1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,440 Whatever Trump says, and the trouble isn't no one really 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:04,560 believing anything comes out of his mouth anymore. 3 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:07,400 At the end of the day, you need to sit down with the very people 4 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:10,080 whose annihilation you tried to seek at the beginning of this 5 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:11,600 war. And I don't think that is a 6 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,960 problem that Donald Trump has fully come to terms with yet. 7 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,800 Anyone who deals with Donald Trump sits there like biting 8 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:22,520 their fingernails because they know that one slip can make the 9 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:28,880 whole thing go wrong. Hello and welcome to Trump 10 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:31,040 World. I'm Matt Fry in London. 11 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:36,080 And I'm Anish Kristana, also in London, visiting during Easter 12 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:40,800 or spring break, as they call it in the US And today we're 13 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:46,880 talking about Donald Trump maybe thinking that the war in Iran 14 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,360 could come to an end. I mean, that's a big maybe, and 15 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,160 I'm sure we'll come to that. But the question a lot of us are 16 00:00:53,160 --> 00:00:58,360 wondering is what it means for geopolitics after it, not least 17 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,760 because right now, Matt, Donald Trump is saying that he would 18 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:04,640 think again about NATO membership. 19 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:09,040 And not only Donald Trump, his Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, 20 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,960 who's normally normally a bit more careful over these things. 21 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:16,760 Now, we have heard them threaten to leave NATO before. 22 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:18,960 But why do you think it's different this time? 23 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:21,480 Well, first of all, the language, Anushka, I mean, 24 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,240 Donald Trump is giving an interview to Reuters as we 25 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:27,880 speak. And the word that he's used is 26 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:32,200 that he is disgusted with the way that NATO has behaved over 27 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,680 its non involvement in trying to open up the Strait of Hormuz. 28 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:37,360 Disgusted. This is not a word that we've 29 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,720 heard before, even though Trump has held all sorts of insults at 30 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:45,680 NATO in previous months. Senator Marco Rubio, former 31 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,360 senator, now Secretary of State Marco Rubio has also given an 32 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,600 interview to Fox News where he normally quite mild mannered and 33 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,080 reasonable, has been saying more or less, we've got to think 34 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,880 about this relationship. If they're not helping us out in 35 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,240 our war, then why should we help them out with their war? 36 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:05,160 And I guess he was hinting at Russia and Ukraine and all that 37 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,840 situation. Now, the it's rather odd that 38 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,240 Marco Rubio should be saying this one because he doesn't 39 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,080 normally say abrasive things. But also because he was actually 40 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:17,440 one of the people who allowed a law to pass in the Senate with a 41 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:23,720 2/3 majority in 2024. Whereby it is stipulated that if 42 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,640 America wants to leave NATO or other alliances like it in the 43 00:02:27,640 --> 00:02:32,880 future, it needs a 2/3 majority in the Senate or indeed an act 44 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,280 of Congress. So Marco Rubio's was one of 45 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,840 those people who said at the time, we don't want this kind of 46 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,960 threat that Trump issued in the first administration ever to 47 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,320 become a reality. But like many people in Rushka, 48 00:02:44,920 --> 00:02:47,720 Little Marco, as he used to be called by Trump, has been on a 49 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:49,520 journey. Well, someone I was just talking 50 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,840 to was arguing that little Marco is trying to look in two 51 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,200 directions at once. He kind of wants to still be the 52 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,960 pragmatic Secretary of State, and that is the messaging that 53 00:02:59,960 --> 00:03:01,800 they're getting from him behind the scenes. 54 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,520 But at the same time, he wants to be the next president. 55 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:06,960 And So what Donald Trump thinks of you and what you say in a 56 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:08,800 moment like this is really important. 57 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,720 I mean, when you hear this sort of stuff about NATO, my first 58 00:03:11,920 --> 00:03:15,000 thought is to both call people in the embassy, the British 59 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,480 Embassy in DC, but also call people in the Foreign Office 60 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,720 here in London. And it is kind of quite 61 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:22,480 interesting to hear what they're saying about it. 62 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,720 I mean, they're trying to still say cool heads pragmatism. 63 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,360 Keep calm and carry on. Keep calm, carry on. 64 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:30,520 I said to them, well, it's getting harder. 65 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,160 And they were like, it is hard. It absolutely is hard. 66 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,200 There is this kind of idea that Donald Trump is getting really 67 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,280 frustrated. He's getting frustrated because 68 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,320 the war isn't going in the way that he had hoped that it would 69 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,400 go, but that, you know, for NATO involvement in something, there 70 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,040 are steps that you have to go through. 71 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:51,040 He didn't go through them. He went ahead with this war with 72 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:56,080 barely any notice at all to the allies that he's now hitting out 73 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:57,880 at. And then the other factor in 74 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,840 this, which I think is really fascinating, is what people 75 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,240 think in their own countries. The reality for Keir Starmer is 76 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:06,760 this is not a popular war here in the UK. 77 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,400 And so, you know, really actually, let's just listen to 78 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,880 him. He is kind of bending over 79 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:18,200 backwards to say on my own man. This is not our war. 80 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:24,480 We will not be drawn into the conflict, that is not in our 81 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:29,680 national interest and the most effective way we can support the 82 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:34,360 cost of living in Britain is to push for de escalation in the 83 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:39,000 Middle East and a reopening of the Strait of Hormuz, which is 84 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:44,120 such a vital route for energy. To that end, we're exploring 85 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,600 each and every Diplomatic Ave. that is available to us. 86 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,560 And so we have this kind of strange situation where for Keir 87 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:56,840 Starmer, the kind of local political demand is to be anti 88 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,320 Donald Trump and anti the Iran war. 89 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:03,080 But for many of the, you know, diplomats behind the scenes, the 90 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,240 importance of the relationship continues. 91 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:07,640 But just one, you know, on that political thing, I thought it 92 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:09,480 was interesting. I interviewed Kemi Badenoch 93 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:14,840 earlier this week for Channel 4 News and she has been on a 94 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:17,360 journey, hasn't she, Matt? At the beginning of this, she 95 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,200 and Nigel Farage, the Reform leader, were basically saying 96 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:22,760 how could we not support the US anymore? 97 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,880 And then both of them have looked at the polls and realized 98 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,960 actually what Donald Trump is doing right now is not very 99 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,320 popular either here or in other countries. 