1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,640 You are tuning into the Rich Habits Radar, our Friday episode 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:06,440 of the Rich Habits Podcast, where every Friday morning we're 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,960 coming at you with the biggest headlines impacting you and your 4 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:11,720 money. This episode is brought to you 5 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,280 by VCX, the public ticker for Private Tech. 6 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,240 My name is Austin Hankwitz and I'm joined by my Co host Robert 7 00:00:17,240 --> 00:00:19,720 Croke. And this episode is going to be 8 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:21,680 a little different. Instead of running through our 9 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,920 normal 3 headlines and three radar points, we're going to be 10 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,520 having a very special conversation with the CEO of 11 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,600 Affirm. Max Levchin, a firm, recently 12 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,440 reported their earnings results. The stock is up 70% throughout 13 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,200 the months of April and May. So what better time to chat with 14 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,880 the CEO of a $25 billion company than after a ton of cool 15 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,040 announcements? So Robert, let's jump into our 16 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:49,320 conversation with Max Levchin. Max, thanks again so much for 17 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:51,240 joining us. Great to be here again so you 18 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,560 all. Just wrapped up your 2026 19 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,720 Investor Forum and you're coming off your tenth straight quarter 20 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:02,320 of 30% or higher GMB growth. Most people listening right now 21 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,400 still file a firm under the Buy now, pay Later acronym. 22 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,040 If that's the wrong box, what's the right one? 23 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:11,320 What is a firm actually trying to become? 24 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:14,240 You know, I think I'm done fighting the BNPL moniker. 25 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:16,440 For a while I was raging against, you know, don't, don't 26 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:18,440 put me in a box. And I'm over that. 27 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,440 What's important to understand is BNPL, or at least a firm 28 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,960 within that category is fundamentally a mind shift or a 29 00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:27,840 vibe shift, as the kids say these days. 30 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,520 You can borrow money. It's a good, good use of 31 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,720 Personal Capital to stretch your money out into the future. 32 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:36,760 And there's the right way to do it and the wrong way to do it. 33 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,560 And we represent certainly to our biased opinion, the right 34 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:41,080 way to do it. We don't charge late fees. 35 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,400 We don't do deferred interest. All the sort of things that are 36 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,880 kind of scary because they really are, we don't do, We are 37 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,240 super transparent. We do everything simple 38 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,640 interest, we pre communicate, pre price everything. 39 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,840 We reward you for paying early all all the things that our firm 40 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:56,400 stands for. So that's called BNPL. 41 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:57,640 So be it. We are unique. 42 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,880 We're still the only company in the industry that does all these 43 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,440 things in a very specific or deliberate way that is so 44 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,800 profoundly pro consumer and in that sense we are in a box of 45 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:08,360 our own and I'm quite happy. Being there, yeah. 46 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,039 Maybe talk more about what makes you all so unique. 47 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,480 I mean, just for example, right? Like walk me through a 48 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,520 transaction a firm did maybe six months ago that makes the next 49 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,000 one cheaper or more accurate. Yeah. 50 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,000 So as you guys know, every transaction that is powered by a 51 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,720 firm is underwritten individually in the moment of 52 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:28,960 transaction. So we take all the data that's 53 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,960 available about you as a consumer, as a shopper, as a 54 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,400 borrower, and the thing that you're buying, drop it all into 55 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:37,840 a giant AI model. And it tells us, here's the 56 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:42,680 price of risk, here is the cost of lending you this money based 57 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,280 on everything we know about you. So if six months ago you came 58 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:49,160 in, we never met you before, we can infer a little bit of value 59 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,920 based on your credit poor data, which we pull based on kind of 60 00:02:53,920 --> 00:02:57,320 what we think we know about with the kind of thing you're buying. 61 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:59,280 There's some very interesting fraud related data. 62 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,360 If you're buying something could be easily fenced in a street 63 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:03,240 corner, there's a little bit of an increase in risk. 64 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,880 If you're buying something that is essentially a capital asset, 65 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:08,800 that's a lower risk. Buying a mattress, we're easily 66 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:10,520 convinced that's probably something going to sleep on as 67 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:12,600 opposed to try to sell it to the highest bidder, etcetera. 68 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,080 So the, the models take all the data in and give you, give us a 69 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,840 price and we show it to you and say, hey, this is the cost of 70 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,240 credit. A lot of times the retailer or 71 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,800 sometimes the manufacturer will pay your cost of credit or pay 72 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:25,600 your interest for you. So it's a 0% loan. 73 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,120 But in either case, there's some associated cost that the model 74 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:29,880 tries to predict. And we're very, very good at 75 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:31,080 that. We've been at it for 15 years. 