 431 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,200 interesting about the fact that you don't necessarily feel 432 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,080 what's going on as an individual living in this country. 433 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,880 It's not like the impact of democracy being eroded in the 434 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,840 way that many feel it is, is part of our everyday lives. 435 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,720 Tell, tell me a bit about that. And also, does that make a 436 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,560 difference to how everyone's reacting to it? 437 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,440 Thanks Anoushka. This is not 1933. 438 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,560 You know, we, we don't suddenly have a a dark curtain falling 439 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,120 over our lives. Life goes on. 440 00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:35,960 I can criticize the Trump administration every day and not 441 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:41,320 get a knock at the door because I don't look Latino. 442 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,600 I can walk down the street without fear of being grabbed 443 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:46,600 and pulled into a van by masked men. 444 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:52,000 So unless you are in a small group of people who are maybe 445 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,680 federal officials who've fallen afoul of Trump, or, or if you're 446 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:01,360 a migrant who might have some legal issue or even no legal 447 00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:05,720 issue, you don't feel that you personally are affected. 448 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,160 And that's a problem. It's a huge problem because that 449 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,920 means the vast majority of Americans can go about their 450 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,000 lives and sort of say this isn't really a big deal. 451 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,520 It's not happening to me. It's not happening to anyone I 452 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,680 know. I don't know what an Inspector 453 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,280 General is. I don't know what the Eastern 454 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,840 District of Virginia is and why it matters. 455 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:31,120 So why should we imagine that something as as huge as a threat 456 00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:34,160 to democracy is even happening? But it is happening. 457 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,840 It's just not happening to to you, to us. 458 00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:40,720 And that means you have to have an imagination. 459 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,200 You have to be able to sift through all the information we 460 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,360 all get in order to figure out what's true. 461 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,680 And you also have to care. You still have to believe in 462 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,640 democracy in order for this to matter to you. 463 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,720 But there are a lot of other Americans who may have voted for 464 00:23:54,720 --> 00:24:00,400 him, who watching what he's doing, including the brutal way 465 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,680 in which immigration is being enforced. 466 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,360 It just happened in downtown New York, in lower Manhattan 467 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,480 yesterday. It's going to keep happening in 468 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,080 New York will be a big target for ICE. 469 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:12,800 They don't. They're not easy. 470 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,640 With that. There is a residual sense that 471 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,880 maybe there is something called due process. 472 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,440 Maybe there is something called common decency. 473 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,640 Maybe we don't want to see our president airing AI videos of 474 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:29,160 himself piloting a fighter jet and dumping an immense load of 475 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,160 excrement on people in Times Square. 476 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,840 You know it it. We don't know exactly where the 477 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,840 people are because we haven't had an election since last year. 478 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,480 And we will find a lot more out next year. 479 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:45,480 But I think we, I was at the no pings rally on Saturday, the 480 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,040 nationwide rallies. I was at one in a little town in 481 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,360 upstate New York. There were hundreds, maybe 482 00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:53,360 thousands of people in a very small town and across the 483 00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:57,200 country, possibly 7 million. That's a lot of people to come 484 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,160 out on a Saturday to demonstrate. 485 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:04,880 I think there is still a a kind of archaic attachment to this 486 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,400 thing called the Constitution and democracy that may get woken 487 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,640 up because Trump knows no limits. 488 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,400 But do you? But, you know, that resistance 489 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,880 that you're talking about? I, I see it all the time. 490 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,480 I see in terms of the disagreement on this, the divide 491 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,280 is more stark than anything I've ever seen. 492 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,160 People will either tell you how much they love him or they, they 493 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,960 are so upset about his presidency. 494 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:31,520 It's, you know, unreal. The reality is that, you know, 495 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:36,120 70 million people can feel the way you feel, but 77 million 496 00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:40,680 could still vote for him. And I guess my question is, I 497 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,800 think you've written before that democracy and America are 498 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,760 inextricable. Has that changed? 499 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:51,920 And if it has changed, is there a way to put it back in the box 500 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,760 at the end of this? I fear that the the idea of 501 00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,200 America about our national identity as based on the first 502 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,320 words of the Declaration of Independence, which to me is the 503 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,680 the foundation of the country, that those words have lost some 504 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,280 of their hold on people, especially young people who 505 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,840 don't think they're true, who don't think they mean anything. 506 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,880 They don't think the country stands for that. 507 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:19,840 And that's on the right and the left. 508 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,880 Both sides have weakened that hold of those universal 509 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,960 democratic values of equality, self government, liberty, the 510 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,920 pursuit of happiness. And so how do you restore it? 511 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,040 I I don't have an answer for that, that that's an enormous 512 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,000 question. One way is for government to 513 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,040 work on behalf of people. If people feel that their 514 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,600 government is this far away thing that is either choking a 515 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,480 life out of them or indifferent to their problems, why would 516 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,520 they think democracy is the only system that that's worth 517 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,720 supporting? They may think it isn't working 518 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,520 for me. So maybe we should try a little 519 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,840 authoritarianism and see if Trump can lower the price of 520 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,080 eggs and and raise the stock market. 