100 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,160 I thought it was interesting to hear Georgia Maloney also for 101 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,920 from an Italian perspective, have to calm down on her special 102 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,080 relationship with Donald Trump. And this is Georgia Maloney, who 103 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,120 was one of the few European leaders actually invited to his 104 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,120 inauguration. I mean, she's, you know, she is 105 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,920 Donald Trump's favoured Western European leader, even more than 106 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,320 Keir Starmer. So all these leaders, whether 107 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,440 it's, you know, Georgia Maloney, obviously the Spanish Prime 108 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,160 Minister has already been in the doghouse with Trump for some 109 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:58,920 time. And there were calls yesterday 110 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,680 to have Spain expelled from NATO even as Trump was musing about 111 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,200 leaving the organization himself. 112 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,440 You've got the French also using very robust language against 113 00:06:08,840 --> 00:06:11,280 Donald Trump. This is from Macron. 114 00:06:11,280 --> 00:06:13,400 He used to fancy himself as a Trump whisperer. 115 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,000 The German Chancellor came out with some very strong words as 116 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:17,960 well. I think in all those countries, 117 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:22,360 it's a lot easier, frankly, to take a public stance against 118 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,200 Donald Trump. By the way, Germany, even the 119 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,760 Afd, right, the right wing populist Afd that was supported 120 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,200 by Trump and by Vance and by Elon Musk, they've also come out 121 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,080 against this war and against the idea of any German involvement. 122 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,840 Now it's, it's easier for them to do that because they don't 123 00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:41,040 have this special relationship with America. 124 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,920 And by that I mean a special military relationship with the 125 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,120 United States. And I was speaking to General 126 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:51,000 Sir Patrick Sanders, former chief of the, of the the General 127 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,280 Staff here in the UK. And he was saying that, you 128 00:06:54,280 --> 00:06:56,800 know, it's tricky for us because even though we have complete 129 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,960 autonomy over how we use our nuclear weapons in Britain or 130 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:04,280 anything else for that matter, the kit is only, only works 131 00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:06,920 because it's being maintained in an American garage. 132 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,400 So you can still drive your car, but unless you go back to the 133 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,760 American garage to tweak it and fix it and do the MOT every now 134 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:16,680 and again, you won't be able to drive it. 135 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,960 So we have a much, we're much more dependent than other 136 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:25,240 European nations on America's security umbrella than they are. 137 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,160 So that puts us in a really tricky position. 138 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,160 And the other thing he mentioned, and he was pretty 139 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,320 appalled by the language that that Trump has used about his 140 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:34,600 allies. And he made the point that you 141 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,440 just made as well, that you heard from your friends at the 142 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,840 embassy that if you don't consult allies, how can you 143 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,400 possibly win them over to an exercise like, you know, trying 144 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,520 to take on Iran? But he made the point that by 145 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,600 not allowing the Americans to use those two British bases, 146 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,320 Fred Fairford in Gloucestershire and Diego Garcia from the very 147 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,480 beginning of the war, that really spot the relationship. 148 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,960 And in his view on that very narrow question, we should have 149 00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:02,320 yielded because we ended up doing so anyway. 150 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,200 We should have yielded and that would have allowed us to 151 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,760 maintain a little bit more of the moral high ground. 152 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:13,000 But the overall impression that that he left me with is that on 153 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,720 one hand, NATO is much stronger than it was. 154 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,280 Remember just a few years ago, Emmanuel Macron before the the 155 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,160 Russia, Ukraine war was saying NATO is brain dead. 156 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,800 Well, it's not brain dead. It has a very clear purpose, 157 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,520 especially in Europe. But and it's got more funding 158 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,920 because of a combination of Trump's threats and Putin's war. 159 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:33,720 Everyone is spending more on defence. 160 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,080 Everyone is thinking about defence, but if you're sugar 161 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,840 daddy and that's let's face it, that is what you know, America 162 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:44,039 is to NATO decides to, you know, to channel, you know, Freddy 163 00:08:44,039 --> 00:08:46,360 Krueger or, or Dirty Harry, then you've got a problem. 164 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:51,160 You know, and, and this use of language by the Americans, you 165 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,240 know, basically, you know, dissing their allies, being rude 166 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,240 about their friends. This is not the way to keep an 167 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:57,720 alliance alive. And I think that is a 168 00:08:57,720 --> 00:08:59,960 fundamental problem. And of course, you know, just as 169 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,520 you know, we were all wondering whether Trump would pull out of 170 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,400 NATO yesterday and he was again insulting the Brits. 171 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,880 You know, the the palace, as in Buckingham Palace, confirms the 172 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,280 fact that King Charles the Third will, after all, go and visit 173 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,280 the United States for his royal state visit at the end of April. 174 00:09:16,560 --> 00:09:17,960 It's got to be quite awkward, isn't it? 175 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,200 Very. Awkward, but in a way it's one 176 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,080 of the cards that the UK government is playing because 177 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:27,280 despite the rhetoric, they still want to have where they can, a 178 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,680 decent relationship with the Americans. 179 00:09:29,680 --> 00:09:32,360 They're working incredibly hard behind the scenes to try and 180 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,720 make sure that goes well. They know that while Donald 181 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:38,440 Trump will slag off, you know, Keir Starmer till the cows come 182 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,000 home, he's not going to slag off the king. 183 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,720 You know, remember that meeting, but Keir Starmer with Donald 184 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,280 Trump early on where honestly speaking to people inside 185 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,960 Downing Street at the time, the choreography, the days they 186 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,840 spent thinking about it. And at the heart of it was that 187 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:58,520 letter, that letter about the king, which they see as the kind 188 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:00,800 of special thing they're going to play with Donald Trump. 189 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,360 And although the king goes as the king, he goes really on 190 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:05,880 behalf of the British government. 191 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,400 And so getting the kind of coordination of that right is 192 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,880 seen as incredibly important for both sides in terms of improving 193 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,840 this relationship. Again, it's also interesting 194 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,400 just talking to people behind the scenes, which bit can they 195 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,000 do to try and ease the relationship? 196 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,360 And the thing they're working on is, OK, we don't support the 197 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,160 offensive attack on Iran, but we do support getting the Strait of 198 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,920 Hormuz open, not least because we need it in the UK. 199 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,560 So we can focus in on that. And, you know, they were really 200 00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:35,360 pleased. On the fringes of the G7 meeting 201 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,600 in Paris, Yvette Cooper was talking to Marco Rubio, trying 202 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,560 to persuade him that Britain had had a really positive role when 203 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:43,760 it came to the Straight of Hormuz. 204 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,240 And they were delighted when Marco Rubio goes on TV and says 205 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,720 Britain has played a really important role there. 206 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,400 And I think they still think, even though Rubio is saying this 207 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,600 stuff out loud, that they did make some achievements there. 