1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:04,080 It's like a Marvel Universe version of of the US government 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:05,800 right now. Like you're like what? 3 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:09,760 Why are we in this movie instead of in an actual real political 4 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:11,840 world? We are speaking at a moment when 5 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,040 the federal government has shut down over Congresses ability to 6 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:16,960 even keep the government running. 7 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,760 Where is Congress right now when some people say we need it most? 8 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,680 I think Americans do genuinely believe that if Trump says it's 9 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:25,920 in the Constitution, it is, and if it isn't, it isn't. 10 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,520 But the state is me, right? That is the kind of absurd 11 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:31,480 political decay that we're in the midst of. 12 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,760 Hello and welcome to Trump World. 13 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:41,400 I'm Matt. I'm Anishka and the US 14 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,240 government has shut down, but I have not of. 15 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,000 Course you haven't. I wonder if you've noticed the 16 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,760 shutdown where you are. I mean, lots and lots of people 17 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:50,880 are. If you're trying to get into a 18 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,760 National Park, you're going to notice the shutdown because 19 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:55,680 it'll be closed, for instance. And we'll be talking about the 20 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,960 shutdown later. But we've got lots of stuff 21 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,080 coming up, haven't we? Yeah, we're going to be talking 22 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,760 to the most revered political historian of her time, Jill 23 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:09,120 Lepore, about all of this. She's going to join us later, 24 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,840 but first I think we do need to focus on what is happening here 25 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,000 at the moment. Well, there's loads, right? 26 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,920 So there's the shutdown. And, and just to reflect briefly 27 00:01:18,960 --> 00:01:23,200 on the week that we've had already on Monday, President 28 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,080 Trump announced his 20 point plan for peace in the Middle 29 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,560 East, including Gaza. We'll talk about that on 30 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,160 Tuesday. There was this extraordinary, 31 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,720 unprecedented gathering of the top brass of the world's 32 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,440 mightiest military in the history of military existence, 33 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,720 summoning them to the Marine base in Quantico for World War 34 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,840 Three. No, for a war against Flab. 35 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,840 We'll talk about that. But let's start with a shutdown. 36 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:51,520 So what have you noticed? How does it feel? 37 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:52,880 What? What are people saying around 38 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:54,200 you in Washington about the shutdown? 39 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:59,880 Well, I think it's worth saying first up that shutdowns are 40 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:03,000 things that are threatened every year in the USI do think this 41 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:04,760 one is different, and we'll talk about why. 42 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,880 And there are lots of things that you don't notice. 43 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,160 In fact, even some of the museums mats are very much open 44 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,720 because we've already been down trying to film where they're 45 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,120 closed and it turns out they can stay open for a few more days. 46 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,400 But look, in Washington, DC perhaps more than anywhere else, 47 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,240 I think you do feel it because the biggest impact is for 48 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:27,280 federal workers 750,000 expected to be furloughed. 49 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,360 A lot of those federal workers live here in DC. 50 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:36,480 And, and the reason I think it feels different this time is the 51 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,520 rhetoric we're getting from Donald Trump, the idea that he 52 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,360 could go further, that he could use this as an excuse to not 53 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,480 just furlough federal workers, but to sack a number of them. 54 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,160 It's a, it's a, I've not been here for a shutdown before. 55 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,480 It's a story that it obviously doesn't affect people in the UK 56 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:56,920 hugely. So it it doesn't get hugely 57 00:02:56,920 --> 00:03:00,200 reported in the UK but it's totally dominant here across all 58 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,000 the media this morning. I think we should also explain 59 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,160 just what it means if you say shutdown in America. 60 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:06,240 Everyone knows what you're talking about. 61 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,080 But essentially what it means for those who don't know, is 62 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,800 that the the, the, the Congress, the Democrats and the 63 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,840 Republicans in Congress cannot agree on what funds the 64 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,480 functioning of the federal government going forward. 65 00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:23,960 And you know, this needs to have a proper majority in the Senate. 66 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,680 Crucially, it needs a majority of 60 votes, the so-called super 67 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:29,960 majority. And you can only get that super 68 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,600 majority if the Democrats or a certain number of Democrats vote 69 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:35,960 with the Republicans. That was great. 70 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:37,560 Matt, how often have you covered this? 71 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,960 Well, I literally half a dozen times and, and the first time I 72 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,520 covered it, it seemed like we were at the, you know, at the 73 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:45,160 edge of an abyss, the end of the world. 74 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:46,520 The federal government shuts down. 75 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,360 What are we going to do? Forget about parks and, you 76 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,040 know, visiting museums in Washington? 77 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,840 It was about, you know, checks being Social Security checks 78 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,680 being issued by the government, which is very serious because 79 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,400 lots of people rely on them. Millions upon millions of people 80 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,400 rely on them. So that would have been delayed. 81 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,640 I mean, obviously military expenditure and federal police 82 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,800 expenditure and deployment is exempt from that. 83 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,760 But there's an awful lot of stuff that gets covered by the 84 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:16,120 federal government, the biggest expenditure government on planet 85 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,640 Earth, I'm, I'm assuming bigger even than China. 86 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,040 And, and this stuff just doesn't get covered. 87 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,240 And the last time we had a shutdown, which was seven years 88 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:27,040 ago under Donald J Trump, it lasted for I think six weeks 89 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,440 over the Christmas period. And you do notice things 90 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,600 gradually, you know, changing, not happening. 91 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,280 The wheels of government grind to a halt. 92 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:40,880 But crucially, Anderska, this time round, there is a very 93 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:45,560 important sort of existential political calculation at play 94 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,320 here. So if you remember, in March, 95 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,600 just after Donald Trump was inaugurated, there was another 96 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,480 threat of a shutdown. And it was averted because Chuck 97 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,080 Schumer, who's the the Democrat, Senate Minority Leader in the 98 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,320 Senate, together with nine other senators who were Democrats, 99 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,680 decided to vote with the Republicans to keep government 100 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,800 going to prevent the shutdown. The firestorm that erupted in 101 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:13,640 the Democratic Party against him for doing so was extraordinary. 102 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,600 Schumer the traitor, Schumer the sellout. 103 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,760 He's obviously had a a conversion on the road to the 104 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,320 next shutdown, which has just happened because he's voted 105 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,200 together with those other Democrats to shut the government 106 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,600 down. This is based on the calculation 107 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,560 that it's going to be that that they will reap the rewards of 108 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:36,080 shutting the government down and that Donald Trump will be blamed 109 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,520 for it. But it's a massive risk because 110 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,520 it's equally possible, and this is obviously Trump's 111 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,040 calculation, that the Democrats will be blamed for it come the 112 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,720 midterm elections. And he might also use this, by 113 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,160 the way, as an excuse, as he has threatened to sack hundreds of 114 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:51,880 thousands of federal workers. Yeah. 115 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:53,720 I mean, we'll see that. That's the kind of most 116 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,400 significant bit for me, what he actually does on that, whether 117 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:58,800 he uses it in that way. But that same game has already 118 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,480 completely erupted. I was actually, you know, 119 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,600 walking around the Capitol building yesterday trying to 120 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,520 speak to politicians who were involved in this. 121 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:09,120 And they were saying things like, you know, it's not our 122 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,120 fault. Democrats were saying because we 123 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,240 have been waving our hands essentially for weeks to try and 124 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,080 have a negotiation about this. And the Republicans have said 125 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,000 that they don't want to have a negotiation. 