521 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,440 So, yeah, it's it worries me a great deal. 522 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:11,680 And of course, this isn't new. We've always had this vexed 523 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,840 attachment to those ideals. We've often betrayed them. 524 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:20,440 But we've always returned to a notion of who we are as a people 525 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,480 and that we are a democratic people. 526 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,200 I don't know how you get back to that, but because I've never 527 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,800 lived through a period in my life that in which it was so at 528 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,280 risk, but it is at risk. I guess one thing also is that 529 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,760 this sort of idea of democracy, although it is, you know, we 530 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,040 both understand what it means, is what does it actually look 531 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,760 like for a democracy to be eroded? 532 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,640 What are the specific things that are happening at the moment 533 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,480 that worry you the most? I mean, the most dramatic has 534 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,160 been the president using the Department of Justice to 535 00:27:55,160 --> 00:28:00,000 prosecute his his enemies quite nakedly ordering prosecutors to 536 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,560 go after a list of people he considers his enemies, his 537 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,440 persecutors, regardless of whether career prosecutors or 538 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,920 even political appointees found that there was no 'cause. 539 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,560 Which is what's happened again and again. 540 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,760 He's just gone through one after another till he finds one 541 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,480 corrupt hack who's willing to use the tools of the law, the 542 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:23,760 immense power of the state to go after a political enemy for for 543 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:28,320 no legal reason. And that to me is maybe the 544 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:35,560 single most vivid example of how we're seeing the abuse of power 545 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:41,160 in the most dramatic way. Once you use the state, which is 546 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,480 so powerful to settle scores, there's really, I mean, where's 547 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,720 the limit then? Who won't you go after? 548 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,000 I think he will continue to do it because he's gotten away with 549 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,280 it. He's found people to do it. 550 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,320 He's found people in civil society, whether university 551 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:04,240 presidents, corporate CE OS or law firm executives to cooperate 552 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,760 with extortion schemes, essentially with him demanding 553 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:12,080 certain ideological conformity in exchange for federal money. 554 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,200 So again, if you if if you find that there's no push back, 555 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,960 there's no resistance, you push harder and push harder again. 556 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:21,800 And that's what he's been doing all year. 557 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,320 Because I think a good deal of the country is sort of in shock, 558 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,720 is not doesn't know how to respond. 559 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,520 And he has been on the offensive from the moment he got back into 560 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,680 the White House. And so it it, it requires an 561 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,040 understanding of what's happening, of a lucid sense that 562 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,960 this isn't just a guy who's a little out of control. 563 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:48,040 This isn't a direct rise of an authoritarian regime that needs 564 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:52,680 to be resisted if it is not going to permanently really for 565 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,080 a generation or more, as Orban has done in Hungary. 566 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,840 You mentioned him, Anouska or Matt, I can't remember which. 567 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,880 As Orban has done as Erdogan has done. 568 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,360 Once you go down that road, it's extremely hard to reverse 569 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,880 course. Can I ask you, George, why, Why 570 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,160 you think the Republican Party, you know, the Grand Old Party, 571 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,320 the party of Abraham Lincoln, of Teddy Roosevelt, who's put up 572 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,040 with this? Yeah, well, there's a long list 573 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,920 of Republican former office holders who are now in other 574 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,320 lines of work because they stood up to Trump. 575 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,760 And it seems that for a politician losing office, losing 576 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,600 an election is death. And so they'll do anything, 577 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:38,240 including betray their oath, betray their commitment to their 578 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,080 constituents and betray everything that's decent about 579 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,800 being in politics in order to stay in office. 580 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,160 And that means doing whatever Trump wants because he made the 581 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,560 price so high. And so, yeah, the party has 582 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,320 become it's, it's a bunch of cowards, I'm sorry to say. 583 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,000 It's a bunch of cowards who have become his sycophants and his. 584 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,760 Yes. And it's, we see it over and 585 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,480 over. And that is the other half of 586 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,200 our constitutional problem. Congress is no longer acting 587 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:07,720 like a separate branch of government. 588 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,320 So there's only an executive. And I just wonder to what extent 589 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,960 this is exacerbated by the way, you know, American elections 590 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,360 take place that you have, you know, most, the vast majority of 591 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,200 congressional seats aren't even competitive between Democrats 592 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,600 and Republicans. They're competitive within the 593 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,440 Democratic Party, as we we saw in New York or within the 594 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,040 Republican Party, which is when you can mobilize that Trumpian 595 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,720 threat to not get someone, you know, nominated. 596 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:37,040 So the combination of the primary cycle, which really 597 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,880 favours the kind of people who shout loudest in the party, the 598 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,680 algorithm of social media and the way cable television works 599 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,000 where you're either with one side or the other side. 600 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,920 And if you look at Fox TV and MSNBC on each day, you might as 601 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,400 well be living in different galaxies, let alone countries. 602 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,400 All that conspires to make it more divided and more tribal. 