1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,880 I've spent so many Saturday nights at the protests in Tel 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:06,000 Aviv in solidarity with the hostages, and so many of them 3 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,720 direct their appeals not to Netanyahu, but to President 4 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:11,040 Trump. They're like going over his 5 00:00:11,040 --> 00:00:12,440 head. They're like, I want to speak to 6 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:14,240 the head teacher in this situation. 7 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,800 Basically, Sir, can you sort this mess out? 8 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,600 Really interested in this split within the administration 9 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,680 between the people who are kind of Israel 1st and those who 10 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,320 America first. In the end, it almost doesn't 11 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,000 matter because Donald Trump doesn't listen to anyone. 12 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:30,240 You know, it's, it's hard to get into the mind of President Trump 13 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,200 is even harder, I would say, to get into the mind of a Prime 14 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:40,680 Minister Netanyahu. Hi, I'm Anushka Astana, welcome 15 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,240 to Trump World. You will notice that I am not 16 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,720 joined by Matt this week. He is having a well deserved 17 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,240 break, although I would love to chat to him about the crazy 18 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,160 amount of stuff that has once again happened this week in 19 00:00:53,160 --> 00:00:55,600 Trump World. It is, of course, the 2nd 20 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,880 anniversary of the October 7th Hamas attacks. 21 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,320 And I want to talk about Israel, Gaza, because it's feeling 22 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:04,319 extremely positive at the moment. 23 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,400 At least the possibility of a first stage deal, hostages 24 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:13,760 perhaps being released and you know, detainees in Israel also 25 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,680 being released. They're being held without trial 26 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,960 at the moment. Let's look at all of this. 27 00:01:19,960 --> 00:01:23,480 Let's see where we are. Both sides seem to have said to 28 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:25,600 Donald Trump's 20 point peace plan. 29 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,200 Yes. But the president really wants 30 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,680 to seize on the yes and wants to run with that. 31 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,560 And for the first time in all of this, he is really exerting 32 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:39,200 pressure on Benjamin Netanyahu. The perfect person to talk to 33 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,480 about all of this is our foreign affairs correspondent, Sukunda 34 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,000 Kamani. He has travelled to Israel a 35 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,720 dozen times since October the 7th. 36 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:51,440 He spent a lot of time reporting from the West Bank and he even 37 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,920 was able to go into Gaza at the beginning of all of this with 38 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,480 the IDF. He has a perspective on the 39 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,160 region that goes very far and very deep. 40 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,600 And I want to talk to him about that relationship with the US, 41 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,840 about how important it is and about whether Donald Trump is 42 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,640 the man who is finally going to get some progress on all of 43 00:02:11,640 --> 00:02:16,120 this. Welcome Secunder to the podcast. 44 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,160 So much has happened in the last two years. 45 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:21,760 I just wonder if I could start by asking you to almost just 46 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,280 take us back, remind us where we are right now. 47 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,200 You know, starting with October the 7th itself. 48 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,880 Do you remember where you were when you found out about it and 49 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,720 just what it meant to Israel and the world? 50 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:37,720 Yeah, well, good to be with you, Anushka. 51 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,800 And as, as you say, it's been a horrific 2 years. 52 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,840 Let's see how things end and where we are right now. 53 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:50,640 A great deal of optimism after so much horror going back to to 54 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,640 October the 7th. You know, I was here in London 55 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,760 and received a message early morning on my phone from our 56 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,920 local colleague in Gaza saying something, something massive, 57 00:03:01,920 --> 00:03:04,440 something very worrying is just happening. 58 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,720 We immediately realised as we saw the images coming in on, on 59 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,960 our phones, on social media, that this was something on a 60 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,400 scale that has we had never seen before, that Israel had never 61 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:19,000 seen before, that the conflict had never seen before, certainly 62 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:23,240 in, in terms of Israel being targeted by, by, by Palestinian 63 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,080 militants. And so as soon as possible, we 64 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:31,520 got on a flight to Israel and, and within, you know, less than 65 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,840 24 hours, we were there on the ground reporting on Hamas 66 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:41,360 attack, um, the, the civilians, 800 or so who were killed, Uh, 67 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,960 particularly around, um, in, in the Kabut scene, the little 68 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,800 communities right on the border with Gaza and at the music 69 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:51,040 festival. Um, and at that time, you know, 70 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,480 I remember so many heartbreaking stories from, from Israelis 71 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,640 there also getting a sense really of the, of the rage 72 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:03,400 within Israel that we would see build and build and build and 73 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,920 manifest in itself in the, in the brutal assault that, that 74 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:12,040 Israel has carried out in, in Gaza with more than 65,067 75 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,280 thousand, I, I believe now Palestinians killed in Gaza, I 76 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,760 don't think anyone expected things to go as far as they've 77 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,839 gone. And and you know, beyond Israel, 78 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,360 Palestine, there's been huge repercussions right across the 79 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,320 Middle East. You look at the defeat 80 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,600 effectively of Hezbollah in Lebanon, long seen as, you know, 81 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:34,720 a massive threat by the Israelis. 82 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:40,240 You look at the direct conflict between Israel and and Iran. 83 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,680 You know, a kind of shadow war had played out for many years 84 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:45,960 between those two sides. We ended up seeing ballistic 85 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,280 missiles being traded between them. 86 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:52,480 We really saw the destruction of Iran's so-called axis of 87 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,200 resistance by Israel at the same time that Israel has achieved 88 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,280 this massive military dominance within the region. 