126 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,520 The Republicans are now saying, just vote to pause this, then we 127 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,600 can have the negotiation. And they're saying it's a bit 128 00:06:24,840 --> 00:06:26,800 late. I mean, the, the, the crux of it 129 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,640 is that because of that super majority that's required, this 130 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,480 is the one opportunity a year for a minority party to actually 131 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,680 exert some influence. The Democrats are particularly 132 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:41,560 focused on cuts to Medicaid, which is medical care for some 133 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,640 of the poorest people in America and other things around 134 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:46,760 healthcare. And so they're holding out on 135 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:48,680 signing off the entire budget because of that. 136 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,400 Donald Trump's response is to say this is all about giving 137 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,080 free healthcare to illegal aliens. 138 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,720 I mean, the group that he's talking about don't actually 139 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,320 qualify for some of the benefits that Democrats are trying to 140 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:01,880 hold. What 1 interesting person I 141 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,520 bumped into was Senator Chris Murphy. 142 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,120 Oh yes, very outspoken from Connecticut. 143 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:07,480 He. We. 144 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:09,040 Like Chris Murphy? Yeah. 145 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,120 He had already stood up. He gives good copy. 146 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,080 He'd already stood up in the chamber and he'd made this 147 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:19,200 argument that it was not his responsibility to vote for this 148 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,640 kind of authoritarian crackdown on democracy that we were seeing 149 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:24,760 from Donald Trump. I mean, when I when I bumped 150 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,520 into him, he sort of gave a slightly more measured answer, 151 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:29,560 which was what he was doing was exactly what you were talking 152 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:31,360 about. The blame game that this is the 153 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,320 Republicans fault whilst they're saying it's the Democrats fault. 154 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,720 It will be interesting to see what the public think of this 155 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:40,760 and also when it starts to affect the public. 156 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,800 If it goes on for some time, that will become more and more 157 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:45,680 acute. But also it goes to the deeper 158 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,400 point, which we'll obviously put to Jill Lepore, our guest, in a 159 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,720 minute, the deeper point of the nature of power and governance 160 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,440 in the era of Donald Trump. So the suspicion, I think quite 161 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,840 rightly, is that Donald Trump wants to bolster his executive 162 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,360 powers as a president even more than any previous president has 163 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,120 done, you know, by governing with these, you know, emergency 164 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:12,400 declarations and decrees, these, you know, presidential missives 165 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:14,680 that are basically signed by a Sharpie pen. 166 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:16,920 He's done an awful lot of that. We'll talk about that as well. 167 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,920 But also sidelining Congress and and rightly, the Democrats and 168 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,880 even some Republicans ever so quietly in the dead of night, 169 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:28,240 are saying the Constitution is all about Congress making the 170 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,280 laws and essentially running the country. 171 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,520 But the chief executive, the president overseeing that 172 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,280 running, making sure that Congress doesn't get out of 173 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,640 hand, well, the exact opposite has happened. 174 00:08:38,919 --> 00:08:42,720 And frankly, Congress has not really been there to provide the 175 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,080 checks and balances it is supposed to provide for a 176 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:51,360 president who is accused by the Democrats and suspected by some 177 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,840 quiet Republicans of trying to rule more like a monarch than a 178 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,480 Republican president with a small arm. 179 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:03,080 And I think and so, so this gets to the very heart of, you know, 180 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,840 of, of what who governs the Republic, who's got all the 181 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:07,640 power. And just briefly, I mean, 182 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,200 Schumer back in March was saying, well, if we if we vote 183 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,000 to shut down the the federal government, in other words, if 184 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,200 we vote against this, this emergency budget measure, we 185 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,840 will have no say in how Donald Trump uses his increasingly 186 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:24,960 authoritarian powers in order to sack people, you know, or corral 187 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,000 the federal agencies to his to his will. 188 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,320 And at least by, you know, by allowing the thing to continue 189 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,280 while Congress carries on with some kind of role. 190 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,600 But frankly, it's a it's a losing argument. 191 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,240 And the Democrats are caught between their very angry base, 192 00:09:38,560 --> 00:09:42,120 their own party political foot soldiers are saying, hang on a 193 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,120 minute, You've got to stand up to Donald Trump. 194 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,520 Don't be such wusses. Don't roll over to Trump and the 195 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,560 general electorate that might well blame them for what is 196 00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:53,520 about to happen. All of which has some echoes of 197 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,320 the challenges facing the Labour Party right now. 198 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,760 I was watching from here to see Keir Starmer try to walk that 199 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:02,720 thin line. And yeah, the Democrats seem to 200 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:07,440 have a very similar and perhaps somewhat amplified, you know, 201 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:12,040 calculation to do. Let's just, if you're happy to 202 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,200 talk about Gaza for a bit because obviously we've had this 203 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,360 situation this week. I was at the White House on 204 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,920 Monday where we got the. Comprehensive, that was, that 205 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:22,760 was quite a that was a big moment, wasn't it, on Monday? 206 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:24,600 And you would you would you watched it all in the Oval 207 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,800 Office. I did not watch it in the Oval 208 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:28,560 Office. You went in the Oval Office. 209 00:10:28,560 --> 00:10:30,920 I was, it was happening while we were on air, Matt. 210 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,480 I had to be standing in the outside area of the White House 211 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,800 talking down the barrel to Channel 4 News because it was 212 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,840 happening as I actually had to decide whether to go into this 213 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,400 press conference or not. And I was standing there, really 214 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,280 wanted to go in to watch the moment, try and catch Donald 215 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,400 Trump's eyes with the question. And I was making that 216 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,400 calculation that we often do. And I thought there's a chance 217 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,200 that I then won't be able to be on air during Channel 4 News. 218 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,720 He was looking for you, Anushka. They didn't take a single 219 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,120 question, either him or Netanyahu. 220 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,840 And look, I'll, I'll talk in a bit about what I think the 221 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,280 reaction has been here, but just tell me, I mean, you've been 222 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:10,280 following this for so long. What was the reaction in Israel 223 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,880 and Gaza? Whenever I hear something, you 224 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,080 know, like Donald, someone like Donald Trump's here on a Monday 225 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:19,400 as he did, this is a new plan. It's a 20 point plan and it, and 226 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,200 it bats away some of the crazy ideas like there won't be 227 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,400 annexation of the West Bank, there won't be annexation of the 228 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,200 Gaza Strip. There'll be no new Israeli 229 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:27,840 settlements inside the Gaza Strip. 230 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,560 We're going to withdraw Israeli troops, etcetera, etcetera. 231 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,640 And this is a some sort of path towards Palestinian self 232 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,200 determination, as the plan says, and Palestinian statehood, the 233 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,920 inner optimist that is still just about got a pulse says 234 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:44,840 yippee. Finally a bit of a breakthrough. 235 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:46,920 Why not? You know, Donald Trump, he likes 236 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,600 to throw spaghetti against the wall, but maybe this noodle has 237 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,800 actually stuck. And then of course, and you 238 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,040 know, and then you hear Netanyahu looked a little bit. 239 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:59,280 I would, I thought Ashen faced and and and improved the plan 240 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,360 through gritted teeth because of course he's got to sell this 241 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,360 stuff to his own cabinet as Motrich and Ben Gavir first and 242 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,080 foremost. And then you look at the detail 243 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,800 and you realise that although it's 20 points, there were 244 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,680 literally dozens of points that are really fuzzy. 245 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,240 And then I spoke to people in Israel. 246 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,920 First of all had been that we had a former Brigadier General 247 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,920 who was the commander of the Gaza battalion when they had 248 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:27,480 one, a permanent one who was very close still to Netanyahu. 