1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:01,600 He's pulled out of things in the past. 2 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,920 Taco, chicken, chicken run. This is a chicken run for me. 3 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:07,160 The question is whether the chicken is headless or not. 4 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:11,000 And I do think that, you know, yet again, Trump is veering, you 5 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:12,560 know, from one position to another. 6 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:16,640 You can feel, can't you, in his true social post, that Donald 7 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,840 Trump is getting so frustrated with the narrative. 8 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:22,200 He's really hitting out at the media. 9 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:26,040 He wants people to think that he's crazy, that he can do 10 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:28,240 anything, that he's unpredictable and that you don't 11 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:35,400 want to overstep with him. Hello and welcome to Trump 12 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,400 world. I'm Matt Fine London, and it's a 13 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:39,360 case of war interrupted, isn't it in. 14 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,000 I'm Anish Kristana in Washington, DC, and it has been 15 00:00:43,480 --> 00:00:48,720 a pretty frantic few days, culminating in Donald Trump once 16 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,600 again stepping back from the brink. 17 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,400 So what the president said when he stepped back from the brink 18 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:57,720 was that he was going to extend the ceasefire. 19 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,880 And this morning, the White House have told Fox News that 20 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,680 that will be a three to five day extension. 21 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,000 Which, by the way, in this case, the same amount of time it'll 22 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:12,160 take for that third aircraft carrier group, the USS George HW 23 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,800 Bush, to get into place in the Middle East. 24 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,480 So we could be in a very, very different world by the time we 25 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:20,400 get into the weekend. You get the impression, don't 26 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,760 you, Matt, that he doesn't want to see through the threats that 27 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:28,160 he repeatedly keeps making and so he's looking for reasons to 28 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,280 step away from them. And in the most recent case, he 29 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,480 stepped away from them because he says Pakistan asked him to. 30 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:37,320 Do you? Do you buy that? 31 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,000 Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm not sure whether, you know, he's 32 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:41,400 listening to the Pakistanis on this. 33 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,600 I'm sure they would love to continue talks because they want 34 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,800 to be seen as the global mediators on this crisis, on 35 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:49,880 this war. But, you know, he's pulled out 36 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,480 of things in the past. Taco chicken, chicken run. 37 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,040 This is a chicken run for me. The question is whether the 38 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,080 chicken is headless or not. And I do think that, you know, 39 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,360 yet again, Trump is veering, you know, from one position to 40 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,160 another. I think it's fair to say that we 41 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,760 we kind of know what he wants. You know, bottom line, he wants 42 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:08,560 to be able to stop the fighting and call it victory. 43 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,920 And so far, the Iranians are not prepared to do him that favour. 44 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,840 Yeah, and it is really clear from listening, for example, to 45 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:16,760 his press secretary, Caroline Levitt. 46 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,760 But for all the big threats, when she was asked about the 47 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,280 biggest one of all, when he said he was going to kill a 48 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:27,560 civilization, they see it only as a negotiating tactic. 49 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,120 One that they think is brilliant because obviously they have hit 50 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,360 the military quite hard, but one which they don't actually want 51 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,320 to see through. They're just using it to try to 52 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:38,360 get to a good position on negotiations. 53 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,360 But we have had this kind of bizarre few days. 54 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,120 On Friday when I was obviously reporting for the news, we had 55 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,680 this moment where Donald Trump had said JD Vance and the other 56 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:51,040 negotiators are already on their way to Pakistan. 57 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:55,760 Next thing, we saw JD Vance's motorcade pull up at the White 58 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,480 House, not in Islamabad. And we were like, hmm, what's 59 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,240 going on here? So we started to make phone 60 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:01,960 calls, try and work out what was going on. 61 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:06,560 Sources were saying to me the delegation is going to go very 62 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,080 soon. But the problem they've 63 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,400 obviously had is that on the Iranian side, and at some point 64 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,200 we're going to talk about the splits on the Iranian side, They 65 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:15,480 decided they didn't want to turn up. 66 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:17,880 And they've actually been mocking the Americans, you know, 67 00:03:17,920 --> 00:03:20,960 with these videos of them turning up and the Iranians not 68 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,440 being there. And so, as we have it right now, 69 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:25,800 the American negotiators have not gone. 70 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,320 And the latest movement for Donald Trump is that Pakistan 71 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,520 asked him to step back. So he is stepping back. 72 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,360 But obviously in that time, Matt, we're already getting 73 00:03:34,640 --> 00:03:37,360 action from the Iranian side, which is going to be annoying 74 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,280 the White House. Well, indeed, and I'm not just 75 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,920 talking about their Lego production or these 76 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,000 extraordinarily entertaining memes that they seem to be 77 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,200 churning out or that people are churning out at at a daily rate. 78 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,760 The other point of course in Erska is that the American 79 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,880 counter blockade of the Iranian blockade that was announced 2 80 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:57,080 Sundays ago doesn't seem to be quite as impervious as the 81 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:01,320 Americans have claimed. Their reports that perhaps as 82 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,200 many as 34 vessels, either Iranian vessels are linked to 83 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,000 Iran. They've been able to travel, you 84 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,120 know, in both directions. I'm not sure quite what the 85 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,840 numbers are, 19 one way and then 15 the other way. 86 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,040 But the point is they're getting through. 87 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,839 How did they get through? It's a little bit embarrassing 88 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:20,680 for the US. They've not exactly been 89 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,520 advertising this, but but that seems to be happening. 90 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,720 At the same time, the Iranians seem to be more robust about 91 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,840 enforcing their blockade because we know that just, you know, 92 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:34,720 overnight and early this morning, at least 2 vessels have 93 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,000 been taking hostage, if you like, by the Iranians have been 94 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,400 directed, you know, at force into Iranian waters. 95 00:04:40,840 --> 00:04:43,520 And another one may or may not have been fired on. 96 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,880 So there's a bit of confusion about who's who's doing how much 97 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:49,960 to enforce their various blockades. 98 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,640 So both sides are trying to make their blockade work. 99 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:55,680 It works in various different ways. 100 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,280 Sometimes it's more efficient than at other times. 