89 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,880 At the same time, you've seen it's international standing 90 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,240 absolutely decimated. I mean, it's incredible to think 91 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,680 that, you know, the Prime Minister serving Prime Minister 92 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,080 of Israel, the the the former defence minister, you have 93 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:18,240 gallant they are indicted by the International Criminal Court on 94 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,720 war crimes. You have Aun Commission of 95 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:25,120 inquiry that has described what's happening in Gaza as as a 96 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,800 genocide. You know, Israel disputes that. 97 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,840 But, but really you can see from certainly European countries, 98 00:05:31,840 --> 00:05:33,920 countries that have been traditional supporters of of 99 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:38,680 Israel, there's a a great deal of of anger and frustration 100 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,000 directed particularly from, from from public opinion also at 101 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,320 governmental level. Obviously, as we speak, the 102 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:48,240 talks are taking place in Egypt. It's feeling quite positive for 103 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,440 certainly the first stage of this. 104 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,040 And I want to go through quite a lot of what you've said and try 105 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,240 and unpack some of it. You know, that point about how 106 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,880 isolated Israel is has really struck me recently. 107 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,440 The thing that really struck me was when Benjamin Netanyahu flew 108 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,960 from Israel to New York in the US to speak at the UN General 109 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,600 Assembly, he actually had to avoid French and Spanish 110 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:15,160 airspace because of that indictment by the International 111 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,520 Criminal Court. I thought it was a real symbol 112 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:19,200 of how isolated Israel has become. 113 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,440 Let's talk about this and I want to really focus in on the US 114 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,160 Israel relationship, the importance of it and the extent 115 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,720 to which Donald Trump himself is playing an important role in 116 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,320 this. To the negotiations in in Egypt, 117 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,080 the mood amongst everyone right now seems to be optimistic, 118 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:39,360 certainly the most optimistic that we've seen in the last in 119 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,160 the last two years. There seems to be real concerted 120 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,600 pressure from President Trump. He's the one who's really 121 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,040 driving this. And we've seen that throughout 122 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,960 the conflict that President Trump in particular, unlike 123 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,920 Biden, has the ability to turn the screws on, on all sides, but 124 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,880 particularly on on the Israelis, because that was something that 125 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,400 was missing under the the previous administration, I think 126 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,200 and and push forward deals. We saw that when President Trump 127 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:07,200 was assuming office in, in, in, in in January and we had the 128 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:09,880 first ceasefire. So right now negotiations are 129 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,680 taking place in direct negotiations between the 130 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,280 Israelis and and Hamas in Egypt, brokered by the Egyptians and 131 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,160 categories. We've got Steve Witkoff, US, the 132 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,120 President Trump special envoy, Jared Kushner, Trump's 133 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,280 son-in-law. They've flown in Ron Derma, 134 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,120 who's kind of Netanyahu's right hand man He's there. 135 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,600 These are all promising signs because they say that that they 136 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,120 tell us that the negotiations are making progress. 137 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,240 Wickoff is that I think explicitly said that he he was 138 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,320 going to only arrive when, when and if progress was being made. 139 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,000 At this stage. Right now, Hamas say that 140 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:48,440 they've given a list of prisoners, detainees who they 141 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,040 want to be released in exchange for the Israeli hostages. 142 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,920 You know, there's talk that perhaps something could be 143 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:57,720 agreed within the next couple of days. 144 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,160 Let's wait and see. There are also, you know, major 145 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,640 sticking points that that frankly, I'm not clear how we're 146 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,440 going to be resolved. For example, you know, Hamas 147 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,560 still wants a full Israeli, Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in 148 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,480 exchange for releasing the hostages. 149 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,240 Israel still wants Hamas to, to completely disarm itself. 150 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,000 Hamas does not want to to, to do that. 151 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,880 Now, I think it's quite possible that some of those issues are 152 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,840 going to be somewhat kicked into the longer grass and you're 153 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,720 going to, we're seeing a kind of first stage of an agreement 154 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,480 being reached in which Israel commits to some kind of 155 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,480 withdrawal in exchange for the hostages. 156 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:43,200 And and then those even thornier issues around governance in 157 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:48,000 Gaza, Hamas's future, a complete Israeli withdrawal are still, 158 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,640 are still, are still discussed. Hopefully whilst there's no, 159 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,200 there's an end to, to the bombing right now, you know, 160 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,520 there's still a degree of, of Israeli attacks going on, but 161 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,720 nothing like what we've seen in, in the past where it's routine 162 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,400 to see, you know, dozens, 5060, a hundred Palestinians in excess 163 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,840 of that of their times killed on a, on a, on a daily basis. 164 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,600 I just want to focus in on why Donald Trump is a person who's 165 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,480 able to do this. The relationship between America 166 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,880 and Israel, a relationship that has, you know, existed and been 167 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,280 unbelievably closed for decades. As Israel has become more 168 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:27,760 isolated, that bipartisan relationship has not weakened, 169 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,040 although Donald Trump is for the first time exerting pressure 170 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:33,240 onto Israel. I mean, this goes right back. 171 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,680 And we don't have to go all the way back in this conversation, 172 00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:40,640 but, you know, to President Truman, you know, actually being 173 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,920 the first, I think, leader in the world to recognise the state 174 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:48,400 of Israel. And then after the 1967 war, 175 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,280 America particularly associating itself with Israel, seeing 176 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:56,520 Israel as its absolute key ally in in that region. 