76 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,280 Models are very precise. The next time you come around, 77 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,680 assuming you have paid your bills from a firm on time or 78 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,440 early, which we love, we'll say, hey, you know what, we know more 79 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:41,280 about you now. It's not just the publicly 80 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,280 available credit data. It's not just what you're 81 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:44,520 buying. It's also the fact that we've 82 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:48,120 seen you in action. The cost of risk will go down 83 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,720 and we'll pass it right on to you, and your next transaction 84 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:52,360 will be cheaper and it goes on and on. 85 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:56,800 Models are built to take that into account every single time, 86 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,760 and that that's why it's so powerful to underwrite every one 87 00:03:58,760 --> 00:03:59,920 of these transactions in real time. 88 00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:03,440 And when you say pass that on to the consumer, how does that? 89 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:04,960 How does that work? Just ends up being lower 90 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:05,720 interest. Got it. 91 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:07,280 That's really cool. I appreciate you walking through 92 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,240 that, Max. Two weeks ago you announced firm 93 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,280 is going into Google Search AI mode and the Gemini app via 94 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,120 Google Pay. For folks who haven't 95 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,720 internalized what a Gentek commerce means yet, paint the 96 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,920 picture for them because from a year from now someone asked 97 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,160 Gemini to plan a trip to Europe. What does the checkout 98 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:29,080 experience actually look like? And where's the firm sit in it? 99 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,800 It's a great question and you know, the future is super 100 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,400 interesting and exciting and it's fun to try to participate 101 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:35,720 in both predicting and building it. 102 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,520 This is already happening. This isn't quite figment of 103 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:40,960 someone's imagination. So if you go into Gemini today 104 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,080 and you type in, hey, I'm going to Europe, help me figure out 105 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,360 how to get there. Here's my budget. 106 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,680 I want to be able to fly a family of four, the city, this 107 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,280 city, etcetera, etcetera. Gemini'll do a pretty good job 108 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:54,920 saying, all right, I can see some information about airlines. 109 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,640 I can help you shop for seats, etcetera. 110 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,760 So that's already happening. The next thing that's going to 111 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,480 start happening more and more and it's already beginning and 112 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,240 we are an excited part of this is you can tell Gemini or your 113 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,200 favorite bot or your favorite LLM. 114 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:10,920 Hey, I actually want to close the transaction now. 115 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:12,400 I like the price. I like what I'm seeing. 116 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,760 How can I afford this? And it has been our job for 15 117 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,360 years to answer the question, how can I afford this in the 118 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,080 most transparent, sensible, lowest cost possible way? 119 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,320 And So what we've built are these plug insurance that go 120 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,320 into LLMS and pipe up right as you ask this question, Hey, how 121 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,440 do I pay for this thing? And obviously we're not the only 122 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:31,760 ones that will be plenty of choices. 123 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,560 But the thing we're so excited about it is think in the past. 124 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,240 The thing that I love to Rage Against this idea of, you know, 125 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:39,960 zero with a tiny asterisk. Don't read the fine print, 126 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:41,680 you're getting screwed. You don't know how doesn't 127 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,120 matter. Like that's the the business 128 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,120 model of old. The business model of a firm is 129 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:47,440 you are not going to get screwed. 130 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,800 We take it as our responsibility to you to give you the exact 131 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:52,760 price and a super transparent language. 132 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:54,680 One of our core values is no fine print. 133 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,440 It's always been hard to compete against those who have a 134 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,400 somewhat less scrupulous approach because the fine print 135 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:00,600 is really fine. You can't read it. 136 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,160 And I can Rage Against the fine print all I like, but the 137 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,280 consumer who's got two kids to travel to Europe with is not 138 00:06:06,280 --> 00:06:09,240 actually going to have the time to be like, wait a second, I got 139 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,360 to read the fine print. So they still get trapped. 140 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,000 They still get into these full transactions that later on they 141 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,160 come to regret, but too late. What's amazing about Chad bots, 142 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:21,360 amazing about AI is each one of these bots has a PhD in consumer 143 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,880 finance. They are looking out for you 144 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,680 every single moment. And so as you say, hey, how can 145 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:30,080 I afford this thing? A firm will pipe up with pay. 146 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,280 Here is a pay in six plan. Here's the exact cost of 147 00:06:33,280 --> 00:06:34,720 interest. If you prepaid, the interest is 148 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,520 going to come out. Or here's a trip by an airline 149 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,440 that we have a partnership with. They will pay your interest for 150 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:41,800 you. So it's a true no interest loan. 151 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:43,800 Doesn't matter if you're a couple says late, doesn't matter 152 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:45,960 if you forgot a payment. We're not going to flip on you 153 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,000 and charge you a bunch of interest you didn't expect like 154 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,240 some of the other characters that I enjoy raging against. 155 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,600 And so that combination of extreme consumer convenience, 156 00:06:54,920 --> 00:07:00,440 transparency, and AI being the world's best watch of these fine 157 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,200 print gotchas, we think it's just going to not only do great 158 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:07,280 things for our business, but fundamentally change the bar, 159 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:09,560 raise the bar on financial products. 