101 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,800 And then you've got this continued buildup of American 102 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:07,880 military power in the region. the US SHGW, George HW Bush has 103 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,720 arrived in the Middle East. That's the third aircraft 104 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,400 carrier group. I don't know how many more 105 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,400 thousands of men involved in. I think it's another 5000 men 106 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,200 altogether. I mean, America is ramping up. 107 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,280 What we're not sure of, Anoushka, is whether they're 108 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:25,200 doing this in order to negotiate with these extra widgets on the 109 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:29,120 map, or are they doing this because at some stage they might 110 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,440 actually be involved in a ground invasion, something that the 111 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,560 vice the White House has not officially ruled out. 112 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:36,960 I mean, they haven't ruled it out, but what they want to do is 113 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,080 get in that room in Islamabad and actually have the 114 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,600 negotiation. They want the team to leave the 115 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:42,840 US. So let's try something a bit 116 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:45,600 different here, Matt, a little bit of role play. 117 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,600 I can I, can I be the Iranian? Can I be Matt call a Matt 118 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,800 please? Okay, okay, you play the 119 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:52,200 Iranians, I'll. Play Are you gonna be? 120 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,320 Are you gonna be JD Vance or Jared Kushner or Ritkov? 121 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,280 I'm coming in as JD Vance. I think he's the key negotiator 122 00:05:58,280 --> 00:06:00,800 in the eyes of Donald Trump. Okay, so Matt, the first thing I 123 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,840 want is I want the Strait of Hormuz reopened and ships 124 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,120 flowing freely through it as they were before. 125 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:12,520 And no, you can't take control of it again #2 you need to give 126 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:17,720 me that entire enriched uranium, which we tried to decimate with 127 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,040 Operation Midnight Hammer last June. 128 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,600 But obviously the material, is it still there, the nuclear 129 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,320 dust, as the president calls it. I'll just pop out and have a 130 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,200 chat to him on the phone about that Back in now. 131 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,840 Turns out he definitely wants that dust out, but he might be 132 00:06:30,840 --> 00:06:33,000 willing to accept Pakistan taking it out. 133 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:40,040 And thirdly, we want you to not make any more enriched uranium 134 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:45,360 for 20 years, although it sounds like maybe we could accept 10 as 135 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,240 long as it's longer than Obama got. 136 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,120 OK, so because we're very reasonable, even though you've 137 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,280 bombed us to smithereens and you've destroyed some of our 138 00:06:54,280 --> 00:06:59,160 best bridges and threatened to destroy our entire civilization, 139 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,480 we are reasonable people prepared to have a reasonable 140 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,320 conversation. So this is what we won't give up 141 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,640 and this is where we might have a conversation. 142 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:12,040 So on the enrichment thingy, the idea that we can never enrich 143 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,560 uranium, which you also seem to be asking for now and again. 144 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,360 And we're not never quite sure what you actually demanding. 145 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:22,160 Because Jay Vance, you say one thing and then your boss Donald 146 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,200 Trump says something else and he says it on social media. 147 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,920 Can we just do this behind closed doors instead of in the 148 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,120 public domain? Just saying that would be really 149 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,640 nice. Anyway, on enrichment, we we 150 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:37,120 want to have preserved the right that should we want to enrich at 151 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,200 some stage for civilian purposes, we have that right and 152 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,720 will it will not be questioned and you won't bomb us in order 153 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:45,960 to get rid of that right. So that's got to be written in 154 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:47,840 stone. And we can then argue about 155 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:52,960 whether there's a moratorium of 15 years or 20 years, which we 156 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,680 don't like, but we can maybe agree on 15. 157 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,800 Ideally we'd go for 10. Okay, so that's that the idea 158 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:04,720 that we can no longer talk to our friends and allies, which is 159 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,640 what they are in the region, like Hezbollah, the party of 160 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,680 God, or Hamas or the Houthis in Yemen, who we have been helping 161 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:13,200 and mentoring. And sometimes we've been 162 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,880 mentoring them with weapons. We, we, we can't let that go 163 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:18,280 away. We'd also, by the way, like some 164 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,240 reparations for all the stuff that you've destroyed. 165 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,320 And we can talk about whether that's 20 billion or 25 billion. 166 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,800 And by the way, the Strait of Hormuz, which I know we've 167 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,680 always been incredibly generous since the revolution 47 years 168 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,480 ago of keeping that open as a waterway. 169 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,320 But I'm afraid it is kind of very close to our territory. 170 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,080 And depending on which bits of maritime law you look at, we do 171 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,120 have some rights over it. And why not pay a little tariff 172 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,880 to get your tanker through? After all, you, your 173 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,280 administration, raised the whole issue of tariffs with your best 174 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:55,280 friends, so your moral high ground on that one is as tiny as 175 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,280 the smallest beach on Hague Island. 176 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,240 Put that in your pipe and smoke it. 177 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,120 My my side, the president says that he's happy with the tolls 178 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,480 as long as we get the money. Yeah, right, the out of the 179 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:06,960 deal. Well, stuff that I'll tell you 180 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,320 what, not even 5050 because remember Amman, our dear 181 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,160 neighbor Amman, they want some of that money too. 182 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:16,640 So we we could possibly, possibly talk about a 3030 183 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:23,400 split. 3030 thirty 30% for a man, 30% for us, 30% not for you 184 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,760 directly, but for some charitable you know of your of 185 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:29,960 your choosing. And I thank you for your 186 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,440 attention to this matter. In caps. 187 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,800 Matt, I think you'd be a perfect Iranian negotiator. 188 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,960 You know, JD Vance, as me would hand it all over to you. 189 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,280 But look, I think kind of one thing that that just sets out is 190 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,520 how far apart the two sides are, particularly if Donald Trump 191 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,760 wants this deal to be better than what's been negotiated 192 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:51,080 before. And I think one of the really 193 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,960 big problems right now and, and tell me what you think on this 194 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,480 is that he keeps saying, oh, we've had regime change because 195 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,400 there are different people in charge and they're more 196 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,680 reasonable people in charge. And actually, those people he's 197 00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:05,840 talking about might be the speaker of the parliament, might 198 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,640 be the foreign minister, both of whom have been slightly 199 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:15,360 humiliated internally in Iran by the hardline military wing of 200 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,440 the, you know, countries control, which, by the way, the 201 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,760 Americans were always warned could take more control if they 202 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,280 bombed Iran. The IRG, see, their leaders are 203 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,880 saying, no, actually, we need to be much more hardline on this, I 204 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:28,120 thought. So. 205 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,600 I suppose the question is, if they get into the room, which 206 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:33,240 Iranians are they negotiating with? 207 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:35,400 Yes. And if I was still in the role 208 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:37,880 play, which I'm not, I might say, which Donald Trump, which 209 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,040 side of his brain are we negotiating with? 210 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,880 But let's, Yeah, I mean, take your point of analysis 211 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:44,880 seriously. I think it would be silly to 212 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,680 think that there were no splits inside the Iranian regime. 