177 00:09:56,680 --> 00:09:59,480 Why? Why are these two countries as 178 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,240 close as they are? I mean, I'm sorry to say to our 179 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,400 viewers and listeners in the UK that while I do get the 180 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,600 impression since being here in the US, that they, the 181 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,080 Americans, do consider U.S. special, that there is no other 182 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,600 special relationship that tops Israel for Americans. 183 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:17,640 Why do you think that is? Yeah, You know, I was just 184 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:21,160 looking at some data today and it's going it was saying that 185 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:26,680 that since World War 2, I think there's been in excess of the 186 00:10:26,680 --> 00:10:29,040 equivalent contemporary equivalent of around $300 187 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:34,680 billion of aid supplied by by America to Israel. 188 00:10:34,680 --> 00:10:39,360 So it's been a huge, a huge support for for Israel continues 189 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,800 to be a huge support. You know, there's a guarantee of 190 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,320 around $3 billion of military aid that is supplied every year. 191 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:51,600 America wields huge political, cultural and, you know, economic 192 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,120 influence over over as well as its largest trading partner. 193 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,640 As well as you say, the relationship goes back to the 194 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,600 founding of Israel the the creation of it in 1948. 195 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,440 President Truman was actually somewhat his administration was 196 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,840 somewhat split over whether to recognise Israel or not. 197 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,960 He he went ahead with it. But but you know, particularly 198 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:17,160 during the Cold War, you saw the the Americans ally themselves 199 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,480 with the Israelis on the on the other side, the Palestinians, 200 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,600 Yasser Arafat, the PLO, They were, they were left wing 201 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,040 movements. They were, you know, they were 202 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,600 not the, the Hamas of today, which are a religious 203 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:31,160 organization. They were, they were 204 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,360 secularists. They were part of the kind of 205 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:38,160 the left wing, anti colonial post colonial movements all 206 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,160 around the world. And so, you know, the Americans, 207 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,840 which were, you know, opposed to the the Soviet Union, saw their 208 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:50,200 natural ally as as the Israelis. You've also seen American 209 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,240 administrations, for example, Clinton playing key roles in 210 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,080 trying to broker some kind of some kind of peace. 211 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,880 But you, you, you've seen, you know, consistent accusations 212 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:02,680 and, and feelings from the Palestinian side that the 213 00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:06,080 Americans are, are, yes, they're, they're mediating and 214 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:10,000 they're negotiating, but they're always favouring the favouring 215 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:14,640 the, the, the, the Israeli side. I mean, 11 American diplomat I 216 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,800 was speaking to not long after October the 7th, You know, it 217 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,200 gave me something of an insight into the personal connections 218 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,320 that some, that some Americans, I think feel towards Israel, 219 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,600 where he said, you know, I, I'm a Zionist in the same way that 220 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:34,200 President Biden is a Zionist in that I don't believe Europe can 221 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,520 be trusted with the Jews given their history. 222 00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:39,360 And so they need their own homeland. 223 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,800 And that, that was to me was very interesting because that's 224 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:46,200 not the kind of language I'd ever really heard expressed by, 225 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:50,560 by politicians in, in, in, in Europe, even those who are 226 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,840 supportive of, of Israel and you know, who, who want to ensure 227 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,560 Israel's security as, as well as, you know, a part of the 228 00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:00,320 statehood for the, for the Palestinians. 229 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:02,480 So that was that was interesting to me. 230 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:04,840 And, and perhaps we can discuss it later, but there's also been, 231 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:09,120 you know, a very strong Christian Zionist movement in, 232 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,520 in the United States. And that has also been certainly 233 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,640 for the, the Republican Party, a key factor, I think in their, in 234 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:21,600 their support for, for Israel. Now what we're seeing, I think 235 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:26,400 is, is, is perhaps some levels of declining support in, in 236 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,600 America for, for, for, for Israel. 237 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,440 You know, 1 Israeli official I was speaking to last year who's 238 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:35,920 very into, had a big presence on social media. 239 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,400 He said, you know, we see what's happening. 240 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,000 We see the protests in, in universities like Colombia. 241 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,880 And we realize that perhaps there's, there's a generational 242 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,240 shift and, and that this level of support that Israel has 243 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,400 traditionally received from America is not always going to 244 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:52,960 last initially. I mean, you're there in DC and I 245 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,320 wanted to ask you, I mean, how do you see all these competing 246 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,800 influences on President Trump when when it comes to Israel 247 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:02,920 policy on on the one hand, there's been, you know, this 248 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,400 very traditionally strong pro Israel lobby within American 249 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,160 politics. On the flip side, you know, he's 250 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,800 got strong ties in this good relationship with the Qataris, 251 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,640 with the Saudis. He wants to be a peacemaker. 252 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,280 What what's driving President Trump because it's something, 253 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,400 you know, that I here in London or when I'm in the Middle East 254 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,120 have, have, have always wandered and have never really been able 255 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,920 to, to, to fathom. Well, what's driving President 256 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:28,840 Trump is his own desires for what he wants. 