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Prepared to hear the truth from 
a real whistleblower and 

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American patriot? 
Here's civil liberties 

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enthusiast, Second Amendment 
defender, and indefinitely 

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suspended FBI agent Kyle 
Serafin. 

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Welcome my friends. 
Thank you for joining me on the 

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Kyle Seraphin Show. 
I've got a guest for you today, 

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as we promised for all of our 
Mondays, and today's guest is 

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exceptional, as have been the 
last. 

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Today we have Gerald Mullen, AKA
Jerry, and Jerry, you're going 

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to have to tell me why we spell 
it with AJ when you do the the 

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AKA and not the G, but I'm sure 
we get into that. 

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Just a quick and dirty 
background, but Jerry was a 

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United States Marine Corps 
pilot. 

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We're going to talk a little bit
about his experience there. 

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He got into law enforcement and 
that is now a retired FBI agent.

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And you live in Wisconsin, I 
imagine now is that, is that 

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right? 
Yes, I live in McFarland, which 

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is right outside of Madison. 
At work now. 

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Fantastic. 
And you retired out of the Green

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Bay resident agency, is that 
right? 

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That's correct. 
OK, yes. 

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All right, fantastic. 
So a compatriot of one of our 

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previous guests, Mr. Sheriff 
Mark Rider. 

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Let's launch right into it. 
Where were you born? 

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Where'd you grow up, and what 
led you to the Marine Corps? 

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What sort of brilliance LED you 
there? 

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So I was born in Oak Park, IL 
suburb of Chicago and kind of a 

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normal childhood. 
Thank God technology wasn't 

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around back then. 
We played outside and, you know,

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made sure we came in for dinner 
when the street lights came on 

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and And went to Oak Park High 
School and a lot of my friends 

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ended up going into the military
in various branches, Marine 

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Corps, Air Force, Navy, Army and
I initially applied for an 

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appointment to the US Military 
Academy at West Point. 

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However, I was a bit of an 
underachiever in high school and

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that didn't pan out, which I 
probably wasn't qualified for 

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that, but I did get some 
experience of filling out the 

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various forms and and learning 
about the process. 

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So I initially I end up going to
Elmhurst College because I 

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decided I wanted to play 
football and I certainly wasn't 

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going to be playing Division One
football. 

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And Elmhurst College is a 
Division Three school. 

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And one of my teammates was 
actually in the Marine Corps up 

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to two leaders class program. 
He was a year ahead of me, very 

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squared away guy and he ended up
going out to have a retiring as 

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a Lieutenant Colonel. 
He flew F eighteens and he 

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introduced me to the officer 
selection officer and I started 

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filling out the paperwork and I 
had the this was during the 

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height of the Reagan build up of
the US Marine Corps. 

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Yeah, I was. 
Going to say what, what what 

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specific year if you recall, 
just so we can give people time.

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Frame, yes. 
So this would have been 1984 and

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in fact when I was meeting with 
the officer selection officer 

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they had he told me that he had 
an excess of aviation slots. 

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I initially was going to just 
enlist with the ground contract,

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which was a three-year 
obligation. 

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And he told me if you have 2020 
vision and you can pass the 

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flight physical and the AQTFAR 
test, which was the academic 

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test, which took me two tries by
the way, Fair enough. 

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How many will they give you? 
More than two? 

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If you wanted to, would you give
you? 

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Could you do more? 
Test. 

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He told me you could continue to
take it as many times as 

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necessary, you just had to wait 
six months. 

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OK, the test. 
So that was kind of a humbling 

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experience, right? 
However, I'm still a freshman at

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the time, so you guys a long way
off from commissioning. 

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Oh yeah. 
And yeah, he told me that he had

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all of his ground slots were 
filled and he had people 

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waiting, you know, waiting on 
some additional individuals that

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he could not fill. 
And he said if I can slide you 

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and some others over into 
aviation slots, that'll free up 

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these other ground slots and 
allow me to meet my quota. 

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This is what it this is what 
it's all about for the 

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recruiters, which you don't know
as a fresh vendor or even care 

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about, but it's all about the 
quota. 

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Right, exactly. 
And no, I'm glad I I pursued 

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that path. 
Yeah, you, you nobody, nobody 

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gets pushed into aviation 
Seriously. 

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The other way around. 
Exactly right. 

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I mean that was, you know, the 
times we were living in. 

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In fact, President Reagan was 
pushing for a 600 ship Navy at 

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the time. 
I mean this was, you know, we 

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were still in the midst of the 
Cold War and so times were 

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pretty good. 
And so of course, I had to, all 

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my paperwork changed, so I had 
to resign all the contracts 

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because then your obligation 
extends. 

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It's no longer just a three-year
commitment to the Marine Corps. 

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Sure. 
Was there a specific course of 

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study that you had to engage 
into or do they even care? 

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They did not care. 
How did you maintain a 2 point O

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GPA? 
You could be a digital 

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education. 
This tells us a little bit about

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what was going on at the time. 
That's amazing. 

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I. 
Think the standards eventually 

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changed a little. 
Bit and I think you're right up.

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It to like a 2.5, but of course 
I was a communications major. 

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So probably one of the reasons I
ended up in helicopters and not 

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enough flying jets. 
But so yes, I, I went to officer

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candidate school that the Marine
Corps had the, the platoon 

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leaders class program, which 
gave the, there was the platoon 

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leaders class, PLC junior and 
PLC senior. 

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So it was six weeks for each. 
That's really not the best way 

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to do it because you spend six 
weeks either between your 

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freshman and sophomore year 
college or your sophomore and 

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junior year in college and then 
go back for PLC senior between 

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your junior and senior year in 
college. 

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And then once you finish your 
bachelor's degree is when you 

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get commissioned and then get 
orders to the basic school. 

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Really the better way to do it 
is what's called PLC combined 

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and that's typically between the
juniors here and year of college

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and you get it done all in one 
ten week segment. 

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Yeah, and then you and then you 
actually get enough time to 

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learn something in one and as 
opposed to just getting your 

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butt kicked for a few seconds 
and then forgetting about it, 

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right? 
That's right. 

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In fact, they have a fair amount
of attrition between. 

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There were three companies at 
PLC Junior. 

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By the time you get to PLC 
Senior, there were only two 

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companies because you're really 
not under any obligations. 

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So a lot of guys decide, hey, 
this isn't for me. 

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And they never, they never 
return to go back so. 

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Not you, though. 
You. 

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You made it to the basic course.
Tell me about the basic course. 

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Right. 
So that went to the Basic School

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in July of 1987. 
We had probably about a third of

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our company. 
So we had five platoons, 

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probably 220 lieutenants. 
We had some, including some 

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foreign military officers, and 
about 1/3 of the class had 

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aviation contracts, just to give
you an idea. 

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And we also had about a third of
our class were from the Naval 

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Academy. 
That was a big naval, that was 

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Fox Company, a lot of Naval 
Academy grads. 

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And in fact, when I was there, 
this is kind of my connection to

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the FBI. 
My Uncle Terry was an FBI agent,

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and at the time he was at 
Quantico as a field counselor. 

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Oh, wow. 
That's a Blue Shirts group. 

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Yeah. 
And. 

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And for people who don't know, 
the, the basic school is at 

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Quantico, that's the Marine 
Corps base where it's hosted. 

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So for for every new agent 
that's running around and, you 

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know, living the dream of being 
AGS and a civilian, we get to 

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see these poor bastards who are 
out there in the early 20s, you 

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know, sweating through the 
summer occurrence of the hideous

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pack and just suffering on the 
side of the road looking at a 

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map and having no idea where 
they are. 

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Because what's the rule? 
You can't spell lost without 

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the. 
That's right, yes. 

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I was enlisted, so I would say 
that. 

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So my uncle invited me to come 
over and he gave me a tour of 

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the FBI Academy, and I remember 
thinking that the FBI must have 

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a large budget than the Marine 
Corps does because the facility.

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This is back when the Academy 
was still relatively new. 

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Hogan's Alley was pretty new at 
the time. 

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There was no gate, he just drove
right on to the Academy. 

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This. 
Is like this is like Clarice 

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Starling era though, right? 
I mean. 

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Yes, yeah, I'm trying to 
remember what year that movie 

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was. 
It's. 

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Real close, yeah. 
So you were saying what? 

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What Jodie Foster was running 
around? 

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Then our videos come and go a 
little bit with our connection, 

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but the audio sounds really 
good, so keep on. 

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So you got to go do an Academy 
tour, which was probably 

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interesting. 
Yes, and so and my uncle Terry 

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was, was a kind of a bad ass. 
He had played football at 

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Purdue. 
He worked with the legendary Joe

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Pistone. 
Later on went on to be Donnie 

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Brasco and Terry and and Joe 
were I think first office agents

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down in Miami together. 
Joe went on to work. 

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In fact, I, I had the privilege 
of having dinner with Joe 

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Pistone years later when he was 
up in Appleton doing an 

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undercover, you know, 
gentleman's course. 

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He was doing a safety of 
undercover operations class. 

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I was able to have dinner with 
him and he still travels under 

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an assumed name. 
And you know, he's doesn't have 

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a protection detail or anything 
like that, but he just, you 

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know, takes certain precautions 
because you never know if a 

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younger guy's going to try to 
make a, try to make a name for 

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himself and to take him out. 
So sure. 

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At any rate, years later when I 
went to to the Academy, my suite

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mate had been an Army officer. 
In fact, he was a graduate at 

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West Point. 
And I remember taking him around

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and giving him a tour of the 
Marine Corps basic Quantico. 

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And when we drove through Camp 
Barrett, which is what, where 

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the basic school is, he was kind
of kind of appalled because it 

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was, it's a very Spartan 
facility. 

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That is in fact the the here's 
the gym had a sign that said 

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combat conditioning facility. 
And he asked me, hey, what's 

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that? 
I said, well, that's the gym. 

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He said, why don't they just 
call it the gym? 

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I said I don't know if that's 
Marine speed for gymnasium. 

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That's right. 
Yeah, No. 

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And I've had the pleasure of 
being on all the different 

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bases. 
And I don't know, I'm sure you 

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probably saw some as well. 
But I saw, you know, Army, Navy.

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And I don't know, it's funny 
when an Army guy thinks that the

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Marine Corps bases are rough 
because the Army bases are just 

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run down. 
I always thought they were just 

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trashy. 
I thought the Marines were like 

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sort of purposely hard. 
So I'm OK with that idea. 

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But it was always, and the Navy 
always had a gentle, and the Air

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Force is more gentle than that, 
if that's possible. 

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Well, it's the time the when I 
was at the basic school, the 

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infantry officers course was run
out of double wide trailers. 

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They subsequently built their 
own building, but that's of 

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course they spent almost all of 
their time out in the field. 

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Yeah, yeah, who cares about the 
buildings, right? 

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Trailers, right? 
So, so I left the basic school 

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in December of 87. 
There was a bit of a waiting 

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period to before reporting to 
Pensacola because there was such

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00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:14,360
a backlog at the time. 
And I didn't actually start 

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flight training, what they call 
aviation indoctrination, which 

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is about at the time, I think it
was six weeks primarily in 

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00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,880
ground school, like 
aerodynamics, aircraft engines 

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and meteorology and and, and 
navigation, navigation. 

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And there's a little bit of 
water survival in some PT, you 

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know, the obstacle course and, 
and then after you finish AI, 

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you get assigned to a primary 
squadron. 

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There were three squadrons at 
Whiting Field in Pensacola. 

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And then there was a squadron 
named Corpus Christi, TX. 

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And I think we had about 9 
Marines in our class and they 

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were looking for two volunteers 
to go to Corpus Christi. 

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Well, none of us volunteered. 
We all, I mean, Pensacola is got

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a very nice nightlife. 
We're all bachelors and not 

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00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,640
really looking to leave, so my 
name ended up being drawn out of

227
00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:17,120
the hat to go to Corpus Christi,
which really turned out to be 

228
00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:21,800
kind of a blessing because one 
one thing I didn't realize at 

229
00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,400
the time, but once you get to 
Corpus Christi, you understand 

230
00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,280
that the course rules are much 
simpler. 

231
00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:32,480
We only had two outline fields, 
plus we did touch and goes home 

232
00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:33,120
base. 
Where at? 

233
00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,760
Where at as the students that 
are going through training that 

234
00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:41,040
widening field have to learn 
course rules for probably 15 

235
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:45,040
different online fields. 
So there's different initial, 

236
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:46,920
you know, where do you make your
initial call? 

237
00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,520
What's the altitude? 
What's your ingress route, 

238
00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:52,920
what's your ingress route and 
top of everything else that 

239
00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:54,800
you're trying to learn? 
Yeah. 

240
00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:56,320
Keeping the damn thing in the 
air. 

241
00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,240
Right, exactly trying to, you 
know, memorize an emergency 

242
00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:05,240
procedures and radio calls and 
just regular procedures and then

243
00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,200
there's a lot more volume of air
traffic as well. 

244
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,040
So you're constantly trying to 
see and avoid. 

245
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:14,080
I believe that's N Whiting 
fields, at least at one time, is

246
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,840
the busiest airport in the 
United States in terms of take 

247
00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,080
off from landings because of all
the training that goes on. 

248
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,560
Yeah, corporate sounds like a 
much easier gig, probably, and 

249
00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:24,080
Corpus is not. 
It's not tragic. 

250
00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,160
I mean, it's still Texas, so 
you're in America, so that's 

251
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,280
helpful. 
You could have been somewhere 

252
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:29,640
far worse than that. 
You could have been in 

253
00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:31,000
California for all you knew, 
right? 

254
00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,320
Some sort of? 
Well, I ended up there. 

255
00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,400
That was my hands, my first 
assignment. 

256
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:39,640
Of course it was. 
In the Marine Corps, that's 

257
00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,920
another story. 
So you go through primary and 

258
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:48,520
then at the end of primary 
there's a selection process and 

259
00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:53,600
for Marines to select either 
jets, props, which was C one 30s

260
00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,440
or helicopters. 
And in order to select jets, you

261
00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,320
have to have jet grades. 
And that varies depending on the

262
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:04,400
squadron that you're in. 
And it's based on the number of 

263
00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,480
above averages that you have. 
So every time you go on a 

264
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,600
flight, flight school, there 
might be 30 graded items on the 

265
00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,800
on the evaluation sheet. 
And the first three are always 

266
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:20,760
the same, air work, emergency 
procedures and head work. 

267
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,720
And you either get an above 
average, an average or below 

268
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,800
average. 
And then depending on the type 

269
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,800
of flight that it is will 
dictate what is on that grade 

270
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,880
sheet. 
So if you're doing like 

271
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:37,560
aerobatics, you'll get evaluated
at how well you successfully 

272
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,080
execute an Immelman or a barrel 
roll. 

273
00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,440
And are you doing these? 
You do these in fixed wings and 

274
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:44,960
small fixed wing before you get 
rotor. 

275
00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:51,000
Yes, that's correct. 
Yes, in the T34 now using the T6

276
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,200
Texan, but back then it was 
AT34, which is a very forgiving 

277
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,560
aircraft. 
So yes, you get about probably 

278
00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:05,760
115 to 120 hours of fixed single
engine fixed only time in 

279
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:10,280
primary. 
So every time you go flying, and

280
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,600
I mean you can, when you come 
out of that flight, it's 

281
00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,880
basically reduced to how many 
net above or if it, if you have 

282
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,920
a bad day, how many maybe net 
below averages that you have, or

283
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,080
in some cases might just be 
straight averages. 

284
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,960
And so at the end of that 
process, you know, you they 

285
00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:31,280
evaluate how many, what are your
overall flight grades are. 

286
00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:36,160
So for example, I think at the 
time, the minimum for jet grades

287
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:40,440
might have been like you had to 
have at least 40 net above 

288
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:42,600
throughout the course of the 
training. 

289
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,080
If you're anywhere below that, 
don't you don't even bother 

290
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,920
selecting jets. 
And it would, it would you could

291
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,320
get a bump depending on what 
squadron you were in or you 

292
00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,360
might get a reduction because 
they would they would evaluate 

293
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,480
the sort of the biases of the 
different squadrons. 

294
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,600
And I don't know exactly how how
they figured that out. 

295
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,800
It was to say it wasn't really 
an issue for me because I think 

296
00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:09,760
I ended up I had probably about 
10 that above average, which I 

297
00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:11,440
was fine with. 
Yeah, that's fair. 

298
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,640
It makes it real easy. 
God help you choose that one 

299
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,440
right away, right? 
That's right, yes. 

300
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,280
And, and there is frankly, 
there's a higher attrition rate 

301
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,480
in the, in the jet pipeline, 
primarily when it comes to CQS 

302
00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:31,040
or the carrier flaws that can 
be, you know, the real hurdle 

303
00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:35,560
for, you know, some, some pilots
are, are fine landing on, on the

304
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,960
runway, but they get out to do 
their carrier calls and they 

305
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,760
have to do 5 traps. 
And I think they're given 2 

306
00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,000
opportunities. 
So if they if they don't do it 

307
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,520
on their first day, they have to
come back to second day. 

308
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,800
And traps, we're talking about 
what the trap is about grabbing 

309
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:51,720
the wire is that. 
Correct. 

310
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,480
Yes, OK. 
I'm I'm not a pilot, but I but I

311
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:56,280
did watch top guns, so I know a 
little bit. 

312
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,640
Right. 
That's about the extent of my 

313
00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,600
experience for yeah, it's my the
extent of my experience for 

314
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,400
carrier landings. 
But they have to, yeah, you have

315
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,680
to grab something, right. 
So, OK, so that's, so they get 5

316
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,160
attempts and they got to at 
least get 2 or they're just out 

317
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:12,200
of there. 
They're just washed out on 

318
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,079
there. 
Right. 

319
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,319
So there is, there is a little 
bit of a gamble in that regard, 

320
00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:22,280
although most mostly so there 
are a lot of student naval 

321
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:26,200
aviators that they may have jet 
grades but don't necessarily 

322
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,240
select jets. 
And frankly in the Marine Corps 

323
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:35,240
there wasn't as many jet slots. 
I would say probably 75% of the 

324
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,200
student naval aviators coming 
out of the training pipeline are

325
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,120
going into helicopters. 
That's where the bulk. 70 The 

326
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:45,680
force was was the was the Marine
flying eighteens at that time, 

327
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:47,000
or what were they flying? 
Yes. 

328
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,600
OK, so. 
F eighteens AVAB Harriers. 

329
00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:54,840
Back then, they still had. 
Go ahead. 

330
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,480
Yeah, the the Harriers always 
kind of freaked me out a little 

331
00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,480
bit. 
Right, Yeah, the widow makers 

332
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:09,480
right, that's a good and then OV
10s were were we're still 

333
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,720
recourse the final OV 10s back 
then which is a turbo profit 

334
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,800
that was through the jet 
pipeline got it. 

335
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:21,280
And and then C one 30s for prop 
that was a separate pipeline, 

336
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:26,200
OK, where they flew King Airs, 
they went once they finished T30

337
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:31,720
fours, they went flew the TT 44 
also on a Corpus Vt 28 was a 

338
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,680
squadron there. 
And then the the student naval 

339
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:39,720
aviators that went in The Jets, 
they flew the T2 Buckeye. 

340
00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,880
And then then when they went 
into advance, they flew the 8 

341
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,400
fours. 
I think now they're flying the 

342
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:49,960
T40 fives but they would go 
either to Meridian, Ms. Bee 

343
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,760
Vale, Texas or Kingsville, TX. 
Real garden spots. 

344
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,720
Yeah, everybody's, everybody's 
looking for that. 

345
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,720
But you got into Rotary and you 
ended up flying what I always 

346
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:00,960
thought was a Chinook, but it's 
got a different name when you 

347
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,520
guys fly them. 
Correct. 

348
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,760
Yes, it's ACH 46. 
I have a picture in the 

349
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:09,000
background there. 
I see it. 

350
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,080
Yeah, it's the sea. 
Nice. 

351
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,920
The candle rotor, just like a 
Chinook. 

352
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,480
I mean, however the Chinook is 
considered heavy lift whereas 

353
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,320
the Sage 46 is considered a 
medium left troop transport 

354
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,640
helicopter capabilities. 
Got it. 

355
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,080
So it's got it's, it's basically
a bus that flies, right? 

356
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,800
Exactly, yes. 
In fact, when I went through the

357
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:40,360
Basic School in 1987, we were 
being kind of told that the the 

358
00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:44,920
gouge at the time was that you 
guys are going to be the first 

359
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:50,360
generation of MV 22 Osprey 
pilots because the Osprey was in

360
00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:51,720
the works here, right. 
Exactly. 

361
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:57,040
In fact, one of my classmates 
real squared away gentlemen by 

362
00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,840
the name of Brooks Gruber was 
killed in an Osprey in 2000 in 

363
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,600
Arizona. 
He he started off flying 50 

364
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,680
threes. 
He was AVMI grad and then he he 

365
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,600
transitioned over into the 
Osprey. 

366
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,320
And frankly, the the Marine 
Corps should not have been 

367
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,760
flying those operationally at 
the time. 

368
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,880
I mean they ended up killing. 
A lot of Walgreens. 

369
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,000
Yeah, I was a kid and I I always
remember hearing about those 

370
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:22,920
things and I kept thinking, 
like, what the hell, They keep 

371
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,680
flying those damn things for it 
because you'd hear one rotor 

372
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:27,600
kicked out and the damn thing 
would flip right over. 