208 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,040 So I think they hope that focusing on the Straight of 209 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:02,720 Hormuz plus the king could be really positive for them. 210 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:04,600 We'll make. It sound far too easy I think. 211 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,480 Anyone. Who Deals with Donald Trump sits 212 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,640 there like biting their fingernails because they know 213 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,520 that one slip can make the whole thing go wrong. 214 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:14,760 Best. Laid plans right. 215 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,240 So I mean, I it's interesting when we just on this 216 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,000 relationship. So when, you know, in the last 217 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,720 two weeks and we've been talking a lot about this, you know, even 218 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,200 though Trump hasn't been insulting Keir Starmer and Keir 219 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,640 Starmer has this kind of Love Actually moments down again when 220 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,800 he stands up and reminds Trump that he's a, you know, 221 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:31,760 sovereign, you know, the Prime Minister of the sovereign 222 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:33,200 nation, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. 223 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,120 We always said, well, underneath it all, you know, on the next 224 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,800 level, the relationship is absolutely fine. 225 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,200 You know, British Spooks are talking to American Spooks and 226 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:43,800 the top brass is talking to each other. 227 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,920 Well, what I've been hearing from people in that world is 228 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:48,680 actually, it's not quite what it was. 229 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,200 So they've been quite a few occasions now where, you know, a 230 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,840 British top spy will be asked to leave the room when there's a 231 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,680 discussion between, you know, under the Five Eyes agreement 232 00:11:58,680 --> 00:12:01,800 between between an American and an Australian and the New 233 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:03,960 Zealand, they said Britain, could you just, could you just 234 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,080 do you mind just going out? Can you imagine that, right? 235 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:08,640 The Brits being excluded on occasion. 236 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,040 It's not happening as a matter of course, but it's been 237 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,320 noticed. Or for instance, if the 238 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,120 Americans want to, you know, as a matter of course, get 239 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,560 permission for one of their bombers to land at Fairford. 240 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:21,600 Normally that is just a rubber stamp. 241 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:23,840 You literally, you know, as long as it takes for someone to to 242 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:25,440 sign that piece of paper, it's fine. 243 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,000 Now it's, it's taking a few hours. 244 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:29,520 There are a few doubts that creep in. 245 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,760 This is the beginning of that relationship on the procedural 246 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,040 level potentially getting eroded. 247 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,640 And the mood music is set at the top. 248 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:40,920 And it's not good. And that brings me back to the 249 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,160 king. So if they decided, if Starmer 250 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,680 had said, OK, King Charles, you're not going to America, 251 00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:49,040 that would have been a massive that would have been the nuclear 252 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,880 diplomatic option. And Trump would have been so 253 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:53,080 upset. He would have tried to, I don't 254 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:54,680 know, maybe sink the island or something. 255 00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:57,120 Or I mean that that for him, that would be the worst thing 256 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,120 possible. Obviously that was not an 257 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:00,040 option. I didn't think they even 258 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:01,560 contemplated that for one minute. 259 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,400 And there was a pop. There is a well possibility here 260 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,440 for the king when he stands up at the state banquet in the not 261 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,800 yet quite built ballroom, so the old ballroom in the White House 262 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,920 and gives his address to the nation, to the host nation, but 263 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,560 also to his nation. He can. 264 00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:23,840 There is room there for reminding us and them of some of 265 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:25,480 the common principles and values. 266 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,200 And I, I'm waiting for that very brilliant scriptwriter to put in 267 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:33,280 a couple of really subtle lines that can be seen as criticism, 268 00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:37,520 but very veiled criticism of, you know, going it alone and 269 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:39,320 shooting from the hip and all that kind of stuff. 270 00:13:39,560 --> 00:13:43,560 But to find those that write, you know, form of words without 271 00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:46,800 insulting your host is going to be really, really tricky. 272 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,640 And you never, never know what's going to happen with Donald 273 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:52,000 Trump. But you're right that that 274 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:56,120 relationship behind the scenes. And we've got a big military 275 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,800 contingent working in the US who are actually embedded entirely 276 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,800 inside the US military, but are feeling a bit more cut out of 277 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:04,880 some of the conversations. And vice versa. 278 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,400 It sounds like some some things are going on vice versa because 279 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:12,080 there's a lack of trust in the other direction, all of which I 280 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:16,840 think adds up to a difficult situation and which everyone is 281 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,680 just assuming that post Trump it will calm down. 282 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,320 But let's see the other thing that's shifting dramatically. 283 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,200 And I'm interested what you think of this is where do the 284 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,840 geopolitics go after this? You know, a few weeks ago I was 285 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,360 talking to someone who was basically arguing, watch out for 286 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,400 what China does because ultimately they'll want to come 287 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,440 in and be the kind of grown up in the room, try and play 288 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,360 peacemaker. And Matt, that is kind of what 289 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,800 we're seeing, isn't it, in terms of these conversations between 290 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:45,520 Pakistan and China. What do you make of that? 291 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:47,160 Well. You know, yes. 292 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,600 And it started some time ago. I mean, ever since Trump, you 293 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:51,640 know, started off with Liberation Day and the Chinese 294 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,040 basically said we're not going to put up with this. 295 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:55,560 And they raised tariffs. Even more than that. 296 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,880 We had this sort of trade tit for tat war, which the Chinese 297 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,120 ultimately won because they had leverage over rare earth metals. 298 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,880 Ever since then, we've seen the Chinese basically say to the 299 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:09,560 world community, we are predictable, we are stable, we 300 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:13,240 are the designated adults driving this rather chaotic car 301 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,240 that is the world disorder at the moment. 302 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:19,160 And they have used the Iran war, you know, again, as an 303 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,680 opportunity to to make that point. 304 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,520 So first of all, they have, you know, they have some history in 305 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,520 this because China was instrumental in getting the 306 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:30,960 Saudis and the Iranians to talk to each other. 307 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:35,680 And they kind of made-up in 2023 after more or less a decade of 308 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,720 real animosity. And almost, you know, we were 309 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,560 all talking at the time about the Sunni Shia war, the two 310 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,920 regional superpowers at each other's throats. 