257 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,000 I said to a former negotiator who's worked for literally 258 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,400 decades on Middle East negotiations within Republican 259 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,040 and Democratic administrations about this. 260 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,440 And I said, really interested in this split within the 261 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,520 administration between the people who are kind of Israel 262 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:45,400 1st and those who are America First. 263 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,440 And his argument was that in the end, almost doesn't matter 264 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:50,840 because Donald Trump doesn't listen to anyone. 265 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,520 You know, it doesn't kind of really matter what they're 266 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,920 saying to him because it's just what his desire is. 267 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,280 And clearly at the moment, and I don't mean to be facetious with 268 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,520 this, but I think he really, really wants a Nobel Peace 269 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,160 Prize. And this is the kind of ultimate 270 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,880 point at which he knows he has the power to get it. 271 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,680 And we'll come into why I think Donald Trump has this particular 272 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,360 power at the moment. But in terms of those divides, 273 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:17,040 you know, in 2019, Donald Trump said he was the most pro Israeli 274 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,720 president in history. And when we looked at the 275 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,440 formation of his team initially that it really speaks to that. 276 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,720 I mean, you talk about evangelical Christians. 277 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,720 Mike Huckabee, who is the ambassador for America to 278 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,200 Israel, is an evangelical Christian who I don't think can 279 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:33,720 even bring himself to say the words. 280 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,560 West Bank thinks that the West Bank is an area that by God's 281 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:42,200 will belongs to Jewish people and is a really, really key 282 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,360 player in all of this. You've also got Marco Rubio as 283 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,800 the Secretary of State who is really, you know, quite hawkish 284 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,800 when it comes to the Israel situation. 285 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,880 But we have a really interesting situation unfolding in the US 286 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,240 where even on the right there are now big divides in this, 287 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,840 including the rise of some anti-Semitism. 288 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:06,560 It feels like to me within that MAGA Make America Great movement 289 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,440 again, we have very kind of high profile figures like Tucker 290 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,360 Carlson who are now really, really critical about Israel. 291 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,080 There are a lot of conspiracy theories about the death of 292 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,160 Charlie Kirk that are doing the rounds that people are talking 293 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,160 about. The podcasts in which some of 294 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,280 these things are being discussed are the most listened to 295 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,560 podcasts sack even more listeners than we've got right 296 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,320 now here. And and that is happening on the 297 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,560 right. Meanwhile, we have an age divide 298 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:38,400 where younger people are much less sympathetic to Israel than 299 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,680 some older people, even within their own families, even within 300 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,040 the Jewish community. I spent, you know, a recent day 301 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:51,080 in New York with liberal Jewish communities who were really, 302 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,320 really unhappy about what was happening in Gaza and were 303 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,000 telling me about the difficult conversations they were actually 304 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:57,400 having with their parents back home. 305 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,480 If you look at the polling, you know, sentiment has shifted 306 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,360 that, you know, there's more sympathy towards Israel here 307 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,800 than there, it towards Israelis here than there is towards 308 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,359 Palestinians. But the gap has massively closed 309 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:13,680 and the sympathy has actually dropped below 50%, which it has, 310 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,160 I think in Gallup's polling done for the first time since they've 311 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,119 been doing that polling. So there is a shift and Donald 312 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,440 Trump will be aware of that. But but I just want to ask you 313 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,520 this, actually, Donald Trump's position that he's put himself 314 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,760 out as, as the most pro Israeli president has in many ways, I 315 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:32,280 think got us to where we are now. 316 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,080 On the one hand, as someone was saying to me, America hasn't 317 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,040 actually imposed a single cost or consequence on Israel 318 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,440 throughout all of this. And I think it's really 319 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,880 important to remember that now. And even now he's talking about 320 00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:48,760 giving Benjamin Netanyahu the green light to obliterate Hamas 321 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,760 if they don't agree to what he's putting forward. 322 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,760 But, but is there also an argument that in Israel, in 323 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,640 Israel, that relationship with the US is so important? 324 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,160 The relationship with the US president is so important. 325 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,160 And it's even more important now when there is that massive 326 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,880 isolation across the rest of the world and that has empowered 327 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:15,800 Donald Trump to be stronger when it comes to this and to put much 328 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:20,320 more pressure on Netanyahu, including, as we've seen, you 329 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,840 know, he he does lose his tempo. You saw in June, he said that 330 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,720 neither Iran nor Israel knew what the F they were doing. 331 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,760 Some people say that was more hot air than substantive. 332 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,160 I'm interested in your view on that. 333 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,240 But behind the scenes here, it looks like he's picked up the 334 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,360 phone to Netanyahu, who said there was nothing to celebrate 335 00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:39,720 when Hamas said they were open to agreeing to the beginning of 336 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,520 this and telling him to stop being so effing negative. 337 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,800 I mean, is he the one man in the world who can actually influence 338 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:47,440 Netanyahu? Yeah, I think you're. 339 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,920 You're absolutely right. I mean, I remember for example, 340 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,120 when when the Trump administration was coming into 341 00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:56,000 office in, in in January and special envoy Steve Witkoff was 342 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,960 going flying into to, to Israel to meet Prime Minister Netanyahu 343 00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:04,080 as part of negotiation to try and introduce a, a, a ceasefire. 