603 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,440 You're right, when you have a two party system and a first 604 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:07,080 past the post electoral system and politics has become 605 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:12,160 absolutely tribal and in which there really is no independence 606 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,720 allowed for politicians, they have to be party men or party 607 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,480 women. You're going to have a system in 608 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,920 which nothing can get done because the two sides only see 609 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,720 victory in the others defeat not just in the election but in 610 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,480 governing. If there were to be a compromise 611 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:29,720 bill of any kind, Trump would hate it. 612 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,440 He doesn't want to compromise. He wants to exert power. 613 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,600 And and the Democrats now are in a position where they have very 614 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,800 little power, which makes it seem as if there's no opposition 615 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,600 to Trump at all, except for these rather dignified and 616 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,840 earnest rallies every few months called No King. 617 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,840 Joe, just a a final question for me. 618 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,360 Are you hopeful at all? It doesn't sound like it. 619 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:57,680 I mean, if the American people wake up to what's happening and 620 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,640 there is still a broad middle, what we're describing are the 621 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,440 extremes. They're the people you hear on 622 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,560 social media. They're the people who make 623 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:09,480 primary campaigns A misery for anyone who wants to think 624 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,840 independently. But there is still a middle that 625 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:17,640 can be persuaded and that swings between elections. 626 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,600 We've seen that over and over in the past 20 years. 627 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,280 If those Americans understand the gravity of the situation, 628 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,920 that this isn't just one more cycle with one party in power, 629 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,720 then I think in the next election, in the midterms, if 630 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,120 it's free and fair. And that's a big if right now. 631 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,560 And then again in 28 with the presidential election. 632 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:44,000 Public opinion is the last barrier to authoritarianism in 633 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,240 this country. And we haven't really heard from 634 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,800 the public. But the pendulum swings wider 635 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:50,840 every time, doesn't it? And isn't that the danger? 636 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,880 You go to the further to the left, which means a reaction 637 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,200 from the right, and the middle ground actually gets squeezed in 638 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,560 all this. Well, Joe Biden was actually the 639 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,160 middle ground. He was the most centrist 640 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,360 Democrat running for president in 2020. 641 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,199 You remember there was a whole array of other candidates to his 642 00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:11,360 left, and they all lost, which shows that at that point, the 643 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,199 Democratic Party was sane enough to understand that to beat 644 00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:17,040 Trump, they couldn't go to their fringe. 645 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,760 They had to occupy the center. But Biden was a failed president 646 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,800 for a lot of reasons that we know. 647 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:29,199 And Trump came back with an even more vengeful retributive 648 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,480 politics than before and with a more extreme base than before 649 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:38,199 because social media cable news had made turned everyone into 650 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,239 into an extreme partisan. So how do you undo that? 651 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,840 You know, this is a much longer conversation. 652 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,400 I wish I had the answer and I would put it into practice 653 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:49,800 immediately because I'm really worried the. 654 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,480 Extreme centre. The extreme centre, George. 655 00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:53,639 That's what we need. Old. 656 00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:56,000 Centre, the radical centre. The radical centre. 657 00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:59,160 Exactly. George, thank you so much. 658 00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,640 George Packer, author of Many Books of The Atlantic, thank you 659 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,840 very much for joining us. Thanks for having me. 660 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:12,360 So that was George Packer, Matt, I would say not loads of hope 661 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:13,680 there. Are you hopeful? 662 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,760 I don't know, the jury's out. I do think that, you know, the 663 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,040 centre ground, the, the, the numbers of people are kind of 664 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,400 willing to engage in that very boring but rather important 665 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,120 concept of consensus is dwindling. 666 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,440 And remember, this is a country that, you know, had a civil war. 667 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,400 America lost more people in the civil war in percentage and real 668 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,960 terms than it did in any other conflict it ever fought. 669 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,920 And that that civil war still haunts the country. 670 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,960 When I first got to America, the beginning of the noughties, 671 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,760 everyone said to me, oh, you know, this is a bipartisan 672 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,200 effort. It was all about Democrats and 673 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,760 Republicans working together, even though they were frictions 674 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,360 at the time. But I think that's all gone. 675 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,280 I think there's more political capital to be gained out of 676 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,360 division, and that includes the left. 677 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,920 And let's you know this, this race in New York between Zoran 678 00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:03,080 Mandami and Andrew Cuomo, who's going to run as an independent, 679 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,960 that's so fascinating because that's about the same issue 680 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,560 playing out inside the Democratic Party. 681 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,000 And I don't know. So I'd say, is America going to 682 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,120 be a democracy in 20 years time from now? 683 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,480 Maybe, but probably somewhat diminished to what it should be. 684 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:21,640 What a depressing thing to end on. 685 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:24,600 We will. We will certainly be talking 686 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,280 about that New York race over the next couple of weeks. 687 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,280 I'm already planning when we're going to go up and cover it. 688 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:33,400 So there'll be lots on that to come. 689 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,080 But that is it for this week from Trump World. 690 00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:40,560 We will see you next Wednesday. We'll see you next Wednesday, as 691 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,840 we always do from Anushka in Washington and me in London. 692 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:45,040 Have a fabulous week.