160 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,360 Every single person asking their AI to help them buy something, 161 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,040 afford something, plan a financial decision is going to 162 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,880 get a better outcome because these things are never going to 163 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:20,160 be fooled. They're capable of doing 164 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,880 advanced math right there in front of you and boiling it down 165 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,160 for you in a single light. This one has no fees. 166 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:26,560 It's a pretty good thing. Cool. 167 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:28,280 They're not going to make a decision for you, but they're 168 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,720 going to make your decision. Most informed decision possible. 169 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,080 You mentioned competition you're launching alongside Klarna in 170 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,720 the same Google integration. From a retail investor 171 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,880 standpoint, why doesn't this become a race to 0 where the AI 172 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,800 agent just picks the cheapest option every time? 173 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,800 Spell out what a firm's Moat is in this agent mediated world. 174 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,680 Because I just want them to really understand because it 175 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,720 does seem like a challenge for you guys, but I love the fact 176 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:55,880 you have all this transparency. So walk our listeners. 177 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,640 Through that a challenge we we are embracing wholeheartedly. 178 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,800 So I think there are two fundamental things that make us 179 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:03,040 different. Maybe 3. 180 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,320 I'll, I'll start with two and then I'll add one more. 181 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:07,680 Number one, much to my chagrin, by the way, look, this, this 182 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,400 advantage I'll give away, anyone who wants it is welcome to it. 183 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:14,680 So stop charging late fees, stop doing compounding interest, stop 184 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,520 having transaction fees, all the fees that the industry loves to 185 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,840 throw in. We don't do any of that and for 186 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,880 years, I feel like we just never quite got our fair share of love 187 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,680 and recognition for those who use us know exactly what we 188 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:28,560 stand for. In fact, our best customers are 189 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,400 the ones that have been late by a day or two. 190 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,840 I used to love listening in on phone calls, but like, hey, I'm 191 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,480 late by a day or two. Can I just just be current and 192 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:36,919 you'll be OK? Like what's the late fee? 193 00:08:36,919 --> 00:08:39,480 There is no late fee. Like, Oh my God, that is so 194 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:40,640 cool. Like I've heard that that is so 195 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,440 cool so many times. It's just, it's, it's the, it's 196 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,040 the happiest. We are still largely the only 197 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:47,960 player that does this at any kind of scale. 198 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:52,160 And so right now, as these AIS compare all these providers to 199 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,360 each other, we tend to stand out in a good way of like, hey, this 200 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,360 is the one with no fees. So I will gladly share that 201 00:08:58,560 --> 00:09:00,320 podium with anyone who wants to be on it. 202 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,120 But for now, we are unique, maybe the more permanent or at 203 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,440 least harder to dismantle advantage. 204 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,840 We've been at this idea for 15 years, which also means we've 205 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,720 gone to literally hundreds of thousands of retailers and 206 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,400 struck special partial pricing contracts with them where they 207 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,680 will pay your interest either fully or partially, sometimes 208 00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:21,760 during a promotional period, sometimes during every day of 209 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:23,960 the year. But the same level of 210 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:28,240 transparency, the same level of no fees, no gotchas, 0 means 0. 211 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,200 All the stuff that we just bring from ourselves, we pass on or 212 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,120 invite retailers and brands and manufacturers to participate in. 213 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:39,320 So when you go into a chatbot and you're buying a Samsung TV 214 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,800 on a 0% transaction, you know it's zero because it's a firm 215 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,720 making the promise, but it's also unique. 216 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,920 You can try to buy it with any other payment provider, BNPL or 217 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:50,080 otherwise. You're going to find yourself 218 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:51,400 paying interest. You're going to find yourself 219 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:53,120 also wondering if there's going to be any fees. 220 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:55,240 But even without it, you're going to find it a little bit 221 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,600 more expensive. So quite happy to compete on 222 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,440 that facet of price because we do have these contracts and take 223 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,440 a long time to negotiate. They take a long time to execute 224 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,400 very carefully because retailers, they don't have 225 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,360 infinite margins. So each time they subsidized 226 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,240 this sort of a 0% loan, they have to believe it's a consumer 227 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,120 who's only going to buy when they are seeing this particular 228 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,480 promotion powered by us. And we have incredible amount of 229 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:22,960 experience doing it. But also huge systems of 230 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,480 software that we've built over the years to provide visibility 231 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:27,920 and transparency to the retailers to make sure that they 232 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,040 can run these ad campaigns responsibly, thoughtfully and 233 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:32,600 get the most for their money here. 234 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,680 So that's a a huge, very, very sophisticated advantage that we 235 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:39,080 bring to bear that we've used very successfully over the years 236 00:10:39,680 --> 00:10:41,560 outside of AI. We think it's going to be 237 00:10:41,560 --> 00:10:43,960 multiplicative within AI. And then just one last bit, 238 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,440 since sort of the 2 1/2, the other thing we've done for the 239 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:48,240 last 15 years. So we've gotten better and 240 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,120 better at underwriting. And so at any given moment when 241 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,440 we are side by side with any one of our competitors, especially 242 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,400 for things like 6 month transactions or 12 month 243 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,400 transactions or something that's actually quite long term and has 244 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,040 real risk to it. If you know as, as people in 245 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,040 credit say 12 opportunities to default, 18 opportunities to 246 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,320 default, it's kind of a, it's a bad joke, but it's not 247 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:09,840 completely wrong. We're very good at sizing that 248 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,120 risk and pricing it correctly. And so typically we approve more 249 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,280 people while having lower losses. 