344 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,400 Just as as Trump was going to be sworn in. 345 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,320 And he was he wanted to meet Netanyahu on on Saturday, the 346 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:14,400 Shabbat, the, the holy day for, for, for in Israel, for, for the 347 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,680 Jewish people when people don't wouldn't normally work. 348 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,480 And so Prime Minister Netanyahu said, I, you know, I can't meet 349 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:21,960 you during the day. And, and Witkoff is reported to 350 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,280 have said, look, I don't care. You're meeting me. 351 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,240 Trump wants me to meet you. You're meeting me. 352 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,440 And, and, and Netanyahu turned up and, and, and met him. 353 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,640 And I mean, the, the, I think the big difference is yes, 354 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,440 there's, there's of course the, the relationship between Israel 355 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,280 and, and, and America that's strong. 356 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:43,680 But you can see the difference in tone that Netanyahu talks 357 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,000 with President Trump with compared to how we talked with, 358 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:51,000 with, with Biden, you know, who's also president, Because I 359 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,680 think the difference is that when, when Biden was in power, 360 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,160 Netanyahu always had in the back of his mind, he's on his way out 361 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,440 and Trump is coming and Trump is going to give us everything we 362 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:01,120 want. He's going to. 363 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:05,600 And that was very much the tone within, within, within the 364 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,800 Israeli, within the Israeli, particularly right wing 365 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,640 political sphere where they thought, right, Trump is going 366 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,040 to come in because on, on the back, as, as you said, in his 367 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,480 first administration, he recognized Jerusalem as the, the 368 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,440 capital of Israel. He, you know, put forward a. 369 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,040 Deal of the century plan that would have recognised Israeli 370 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,480 control over lots of settlements, for example. 371 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,840 So they thought right. And and all the noises from 372 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,880 Trump on the campaign trail were also about about Biden is not 373 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,080 strong enough on in supporting Israel. 374 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:40,440 So I think Netanyahu was able to kind of bat off anything that 375 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,200 that Biden tried to throw at him. 376 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,320 Not that really Biden ever really tried to exert any 377 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,360 pressure. We saw kind of tough words at 378 00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:50,320 times from people like Blinken 0 National, I think. 379 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,800 Largely supplying billions pounds worth of weapons? 380 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,520 No, rather than any actual pressure? 381 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:56,640 Exactly. Exactly. 382 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,560 I mean, you saw words, right? You saw Blinken saying, OK, the 383 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,920 level of killing is is unacceptable, but what does that 384 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:04,840 mean if you're continuing to send all the weapons? 385 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,480 And so where's now, where does Netanyahu go? 386 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,720 He's got, he's got no one else other than Trump. 387 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,320 I mean, even he's, as we've discussed, like his European 388 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,280 allies have become increasingly frustrated. 389 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,680 They've, you know, they're backing the idea of A2 state 390 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,400 solution, something that he's become increasingly vocal and 391 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,840 in, in, in opposing. So that has a, a kind of a bit, 392 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,360 a big weight. You know, I think it's, it's 393 00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:31,720 interesting when you're in Israel, I've, you know, I've 394 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,200 spent so many Saturday nights at the, the, the protests in Tel 395 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,440 Aviv in solidarity with the, with the, with the hostages 396 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,160 where, you know, large numbers of people there are anti 397 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,360 government, fed up with the, with the Netanyahu government, 398 00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:47,520 frustrated by the fact that he hasn't signed a deal that would 399 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,240 bring the hostages back. And so many of them direct their 400 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,400 appeals not to Netanyahu, but to President Trump. 401 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:55,720 They're like going over his head. 402 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:57,960 They're like, I want to speak to the head teacher in this 403 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,480 situation. Basically, Sir, can you sort 404 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,480 this mess out? Because we want our hostages 405 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,600 back and, and, and we have no trust in our own leadership to 406 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,320 do it. You're the one who can do it. 407 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,880 And, you know, I saw videos of hostages once they've been 408 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,680 released, going and meeting President Trump in, in the Oval 409 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,160 Office and they're all praising him, lavishing him with these, 410 00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:22,760 you know, words of Sir, you're the only one who could do this. 411 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,920 As soon as you came to office, we knew that you would be able 412 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,840 to get things moving again. Everyone wants to say yes. 413 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,120 No one wants to say no. That includes Hamas, right? 414 00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:34,080 I mean, you look at the statement that Hamas gave that 415 00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:38,800 that in relation to this, this US plan, it was, it was a yes, 416 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,360 but but it was, it was framed in very positive language. 417 00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:47,640 And that allowed Trump, I think, to latch onto it with a as being 418 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,480 a yes, rather than focusing on the on the but, which is 419 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,160 definitely what Prime Minister Netanyahu was hoping to do, I 420 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:55,200 think. Yeah, it is it. 421 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,400 Is fascinating, 1 Middle East analyst said to me yesterday. 