311 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,120 And there was some, you know, there was some very dodgy stuff. 312 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,320 The Saudis, of course, as you remember, were militarily 313 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,960 engaged against the pro Iranian Houthis in Yemen. 314 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:53,800 And all that was eventually put to bed. 315 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,720 And China played a role in that. So China has come up again and 316 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:01,880 said, you know, we can do much. We can try and do much the same. 317 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:03,440 We can bring everyone around the table. 318 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,160 And again, if you look at the kind of tectonic plates of 319 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,480 geopolitics at the moment, they have a point because number one, 320 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,600 there is a summit with Xi Jinping and Donald Trump that 321 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,360 was delayed for a month because of the war that's supposed to 322 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,160 take place in Beijing. So they're still, the Americans 323 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,640 are still looking ahead to that. That is an opportunity to bury 324 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:23,720 the trade hatchet once and for all. 325 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,760 And I don't think Trump would want to jeopardize that. 326 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,320 Secondly, China has good relations with Pakistan. 327 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,720 Pakistan has good relations with Iran, you know, and Pakistan is 328 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,880 seen as a also by the Americans as a potential honest broker. 329 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,280 So there's real diplomatic potential here for them to talk 330 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,560 to each other. The problem is Trump, you know, 331 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:47,400 what does he want? You know, is he actually 332 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,080 intending to, you know, invade Kaag Island? 333 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,960 And can he, which is another matter altogether, Does he want 334 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:55,840 to fight his way through the Strait of Hormuz? 335 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,840 And the Iranians quite rightly can say, listen mate, we've 336 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,400 we've had two negotiations in the last year. 337 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:06,000 One was ended by you joining Israel in their surprise attack 338 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,000 against us in June for the 12 day war and the other one was 339 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,599 ended on the 28th of February. Why should we trust a single 340 00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:16,520 word that you say, whether it's brokered by China or by Pakistan 341 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,280 or by the man and the moon and obviously. 342 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,440 As all this is happening, the mood music we're getting from 343 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,920 Donald Trump is that he would like this to end, not least 344 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,960 because of the pressure he's coming under in terms of the 345 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,360 domestic population here. He's out giving interviews 346 00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:31,640 again. The Telegraph was where he made 347 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,560 the comments about NATO. And in this interview that you 348 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,080 mentioned, Matt, with Reuters, he's basically said that maybe 349 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,120 they can get out of around very quickly and then return for spot 350 00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:44,600 hits if needed. We're going to hear him set a 351 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,960 lot of this out. He's doing an address to the 352 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,200 nation. I think CBS has actually had to 353 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,600 break up one of its reality television program, Survivor 354 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,920 around this, which should make great for interesting watching. 355 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:01,000 Presumably in that address he is going to attack NATO allies and 356 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:05,000 others. Do you feel like this is a 357 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,360 moment now, a turning point, where he might start to pull 358 00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:10,920 America out of this Well? Maybe Trump will feel like the 359 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:12,840 survivor. You know, they have a lot more 360 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,360 in common with the program on the other side of the screen, I 361 00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:16,640 think. I mean, look, if he is 362 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,760 contemplating to call it a victory and walk out the exit 363 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,440 and, you know, as in you break, we break it, you keep it. 364 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:28,480 You know, in a version of the Colin Powell theory, then I 365 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,240 think there's a massive problem here because in the same vein 366 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,040 that American America can go back and do spot hits on stuff 367 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,520 it doesn't like in Iran, whether it's leaders or missile, you 368 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,160 know, units or enrichment programs, the Iranians, all they 369 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,400 have to do is fire one drone at a tanker trying to make its way 370 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:49,360 through the Strait of Hormuz And, and it's it's game over in 371 00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:51,840 terms of insurance, in terms of the tanker traffic. 372 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,040 So it takes very little for Iran to remind people of its leverage 373 00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:00,760 on the world's economic, you know, main archery and and to 374 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,800 open that archery up ultimately. And again, talking to Patrick 375 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,160 Sanders earlier, he confirmed this as well. 376 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,440 And he's a soldier, right. So in order to have a viable 377 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,840 future for the Strait of Hormuz, for the world's economic 378 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:17,760 archery, you need a political agreement with the regime in 379 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,160 Tehran, either a new regime, which we don't have, or the 380 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,720 existing regime which feels embattled and emboldened and 381 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,200 knows that with very little, it can do an awful lot of economic 382 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,360 damage. So you need that agreement and 383 00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:33,280 just going in and out, you know, as the American military to ZAP 384 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,640 a few targets here and there. It's not going to make a huge 385 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:40,440 difference, just as, you know, unlike them who can make quite a 386 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,600 big difference by going for the occasional tanker or not. 387 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,280 So whatever Trump says. And the trouble is that no one 388 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,640 really believing anything that comes out of his mouth anymore, 389 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,720 whether you're the markets or, you know, even his own cabinet 390 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,080 perhaps, although they're still showing, you know, acts of 391 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,360 fealty. At the end of the day, you need 392 00:19:56,360 --> 00:19:59,480 to sit down with the very people whose annihilation you try to 393 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:00,840 seek at the beginning of this war. 394 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,400 And I don't think that is a problem that Donald Trump is 395 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,480 fully. Come to terms with the end, 396 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,240 which feels like. A good moment to have a listen 397 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,720 to the conversation we've had with our guest, lawyer and 398 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,280 political scientist Anne Marie Slaughter, CEO of New America 399 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,720 and former State Department official under Hillary Clinton. 400 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:22,080 Anne Marie. Slaughter, thank you very much 401 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,560 for coming on Trump World. There's so much to talk about, 402 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:26,800 but let me start with this. You used to sit on a body called 403 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,560 the Foreign Affairs Policy Board under a different 404 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,760 administration, and that is one of the the jobs of the board is 405 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,000 to advise the Secretary of State, if I'm not mistaken. 406 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,520 If you were still on that board, what would you be advising Marco 407 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,160 Rubio to do right now? Right. 