250 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:19,080 And so that again creates A Moat or an opportunity for us to 251 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,160 outperform form our competitors. So we love competing. 252 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,040 We're I'm generally sort of a competitive person, but who very 253 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:28,560 good competing in a space where the judge has a PhD in consumer 254 00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:31,000 finance. Austin Before we ask Max our 255 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,920 next question, support for the show comes from VCX, the public 256 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,480 ticker for private tech. For generations, American 257 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,640 companies have moved the world forward through their ingenuity 258 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,120 and determination. 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This is a paid sponsorship. 279 00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:45,840 Back to our conversation with Max Lebchen. 280 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,600 I want to linger on that half of the 2 1/2 that you had, you 281 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,600 know, mention there around the consumer side of things because 282 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,880 we're seeing credit card delinquencies climbing, you 283 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,400 know, household savings are getting drawn down. 284 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,000 But you also said on your call that you're not seeing 285 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,640 deterioration as it relates to your business. 286 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:06,760 Help me understand that. Is a firm's consumer different 287 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:08,400 or kind of like what you're alluding to or you're just 288 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,600 better at saying no when truly underwriting every single one of 289 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:13,040 these transactions? It's it's. 290 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,400 Fascinating. The answer is actually kind of 291 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,400 both. Or maybe yes, is the we are 292 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,160 better at saying no in a sense that we have the right or the 293 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:25,040 opportunity to be the consultant or the, you know, sometimes 294 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:26,800 people ask me like, what is a firm? 295 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,080 Like, what are you to me as a person? 296 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,280 And I'm not really a brand marketer. 297 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:33,880 So I always struggle with these like, what is it? 298 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,120 But someone I know who is a brilliant brand marketer said, 299 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,040 you're like the smart older sister. 300 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,040 Like you're like, hey, that's a bad idea. 301 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,360 Put down that wallet. Like don't buy that thing. 302 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:44,480 You should not indulge like this. 303 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,160 This is or hey, that's cool, you deserve it, Go, go, go get it. 304 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,120 And so the ability to say no or yes in the right moment, the 305 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,160 right way as a sort of a friend or a coach or somebody who's 306 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,640 actually out to look for your best financial outcome is 307 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:58,480 something that we're very, very good at. 308 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,680 And so because that is a fairly unique value proposition, we 309 00:14:01,680 --> 00:14:03,480 appeal to a particular type of a consumer. 310 00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:07,120 Like the person who wants that participatory engagement from 311 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,400 their credit provider is someone who's actually quite motivated 312 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,080 not to be behind. Our consumer knows we're going 313 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,440 to say no, you know, when we feel you really shouldn't be 314 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:17,000 buying this. We're also very frequently we'll 315 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,360 say things like, hey, $600.00 bicycle is a little bit more 316 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,480 than you can afford right now. However, we're quite happy to 317 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:28,440 lend you 2/3 of this, but you do have to put 1/3 down as a down 318 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,560 payment because that's what we think is the right sort of 319 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,440 contours of a loan for you for this purpose right now. 320 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,480 And so that consumer is doing fine, but it's also because they 321 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:39,920 want to do fine. They're motivated to improve 322 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:41,720 their financial reality. Like maybe the most shocking 323 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,080 thing about a firm is that we are a living proof that in the 324 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,720 last 12 months, 27 ish million such people exist. 325 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,280 You would think that, you know, we hear in in the front pages of 326 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,000 various newspapers is people don't care about their financial 327 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,280 reality. They're sort of shopping was 328 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:57,920 their eyes closed. They're not reading their 329 00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:59,640 financial statements. And I'm here to tell you that's 330 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:01,880 not true. Like we have 10s of millions of 331 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,320 people who are coming back to us now almost 7 * a year saying, 332 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,440 hey, make sure the thing I'm buying isn't going to bite me. 333 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,400 I'm not going to regret it. I'm not going to be figuring out 334 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,120 how the hell did I get myself into this kind of debt. 335 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,280 And so that customer exists, they shop with us, they're doing 336 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:17,920 fine. I think some of the less 337 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,480 scrupulous providers are happy to lend money because they'll 338 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,000 make it back in things like late fees and delinquency charges. 