249 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,360 And he said, hang on a minute, Matt Frey. 250 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,120 This does not mean a Palestinian state. 251 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,520 We did not sign up to that. This does not mean the 252 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,680 withdrawal of Israeli troops. We did not from Gaza. 253 00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:39,960 We did not sign up to that. And and suddenly you think, 254 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,800 well, hang on a minute, there's a fundamental disagreement here. 255 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,840 And then you talk to people in Gaza, as I did, or indeed to 256 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,200 sort of senior Palestinians, including one who was a former 257 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:51,960 chief, one of the chief Palestinian negotiators for the 258 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,720 Oslo agreement. And he said, look, this is this 259 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,280 is full of holes and there's no way they can agree to this 260 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,000 stuff, although it's a kind of starting point. 261 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,000 It's so watered down and wishy washy. 262 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,560 It's kind of where we were years ago. 263 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,240 And it doesn't really solidify the one thing that needs to be 264 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,240 solidified from a Palestinian point of view, which is a 265 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:19,080 credible, viable pathway to self determination and statehood as 266 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,400 recognized by the British government just last week that 267 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:26,160 the Israelis were respect. It's there's nothing to 268 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,560 guarantee any of that. So you're back to a kind of 269 00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:30,840 version of the Abraham Accords. And we know how that ended. 270 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,400 Everyone in the Gulf was happy and the Israelis were happy, but 271 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,120 the Palestinians weren't. Yeah, I mean, it's worth saying 272 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,160 that the exact phrase you've just said, you know, credible 273 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,240 pathway to self determination and statehood was literally in 274 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,840 the 20 points. Netanyahu stands up in the White 275 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:47,880 House. He accepts this agreement, which 276 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:52,280 we can both see .19 includes that pathway to statehood. 277 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,480 He, of course, doesn't take any questions, which a bit like when 278 00:13:55,480 --> 00:14:00,520 you were in Alaska with Putin and Trump, the first signs were 279 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:04,680 there that this wasn't quite going to work, and we both knew 280 00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:05,920 it. Yeah, Matt, because both of us 281 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:07,840 were in New York for the UN General Assembly. 282 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:09,960 We listened to Netanyahu on the stage there. 283 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,920 I mean, did that sound like a man who's open to the idea of a 284 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,680 future statehood for the Palestinian people? 285 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:20,360 He said his argument was that it would be like giving Qaeda 286 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,680 estate a mile from New York and he was talking about 287 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,680 Palestinians at that point, not about Hamas specifically. 288 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:28,480 So. So immediately you think, OK, 289 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,440 there are problems here. Then on the other side there 290 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,160 was, you know, the Arab country seemed happy with it, or so 291 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,760 Donald Trump said. But behind the scenes, reports 292 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,000 here suggesting officials were absolutely furious because 293 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,440 Netanyahu had managed over six hours on Sunday with Jared 294 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,800 Kushner, Donald Trump's son-in-law, and Steve Witkoff, 295 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,640 the Middle East envoy, to edit it and in particular to edit the 296 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,960 timetable of a withdrawal from Israel. 297 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,640 Of course, what Donald Trump will do is to blame Hamas if 298 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:00,920 this doesn't work. But clearly there are lots of 299 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,200 problems in there. I had this fascinating chat 300 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,840 before it actually happened with a guy called Aaron David Miller. 301 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,320 He's a Middle East analyst. For many years, he was a 302 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,840 negotiator on the Middle East for Republican and Democratic 303 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,000 administrations. And I said to him, are you 304 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,240 optimistic? And he was like, I just don't 305 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,840 deal with optimism and pessimism in this, particularly as this 306 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:23,600 war's grinding on into its third year. 307 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,960 He said there's not been a single consequence for either 308 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,680 side imposed by either the Europeans, the Americans who 309 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,760 could actually do it, or the Arab countries. 310 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:39,000 And he basically said that the most hopeful he had ever been on 311 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,640 Palestine and Israel was in 2000. 312 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,840 And then the gap was the size of a Grand Canyon and it's only got 313 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,760 wider sense. And he said every single comma, 314 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,600 every single line is now going to be argued about. 315 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,560 And so he he didn't, he didn't say pessimistic. 316 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:56,400 But I have to say, that was the tone I felt. 317 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,040 I, I, I just would add one thing. 318 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:03,040 I mean, for Trump to have gone as far to the mainstream on this 319 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,920 because broadly speaking, these rough outlines of his 20 point 320 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:07,920 plan have been around for a very, very long time. 321 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,440 For Trump to get away from Mar a Lago on Sea, which is was his 322 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,480 vision of Gaza when he first came to power. 323 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:20,320 For him to say very clearly to the Israelis, you can not annex 324 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,680 the West Bank, which is what many Israeli cabinet members and 325 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:25,800 quite a few members of the public were fantasizing about. 326 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,720 That's quite important and shouldn't be underestimated. 327 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:30,960 He's no longer on the wacky fringe of this. 328 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,760 He's gone to the mainstream, although I'm sure he hates that 329 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,160 word. The the measure to which the 330 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,400 measure to which this thing is unacceptable to the Palestinians 331 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,760 will be seen by, if it's approved in the Israeli cabinet, 332 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,280 by the extremists. If they can go along with this, 333 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,480 even though Berkeley says you cannot annex the West Bank, then 334 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,880 they will have to smell something very fishy. 335 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,960 The final point is this. The bloke they had, you know, 336 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,880 they had brought out of, you know, Middle Eastern retirement, 337 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,760 as it were, who's dusted off occasionally for, for great 338 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,040 things. One Tony Blair, our former Prime 339 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,880 Minister. Of course, on paper it looks 340 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,079 good. What Blair who solved, you know, 341 00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:16,680 the, the Good Friday Agreement. Blair, who, you know, worked in 342 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,560 the Middle East after he was Prime Minister, tried to, you 343 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,839 know, cobble together some kind of follow up to the Oslo 344 00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:24,680 Accords. You know, Blair knows what he's 345 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:26,520 talking about. He's respected by Palestinians 346 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,240 and by Israelis and by the especially by the Gulf states. 347 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,760 Well, when I asked this senior Palestinian yesterday about 348 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:38,000 Blair, his response was disastrous idea, let him stay at 349 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,160 home. We don't want Blair. 350 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,840 And that is an opinion that is echoed not just amongst 351 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,200 Palestinians, a broad spectrum of them, but also in his own 352 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,320 Labour Party, by Labour backbenchers. 353 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,080 You know who asked about this at the Liverpool conference? 354 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,200 So I don't know what you know, if if Blair is the key to this. 355 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,480 What we're basically talking about is a a broader version of 356 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,000 the Abraham Accords. I mean, it's just with just on 357 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,200 that. So the idea is Trump obviously 358 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,320 as chair of the Board of Peace and then Blair as one of the 359 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,440 committee members. And So what I did yesterday was 360 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,320 just poured over polling. I've been talking to polling 361 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,520 company Gallup about a number of things. 362 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,080 And they've done polling both of Israeli and Palestinians and 363 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:18,960 also of Americans on all of this. 364 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,320 And I was trying to think what what will people make of Trump 365 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:25,120 and Blair and, and approval ratings among Palestinians. 366 00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:27,360 And I have to say they can only poll at the moment people in the 367 00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:30,200 West Bank and E Jerusalem, they can't get into Gaza. 368 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,000 But nevertheless, approval ratings for the American 369 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,080 administration and leadership are at 7% at the moment. 