408 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:48,080 This moment I would be telling him to stop this war as fast as 409 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,280 possible. I think Thomas Friedman had the 410 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:57,040 right idea that both Iran and the US should give up what they 411 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,400 value most. We should not want regime change 412 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:08,160 and should want the end of an Iranian nuclear weapon, and the 413 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,800 Iranians should want to give that up. 414 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:12,960 And we could end this war, you say? 415 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:18,040 That now that they have gone as far as they have gone, it 416 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,600 becomes quite difficult. So how do you extricate yourself 417 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,240 at this point? And then also, what do you think 418 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,480 they've got wrong about Iran in all of this? 419 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,600 Well. If Matt had asked me what I 420 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:33,960 would have advised the Secretary of State in February, it would 421 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,720 very definitely have been not to start this war. 422 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:41,400 And so, yes, we've gotten further than the administration 423 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,560 ever imagined. They radically underestimated 424 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:49,360 the power of the Iranian government to inflict pain and 425 00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:52,480 indeed the the implications for the whole region. 426 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:57,680 So it is now really up more to Iran than to the US as to 427 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,560 whether we can stop this war. But I would say if the United 428 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,760 States has learned anything in the last 20 years, and I would 429 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:10,480 actually make that 30, it is that you cannot change a regime 430 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:15,400 by bombing from the air and honestly, even by sending troops 431 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,200 in on the ground. The Iraq war was a extremely 432 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:24,680 expensive and costly enterprise. Ultimately, Iraq has a better 433 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,120 government, but I don't think that's the way the Iraqis or the 434 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,680 US would have wanted it. So I think you let the Iranian 435 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,000 people work with their government how they're going to. 436 00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:37,880 I wish we had not misled them to the extent we have, but that is, 437 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,120 in the end, in their hands. I wonder. 438 00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:42,840 If that's part of the problem as well, Anne Marie, because 439 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,200 although lots of people are saying now we shouldn't have 440 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,440 done this, they shouldn't have done it was a war of choice. 441 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,120 That is not a choice they should have taken. 442 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,400 They never looked at the repercussions. 443 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,600 The Iranians are more resilient, etcetera, etcetera. 444 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,000 I don't remember hearing the same voices of clamour from 445 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,520 European leaders, you know, or indeed from some congressional 446 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,800 leaders or from journalists, you know, in January and in 447 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,760 February, when we still remembered what the Iranian 448 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,600 regime had done to thousands of protesters on the streets of 449 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,880 Tehran and other cities. I think either people didn't 450 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,280 take it seriously or they thought there was a kind of 451 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,600 moral cause because it was about regime change. 452 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,280 And, you know, we all lined up to say how brutal the the 453 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,840 ayatollahs were. And I wonder whether we're, you 454 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,600 know, we were missing a trick there as well. 455 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:34,280 We didn't warn him enough that if you do this, this is going to 456 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:35,640 happen. The only. 457 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,760 Warning this administration would have heated would have 458 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,960 been from the markets and we've seen that over and over again. 459 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:47,280 So had the markets started dropping the way they have 460 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:53,880 subsequently dropped at the very mention of the idea of going in 461 00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:59,800 with force to to enable regime change, I think then that would 462 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,720 have given everyone pause. And you, yes, in hindsight, it's 463 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,960 easy to see, oh, well, the Iranians can control the Straits 464 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,000 of Hormuz. The Iranians can use their 465 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,120 drones, which they've been supplying to the Russians for 466 00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:16,960 use in Ukraine for years now to inflict damage on soft targets 467 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,240 around the the Middle East and in the Gulf states. 468 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:25,200 That was foreseeable, not necessarily foreseen, but you 469 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,400 might have thought that the markets, certainly the oil 470 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:34,480 traders, would have at least been more perspicacious in 471 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,080 trying to game it out than this White House had been. 472 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:41,360 But we're also leaving out Israel, and that is a key 473 00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:43,680 factor. I mean, just just very briefly 474 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:49,120 on the markets, is, is part of the problem here that America or 475 00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:52,680 rather this administration became a victims, the victim of 476 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,040 its own success, both in Venezuela with a quick 477 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,600 extraction of Maduro, but also because the markets weathered 478 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,360 what should have been a really nasty year, 2025, really rather 479 00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:05,600 well. I mean, the year to end, you 480 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,680 know, free trade around the world ended with with markets, 481 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:10,680 you know, whooping, you know, with joy. 482 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,800 And I just wonder if everyone took it all too lightly. 483 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,000 There was a sort of glibness about it all and in a sense, you 484 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,880 know, or hubris, for want of a better word. 485 00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:22,840 And that's what happened, yes. I start my days these days 486 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:29,120 reading the Ancients and hubris is definitely in in play here. 487 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,160 I think that is right. There have been many analysis of 488 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,840 effectively the the disconnection between the state 489 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,640 of the markets and the state of the real economy by at least any 490 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:47,400 traditional measures where the markets feed on confidence and 491 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,160 there's a sort of mass psychological effect or some 492 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,600 might say a mass psychosis at times. 493 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:58,720 And so in this case it even here it's taken a while for people to 494 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:03,160 really understand we could be on the edge of global economic 495 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,800 cataclysm and for the markets to start moving up and down 496 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,600 depending on how likely it looks that we will end this war. 497 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,600 But I agree there was not that before. 498 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:22,000 I also do think that the success of the Venezuelan extraction, if 499 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,160 that's the way, that's certainly the way the administration 500 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,240 thinks of it, convince the president that, you know, he 501 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,840 could just take action. And the one place I agree with 502 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:37,640 him is that the international system has been very ineffective 503 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,120 at taking action. He also, you know, bombed Iran 504 00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:43,840 with, with Israel in June without much impact. 