213 00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:51,640 There were splits before this war started. 214 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,360 There were splits immediately after it started. 215 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,880 We know that from the National Security Council when they went 216 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,440 through the process of appointing, electing the 217 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:06,600 successor to the supreme leader, his son was put in first of all. 218 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,640 A lot of people on the Security Council didn't like that. 219 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,800 Once the son was anointed, they basically complained about it. 220 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,520 They went, they revisited the whole process and then the 221 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:18,920 result of that was still Mustafa Khamenei. 222 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,480 But there were clearly spits within the regime and they have 223 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,440 been fair ever since I started taking an interest in Iran 224 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:26,960 between the hardliners and the reformers, which is a very 225 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:28,840 simplistic way of bracketing them. 226 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,720 But that's kind of where we were and that's where we are. 227 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,160 Except the big difference is that the Iranian Revolutionary 228 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:40,120 Guard Corps has acquired more power as a result of the war. 229 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:45,320 And and therefore it does seem to be in control of matters at 230 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,280 the moment, partly because it has the finger, its fingers on 231 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:50,760 all the triggers that matter. The internal ones with the bus 232 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,120 siege mowing down any protesters they didn't back in January. 233 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:56,640 And then the external ones when it comes to firing zones or 234 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,920 missiles targets in the Gulf or wherever or Israel. 235 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,960 So they seem to have the uphand. And it's not surprising that in 236 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,680 a revolutionary society, the most revolutionary part of that, 237 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,880 that is also becoming incredibly good at, you know, doing 238 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,560 business deals around the world through shady intermediaries, 239 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,520 you know, has been doing military training and exercises 240 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,400 forever about precisely this kind of scenario. 241 00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:22,560 It is not surprising that they should be in charge, especially 242 00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:25,520 when the the kind of top leadership has been decapitated. 243 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,400 What we don't really know for certain is whether these rumours 244 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,240 that we've heard that, you know, Pezeskyan, the president, 245 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,920 Arachi, the foreign minister and the speaker of the the 246 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,240 parliament have been sidelined in any way. 247 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,800 But there's clearly trouble at Mill because Arachi, the weekend 248 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,000 said we're going to open in the straits, the Strait of Hormuz, 249 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,440 and we will hand over indefinitely the enriched 250 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:49,280 uranium. Then it turns out that that was 251 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,320 not the case. So I think, you know, there's 252 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:53,480 confusion inside the Iranian camp. 253 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,800 But as I said earlier, Anushka, that is hardly surprising 254 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,840 considering the nature of this war and the nature of Iranian 255 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:02,960 society. The question is, what do they 256 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,360 want? Do they also want a cessation of 257 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,120 the fighting, perhaps to rearm? And do they want to be able to 258 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:09,920 call that victory? Perhaps. 259 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,720 And there are other kind of moves in the chess game that 260 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,280 they're all playing which have other geopolitical consequences. 261 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,280 You know, the idea that's being discussed at the moment that 262 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,360 Pakistan could be in charge of removing the enriched uranium, 263 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,840 well, that's not going to be very popular with India. 264 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,240 It's not going to be very popular with Israel, who 265 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,480 obviously won't trust Pakistan in that role. 266 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,680 I just think like the reality, as we've been saying for a long 267 00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:38,120 time, is that the red lines are really far apart. 268 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:42,160 And finding a, you know, landing zone may be possible, but it's 269 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,880 not going to please everybody who is a player in this. 270 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,200 And then there's the other thing that's happening here in 271 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,160 Washington, DC, which is the focus is shifting very heavily 272 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,160 on the midterms. We've had a situation in the 273 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,760 last week where Susie Wiles, Donald Trump's chief of staff, 274 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:01,880 is said to have been holed up in hotel rooms with Republican 275 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,520 strategist trying to work out how on earth they can put 276 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,480 themselves in a positive position ahead of the midterms. 277 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,560 And the thing they're worrying about more so than what's 278 00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:15,120 happening in Iran, is what is the economic impact of what's 279 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:19,400 happening in Iran? Here in the US, there was, you 280 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,440 know, the energy Secretary, Chris Wright suggesting that, 281 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,480 and this might sound fine compared to what it's going, 282 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,600 what's going on in the UK, but, you know, petrol might not fall 283 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,280 to below $3 a gallon until next year. 284 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:32,960 Well, that's after the elections. 285 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,000 And, you know, some sources from inside the administration saying 286 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,560 that would be a bit of a disaster for them politically. 287 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,520 And one of the reasons why I think you can see, you can feel, 288 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:45,160 can't you, in his true social posts that Donald Trump is 289 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,960 getting so frustrated with the narrative. 290 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,280 He's really hitting out at the media at the moment, 291 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,480 particularly angry at the moment with The Wall Street Journal and 292 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,200 Rupert Murdoch, I noticed. And of course, everyone likes 293 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,240 to, you know, pile into these, into this anger and to this 294 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,120 debate. I noticed there was a wonderful 295 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,680 post on social media by 1 Dmitri Medvedev, the former Russian 296 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,160 President and Prime Minister, saying, you know, you know the I 297 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,640 paraphrase here, but the Iranians were always looking for 298 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:13,520 their nuclear weapon. They found their nuclear weapon 299 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,240 and they're testing it. It's called the Strait of 300 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,440 Hormuz. So for the Russians who are 301 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,560 actually making money out of the blockade of the Strait because 302 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,560 the price of oil has gone up and, and, and sanctions against 303 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,040 them have been partially lifted. I mean, they're laughing all the 304 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:27,880 way to the bank. They can't believe it's all 305 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,560 their Christmases at once. At a time when their their war 306 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,480 economy really needs to have a bit of a financial boost in 307 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,560 order to try and prevail more against Ukraine. 