373
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,920
And it was terrifying. 
Just even like I like I had 

374
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,760
nothing even at stake at it. 
But I just remember hearing it 

375
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:35,520
in the news and just thinking 
another one. 

376
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,600
And it was always like, you 
know, like War 2, the crew would

377
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,800
go down kind of deal. 
And it just seemed. 

378
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,040
Awful. 
Well, there was a There was a 

379
00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:46,120
lot of the Marine Corps kind of 
put all their chips in one 

380
00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:47,920
basket when it came to the 
Osprey. 

381
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:52,520
And initially all branches I 
think were planning on some 

382
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,120
level of purchase of the 
aircraft. 

383
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,640
The Army ended up backing out, 
as did the Navy. 

384
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,720
The Air Force did, and 
eventually into buying some for 

385
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:01,400
combat search and rescue. 
Sure. 

386
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,320
Yeah, I've got buddies. 
Right. 

387
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,000
The Marine Corps didn't really 
have a backup plan. 

388
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,600
I mean, they, they probably 
would have been better off 

389
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,880
because the Ospreys were going 
to ended up replacing the 40 

390
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,120
Sixes as the primary troop 
transport. 

391
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,360
They probably would have been 
better off maybe buying 

392
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:23,720
Blackhawks, for example, as 
opposed to the Ospreys. 

393
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:30,040
But there was so much pressure 
in, in a lot of the crews like 

394
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,240
that were flying in these 
aircraft that were in fact the, 

395
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:38,880
the Osprey that crashed at the, 
the Potomac Quantico. 

396
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,360
I, I read a book about this 
called the Dream machine. 

397
00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:45,040
I mean, there was several 
indications to the crew that 

398
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,600
they probably should have 
aborted, but the, the crew felt 

399
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,720
a tremendous amount of pressure.
They didn't want to abort 

400
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,200
because there was a 
congressional delegation that 

401
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:54,520
was there. 
They were going to do sort of a 

402
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,040
dog and pony in the 
demonstration, you know, 

403
00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:01,200
transitioning from forward 
flight to helicopter flight. 

404
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:06,360
And they ended up having a fuel 
leak in one of the cells. 

405
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:09,680
And when the when they rotated 
themselves back from forward 

406
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:14,160
flight to helicopter flight, it 
caused a flash fire and one of 

407
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,320
the prop rotors seized up. 
And that's, I mean, that's a 

408
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,040
catastrophic failure. 
I mean, that's, you know, who 

409
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,320
knows how many GS in the 
aircraft ended up flipping into 

410
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,200
the Potomac and there were no 
survivors. 

411
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,680
So there was. 
And in fact, I think when 

412
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:34,960
Rumsfeld, excuse me, Cheney was 
Secretary of Defense, he tried 

413
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,160
to kill the Osprey program, but 
Congress kept it alive because 

414
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:42,200
it was a joint project between 
Bell Helicopter and Boeinger 

415
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,400
tall and they had spread out, 
you know, the contracts 

416
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,480
throughout the country. 
So there was a lot of 

417
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:50,880
constituents. 
People in Congress had 

418
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:55,080
constituents that were drawing a
paycheck from the Osprey 

419
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,880
project. 
I mean, the concept in theory 

420
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,120
sounds good, but they just had 
another one that crashed. 

421
00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:05,440
In fact, Steve Sachs, who the 
famous Los Angeles Dodgers 

422
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,920
second baseman son was an Osprey
pilot. 

423
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,320
He was killed in that crash. 
Yeah, I, I like I say, every 

424
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,000
time I hear one, I'm sure 
there's, there's thousands and 

425
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,480
10s of thousands of safe 
flights, but I've heard enough 

426
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,320
that were bad that it scares the
hell out of me. 

427
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:21,680
And every time I, one of my 
buddies tells me they got at 

428
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,160
them, they always said, yeah, 
you know, you don't remember the

429
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,040
good ones, you just remember the
bad headlines. 

430
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,760
So that's pretty atrocious. 
So, so you got to fly the flying

431
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,400
school bus, you got to fly the 
sea night. 

432
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,040
And how long were you flying 
those? 

433
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:41,080
So I got, I checked into my 
first well before you go to a 

434
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,800
fleet squadron, once you get 
your wings, they send you to a 

435
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,840
training squadron and to get I 
think it's about 60% qualified 

436
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,760
as a, as AH2P or copilot before 
you go to a fleet squadron. 

437
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:57,040
So I, yeah, I checked into 
Tustin, CA, which has since been

438
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,520
closed, which was the at 40 
sixes and 50 threes. 

439
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:06,760
The skids were a Camp Pendleton,
the Huey's and Cobras and it 

440
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,160
really a very nice, very nice 
place. 

441
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,600
I mean, high cost of living, but
I actually wanted the West Coast

442
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:14,720
because I was single at the 
time. 

443
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,360
I had family out there and I 
should back up and say when I 

444
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,160
finished flight school, you go 
through another selection 

445
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:26,280
process and you get ranked and, 
and in my group there were 

446
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,200
twelve of us, 12 Marines. 
The Navy does their own thing, 

447
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,880
and I remember I was ranked nine
out of 12, so I'm thinking the 

448
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,960
odds of me getting anywhere near
my first choice are probably 

449
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,560
pretty remote. 
They're like a classic Marines. 

450
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,280
They're like a Marines Marine, 
right? 

451
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,000
You're you're meeting the 
standard. 

452
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:44,920
You're not. 
You're not making anybody look 

453
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:46,080
bad. 
Yeah. 

454
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,680
Just happy to be here. 
Eat the crayon if you need to. 

455
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,920
Just. 
That's right. 

456
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:52,360
These are my favorite Marines, 
by the way. 

457
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,080
They always end up getting to 
get the most work done too. 

458
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:58,240
Well, yeah, there's something to
be. 

459
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,320
Said about that, in fact. 
Transitioning to the FBI. 

460
00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:06,600
Have heard some of the old time 
agents say the best FBI agents 

461
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,680
were C students. 
I think there's some truth. 

462
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,480
For that, Well, I think, yeah, I
think there is too. 

463
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,640
I think we could probably we 
could flesh that out, but let's.

464
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,760
OK, so you're stationed in 
California. 

465
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,680
Yeah, we'll get in and we'll get
the law enforcement momentarily.

466
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,360
And what is skids? 
You said skids earlier. 

467
00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:25,240
What the heck is a skid? 
So the H1 Whiskey Cobras and the

468
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:26,720
Huey's. 
OK, so those. 

469
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,120
Are the skids, Yeah. 
Whereas the 46 and the 53 had. 

470
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,960
Yeah, well, the landing gear 53,
right. 

471
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,520
They actually have a track. 
OK, OK, OK. 

472
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,760
So, yeah, so for those of us who
who are not rotor heads, we got 

473
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,320
to understand skids. 
OK, That's that's they've got 

474
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,400
the skis on the bottom to land 
on for folks. 

475
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,400
That's that's all right. 
Got it. 

476
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,000
What do they always say skids 
are for kids? 

477
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:49,720
Is that the is that the joke 
they give? 

478
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,040
I know I've heard it, but it's 
not my thing. 

479
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:54,320
It's just I've just been around 
enough. 

480
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,400
OK, fair enough. 
Kids are for kids. 

481
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,480
Yeah. 
Well, and the, and the probably 

482
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:04,080
the sexiest, if you will, for, 
for helicopters was, was Cobras.

483
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,400
I mean, that was usually the top
performers in flight school in 

484
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,480
the HTS, which is the 
helicopters helicopters training

485
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,120
squadron. 
They were, they were going for 

486
00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:16,160
Cobras typically because it's a 
gunship. 

487
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,360
But you know, in some cases 
those are guys that maybe want 

488
00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:22,760
The Jets, not a primary. 
And they didn't get jets because

489
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,800
needs of the Marine Corps and 
you're going to go fly 

490
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:30,160
helicopters and you know, it's 
it's all good. 

491
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,800
I mean, you're getting paid to 
fly. 

492
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,880
I mean, it's hard to complain 
about that, right? 

493
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,520
Right. 
It's hard to complain. 

494
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,360
You're catching, yeah, you're 
catching all your hours and it's

495
00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:40,240
getting you got a marketable 
skill when you get out, if you 

496
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:41,400
want it and that kind of thing, 
right? 

497
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,880
Right. 
So I was fortunate though, even 

498
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,600
though I was ranked nine out of 
12. 

499
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,240
Well, actually, so the way they 
do the selection process is 

500
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,840
this, you know, signature Marine
will come in and he puts up on a

501
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,520
whiteboard like how many Cobra 
slots there are, how many Huey 

502
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,000
slots. 
Back then they had 53 DS, 53 

503
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:07,880
echoes, NCH, 40 sixes and then 
East Coast, West Coast or 

504
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,960
Hawaii. 
And so you make your top choice 

505
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:16,760
in aircraft, your top choice for
coast and then you can decide 

506
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,320
what's more important, coast or 
aircraft. 

507
00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:23,040
I mean, some some guys may want 
to go to the West Coast and 

508
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:24,320
maybe they want to fly 50 
threes. 

509
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,200
But if there are no 53 slots, 
I'll take the 46 slot. 

510
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:32,000
Some guys want aircraft. 
So I had 40 sixes as my first 

511
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,280
choice in aircraft and West 
Coast is my first choice 

512
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,720
location. 
And when when we got done with 

513
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,200
this process, by the time it 
came to me, there were no West 

514
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,840
Coast lots left. 
So I figured, OK, I'm going to 

515
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,920
be going to New River to fly 40 
sixes. 

516
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,560
And by the between the time we 
did our selection and the time 

517
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,480
we actually got our orders, 
something had changed. 

518
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,360
And I actually, I, when I saw my
orders, I thought, hey, maybe 

519
00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:56,920
somebody made a mistake. 
Should I say something? 

520
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,000
So I didn't say anything. 
That's right. 

521
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,280
I'm sure the numbers changed or 
whatever. 

522
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,680
I did end up on the East Coast, 
so before I got out. 

523
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,720
But my, you know, my situation 
changed. 

524
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,920
I got married and had a child. 
Yeah. 

525
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,720
So I was in Tustin. 
I went to, I finished my 

526
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:19,760
training at the training 
squadron in April of 1990. 

527
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,960
I went to my first squadron 
which is HMM 163 the Ridge 

528
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:29,840
Runners and and at the time the 
squadron was deployed out to 29 

529
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,640
Palms OK, which was only about 
an hour away, a helicopter 

530
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,400
flight. 
So I went out there and within, 

531
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:42,040
I was out there I think about 5 
days and another copilot came in

532
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:46,040
after me because this is a 
period of transition and we were

533
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,680
going out the next day to fly a,
a three hour sortie. 

534
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,560
And typically we fly about 1.5 
and before we have to refuel 

535
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,320
unless we have internal tanks. 
So it's not a lot of endurance. 

536
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:02,400
And we're, we're doing a, a gun 
shoot for the crew chiefs and 

537
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,000
the door Gunners with the, 
there's door mounted 50 calibers

538
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,720
on the starboard and port side 
of the aircraft. 

539
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,880
And they have ranges out there 
with like plywood targets or old

540
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,360
hulks. 
And it gives them out. 

541
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,200
There's a certain art form to 
that because when you're flying 

542
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,240
along in 80 knots, they'll try 
to walk the rounds up onto the 

543
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,560
target and then there's a little
bit of Arc in the rounds. 

544
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,360
So those guys get to be pretty 
good at it. 

545
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,240
But and that you can't do that. 
You can't Pendleton, you can't 

546
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,680
do that at camp with you. 
You have to go out to 29 palms 

547
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,400
or maybe out. 
You can do it out when you're 

548
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,200
out to sea and throw targets in 
the water and stuff. 

549
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,080
And then the plan was to come 
back, top off our tanks and then

550
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,840
we're doing it like a company 
sized troop lift. 

551
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,920
And there were 246's and Chapter
53. 

552
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,600
And when we took off, it was 
we're trying to exercise radio 

553
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,560
discipline. 
And the, you know, the signal 

554
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,760
that the aircraft were ready to 
go is when the ramps came up. 

555
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,280
So our crew chief that day was 
Master gunnery Sergeant is a 

556
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,400
Vietnam vet. 
He was a maintenance chief. 

557
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,000
He would typically fly like once
or twice a month. 

558
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,880
So he would, he'd continue to 
get his flight pay and. 

559
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,640
Just currency flights, but not 
but not yeah. 

560
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,080
Right, and there's a I'm getting
to a point. 

561
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:16,880
I know you are. 
I know something. 

562
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,640
Something's about to happen. 
So we, we took off and I think 

563
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,280
we're flying it's like 200 feet 
in the aircraft commander, 

564
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,520
because our our vision is 
somewhat restricted from 3:00 to

565
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,840
9:00 behind the aircraft. 
So we rely a lot on the crew 

566
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,200
chiefs for that. 
And he asked the crew chief how 

567
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,320
the flight was doing. 
And that's, we're going to be 

568
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,360
Sergeant Silva top Silva got on 
the ICS and very calm said, hey,

569
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:47,160
Sir, your, your wingman just 
crashed in the, in the LC. 

570
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:53,720
And so we, we started to peel 
around and the aircraft, it 

571
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,040
looked like someone had taken a 
Ginsu knife and slice the 

572
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,040
aircraft in half, like right at 
what we call the 410 station. 

573
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,280
Because the F section of the 
aircraft was sticking in the 

574
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,880
ground at about a 45° angle. 
And then the forward section hit

575
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,720
the ground and, and rolled over 
because they don't, you know, 

576
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,720
just landed on the nose wheel 
and then it rolled over and see 

577
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,000
shrapnel from the rotor blades 
because they had, they had a de,

578
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,240
what they call a desync or 
desynchronization. 

579
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:21,480
Of course, we didn't know what 
caused it. 

580
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:26,800
Thank God there was no fire and 
we kind of, we just landed there

581
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,480
and stood by in case we needed 
to do a medevac over the main 

582
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,040
side. 
And there were Marines that were

583
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,640
kind of running out to drag 
their fellow Marines away from 

584
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,720
the wreckage. 
And fortunately nobody was 

585
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,640
killed. 
The crew chief ended up, I think

586
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,920
he broke some vertebrae in his 
back because he was on a 

587
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,560
gunner's belt. 
He wasn't strapped in. 

588
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:48,960
He got bounced, banged around 
pretty good. 

589
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:50,720
All the Marines, though, were 
strapped in. 

590
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:57,000
The copilot, I remember it was 
his very first flight and he was

591
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,760
in the left seat. 
And I went to, when we went to 

592
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,920
visit him at the hospital, he 
kind of had a deer in the 

593
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,800
headlights look. 
And I said, and I was brand new 

594
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:08,560
too. 
And I was kind of in shock 

595
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,160
because the other guys in the 
squadron that have been around 

596
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,720
were kind of nonchalant about 
the whole thing. 

597
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,240
And I was wondering, does this 
happen very often? 

598
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:18,600
Right. 
That's a good question. 

599
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,080
Yeah, if everybody's OK with 
this. 

600
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:26,040
Yeah. 
So I asked him what happened and

601
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,760
he said he had no idea he was on
the controls. 

602
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,880
He said we took off and the 
helicopter, it's kind of 

603
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:33,600
counterintuitive. 
You have to actually lower the 

604
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,800
nose and start pulling 
collectives to gain altitude and

605
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,560
airspeed. 
What happened was he said we 

606
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,920
just had an uncontrollable nose 
up. 

607
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,840
He pushed the cyclic forward, 
which is natural reaction. 

608
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,080
Nothing happened. 
I mean, they were just so long 

609
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,040
for the ride and that's when 
they hit the ground and what 

610
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,880
they what they determined later 
on what had happened was that 

611
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,720
the helicopters have 
transmission. 

612
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,520
So there's a forward 
transmission in a tandem motor 

613
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:01,920
aircraft and an aft 
transmission. 

614
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,800
And then there's a 
synchronization shaft that runs 

615
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,720
between the two to ensure that 
because they counter rotate 

616
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,240
right to ensure they're at the 
same RPM or what they call NR. 

617
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,360
And the aft transmission had 
shipped the bed so that the 

618
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,440
engines were fine. 
But the they started bleeding 

619
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,320
turns. 
So just like when you turn off a

620
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,400
fan, there's still inertial 
energy in there. 

621
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,400
It's still going to turn, but 
it's starting to slow down. 

622
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,680
Well, their forward rotor was at
100% NR. 

623
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:29,960
That's what keeping that nose 
up. 

624
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,520
And now they no longer have the 
same NR. 

625
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,560
So that's when the rotor blades 
basically, because they they 

626
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,880
overlap and the rotor blades 
just, they're designed to break 

627
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,400
their honeycomb, the fiberglass,
whatever they're designed to 

628
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,560
break up. 
And you know, the only thing 

629
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,240
that saved them is that they had
just taken off. 

630
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,600
They're probably only 30 feet 
off the ground maybe and they 

631
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,520
had been at 200 feet. 
There wouldn't have been any 

632
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,120
survivors and there's no 
emergency procedure for that. 

633
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,320
No, that's failure. 
That's just catastrophic 

634
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,360
failure. 
Yeah, it's so wild. 

635
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,120
So that was kind of my, my, my 
rude awakening, although at 

636
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:06,800
least I wasn't on that aircraft.
Like keep the bonus for the guy 

637
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:08,520
that was in that crash was named
Keith Schofield. 

638
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,880
And of course his call sign 
became Crash. 

639
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,199
Yeah, well, that's not a, that's
not a call sign you want, but 

640
00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:14,520
that's what you earn, I'm pretty
sure. 

641
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,000
But the CEO gave him, because 
when you go into a squadron, 

642
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,920
it's the same way in the Navy. 
I'm sure Mark had a variety of. 

643
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,159
Mark Ryder had a variety of 
collateral loonies when he was 

644
00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:28,800
in the Navy. 
Yeah, as pilots or air crew, you

645
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,199
always have a ground job or 
collateral loonie. 

646
00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:34,840
In fact, that's typically how 
you get your evaluations are 

647
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,639
done from your fitness reports. 
And so they, the CEO kind of 

648
00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:42,480
gave Keith, threw him a bone 
and, and they sent him to 

649
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:48,800
Monterey, CA for aviation 
safety, aviation safety officers

650
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,440
course, which typically is kind 
of a plum assignment. 

651
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,080
Monterey is beautiful and, and, 
but that's, that's a really good

652
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,560
school and that's a, it's an 
important job to have in the 

653
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,320
squadron's BBA. 
So yeah, I did. 

654
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:06,120
I did 1 deployment with HMO 163 
and it's right kind of on that 

655
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,760
tail end of Desert Storm. 
So the shooting war ended in 

656
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:15,120
March of 91. 
We deployed in May on the USS 

657
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,560
Pella Loop. 
We're part of an amphibious 

658
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,680
ready group with the Pella Loop 
is a flagship and we there were 

659
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:26,080
three other ships. 
And so we have a battalion of 

660
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,080
infantry Marines and what they 
have, what they call the ground 

661
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,760
combat element, aviation combat 
element and the combat service 

662
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:38,400
support element. 
It's about I think 2000 Marines 

663
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,880
or so and it's kind of like 
America's 9114. 

664
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,600
So there's always at least one 
East Coast MU and one West Coast

665
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,400
MU out on deployment ready to 
respond, you know, whether it's 

666
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:53,200
a non combatant evacuation 
operation or humanitarian crisis

667
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:54,800
or an embassy rescue or 
something like. 

668
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:56,600
That and that. 
Did you guys go float to the 

669
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,760
Persian Gulf or where were you? 
Yes, yes we did. 

670
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:04,480
In fact, we even though the war 
was over, we had to have a 

671
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,000
presence there to enforce the UN
sanctions for the Gator squares 

672
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,760
in the Persian Gulf for three 
months. 

673
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,640
What's Gator squares? 
I don't know what that. 

674
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:17,040
Is just kind of, you know, just 
circling around and I mean 

675
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:22,120
occasionally the grunts might do
like a joint operation with the 

676
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,840
Kuwaitis, you know, like a 
training operation or something,

677
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:29,320
but no shots fired in anger. 
We did have a stop on the way 

678
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:35,360
where Mount Pinatubo had erupted
in the Philippines and and it 

679
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,440
was pretty devastating. 
So we the Pella loop pulled in 

680
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,520
all the grunts on ask the ship 
and what happened was that the 

681
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,840
volcano had erupted and then 
they had monsoon type brains 

682
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:51,200
that kind of waited the ash down
and they had roof collapses and 

683
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,200
stuff. 
And the the grunts, I felt bad 

684
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:55,720
for them. 
I mean they were out digging ash

685
00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:57,200
and stuff. 
And then we ended up on the 

686
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:02,400
pedal that we ended up taking on
board dependent U.S. military 

687
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,720
dependents from both Clark Air 
Force Base and Subic Bay Naval 

688
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:08,040
Station. 
I mean literally the little kids

689
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,920
with their pet dogs. 
I mean pregnant women and just 

690
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,400
carrying whatever they. 
Just total, total humanitarian 

691
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,280
mission. 
Yeah, in our their houses were 

692
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,640
destroyed. 
And then we we ended up we 

693
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,560
pulled out and we steamed for 
probably six hours and then the 

694
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,880
ship anchored and then we were 
flying in by helicopter to Cebu.

695
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:31,080
And then the Air Force was sort 
of running the manifest 

696
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:36,040
operation in taking the names of
these people and putting them on

697
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:37,640
like C fives and then flying 
them back. 