505 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,200 So I I agree that there were not though sufficient counterweights 506 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,400 in advance, not. Just Venezuela and the June 507 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,600 strikes. But even back to Soleimani, when 508 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,880 you listen to Donald Trump, he sees these as one successful 509 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,440 thing after the other. I mean, he right now is 510 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:04,120 absolutely furious with NATO allies in a way that we've not 511 00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:07,040 really seen presidents talk for. I mean, I don't think we've ever 512 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,240 seen a president attack a British Prime Minister in the 513 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,960 way Donald Trump has been doing. When you speak to the NATO 514 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:14,880 allies, when you speak to the people in the British 515 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,400 government, they say, well, you know, they can't just expect us 516 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,480 to go into a war where we haven't been told anything about 517 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,640 planning, etcetera. They're very holding, you know, 518 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,840 they're holding firm in their positions, But just how bad do 519 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,920 you think that situation is? Do you think post Trump it will 520 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,160 come back and those relationships will be rebuilt as 521 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,040 they were before? And I'm just really interested 522 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,600 in what you think of Marco Rubio in all of this, because British 523 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,680 officials usually say behind the scenes, Rubio's very pragmatic. 524 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,840 But right now he's talking like Trump about NATO as well. 525 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,680 Well, the. First thing I would say is that 526 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:54,680 the gap between what Rubio and others, but particularly Rubio's 527 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,800 say publicly and what he might say privately are very 528 00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,560 different. And you really saw that at the 529 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,840 Munich Security Conference, where he effectively gave a 530 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:07,240 speech that said we are about a Western heritage of white 531 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,680 Christian nationalism and that's what we'll support in Europe. 532 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,360 And the Europeans gave him a standing ovation for which you 533 00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:17,920 have to conclude that they are hearing different things in 534 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,240 private. And he has traditionally been an 535 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:24,360 internationalist on NATO. I don't think there will ever be 536 00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:30,440 a going back to the NATO of the 20th century or of the 1st 20 537 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,440 years, say 24 years of the 21st century. 538 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:42,440 I think the sense that the United States is changing 539 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,200 demographically and hence politically, technologically, 540 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,880 that this century we will be looking South to where 30% of 541 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:55,320 our population is coming from already under 30 and soon the 542 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,320 whole population as much as we look east. 543 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:03,240 And indeed, W that means NATO is still important for a direct 544 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,320 attack. And I don't think the president 545 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,520 can successfully pull out of NATO before the midterms and 546 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,320 with this Senate. But the idea that the United 547 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,840 States was the anchor of NATO and the Europeans could rest 548 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:21,040 secure under the the nuclear umbrella, which there was always 549 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,360 a wither NATO question that's not coming back. 550 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,080 The the the alliance will have to be repurposed for a very 551 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:29,280 different world. Anne Marie. 552 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,840 Just on the very narrow question of our relations on this island 553 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,280 with Washington, I mean, the king is going in a couple of 554 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,520 weeks and Uska will be there to cover his visit. 555 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,080 We know that Donald Trump loves royalty. 556 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,000 He loves the king. He loved the queen. 557 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,640 His mother loved the queen. He's had two sleepovers at at 558 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,680 Windsor Castle. I mean, this is this really 559 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,840 matters to him. So if you were the British Prime 560 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,840 Minister, you know, considering how much he's been insulted by 561 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,080 Donald Trump and how much the British public absolutely can't 562 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,000 stand the man, would you send the king? 563 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,480 This is your, you know, your your most effective diplomatic 564 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,760 weapon. And if you had to send the king, 565 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,360 what would you get him to say? Oh my goodness. 566 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:15,640 An American should never presume to try to advise the King. 567 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:17,680 Nobody. That you should exactly do that 568 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,880 because, you know, you've been around that block with us a few 569 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,120 times some time ago, but you know, it's exactly, precisely 570 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,400 because you're a Republic that cherishes monarchy in a weird 571 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,000 kind of way. What do you think? 572 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,080 You know, what could the king say in terms of reminding the 573 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,880 president, his host of these values which are, which are so 574 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,120 valuable that have been trampled on the. 575 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,680 King is in a particularly tricky position because it is the 250th 576 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,160 anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. 577 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,360 And I remember the 200th anniversary when when Queen 578 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,600 Elizabeth and Prince Philip came to Washington and were hosted in 579 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,040 the White House. And I remember thinking then, 580 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:04,160 well, that's an odd way to celebrate a 200th anniversary of 581 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,360 breaking from the mad King, from the the British who were 582 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,360 imposing taxation without representation. 583 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,200 But I think what I that would be the frame for the visit if the 584 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,080 visit goes ahead. And I think just knowing a 585 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,760 little about the head of state versus the Prime Minister and 586 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:28,000 the desire of the king not to be publicly involved in politics, 587 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:33,560 the framing for the visit should be the 250th and should be, you 588 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,600 know, we, we, we parted 250 years ago and we have fought 589 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,800 together for those values critically sits certainly 590 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,160 throughout the 20th century and into the 21st. 591 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:50,840 And in the end, that is the strength of the United States. 592 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,200 It is not transactional deals around the world. 593 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,440 It is the values we stand for, which honestly, at least the way 594 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,120 I learned my history, go back to the Magna Carta, even if we had 595 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,800 rather a rupture in 1776 and. Marie, can I ask you about 596 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,760 China? And China has kind of why did 597 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,080 it's time to some degree when it's come to the Iran war, but 598 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,800 it's kind of stepping forward now trying to take this 599 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,640 peacemaker role. It's come up with five points 600 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,240 with Pakistan. What do you make of both what 601 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,680 they're saying at the moment and also China's role during this 602 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,040 and likely afterwards? I would say that the 603 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:34,440 administration has handed China a gift that just keeps on 604 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,440 giving. From the moment this 605 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:44,200 administration took office in 2025 and started laying waste to 606 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,720 the international order that the United States, the British and 607 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:53,240 others had had created in 1945, China just needs to sit back and 608 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,640 let us shoot ourselves, both feet, both legs. 609 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:02,800 And this is the latest example of where, you know, countries 610 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:07,520 around the world are looking at this thinking you are inflicting 611 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,880 tremendous economic damage on us. 612 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:15,840 This is what started actually with with in 2022 with the Biden 613 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,000 administration, where in responding to Ukraine, to the 614 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,680 Russian invasion of Ukraine, we did not think through what's 615 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,880 going to happen with the sanctions, with what happens 616 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,960 with food prices and fertilizer prices for the rest of the 617 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:30,800 world. And much of the rest of the 618 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,840 world looked at that and said, it's a European war, it's not 619 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:35,760 ours. The Biden administration was 620 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,400 very surprised. China stepped in, took advantage 621 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,480 of what it could sell and what it could buy. 622 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,800 And now you really are looking at, you know, global, a global 623 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:47,560 energy crisis. And when you look at what's 624 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:52,480 happening in Asia, China has both a reserve and a you know, 625 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,640 this is a reckless madman destroying the global order. 