308 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:38,880 And then the other point, I think, and I should have said 309 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,560 this when I was in my Iranian mode, of course, they have every 310 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,720 reason to distrust whatever the Americans might be up to because 311 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,680 twice the Americans have been negotiating supposedly in good 312 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,400 faith with Iran and twice they've interrupted these 313 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,200 negotiations with bombs and started a war. 314 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:56,960 They did it last June. They did again at the end of 315 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,640 February. So why would you as an Iranian, 316 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:04,120 as a, as a naturally distrustful Iranian, for you know who, who 317 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,560 is never like the Great Satan? Why would you trust anything 318 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,320 they say or even the process of them saying it if they have 319 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:13,800 interrupted that in the past with the war? 320 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,600 And while at the same time today there's this massive military 321 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,920 buildup of U.S. forces, the biggest that we've seen since 322 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,080 the Iraq War of 2003 in your neighborhood. 323 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,320 Why don't we just put all these questions to our guest this 324 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,720 week, And that is Jasmine Al Gamal. 325 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,200 She's a former Middle East advisor in the Pentagon from 326 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:38,640 2008 to 2015. Can I start by asking, what do 327 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,520 you think the biggest risk here is for Donald Trump? 328 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:46,360 I mean, look, he he gambled. You know, this was a pretty 329 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,000 risky gamble for President Trump to go into this war. 330 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,000 And I don't think he really understood exactly what he was 331 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,320 getting into. I mean, that's the scariest part 332 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:58,280 about watching all of this unfold has been to realize just 333 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:02,040 how little he understood the Iranian regime, how little he 334 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:06,920 understood, you know, how pressure would do the opposite 335 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:08,640 of what he wanted. Exactly. 336 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,720 I always describe the Iranian regime as a submarine, right? 337 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,240 It is meant to withstand immense amounts of pressure. 338 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:20,480 And the more pressure you put on it, the more it kind of hunkers 339 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,200 down and tries to get through. And so that's what we're seeing 340 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,200 now. So we've gotten ourselves in a 341 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,320 situation where every time there's been even a remote 342 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,440 chance for an off ramp, Donald Trump will get on Truth Social, 343 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,640 and he will post something that makes it seem like the Iranians 344 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:41,280 are completely surrendering and capitulating, and that makes 345 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,360 them dig in even further. So it's been this really vicious 346 00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:47,520 cycle of, you know, ray of light, ray of hope, and then a 347 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,120 Truth Social post, and then we're back to where we started 348 00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:52,480 again. So right now the ceasefire has 349 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,520 been extended and we're going to see if the mediators can try to 350 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:00,280 help both sides find some way to a compromise this time. 351 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,520 And can I ask, one thing we've heard from, from people who have 352 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:08,080 worked in the State Department and in the Pentagon previously 353 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:13,040 is that America's view of what would happen if you were to 354 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:17,160 start a war in Iran like this was always that it would end up 355 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:22,200 with a more hardline IRGC focused leadership there. 356 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,960 Is this kind of unfolding, as would have been warned to Donald 357 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,200 Trump, or is there an argument that ultimately they have 358 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,120 degraded the military so much? There comes a point where there 359 00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:35,520 is a huge risk here for Iran. And it does ultimately, you 360 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,200 know, the government does ultimately collapse. 361 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,240 Great question. I mean, I can tell you from my 362 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,000 experience of the Pentagon, I was a civil servant during the 363 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,480 Obama administration and during the time when the JCP OA was 364 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,840 negotiated. And so two things I want to say 365 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,800 on that. One is you're absolutely right. 366 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,880 I mean, every plan, every scenario that we had put 367 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:58,400 together for if the US goes to war with Iran for whatever 368 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:03,200 reason, that Iran would both become more hardline and that it 369 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:08,560 would attack US bases and personnel and allies in the 370 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:10,840 Gulf. So everything that we're seeing 371 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:15,160 unfold was expected and some we didn't really expect that it 372 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,880 would go after civilian structure or energy 373 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,760 infrastructure necessarily, but there is and was an 374 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,400 understanding that if Iran were to feel existentially 375 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,800 threatened, that it would try to take down the entire region 376 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,600 along with it. The other thing I wanted to 377 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:37,000 point out from my experience is that these negotiations take so 378 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,120 much time and effort. The Obama administration had 379 00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:43,760 tons of technical and legal experts working on this file, 380 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,840 not just policy experts, people who not only understood Iran but 381 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,920 also understood the technical issues of the negotiations. 382 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:56,400 And it took months for these negotiations to eventually bear 383 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,400 fruit. And in parallel with the 384 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:02,440 negotiating process with Iran, the Obama team was also doing a 385 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:07,240 lot of work inside domestically in the US, briefing Congress, 386 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,640 briefing various interest groups around the country, you know, 387 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,480 speaking to the American people, getting all the domestic 388 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,960 constituencies. For for an eventual agreement. 389 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,040 None of that has happened under the Trump administration. 390 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,440 Jasmine, I mean, you pointed to all those plans, you know, all 391 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,160 the potential war games that were outlined for years, 392 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,880 languishing in a draw somewhere in various Pentagon offices. 393 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:37,400 I mean, what's the process here? This is P Texas, the so-called 394 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,720 Secretary of War, told about these things and then he ignores 395 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:42,640 them. Or does he not ignore them and 396 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,920 take them to the president, who then ignores them? 397 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,640 Or is that just the kind of culture where they say we're not 398 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,560 interested in, in this stuff we know best? 399 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,280 You're being far too negative. Don't give us the nuance and the 400 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,600 boring detail. We're going with overwhelming 401 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:58,400 force. Is that what do you think has 402 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,800 happened to the culture of leadership inside the Pentagon 403 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:03,840 and the White House? I mean, I'll tell you, process 404 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,160 is a dirty word in this administration. 405 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:07,680 There is no such thing as process. 406 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,720 There's a handful of people making decisions and briefing 407 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,400 the president and being tasked with all of these really 408 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,000 important files. You have Steve Witkoff and Jared 409 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,200 Kushner, who have, you know, the Russia Ukraine file you had. 410 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,120 They have Iran, they have Gaza and Israel, Middle East peace. 