698
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,080
Coconis. 
In fact, we kind of joked around

699
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,320
at the time because the Air 
Force guys were staying in 

700
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,360
hotels. 
Yeah, that's what happens. 

701
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,080
That's how that's how you do the
Air Force. 

702
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,640
As an Air Force guy, I was 
enlisted, so I was always like 

703
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,200
in the crap barracks with them. 
But like the officers, they 

704
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:54,480
definitely had a pretty good 
gig. 

705
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,080
I don't know how that works out 
always like it doesn't matter 

706
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:58,160
what year it was. 
They are always. 

707
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,400
In hotels well, I would tell you
whenever we did it cross 

708
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:07,560
country, we'd always plan to 
stay on Air Force bases because 

709
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,880
the facilities were best on that
like we stayed at Shepherd Air 

710
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:14,320
Force Base or whatever we try to
find billening and but at any 

711
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:19,160
rate the Marines that were based
at Cebu were sleeping on cots, 

712
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,040
you know, no, that's no big deal
That's that's what they're paid 

713
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:24,960
to do That's right. 
There was a little, there was a 

714
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,440
little bit of animosity though, 
I think because the Air Force 

715
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,480
guys were leaving, you know, 
going back to their hotel, 

716
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:37,080
whatever 6 or 7 at night. 
And some, some one of the Marine

717
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:42,360
infantry lieutenants put up a 
big sign and it says U.S. 

718
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,800
Marine Corps welcomes you to 
stay Blue Island. 

719
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,640
And the story I heard was that 
an Air Force major came by and 

720
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,000
he kind of got Hacked Off and he
says this is an Air Force 

721
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,280
operation. 
So the Marine took his little 

722
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,560
ballpoint pen out and he put and
US Air Force, which you could 

723
00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,680
barely see. 
And then he posted a car on the 

724
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:01,040
side. 
That's about right. 

725
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,880
And then and then when it was 
all said and done, I mean, the 

726
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,080
Air Force had brought in a bunch
of cots and they just left them 

727
00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:10,160
apparently. 
I don't know if anybody had to 

728
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,480
sign from, you know, gear adrift
as a gift, right? 

729
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:17,240
So we ended up taking a bunch of
these cots back-to-back to the 

730
00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:20,640
pellet, but we actually thought,
first of the time when you only 

731
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,240
have one or two ribbons, you're 
like, hey, are we going to get 

732
00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:25,880
the humanitarian servicemen? 
That's right, yeah, You got to 

733
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,480
build your rack. 
Right, right. 

734
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:30,320
Let's get down to the real 
important thing. 

735
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:31,960
You're going to have to stand in
front of other people, and 

736
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:33,360
you're going to have to tell 
them what you did with your 

737
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,440
service. 
Can I get another ribbon and 

738
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,000
plus and you and you didn't 
start off the way that, you 

739
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,360
know, when I when I went in, 
everybody started off with, you 

740
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,200
know, the G Watt. 
And then if you went 

741
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:44,640
Expeditionary, obviously you got
others. 

742
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:46,840
But yeah, so there was a little 
bit lighter. 

743
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,680
You probably just had your, 
your, your, your starting to 

744
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,440
basic and maybe and maybe a 
marksmanship or something. 

745
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,120
Yeah. 
The Firewatch Ribbon. 

746
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,440
The National Defense. 
Yeah, the National Defense, 

747
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,680
that's for. 
I got one. 

748
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,280
Call that the Firewatch. 
Yeah, I got 1. 

749
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,160
Of those too, and. 
The Sea Service Deployment 

750
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,840
Ribbon, she's a, you know, you 
could tell a lot about a guy 

751
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,000
though. 
When you see a guy with, you 

752
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,200
know, if he's got like 3 or 4 
stars, you say, OK, that's a guy

753
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:13,440
that's done a lot of deployment 
too. 

754
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,200
We used to joke they should call
it the sea service divorce 

755
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,280
rhythm. 
Yeah, that's a good one. 

756
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:19,520
That's about right. 
So. 

757
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,520
Yeah, and then it probably also 
results in like, interesting 

758
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,880
weird tattoos and stories about 
the hookers and foreign boards 

759
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,360
and all that kind of thing, too.
Right. 

760
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,920
Yeah. 
Well, so then, yeah, we got back

761
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:39,600
from that deployment in November
of 91 and I found out within 

762
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,640
probably a week or so that that 
I was getting orders to to the 

763
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,000
grunts, which is a little bit 
unusual. 

764
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:52,080
Typically as a new pilot, do at 
least two years in a Squadron 2 

765
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,280
deployments at least at that 
time before you're going to 

766
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,240
either go to like a career level
school or maybe go down to 

767
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,760
Pensacola to be a flight 
instructor or to go to go to the

768
00:41:02,240 --> 00:41:06,600
the ground side of the house. 
At the time, all of our captains

769
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,280
had orders, they had taken care 
of business. 

770
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,840
And you know, I don't resent 
them for doing that. 

771
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:17,320
In fact, I enjoyed my time with 
the with the grunts, but I ended

772
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:22,560
up going to Coronado for a 
three-week tactical air control 

773
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,400
party school. 
So basically you learn about 

774
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,360
initially they teach you about 
artillery and mills and 

775
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:35,400
everything and then 9 lines and 
calling in air support and 

776
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,120
wholesale support for maneuver 
units. 

777
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,440
And it was a, it was a, it was a
fun school. 

778
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,160
I mean, we spent like 4 days out
of 29 Palms, but we weren't 

779
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,200
staying in the field. 
We got flown out in the morning.

780
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,120
We brought lawn chairs and 
coolers sitting on the OP. 

781
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,120
And then you just waited for 
your turn. 

782
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:55,560
And then, I mean, we had like 
priority. 

783
00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:00,120
So I mean, we not only had 
Marine air, but we had a 10s 

784
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,800
come out and F fourteens. 
It was awesome. 

785
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:08,760
You know, and you do your 9 
lines and and coordinate with 

786
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,000
the artillery because they 
simulate like a surface to air 

787
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:14,440
threat. 
So you got to do C ADS 

788
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:15,920
suppression of enemy air 
defenses. 

789
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,440
And then back then it was before
J dams. 

790
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,720
I mean, you're, so you're 
basically trying to mark target 

791
00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:27,760
with 81 like with Willie Pete 
bounds or white phosphorus 

792
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:29,600
rounds. 
So you're working with a forward

793
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,600
observer who's relaying the grid
and then your job is to try to 

794
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,760
make an adjustment. 
If that round is right on 

795
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:37,640
target, you're telling them the 
pilot give them a kernel 

796
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,960
direction and a correction. 
You know from the mark 50 meters

797
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:43,200
to the north, that's your 
target. 

798
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,520
Old school, walking it in. 
Old school, yeah, just relying 

799
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,600
on their skills and then so I 
got done with that school and I 

800
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,720
I got orders to. 
Now do they, do they, do they 

801
00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:56,120
want to send guys like you there
because you had a, an aviation 

802
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,560
background or was there other 
guys that had nothing, you know,

803
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,360
no air time? 
Yeah, that's a good question. 

804
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,840
In order to qualify for, it's a 
secondary MOS, In order to 

805
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,080
qualify for the secondary MOS, 
you have to be either a naval 

806
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,400
aviator or a naval flight 
officer. 

807
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:18,920
OK, So most of the guys in the 
class were pilots, but we did 

808
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,320
have we did have some infantry 
guys. 

809
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,160
And why why not? 
I mean, they should know those 

810
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,360
skills as well and. 
Yeah, they're getting, they're 

811
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,720
getting way better about I mean,
these days everybody gets a 

812
00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:29,880
little better at it. 
I, I almost took an A low 

813
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,520
position in the Air Force, which
was a air liaison officer, very,

814
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,320
very similar idea. 
And I and I don't know if I told

815
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:36,920
you this, but I was an air 
traffic controller when I was 

816
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:41,160
going through with with with the
goal of being AJJ TAC. 

817
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,280
So being a joint terminal attack
controller, very, very similar 

818
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,320
type work. 
So just more aircraft? 

819
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,480
Yeah, a little. 
Couple couple more aircraft you 

820
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,560
could touch at the same time, 
but but still it's a really 

821
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,480
powerful skill that you know and
obviously it's a lot of fun 

822
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,560
telling the guys up in the sky 
what to do and then watch them 

823
00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:59,440
do it and then see things go go 
boom. 

824
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:04,160
On the other hand, especially if
you could do it in your lawn 

825
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,560
chair, what a what a good deal 
to be able to come out there. 

826
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,480
And yeah, I got you. 
We got to your unit. 

827
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,960
It wasn't quite the same thing, 
but, but I went to first 

828
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,720
Battalion, 9th Marines and that 
was our brown combat element 

829
00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:18,680
when I was on the pallet. 
So I already knew a lot of the, 

830
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:21,240
a lot of the infantry officers. 
I got to know him on our 

831
00:44:21,240 --> 00:44:25,760
deployment. 
And ironically the the facts 

832
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,120
they're So the battalion has 2 
facts and then an air officer. 

833
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,520
The fact Ford air controller. 
Right forward air. 

834
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,560
Control, I always break it down 
because otherwise I just get 

835
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:36,960
comments and people just go 
like, I liked hearing what you 

836
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:38,720
said, but I have no idea what 
you're talking about. 

837
00:44:38,720 --> 00:44:40,600
South, we'll break it down. 
So forward air control is the 

838
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:41,880
job we were just talking about 
there. 

839
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,520
Correct. 
But the guys that we replaced 

840
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:51,160
really kind of had shitty 
attitudes and it made us look 

841
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,080
like golden boys. 
I mean, we walked in there. 

842
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:55,120
Not that we were anything 
special. 

843
00:44:55,240 --> 00:44:59,360
Myself and Greg Glasser, in 
fact, his Greg's older brother, 

844
00:45:00,720 --> 00:45:04,000
he was an FBI, he was a Navy 
SEAL, he was a plank holder for 

845
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,080
the hostage rescue team and of 
course he was the FBI. 

846
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,760
So the brothers kind of just a 
strange coincidence. 

847
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:11,280
McGregor and I went in there as 
facts. 

848
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:15,840
We've been in 163 together and 
you know, we we enjoyed it. 

849
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:17,920
I mean we had fun with it. 
Of course we didn't have to. 

850
00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:22,200
It was a non deploying tour but 
they thought we were great just 

851
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:23,800
because. 
It's always, yeah, it's always 

852
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:25,560
good when someone lowers the 
expectation. 

853
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,920
You come in there and just all 
you got to once again, you were,

854
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,080
you were in the right spot. 
You just, you went in there and.

855
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,800
Right, right. 
And there are a lot of weird 

856
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:36,840
interesting parallels, I feel 
like too, when it comes to like 

857
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:38,960
why people got to the Bureau and
how they got there. 

858
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:42,320
Strange, strange, overlasting 
their life. 

859
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:44,240
It wasn't the first time that 
they ever crossed paths. 

860
00:45:44,240 --> 00:45:45,440
And so it's kind of interesting 
too. 

861
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,320
I think everybody, like not 
everybody obviously, but a large

862
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,560
number of people I meet have a 
lot of weird, Oh, I did this 

863
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:54,760
thing and I crossed paths and 
this guy's brother was there, 

864
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:56,280
you know, legacy or whatever it 
was. 

865
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,600
But all right, so you had a non 
deploy, non deploying tour. 

866
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:01,480
Everybody loves you. 
That's always a good spot to be 

867
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,480
in. 
And this is prior to you guys. 

868
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:07,280
Is this before you went East 
Coast or that East Coast? 

869
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,440
Kind of an interesting sidebar 
though, when I was with 19 is 

870
00:46:11,720 --> 00:46:18,920
the riots, the Rodney King riots
came up for the four LAPD 

871
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,360
officers. 
And I remember it was on a 

872
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,080
Wednesday and we we actually, I 
was at a mess night and I was 

873
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,080
driving back from the mess 
night, which is sort of a 

874
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,120
formal. 
Yeah, tell yeah, explain that 

875
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,320
for people who don't know what 
it is because I have AI have a 

876
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,000
concept from knowing a lot of 
marines, but. 

877
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,800
Right, So the Marine Corps has a
dining in and then they have a 

878
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,360
mess night and the dining in is 
when you bring your spouse and a

879
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,880
mess night. 
It's when it's just the Quebec, 

880
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,880
there weren't any females since 
it's been an infantry battalion.

881
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,880
It, I don't know remember if 
there's any special occasion for

882
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,120
it, but we had this mess night. 
And I remember driving back 

883
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,680
home, we were living in that I 
was married. 

884
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,080
I got married by then and we 
were living in San Juan 

885
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:01,880
Capistrano, north of Camp 
Pendleton. 

886
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:06,120
And I was hearing on the radio, 
I thought all this rioting 

887
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:09,800
taking place in South Central LA
and Compton and Long Beach. 

888
00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:14,080
And of course I got home and my 
wife was watching it on TV and I

889
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,880
just kind of joked. 
I said, well, we're right down 

890
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:18,560
I5, they should just give us a 
call. 

891
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:20,800
We can put a stop to this in a 
heartbeat. 

892
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,440
And sure enough that, so I went 
into work the next day, which 

893
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:29,760
was a Thursday, you know, just 
kind of a normal work day. 

894
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,360
We're in the office, we're kind 
of watching what was going on on

895
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:34,560
TV. 
And then on Friday we came into 

896
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:38,800
work and we had a regimental 
formation that it was already on

897
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,880
the calendar. 
It wasn't anything to do with 

898
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,880
the rioting, you know, So the 
regimental commander comes out 

899
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,120
and they do reenlistments and 
promotions and attaboys, that 

900
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,400
type of thing. 
And he tells us, tells the 

901
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:55,040
regiment that, hey, I just got 
off the phone with some general 

902
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,200
and he said we're going to be 
deploying First Battalion, First

903
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:03,120
Marines up to Tustin as a 
staging area for follow on 

904
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:07,360
assignment to South Central Long
Beach. 

905
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,640
Who knows for the riots. 
So that was kind of surreal. 

906
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,040
And I was in it. 
I was in the sister battalion, 

907
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:17,960
but my boss, the OPSO told me, 
hey, you're going with one, one 

908
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,360
because our battalion was in 
reserve. 

909
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,880
So I was going to be the advance
party in case our battalion got 

910
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:27,080
activated and to secure like 
building and stuff like that, 

911
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:30,840
the logistical type of stuff. 
So I remember we had this 

912
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:34,960
massive motorcade going north on
I-5 and they and that California

913
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:38,160
Highway Patrol shut it down. 
I mean, at least the northbound 

914
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:39,520
side of it. 
That was bizarre. 

915
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,720
I mean, I've never seen anything
like that and then did. 

916
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,680
You shut down the five is that. 
They shut down the northbound 

917
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:47,800
side of it. 
Yes, that. 

918
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:50,240
I mean, so traffic was still 
going southbound and people were

919
00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:51,440
beeping their horns and 
everything. 

920
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,720
It was seemed to be very 
supportive and we got to Tustin 

921
00:48:56,040 --> 00:49:00,600
and we're just, they were the 
Marines were doing like crowd 

922
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,200
control drills and stuff. 
I mean, these are all 311 

923
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:05,440
infantry Marines. 
They weren't necessarily trained

924
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,240
in this. 
It's part of a Museak mission. 

925
00:49:08,240 --> 00:49:11,840
So they had some exposure to it,
but they were just waiting for 

926
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,760
ammunition because they they 
hadn't been issued ammunition 

927
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,960
camp just to to actually go up 
into South Central. 

928
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:20,960
So eventually ammunition was 
issued. 

929
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:25,080
We proceed up to South Central. 
I was assigned as as a watch 

930
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:29,200
officer in Compton, which is 
where the Crips and the Bloods 

931
00:49:29,720 --> 00:49:31,560
got started. 
Weird. 

932
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:35,280
What a weird assignment. 
Yeah, and it was funny because I

933
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:39,640
did some ride alongs, like with 
one of the one of the sergeants 

934
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,280
from Compton PD and he was just 
laughing his ass off because the

935
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:45,720
Marines actually dug. 
Like if they found a little bit 

936
00:49:45,720 --> 00:49:47,360
of grass they were digging 
fighting holes. 

937
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,400
Yes. 
In an urban environment and. 

938
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:57,480
They got DFPS in some poor 
bastards yard. 

939
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:00,600
Exactly right. 
And they were. 

940
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:02,160
So it was, but it was martial 
law. 

941
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,840
There was a curfew in place and 
they had checkpoints set up. 

942
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,000
Yeah. 
And they, I mean, they they were

943
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,000
sending out Marines, like 2 
Marines. 

944
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,360
They would show up the roll call
and the officers are coming for 

945
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,200
a roll call and you know, they 
say, hey, you're taking and 

946
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,840
Lance Corporal Schwanke Talley 
and Lance Corporal Jones with 

947
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,520
OK, great. 
So they get back in the back of 

948
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:26,640
the squad and but they're 
rolling out just, you know, 

949
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:29,640
regular patrol work and you know
that. 

950
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,360
So I used to hear about some of 
the stuff as a as a watch 

951
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,200
officer. 
And for example, there was an 

952
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:38,800
incident where these officers 
got dispatched to a domestic and

953
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,520
the cops are kind of brief in 
the Marines and route they go, 

954
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:43,160
Hey, this guy's a frequent 
flyer. 

955
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,040
You know, we've been to his 
house many times. 

956
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:50,040
So why don't you guys just, you 
know, they they got up to the 

957
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,000
apartment. 
And so you guys just kind of 

958
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:53,720
hang back here and you can cover
us. 

959
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,000
Well, cover means something 
different. 

960
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:58,240
The Rifleman then it comes to a 
police officer. 

961
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,680
So the the two officers go. 
And this is in California. 

962
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,040
So it's a warm planet. 
They go up the stairwell. 

963
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:05,840
You know, it's an external 
stairwell. 

964
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:09,400
The guy was on the 2nd floor. 
They knock on the door, Compton 

965
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:11,600
police. 
Well, the guy takes a shot with 

966
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:13,720
a shot shotgun through the front
door. 

967
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:15,760
Now, luckily, they were stay out
offset. 

968
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:17,120
They're standing off to the 
side. 

969
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:18,720
So they beat feet down the 
stairs. 

970
00:51:18,720 --> 00:51:20,040
Hey, we got to barricade a 
subject. 

971
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:21,400
Now they're going to call for 
backup. 

972
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:26,720
And as they're descending the 
staircase, these Marines open 

973
00:51:26,720 --> 00:51:29,840
fire. 
They're in a kneeling position 

974
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,440
by the squat. 
And because the cop came back, 

975
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:38,200
you said cover, pop, right 
cover, cover by fire, 

976
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:42,920
suppressive fire. 
And the guy, he had his kids in 

977
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:46,400
there and his girlfriend. 
Unfortunately, the the 

978
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:48,920
trajectory of the rounds were 
going up, so nobody was hit. 

979
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,960
This guy, believe me, he's ended
up surrendering in a heartbeat. 

980
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,520
Yeah, he just experienced a very
different reaction than what 

981
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:56,920
maybe he thought was coming 
down. 

982
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:58,760
Not typical, yeah. 
No. 

983
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:00,280
And which we we'll talk about 
I'm sure. 

984
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:03,520
But yeah, when it gets down to 
like law enforcement reactions 

985
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:07,640
versus military that yeah, there
is no cover fire in law. 

986
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,880
Enforcement, I mean, but the cop
came back. 

987
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:16,720
He had a little bit of shrapnel 
from the, like, the door store. 

988
00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:19,840
So he came back. 
In fact, he told me he was an 

989
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:21,880
Air Force veteran. 
He said, hey, can you track 

990
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:22,920
that? 
Because he kind of lost. 

991
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:25,400
We got separated. 
He goes, can you track down 

992
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,040
those two more beats for me? 
I said, yeah, I think so. 

993
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:29,800
And he goes, hell, he's like, 
that was awesome. 

994
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:35,480
Hey, you told them they're 
Marines. 

995
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:36,600
They're going to do what they're
told. 

996
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:38,200
That's the thing, right? 
That's the best part. 

997
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,400
God, that's funny. 
There was another incident where

998
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,440
these officers got into a foot 
pursuit and it was at night and 

999
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:50,480
one of the marines had a 2O3 on 
his M16 is like 2O3 like a 

1000
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,320
little grenade. 
Yeah, single grenade. 

1001
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:56,400
Launch Yeah. 
And he he fired a like a White 

1002
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:58,800
Star. 
Yeah, like a flag around in the 

1003
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:00,400
air. 
Like a Vietnam, like something 

1004
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:04,000
you see in Vietnam and, and his 
cops are like, where'd that come

1005
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:07,720
from, you know? 
Hey, you got the tools, you 

1006
00:53:07,720 --> 00:53:09,040
might as well light up the. 
Area. 

1007
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:13,720
Yeah, it was, it was kind of fun
because and then the, you know, 

1008
00:53:13,720 --> 00:53:16,400
the cops are like, hey, things 
have gotten real quiet because 

1009
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:19,720
we hope you guys aren't leaving.
Of course, I think some of the 

1010
00:53:19,720 --> 00:53:23,040
brass started to get a little 
bit nervous because, you know, 

1011
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,280
we have active duty military 
getting involved, the domestic 

1012
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,600
law enforcement. 
Yeah, definitely, definitely an 

1013
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:31,560
interesting line to have crossed
at that point. 