626 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,360 We stand for stability and sovereignty. 627 00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:03,560 No mention of values, or at least not the values that we 628 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,760 have often fought for the human rights, the the and and 629 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,880 liberties, but of stability, development and calm Amory. 630 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,560 Like many of us, you were very impressed by Mark Carney's 631 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,520 speech at Davos about the rupture. 632 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,920 And and of course, he then laid out this rather vague but, you 633 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,600 know, sort of inspiring plan for the middle powers of the world 634 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:23,800 to get together. And you've written extensively 635 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,080 about that. I just wonder what you think 636 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,840 Realistically, the hope for US middle powers is when even the 637 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,480 middle powers, the middle mini powers of the European Union, 638 00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:38,239 find it difficult to to sing from a common song sheet. 639 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,000 Yes. And I must say I've been reading 640 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,719 recently, Britain and France are major middle powers. 641 00:34:45,159 --> 00:34:49,199 They are not great powers major. Middle Germany is major, major 642 00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:51,840 middle, you know, and Italy's minor middle. 643 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,080 Exactly. Any power that is neither China 644 00:34:55,719 --> 00:35:01,160 nor the US, maybe Russia or nor a small island state, everybody 645 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,480 else qualifies. I do think that the middle 646 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:10,160 powers have far more power than they realize economically. 647 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:14,920 So if you look at every state in the European Union and add 648 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:20,440 Switzerland, Norway and the UK, then add Canada, Japan, South 649 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,440 Korea and Australia, and that's leaving out powers in the global 650 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:28,200 S, just in the North. Those powers control 42% of 651 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,200 world GDP. That's a lot, right? 652 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:36,720 So if they could sing from the same song sheet economically to 653 00:35:36,720 --> 00:35:40,880 say, you know, this war has to stop now or we don't buy or sell 654 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,240 or from, from either of certainly not from the United 655 00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:48,000 States, from other warring powers, we are going to be a 656 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,720 bloc. They have a lot of economic 657 00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:54,200 power and more military power than you might think at first 658 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,320 class glance, I think at least enough to defend themselves. 659 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:03,000 That won't happen until there is an even bigger crisis than this 660 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,840 one. When I write about middle 661 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,600 powers, what I'm basically arguing is this is like 1941 662 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,360 with the Atlantic Charter. Obviously there are differences. 663 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:17,000 It is not a global war. But until you have a crisis that 664 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:21,960 convinces everyone things must change, that overrides normal 665 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,360 politics. For instance, if the United 666 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,360 States or another power were to use a nuclear weapon, I think 667 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:32,040 that would do it with that. Or we may yet get a climate 668 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:36,200 crisis where millions of people die in a heat wave, something of 669 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,480 that magnitude. Then suddenly people, 670 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,440 politicians will realize this is not normal or these are not 671 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,120 normal times. Until then, I think Prime 672 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:51,840 Minister Carney and others can build relationships, create mini 673 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:57,840 lateral coalitions for specific purposes, and plan and wait and 674 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,480 be ready to seize that moment when it comes. 675 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,000 But the. Sad thing is that you'd 676 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,800 obviously we don't want that moment ever to come because it 677 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,320 would be a tragedy on a massive scale. 678 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,440 But without that moment you can't get real change. 679 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,560 I wonder whether the way the world is being handled or 680 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,480 mishandled at the moment by a number of players, you'll say we 681 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,960 are setting ourselves up for that kind of catastrophe that 682 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,680 will finally concentrate our minds. 683 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,480 I. Think that moment will come? 684 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:29,640 It could be an AI moment, but it will be something cataclysmic. 685 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,400 And yes, absolutely, we don't want that moment and we have to 686 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,680 hope that moment is not so cataclysmic that we really have 687 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,080 done ourselves in. But traditionally, if you look 688 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,080 at the history of international law, you look at the Geneva 689 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,560 Conventions, you look at the United Nations itself first, the 690 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:51,880 League of Nations, really from 1815 forward or from 1648 691 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:57,600 forward, it has been dramatic wars and other kinds of 692 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:02,840 associated crises that have created the momentum and the 693 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,360 moment for real change. Anne Marie. 694 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,720 Can I ask you about the two wars we're seeing at the moment, 695 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,120 Russia and Ukraine, as well as Iran? 696 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,800 On Ukraine, the language coming out of America is getting more 697 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,320 and more negative. You know, this idea that it's 698 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,200 not our war, stepping away from it. 699 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:22,160 How worried are you about that? And on Iran, Donald Trump 700 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,560 clearly wants out. He wants out quite quickly. 701 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,640 Do you think that's the direction we're heading in with? 702 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:33,880 Ukraine, even in 2022, from the stage of the Munich Security 703 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:38,200 Conference, Americans acknowledged that that Europe, 704 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:42,000 including Britain, the EU and, and, and Britain and others, 705 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,440 we're doing much more than the United States. 706 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,680 And that was not just economically, that was also 707 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:52,000 supplying weapons. Now, essentially what the United 708 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,800 States is doing is selling weapons to the Europeans to give 709 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,840 to Ukraine. We're unlikely to stop doing 710 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:04,800 that effectively. We have said to Ukraine and to 711 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,600 Europe, you're not completely on your own. 712 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,880 We're still supplying intelligence and other things. 713 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:11,960 But this is going to be up to you. 714 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:17,600 And Europe has every reason to do what is effectively a winning 715 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,080 strategy long term. As long as Russia's not winning, 716 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:26,400 it's losing. Russia is losing 30,000 soldiers 717 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,080 a month, which is a staggering number. 