370 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:40,560 And then I was saying, well, how can I try and understand what 371 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:42,960 they might think of Blair? And what we did was we looked 372 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:47,360 back at 2007 when Tony Blair was in his final year as UK Prime 373 00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:51,480 Minister, and disapproval for the UK leadership at the time 374 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,680 was 81%. It was the highest it had been I 375 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,480 think and has been ever since, which was when he was leader. 376 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,720 So that but but just on one slightly just attached point to 377 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,680 that is American attitudes have shifted on Israel quite heavily. 378 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,800 There is still more sympathy towards towards Israelis and 379 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,720 Palestinians, but the numbers have closer than they have ever 380 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,000 been before. And for the first time in 381 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:19,160 Gallup's polling history, with this sympathy with the Israelis 382 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,520 since October the 7th is below 50%. 383 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,560 I think it's reached 33% for Palestinians. 384 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:26,960 And Donald Trump is the one person in the world who has the 385 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,480 power to influence Benjamin Netanyahu because for any 386 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,920 Israeli Prime Minister, what the American, that relationship with 387 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,720 America is so important. At home. 388 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,240 He was pretty angry, at least outwardly. 389 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:41,720 I don't know whether he really knew or not about the Qatar 390 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,360 strike. And as you say, he has stopped 391 00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:47,320 the annexation announcement of the West Bank. 392 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,400 So, so it does still stand with Trump, but but chillingly, I 393 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,160 thought on one day Donald Trump made absolutely clear, if Hamas 394 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,840 don't agree to this, Benjamin, you've got my back to go as far 395 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:01,840 as you want to go. And that was really scary. 396 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,840 They've already levelled the place, 80% of it is rubble. 397 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,440 You know, they've already killed 67,000 people. 398 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,760 I mean, there's not much else they can do when it comes to 399 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:11,560 unleashing hell that they haven't done already. 400 00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:15,080 Anushka, I don't know about you. The thing that really got me 401 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:19,720 interested this week and raised a few eyebrows on my head in a 402 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,320 few other heads, was this unprecedented gathering of the 403 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,760 top brass, hundreds of them, or the world's mightiest military 404 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,880 in Quantico, the Marine base South of Washington, DC. 405 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,920 We all thought it might be some preparation for World War Three, 406 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,280 but in fact, there was. Drum roll. 407 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,560 What was it, Anoushka? Fat shaming military generals. 408 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:41,200 Yeah. So essentially they bring 409 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,440 hundreds in, including military, you know, leaders from the 410 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,760 Middle East at the moment. Were they talking about Israel, 411 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:48,000 Gaza? They certainly were not. 412 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,040 And then I, I tuned in. I mean, I have to say I did 413 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,200 wonder if it was going to be a bit of a damp squib. 414 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,440 I mean, there was some stuff in there which was interesting. 415 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,560 Obviously the optics of it somewhat North Korean, although 416 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,360 they probably want us to talk about that. 417 00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:04,720 So let's not too much. But but Pete Hegseth, the 418 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,280 secretary of War, as he is now called on stage. 419 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,880 And then I was like, he suddenly starts talking about fat 420 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,320 generals. So what are you going on about? 421 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,440 His argument was basically like, if you're fat, you can't be the 422 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,200 leader in a military setting. You need to be doing personal 423 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,800 training every day. I do personal training every 424 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,120 day. We're going to make sure that 425 00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:25,720 you do, I mean. Pretty ripped that Pete Hegseth. 426 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,800 He is pretty ripped. Amazing 6 pack Donald. 427 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,800 Trump has. Donald Trump is not rich, wants. 428 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:34,840 To be a bit more isolationist. Yeah. 429 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,840 On the world. So when he changed his that, you 430 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,120 know, his department to the Department of War. 431 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,160 I I did think, oh, that's funny because he doesn't want to be 432 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,240 involved in wars. But the sort of amazing bit is 433 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,200 when he talked about that in the room and he was talking about 434 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,120 not a war with other countries, but a war with the enemy within. 435 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,080 And he basically openly said, I want you lot to go into American 436 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,520 cities, you know, where we're going to put in the National 437 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,040 Guard and so forth. And that could be your training. 438 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,760 And, and look, in weeks and weeks to come, I think we're 439 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,040 going to discuss this a lot. But it is pretty chilling to 440 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:13,400 hear a president say that The New York Times bestselling 441 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,240 author of These truths. And now We the People, which 442 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,320 focuses on the Constitution, is with us. 443 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,320 Jill Lepore, thank you for joining us. 444 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,200 Thanks so much for having me, it's really fun to speak with 445 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,040 you. You obviously right and I love 446 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,880 this about the views of the women around some other men. 447 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,120 Shockingly. More from the women, please, who 448 00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:36,800 drew up the Constitution, including Abigail Adams, the 449 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,320 wife of John. Of course he doesn't need a 450 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,480 surname. And she wrote this one line. 451 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,960 Remember, all men would be tyrants if they could. 452 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,880 Can I just start with that? Is that an idea to you that is 453 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,280 borne out through American history? 454 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,200 And then and I'm we're going to get to this, of course, and then 455 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,360 again today. Yeah, I mean, that's the idea on 456 00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:00,120 which the United States is founded, right? 457 00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:04,680 That's the, the, the, the notion that tyranny is inevitable 458 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:09,040 without restraints on power. And that's why we have a written 459 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,520 constitution, unlike England, that, you know, the idea that we 460 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:17,040 should write down the rules and constrain the power of our newly 461 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,640 erected federal government. The states did the same thing. 462 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:24,440 And Adams's point in writing to her husband was, well, we've you 463 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,640 forgot one really important kind of power, which is private 464 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,800 power. The, the, the, the tyranny of 465 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,360 husbands over their wives and over their children in private 466 00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:35,520 life. And indeed, you know, just given 467 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,080 the nature of 18th century political thought, women and 468 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,880 children are left out of those protections. 469 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,600 They don't have rights. They there is no remedy for the 470 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,040 abuse of power within the domestic sphere. 471 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,920 And I think it's just important to remember people complained 472 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:53,480 about that. Women complained about that at 473 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,320 the time. That's not a, you know, an 474 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,640 insight of feminists in the 1970s. 475 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,080 That's an insight of women in the 1770s. 476 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,200 Extraordinary and, and, and incredibly important. 477 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,080 I mean, not just Abigail Adams. So many women who you talk 478 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,040 about. There's quite a bit of evidence 479 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,880 that women were deeply concerned about the consequences of a new 480 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:16,160 framing of the very premise of government which left women out, 481 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,920 did not regard women as persons under the law. 482 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,640 I mean, I lived in America for 11 years, and my kids went to 483 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,800 American schools and they were all, you know, brought up to 484 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,640 Revere the American Constitution. 485 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,480 And, you know, we would hear the the Pledge of Allegiance. 486 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,800 I think it was a Monday morning kind of echoing through our 487 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,680 streets. You know, you really worship 488 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,800 these parchment papers on which, you know, the greatest 489 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,720 Republican experiment in history is based. 490 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,560 But I wondered if the Founding Fathers had ever reckoned with 491 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,400 someone like Donald Trump, who may not have read the 492 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,520 Constitution, maybe has, we don't know, but who doesn't seem 493 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,920 to be respecting the niceties of it, to put it mildly. 