1014
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:33,800
I mean, and, and I'm sure it was
warranted at the time because I 

1015
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:37,440
know things were out of control,
but yeah, not, not, not exactly 

1016
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,800
the mission set that those guys 
were trained for, so. 

1017
00:53:40,240 --> 00:53:42,960
But it, it's evidence when this,
when the rioting was happening 

1018
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,320
in 2020, you know, my wife 
brought this up and she said, 

1019
00:53:46,720 --> 00:53:51,320
hey, they, you know, this 
happened in, in 1992 in 

1020
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:54,920
California and active duty 
military was brought in and it 

1021
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:57,520
put a pretty a stop to it pretty
quickly. 

1022
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:00,080
If they had the political will, 
they could have done that again.

1023
00:54:00,720 --> 00:54:03,560
What's weird is that so I I was 
marching around in the streets 

1024
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:06,560
in 2020 in DC and they brought 
in the National Guard, but they 

1025
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:08,200
weren't armed. 
And you talk about digging 

1026
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:10,720
fighting holes like they they 
stacked sandbags, which is also 

1027
00:54:10,720 --> 00:54:12,480
like, I'm a big fan of that. 
I think that's great. 

1028
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:15,560
It looks legit. 
They had the Deuce and the halfs

1029
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:19,200
out there parked on every corner
in DC, but it didn't make any 

1030
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:21,640
bit of sense. 
And then they put a bunch of FBI

1031
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:25,480
agents who are about the most 
undisciplined human beings and 

1032
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:29,200
the most like just slapdash, you
know, uniform combinations of 

1033
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:31,880
body armor and also the crap, 
you know, some people have gun 

1034
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,200
belts and some people have 
whatever, you know, they're 

1035
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:36,720
carrying in their purse. 
And we, we went out there and, 

1036
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:38,320
and marched around like a bunch 
of dummies. 

1037
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,000
So it wasn't nearly as, as 
regimented. 

1038
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,640
I'm, I'm confident if they put 
the Marine Corps into DC, it 

1039
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:45,280
would have been a very short 
ordeal. 

1040
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,480
And Antifa guys would have 
changed their tune right away. 

1041
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:49,000
They would have been throwing 
bricks at anybody. 

1042
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,760
But but, yeah, like you say, 
political will was a big deal 

1043
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,120
And, and the optics have changed
dramatically. 

1044
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:59,120
And, and honestly, the other big
thing was, is that there wasn't 

1045
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:00,760
news coverage hanging out with 
you guys there. 

1046
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:02,560
And not everybody had a cell 
phone to tape it. 

1047
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:06,520
So people, you know, if people 
remember the environment, it was

1048
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:09,640
like, you know, there was a lot 
of permissibility because there 

1049
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:12,160
wasn't like anybody was going to
find out other than that poor 

1050
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:15,000
bastard who got, you know, a 
couple of M16 rounds blasted 

1051
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,240
through the top of the ceiling. 
Right. 

1052
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:23,200
Well, back then, California 
actually had a Republican right 

1053
00:55:23,240 --> 00:55:25,440
by the name of Pete Wilson. 
I remember Pete Wilson, you 

1054
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,080
know? 
Kind of a conservative, I mean 

1055
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:30,760
those California's kind of a 
lost cause now, but that's. 

1056
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:33,160
Yeah, well, people forget. 
I mean, Reagan was the governor 

1057
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:34,960
of California before he was 
president. 

1058
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:37,160
So like, you know, you talk 
about the most staunch right 

1059
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:40,200
wing president prior to maybe 
Trump even in a lot of ways. 

1060
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,040
And that person was Ronald 
Reagan and he ran State of 

1061
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:46,240
California. 
And that was kind of a, you 

1062
00:55:46,240 --> 00:55:49,160
know, it's, it's in my lifetime 
that, that, that sea changes 

1063
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:50,280
happened, which is kind of 
funny. 

1064
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:52,240
So, yeah, I don't think people 
were as worried about it. 

1065
00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:55,040
And it's pretty funny that, 
that, that, that was the route. 

1066
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:57,600
All right, so let's, let's try 
to get let's get to our law 

1067
00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:00,520
enforcement piece if we can. 
I, I, you briefed me through how

1068
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:03,360
you got the East Coast and then 
where you started in the PD. 

1069
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:09,560
So if you, as I was ending up my
tour at 19, I was, you know, set

1070
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:13,920
for orders to go back to a 46 
squadron. 

1071
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:18,200
The monitor, that's the guy that
is at the Headquarters Marine 

1072
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:20,960
Corps and, you know, sort of 
controls assignments as a 

1073
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:22,880
company grade monitor, field 
grade monitor. 

1074
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:25,560
They want the ground officers 
for aviators and stuff. 

1075
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:30,560
And, you know, at the time he 
said, well, if I send you back 

1076
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:33,400
the Tustin, I can't guarantee 
that you're, you know, going to 

1077
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:36,080
go back to a squad or you might 
end up at the group, which is 

1078
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:39,880
kind of a basically flying desk.
And so I said, well, what about 

1079
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:41,800
the New River? 
What about the East Coast? 

1080
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:45,360
And he said, well, not only will
I guarantee you'll be in the 

1081
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:47,680
squatter and if you go to the 
East Coast, I'll cut your orders

1082
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:50,480
early. 
So not that I was looking to 

1083
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:53,880
leave, but it wasn't like I was 
going to deploy with 19 anyway. 

1084
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:58,480
So I, I checked in the New River
in January of 93, went to 

1085
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:05,200
refresher training and I was 
assigned to HMM, 266. 

1086
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:09,040
And I was a whistleblower there,
which is we don't need to get 

1087
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:14,720
into that, but there was a back 
when, you know, I don't know if 

1088
00:57:14,720 --> 00:57:17,000
whistleblowers are really a 
thing, but they had a program 

1089
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:20,360
and Naval aviation called the 
Any Mouse program. 

1090
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:26,600
And we had the CEO like was 
really, I think pretty unstable.

1091
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:28,600
And I thought he for sure he was
going to get some Marines 

1092
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,880
killed. 
And so anyways, I end up coming 

1093
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:33,760
forward. 
I initially made the complaint 

1094
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:38,960
anonymously and in order to kind
of give it some substance, there

1095
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:40,520
was an investigation that was 
launched. 

1096
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:42,120
I came forward, I gave a 
statement. 

1097
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:45,560
Needless to say, it was removed 
from that squadron and I went to

1098
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:51,160
another squadron and I finished 
up my time and I got out in 

1099
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:57,960
September of 94 from H1264. 
And then I didn't really do a 

1100
00:57:57,960 --> 00:57:59,720
very good job planning for 
transition. 

1101
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:02,400
My wife and I both from 
Illinois. 

1102
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:09,040
We moved back and I had friends 
of mine that were local like 1 

1103
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:11,480
friend of mine was a Chicago cop
and a couple guys that were 

1104
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:15,320
coppers in the suburbs and it 
was always departments that were

1105
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:18,920
hiring and I. 
I worked for a private security 

1106
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:22,160
company for a few months. 
I started testing with different

1107
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:26,040
police agencies and in Illinois 
they have a veteran's preference

1108
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:30,400
for police and fire jobs, so it 
didn't take long to get hired. 

1109
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:32,880
In Illinois, you don't have, you
don't put yourself through the 

1110
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:34,560
Academy. 
You get hired by an agency, they

1111
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:36,440
sponsor you so. 
Yeah, I think that's how it 

1112
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:37,960
should be too. 
Yeah. 

1113
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:41,280
I know it's different in 
different states, but I cannot 

1114
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:43,880
imagine, you know, like they 
should. 

1115
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:45,920
If they want you to be an 
employee, they got to pay to go 

1116
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:47,640
get the screening for that. 
It's specialized. 

1117
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:50,320
Right, exactly. 
And it's not like it has any 

1118
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:52,040
other function. 
It's not like you could go do 

1119
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:53,920
anything else once you could get
that training. 

1120
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:56,960
Yeah, they do it a little 
differently here in Wisconsin, 

1121
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:01,840
but at any rate, I and then I so
I was working for us, you know, 

1122
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:06,040
kind of a small and we had like 
36 sworn it was on the line 

1123
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:07,800
Illinois. 
It was in Lake County suburb of 

1124
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:13,360
Chicago just doing patrol work. 
But it was a good foundation for

1125
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:17,760
learning how to talk to people, 
learning about elements of 

1126
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:21,720
crimes, writing reports. 
We're going to come, we're going

1127
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:22,760
to come back and talk about 
that. 

1128
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:25,040
I, I, I guarantee it. 
Because I feel like that's the 

1129
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:27,640
thing that we're missing in so 
many ways. 

1130
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:31,280
Specifically the words, knowing 
how to talk to people. 

1131
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:34,280
I find that to be like, it's a 
critical skill. 

1132
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:38,320
I'm sure you found when you were
working in the Bureau, but I 

1133
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:40,080
don't know. 
You got out, what, 17? 

1134
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:43,440
Is that right? 
So you were getting out as I 

1135
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:45,320
was, you know, just hitting the 
field offices. 

1136
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:49,240
But I found a surprising lack of
that sort of just basic skill 

1137
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:51,360
set. 
Not scared to go talk to a 

1138
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:53,240
stranger and have a weird 
conversation. 

1139
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:55,840
So, OK, so you're out there. 
You're riding patrol. 

1140
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:57,040
How many? 
How long did you do that? 

1141
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:02,840
So just a little over a year. 
I finished the Academy in May of

1142
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:07,120
95, like right before Memorial 
Day, and then I worked. 

1143
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:13,560
You know, from that point until 
like July 12th of 96, because 

1144
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:15,240
that's when I got my offer 
letter from. 

1145
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:17,680
Yeah, yeah, I was in the 
background. 

1146
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:21,000
I was applying. 
I applied to Secret Service US 

1147
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:25,720
Marshals BEAFBI because I knew I
had seven years of military. 

1148
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:29,160
I knew I could, you know, buy 
that time back, right, Right. 

1149
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:32,120
Like I said, my uncle had been 
an FBI agent, so I had a little 

1150
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:34,160
bit of exposure to it. 
So was that your? 

1151
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:35,640
Preference. 
Or did you have a preference 

1152
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:38,360
based on mission and and work? 
Did you? 

1153
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:40,560
Did you care one way or another,
or what did it matter? 

1154
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:44,880
Well, the FBI was my was my 
first choice. 

1155
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:47,880
In fact, when I, when I was 
going through the process with 

1156
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:51,560
the Secret Service, I had the 
Secret Service interview first. 

1157
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:55,960
And, you know, so that was a 
good exposure for when it came 

1158
01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:57,920
time to do the FBI interview 
because their interview was 

1159
01:00:57,920 --> 01:00:59,520
somewhat someone's panel 
interview. 

1160
01:00:59,920 --> 01:01:04,120
But I remember my wife was kind 
of reminded me at the time that 

1161
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:06,280
this is when Clinton was 
president, I was no fan of Bill 

1162
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:07,800
Clinton. 
She says, are you crazy? 

1163
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:10,600
You want to go into an agency? 
And I said, well, by the time I 

1164
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:13,080
get there, won't be in office 
anymore. 

1165
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:15,920
But she reminded me that, well, 
former presidents get 

1166
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:17,480
protection, too. 
That's right. 

1167
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:21,160
And, you know, that seems like 
an important point. 

1168
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:22,560
Yeah. 
Such a good idea. 

1169
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:23,320
Yeah. 
For life. 

1170
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:26,200
All of them do, right? 
Right, that's an. 

1171
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:29,080
Interesting thing. 
You know, and it's funny because

1172
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:31,720
at the time I had this 
perception that there was going 

1173
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:35,320
to be a long shot to get into 
the FBI, you know, because you 

1174
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:38,320
have this perception that it's 
this really elite. 

1175
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:41,120
Yeah, because you, you, I mean, 
what the hell, you don't know. 

1176
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:43,520
Right until you get to. 
The yeah. 

1177
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:45,640
And then you see all the the 
booger readers that are next to 

1178
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:46,800
you and you're like, oh, you're 
just like me. 

1179
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:50,400
That's why we're all cute. 
Right, right, I'll tell you. 

1180
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:52,360
I'll tell you a funny. 
Story Let me let me put a pause 

1181
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:53,880
for one second. 
I'm going to pause the the 

1182
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:55,840
recording folks, because I'm 
going to put a charger on. 

1183
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:58,760
I failed to charge this laptop 
up and then we're going to pick 

1184
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:03,080
up with FBI Academy. 
Story So give me one SEC all 

1185
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:06,040
right so you probably can't even
tell folks Oh yeah we had to do 

1186
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:08,440
a quick pause here and get some 
power back on all right so 

1187
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:10,280
here's something kind of funny 
what we're sitting in the FBI 

1188
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:12,960
Academy we're looking through 
and I know everybody kind of has

1189
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:15,640
a similar experience because 
I've talked to enough people 

1190
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:17,760
over the years someone's running
through and they're telling 

1191
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:20,360
their backgrounds and where they
came from right the back story 

1192
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:21,480
and how'd you get here and all 
and. 

1193
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:22,520
Who are you and where'd you go 
to? 

1194
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:23,480
School and all that kind of 
thing. 

1195
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:26,720
And they got to me and I, 
everybody was talking it up, you

1196
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:29,840
know, like I was up, I was an 
Apache helicopter pilot and I 

1197
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:32,840
went to West Point and, you 
know, came out as a major and 

1198
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:34,240
all sort of stuff. 
And, you know, I was in charge 

1199
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:36,360
of the SWAT team and there's 
this and all this kind of thing.

1200
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:39,680
Eight years law enforcement. 
So I'm, I'm 35 years old, so I'm

1201
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:41,080
close to the oldest guy in the 
room. 

1202
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:44,920
And you know, I was in the top 
three or four oldest people 

1203
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:48,080
there. 
And they get to me and you know,

1204
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:51,080
I go, you know, I'm Kyle Sarah 
and I went to the University of 

1205
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:54,320
Oklahoma and my last job, I was 
a stay at home dad with them 

1206
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:56,920
kids. 
And then I sat back down because

1207
01:02:56,920 --> 01:03:00,160
I didn't have a job before. 
Like like in between showing up 

1208
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:02,120
like I, I basically quit 
whatever else I was doing. 

1209
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:03,320
I was working at a hospital a 
little bit. 

1210
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:05,520
And you know, so I didn't I 
didn't want to give any back on 

1211
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:07,240
people looking over and everyone
else, you know, like he was 

1212
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:12,040
telling, you know, he ran a a 
Bureau in in Venezuela doing, 

1213
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:13,960
you know, for the Washington 
Post and all of the New York for

1214
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:15,880
the CIA, like all these other 
guys, they're all telling the 

1215
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:17,160
cool guy stories. 
And I thought like, what would 

1216
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:19,800
be the most interesting thing 
other than just going like the 

1217
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:22,440
most low key weird answer? 
And they they. 

1218
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:25,280
Go. 
You didn't say what your degree 

1219
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:27,320
was in. 
And I stood back up and I go, I 

1220
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:29,440
have a multidisciplinary degree.
It was in. 

1221
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:30,600
It's exactly what it sounds 
like. 

1222
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:32,560
And I sat back down and they 
just then they were done with me

1223
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:33,640
and they didn't know what else 
to do. 

1224
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:36,120
And they went back to talking 
about, you know, being a stud in

1225
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:38,520
law enforcement and working for 
Dallas PD and whatever else. 

1226
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:41,200
And it goes down the line. 
But yeah, you everybody think, I

1227
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:42,720
mean, and everybody looks good 
on paper. 

1228
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:44,720
And then you put them onto the 
test and we're all, you know, 

1229
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:47,640
we're all kind of in the same 
category of skills, except the 

1230
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:49,480
people who've never touched a 
gun before, which we can. 

1231
01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:52,680
That, that always blew my mind. 
I don't know if you had those in

1232
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:54,840
your class, but that, that was 
the weirdest thing I'd ever 

1233
01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:56,840
seen. 
That blew my mind. 

1234
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:02,240
It's funny because when I was in
the Marine Corps Quantico, there

1235
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:06,960
was this perception that the FBI
Academy was full of like, hot 

1236
01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:09,200
women. 
Well, yeah, because you're, 

1237
01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:11,400
you're a bunch of, you're around
a bunch of booger eaters, right.

1238
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:12,200
Like what else? 
Like that? 

1239
01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:15,120
Like that had to be, well, that 
had to be what was going on 

1240
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:16,160
there, though. 
Like that's where they were 

1241
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:18,280
keeping all the women. 
Right, exactly. 

1242
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:22,440
Tell each other. 
Tell each other fairy tales of 

1243
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:24,560
what's going on behind the other
side of that building over. 

1244
01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:26,160
There, right. 
Yeah, that. 

1245
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:27,880
That was not your experience is 
what you're saying. 

1246
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:29,680
I don't think there's probably a
lot of women in your class not. 

1247
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:32,480
Really. 
In fact, you know, there was 

1248
01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:35,440
guys I knew that were going 
through like the Expeditionary 

1249
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:38,440
warfare school in 96 when I was 
going through the kind of guys I

1250
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:41,560
knew from the Supreme Court. 
And I sort of had to, you know, 

1251
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:44,680
debunk that. 
Oh, you know, that's terrible. 

1252
01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:46,400
You took you took their 
fantasies away. 

1253
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:48,640
What, how? 
How big was your your? 

1254
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:56,520
Quantico class ballpark, I think
we had 46 and 50 was the Max. 

1255
01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:59,480
So that that was it during that 
time frame. 

1256
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:01,880
I mean they were starting a 
class like every two weeks. 

1257
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:05,760
This is you know, so I was in 
9620, we started in August of 

1258
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:07,480
96. 
Yeah. 

1259
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:11,960
I mean there was most of, I mean
50 is the maximum I think that 

1260
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:15,320
they can put it in class. 
So I think, I think we had 46. 

1261
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:17,840
And, and you've been through 
flight training, you've been 

1262
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:20,360
around Marines, you've gone 
through a police Academy at this

1263
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:22,240
point. 
How did the, how did Quantico 

1264
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:24,400
rank to that? 
I mean, how did it stack up 

1265
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:25,520
against that kind of training 
for you? 

1266
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:33,080
Well, it wasn't really very 
challenging. 

1267
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:35,080
I mean, I used that. 
I don't know if they did this in

1268
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:37,240
your, in your class. 
I mean, some of the training was

1269
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:40,000
good, like a legal training. 
I I thought, I thought it was. 

1270
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:42,800
What was his name? 
His name was John Hall. 

1271
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:45,160
He was an excellent. 
In fact, I think Mark Crider 

1272
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:46,800
talked about him A. 
Little bit, I believe so. 

1273
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:48,920
Yeah, I think you're right. 
Just an excellent instructor, 

1274
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:55,320
but I remember I think it was 
like week 8 where there was like

1275
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:59,520
the intermediate PFT in the 
legal exam, which which was 

1276
01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:03,880
supposed to be challenging, and 
then then the firearm squad for 

1277
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:07,040
hangar qualification. 
SO33 possible weed outs right? 

1278
01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:12,240
Yeah, it and some of the they, 
you know, I don't know if this 

1279
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:14,680
was in every class, but they 
said, well, this is hell week. 

1280
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:21,240
No, it's not, not even close. 
I mean no, no idea what a like 

1281
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:23,000
hell week is. 
But no. 

1282
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:27,160
But but, but it's fair to note 
that for people who had no other

1283
01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:29,520
experience, and I don't know if 
they were bringing an attorney 

1284
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:31,560
straight out of law school when 
you were going through that 

1285
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:34,880
class, if you so, yeah. 
So the Bureau loves accountants 

1286
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:37,000
and they love lawyers. 
And some of them are awesome. 

1287
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:40,400
Like there's some really like 
like gun toting attorneys that I

1288
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:42,280
always thought was, I think 
that's really cool. 

1289
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:44,280
Like if you come out of that 
background and you come in and 

1290
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:45,920
you're and you have the same 
kind of interest as me, that's 

1291
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:48,400
neat, right? 
But there's also some, like real

1292
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:53,400
weak, not aggressive, sort of 
gentle souls that come in 

1293
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:56,440
through that program. 
And yeah, so this Quantico is 

1294
01:06:56,440 --> 01:06:57,720
the hardest thing they probably 
ever did. 

1295
01:06:58,240 --> 01:06:59,960
Yeah. 
You know, and then, and then, 

1296
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:01,240
and then we're sleeping through 
it. 

1297
01:07:01,240 --> 01:07:03,120
You know, you're, you're getting
9 hours of sleep and you're 

1298
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:04,960
getting, you know, three round 
meals and then you're going, 

1299
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:07,080
man, that's pretty good. 
I guess square meals is what 

1300
01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:08,400
they say, right? 
Three squares, right? 

1301
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:13,160
Yeah, well, my roommate was was 
one of those guys. 

1302
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:17,080
He was like 26 years old. 
He he was a law school graduate 

1303
01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:23,280
but never practiced law. 
He was, I think, like a valet in

1304
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:26,200
a restaurant parking cars. 
Really good guy though. 

1305
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:29,680
And then we were partners for 
DT. 

1306
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:33,400
And then when we did the boxing,
he had been a Golden Gloves 

1307
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:36,240
boxer like in Pittsburgh. 
At least he'd been hit in the 

1308
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:38,520
face in his life. 
So that's a, that's a yeah. 

1309
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:40,680
He was by his son, yeah. 
That was kind of a public 

1310
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:43,440
because the only we did a little
bit of boxing in the Marines, 

1311
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:45,920
but it was just, you know, knock
em, sock em robots. 