339 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:25,880 And we don't do that. And turns out that a lot of 340 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,680 people in America who actually quite prefer that sort of way. 341 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,000 Of living and we don't blame them at all I. 342 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,400 I think I'm preaching to acquire a little bit here, but I just 343 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,240 want your, your viewers, your listeners to know they're not 344 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:38,600 alone. There's a lot of people who 345 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,440 really want to have a lifestyle that they can afford but also 346 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:43,840 profoundly enjoyable. Yeah, I want to go into some 347 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,600 more numbers. You've been throwing around all 348 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,600 these great growth numbers, but I saw that the Affirm card more 349 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,000 than doubled to 4.4 million card holders. 350 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,480 And you also announced a firm edge to embed pay overtime 351 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:01,880 inside banking apps that now reaches 130 million Americans. 352 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,920 Both of these moves are about going from a button at checkout 353 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,040 to a default payment system inside of someone's life. 354 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,400 How do you think about this from a cannibalization versus an 355 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,960 expansion here for people that are trying trying to buy things 356 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,320 the right way and use your service? 357 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,560 We're not so large as to worry about cannibalization of 358 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,120 anything just yet for a very long time. 359 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:29,480 Like the the total addressable market of US commerce is calling 360 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,040 on the order of a trillion dollars plus that we can play in 361 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,240 right now just given the products that we have 20% last I 362 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,920 read happens online. You know, all those metrics are 363 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:40,920 giant. If you, if you look at the, the 364 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:46,040 number we put out as our this fiscal year expected GMV volume, 365 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,560 it's still in, you know, touching 50 billion. 366 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:49,800 That seems like an enormous number. 367 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,080 And it is an enormous number just in the absolute scale. 368 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,000 But in the grand scheme of credit card payments or commerce 369 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,440 payments or any denominator you choose, we are so tiny. 370 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,280 Calibration doesn't doesn't enter my imagination. 371 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,840 So that that's sort of Part 1, Part 2. 372 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:08,160 You know, I'm completely serious when I shake my fist at the 373 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,839 compounding interest and revolving debt and fees that 374 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:13,960 shouldn't exist. And it's the best kind of 375 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:18,560 problem to have if suddenly more debit cards in America end up 376 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,440 growing quote UN quote. This borrowing capability that 377 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:26,319 we built into our debit card because it is that same mode of 378 00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:29,240 responsible borrowing with no fees, no compounding, etcetera. 379 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:34,080 So bring that functionality to other issuers, banks, credit 380 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,440 unions, fintechs, you know, whoever wants to partner with 381 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:37,600 us. And we, we know we're privileged 382 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,640 to have a couple of, you know, our, our earliest partners on 383 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,960 stage with us at Investor Forum to just sort of Telegraph the 384 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:44,880 excitement the industry has about this product. 385 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,120 It's great. I, I, I would love for every 386 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,120 bank that issues debit cards to have a firm edge, the 387 00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:52,680 functionality of a firm card built into their debit card. 388 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,200 One of the cool things that sort of, you know, bears repeating, 389 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,200 the unique thing that we bring to bear isn't just the 390 00:17:58,200 --> 00:17:59,840 underwriting, isn't just the sort of clever technical 391 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,760 functionality. We do have these arrangements 392 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,080 with many, many retailers, many brands that will subsidized 393 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,200 these transactions for you. So embedded in that partnership 394 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,560 that Affirm Edge is is a giant to home of promotional finance 395 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,080 available to anyone who participates. 396 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,360 So we, we, we, we think there's a huge opportunity. 397 00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:19,560 We're very excited. We are but a tiny speck of 398 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:20,880 consumer finance in this country. 399 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:22,960 We would love to bring our flavour to everyone. 400 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,400 That's fascinating. And I remember when the Affirm 401 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,640 card first came out, it was such this, you know, revolutionary 402 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,760 product in the sense that everything that you bought on 403 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,960 the Affirm card was sort of pay in for, right? 404 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,480 It's not just like does this specific retailer offer some 405 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,800 sort of, you know, pay in for for a product? 406 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:41,840 It's like, no, you can go buy your Blistex. 407 00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:44,720 That's a bad example, but you go by I'm looking at my Blistex 408 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:46,200 here. You can go buy something at 409 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,960 Walgreens or CVS or something, whatever you need there, use 410 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,440 your Affirm card for it. And you know, you sort of have 411 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,880 all the same abilities to to pay in for like you would if it was 412 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,000 a specific retailer being able to unlock that to not just the 413 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,280 4.4 million people that use the Affirm card. 414 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,200 But to your point, with this Affirm Edge, I mean that is 415 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,600 fascinating stuff. Just for the record, it's more 416 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,080 than Pain 4. So pain 4 is a great tool. 417 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,120 You know, Blistex is probably, I mean, I don't know what kind of 418 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:13,040 Blistex you buy, but mine is quite affordable even in today's 419 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:15,800 strange world. But a nice lunch. 