422 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,400 And I wasn't completely convinced by this, but 423 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,640 interested in your opinion that maybe Netanyahu doesn't mind 424 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,840 some of this pressure from Donald Trump because it gives 425 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,360 him something to play against those who are even further to 426 00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:13,400 the right of him in the cabinet. I mean, it was quite telling 427 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,520 that when he was here at the White House 4th visit this year, 428 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,560 you know, by far, I think the the person who's been here the 429 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,480 most since Trump's second presidency began. 430 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,080 And he had to do obviously the theatrics of what Donald Trump 431 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,560 likes, call the Qatari Prime Minister on the phone and 432 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:35,640 apologise for the strike in on Doha that immediately the those 433 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,360 to the right of him in the cabinet were criticising what he 434 00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:40,320 was doing, were really unhappy with it. 435 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,800 Do you think it almost gives Netanyahu a tiny bit of cover or 436 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,080 do you think he's probably quite frustrated with how far Donald 437 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:49,680 Trump has now gone? You know it's it's. 438 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,280 Hard to get into the mind of President Trump. 439 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,200 It's even harder, I would say, to get into the mind of of Prime 440 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,080 Minister Netanyahu and, and what exactly he wants. 441 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,160 He was always being described certainly to me as someone 442 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,640 who's, you know, a master strategist and someone who's not 443 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,840 necessarily really particularly ideologically driven, but just 444 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,200 someone who is interested in maintain maintaining power. 445 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,680 Certainly that and that's the critique you get from lots of 446 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,080 his opponents within Israel who say that he's prolonged the war 447 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,120 for his own political gain to keep his, his coalition with 448 00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:28,240 those far right Israeli, frankly, extremist parties keep 449 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,320 to keep that alive, to keep that going. 450 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,960 Also keeping an eye on the fact that he's got a, a trial 451 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,120 ongoing. And and, you know, more focus 452 00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:41,400 will inevitably fall on that if and when the war, the war ends. 453 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,360 And and certainly if there's new elections, it, it seems unlikely 454 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:49,120 at the moment that he would, he would, he would win those, those 455 00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:52,640 elections. I mean, going back to Trump as 456 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,040 well, though, I mean, what what's interesting to me is the 457 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,840 way he's kind of oscillated. So January, he pushes through a 458 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,760 ceasefire and the far right in Israel was shocked. 459 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,720 I mean, I remember like the settler leader, Daniella Weiss, 460 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,920 who's like the godmother, the settler movement saying, you 461 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,280 know, he came into power saying he was going to give Hamas hell. 462 00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:12,440 He's giving us hell. And they were, they were 463 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,800 rattled. Then just a few weeks later, you 464 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,400 have Trump saying, actually, there's going to be a plan 465 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,880 that's going to basically ethnic cleanse Gaza and take it over. 466 00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:26,720 And Netanyahu was sitting there next to him and you could see 467 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,560 Netanyahu thinking, wow. I mean, this is language that I 468 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,720 haven't used that this is this is very much the language that 469 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,920 my far right partners, Smotrich and and Ben Gavir are on board 470 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:38,600 with. And and then kind of the Israeli 471 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,480 government caught up with with Trump. 472 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,800 And you know, similarly, when, when Israel blocked off all 473 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,160 humanitarian aid for, for like 2 months, you know, the situation 474 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,800 that led to basically the declaration of famine that we, 475 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,200 that we've had in, in Gaza, who had not a like, not a squeak out 476 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,600 of Trump, right? There was no pressure really, it 477 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,640 seemed to to resume humanitarian aid. 478 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,480 By contrast, Biden did. I mean, that's one of the few 479 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,640 instances where I think he managed to exert some pressure 480 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,400 on on Netanyahu. And straight after October the 481 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,440 7th, they put a lot of pressure on them to to resume supplies 482 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,360 to, you know, inadequate levels of supplies, but some supplies 483 00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:22,640 back into Gaza after they had been initially completely, 484 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,200 completely cut off. But I think right now Netanyahu 485 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,040 definitely feels under pressure from Trump. 486 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,400 He feels like he has nowhere else to turn. 487 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,640 So whatever Trump dictates, he's going to have to go along with. 488 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:40,200 We saw him like being able to play, I think Trump, certainly 489 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:46,240 Biden in the past by coming up with new demands, framing 490 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:52,920 acceptances, framing de facto refusals of of agreements as 491 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,320 acceptances. Right now, there seems to be a 492 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,240 momentum that seems to be sweeping him away. 493 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,000 But there's still, there's still a long way to go. 494 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,080 And you know what, what, what, what I'm wondering is how long 495 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,480 will this conflict sustain President Trump's interest, 496 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:12,200 especially if we we only reach some kind of initial phase of a 497 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,200 deal where all the hostages are out. 498 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,560 You know, Hamas has a big fear that we give away all our 499 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,080 leverage. What's to stop Israel resuming 500 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,960 the war, The Qataris and the Saudis and Egyptians obviously 501 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,000 pressuring the Americans to give some kind of guarantees around 502 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:28,920 that. But I mean, how do you use it? 503 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,200 Do you think that that that Trump wants to see a lasting 504 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,120 peace? I mean, he, he doesn't, he's 505 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,800 been very critical of the Europeans for recognising 506 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,000 Palestine as a, as a state or, or is he focused on a more short 507 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:44,760 term win? It's really hard to know. 508 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,200 Because of the the isolation that you talk about and you 509 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,920 know, just to give another example of it, you talk about 510 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:51,680 the Ukraine. We talked a lot about the 511 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,920 Ukraine situation, about Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 512 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,360 You know, in the summer, Donald Trump was talking about Ukraine 513 00:27:59,360 --> 00:28:03,240 will have to cede land in order for that to end. 514 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,960 Then suddenly he was talking about the idea that Ukraine 515 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,120 could win back all the land that has already been taken. 