1312
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:48,240
It wasn't really any sort of 
technique or anything, right? 

1313
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:51,520
So in fact, I still keep in 
touch with him. 

1314
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:54,320
He's he actually, he's retired 
here in Wisconsin now, but. 

1315
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:57,720
Yeah, boxing against someone 
who's got a real boxing 

1316
01:07:57,720 --> 01:08:00,440
experience is not. 
It's not fun if you're not good.

1317
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:05,760
No, and I'm sure he held back a 
little bit, really embarrassed. 

1318
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:08,360
Well, I'll tell you something 
kind of sad. 

1319
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:10,400
We had a, we had the, you know, 
the padded rooms. 

1320
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:12,680
So for people that don't know, 
they pad up somebody's room, 

1321
01:08:12,680 --> 01:08:14,440
they give you combatives in 
there and stuff like that. 

1322
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:17,560
And the old Quantico, they used 
to do a bull in the ring, which 

1323
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:20,479
I want to have you explain 
because most people, you know, 

1324
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:21,840
my, my air, they, they took it 
out. 

1325
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:24,319
They didn't do that anymore, 
which I think is atrocious. 

1326
01:08:24,680 --> 01:08:27,040
But the closest thing we could 
get, we had this little gal and 

1327
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:30,319
I, I called her the, I had some 
funny name for her dragon lady 

1328
01:08:30,319 --> 01:08:31,920
or something. 
She was a little Asian gal. 

1329
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:34,439
She was real sweet, but she was 
tiny. 

1330
01:08:34,439 --> 01:08:38,160
I mean, she was like 5 foot 25 
foot 1, you know, weighed about 

1331
01:08:38,160 --> 01:08:41,800
112 lbs. 
And they, they paired us off for

1332
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:43,640
some kind of things. 
You know what a push kick is? 

1333
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:47,520
You basically, you basically 
plant your foot on somebody and 

1334
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:49,680
you send them back with like 
just a straight, like, yeah, 

1335
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:51,479
it's, it's for distance. 
It's not for impact. 

1336
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:53,920
And so she, you know, we're 
doing push kicks or something 

1337
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:55,479
stupid. 
And, and, you know, I'm backed 

1338
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:56,880
up against the wall. 
They were teaching how to like, 

1339
01:08:56,880 --> 01:09:00,000
get out of a scenario with like 
all the Quantico combatives are 

1340
01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:00,920
kind of silly. 
I think. 

1341
01:09:01,319 --> 01:09:04,359
So anyway, this poor girl, she 
comes up and she goes, you know,

1342
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:07,479
are you going to push kick me? 
And I go, you know, yeah. 

1343
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:10,439
And she goes, how hard are you 
going to push? 

1344
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:13,000
And I was like, not very hard. 
Like I'm not going to, I'm not 

1345
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:14,880
going to knock you out. 
Like you don't weigh very much. 

1346
01:09:16,319 --> 01:09:19,479
So so I push kick her and you 
know, she kind of stumbles back 

1347
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:21,720
5 or 6 feet and she gets into 
the fighting stance and comes 

1348
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:23,560
back. 
And so they go, OK, and she 

1349
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:27,600
goes, how hard was that? 
You know, and I go about 10 or 

1350
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:31,800
15% and she goes, would you bump
it up to 50? 

1351
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:34,240
And I go, I don't, I don't feel 
comfortable doing that. 

1352
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:37,479
And she goes, I need to feel 
it's really important. 

1353
01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:41,200
And I go, all right, and so, you
know, the next time they go 

1354
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:42,520
like, you know, I push or 
whatever. 

1355
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:45,359
And so I push her and she leaves
her feet, obviously, and she 

1356
01:09:45,359 --> 01:09:47,240
goes flying into one of the 
pillars that they have. 

1357
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:49,000
It's all a thing. 
And she slid down like a 

1358
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:50,680
cartoon, like she splatted 
against it. 

1359
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:54,800
And then and she got it. 
And she goes, was that 100? 

1360
01:09:56,040 --> 01:09:58,960
I go, no, it's just a gentle 
kick. 

1361
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:01,400
But thank God she experienced 
that because it's like, you 

1362
01:10:01,400 --> 01:10:03,200
know, if you don't experience a 
little bit of physical 

1363
01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:05,000
difficulty in these things, I 
think it's really dangerous that

1364
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:08,600
you carry a gun and we're trying
away from that. 

1365
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:10,920
I mean, obviously yours was 
going to be more physical than 

1366
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:12,320
mine, and mine I thought was a 
joke. 

1367
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:14,000
And obviously you thought yours 
was a joke as well. 

1368
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:16,600
So but getting punched in the 
face is always good. 

1369
01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:18,760
So tell about the bowl in the 
ring, just so people know what 

1370
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:22,600
that is. 
Well, when you're standing in 

1371
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:27,080
the center and you're surrounded
by your classmates and they'll 

1372
01:10:27,080 --> 01:10:29,600
call somebody out or call 
multiple people out, it's kind 

1373
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:31,200
of a fun. 
Remember, it's kind of a sumo 

1374
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:32,760
thing, trying to come out of the
ring. 

1375
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:35,880
And, and it's, and it's kind of 
like a survival thing, like you 

1376
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:38,920
got X number of minutes, you're 
running out the clock like so 

1377
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:40,720
when I was when I was in the Air
Force. 

1378
01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:45,560
Box drill, yeah, but it's not as
not as stressful as a box drill 

1379
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:48,240
if you have a hood off over your
face and then you know you have 

1380
01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:50,400
to deal with whatever you're 
confronted with when they pull 

1381
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:51,320
the hood off. 
But go ahead. 

1382
01:10:51,480 --> 01:10:54,000
Yeah, well, I mean when we were,
when I was in the Air Force, 

1383
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:56,920
they always told us when we went
to, I went to Fort Bragg for a 

1384
01:10:56,920 --> 01:11:00,880
little while and they said, you 
know, welcome to Fort Bragg. 

1385
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:04,000
It's home of the largest St. 
gang in the world, you know, the

1386
01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:07,760
82nd Air Warren. 
And they said, you know, 2 

1387
01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:10,320
service members get in a fight, 
you know who wins. 

1388
01:11:11,360 --> 01:11:13,960
And the answer is who's ever 
spread show up first? 

1389
01:11:14,440 --> 01:11:16,680
And the bowl in the ring is kind
of a kind of an experience like 

1390
01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:17,840
that. 
It's like, can you hold your own

1391
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:20,280
long enough that your buddies 
can get there? 

1392
01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:22,760
Because whoever's friends show 
up like the most number of 

1393
01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:25,040
people in the fight wins. 
That's pretty much how it works 

1394
01:11:25,160 --> 01:11:27,400
with with rare exceptions. 
If Chuck Norris is your buddy, 

1395
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:28,320
then it's a little bit 
different. 

1396
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:30,200
Obviously you can do the 
sidekick thing and take 

1397
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:32,720
everybody out. 
But yeah, unless you're a Ninja 

1398
01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:35,160
Turtle or Chuck Norris, the most
number of friends wins. 

1399
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:37,320
So anyway, bowl in the ring. 
They used to people and and 

1400
01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:39,600
people always cry about that 
that I talk about now they're, 

1401
01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:41,800
you know, between our 
generations. 

1402
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:44,480
Like they're just like so hard. 
You know, they punch you right 

1403
01:11:44,480 --> 01:11:47,440
in the face. 
It's like, I guess you never 

1404
01:11:47,440 --> 01:11:49,520
upset me. 
Yeah, you never upset anybody in

1405
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:50,520
your life. 
Maybe that would have been a 

1406
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:52,000
good experience for you earlier 
on. 

1407
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:55,440
So you had you had the some that
didn't shoot guns. 

1408
01:11:55,440 --> 01:11:57,400
You had good legal. 
That sounds like that's pretty 

1409
01:11:57,400 --> 01:11:58,920
much consistent. 
I think everybody talks about 

1410
01:11:58,920 --> 01:12:02,280
that orders night, same kind of 
things, everybody else. 

1411
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:05,960
Yeah. 
Everybody gets the drunken 

1412
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:11,600
monkeys in the dartboard. 
Yes, and I think most people 

1413
01:12:11,600 --> 01:12:14,720
got, you know, something within 
their like top five. 

1414
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:19,160
You know, we had people that 
were from New York that have 

1415
01:12:19,160 --> 01:12:22,120
going back to New York and they 
seem, you know, seem fine with 

1416
01:12:22,120 --> 01:12:26,360
that. 
You know, I I was trying to stay

1417
01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:30,840
in the Midwest and, you know, 
Milwaukee division was my second

1418
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:32,440
choice. 
I actually had Chicago was my 

1419
01:12:32,440 --> 01:12:34,240
first choice. 
Thank God I didn't get that, but

1420
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:36,800
that was, yeah, you probably. 
You try to dodge the bullet 

1421
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:38,960
there. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

1422
01:12:39,480 --> 01:12:42,600
You know, and my wife wanted to 
go back, you know, because all 

1423
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:44,040
her family is there and 
everything. 

1424
01:12:44,040 --> 01:12:49,240
But. 
And then when there was a guy 

1425
01:12:49,240 --> 01:12:51,880
that was in the class ahead of 
me that also had Milwaukee and 

1426
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:56,320
we had a, we were told to call 
the SAC and he was going to 

1427
01:12:56,320 --> 01:12:59,440
decide where we were going to go
because there was an opening in 

1428
01:12:59,440 --> 01:13:01,160
Green Bay. 
And then there was back then we 

1429
01:13:01,160 --> 01:13:05,000
had a there was drug squads. 
This is all obviously before 9 

1430
01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:06,800
above them. 
He said I have an opening on the

1431
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:09,200
drug squad in Milwaukee and then
we have an opening up in the 

1432
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:13,800
Green Bay already. 
And this Steve O'Reilly was the 

1433
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:15,520
other guy. 
He ended up going to Chicago and

1434
01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:18,840
had a distinguished career. 
But he I didn't really have a 

1435
01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:21,240
preference one way or another. 
And he said I'd rather go to 

1436
01:13:21,240 --> 01:13:23,360
Milwaukee. 
I said, you know, that works for

1437
01:13:23,360 --> 01:13:25,320
me. 
And thank God he did that 

1438
01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:28,200
because going to Green Bay was a
great assignment. 

1439
01:13:28,200 --> 01:13:29,680
I mean, we're away from the 
flagpole. 

1440
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:32,720
We had an Indian Reservation up 
there and I knew you had, you 

1441
01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:37,440
did some Indian Country work and
it, you know, the front office 

1442
01:13:37,440 --> 01:13:39,760
left us alone. 
I mean, yes, you do. 

1443
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:41,600
You get called in the whole 
hours of the night and 

1444
01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:44,040
everything, but it's not, 
there's not a lot of whodunits. 

1445
01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:47,520
You know, the, you know, the 
volume of cases is pretty high, 

1446
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:52,040
but they're not very complex. 
And it's like the regular police

1447
01:13:52,040 --> 01:13:53,760
work. 
It's transactional, yeah, 

1448
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:56,000
transactional work, right? 
It's interesting. 

1449
01:13:56,000 --> 01:13:58,680
So, and I think this is worth 
exploring for people because 

1450
01:13:59,240 --> 01:14:03,000
everybody always says the FBI 
like it's a monolithic entity, 

1451
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:06,560
but but it's not, it's not an 
entity like that. 

1452
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:09,680
It it's a lot of weird little 
carve outs with a bunch of 

1453
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:12,000
fiefdoms. 
And then within those fiefdoms, 

1454
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:15,720
there's these outposts and, and,
and obviously Green Bay is 1. 

1455
01:14:15,720 --> 01:14:17,560
How many ages do you have in 
Green Bay? 

1456
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:20,400
You. 
Think 4/4 you have four, Yeah. 

1457
01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:24,320
That's a pretty good size. 
Yeah, that's outstanding. 

1458
01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:26,600
Yeah, it was. 
That's a tiny. 

1459
01:14:26,600 --> 01:14:28,440
OK. 
So for people's awareness, how 

1460
01:14:28,440 --> 01:14:30,520
many people were working on 
walking at the time you think? 

1461
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:35,560
About 60 maybe. 
I think the division was about 

1462
01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:41,840
838483. 
That's with Madison Kenosha, 

1463
01:14:42,240 --> 01:14:45,200
which they closed, which is kind
of foolish. 

1464
01:14:45,200 --> 01:14:48,680
Green Bay, Wausau, Lacrosse and 
Eau Claire. 

1465
01:14:49,120 --> 01:14:52,240
You know, Lacrosse was two 
people, Wausau was two people. 

1466
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:54,720
So the division was, yeah, it's 
about 8380. 

1467
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:56,960
Three agents strong and then did
you have any support with you or

1468
01:14:56,960 --> 01:14:58,840
is it just four agents rocking? 
Yeah. 

1469
01:14:58,880 --> 01:15:04,240
No, we did. 
We so one like training agent 

1470
01:15:04,240 --> 01:15:06,520
when I first started his wife 
was a support employee. 

1471
01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:08,840
So she kind of came with the 
package and she worked there. 

1472
01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:11,880
Just a great lady. 
In fact when I got up there, 

1473
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:16,880
there was only two agents and 
they were both Vietnam vets, old

1474
01:15:16,880 --> 01:15:20,960
school, don't embarrass the 
Bureau type thing and a lot of 

1475
01:15:20,960 --> 01:15:25,440
respect for both of them. 
In fact, Ed Roland was my 

1476
01:15:25,440 --> 01:15:27,720
training agent. 
He had been a Marine in Vietnam 

1477
01:15:27,720 --> 01:15:30,720
and he he fly out, told me I 
don't want to be your training 

1478
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:32,440
agent. 
Tom didn't want to be your 

1479
01:15:32,440 --> 01:15:34,120
training agent. 
The only reason I'm doing this 

1480
01:15:34,120 --> 01:15:35,680
is because I found. 
I heard you were. 

1481
01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:39,560
Yeah. 
Yeah, and, and all the best 

1482
01:15:39,560 --> 01:15:41,680
training agents didn't want to 
be anybody's training agent. 

1483
01:15:41,680 --> 01:15:43,640
Anybody that wanted to tell you 
what to do, Like that's the 

1484
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:45,040
person to stay the hell away 
from, right. 

1485
01:15:45,040 --> 01:15:46,640
I mean, like, that's pretty much
the standard rule. 

1486
01:15:46,800 --> 01:15:48,640
Anybody that wants to go like, 
you know, oh, let me teach you 

1487
01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:49,960
how to do it. 
You know, young blood, you're 

1488
01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:51,600
like, oh, God, like, please 
don't. 

1489
01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:53,840
Whatever it is, give me the guy 
that doesn't want anything to do

1490
01:15:53,840 --> 01:15:56,400
with it. 
We went up one day up to 

1491
01:15:57,240 --> 01:15:59,920
Sturgeon Bay in Door County, 
which is a very nice kind of 

1492
01:15:59,920 --> 01:16:05,480
resort area. 
And we went out on the, at the 

1493
01:16:05,480 --> 01:16:07,600
time he wasn't, he was the 
assistant chief of the Sturgeon 

1494
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:11,400
Bay Police Department, National 
Academy grad and the chief 

1495
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:13,720
deputy from Door County 
Sheriff's Office. 

1496
01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:17,600
And this is, I mean, the statue 
of limitations is run on this. 

1497
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:21,120
This is a long time ago, but we 
were probably like, you know, 

1498
01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:25,840
1:00 on a Thursday afternoon and
we went out on an earliest boat 

1499
01:16:25,920 --> 01:16:28,040
and drinking beers. 
We went and had lunch and 

1500
01:16:28,040 --> 01:16:30,120
everything. 
And as we're driving back to 

1501
01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:35,280
Green Bay, I said, Ed, hey, 
should I put in for like 4 hours

1502
01:16:35,280 --> 01:16:38,320
of leave for this afternoon? 
He said, why the hell would you 

1503
01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:40,600
do that? 
I said, I don't know, it didn't 

1504
01:16:40,600 --> 01:16:42,080
really seem like we're at work 
and drinking breast. 

1505
01:16:42,080 --> 01:16:43,080
He goes. 
That's liaison. 

1506
01:16:43,080 --> 01:16:47,160
Liaison work, that's right. 
But. 

1507
01:16:47,320 --> 01:16:49,600
So that's how it was. 
Yeah, and then when you had to 

1508
01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:52,040
do the work, you do the work as 
long as it takes and nobody ever

1509
01:16:52,040 --> 01:16:53,920
complaints about it, which is 
the old school kind of way. 

1510
01:16:54,320 --> 01:16:59,880
I'm curious what was the attire?
Because I, because I've heard 

1511
01:16:59,880 --> 01:17:02,360
people complain these days, you 
know, FBI agent show up. 

1512
01:17:02,360 --> 01:17:04,440
Like, you know, this is dressy 
for some people. 

1513
01:17:05,840 --> 01:17:08,000
And, and what you're wearing 
might be dressy in, in certain 

1514
01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:10,040
areas, Like, you know, it's 
T-shirts and then Plaid and 

1515
01:17:10,040 --> 01:17:14,160
flannels and this kind of thing.
And at some point we, we stopped

1516
01:17:14,160 --> 01:17:16,680
the suit thing. 
Were you a suit guy? 

1517
01:17:16,680 --> 01:17:19,160
For most of the time, No. 
I. 

1518
01:17:19,160 --> 01:17:23,360
Wasn't but because working the 
Indian Reservation is you. 

1519
01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:27,760
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you get. 
To Yeah, part of that is, I 

1520
01:17:27,760 --> 01:17:30,440
mean, there are obviously there 
are times when you're, you know,

1521
01:17:30,520 --> 01:17:31,800
you're out in the woods. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1522
01:17:32,440 --> 01:17:35,840
That's yeah, that's a no go. 
Interviews we used. 

1523
01:17:36,640 --> 01:17:40,720
We had a guy, we typically had 
one agent that was working white

1524
01:17:40,720 --> 01:17:43,880
collar. 
So we'd have like 1-1 agent 

1525
01:17:44,200 --> 01:17:46,160
pretty much dedicated to work 
the reservation. 

1526
01:17:46,160 --> 01:17:48,320
Then we'd have like a white 
collar agent and then the other 

1527
01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:51,480
two agents would have like 
territories and they basically 

1528
01:17:51,880 --> 01:17:54,920
were reactive agents. 
So they, you know, if there was 

1529
01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:57,520
a bank robbery in one of their 
counties, that was their case 

1530
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:00,880
back then. 
We, you know, we did fugitive. 

1531
01:18:00,880 --> 01:18:04,720
In fact, I think it was a huge 
mistake for the FBI to get out 

1532
01:18:04,720 --> 01:18:07,160
of the fugitive business, to get
out of the property crimes 

1533
01:18:07,160 --> 01:18:08,320
business. 
I mean, there's so much 

1534
01:18:08,320 --> 01:18:10,360
crossover and there's so many 
skills we've learned. 

1535
01:18:10,440 --> 01:18:15,080
I mean I I did some ITSP, 
Interstate transportation or 

1536
01:18:15,080 --> 01:18:16,560
approximate Trump cases. 
And stuff. 

1537
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:18,960
That's like Axel. 
That's like Axel Foley stuff. 

1538
01:18:20,200 --> 01:18:22,000
Right. 
That's the opening of Beverly 

1539
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:23,120
Hills Cop. 
That was my favorite. 

1540
01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:26,760
He's in the back there with all 
the with the cigarettes, but. 

1541
01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:27,840
That's right. 
So. 

1542
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:31,040
So why do we, I mean, obviously 
911 was the the catalyst that 

1543
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:33,200
moved a lot of that out of it. 
But even though the Crime Act, 

1544
01:18:33,200 --> 01:18:34,520
we don't do a lot of that kind 
of stuff. 

1545
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:37,040
Is it just the the Department of
Justice movement? 

1546
01:18:37,040 --> 01:18:40,760
Did you see that happening? 
Well, you mean with? 

1547
01:18:41,320 --> 01:18:42,640
Like. 
Just they're not interested in 

1548
01:18:42,640 --> 01:18:45,440
prosecuting that kind of stuff. 
So like it's like maybe either 

1549
01:18:45,440 --> 01:18:47,520
they're not interested or maybe 
like, or maybe there's a Bureau 

1550
01:18:47,520 --> 01:18:48,200
focus. 
I don't know. 

1551
01:18:48,200 --> 01:18:51,480
But like like I never. 
Well. 

1552
01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:54,800
We've gotten just some, we've 
gotten so like siloed into some 

1553
01:18:54,800 --> 01:18:55,920
of the stuff that people will 
do. 

1554
01:18:55,920 --> 01:18:59,680
Like, like even if you talk 
about like pill cases, for 

1555
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:01,200
example. 
So like healthcare fraud should 

1556
01:19:01,200 --> 01:19:03,360
be fraud. 
But they run them like drug 

1557
01:19:03,360 --> 01:19:04,760
squads. 
They just try to find doctors 

1558
01:19:04,760 --> 01:19:07,760
that are pushing pills and it 
seems like they just open up 

1559
01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:10,120
whatever the easiest work is and
people aren't looking to do the 

1560
01:19:10,120 --> 01:19:12,800
good work necessarily, which is 
probably hard. 

1561
01:19:12,840 --> 01:19:15,320
I have to be like, I haven't 
done that stuff but. 