494 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,680 Because if it's because at the end of the day, it is a kind of 495 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,520 agreement amongst, for want of a better term, gentleman farmers, 496 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,520 you know, at the end of the 18th century to, you know, to divide 497 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,760 power, to get away from the British monarchy as much as 498 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,880 possible. And 250 years almost after you 499 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,920 celebrated your departure from our great monarchy, you've got a 500 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,680 president who wants to behave like 1. 501 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,240 It is one of the darker ironies of the course of American 502 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,640 history that the very form of executive power that the US 503 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:34,240 Constitution was devised to constrain, restrain, prevent is 504 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,080 now shadowed by it. Did they anticipate that? 505 00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:40,240 Absolutely. And, and mostly because they 506 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,400 were students not only of British politics, they weren't 507 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,480 actually that concerned about the king. 508 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,200 They were really concerned about Parliament, but they were 509 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,560 students of history. And it is a moment in time that 510 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,440 I think we've almost forgotten that when Statesman and I used 511 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,520 the term advisedly, it was crucial to study history, 512 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,040 ancient and modern history, in order to understand how power 513 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:07,720 works, what rights are, what to expect of, you know, what would 514 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,200 they would have called human nature. 515 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,120 They also had this, I think, kind of wonderfully Newtonian 516 00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:17,400 understanding of politics. They thought that they were 517 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,880 applying what Alexander Hamilton called the science of politics 518 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,800 to modern political questions. That, yes, the ancients had, you 519 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,920 know, back to Plato, you know, had had brilliant understandings 520 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:38,160 of the nature of power and how systems of rule would naturally 521 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:43,520 decay into forms of tyranny without any check against them. 522 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,400 And they, they appreciated that wisdom and they valued it. 523 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,120 But they lived in a highly scientific age in which, you 524 00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:54,440 know, after Newton's optics and Newton's discovery of the laws 525 00:26:54,440 --> 00:27:00,280 of gravity, they believed that all of not just the physical 526 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,680 world, but all of human experience could be deduced 527 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,120 according to natural laws. That then so that they could 528 00:27:07,120 --> 00:27:10,800 devise a constitution that would be an intricate, perfect machine 529 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,640 like the the with the perfect balancings of the gears, gears 530 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,960 and movements of a watch or a clock that would act to 531 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:24,080 constrain that natural tendency of power to corrupt, of power to 532 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,080 become tyrannical. And so they thought they were 533 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,480 writing a Constitution where someone like Trump could never 534 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,240 gain the kind of power that Trump has now gained, because 535 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:40,000 they had devised the thing so perfectly to to to break that 536 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,040 kind of acquisition of power. The rules respect the norms. 537 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,760 And if you, a guy like Trump comes along and doesn't respect 538 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,640 it, you know, then all those finely devised, you know, 539 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,000 mechanisms really for naughty. I don't know that I would go so 540 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,720 far As for not. I mean, there is a reason that 541 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,840 Americans really cherish our Constitution and the stability 542 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,040 that it is provided. A lot of Americans believe the 543 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,200 US Constitution is responsible for American prosperity. 544 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,400 American. There are a lot of commitments 545 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,880 to veneration of the Constitution from many quarters. 546 00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:17,680 I think they tend to overlook the many ways in which the 547 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,320 Constitution has failed, not least if obviously was not able 548 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,000 to avert a civil war over how to end slavery. 549 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,120 And I think Americans tend not to really pay attention to just 550 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,160 how significant the amendments of the Constitution have been to 551 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,280 realizing its initial promise. But exactly as you say, like I'm 552 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:39,200 not going to dispute like it does, it does depend on people's 553 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:44,200 belief in constitutionalism. You know, Madison always said, 554 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,400 you know, there these even a Bill of Rights, these things 555 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,120 would be mere parchment barriers. 556 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,400 If someone wants to ignore the Constitution and they have the 557 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,880 power to do so and they have an army behind them, well, you know 558 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,520 that that is that is the fragility of constitutionalism. 559 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,080 So the question, you know, in the United States today, exactly 560 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:07,160 as you suggest is, is the Constitution still operating? 561 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:12,640 So, So what is it do you think that has allowed this to happen 562 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,520 right now? What what, what is it around the 563 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,200 institution? What did they fail perhaps to do 564 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:25,160 to not entirely close the gaps? And I just also want to ask you 565 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,480 about this thing that I find really interesting as someone 566 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,760 I'm really new to the US. I've just moved here to do the 567 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,040 job that Matt did for many years before. 568 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,760 You know, I watch this debate over free speech at the moment. 569 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,880 Those on the right, they argue as if they believe in the 570 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:41,680 Constitution above all else, right? 571 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,320 They that's what they say. And then they use those same 572 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,000 arguments to attack, you know, absolutely core parts of that 573 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,560 Constitution. Yeah, maybe the framers just 574 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,440 weren't cynical enough. You sometimes sort of look 575 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,200 around, well, people, this is the, the degree of hypocrisy on 576 00:29:58,200 --> 00:29:59,840 all sides is really extraordinary. 577 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,640 I mean, there, there were some structural deformities from the 578 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,600 beginning. And I think we see the long term 579 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,520 consequences of those now. One of which is that if you're 580 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,360 going to write a constitution down, you know, which was an 581 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,640 innovation, right, So that it could be transparent, people 582 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,680 could refer to it. Well, you have to have a 583 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,240 mechanism to change it because things are going to change and 584 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,200 you, you actually need to be able to change it in an orderly 585 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,880 way, in a peaceful and democratic way. 586 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,120 And that mechanism here is, is the formal amendment process, 587 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:29,920 which turns out to not really work very well. 588 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,960 So almost immediately there's a kind of corruption, like a, a 589 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,160 weakness in those, that balance that's, that's supposed to be in 590 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,920 the Constitution whereby, well, then the Supreme Court steps in 591 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,280 and it says, OK, the Constitution needs to change. 592 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:45,760 We'll change it. We'll just read it a little bit 593 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,800 differently. So for most of American history, 594 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,640 the Constitution is not really amendable by formal amendment. 595 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,400 Instead, the court gains more and more power and we. 596 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,880 It is a really unusual. I think people outside the 597 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,800 United States have a hard time understanding why it is that, 598 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,680 you know, in my lifetime, nominations to the Supreme Court 599 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,280 are just this huge political controversy. 600 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,120 Every time they come around, you know, they'll be, you know, back 601 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:18,160 to the 1980s when a Yale Law School scholar named Robert Bork 602 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,560 was nominated by Ronald Reagan to the court. 603 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,760 There was this huge campaign, television ads against him. 604 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,280 The hearings were televised. People really obsessed with it. 605 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,440 Or, you know, your listeners might remember the Clarence 606 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,200 Thomas nomination controversy in the 90s where Anita Hill came 607 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,880 forward with allegations of sexual harassment or more 608 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,520 recently, Brett Kavanaugh. We're living in a world here 609 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,480 where there have been death threats, like credible death 610 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,920 threats against Supreme Court justices and at least one 611 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:49,840 seemingly attempted assassination. 612 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,360 Our Supreme Court justices go on speaking tours. 613 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,400 They write memoirs. They're celebrities. 