411 00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:29,000 The, the, you know, there, there's no way that a handful of 412 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,920 people could cover all of these issues at the same time. 413 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,600 You had a process that it started in the first Trump term 414 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,840 and continued in the second one, which was just a hollowing out 415 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,520 of the State Department and the national security staff and the 416 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,800 Defense Department. So all of these experts that I 417 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:49,120 had mentioned earlier are just are simply not there as well as 418 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:51,760 ambassadors in the region. You know, go look at how many 419 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,200 ambassador posts are empty all across, you know, Africa, the 420 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,600 Middle East, other countries. And so it's an administration 421 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:03,560 that that is dealing with foreign policy as like it deals 422 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,520 with real estate deals in the private sector. 423 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,400 You know, they want it to be quick, They want it to be 424 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,800 nimble. And of course that doesn't work 425 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,760 in a situation like this. I mean, this whole transactional 426 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,040 attitude that Trump has towards the world, you know, it comes 427 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,400 up, you know, it comes up against, it collides with the 428 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,280 reality of something like the Iranian regime where you get 429 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,080 other factors in play like legacy and history and pride. 430 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,400 It also, by the way, you know, comes into play when you treat 431 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,240 your European friends and allies like dirt in the way that he's 432 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,880 done. And I mean, what's what's so 433 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,880 astonishing about this is how long do you think it might take 434 00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:46,120 of this standoff for them to realize that maybe they should 435 00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:50,080 try something else, that this branding approach to 436 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,280 geopolitics, you stick Trump's name on it and it'll somehow 437 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,080 magically get solved, isn't working anymore. 438 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:57,760 Yeah. So this is a good question 439 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,400 because it comes to the point of timelines. 440 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,920 I always describe this as a as a war of timelines and a war of 441 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:08,040 will who will be able to withstand pressure for longer. 442 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,800 And that's where the US actually comes at a disadvantage to the 443 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,800 Iranian regime, right? Because it also goes to 444 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,320 something we were talking about just a few minutes ago about, 445 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,720 you know, how strong can the Iranian regime last you 446 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,640 mentioned that their military capabilities have been degraded. 447 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,880 Well, yes, absolutely they have been degraded, but not degraded 448 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:31,080 enough to allow the Iranians to change their strategy. 449 00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:35,440 When you think about the bar that it's so low for survival 450 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,080 and in in the sense that they only be, they only need to be 451 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,520 able to threaten the state of Hormuz. 452 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,360 They don't actually need 100% of their capabilities to do so. 453 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,680 They can get away with it with 50%. 454 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,480 They can probably even get away with it with 25%. 455 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,440 So in order for the regime to sort of hunker down and stay in 456 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,200 place, it doesn't need to be at the level that it was before 457 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,000 this war. It just needs to be able to 458 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,600 survive and to have that threat always looming. 459 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,360 And you know, these threats, they're drones. 460 00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:09,640 They're $10,000 drones. You know, they don't need much 461 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,800 in order to create havoc. the US, on the other hand, is much 462 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,960 more constrained. In order to go in, for example, 463 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,320 and physically change this regime, you would need hundreds 464 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,240 of thousands of U.S. troops on the ground. 465 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,160 That's not something that is an option for President Trump. 466 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,160 You need, if you if you get into another confrontation, a 467 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,240 military confrontation, you need more US assets. 468 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,680 That means more U.S. troops lives at risk. 469 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,320 I mean, these are all things, let alone the global economy and 470 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,720 the state that it's in. You have midterm elections 471 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,000 looming. You have a summit with China 472 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,320 coming up that Trump does not want to go to that summit with 473 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,240 this war hanging over his head. So the US has much more pressure 474 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,200 points. You know, ironically, you 475 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,200 wouldn't think, but it does to bring this war to a close. 476 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,920 So one would hope that all of these different factors are in 477 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,280 play right now as we enter into this new potential round of 478 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,600 negotiations And all all the two parties need. 479 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,280 It's a big it's a big one. It's not just, you know, all 480 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,680 they need, but they they need us a face saving way to end this 481 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,800 conflict. And they don't need to agree on 482 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,600 all the points. They just need to agree on a 483 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,560 framework so that that framework can be presented as something 484 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,640 that both sides can say we got what we wanted. 485 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,920 We didn't concede on anything too painful and then hopefully 486 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:36,720 the rest of the negotiations can take place over months away from 487 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,720 the glare of the cameras. Can I ask you about the kind of 488 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,120 things we're getting from America, which are completely 489 00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:47,240 unprecedented in the way we're used to America behaving? 490 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,600 I, I, I want to come to Pete Hegseth, who I've been, it's 491 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,880 been quite eye opening going into the Pentagon and watching 492 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:54,360 him. But, but just first, Donald 493 00:25:54,360 --> 00:26:00,680 Trump, he has threatened civilization, Eurasia, basically 494 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,520 he is making what being widely described as genocidal threats. 495 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,000 He does obviously keep stepping back from the brink. 496 00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:09,200 What do you think he's trying to achieve with that? 497 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,600 Do you think there is a risk that at some point he goes ahead 498 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,920 with any of those threats? No, I don't. 499 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,760 Donald Trump, you know, his negotiating strategy is actually 500 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,600 pretty transparent and he's used it, you know, more more than 501 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,600 once. And he wants people to think 502 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,200 that he's crazy, that he can do anything, that he's 503 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,760 unpredictable and that you don't want to overstep with him. 504 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,320 So I was reading a report. I, I don't remember where this 505 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,160 was the other day that he actually deliberately, if you 506 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,400 remember in the, one of the posts, I think it was on Easter, 507 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,400 he said, praise be to Allah, you know, and he and people were 508 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,400 asking him on his team, like, what was that? 509 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,640 And he said, I just want them to think I'm crazy, you know, I 510 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,280 want them to think that I'm just unpredictable. 511 00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:57,320 So that's his strategy. It's been his strategy. 512 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,280 I mean, you've seen him do this with Greenland. 