1562
01:19:16,720 --> 01:19:21,080
Well, you know, I was really 
kind of insulated because 

1563
01:19:21,160 --> 01:19:23,400
working in, I worked in NRA my 
entire career. 

1564
01:19:23,440 --> 01:19:25,160
Which is, which is amazing, by 
the way. 

1565
01:19:25,160 --> 01:19:28,040
Yeah, yeah. 
Yeah, older guys tell me that 

1566
01:19:28,040 --> 01:19:31,800
all the time. 
And I had really, I had the same

1567
01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:35,800
supervisor for like 13 years. 
That's wild. 

1568
01:19:36,280 --> 01:19:37,680
He was awesome. 
Yeah. 

1569
01:19:37,680 --> 01:19:40,640
So you were, you were insulated 
from a lot of the BS that is out

1570
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:43,720
there, which is worth noting. 
But you know, it's out there 

1571
01:19:43,720 --> 01:19:45,480
because, I mean, you heard the 
stories, obviously. 

1572
01:19:45,880 --> 01:19:52,120
Right, right. 
But, and we had our own US 

1573
01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:54,360
attorney's office when I 
started, we, there was no 

1574
01:19:54,640 --> 01:19:56,680
federal court in Green Bay. 
So everything was run through 

1575
01:19:56,680 --> 01:20:00,360
Milwaukee and they established a
federal court there, I think in 

1576
01:20:00,360 --> 01:20:04,360
2000. 
To this is sort of a because 

1577
01:20:04,360 --> 01:20:06,800
primarily because of the volume 
of cases from the Menominee 

1578
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:09,040
Indian Reservation, that's how 
they sort of justified it. 

1579
01:20:09,040 --> 01:20:12,040
But as you know, you don't, they
don't just assign a federal 

1580
01:20:12,040 --> 01:20:14,200
judge as all the infrastructure 
that goes with it. 

1581
01:20:14,200 --> 01:20:19,200
You get, we had US Marshall, we 
had awesome US Marshals, you 

1582
01:20:19,200 --> 01:20:22,480
know, willing to help us out if 
it's, you know, they, it can be 

1583
01:20:22,480 --> 01:20:25,040
territorial when you're in a 
larger, a larger city 

1584
01:20:25,040 --> 01:20:26,800
environment. 
It wasn't like that with the 

1585
01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:29,560
marshals that we had. 
We initially started with one 

1586
01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:32,880
AUSA, then two, and then by the 
time I retired, there were 3A 

1587
01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:35,080
USAS there. 
They have the person clerk of 

1588
01:20:35,120 --> 01:20:38,600
the federal Clerk of Courts 
there and everything in DEA. 

1589
01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:41,240
And it was nice. 
We had our own and, and, you 

1590
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:43,560
know, there'd be a Christmas 
party and all the feds would 

1591
01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:45,920
kind of get together. 
And it was, I don't know if it's

1592
01:20:45,920 --> 01:20:49,480
still like that, probably not. 
But yeah, we had a really good 

1593
01:20:49,480 --> 01:20:51,800
environment and people would 
say, hey, what's your OPI said? 

1594
01:20:51,800 --> 01:20:53,680
I don't have an op. 
I'm happy here. 

1595
01:20:53,680 --> 01:20:54,760
I have no desire. 
Yeah. 

1596
01:20:54,760 --> 01:20:58,200
So, so, so a couple acronyms 
AUSA that's going to be the 

1597
01:20:58,200 --> 01:21:00,200
assistant United States 
Attorney, that's going to be the

1598
01:21:00,200 --> 01:21:01,920
federal like frontline 
prosecutors. 

1599
01:21:01,920 --> 01:21:06,160
So just so people are tracking 
and and we have had an AUSA on 

1600
01:21:06,160 --> 01:21:09,000
the podcast before. 
So if you guys have not heard 

1601
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:12,360
it, go back and listen to Reed's
interview and he was in the USA 

1602
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:17,400
in New Mexico. 
And then OP is the sneaky FB is 

1603
01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:21,000
option to do a office of 
preference, which is like it's 

1604
01:21:21,000 --> 01:21:23,640
your 1 golden ticket but you 
don't know when you're going to 

1605
01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:26,880
be able to punch it. 
So the OP is something that you 

1606
01:21:26,880 --> 01:21:28,520
list. 
I want to go live here. 

1607
01:21:28,800 --> 01:21:32,120
And then at some point they 
offer it to you, usually when 

1608
01:21:32,120 --> 01:21:35,000
you've usually when your kid is 
like a year away from graduating

1609
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:37,360
from high school, probably. 
So you'd have to like uproot 

1610
01:21:37,360 --> 01:21:39,400
your whole life and then you 
don't take it. 

1611
01:21:39,480 --> 01:21:42,280
So O PS are kind of like they're
kind of a funny little thing. 

1612
01:21:42,280 --> 01:21:44,360
It gives you the illusion of 
having some sort of say in your 

1613
01:21:44,360 --> 01:21:47,920
future in the FBI, right? 
Right, right. 

1614
01:21:47,960 --> 01:21:50,400
Exactly. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1615
01:21:51,720 --> 01:21:53,480
My OP was Indian country by the 
way. 

1616
01:21:53,480 --> 01:21:55,120
My OP was to go work. 
You did. 

1617
01:21:55,360 --> 01:21:56,440
That's what I always wanted to 
do. 

1618
01:21:56,440 --> 01:21:58,120
Yeah. 
My OP was Shelby, Montana. 

1619
01:21:58,120 --> 01:22:00,200
I was trying to get up there to 
do Indian Country and I got 

1620
01:22:00,200 --> 01:22:05,560
passed over is what it is. 
You get you get another OP if 

1621
01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:07,560
you do it for three or four 
years, which was but like, I 

1622
01:22:07,560 --> 01:22:09,120
don't know, like Montana sounds 
awesome. 

1623
01:22:09,120 --> 01:22:12,440
And the Blackfoot reservation is
yeah, you do it as a hardship. 

1624
01:22:13,280 --> 01:22:15,000
So yeah, I mean, it's kind of 
game in the system. 

1625
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:18,400
But the other thing is, is that 
Indian Reservation work is the 

1626
01:22:18,400 --> 01:22:21,320
old school detective work and. 
It's. 

1627
01:22:21,320 --> 01:22:23,560
The closest you get to be in 
like a local detective or 

1628
01:22:23,560 --> 01:22:26,800
working and you know an area 
that you know how how rough was 

1629
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:28,400
the the reservation that you 
worked. 

1630
01:22:31,080 --> 01:22:34,880
Not as bad, I don't think as you
know, because I'd go to some of 

1631
01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:37,840
these in services and talk to 
these agents, you know, working 

1632
01:22:37,840 --> 01:22:39,840
in the Dakotas or yeah, the. 
Dakotas. 

1633
01:22:40,960 --> 01:22:46,720
Yeah, the Menominee's was 
probably about 8000 as far as 

1634
01:22:46,760 --> 01:22:50,840
population. 
And there there might be like 3 

1635
01:22:50,840 --> 01:22:54,800
murders, 3 or 4 murders in a 
year, which for population 

1636
01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:57,200
that's it's a. 
Ton yeah, that's that's huge, 

1637
01:22:57,200 --> 01:23:01,120
but that's that's not insane. 
And then was was suicide an 

1638
01:23:01,120 --> 01:23:03,240
issue there as much like death 
investigations? 

1639
01:23:04,200 --> 01:23:09,080
Yes, OK, yeah. 
And one thing that still bothers

1640
01:23:09,080 --> 01:23:13,240
me to this day is are you 
familiar with the Co sleeping 

1641
01:23:13,320 --> 01:23:22,920
deaths where an infant is 
smothered by the mother and the 

1642
01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:25,920
the, and when it becomes a crime
when they're intoxicated because

1643
01:23:25,920 --> 01:23:27,400
because of the negligence. 
OK, Yeah. 

1644
01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:29,640
That would make sense. 
Yeah. 

1645
01:23:29,640 --> 01:23:32,160
Yeah. 
You know, I only had, I had one 

1646
01:23:32,160 --> 01:23:34,840
of those cases and the mom was 
unhappy with, you know, because 

1647
01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:37,000
they said we're going to take a 
blood draw to determine which 

1648
01:23:37,120 --> 01:23:39,640
because she admitted she'd been 
drinking and that, you know, 

1649
01:23:39,640 --> 01:23:42,080
there's a crib right in the in 
the bedroom. 

1650
01:23:42,080 --> 01:23:43,920
Why do you put the baby in the 
crib? 

1651
01:23:44,720 --> 01:23:46,480
Who knows? 
But obviously her judgement was 

1652
01:23:46,480 --> 01:23:51,920
clouded, but the US Attorney's 
office refused to prosecute. 

1653
01:23:52,080 --> 01:23:54,280
And I'm not suggesting, you 
know, something like that you go

1654
01:23:54,280 --> 01:23:55,680
to prison for the rest of their 
life. 

1655
01:23:55,720 --> 01:23:58,160
But there probably should be 
some consequences for that. 

1656
01:23:58,240 --> 01:24:02,240
And, you know, I talked to 
agents in that that worked other

1657
01:24:02,920 --> 01:24:04,720
than other Indian Country 
offices. 

1658
01:24:04,720 --> 01:24:08,240
And they said, yeah, our our 
ASAUSAS will prosecute those 

1659
01:24:08,240 --> 01:24:10,520
cases. 
But I mean, there's always going

1660
01:24:10,520 --> 01:24:13,240
to that's. 
No, there's, there's always 

1661
01:24:13,240 --> 01:24:15,480
discretion in the office. 
And then what's weird is that 

1662
01:24:15,480 --> 01:24:17,720
depending on the volume of what 
they're used to seeing, they 

1663
01:24:17,720 --> 01:24:20,200
also kind of adjust their 
threshold up or down, right? 

1664
01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:23,760
Like, you know what, what we get
prosecuted down in in New 

1665
01:24:23,760 --> 01:24:27,800
Mexico, you know, may not even 
make the radar up in, in Montana

1666
01:24:27,800 --> 01:24:31,960
or the Dakotas, because the 
volume and the atrocities that 

1667
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:33,680
they saw were just so much 
Wilder. 

1668
01:24:33,760 --> 01:24:36,800
Actually, Gallup, NM was a was a
real wild one. 

1669
01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:39,160
There's a famous agent out there
named Bill Hall. 

1670
01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:40,480
You ever crossed Bill Hall's 
path? 

1671
01:24:40,480 --> 01:24:42,440
You ever heard of him on Indian 
Country training? 

1672
01:24:43,640 --> 01:24:46,000
Was he the one that wrote that 
e-mail about Gallup? 

1673
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:48,960
I don't know if that was him or 
not, but there's a kind of a 

1674
01:24:48,960 --> 01:24:51,480
humorous e-mail about. 
About how rough it is the. 

1675
01:24:51,760 --> 01:24:54,000
Gallop is and that's obviously 
tongue in cheek and it talks 

1676
01:24:54,000 --> 01:24:55,640
about just the living condition 
it's. 

1677
01:24:55,640 --> 01:24:58,400
Funny, he, he tried to talk me 
out of it because I was 

1678
01:24:58,400 --> 01:25:00,560
interested in coming to Gallup 
and working in Farmington as 

1679
01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:02,160
well. 
And he ran both those Ras for a 

1680
01:25:02,160 --> 01:25:03,600
long, long time, like, you know,
20. 

1681
01:25:03,600 --> 01:25:06,000
Like he maxed out and did a 
couple of extensions and left 

1682
01:25:06,640 --> 01:25:09,280
over the COVID mandates. 
Actually, at the end of the day,

1683
01:25:09,280 --> 01:25:12,640
that was just kind of strong. 
But I think I think he's a 

1684
01:25:12,640 --> 01:25:14,680
sheriff out there now, or at 
least he will be soon. 

1685
01:25:14,680 --> 01:25:17,160
He'll go and run for sheriff. 
But yeah, it was just like, 

1686
01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:20,920
yeah, he was telling me he's 
like, I've had people who I 

1687
01:25:20,920 --> 01:25:23,360
found their bodies wrapped in 
their own entrails and the head 

1688
01:25:23,360 --> 01:25:26,960
was separated. 
And you're like the volume and 

1689
01:25:27,160 --> 01:25:31,920
the graphic nature of just how 
rough the, you know, the novel 

1690
01:25:31,920 --> 01:25:33,640
reservation is, it's pretty 
intense. 

1691
01:25:33,640 --> 01:25:36,000
And I think the Blackfoot is 
also very, very high volume for 

1692
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:38,120
that, which I saw. 
There's some other ones. 

1693
01:25:38,120 --> 01:25:39,760
I know the pro res is not super 
nice. 

1694
01:25:39,960 --> 01:25:42,480
So there's a lot of reservations
that just have, you know, 

1695
01:25:42,480 --> 01:25:44,400
there's a lot of poverty, 
there's a lot of desperation, 

1696
01:25:44,400 --> 01:25:46,120
there's a lot of alcohol, 
there's a lot of substance 

1697
01:25:46,120 --> 01:25:47,840
abuse. 
And then there's just not a lot 

1698
01:25:47,840 --> 01:25:49,280
of opportunities, not 
necessarily. 

1699
01:25:49,280 --> 01:25:53,360
So people who stick around there
end up in pretty dire straits. 

1700
01:25:53,520 --> 01:25:55,920
It's, it's always interesting, 
like when I went to, I work 

1701
01:25:55,920 --> 01:26:00,000
Mescalero Apache as well, and I 
felt like Mescalero was, was 

1702
01:26:00,000 --> 01:26:03,360
really functional. 
Like I got up there and they go,

1703
01:26:03,360 --> 01:26:05,080
it's hell. 
You know, it's hell on earth. 

1704
01:26:05,080 --> 01:26:07,040
You know, I went up there and I 
went like, everybody has four 

1705
01:26:07,040 --> 01:26:09,000
walls and a roof. 
What are you talking about? 

1706
01:26:09,320 --> 01:26:12,720
Like I saw people squatting in 
trailers that the, the SWAT team

1707
01:26:12,720 --> 01:26:16,240
had already ripped the front of 
it off, you know, with a, with a

1708
01:26:16,240 --> 01:26:18,280
grappling hook. 
And so they were living in a 

1709
01:26:18,280 --> 01:26:21,360
three walled structure because 
the 4th wall had been ripped off

1710
01:26:22,080 --> 01:26:25,040
and, and it was 4040° below 0. 
And that was like, you know, 

1711
01:26:25,040 --> 01:26:27,480
people are living in that. 
So when everybody has all their 

1712
01:26:27,480 --> 01:26:30,440
walls, you, you're like. 
Yeah, it's not that bad. 

1713
01:26:30,440 --> 01:26:33,400
It's like going, it's like going
to do a third world country. 

1714
01:26:33,560 --> 01:26:34,960
It is, yeah. 
We used to. 

1715
01:26:34,960 --> 01:26:37,000
We used to do. 
I used to do this thing where 

1716
01:26:37,000 --> 01:26:38,880
you drive on the highway and you
look out in New Mexico and you 

1717
01:26:38,880 --> 01:26:40,800
can always do this. 
And it's like res or no res, you

1718
01:26:40,800 --> 01:26:43,800
know, res or not res and you can
always tell by looking out 

1719
01:26:43,800 --> 01:26:47,160
around you just like the amount 
of just trash and sadness. 

1720
01:26:47,160 --> 01:26:49,480
And you know, it looks like they
took out a trailer park out of 

1721
01:26:49,480 --> 01:26:51,560
the worst part of Oklahoma, 
which is where I went to school 

1722
01:26:51,760 --> 01:26:53,680
and then just dropped it 
somewhere. 

1723
01:26:53,680 --> 01:26:56,600
And you just go like it just 
looks hard. 

1724
01:26:56,600 --> 01:26:59,240
It looks hard. 
And you know, every resident 

1725
01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:00,600
different. 
I mean, they're all, they're all

1726
01:27:00,600 --> 01:27:02,640
their own kind of 
characteristics obviously, but. 

1727
01:27:03,520 --> 01:27:06,320
How were the how were the tribal
police that you had to work 

1728
01:27:06,320 --> 01:27:07,080
with? 
So we worked with. 

1729
01:27:07,080 --> 01:27:09,400
BIA and I know that's not always
that common. 

1730
01:27:09,400 --> 01:27:12,600
So we had BIA Police Department 
and so you know, there's a 

1731
01:27:12,640 --> 01:27:14,480
there's a mixed bag of that, 
obviously. 

1732
01:27:15,320 --> 01:27:18,040
So they were feds, they were 
underpaid and they were 

1733
01:27:18,040 --> 01:27:21,840
overworked by a lot. 
They were like GS threes or GS 

1734
01:27:21,840 --> 01:27:26,560
fours or something crazy and 
yeah, and they busted their ass 

1735
01:27:26,560 --> 01:27:29,520
and there was one guy on day and
one guy on night and two guys on

1736
01:27:29,520 --> 01:27:32,040
weekends, you know, for day and 
night, generally speaking. 

1737
01:27:32,040 --> 01:27:35,000
But as far as I can recall, I 
mean, just, you know, and for 

1738
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:39,800
something like 50,000 acres 
worth of space, it's a big 

1739
01:27:39,800 --> 01:27:42,120
property, it's a big space, it's
a lot of people. 

1740
01:27:42,120 --> 01:27:43,360
And then, you know, they know 
everybody. 

1741
01:27:43,360 --> 01:27:45,520
The other problem is a lot of 
them come out of that because 

1742
01:27:45,520 --> 01:27:48,440
the Indian preference that comes
in for the BIA, you get a lot of

1743
01:27:48,440 --> 01:27:50,520
people that are local. 
And so then it's really rough. 

1744
01:27:50,520 --> 01:27:51,920
I mean, it's like any other 
small town. 

1745
01:27:52,320 --> 01:27:54,040
They got to police their own and
you know, they know all the 

1746
01:27:54,040 --> 01:27:56,240
backstories and everybody's 
sympathetic to it, but it's like

1747
01:27:56,600 --> 01:27:59,120
they got all the biases and the,
you know, all the issues and the

1748
01:27:59,120 --> 01:28:02,240
ones that I dealt with I think 
were very, very fair guys. 

1749
01:28:02,240 --> 01:28:04,720
Like they're just, they just 
busted their ass. 

1750
01:28:04,720 --> 01:28:07,560
But man, it's, I mean, it's a 
rough gig and did. 

1751
01:28:07,840 --> 01:28:11,200
You have dead spots where you 
didn't. 

1752
01:28:11,200 --> 01:28:12,680
Have any? 
Yeah, for sure, for sure. 

1753
01:28:12,680 --> 01:28:14,720
Yeah, always that. 
And then you're always kind of 

1754
01:28:14,720 --> 01:28:16,280
like, yeah. 
So that was one of the reasons 

1755
01:28:16,280 --> 01:28:18,080
why you're on your own out 
there. 

1756
01:28:18,160 --> 01:28:20,200
Obviously, mine was 100 miles 
away from the RA. 

1757
01:28:20,200 --> 01:28:22,160
I don't know what the distance 
was for your res, but. 

1758
01:28:22,400 --> 01:28:24,960
Wow, it wasn't that. 
It was probably 40. 

1759
01:28:25,280 --> 01:28:27,080
It wasn't that bad. 
But when you're in the middle of

1760
01:28:27,080 --> 01:28:29,320
dead spots, it's always kind of 
quirky because this is not your 

1761
01:28:29,320 --> 01:28:30,720
home base. 
This is not where you are the 

1762
01:28:30,720 --> 01:28:32,760
most comfortable person. 
And sometimes you got to go and 

1763
01:28:32,760 --> 01:28:35,360
do a respond to like a body in 
the woods where there's nothing 

1764
01:28:35,360 --> 01:28:36,680
out there. 
You go to some house and there's

1765
01:28:36,680 --> 01:28:39,480
no, there's no way to radio in 
or call in and nobody knows 

1766
01:28:39,480 --> 01:28:41,080
where the hell you are. 
I used to always check in and 

1767
01:28:41,080 --> 01:28:42,720
check out on the rest. 
And of course, inevitably it's 

1768
01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:43,680
in the middle of the night, 
right? 

1769
01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:47,040
So right, there's like one 
person sitting at an over city. 

1770
01:28:48,680 --> 01:28:51,280
The nice thing from my 
perspective, the kind of the 

1771
01:28:51,280 --> 01:28:55,280
nice thing about it was I had a 
four, at least four of my 

1772
01:28:55,280 --> 01:28:57,680
reservation cases that actually 
went to trial. 

1773
01:28:57,960 --> 01:29:00,520
So you get trial experience or 
the FBI agents go through their 

1774
01:29:00,520 --> 01:29:03,360
entire career never being, never
having a trial. 

1775
01:29:03,520 --> 01:29:05,280
Yeah, never even seen the inside
of courtroom. 

1776
01:29:05,360 --> 01:29:07,800
Yeah, I got into courtrooms, but
I never, I never went to trial. 

1777
01:29:07,800 --> 01:29:10,560
I never like by the time that I 
was ready to go do it, that's 

1778
01:29:10,560 --> 01:29:12,400
when I ended up getting 
suspended, which was so sad for 

1779
01:29:12,400 --> 01:29:14,280
me because I was like, I got a 
couple of cases here. 

1780
01:29:14,280 --> 01:29:15,920
They're going to end up go. 
We had a couple of them that 

1781
01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:17,080
were going to end up going the 
distance. 