420 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,560 You might consider splitting into four if that's what your 421 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,240 heart desires. But Affirm card incidentally 422 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,280 supports a pay now mode. So a Blistex is probably very 423 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,760 appropriate to just pay for it right now and move on. 424 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,120 But if you're looking at ATV or a fridge or you know, something 425 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,480 quite pricey, you can go into the Affirm app and with edge 426 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,560 into your bank app and say, hey, the next transaction at, you 427 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,560 know, Best Buy, not a current integrated Affirm partner. 428 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,960 When I tap my card there, I want it to be alone anyway. 429 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,320 And so the magic of the Affirm card and included in Affirm edge 430 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,840 stack is ability to say hey at the store whether a firm is 431 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,760 tightly integrated or not integrated at all or some 432 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:55,960 combination of the two. The next transaction I want it 433 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,080 to be a loan and I want it to be pre approved. 434 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,080 And I want to know my rate, if any. 435 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,160 And I want it to be a six month loan or 12 months loan. 436 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,400 I want a budget and I want the budget to be up to this number. 437 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,040 And if I spend less, I want it to adjust down. 438 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:08,640 And all this happened seamlessly. 439 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,120 Basically automatically while telling you all the time here's 440 00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:14,320 exactly how it's going to work, here's exactly how much you 441 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,400 going to pay not a penny more. All the same functionality you 442 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,840 come to expect from a firm and it does support paying for 443 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,800 certainly is a very popular product, but goes out to four 444 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:23,840 years sometimes. So this is it's a very, very 445 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:26,000 versatile tool. The reason it's been growing by 446 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,400 far the fastest in all of our product ecosystems because it is 447 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,280 just such a powerful tool and it it it really is a full-featured 448 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,800 replacement for a credit card with absolutely no revolving, 449 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,160 absolutely no fees, absolutely no annual fees or anything. 450 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:38,800 I mean, that's. That's the story right there, 451 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,080 and I hope everyone listening right now completely understands 452 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,400 that at the end of the day, we need credit, we need liquidity. 453 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,000 People need to have the opportunity to say, I need to 454 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,000 borrow X amount of dollars for this refrigerator or for this, 455 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,920 whatever it might be. And unfortunately, the system 456 00:20:54,920 --> 00:21:00,520 that has existed for the last several decades is ambiguity and 457 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,800 an asterisk next to the 0%, right? 458 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:04,400 That is that that's been the system. 459 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,560 But you all are flipping that on its head with authenticity, 460 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,600 transparency. And of course, now with this 130 461 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,920 million Americans that can do this in their banking apps. 462 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,560 I mean, it's it is incredible. Now Robert, before we ask Max 463 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,040 our final question, we absolutely are in the summer 464 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:23,240 months and after what's been going on in the Middle East, now 465 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,280 the new Fed Chairman and inflation like uncertainty has 466 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,760 never felt so high. The major indices have been all 467 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,000 over the place. Let's be real. the Fed has 468 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,640 completely flip-flopped on their rate cut assumptions. 469 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,400 And again, inflation remains just incredibly sticky here. 470 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,920 We just got a four handle on inflation, 4.2%. 471 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,320 Unreal. And that is why it's never been 472 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,200 more important to have a plan and stick to it. 473 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,720 And if you're a long term investor like us, the plan has 474 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,080 never been easier to come up with and implement. 475 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,480 Dollar cost, average and ride the wave. 100%, Robert, we've 476 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,440 been talking about how important it is to dollar cost average for 477 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,440 years now. And when the market feels shaky, 478 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,640 it's hard to see your progress. This is why we recommend being 479 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,640 part of a social platform like Blossom Social, because on 480 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,080 Blossom you're able to see your entire portfolio in a very clean 481 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,920 and simple way, which includes your holdings, your performance, 482 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,160 your dividends, everything you can think of. 483 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,200 You're also able to follow other long term investors on the 484 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,720 platform, helping you stay motivated during these uncertain 485 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,960 times. Not to mention the portfolios on 486 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,240 Blossom are all verified, so if you're seeing someone buy or 487 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,200 sell a name, it's because they actually did it in their own 488 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,360 brokerage accounts. We're both on there, our 489 00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:37,080 portfolios are on there, all the fun stuff. 490 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,360 So if you want to join us, search Blossom Social in the App 491 00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:43,280 Store, head over to blossomsocial.com. 492 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,040 And don't forget they just came out with their AI assistant, 493 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,560 Bevis, where you can ask it any question about your portfolio, 494 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:52,160 which I think is a really cool feature. 