513 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,400 You've seen him make these bombastic statements. 514 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,720 You know, with the Europeans, it doesn't necessarily mean that 515 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,440 that was going to happen. Yeah, although eventually people 516 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,240 start to see, and Iran perhaps are seeing that now that maybe 517 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,480 you're not the madman that you're trying to present 518 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,120 yourself at and you're not willing to do it. 519 00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:17,640 And that changes how they behave. 520 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,080 And, you know, Speaking of interesting characters in the 521 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,760 American administration, I've, I've, I've spent many years 522 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,080 covering British politicians and I've never seen anything quite 523 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:28,480 like what I'm seeing in the Pentagon. 524 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,360 I've I've been in for a few of the media briefings. 525 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,520 Don't think we'd ever get a question because it's very clear 526 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,040 that they've chosen who they're gonna ask. 527 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,520 But Pete Hegseth is like nobody I've ever seen. 528 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,840 He's so, first of all, the violent kind of language. 529 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:47,200 Secondly, his anger at the media even more than Donald Trump. 530 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,760 As soon as you walk into the room, you can see he's kind of 531 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,800 reeling with it, asking Americans to get down on bended 532 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,800 knee and pray. Of course, this week. 533 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:57,760 Was it this week or last week? I've lost track. 534 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,120 Quoting Pulp Fiction rather than the actual Bible. 535 00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:03,720 I mean, just as someone who has spent time in that department, 536 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,200 what do you make of him and the way he's behaving through this? 537 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,960 I mean, you know, he he's someone, first of all, who never 538 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,240 would have gotten this position had it not been for Trump. 539 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,640 I mean, he owes his job to Donald Trump. 540 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,960 And that's why you see him always going above and beyond 541 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,200 and defending the president and whatever the president wants. 542 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,560 You know, Pete Hegseth is all for it, but he also represents a 543 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,360 kind of, you see this across, you know, the US right now, 544 00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:31,960 especially in the Republican Party and young men and that 545 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,000 sort of real testosterone driven, you know, lust for 546 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:41,920 violence, you know, wanting to show off American hard American 547 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:47,440 power, disdain for women in the military and and female combat 548 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:53,160 officers, putting that Christian nationalist sort of, you know, 549 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:58,480 flavor into into the Pentagon, which by the way, talking to to 550 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,440 people who have, who are in the military is really driving 551 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,920 morale down. People are calling into hotlines 552 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,440 and complaining that their commanders are using this 553 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,160 Christian nationalist language and they're really uncomfortable 554 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:11,840 about it. They're, you know, we're not 555 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,640 here to fight some religious war like what is happening. 556 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,480 So, so there's a lot of damage being done. 557 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:22,560 He also shuttered an office and and efforts that were meant to 558 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,880 lower the chances of civilian harm in warfare. 559 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,240 This was an initiative that started under the Biden 560 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,480 administration, and that's no longer in play. 561 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,600 So he is doing a lot of damage to the Pentagon, to morale, to 562 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,840 infrastructure. How much of that is reversible? 563 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,320 I think, you know, the longer it goes, the the more difficult 564 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,640 it'll be to rebuild. And obviously with the press 565 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,240 score, as you mentioned, it's a completely different cast of 566 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,880 characters in there. So yes, it is a lot of damage 567 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:52,480 and it is really difficult to watch. 568 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,560 Jasmine, just want to get back to the to the weird nature of 569 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,040 this war. I mean, taking into account 570 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,080 everything you just said earlier, if it's true that the 571 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,520 best thing that we can hope for is some kind of long lasting 572 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,760 choose between the IRGC, who seem to be running the show, and 573 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,120 the Trump administration with a moratorium on uranium enrichment 574 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,160 and a reduction in their missile capability and the Strait either 575 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:18,920 being totally or partially opened. 576 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,400 It fundamentally doesn't deal with the issue that led to the 577 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,360 war in the 1st place, which is that you have an aggressive 578 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,160 regime in the heart of the Middle East that is trying to 579 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,200 threaten Israel with annihilation. 580 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,080 And I can't imagine the IRGC changing its tune on that. 581 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,200 And given the fact that trust has been totally depleted by 582 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:44,120 both sides and their internal divisions in both sides to some 583 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,920 extent, more on the Iranian side, perhaps the American side, 584 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,760 and the Israelis are forever sitting on the sidelines 585 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,520 wondering whether this is a viable solution to their 586 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,120 problem. I mean, we're talking about a 587 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,520 permanent crisis, aren't we? Yeah. 588 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,280 I mean, a lot of things have changed over the last month and 589 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:07,840 1/2 or so in the sense that there were a lot of issues that 590 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,080 were dormant, I guess you would say, right? 591 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,280 And, you know, now everything is out in the open and we have to 592 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,360 actually start addressing them. One thing you mentioned was 593 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,600 Iran's aggression against Israel. 594 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,960 I would also argue that it went the other way as well, that 595 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,280 Israel's aggression against Iran and against its neighbors, 596 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,400 including in Lebanon as you see it now in Syria, you know, you 597 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,960 have a very extremist expansionist regime in Iran. 598 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,040 You also have an aggressive extremist expansionist regime, 599 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,200 you know, government or regime as whatever you want to call it 600 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,880 in Israel. And and then you have the 601 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,240 countries in the region sort of stuck between these two powers. 602 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,600 And up until now it had been this very uncomfortable but 603 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,400 mostly quiet balance between these two, the Iran and Israel, 604 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,520 where, you know, they would go in and assassinate a leader here 605 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,480 and there. You know, in Syria, they 606 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,560 assassinated a Smite Hanaya in Iran, Iran would would strike 607 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,520 back in the 12 day war. It was some tit for tat. 608 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,120 But now it's all out in the open and there's this race to 609 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,840 dominate the region and to make sure that you come out of this 610 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,480 war on top. The Gulf countries play a huge 611 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,520 role in this because they are, they absolutely do not want to 612 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,320 be left with an Iranian regime that is capable of doing this 613 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,760 again when it wants. So even though they had tried 614 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,760 really hard to prevent this war from happening, they had all 615 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,720 made their peace with Iran. They came to the conclusion, 616 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,600 rightly so. When I speak to people in the 617 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,760 Gulf, they said, listen, we are stuck with them. 618 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,880 We live in the same region. We can't afford to be at war 619 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,120 with them. So you saw the Saudi Iran 620 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,360 detente, you saw the UAE starting to build relationships 621 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,320 and go into trade agreements and maritime agreements with Iran. 622 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,560 And you saw this kind of, you know, they chose to go the 623 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,880 diplomatic route and it was working. 