614 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,600 This is a complete deformity of what a justice system is meant 615 00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,640 to do, right? The Supreme Court is meant to be 616 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,120 completely outside and immune to public opinion and the popular 617 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,040 will. But if you think about the 618 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:12,280 forces that drove Donald Trump to power and also really 619 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:17,520 buttressed the rise of Barack Obama, the 90s kind of in the 620 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,840 US, the sort of lifestyles of the rich and famous, everyone 621 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,760 becomes a celebrity. The only source of political 622 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:28,880 power is fame. And then the way that is 623 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,160 worsened by social media in the 2000s, we sort of live in a 624 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:39,840 world where we have yielded the idea that the people can expect 625 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,320 their leaders to abide by the Constitution to a popular 626 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,240 culture world in which our leaders are celebrities. 627 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,680 They're celebrity buffoons. We, you know, we know the names 628 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:53,520 of their wives and their children. 629 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,320 The, the idea that anyone is in good faith, acting responsibly 630 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,120 with regard to Constitution, constitutionalism in the rule of 631 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,440 law is something I don't think most Americans even believe 632 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,080 anymore. You know, even though I would 633 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,720 say, like, I, I do believe that people in the federal judiciary 634 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,520 are acting in good faith and, and I may disagree with their 635 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,240 decisions, but it's just a, it's a weird, it's like a Marvel 636 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,120 Universe version of of the US government right now. 637 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,120 Like you're like, what? Why are we in this movie instead 638 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,760 of in an actual real political world? 639 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,320 Because we have a president who's a, you know, ATV producer. 640 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,280 Now that that's a facile answer, I want to ask you, Jill, whether 641 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,040 you is, is the reason why so many things that are really 642 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,200 important to the way Americans live their lives. 643 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,360 And Roe V. Wade, which is overturned by the 644 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,600 Supreme Court as a prime example, you know, the right to 645 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,960 have an abortion. Because in in most other 646 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,840 democracies, that kind of important stuff is decided not 647 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,520 by a Supreme Court, but by parliament or by Congress. 648 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,840 Has the Supreme Court stepped in where Congress was unable to act 649 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,440 or to decide or to legislate? And and where is Congress right 650 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,880 now? Where when some people say we 651 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,719 need it most? Well, part of the problem of the 652 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,639 deformity of our constitutional system and the separation of 653 00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:17,080 powers is that Congress is effectively useless. 654 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,760 It can do nothing. I mean, we are speaking at a 655 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,920 moment when the federal government has shut down over 656 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:26,960 Congress's ability to even keep the government running, which 657 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,400 does seem like the season finale of a really bad TV show. 658 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,719 Except it happens every 7. Years it happened, it keeps 659 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,280 happening. I don't mean to belabor it, but 660 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:40,199 like really you're not wrong to say it's like it's ATV produced 661 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:46,280 set of crises that we're in the midst of you know I I the way 662 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,600 our system of laws works is that fundamental rights are 663 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:54,360 guaranteed in the Constitution and they can't be overturned by 664 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,400 Congress and they can't be violated by the states. 665 00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,200 We have the system of federalism. 666 00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:05,240 So in 1965 when the Supreme Court considered it the argument 667 00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:09,320 that bans on birth control in the state of Connecticut were 668 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,880 unconstitutional, it it agreed with the with that claim and 669 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,520 said there is in the Constitution a right to privacy. 670 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:21,080 The the words right to privacy is not in the Constitution, but 671 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,600 famously the Supreme Court said you could find them in the kind 672 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,840 of shadow between the letters of other words, like in the 673 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,720 penumbra of the Constitution, you could locate a right to 674 00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:33,920 privacy. And it's on that basis that 675 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,320 reproductive rights became constitutional rights, including 676 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,840 the right to an abortion in 1973 in Roe V Wade. 677 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:48,200 So the reason for the for rights seekers to go to the court is 678 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,560 because Congress was not going to pass such a law. 679 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:55,480 And that is always a tenuous decision, right? 680 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,000 Anything that the Supreme Court does, what the Supreme Court 681 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,360 giveth, the Supreme Court can taketh away. 682 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,000 So, you know, another route would be to go for a 683 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,400 constitutional amendment, which the Supreme Court cannot 684 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,880 overturn. But historically in the 20th 685 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,080 century, people on the left have gone to the court instead, cause 686 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,080 the court has been liberal. The court is conservative now, 687 00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:20,440 and so the court is undoing. So in 2022, the court overturned 688 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,360 the Roe V. Wade decision and said, oh, we 689 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,520 were wrong. There is no right to privacy in 690 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,440 the Constitution. They didn't go that far. 691 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,840 But essentially there is no right to an abortion in the 692 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:31,400 Constitution. They didn't overturn the birth 693 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,160 control decision, although they may well yet do that. 694 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,400 So you see the consequences of not having sought out a 695 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,080 constitutional amendment to constitutionalized that right. 696 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:44,720 And you're absolutely right. In other countries, it doesn't. 697 00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:50,360 It doesn't work this way and but what we're kind of stuck with 698 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:56,120 that at the moment because we also don't we've ceded so much 699 00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:01,280 of any notion that the people or through their Congress have a 700 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,280 right to change the Constitution, cause Congress has 701 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,480 to pass a constitutional amendment and then it goes to 702 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,120 the states. And hasn't for decades. 703 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:13,200 And hasn't for decades. And what where we're at now is, 704 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,760 is, is one step significantly worse than that. 705 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,200 It's not just that we've ceded that power exclusively to the 706 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,680 Supreme Court. In fact, I think Americans do 707 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,440 genuinely believe that if Trump says it's in the Constitution, 708 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,040 it is. And if it isn't, it isn't that, 709 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,440 that somehow the president has the power to decide what the 710 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,280 Constitution that he's not obeying or not obeying, that he 711 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,520 just, he is the Constitution, right? 712 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,080 The state is me, right? That that is the kind of absurd 713 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,000 political decay that we're in the midstep. 714 00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:43,520 And can I, can I just ask you about that from a broader 715 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,680 historical perspective? I mean, we're seeing this 716 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:47,920 retribution politics at the moment. 717 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,720 We're seeing Trump, you know, gloat about going after his 718 00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:55,640 enemies in the courts where, you know, as you, you will have 719 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:57,840 experienced yourself. We're seeing that huge fight 720 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,760 with, say, Harvard. We're seeing, you know, his 721 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,160 attempt to sack somebody from the Federal Reserve Board. 722 00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:10,280 Like how unique or different is this in a historical perspective 723 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,160 and, and given everything you've studied, where does it end? 724 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:14,680 How do we come out the other side? 725 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,280 Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how it ends. 726 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,240 I don't have good enough writing skills for that. 727 00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:22,640 I, you know, people would point to and say the power of the 728 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,400 presidency in this country has been expanding ever since FDR, 729 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,520 the 1930s. FDR was confronting the Great 730 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,640 Depression, war in Europe, the decline of democracy around the 731 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,600 world, unbelievable suffering and unemployment in the United 732 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:40,280 States, and passed a series of laws that he dubbed the New 733 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,600 Deal. The Supreme Court declared began 734 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,640 declaring those laws unconstitutional. 735 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,960 FDR considered trying to constitutionalized those by way 736 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:50,640 of a set of constitutional amendments. 