1782
01:29:17,080 --> 01:29:20,800
I think that would have been fun
to do the job that you signed up

1783
01:29:20,800 --> 01:29:22,200
for and then, you know. 
Right. 

1784
01:29:22,960 --> 01:29:24,680
I mean, and like you say, 
there's a lot of people in the 

1785
01:29:24,680 --> 01:29:26,840
national security that would 
never get in a record, like they

1786
01:29:26,840 --> 01:29:29,200
would never even occur to them 
that that would be part of the 

1787
01:29:29,200 --> 01:29:32,240
job. 
And so it's just So what? 

1788
01:29:32,240 --> 01:29:33,920
So, and I think that's really 
important to talk about. 

1789
01:29:33,920 --> 01:29:35,960
The monolithic nature of the FBI
doesn't exist. 

1790
01:29:35,960 --> 01:29:38,760
It's not real. 
It's everybody has a different 

1791
01:29:38,760 --> 01:29:40,080
experience based on the field 
office. 

1792
01:29:40,080 --> 01:29:42,440
They're at Part 1 and then Part 
2. 

1793
01:29:43,240 --> 01:29:46,640
The violation determines your, 
you know, how your adventure 

1794
01:29:46,640 --> 01:29:49,080
goes. 
And some people's adventures are

1795
01:29:49,080 --> 01:29:52,120
very, very different. 
And they don't, you know, if it 

1796
01:29:52,120 --> 01:29:54,360
suits you to get an indoor dog 
and you just want to look at 

1797
01:29:54,360 --> 01:29:57,640
FISA, then you can, you know, 
then they'll probably assign you

1798
01:29:57,640 --> 01:30:00,800
to like a drug squad because. 
That's what they do. 

1799
01:30:02,400 --> 01:30:06,520
I think like there's no, there's
no rationale for how you get 

1800
01:30:06,520 --> 01:30:09,640
assigned to something. 
Exactly right. 

1801
01:30:10,640 --> 01:30:13,000
I was going to ask when you went
through the Academy, because I 

1802
01:30:13,000 --> 01:30:16,560
think something that's that's 
been lost in this is that 

1803
01:30:17,720 --> 01:30:21,760
there's not a real appreciation 
for the history and all the 

1804
01:30:21,760 --> 01:30:25,920
accomplishments. 
Our predecessors in the FBI and 

1805
01:30:25,920 --> 01:30:28,360
they built this organization 
like the Marine Corps, is big on

1806
01:30:28,360 --> 01:30:29,080
that. 
Right. 

1807
01:30:29,120 --> 01:30:30,360
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
You got to know the. 

1808
01:30:30,400 --> 01:30:32,320
Names. 
And even at boot camp they do 

1809
01:30:32,320 --> 01:30:33,720
that. 
Yeah, you say goodnight to Jesse

1810
01:30:33,720 --> 01:30:36,360
Poller, right? 
Right, exactly and. 

1811
01:30:36,480 --> 01:30:38,320
It's important. 
And I don't know if you've got 

1812
01:30:38,320 --> 01:30:42,040
any of that when we went through
the Academy in 2016, if they 

1813
01:30:42,080 --> 01:30:44,960
ever even talk about. 
So here's what's so sad. 

1814
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:48,320
And I think that, and that might
be one of the things we talk 

1815
01:30:48,320 --> 01:30:50,560
about too, is institutional 
knowledge transfer, which I 

1816
01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:53,040
think the FBI is absolutely 
atrocious at. 

1817
01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:56,000
But, and it could have been, 
that could be a new problem. 

1818
01:30:56,400 --> 01:31:00,640
But what I saw was we had an 
opportunity to work, you know, 

1819
01:31:00,640 --> 01:31:02,640
fake cases as they were going 
through the training at the 

1820
01:31:02,640 --> 01:31:03,880
Academy. 
And so they're giving us this 

1821
01:31:03,880 --> 01:31:08,160
thing and it's like we worked 
organized crime block of 

1822
01:31:08,160 --> 01:31:10,920
instruction. 
And so did we do the Dillinger 

1823
01:31:10,920 --> 01:31:13,680
gang? 
Did we do you know, Bonnie and 

1824
01:31:13,680 --> 01:31:15,800
Clyde? 
Did we do, you know, taking out 

1825
01:31:15,800 --> 01:31:18,920
the Capones? 
Did we go and, and do Lacosa 

1826
01:31:18,920 --> 01:31:21,720
Nostra, you know, from the 70s 
and the big Rico, the original 

1827
01:31:21,720 --> 01:31:23,160
Rico cases? 
Did we do those? 

1828
01:31:23,320 --> 01:31:26,240
No, we did The Simpsons, the 
cartoon. 

1829
01:31:27,280 --> 01:31:30,880
It was which is, you know, like 
at 35 years old, I was like, I 

1830
01:31:30,880 --> 01:31:33,080
thought I was being punked. 
Like if anybody had told me that

1831
01:31:33,080 --> 01:31:35,880
that was serious And and you 
know, if somebody had jumped out

1832
01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:37,720
and told me I was being punked, 
I would have felt way better 

1833
01:31:37,720 --> 01:31:44,920
about it because like, we did MO
at the bar and Homer Simpson and

1834
01:31:45,160 --> 01:31:46,960
the Springfield Mafia, whatever 
the like. 

1835
01:31:46,960 --> 01:31:48,280
I didn't watch The Simpsons 
enough to know. 

1836
01:31:48,280 --> 01:31:49,480
I just kind of know the 
characters. 

1837
01:31:49,480 --> 01:31:52,680
And it's like who we recruit as 
Achs. 

1838
01:31:52,680 --> 01:31:54,960
And, you know, what sort of 
access and placement would they 

1839
01:31:54,960 --> 01:31:57,480
have? 
And it's like, and there are 

1840
01:31:57,720 --> 01:32:01,120
real cases the FBI did where 
they did brilliant takedowns and

1841
01:32:01,120 --> 01:32:03,480
did some really good work and 
they wrote the book on it. 

1842
01:32:03,480 --> 01:32:06,040
And those books have been lost. 
And I think that's some of the 

1843
01:32:06,040 --> 01:32:09,200
things that America doesn't 
realize is that, you know, there

1844
01:32:09,200 --> 01:32:13,640
is this this storied history 
and, you know, there's some 

1845
01:32:13,720 --> 01:32:16,000
obviously some horrible things. 
That the FBI did over. 

1846
01:32:16,320 --> 01:32:18,440
This over the, over the decades,
I mean, there's always like some

1847
01:32:18,440 --> 01:32:20,760
sins in every single decade, but
there's some really 

1848
01:32:20,760 --> 01:32:22,640
overwhelmingly good things that 
got done. 

1849
01:32:22,640 --> 01:32:24,880
And that's why so many people 
were so proud to be a part of 

1850
01:32:24,880 --> 01:32:27,920
that legacy. 
And it doesn't get passed on in 

1851
01:32:27,920 --> 01:32:31,400
any way. 
And, and, and then it's like, 

1852
01:32:32,000 --> 01:32:34,680
you know, do we have people from
New York that are coming down 

1853
01:32:34,680 --> 01:32:37,200
and sharing like, hey, this is 
how we took down the mob in the 

1854
01:32:37,200 --> 01:32:39,160
70s and the early 80s. 
Like this is what we're doing 

1855
01:32:39,160 --> 01:32:42,560
and briefing it like, no, 
they're not, They're not running

1856
01:32:42,560 --> 01:32:44,800
around and they're not sending 
them out to other places. 

1857
01:32:44,800 --> 01:32:46,160
I always thought there should be
like a hit squad. 

1858
01:32:46,160 --> 01:32:48,840
I'm like, whatever you're best 
at, you know, building a squad 

1859
01:32:48,840 --> 01:32:52,720
of people from headquarters, the
program manager groups who were 

1860
01:32:52,720 --> 01:32:55,000
absolute studs with 15 years 
worth of investigative 

1861
01:32:55,000 --> 01:32:57,000
experience. 
And instead of those, you get 

1862
01:32:57,000 --> 01:33:00,360
people that have like 3 years 
investigative experience, put 

1863
01:33:00,360 --> 01:33:03,280
their hand out blue flame into 
the, into the Hoover building 

1864
01:33:03,280 --> 01:33:06,120
and then started telling people 
who had 15 years on the job like

1865
01:33:06,120 --> 01:33:09,040
you and try to tell you how to 
run your case or whether you 

1866
01:33:09,040 --> 01:33:10,920
could or couldn't have money to 
do that kind of thing. 

1867
01:33:11,520 --> 01:33:14,760
And, and, and I, I mean, that's 
totally outside of the 

1868
01:33:14,760 --> 01:33:17,440
intelligence apparatus, which is
obviously it's own problem, but 

1869
01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:19,800
that failure to hold on to 
institutional knowledge. 

1870
01:33:19,800 --> 01:33:21,760
Were they briefing cases to you 
at the Academy? 

1871
01:33:21,760 --> 01:33:26,280
Is that like? 
No, no, I mean, even when I went

1872
01:33:26,280 --> 01:33:29,040
through, it was all, you know, 
I, you know, learned it on my 

1873
01:33:29,040 --> 01:33:31,760
own and, you know, did some read
some books and everything. 

1874
01:33:31,760 --> 01:33:36,760
And but I think that's 
unfortunate that because I, like

1875
01:33:36,760 --> 01:33:40,400
I said, I remember thinking what
a contrast between the culture 

1876
01:33:40,400 --> 01:33:44,840
of the Marine Corps where 
they're constantly, you know, 

1877
01:33:44,920 --> 01:33:48,640
sort of pushing the legacy in, 
in a way, it's to make sure that

1878
01:33:48,640 --> 01:33:52,120
you don't let down, that you can
try to live up to that standard.

1879
01:33:52,120 --> 01:33:53,040
That's right. 
Yeah. 

1880
01:33:53,080 --> 01:33:54,400
Yeah. 
Like this is, this is what it 

1881
01:33:54,440 --> 01:33:56,680
looked like back then and and 
that's what you're being 

1882
01:33:56,680 --> 01:33:59,560
measured against. 
Right, right. 

1883
01:33:59,800 --> 01:34:03,360
Yeah, I always felt like that 
the FBI and this included at the

1884
01:34:03,360 --> 01:34:05,360
field office, it was like, we're
already at top. 

1885
01:34:05,360 --> 01:34:07,200
So like, why do we have to do 
anything? 

1886
01:34:07,840 --> 01:34:09,960
That's such a terrible attitude,
you know what I mean? 

1887
01:34:09,960 --> 01:34:12,520
Like, like anybody that self 
congratulates over and over 

1888
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:14,560
again, like we're the premier 
law enforcement agency in the 

1889
01:34:14,560 --> 01:34:16,480
world. 
It's like, well, maybe you were,

1890
01:34:17,120 --> 01:34:20,560
but you know, I think there's 
plenty of other claims to it 

1891
01:34:20,560 --> 01:34:23,240
right now. 
And and you're obviously not 

1892
01:34:23,240 --> 01:34:26,000
showing, you're not showing 
people that that's what it is. 

1893
01:34:26,000 --> 01:34:31,720
So you know when I. 
When I showed up in Green Bay, 

1894
01:34:33,280 --> 01:34:36,120
my well, at the time he wasn't 
my supervisor, but he, he had 

1895
01:34:36,120 --> 01:34:38,400
oped in from New York. 
He eventually became a super, 

1896
01:34:38,400 --> 01:34:41,720
like I said, an old school guy 
and he basically told me, hey, 

1897
01:34:42,120 --> 01:34:44,280
we're especially in a small 
office like that. 

1898
01:34:45,800 --> 01:34:49,080
If we get requests for 
assistance from local law 

1899
01:34:49,080 --> 01:34:51,400
enforcement, we're going to bend
over backwards to do whatever we

1900
01:34:51,400 --> 01:34:55,520
can to help them. 
And we open just a ton of, 

1901
01:34:55,640 --> 01:34:57,880
they're called domestic police 
cooperation cases. 

1902
01:34:58,560 --> 01:35:01,400
And I mean, we, for example, I 
got a call one time from a 

1903
01:35:01,400 --> 01:35:03,920
detective in Marinette County 
and he says, hey, do you guys 

1904
01:35:03,920 --> 01:35:08,160
have a underwater evidence team 
or dive team? 

1905
01:35:08,800 --> 01:35:11,680
And I said, well, we don't have 
one in Milwaukee, but there's 

1906
01:35:11,680 --> 01:35:14,520
one in Miami, there's one in 
WFO, there's one in New York. 

1907
01:35:15,000 --> 01:35:16,720
He said, can you get them out 
here? 

1908
01:35:16,720 --> 01:35:20,520
You know, we have a nobody 
homicide and I said, I don't 

1909
01:35:20,520 --> 01:35:23,320
know, but I'll find out. 
I thought my, my supervisor, he 

1910
01:35:23,320 --> 01:35:24,640
goes, Yep, we're going to open a
domestic. 

1911
01:35:24,760 --> 01:35:28,200
And that the dive team that you,
they call it usurp from New York

1912
01:35:28,520 --> 01:35:32,760
came out and you know, it was 
about 6 guys and they spent 

1913
01:35:33,280 --> 01:35:35,480
probably 5-6 hours in the 
section of the river. 

1914
01:35:35,760 --> 01:35:38,840
They didn't find the, the body. 
They had a cadaver dog that had 

1915
01:35:38,840 --> 01:35:41,440
alerted in the section of the 
river and they took Agps. 

1916
01:35:41,760 --> 01:35:43,040
But hey, that's great for 
liaison. 

1917
01:35:43,040 --> 01:35:46,640
We don't send them a bill. 
They can kind of clear that lead

1918
01:35:46,640 --> 01:35:50,040
out and stuff. 
And by the time I retired, the 

1919
01:35:50,040 --> 01:35:51,880
Bureau started cracking down on 
that. 

1920
01:35:51,960 --> 01:35:54,360
They made it more and more 
difficult, like you had to meet 

1921
01:35:54,360 --> 01:35:57,880
all these different criteria to 
open these domestic police 

1922
01:35:57,880 --> 01:36:00,120
cooperation cases. 
And I thought this, this maybe 

1923
01:36:00,120 --> 01:36:03,080
it's time to go because we're 
all paying taxes. 

1924
01:36:03,080 --> 01:36:05,200
Why can't? 
And you think those guys on the 

1925
01:36:05,200 --> 01:36:06,520
dive team minded coming out? 
No. 

1926
01:36:06,520 --> 01:36:07,880
They loved it, No? 
They love it. 

1927
01:36:07,880 --> 01:36:08,040
Yeah. 
A. 

1928
01:36:08,040 --> 01:36:12,160
Couple of on the field for a 
backer game and stuff, but 

1929
01:36:12,160 --> 01:36:15,360
that's that's unfortunate. 
Some pencil neck back at 

1930
01:36:15,360 --> 01:36:16,120
headquarters. 
Yeah. 

1931
01:36:17,560 --> 01:36:20,480
And they've made this decision 
that they they're acting like 

1932
01:36:20,480 --> 01:36:23,800
the, the work, the the bread and
butter work of local law 

1933
01:36:23,800 --> 01:36:27,040
enforcement is sort of beneath 
an FBI agent's work. 

1934
01:36:27,040 --> 01:36:29,120
And I don't think that's true. 
I think that's not what the 

1935
01:36:29,120 --> 01:36:31,640
American public expects. 
And I don't think that's what we

1936
01:36:31,640 --> 01:36:33,400
found either. 
I mean, like, if anybody, you 

1937
01:36:33,400 --> 01:36:38,400
know, my guys that were happiest
in Las Cruces and, you know, 

1938
01:36:38,400 --> 01:36:39,520
they'll probably hear this 
podcast. 

1939
01:36:39,520 --> 01:36:41,520
So, you know, we'll say, I don't
want to say their names because 

1940
01:36:41,520 --> 01:36:43,760
because they're out there 
working on the street, but 

1941
01:36:43,760 --> 01:36:46,520
they're out there working with 
the, with the state and, and 

1942
01:36:46,520 --> 01:36:49,000
local, you know, task force. 
And the task force is in a 

1943
01:36:49,000 --> 01:36:51,000
building that is rented, not by 
the Bureau. 

1944
01:36:51,040 --> 01:36:54,200
It's not a Bureau off site. 
You know, it's, it's this task 

1945
01:36:54,200 --> 01:36:55,960
force, it's a metro drug task 
force. 

1946
01:36:56,160 --> 01:36:59,840
And it's, it's being run jointly
by, you know, members of the 

1947
01:36:59,840 --> 01:37:01,880
Sheriff's Department, members of
the local Police Department, 

1948
01:37:01,880 --> 01:37:04,960
members of the state police. 
And, and that's who's got it. 

1949
01:37:04,960 --> 01:37:07,400
And like, that's the, that's the
cherry job to have if you could 

1950
01:37:07,400 --> 01:37:09,000
do it because you're doing real 
work. 

1951
01:37:09,400 --> 01:37:12,440
And, and so there is a big, big 
disconnect between that and what

1952
01:37:12,440 --> 01:37:15,680
I saw at WFO over five years of 
just misery, you know, two years

1953
01:37:15,680 --> 01:37:18,920
sitting in a skiff. 
That's not where FBI agents 

1954
01:37:18,920 --> 01:37:20,120
belong. 
They don't belong hiding. 

1955
01:37:20,120 --> 01:37:22,480
And, you know, maybe go get a 
briefing or something, but not 

1956
01:37:22,480 --> 01:37:25,640
for work. 
And I worked every damn day in 

1957
01:37:25,640 --> 01:37:27,960
a, in a building where I had to 
like, you know, lock up my cell 

1958
01:37:27,960 --> 01:37:31,520
phone and take off my, you know,
my, my garment watch and, and go

1959
01:37:31,520 --> 01:37:34,240
sit behind and then look at 10 
hours of Pfizer where I like it 

1960
01:37:34,240 --> 01:37:35,800
was in Chinese. 
I don't even read Chinese. 

1961
01:37:35,800 --> 01:37:37,440
I don't know anything about it. 
So I don't even know what the 

1962
01:37:37,440 --> 01:37:39,080
hell I'm looking at. 
I'm just like scrolling through 

1963
01:37:39,080 --> 01:37:40,280
looking for something in 
English. 

1964
01:37:40,600 --> 01:37:44,080
And what's funny is, is that 
when you do that and you're 

1965
01:37:44,080 --> 01:37:46,080
looking for things in English, 
inevitably you're going to try 

1966
01:37:46,080 --> 01:37:48,760
to find people who speak English
and are American because that's 

1967
01:37:48,760 --> 01:37:50,720
the kind of subject that, you 
know, I can go after, right? 

1968
01:37:51,240 --> 01:37:53,040
And that's expressly forbidden 
by federal law. 

1969
01:37:53,040 --> 01:37:55,760
It's called reverse targeting. 
So there's no way to use the 

1970
01:37:55,760 --> 01:38:00,000
tools that we even had without 
breaking federal law. 

1971
01:38:00,000 --> 01:38:02,040
And then you set these guys up, 
you know, like, why the hell did

1972
01:38:02,040 --> 01:38:03,560
I have a badge and a gun if I'm 
going to go do that? 

1973
01:38:04,040 --> 01:38:06,680
So, you know, meanwhile, like, I
would have been happy to help 

1974
01:38:06,680 --> 01:38:08,240
Metro Pedia. 
Like when we went out there, I 

1975
01:38:08,240 --> 01:38:09,840
jumped at the chance to go do 
those things. 

1976
01:38:09,840 --> 01:38:11,840
And you'd find out like Metro 
Pedia had like one other guy 

1977
01:38:11,840 --> 01:38:13,440
shot in the neck by like a 
pellet gun. 

1978
01:38:14,080 --> 01:38:15,760
Well, you can't have cops 
getting shot in the neck by any 

1979
01:38:15,760 --> 01:38:17,800
gun. 
Like, so it's like, let's go, 

1980
01:38:17,800 --> 01:38:19,960
let's go bang on every door and 
find out who the hell no. 

1981
01:38:19,960 --> 01:38:22,040
Then by the way, you get some of
the funniest experiences when 

1982
01:38:22,040 --> 01:38:23,880
you're walking. 
You know, first of all, you look

1983
01:38:23,880 --> 01:38:26,000
like me. 
And then you go bang on doors in

1984
01:38:26,000 --> 01:38:28,280
Southeast DC, which are like 
black neighborhoods and they're 

1985
01:38:28,280 --> 01:38:32,200
not, you know, very nice. 
And you know, you get somebody 

1986
01:38:32,200 --> 01:38:34,280
guy that comes out and you go, 
hey, somebody got shot here like

1987
01:38:34,280 --> 01:38:36,320
3 months ago because like there 
was shootings and they tried to 

1988
01:38:36,320 --> 01:38:38,720
do like cold cases. 
And you know, somebody got shot 

1989
01:38:38,720 --> 01:38:41,240
here like 3 months ago. 
And the guy's like, oh man, I 

1990
01:38:41,240 --> 01:38:43,320
don't know anybody. 
I just moved here 10 years ago 

1991
01:38:43,680 --> 01:38:49,520
and I was like, like what? 
You just moved here 10 years 

1992
01:38:49,520 --> 01:38:50,200
ago. 
Does that. 

1993
01:38:50,200 --> 01:38:52,440
Fly like is everybody else 
you've been. 

1994
01:38:52,440 --> 01:38:54,120
In for like 30 years. 
Like that's the craziest thing 

1995
01:38:54,120 --> 01:38:55,720
I've ever heard. 
That's really funny though. 