718 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,320 And as long as Ukraine can keep inflicting that kind of damage, 719 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,760 I think you can hold out for quite a long time. 720 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,040 So I'm, I'm less, I don't think the US holds the key to the end 721 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:44,880 of the Ukraine war in Iran. I think it's pretty clear this 722 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,760 administration wants out. It's signaling in every way. 723 00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:52,240 But again, it's not going to be up to us. 724 00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:57,440 It may be that there are enough pragmatists in some kind of 725 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,840 leadership in Iran who have not been assassinated by the 726 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:05,520 Israelis to do a deal, but you need some very good 727 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:10,400 intermediaries and and some honestly, some good fortune. 728 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,400 Anne Marie. I just want to finish off with 729 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,520 one final question, which is this. 730 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,440 I know that Donald Trump wants out of this Iran war that he 731 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:18,840 himself started with the Israelis. 732 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,560 But let's say he can't get out smoothly or quickly or 733 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,920 elegantly, and he gets stuck. And maybe Kharg Island turns out 734 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,160 to be a bit of a trap for the US Marines, and the Israelis are 735 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,200 still upset that there isn't genuine regime change. 736 00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:35,920 Is it conceivable in your mind, even in, you know, the the 737 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,040 darkest kind of reaches of it, that in this world where 738 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,840 everything seems to be shaken up, Donald Trump or the Israelis 739 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,960 could use a nuclear weapon to try and do something that they 740 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,160 couldn't do by conventional military means? 741 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,400 I have. Learned never to say that 742 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:56,720 something is inconceivable with this this administration, 743 00:40:56,720 --> 00:41:00,240 including their very election back in 2016. 744 00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:07,040 So it is not conceivable to me. I do think the nuclear taboo is, 745 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:13,160 is that crisis where suddenly the American people turn on the 746 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:17,120 administration and nations come together again. 747 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,800 When Putin suggested that he was going to use a quote, UN quote, 748 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,360 tactical nuclear weapon in Ukraine, a weapon that would 749 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,280 still be far greater than the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and 750 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:32,760 Nagasaki, Suddenly the Chinese moved into, you know, swung into 751 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,680 action and essentially, as far as we can tell, let Putin know 752 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,560 that would be the end of Chinese support and that would be the 753 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:43,480 end of the war. So I, I truly think that that 754 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:49,120 that would be cataclysmic politically, both nationally and 755 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:56,200 globally, but I would, I think it'd be folly to rule anything 756 00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:57,960 out with the man in the White House. 757 00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:01,600 So you, when you said it's conceivable, you meant it's not 758 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,080 inconceivable. That's correct. 759 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:05,160 Anne Marie Slaughter, thank you very much for your time. 760 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,480 That was Anne Marie Slaughter. We leave Trump world this week 761 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,960 at what feels to me like quite a potentially large turning point 762 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:17,440 not just for the war in Iran, but the geopolitics much more 763 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,480 broadly. Beyond that, a moment where and 764 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,040 if you agree with this, Matt, where we're seeing the shifting 765 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,360 plates from the power of America, possibly to the power 766 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:30,480 and peacemaking nature of China. Let's see where that goes. 767 00:42:30,720 --> 00:42:34,240 A moment where Donald Trump is looking for a way out, but then 768 00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:37,320 we'll have to argue to the American public that he has 769 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,320 achieved his objectives and it sounds like that could be quite 770 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,200 difficult for him to do. What do you think? 771 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:44,240 Well. Yes. 772 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,520 And first of all, for us, I think, you know, to go from the 773 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,000 embrace of Uncle Sam, which we're all used to, to the 774 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:53,040 embrace, the slightly, the Stelia embrace of Uncle she is 775 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,560 something that perhaps, you know, we we haven't really got 776 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,720 our own head around, but that's maybe where we're heading in 777 00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:00,240 terms of, you know, is this a key moment? 778 00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:01,840 I mean, every week seems like a key moment. 779 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,120 I suspect to Nurska that Donald Trump will not remember this 780 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,880 week as a week in which he really, really, genuinely, 781 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:09,440 seriously threatened to pull out of NATO. 782 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,000 But the week in which his great beautiful project of the big 783 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,880 beautiful ballroom died a very sudden legal death because a 784 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:18,920 judge said he shouldn't have done it. 785 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:20,960 He couldn't. You know, you can't, you know, 786 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,360 take down this, this, this listed building that is the 787 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,000 White House or bits of it. What's the? 788 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,040 Judge going to do rebuild it well. 789 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:29,000 Exactly. This is it. 790 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,080 What's the judge going to do? But remember, on one of the 791 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:36,320 trips back from Mar a Lago to to Washington in, you know, Air 792 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,840 Force One, he went to the back to talk to the press and he 793 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,040 suddenly pulled out these enormous cards of what the 794 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:42,720 ballroom will look like. It was so. 795 00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:45,520 Surreal that moment, Matt. So surreal. 796 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,440 He's standing there talking about this unbelievably 797 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,400 consequential war, and then he suddenly like, hang on a minute, 798 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,760 let me just pull this out. There was another moment when a 799 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,920 presenter on Fox News asked Donald Trump, do we know whether 800 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,280 or not the people in Iran are getting food and water? 801 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:04,760 And Donald Trump went, oh, yeah, yeah, I'll tell you. 802 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,440 But first, do you remember when we had lunch in Trump Tower? 803 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,040 Do you mind me saying that you're even more beautiful than 804 00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,040 you were then? I feel like I have walked 805 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:14,880 through the looking glass. It is surreal. 806 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:17,800 Or when he went on about Sharpie pens. 807 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,000 Do you remember that? In the mouth and the Sharpie. 808 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:21,440 Boss said never happened anything. 809 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,840 The Sharpie pens, I mean, look, you know, just as having met the 810 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:26,600 guy, that's what he does in conversation. 811 00:44:26,720 --> 00:44:30,800 He likes to call it the weave, but the weave and a time of war 812 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,160 when people are hanging on your every word can be very 813 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,040 perplexing indeed. I think let's stop weaving then, 814 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:38,400 right? And let's shut this down. 815 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,400 Trump Weld. Trump Weld has woven out for 816 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,360 this week another extraordinary week in American politics. 817 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,040 And of course, what happens in Washington doesn't stay in 818 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,640 Washington, does it? Not even you, I will be. 819 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,800 Back in Washington, DC next week, getting ready for that big 820 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:56,760 visit from the King. I'm so. 821 00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:57,840 Jealous. I'm so jealous. 822 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,920 I will be here in London watching you, watching him 823 00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,320 watching them. That's it from Trumbold. 824 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:04,560 Thanks for listening.