737 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,200 And it's like, there's not enough time. 738 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,960 We're in the middle of a depression and he basically 739 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,080 bullied the court into constitutionalizing the New 740 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,000 Deal. You can think of what Trump is 741 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:06,600 doing and quite self consciously trying to take the United States 742 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:11,000 back in time to before the New Deal, dismantling every agency 743 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,160 of the federal government, every ability of the federal 744 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:19,520 government to regulate the economy, enact and enable social 745 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,360 and economic legislation, guarantee rights. 746 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,720 Trump like even repealing the 16th amendment essentially, 747 00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:30,880 which was passed in 1913, which allows for a graduated federal 748 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:32,880 income tax. That's why Trump likes tariffs 749 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,640 better, right? He wants he likes the 1890s and 750 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:40,520 the 19 aughts. He is trying to dismantle what 751 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,200 FD Rs coalition began to put into place. 752 00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:46,840 That said, you know, FDR was dealing with an actual crisis 753 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,680 and a set of emergencies and yet worked collaboratively with 754 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,440 Congress. Trump, you know, in his first 755 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,920 100 days, you know, passed, declared all these emergencies, 756 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,800 took on all these emergency powers, issued all these 757 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,280 emergency declarations. Congress passed no laws to do 758 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,480 that really was all executive, all executive authority. 759 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,520 And although, you know, the notional commitment is we're 760 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:14,520 dismantling the administrative state, this is not at all what 761 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,200 they're doing, right? They're they're, they're 762 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,160 mantling an executive, a unitary executive authority. 763 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,120 Can I just ask you, Jill, to what extent the challenge 764 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,280 exists? Because we know that Trump has 765 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,720 signed more executive orders in his first nine months than he 766 00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:29,600 did in the, the, his entire first administration. 767 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,400 And actually, the record for, for executive orders is still 768 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,800 held by FDR, who I think signed something like 3900. 769 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,000 And he would say that's because we were in the middle of World 770 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:39,320 War 2 and the Depression and so on. 771 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,800 But those executive orders that Trump has signed are challenged, 772 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:45,120 aren't they, by the lower courts? 773 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,520 And then they end up in the Supreme Court. 774 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,800 And as far as I can tell, the Supreme Court in these so-called 775 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,680 shadow dockets has voted in Trump's favor every single time. 776 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:56,640 Explain that process to us please. 777 00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:59,960 Well, normally an administration, if it wanted to 778 00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:02,880 do something, whether it's by executive order or urging 779 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:08,080 Congress to pass a law, would run it past lawyers, I'd say, do 780 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:09,280 we have the authority to do this? 781 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:10,880 Is this constitutional? Is this legal? 782 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,840 Is this going to be struck down? And to some degree, Trump did 783 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,920 that in his first term. Not always. 784 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,600 I mean there was the the and, and sometimes they're like, you 785 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,280 can't do that. And so he didn't do it. 786 00:41:23,720 --> 00:41:28,120 But the decision this time around is no, I mean, and it's a 787 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:33,440 very self-conscious strategy. Let's just do it all and get as 788 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,040 far with doing it as we can. They could maybe they'll be 789 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,600 injunctions in the lower courts. Things will be stayed. 790 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,080 We'll wait for it to work to this way to the upper courts. 791 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,000 The the, the, the, the Supreme Court has, as you suggest, has 792 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,320 generally removed the lifted the injunctions and said, well, we 793 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,560 don't know yet if they can do it, where one day we'll figure 794 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:51,880 that out. But meanwhile they can do it. 795 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:53,960 That's basically been the the game plan. 796 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:58,080 Meanwhile, they can do it and and meanwhile it means right. 797 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,280 People are being laid off, losing their jobs. 798 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,040 Children have no aid. There's you know, health 799 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,640 insurance benefits are declining at the moment. 800 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,200 We don't really have anyone controlling where the planes are 801 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,840 flying When the next flood comes, no one's gonna go to 802 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:16,080 rescue children in their attic bedrooms like we like in 803 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,920 meanwhile, that is a big meanwhile there's those are all 804 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:20,760 caps can. They be undone. 805 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,600 Yeah, I mean, I, I, I, I remain hopeful that the Supreme Court 806 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,160 is going to ultimately strike down more of this stuff than is 807 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,040 expected. Waving it along. 808 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,040 What, Because I'm an optimist. I have no other. 809 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,640 I have no credible. That's a solid scientific basis. 810 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,080 Isn't it? That's what I have. 811 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,800 I just, I kind of have to and I do believe some of this stuff 812 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:44,000 will be, will be reversed. And so the, some of the lower 813 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:49,040 court decisions have been magnificent just in terms of the 814 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,840 clarity of arguing against these abuses of power. 815 00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:56,760 But you know, there's no, there's, there's, there's a 816 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,120 little bit of a question like what is going to be the thing? 817 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,240 What would it take for the Supreme Court to say no? 818 00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:05,800 Like what would the thing be? I think a lot of people are 819 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,080 think maybe that's going to be the birthright citizenship 820 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:13,520 issue. It's, it's hard to say. 821 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:17,880 And I kind of as a public commitment, I feel like it's 822 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:22,600 important to say it's, it's entirely possible that they'll 823 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:24,880 be a significant judicial push back. 824 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:31,640 And I wish I could say more than that's an act of hope. 825 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:33,400 What about the midterm elections? 826 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,400 The question I keep getting from people on this side of the 827 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,320 Atlantic is, you know, especially from pessimists, 828 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,360 surely the midterm question, the midterm elections will be 829 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,160 cancelled. He'll find some kind of excuse. 830 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,520 He'll stay in, you know, he'll try and get re elected for a 831 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:51,240 third term in office. I mean, all that is really hard 832 00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:53,680 to achieve if you want to stick to the constitution. 833 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:58,360 But could he achieve it and how? There's no way to run for a 834 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:02,080 third term constitutionally. That said, he could do it and 835 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,800 wait for the Supreme Court to, to, he's waited out. 836 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,360 I don't think he will. I think he's physically failing. 837 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,520 Honestly, I think there's some significant signs that he's 838 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:17,240 really on the decline in terms of the midterms. 839 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,000 I don't know. I'm, I will say like I'm not a 840 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,240 big poll watcher. I, I, I would have said just 841 00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:25,720 impressionistically, why would he bother canceling the 842 00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:27,560 midterms? I I don't think the Democrats 843 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,120 have really staged a significant opposition. 844 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:32,840 I don't. I would like to think that 845 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,280 there's going to be some seats shifting in the midterms, but 846 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,600 are. You disappointed by that? 847 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:41,080 Where is the fight back? It's really weird. 848 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:46,120 There's just not even, you know, I teach at Harvard, as you say, 849 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,840 and there's a lot obviously the administration has been 850 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,320 attempting to do to destroy our university. 851 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:57,040 And you think about the, the scale of student protest over 852 00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:03,840 Gaza, you know, 2-3 years ago, encampments, protests, meetings, 853 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:09,640 constant meetings and heartfelt but, but, and, and, you know, a, 854 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:14,520 a terrible tragedy in Gaza. And, but I would say for many 855 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,200 students, this place they'd never heard of before and their 856 00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:19,040 knowledge of it came from social media. 857 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,440 And there are not students out in the campus quad right now 858 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:25,640 protesting what the Trump administration is doing. 859 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,720 Does that surprise you? Does it disappoint? 860 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:30,480 You it does. There's not. 861 00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:34,240 There's not organized civil unrest, civil disobedience. 862 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,680 Like in the 60s. Yeah, and you might say, well, 863 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:40,760 you know, then I can't protest Harvard. 