495 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,760 So again, awesomesocial.com link in the show notes below. 496 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,040 All right, Robert, let's now ask Max our final question. 497 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,600 I know we've only got you for a couple more minutes, Max, So 498 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,240 last question here for you. You've spent your entire career 499 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,560 here building products around how people handle money. 500 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,920 What is the one money habit you think most people are missing? 501 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,400 And what would you tell someone who feels like the financial 502 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,080 system today has just not really worked for them? 503 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,240 I think people just, and I am in that list and you know, you're 504 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:22,960 totally right. I've been doing this since my 505 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,480 early 20s, so I really should get it by now. 506 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,880 But somebody tells you, $1000 loan, six months, 20% APR, what 507 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,800 are you going to pay at the end of the year? 508 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,200 People just stare blankly at the wall and make estimates and 509 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:37,640 they're all over the map and they're always wrong. 510 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,080 It's a great party trick I used to do back in the old days. 511 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,040 I'd fly to New York to try to raise money for a firm when we 512 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,520 were a tiny fledgling. And I would go into like venture 513 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,320 capital offices or hedge fund offices. 514 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,800 And I'm like, hey, I have a, have a basic math question for 515 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:52,960 you guys. You're, you're smart people. 516 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,360 You trade stocks, You're, you're serious $1000 loan, blah, blah, 517 00:23:56,360 --> 00:23:58,120 blah. What's the total cost? 518 00:23:58,120 --> 00:23:59,720 People were like, Oh yeah, I got this. 519 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,640 And they'd be like 80% wrong or 100% wrong. 520 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,880 And so people are not very good at computing revolving credit 521 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:09,960 costs. And it's designed to be hard to 522 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:11,000 compute. So I don't feel bad. 523 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,320 But if you choose to use that product or if you at least 524 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,480 understand one, to understand how it works, make sure you have 525 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,680 a sense for it. And it, it's a thing that often 526 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,520 enough people just sort of say, you know what, I give up, I 527 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,120 can't get it. I don't understand why I'm in 528 00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:24,600 debt. I'll probably never get out. 529 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,560 And a lot of people we know are struggling through life 530 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,240 financially because they just sort of given up trying to 531 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,200 understand. And obviously, our mission since 532 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,920 the very beginning, my personal mission for a long time has been 533 00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:37,920 how do you shine a light, how to make it easier to understand, 534 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,640 how to build products where we can compete with the tools that 535 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,840 exist today, that are not designed for transparency. 536 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,720 But some degree of basic understanding of financial 537 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,120 mathematics is a really, really useful skill that an awful lot 538 00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:51,640 of people don't seem to fully understand. 539 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:53,840 It's not you. The system is built to be 540 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,720 confusing. There is an alternative. 541 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,640 We are it. Please try us, but don't feel 542 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,480 bad that you can't do the exponential math. 543 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,960 It's designed to be difficult. It's designed to be difficult. 544 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,040 I like that. Max, thank you so much for 545 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:07,880 joining us again here on the Rich Habits Podcast. 546 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,840 We're so grateful to have hosted you and for taking some time out 547 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,440 of your busy schedule. So excited that you know, the 548 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,040 investor Forum went so well and all these great stats. 549 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,160 Can't wait to have you back to talk more about in the future. 550 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,840 Thank you guys for having me and always great to see you. 551 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,160 Thanks Max. Robert, another incredible 552 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,840 conversation with Max Levchin, so grateful that he takes time 553 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:27,560 out of his busy schedule, especially after these 554 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,080 incredible earnings calls. I just saw his stock is up 555 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,680 literally 60 something percent in just the last two months now 556 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,080 from the lows of March, I think it was when the markets kind of 557 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:38,520 hit that bottom at the end of March there. 558 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,160 I mean, it's, it's incredible to see these partnerships. 559 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,160 It's so cool to see, you know, his Affirm card doubling to 4.4 560 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,960 million card holders, tenth straight quarter of 30% plus GMV 561 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:51,680 regrowth. I mean, they are building this 562 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,600 company to not only solve problems, but scale 563 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,400 indefinitely. It's really, really exciting to 564 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,840 see. And I guess the last like thing 565 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:01,960 I just want people to reflect upon with these conversations 566 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,160 because let's be real, Robert, we've talked about buy now, pay 567 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,360 later. It kind of gets this like 568 00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:08,320 negative connotation for good reason. 569 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,480 It's people that normally can't afford things. 570 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:11,880 They just say, oh, I'm just going to put on the buy now, pay 571 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:13,480 later. And this happened to me after 572 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,640 our first conversation with Max, but I've completely switched on 573 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,960 what I think about a firm specifically because of Max's 574 00:26:20,120 --> 00:26:23,960 deep conviction and authenticity, transparency, 575 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,000 clarity. Like I said it during the 576 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,640 episode, we need credit. We need to have liquidity. 