624 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,400 And now, now that the war has started and given Iran's 625 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:11,560 absolutely just insane response against the Gulf countries, the 626 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,320 Gulf countries are now saying, OK, yes, we still live with you. 627 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,120 That hasn't changed. But we're going to need some 628 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,840 kind of security guarantee that this doesn't happen again. 629 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,840 And what I'm even more worried about is that there may be 630 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:29,000 certain schools of thought within the Gulf right now that 631 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,400 that are so against the idea of Iran coming out of this dominant 632 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,120 that they may start supporting crazy scenarios that the 633 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,360 Israelis are pushing for, like fomenting civil war inside Iran 634 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:46,320 to keep that country weak. So I worry a lot about the next 635 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:51,000 few months and how it will go. And yeah, I mean, I, I wish I 636 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,040 had something more optimistic to say about that. 637 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,680 The only thing I hold on to really is that both Iran and the 638 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,080 US understand that continued conflict is not in their 639 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,520 interest and they will try to wrap it up in some way. 640 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,840 They just have to find a way where they can both save face 641 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,840 and claim some sort of victory. I mean, the overall impression I 642 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,080 got when I was in Israel until a couple of weeks ago was that 643 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:17,120 they really don't like the idea of unfinished business in Iran. 644 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,199 That's the government and the public and the the business is 645 00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:22,239 very much unfinished at the moment. 646 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,040 Harmony Junior has taken over supposedly from Harmony Senior, 647 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,360 but the same people are in not just in charge, but stronger. 648 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,000 Certainly the hardline is. And just on that point, I wonder 649 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,440 what you've heard and what you make of these supposed divisions 650 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,560 between the civilian leadership, the foreign minister, Rakshi 651 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,000 Peseshkian, the president, the speaker of of the parliament, 652 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,560 Khalibab. And then you've got the IRGC now 653 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,400 run supposedly by Ahmed Wahidi, who took took over from the pre 654 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,120 head of the IRGC who was killed by the Americans on, you know, 655 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:55,520 in the first few days of the war. 656 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,000 Have you heard about similar splits? 657 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,240 And if these splits exist, does that give the Americans an 658 00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:04,520 opportunity, or does it shut an opportunity down? 659 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,560 To a certain extent, those splits have always been there. 660 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:13,320 There's always been a tension between some of the more open 661 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:18,200 leadership in politically in, in Iran and, and the more hardline 662 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,600 IRGC. You know, ironically, that 663 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,320 before this war started, Iran was in, you know, the, the 664 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:26,800 regime was in a very tough place. 665 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:28,480 It was in a tough place economically. 666 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,760 It was really struggling. And you had these voices that 667 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,680 were arguing for, you know, more openness and, and so on. 668 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,360 A lot of these people have been killed now. 669 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,880 And So what you are left with is the more hardline voices and 670 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,280 you're going to see that struggle play out. 671 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,760 But I keep coming back to the fact that it is not in Iran's 672 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,400 interest to continue being at war. 673 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,840 At some point it will become a real burden on it economically. 674 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,120 It will still be able to continue, but it's not in its 675 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,080 interest. It wants to, you know, end this, 676 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,960 start rebuilding, bringing in investment, start, you know, 677 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:07,960 looking at reconstruction and so on. 678 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:13,400 So even, you know, even though we'll see these tensions play 679 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,440 out, I think it doesn't change the overall picture, which is 680 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,760 that, you know, Iran and the US are trying to come to an 681 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,600 agreement. Israel is going to be the wild 682 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,160 card in the background trying to prevent a diplomatic solution 683 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,560 because Israel's interest is weak states all around it. 684 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,560 You're going to have the Gulf states watching and wondering 685 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,960 what's going to happen and trying to influence the outcome. 686 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,240 So they're not the losers in all of this. 687 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,440 And then you have Hezbollah, Lebanon and Israel that's also 688 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,600 in the background. That could start flaring up once 689 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,080 the Lebanese Armed Forces realize that the support that 690 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,000 they need in order to be able to stand up and disarm Hezbollah is 691 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,440 not necessarily support that the US and Israel are going to be 692 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,720 willing to provide. So that's always a big question 693 00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:02,240 mark in the background there to watch out for as well. 694 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,560 All of this, all of this diplomacy and all of the 695 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,560 diplomacy that we've had in the past has been focused on trying 696 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:13,600 to stop Iran posing a threat, whether it be to Israel or, you 697 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,360 know, longer term, to the US. It's been all about trying to 698 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,360 limit its ability to get a nuclear weapon. 699 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:23,360 The same is true of the JCPOA, the Obama deal in 2015, and the 700 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,880 focus of what they will negotiate here if they actually 701 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,000 get into the room. None of it deals with the point 702 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,760 you've been talking about, which is that a country of 90 million 703 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,640 people has been ruled by a government, government that has 704 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:40,520 been hardline murderous, killed at least thousands of 705 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,240 protesters, maybe 10s of thousands earlier this year, is 706 00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:46,680 executing people for being part of those protests. 707 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:52,840 Is there anything that can be actually done to help free Iran, 708 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,960 to help actually lead to regime change And, and what were the 709 00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,400 views in government when you were here, you know, towards 710 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,480 that? And I was remiss not to mention 711 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,720 earlier when I said the Gulf wants to make sure they're not 712 00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:07,400 the losers coming out of this. Really, the Iranian people are 713 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:09,640 the biggest losers coming out of this, right? 714 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,920 Because they were told, you know, they were living under 715 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,160 this brutal repression for so many years. 716 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,120 They, you know, were, were protesting. 