864 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:45,240 Harvard's like like protesting on the campus again, you know, 865 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,960 with regard to Gaza is to protest Harvard, you know, kind 866 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,160 of call for divestment. What are they going to be? 867 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,800 They're not protesting the university, but you can still 868 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:56,160 like. Why? 869 00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:58,040 Why not? Why are they not doing that? 870 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:01,320 This is my this is this. It really puzzles me or think 871 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:05,600 about, you know, even just smaller I you know, you can 872 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,440 understand why people are not able to protest ICE. 873 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:14,480 The kind of crackdown, like the consequences of those kinds of 874 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,680 protests are, would be would be borne by the most vulnerable 875 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:20,480 people. The lack of the fight back is 876 00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:22,440 really striking. It's really striking that 877 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,800 there's not street action. There's not just not just like 878 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:26,320 non violent. Especially compared to. 879 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,760 Just in the streets. Can I, can I just ask you one 880 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,280 final one from me. You know a lot you are 881 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:37,120 fascinated by Elon Musk, aren't you, and his origin story. 882 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:38,400 I know you've got a podcast on that. 883 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,240 Just just like what is going on right now with him, do you 884 00:46:42,240 --> 00:46:44,400 think? And does he have any influence 885 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,560 there? He was in the news recently 886 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,640 because at the memorial following the brutal 887 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:55,200 assassination of Charlie Kirk, he and Trump apparently had a 888 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,240 little chat. And so there was so much like 889 00:46:58,240 --> 00:47:00,960 twittering about, are they, are they making up? 890 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:05,960 I think at the moment, you know, he has been rewarded with untold 891 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,600 gazillions by Tesla for making I think a little bit more of a 892 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:14,440 commitment to stay out of the limelight and do more for the 893 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:19,720 company. You know, I think Musk is a good 894 00:47:19,720 --> 00:47:26,840 representative of of the kind of political buffoonery, high 895 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:32,280 celebrity, social media driven extremism that characterizes 896 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,080 much of our political system and our political discourse right 897 00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:39,440 now. He is a creature of this. 898 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:43,840 You know, I think people sort of forget that Musk became the 899 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:45,960 modern version of Musk immediately following the 900 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,800 insurrection on January 6th, 2021 when Trump was banned from 901 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,200 social media. Remember, Trump had a huge 902 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,160 Twitter following. He was the loudest voice on 903 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:56,600 Twitter. And then essentially the day he 904 00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,800 was banned, Musk kind of stepped in and he became the loudest 905 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:01,720 voice on Twitter. And it's like not long after 906 00:48:01,720 --> 00:48:03,640 that that he decided he wanted to buy Twitter. 907 00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:08,840 I think they had, they have, they are, they are kind of peas 908 00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:13,800 in a pod in an interesting way. And I think both are are truly 909 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:18,880 enthralled to the idea of their own power and their unique 910 00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,040 importance. So I it was unsurprising to me 911 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:26,720 that they broke up. I mean, we have not seen the 912 00:48:26,720 --> 00:48:29,840 last of Elon Musk's attempts to interfere with national and 913 00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,120 international political arrangements for sure. 914 00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:40,320 But but they both similarly have no real concern for basic 915 00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,400 constraints on power that might allow for a more just world. 916 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,040 Just on that point, on my, my final question to you would be 917 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:48,080 this. You know, there's a real 918 00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:52,360 seriousness to how Americans view their own Republic, you 919 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,960 know, whether it's in the courts or in the newspapers, you know, 920 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,080 or in conversations, you know, in the schoolyard and so on. 921 00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:03,120 And Trump seems to be riding roughshod over so much of that. 922 00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,720 And of course, half the country is applauding it and the other 923 00:49:05,720 --> 00:49:09,520 half is appalled by it. Where do you see the push back 924 00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:13,280 to what many people regard as an existential battle for the 925 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,280 future of the Republic coming? Where is it coming from and will 926 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,120 it succeed? This book came out a few weeks 927 00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,520 ago and I've been doing in between classes, you know, 928 00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,000 jumping on planes and going around the country and talking 929 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:27,920 to audiences about the Constitution. 930 00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,840 And it's a self select. It's a book reading audience. 931 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,960 You know, it's like a very unusual group of people that 932 00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:35,880 come to these events, but it's usually a large number of 933 00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:38,040 people. And we spent a lot of time in 934 00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:39,680 Q&A. And I was in Seattle the other 935 00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,680 day. And the final question was 936 00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:47,240 essentially your question. Some guy said, geez, you know, I 937 00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:48,680 don't know. At this point, I don't think we 938 00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:51,320 even really have a constitution. And I don't know how we defend 939 00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,880 what we have when no one else is, you know, when when our 940 00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:57,120 elected leaders aren't abiding by it and the courts seem to be 941 00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:00,280 unconcerned about it. And we're not gathering in civil 942 00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,560 meetings to deliberate over it anymore. 943 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,680 Maybe we just need to, you know, take a completely different 944 00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,800 tactics to give up on the Constitution and come up with a 945 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,440 different way of thinking about the future of this country. 946 00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:15,280 And I said, you know, that's I really appreciate the question 947 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,320 is really good question. And so I thought, but with this, 948 00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:20,120 you know, 600 of us in this room, let's have have a vote. 949 00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,680 So I called for, like, a voice vote of, like, do you think we 950 00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,840 should fight for the Constitution that we have and 951 00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:33,160 repairing it and seeking means by which our elected officials 952 00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:35,480 honor it, or do you think we should start again, whatever. 953 00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,200 And it wasn't just a resounding eye to the first question, like, 954 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,400 people wanted to uphold the Constitution. 955 00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:46,560 So there is, you know, among people that are going to go out 956 00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:48,920 of an evening to go here and talk about the Constitution, a 957 00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,240 kind of commitment to it that that I was really struck by. 958 00:50:52,240 --> 00:50:57,280 I thought there would be much more of like, oh, just we 959 00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:03,640 basically need some fresh start. So I don't, I, I wish I had a 960 00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:05,160 prediction for you. I don't. 961 00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:10,040 I think there is a broad middle political middle in the United 962 00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,720 States that's often called the exhausted majority that just 963 00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,120 can't even participate in politics anymore because 964 00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,640 politics has become such a hideous playground. 965 00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:21,600 It's the worst system apart from all the others, as Church said 966 00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:22,920 about democracy. There we go. 967 00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:25,480 Jill Lepaul, thank you very much indeed for joining us. 968 00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:26,760 That was thank you. Fascinating. 969 00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:30,360 Thank you both. That was great from Jill Lepaul. 970 00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:33,760 Really fascinating insights. That's it for this edition. 971 00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:37,600 Next week I will be on a Roman holiday, and I mean literally on 972 00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:40,840 holiday in Rome. So Anushka, the show is yours 973 00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:42,400 next week. Yeah, because I don't take 974 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,160 holidays, Matt. I work hard apart from, as you 975 00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:48,560 are surely going to point out, the one I've kept coming up. 976 00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:51,240 Listen, I need you to help me out. 977 00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,440 Do get in touch with any questions you've got. 978 00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:57,840 You can e-mail us on Trumpworld at channel4.com or leave us a 979 00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:02,040 comment on YouTube or Spotify. And if I can't answer the 980 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,160 questions, I'll I'll just text you. 981 00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:05,640 Matt on holiday you don't mind of. 982 00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:08,200 Course, of course you will and and maybe my phone will just 983 00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,720 have to malfunction for a bit. Anyway, I'll see you soon. 984 00:52:10,720 --> 00:52:13,040 Thanks to all of you for listening and taking part. 985 00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,080 That's it from Anushka and me. That's it from Trump. 986 00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:18,480 World for another week. See you next Wednesday.