516 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,560 I mean, these two positions are so far apart, it's hard to 517 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,240 understand how the same person could mutter those words. 518 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,960 And I think we have a similar situation here with Israel and 519 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,200 Gaza that you've just set out. I think the kind of the drive 520 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,720 for him, and you've mentioned it when you've mentioned the other 521 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,640 Arab countries that involved in these talks, is that, you know, 522 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,400 he wants to, in the long term, try to normalise relations 523 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,720 between Israel and Arab countries, in particular between 524 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:40,280 Israel and Saudi Arabia. In reality, that's quite a long 525 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,640 way away because of the butts in the yes, butts. 526 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,440 And I just want to come to those in a minute. 527 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,560 But, you know, just remember, this is a president who 528 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,920 travelled to Qatar, a country that he's been so critical of in 529 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:55,080 the past and had a absolutely lavish, you know, trip there. 530 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,040 You know, I was speaking to some of the Qataris, they were saying 531 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,760 the first time they've ever actually had an official visit 532 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,560 from AUS president, although US presidents have been there 533 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,400 before because of the American base that is there. 534 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,360 How furious or not he really was when Israel struck Doha. 535 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,360 He wants the world to think he's furious about that because he 536 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,440 sees those relationships with Arab countries as incredibly 537 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,080 important. And, you know, I wouldn't say on 538 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,280 the same level as his relationship with Israel, but 539 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:27,600 not so far off. And so for him, actually there 540 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,760 is a kind of personal desire in terms of the long term Middle 541 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,960 East policy for America, which has actually crossed through 542 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,560 Biden and back to Donald Trump, which is that normalisation if 543 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,440 they can get to it between those. 544 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,480 At one point he was talking about the idea of actually 545 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,640 having a security pact between those countries, but then he has 546 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,800 the issue with with especially with the Doha strike, those 547 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,080 countries are increasingly seeing Israel as a pariah in all 548 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,480 of this. Now, as much as he's pressuring 549 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,800 Israel, they're obviously pressuring Hamas. 550 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,920 As you say, the Qataris really pushing hard for written 551 00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:03,360 guarantees from Israel. Now, in terms of what happens, 552 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,520 you know, after the hostages were released, then Hamas have 553 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,960 no leverage over Israel. How do we then guarantee what 554 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:12,880 comes next? And let's just talk about that 555 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,840 because, you know, I sat and watched Benjamin Netanyahu at 556 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,360 the UN General Assembly. He couldn't have been clearer. 557 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,360 He does not want a Palestinian state. 558 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,480 He stood there and he said giving the Palestinians and he 559 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:29,200 said Palestinians, not Hamas, Palestinians, a state a mile 560 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,200 from Jerusalem is like giving Al Qaeda a state a mile from New 561 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:33,920 York. He then travelled to the White 562 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,480 House. He had a six hour meeting where 563 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:41,000 he insisted on a number of edits to the 20 point peace plan, some 564 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,680 of which are pretty significant around the timetable of the 565 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,800 Israeli withdrawal. He made changes that apparently 566 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,080 made some of the Arab officials furious. 567 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:53,960 He then stood up in the White House. 568 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,520 He agreed to this plan. He didn't take a single question 569 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,400 from journalists and and .19 of the plan talks about a path 570 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,680 towards Palestinian statehood. It has lots of caveats set, but 571 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,360 it talks about a plan to Palestinian statehood. 572 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,000 And then within no time at all, Benjamin Netanyahu makes a video 573 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,560 message saying there will not be a Palestinian state for the Arab 574 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,440 countries. When I talk to sources who are 575 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,280 working with the Arab countries, there will never be a 576 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,480 normalisation for them with Israel until it is very clear 577 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,520 what that path to a Palestinian state is. 578 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,000 So as as positive as we are at the moment about the hope of a 579 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,840 hostage exchange with all these detainees in Israel who have 580 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,080 been held without any sense of a trial, the butts are quite 581 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,880 important, aren't they? Like how likely is it that 582 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,200 whatever we get this week actually leads to a position 583 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,760 where we are moving towards a 2 state solution or or do you see 584 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,560 that as impossible with this Israeli government? 585 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:57,800 Yeah. Look, it's, it's an interesting 586 00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,720 question in this game. I mean, I mean, so many people 587 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:04,040 I've, I've, I've read and talked to have said that what we're 588 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,480 looking at now, you know, is, is really a, a, a ceasefire rather 589 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,600 than an end to the conflict. And, and, you know, let's not 590 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,160 denigrate the importance of a ceasefire, you know, 591 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,040 particularly when you have famine that 10s of thousands of 592 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,400 Palestinians killed. I mean, you know, the worst 593 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:27,160 humanitarian disaster taking place under it in front of our 594 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,320 eyes right now in, in, in, in Gaza. 595 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,760 You know, that's clearly, that is clearly the immediate 596 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,720 priority. But yes, I mean, the, the idea 597 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:42,240 of a longer lasting just solution for, for, for everyone 598 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,720 in the region looks to be a very distant prospect. 