717 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,760 And we saw some of the largest protests ever before this war 718 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,800 started. You know, people mowed down and 719 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,760 then told to rise up by the American president and told 720 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,360 that, you know, help was on the way. 721 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,480 And now the the government is, you know, the US government is 722 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,840 negotiating with the same regime that was mowing down those 723 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,520 protesters. So the Iranian people are in a 724 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,320 really, really tough position. I will just say that from my 725 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,280 experience in government, President Obama, I mean, the 726 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,840 Israelis were always trying to get us to go to war with Iran, 727 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:48,280 right? This is not something new. 728 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,920 I think it was Senator Chris Van Holland that said Trump was just 729 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,360 the only person stupid enough to actually do it. 730 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,400 But this isn't something new. Netanyahu's been trying to do 731 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,120 this for 40 years, as he said himself. 732 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:09,040 But because there were also protests in 2009 when when under 733 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,320 Obama, the Green Revolution and this this, the sense was at the 734 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:17,200 time was that this was an internal issue that, you know, 735 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,160 you can agree or disagree with it, of course. 736 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,160 But President Obama said, you know, this is an Iranian issue. 737 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,720 And to the extent that the US tries to get involved, it would 738 00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:29,600 probably be detrimental to the Iranians, to the Iranian people 739 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,560 to have US support or US interference. 740 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,960 Because then the regime would hold that up as a conspiracy and 741 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,000 to say, look what the Americans are, they're trying to do this 742 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,520 and that and it would cause a rally around the flag effect. 743 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,800 Regime change. When has it worked? 744 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,640 You know, I was in Iraq in 2003 on the eve of the invasion. 745 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,640 I was a translator for the first few weeks of the, of the war. 746 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,400 And then years later, I was at the Pentagon working on the 747 00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:02,080 issues that that were a result of that war, ISIS, Syrian civil 748 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,640 war, Syrian refugee crisis into Europe. 749 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:09,600 I mean the the spillover effects and the ripple effects of forced 750 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,760 regime change. Are terrible and they affect 751 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:17,400 everyone, so I don't have the answer for how do you help the 752 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,880 Iranian people. I just know that trying to go in 753 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:27,840 and forcibly breakdown a system that is going to end up being 754 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,200 worse for not just Iranians but for everyone around them because 755 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,400 of the violence that that's going to unleash, it's probably 756 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,920 not the answer. Just mean final quick question 757 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:38,720 for me. I mean, from what you know, of 758 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,200 the Pentagon and how it works, do you think that they're now 759 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:46,000 getting ready for Trump's next, you know, adventure on his 760 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:50,160 geopolitical tour, whether it's Cuba or Greenland or who knows 761 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,680 what or, you know, are they exhausted by this because it 762 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,920 hasn't gone according to plan? And they're doing everything 763 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,920 they possibly can to persuade their boss, Pete Hexeth, and his 764 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,560 boss, Donald Trump, to stay clear of any other foreign 765 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,360 adventures. This is a this is an interesting 766 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:10,400 one because I mean, there are two scenarios here. 1 is that 767 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:15,000 Trump comes out of this feeling like he needs to to fix his 768 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,200 reputation, but you know, he has 2 1/2 years left in office. 769 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:22,120 He wants to leave behind a legacy of strength and he will 770 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,200 not want this to be it. And so he will look for a quick 771 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,880 win somewhere else and have that be the last thing that people 772 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,400 remember. The other scenario, of course, 773 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,440 one would hope is that he understands that this kind of 774 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,040 military heavy diplomacy doesn't work. 775 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,680 And maybe try to go back to doing conflict resolution, 776 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:46,520 trying to do more along, you know, Israel and and Gaza and 777 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,800 the West Bank and trying to prevent Israeli annexation of 778 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:54,080 the West Bank, trying to build up the the 20 point peace plan 779 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:58,400 in Gaza, you know, and focusing on more things that will leave a 780 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,600 more positive legacy. But, you know, with this 781 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:06,320 administration, you just never know in terms of voices, you 782 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:07,960 know, quote, UN quote, adults in the room. 783 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,760 We're always talking about that. I think you'll see probably Vice 784 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,920 President Vance, Marco Rubio, certainly General Kane, the 785 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,560 chairman of the Joint Chiefs, who was always saying this was a 786 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:23,160 bad idea, trying to get back to the more, you know, diplomacy 787 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,400 first rather than military action first, and hopefully 788 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,240 drowning out the influence of Pete Hagseth and others who 789 00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:33,160 might be more hawkish. I mean, you know, she gave a 790 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,800 really interesting and rather depressing account of the 791 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,800 mechanics at work in the Pentagon, which she knows very 792 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:40,800 well because she used to work there. 793 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,720 And of course, the White House, which you cover every day. 794 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,560 I mean, I have to say, looking at the kind of military buildup, 795 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,000 looking at the amount of face that's at stake here for both 796 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,840 sides, the internal divisions within Iran, the the, the fact 797 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,400 that, yes, they want peace and they want some kind of off ramp. 798 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,400 I just don't see them finding it right now. 799 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,280 And so this thing could drag on well into the summer, which 800 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:04,760 would really mess things up, wouldn't it? 801 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,840 Well, I think the difficulty for Donald Trump is he keeps making 802 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:10,920 threats that he clearly doesn't want to see through. 803 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:15,640 He keeps moving his timetables, we know not necessarily to take 804 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:17,800 too much from the number of days, he said. 805 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:22,240 But ultimately, he wants to find an off ramp and as you say, it's 806 00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:24,920 very difficult to do that. I saw him walking into a 807 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,720 building the other day and he was clutching his massive brick 808 00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:29,760 of a mobile phone of a smartphone. 809 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,760 And I just thought, why can't you just get rid of that for a 810 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,640 bit like a, you know, 16 year old kid at a British school. 811 00:43:36,240 --> 00:43:40,120 Just get rid of the phone and, and clutch that, you know, for 812 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,120 iron and spend more time on the golf course. 813 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,280 This phone is really messing things up. 814 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,560 He does spend quite a lot of time on the golf course still. 815 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,360 All right, that's it from us, me Matt Fry in London. 816 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,600 And me, Anushka Astana in Washington, DC, See you next 817 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:53,880 week.