577 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,000 We need to have that revolving ability to say, oh, I need to 578 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,920 have access to $1200 if I need to go buy this refrigerator or 579 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,640 pay this person or whatever I have to do here. 580 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,520 And being able to lean on a firm to automatically do that 581 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,600 underwriting transaction by transaction, and then saying, 582 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,200 hey, we've realized you're good at this. 583 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,720 We're actually going to pass or savings on to you by offering 584 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,560 you a lower interest rate or whatever it might be. 585 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:58,400 I just, I really appreciate a firm's business model and their 586 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,000 mission toward transparency and transparent. 587 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,680 Credit, I agree with you 100%. Max has changed my mind 588 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,880 completely because we always talk about people, you know, 589 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,200 staying out of high interest credit card debt and all of 590 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,600 that. But a firm has literally built 591 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,160 the best mousetrap to allow people access to capital they 592 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,960 need for short term, but in a way that is fair and reasonable. 593 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,320 So they're not getting into this high interest debt. 594 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,200 I love what a firm is doing. I think it's really great for 595 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,000 people. And I think about like the 596 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,440 average home that maybe is doing a deck remodel in the spring and 597 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,240 needed $1000 worth of lumber to do this remodel. 598 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,440 And they can put it out over four or six months without all 599 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,640 of the fees and all of the other different things that run the 600 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,120 bill up on them. So I think it's a really 601 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:46,520 effective way to borrow money for people in their day-to-day 602 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,440 lives. And I love that Max comes on the 603 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:49,960 show and shares it with our audience. 604 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,560 And to just linger on that for a moment, if there are fees 605 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,560 associated with whatever is going on, you know what they 606 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,000 are, their fees are upfront. It's like, yes, we're going to 607 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,600 charge you this much interest, you prepaid whatever. 608 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,560 Like this is exactly how much this total cost is going to be. 609 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,400 To Max's point on that last question, it's not, you know, 610 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,800 what's $1000 of credit card debt for six months compounding at 611 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,400 20%? No, no. 612 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,600 And nobody knows. And that's why Visa and 613 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,040 MasterCard are several $100 billion companies because 614 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,520 they've been able to fool us all to figure out what our interest 615 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,800 actually is. Now, along alongside the late 616 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,680 fees and the hidden fees and all this other stuff, I just, I love 617 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,600 the authenticity, the transparency, and, you know, it 618 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,160 kind of goes back to Robert. What you know, Max was talking 619 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,640 about when it comes to these AI agents, all of these agents, 620 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,640 I've already done this. I remember doing this. 621 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,800 I, I literally was, was with Google and I was trying to 622 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,160 figure out flights and I, I actually asked Google Gemini. 623 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,280 I said, hey, I need a flight from here to here. 624 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,400 Help me find the best one and, and how do I buy it? 625 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,680 And it found me the flights. It did all this stuff for me, 626 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,760 but I didn't actually do the checkout thing with them. 627 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,200 I don't think the tech was there just yet, but I could absolutely 628 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,400 sing it getting there. But to Max's point, he's right. 629 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,560 Those AI agents are going to be, you know, genius pH DS in 630 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,440 personal finance and these numbers. 631 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:13,280 And So what begins to happen is if you run a good honest 632 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,920 business and you're not trying to deceive an AI agent, you 633 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,000 know, you can deceive humans because we're not, you know, we 634 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:21,960 don't know better sometimes when it comes to these hidden fees. 635 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,280 But if it's written somewhere, that AI agent is going to find 636 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:25,680 it, they're going to let you know about it, right? 637 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,640 So if you just run an honest business like that's the Moat 638 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,640 and it's a pretty simple Moat. Yeah, I love it. 639 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,960 You know, and one of the best quotes from their call that Max 640 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,360 said, and I'm going to read this so I get it right. 641 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,160 The world is divided into companies run by engineers and 642 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,760 companies trying to figure out how engineer run companies are 643 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,360 leapfrogging them. And that's what it's all about. 644 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:53,080 This AI and all the technology that they built into a firm has 645 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:54,680 just made them a better mousetrap. 646 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,240 I don't know any other way to say it. 647 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,080 Making it more affordable for people to borrow money, and 648 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,720 that's what it's all about. That and the transparency. 649 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,800 It's a win for me and I love having Max on the show. 650 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,840 Thanks again to Max and the team for joining us and orchestrating 651 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,080 this conversation. Cannot wait to have Max back on 652 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:12,040 the show very soon.