599 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,240 I mean, what's interesting to me is, is being in Israel, you 600 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,720 know, when so many of those Western countries were were 601 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,720 recognizing A Palestinian state, it wasn't just Prime Minister 602 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,960 Netanyahu who came out in opposition to it. 603 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,320 It was right across the political spectrum. 604 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,960 You know, it was the head of the opposition, it was the Yaya 605 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,080 Lapid, it was Yaya Galan who's the head of the Democrats, the 606 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,280 kind of the main, you know, further to the left party. 607 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:13,640 Certainly. You know, the person who's 608 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,720 perhaps if he, if he, if he ends up formally running Naftali 609 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,600 Bennett, who, who, who might become the new Prime Minister. 610 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,280 He's he's, you know, another right wing figure. 611 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:27,240 He's absolutely viscerally opposed to, to, to, to A2 state 612 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,400 solution. So, you know, it's not just 613 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,360 necessarily a question of right, this government is voted out, 614 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,200 which is, is quite likely to happen when there are elections 615 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,200 next year. And you know, we might see a new 616 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,640 attitude. At the moment there is no 617 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,520 appetite at all. In fact, there's absolute 618 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,800 determination not to allow a Palestinian state to, to, to be 619 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,640 created. Of course things can change. 620 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,760 And you know, you are like I, I was speaking to a Palestinian 621 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,200 official from, from the Palestinian Authority, you know, 622 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,680 who, who it's hoped would have a role in, in, in governing Gaza 623 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,520 instead of Hamas in the future. And I said to him, you know, 624 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:08,840 actually prior to October the 7th, all the polls in in the 625 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,040 West Bank, and probably, I think polls still now certainly in the 626 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,480 West Bank would show that if there were democratic elections 627 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,159 which have not taken place for around 2 decades there, then 628 00:34:17,159 --> 00:34:20,000 Hamas would be elected. So how do you deal with that 629 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,480 like that? That's the reality of what 630 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,159 people feel on the ground. And he said the problem is like, 631 00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:29,320 we can't, you can't polling now. People's emotions are so 632 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,760 inflamed that there's no point. There's no point or there's a 633 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,560 limited value in in asking them their views right now. 634 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:41,520 Ask after everything as as the dust has settled somewhat and 635 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,719 then and when we have results to show people. 636 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,679 So perhaps the same could happen in Israel. 637 00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:51,400 Perhaps we'll see, you know, in a year's time, six months time, 638 00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:54,800 perhaps we'll see a a greater mood of reflection. 639 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,000 I mean, we've seen a kind of a small but growing vocal left 640 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,400 wing movement on the on the ground in Israel that that's 641 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,160 kind of more opposed to, to, to Israeli actions. 642 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,360 But I mean, when you look at the reality, particularly in the in 643 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,400 the occupied West Bank, which is a place where I spend a lot of 644 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,440 time, because as you know, foreign journalists are, are 645 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,680 banned from getting into Gaza by the Israelis. 646 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,160 You know, the way that you have 500,000 settlers, Israeli 647 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,440 settlers now living there, carving up the territory. 648 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,280 It seems on the face of it to make any kind of future 649 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,320 Palestinian state extremely, extremely, extremely difficult, 650 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,480 if not impossible, certainly without visionary, very 651 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:38,160 motivated leadership on, on on all sides, particularly on the 652 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,360 Israeli side. And and that doesn't seem to be 653 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,440 something that's on the cards and just a. 654 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,840 Final thought from me on that and then we'll wrap up. 655 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,400 But the question you asked me about what where does America 656 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,920 stand on the long term? Does it want a lasting peace? 657 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,760 I was in the White House briefing room this week 658 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,360 listening to Press Secretary Caroline Leavitt and and the 659 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,960 absolute focus was on getting this first stage done, getting 660 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,120 security guarantees for Israel in particular and getting to a 661 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,920 ceasefire as fast as they can. When she was asked by an 662 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,400 American journalist, do you then, you know, if there is then 663 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,440 a technocratic Palestinian leadership in Gaza, do you then 664 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,720 support the idea of a Palestinian state? 665 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,120 She wouldn't be drawn on it at all and basically said, let's 666 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,480 not get ahead of ourselves. So for all the pressure Trump is 667 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,960 exerting right now, I don't think we should kid ourselves 668 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,880 that America is going to come all out in terms of completing 669 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,840 the plan. And support for Israel remains 670 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:38,720 very strong within this administration. 671 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,680 Seth, thank you so much for your time and for being with us 672 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:44,920 today. I really, really appreciate it. 673 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,440 Good to be with you. That was Sakanda Kamani, our 674 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,800 foreign affairs correspondent here at Channel 4 News. 675 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,800 Do watch all of his amazing content. 676 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:57,920 That's it for this week at Trump WORLD. 677 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,400 Next week, I'll be back with Matt when he returns from 678 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:02,560 holiday. See you then.