1996
01:38:56,200 --> 01:38:59,240
I, I, I love, I live for those 
moments because I love talking 

1997
01:38:59,240 --> 01:39:00,720
to people, saying weird things 
like that. 

1998
01:39:00,720 --> 01:39:02,920
I just, I don't even care what 
the day looks like at the end of

1999
01:39:02,920 --> 01:39:03,960
it. 
It's like some guy told me he'd 

2000
01:39:03,960 --> 01:39:06,160
only been here 10 years. 
He didn't know anybody. 

2001
01:39:06,400 --> 01:39:07,080
That's funny. 
It's. 

2002
01:39:07,320 --> 01:39:09,440
Like front row seats are the 
greatest show on earth. 

2003
01:39:09,440 --> 01:39:10,960
It is. 
Yeah, it certainly is. 

2004
01:39:10,960 --> 01:39:12,920
You know, or like, you knock on 
the door and, like, inevitably 

2005
01:39:12,920 --> 01:39:14,240
people answers, though with no 
clothes on. 

2006
01:39:14,240 --> 01:39:16,480
And it's like, what were you 
expecting on the other side of 

2007
01:39:16,480 --> 01:39:18,480
this door, man? 
You heard the bang. 

2008
01:39:18,480 --> 01:39:21,480
You heard them say Metro PD. 
Why? 

2009
01:39:21,480 --> 01:39:23,440
Why no pants? 
That's an interesting choice. 

2010
01:39:23,920 --> 01:39:26,320
It it's like 3:30 in the 
afternoon, you know, on a 

2011
01:39:26,320 --> 01:39:28,440
Wednesday. 
Wear your pants. 

2012
01:39:29,200 --> 01:39:31,280
But. 
Yeah, stuff like that. 

2013
01:39:31,280 --> 01:39:33,280
But but yeah, if you don't get 
to have that experience, then 

2014
01:39:33,280 --> 01:39:35,440
you then you're not doing law 
enforcement. 

2015
01:39:35,440 --> 01:39:37,000
I don't know what you're doing, 
but you're doing something else.

2016
01:39:37,000 --> 01:39:39,600
Whatever. 
I did intelligence and that's. 

2017
01:39:39,600 --> 01:39:44,840
All it and certainly the Bureau 
has been leading good people and

2018
01:39:45,200 --> 01:39:48,000
you know, the the number of 
resignations I hear are way up 

2019
01:39:48,040 --> 01:39:51,240
and and that's not necessarily a
new. 

2020
01:39:51,320 --> 01:39:53,160
I think it's, it's on steroids 
now. 

2021
01:39:53,160 --> 01:39:58,720
But we had the guy that came to 
Green Bay who was a trooper from

2022
01:39:58,720 --> 01:40:04,680
Alaska, a very squared away guy,
you know, just a solid work 

2023
01:40:04,680 --> 01:40:06,640
ethic. 
And I mean, he was a first 

2024
01:40:06,640 --> 01:40:10,120
office agent like I was came to 
came to Green Bay and because he

2025
01:40:10,120 --> 01:40:12,680
was a new guy persisted, wasn't 
around when I started. 

2026
01:40:12,680 --> 01:40:16,440
He was getting all the Guardian 
leads and you know, this was a 

2027
01:40:16,440 --> 01:40:19,320
guy, you know, that was that 
been a trooper and. 

2028
01:40:20,880 --> 01:40:23,080
Yeah, tell people what Guardian 
leads are just so they can get, 

2029
01:40:23,800 --> 01:40:25,200
because I think this actually 
makes a difference. 

2030
01:40:25,200 --> 01:40:27,240
When we talk about things like 
January 6, people don't 

2031
01:40:27,240 --> 01:40:31,000
understand what the system. 
Is right, yeah. 

2032
01:40:31,000 --> 01:40:33,760
So, you know, the Guardian 
system is. 

2033
01:40:34,160 --> 01:40:38,280
I think the intent behind it is 
probably good, but it's as a 

2034
01:40:38,280 --> 01:40:40,680
practical matter, it's not 
really functioning the way it's 

2035
01:40:41,000 --> 01:40:44,560
it's supposed to. 
But it's a mechanism for members

2036
01:40:44,560 --> 01:40:49,280
of the public to either go 
online and provide a tip it it 

2037
01:40:49,800 --> 01:40:54,960
was born out of the 9/11 attacks
or just call in on the phone. 

2038
01:40:55,040 --> 01:40:59,600
And the, I think it's based in 
West Virginia and there's 

2039
01:41:00,400 --> 01:41:03,640
analysts there that take in this
information and then they send 

2040
01:41:03,640 --> 01:41:05,760
it out to the appropriate field 
office. 

2041
01:41:05,760 --> 01:41:08,640
And we used to call it Jason 
Ghost because you get these 

2042
01:41:08,640 --> 01:41:13,960
guardian leads, you know, Middle
Eastern males taking photos like

2043
01:41:13,960 --> 01:41:17,680
pre surveillance activity of the
like Raynitschke Bridge in Green

2044
01:41:17,680 --> 01:41:19,640
Bay, like, and they get a 
license plate. 

2045
01:41:19,640 --> 01:41:22,280
Well, then you run the license 
plate and it comes back to 

2046
01:41:23,360 --> 01:41:25,920
Hernandez or Gomez. 
And then you go to the you go to

2047
01:41:25,920 --> 01:41:29,080
follow up, you go to their house
and they open the door and they 

2048
01:41:29,080 --> 01:41:31,360
have a shrine to the Virgin Mary
or something. 

2049
01:41:31,360 --> 01:41:34,480
And it's like, well, I'm pretty 
sure these are Muslim 

2050
01:41:34,480 --> 01:41:36,080
terrorists. 
So you have to be very 

2051
01:41:36,080 --> 01:41:39,040
diplomatic, right? 
And I never, I never really had 

2052
01:41:39,040 --> 01:41:40,360
a news. 
I would have just explained to 

2053
01:41:40,360 --> 01:41:43,840
him, Hey, this is what happened.
You know, I'm just, I'm just 

2054
01:41:43,840 --> 01:41:44,720
doing my job. 
I don't. 

2055
01:41:44,720 --> 01:41:45,760
Yeah, hold. 
On. 

2056
01:41:46,320 --> 01:41:48,600
I want to, I want to dig on that
for a second because I think 

2057
01:41:48,600 --> 01:41:52,360
it's really interesting because 
a lot of the agents that I have 

2058
01:41:52,360 --> 01:41:55,400
met that are new and young and 
didn't have patrol time like you

2059
01:41:55,400 --> 01:41:58,840
did and didn't know how to go 
talk to people, which obviously 

2060
01:41:58,840 --> 01:42:00,600
I talk to people all day long. 
It's my favorite. 

2061
01:42:02,800 --> 01:42:05,320
They don't they, they think 
they're a spy or something, so 

2062
01:42:05,320 --> 01:42:07,800
they don't give any information.
What, like, OK, so you get that 

2063
01:42:07,800 --> 01:42:10,560
guardian lead, you end up with 
Hernandez, you're knocking on 

2064
01:42:10,560 --> 01:42:11,760
there. 
They got the Our Lady de 

2065
01:42:11,760 --> 01:42:15,360
Guadalupe up on the wall. 
You know, it's like bang, bang, 

2066
01:42:15,360 --> 01:42:16,480
bang. 
What do you tell them? 

2067
01:42:16,480 --> 01:42:18,240
Like, it's like, hello, how can 
I help you? 

2068
01:42:18,240 --> 01:42:19,840
And then what? 
What do you tell them? 

2069
01:42:21,080 --> 01:42:25,440
So you know, I'll identify 
myself and usually I'll, I'll 

2070
01:42:25,440 --> 01:42:28,000
apologize and say, look, I'm 
sorry to waste your time. 

2071
01:42:29,240 --> 01:42:31,720
The reason why I'm here is 
someone I'll, I'll just tell 

2072
01:42:31,720 --> 01:42:33,520
them straight out, someone 
called this in. 

2073
01:42:33,600 --> 01:42:37,720
They they saw you like taking 
photos, which is perfectly legal

2074
01:42:37,720 --> 01:42:41,560
by the way, but it depending how
you know how close it was to 

2075
01:42:41,560 --> 01:42:43,960
911. 
I mean, usually they would have 

2076
01:42:43,960 --> 01:42:46,760
a somewhat of an understanding 
of sure, sure, sure. 

2077
01:42:46,760 --> 01:42:49,240
I I get it's like I'll be out of
here. 

2078
01:42:49,360 --> 01:42:53,960
I'll be out of your way here. 
I just, you know, I'm obligated 

2079
01:42:53,960 --> 01:42:56,320
to follow up and knock on your 
door, something like that. 

2080
01:42:56,400 --> 01:42:58,240
Just an honest thing of why 
you're there. 

2081
01:42:58,880 --> 01:43:01,320
Yeah. 
So I had AI had this kid who 

2082
01:43:01,320 --> 01:43:04,720
came out of the Academy, nice 
kid, you know, but like, so many

2083
01:43:04,720 --> 01:43:07,320
of them just had no idea. 
And you know, like I said, I'm 

2084
01:43:07,320 --> 01:43:09,400
35 going through. 
Obviously we had people as young

2085
01:43:09,400 --> 01:43:12,160
as 24 and 25 coming through. 
So I have a decade of different,

2086
01:43:12,160 --> 01:43:15,400
you know, life experience. 
And so there's a big, vast 

2087
01:43:15,800 --> 01:43:18,880
difference between an agent who 
has five years on, who's 40, and

2088
01:43:18,880 --> 01:43:21,680
an agent who has five years on. 
That's thirty, I think just, you

2089
01:43:21,680 --> 01:43:23,720
know, because they didn't have 
any previous experience. 

2090
01:43:24,440 --> 01:43:27,240
And I said, let's, let's pregame
one of these calls because we 

2091
01:43:27,240 --> 01:43:28,560
had to go, we had to go talk to 
somebody. 

2092
01:43:28,560 --> 01:43:29,480
I care what the hell to deal 
with. 

2093
01:43:29,480 --> 01:43:34,400
And he goes, OK, and I go knock,
knock, you know, what are you on

2094
01:43:34,400 --> 01:43:36,640
my doorstep for? 
And he goes. 

2095
01:43:37,160 --> 01:43:40,200
Well, you know, hey. 
Sir, I go, hey, how's it going? 

2096
01:43:40,200 --> 01:43:45,880
And he goes, so you know, are 
you, you know, Mark Smith And I 

2097
01:43:45,880 --> 01:43:47,680
go, yeah, I am. 
Who are you again? 

2098
01:43:47,920 --> 01:43:50,000
And you go on this guy, I'm from
the FBI. 

2099
01:43:50,000 --> 01:43:52,200
And I go, OK, well, what can I 
do for you? 

2100
01:43:52,200 --> 01:43:54,360
And he's like, well, your, your 
name came across my desk. 

2101
01:43:54,960 --> 01:43:57,000
And I would always screw with 
guys who said that I don't know 

2102
01:43:57,000 --> 01:43:58,960
what they were teaching at the 
Academy for a while or what. 

2103
01:43:59,120 --> 01:44:01,360
But your name came across my 
desk as my favorite expression 

2104
01:44:01,360 --> 01:44:02,280
because it doesn't mean 
anything. 

2105
01:44:02,280 --> 01:44:04,760
That's a nonsensical thing. 
And I go, what do you have, like

2106
01:44:04,760 --> 01:44:06,280
a like a conveyor belt on your 
desk? 

2107
01:44:06,400 --> 01:44:08,920
They just have those names go 
across like in the sushi 

2108
01:44:08,920 --> 01:44:12,160
restaurant where you got like a 
ticker like like like a like a 

2109
01:44:12,160 --> 01:44:14,840
Wall Street and just the names. 
You just go talk to those 

2110
01:44:14,840 --> 01:44:15,960
people. 
Do you have any reason why 

2111
01:44:16,000 --> 01:44:18,520
you're talking to me? 
And he and he got all flustered 

2112
01:44:18,520 --> 01:44:23,040
and I go, man, it's real simple.
I'm Kyle, I'm from the FBI. 

2113
01:44:23,800 --> 01:44:25,400
I'm here because of these 
reasons. 

2114
01:44:26,080 --> 01:44:29,400
Do you have a few minutes that I
can, we can speak, you know, 

2115
01:44:29,880 --> 01:44:31,280
sorry to bother you without an 
appointment. 

2116
01:44:31,280 --> 01:44:34,160
It's like, it's like it's really
easy stuff, but that but that 

2117
01:44:34,160 --> 01:44:37,240
fear of being able to like own 
the process, like you have a 

2118
01:44:37,240 --> 01:44:39,120
right to go knock on the door. 
They have a right to tell you to

2119
01:44:39,120 --> 01:44:40,880
piss off too. 
That's the other funny thing. 

2120
01:44:40,880 --> 01:44:43,240
And if you do, it's like, well, 
I'm not, I'm not a fan. 

2121
01:44:43,520 --> 01:44:45,280
You can tell me to piss off. 
Like I don't want to talk to the

2122
01:44:45,280 --> 01:44:46,400
feds either. 
At my house. 

2123
01:44:46,520 --> 01:44:48,880
I probably would. 
But but but most people and most

2124
01:44:48,880 --> 01:44:50,640
people do talk to us. 
That's the other thing, right? 

2125
01:44:51,640 --> 01:44:53,400
Right. 
Almost almost always, people 

2126
01:44:53,400 --> 01:44:54,680
will talk to you. 
I don't know why but. 

2127
01:44:54,680 --> 01:44:55,520
They do. 
That's true. 

2128
01:44:55,680 --> 01:44:57,480
Yeah. 
Even people you can morandize. 

2129
01:44:57,520 --> 01:44:58,560
Them. 
Yeah, even the ones that 

2130
01:44:58,560 --> 01:45:00,560
shouldn't be talking to you. 
Right, right. 

2131
01:45:00,960 --> 01:45:06,000
Well, the reason I brought that 
up though, is that this trooper 

2132
01:45:06,320 --> 01:45:07,600
ended up leaving. 
Sure. 

2133
01:45:07,680 --> 01:45:10,720
He went back to his old job and 
he actually at the time I 

2134
01:45:10,720 --> 01:45:13,840
remember he said, Jerry, I think
what we're doing is I think 

2135
01:45:13,840 --> 01:45:17,720
we're is unconstitutional. 
I think we're, you know, and 

2136
01:45:17,720 --> 01:45:20,960
it's a it's a Gray area with 
somebody post something on 

2137
01:45:20,960 --> 01:45:26,400
social media that, you know, 
support Osama bin Laden or 

2138
01:45:26,400 --> 01:45:28,840
something like that. 
OK, that's protected speech, 

2139
01:45:29,120 --> 01:45:31,040
right? 
That's maybe a bad example, but.

2140
01:45:31,120 --> 01:45:33,120
No, but I think it's really 
important because even stuff 

2141
01:45:33,120 --> 01:45:36,640
like that right it, I mean, they
say they support ISIS for all 

2142
01:45:36,640 --> 01:45:38,080
that matters. 
It doesn't really matter what 

2143
01:45:38,080 --> 01:45:39,840
they support. 
The fact of the matter is 

2144
01:45:39,840 --> 01:45:43,480
that's, that's what you swore 
when you swore into the Marine 

2145
01:45:43,480 --> 01:45:45,000
Corps. 
That's what I swore when I did 

2146
01:45:45,000 --> 01:45:46,520
the Air Force. 
And same thing in the FBI. 

2147
01:45:46,520 --> 01:45:49,760
You don't get to pick and choose
the Bill Rights, right? 

2148
01:45:50,160 --> 01:45:53,560
And, and it's interesting that 
people of principle always kind 

2149
01:45:53,560 --> 01:45:56,160
of home known these problems. 
And former cops and former law 

2150
01:45:56,160 --> 01:45:58,960
enforcement seem to be the 
biggest, I mean, former military

2151
01:45:58,960 --> 01:46:03,320
guys have the biggest problem 
with this stuff because like 

2152
01:46:03,320 --> 01:46:06,840
we're maybe it's because we've 
had a hunch of what an unlawful 

2153
01:46:06,840 --> 01:46:08,160
order would look like. 
I don't know. 

2154
01:46:10,040 --> 01:46:13,520
Right. 
Well, and I think when Steve 

2155
01:46:13,520 --> 01:46:18,080
Friend wrote that editorial 
about the oath, it's not just 

2156
01:46:18,080 --> 01:46:22,480
the consent agreement to your, 
you know, iPhone or whatever. 

2157
01:46:22,480 --> 01:46:24,720
I think that's he's hit the nail
on the head. 

2158
01:46:24,720 --> 01:46:29,800
And it coming from the military,
I, you know, I think not, not 

2159
01:46:29,800 --> 01:46:32,160
all veterans, but most veterans 
I think have a better 

2160
01:46:32,160 --> 01:46:34,920
appreciation for that than than 
what what that means. 

2161
01:46:34,920 --> 01:46:40,600
And that's why like you have a 
guy like Mark Ryder who really 

2162
01:46:40,600 --> 01:46:44,240
stuck his neck out and and I 
was, you know, I was in the 

2163
01:46:44,240 --> 01:46:47,320
division when all that was going
on and it was, it was just 

2164
01:46:47,320 --> 01:46:49,400
atrocious. 
How much happened to? 

2165
01:46:49,400 --> 01:46:51,200
Him. 
So yeah, people, if you haven't 

2166
01:46:51,200 --> 01:46:54,840
heard our our talk with Sheriff 
Mark Kreider, go back two weeks 

2167
01:46:54,840 --> 01:46:56,800
and go listen to that. 
I think it's well worth your 

2168
01:46:56,800 --> 01:46:58,800
time. 
And Sheriff Kreider's a really 

2169
01:46:58,800 --> 01:47:01,640
good guy and he's a friend of my
family now, just because he let 

2170
01:47:01,640 --> 01:47:03,480
me stay at his house and come to
see his town, which I thought 

2171
01:47:03,480 --> 01:47:05,600
was really cool. 
But you guys were in the same 

2172
01:47:05,600 --> 01:47:07,800
division. 
And then, yes, but you're not in

2173
01:47:07,800 --> 01:47:09,960
the same RA. 
He's in a different office. 

2174
01:47:09,960 --> 01:47:12,640
Obviously he was in. 
Headquarter city, yeah, yeah. 

2175
01:47:12,800 --> 01:47:15,840
So how close were you guys? 
Slot team together, so we got to

2176
01:47:15,840 --> 01:47:18,880
know him through that a little 
bit and it's a small, small 

2177
01:47:18,880 --> 01:47:23,320
enough division, right? 
And Green Bay was only about 

2178
01:47:23,360 --> 01:47:26,360
probably 90 miles from 
Milwaukee, so. 

2179
01:47:26,360 --> 01:47:28,400
You guys are back to field 
office fairly regularly for 

2180
01:47:28,440 --> 01:47:30,440
stuff. 
Well then, yes, exactly. 

2181
01:47:30,520 --> 01:47:33,080
What about like evidence? 
Were you guys returning evidence

2182
01:47:33,080 --> 01:47:36,520
there to the Oh yeah, OK. 
For sure evidence in a grand 

2183
01:47:36,520 --> 01:47:39,120
jury because we even though we 
had a federal court up in Green 

2184
01:47:39,120 --> 01:47:41,240
Bay, any time we had to go 
testify to the grand jury we had

2185
01:47:41,240 --> 01:47:42,560
to go down to Milwaukee for 
that. 

2186
01:47:43,920 --> 01:47:48,560
In fact, I had a trial one time 
in Milwaukee and we got the list

2187
01:47:48,560 --> 01:47:53,000
of that is a reservation case 
and got the list of defense 

2188
01:47:53,000 --> 01:47:55,040
witnesses. 
And I ran all of them. 

2189
01:47:55,640 --> 01:47:58,400
And sure enough, there was a 
number of them that had active 

2190
01:47:58,400 --> 01:48:01,800
warrants. 
Mark was on the fugitive task 

2191
01:48:01,800 --> 01:48:04,320
force at the time. 
They say you want you want some 

2192
01:48:04,320 --> 01:48:07,480
easy stats, some easy arrests. 
That's so funny. 

2193
01:48:07,480 --> 01:48:10,640
And he said, yeah. 
And AUSA said, well, at least 

2194
01:48:10,640 --> 01:48:13,520
let them testify first, right? 
And when they get off the stand 

2195
01:48:13,520 --> 01:48:16,400
and they exit the courtroom, 
then you can take them into 

2196
01:48:16,400 --> 01:48:18,680
custody. 
So, OK, so let's talk about 

2197
01:48:18,680 --> 01:48:20,680
those kind of people, right? 
And so some of those were 

2198
01:48:20,680 --> 01:48:22,560
probably violent warrants just 
because of the nature of what 

2199
01:48:22,560 --> 01:48:24,840
happens on Indian reservations, 
right? 

2200
01:48:24,920 --> 01:48:27,160
I mean, that's just. 
Well, these, these were warrants

2201
01:48:27,160 --> 01:48:30,600
from, they were local warrants 
from like Shano County or Brown 

2202
01:48:30,600 --> 01:48:33,440
County. 
So they were out outside the 

2203
01:48:33,520 --> 01:48:35,080
reservation. 
They were, you know, there were 

2204
01:48:35,080 --> 01:48:37,600
state warrants, but they were 
certainly they were, it was 

2205
01:48:37,600 --> 01:48:39,520
within the state. 
So they were going to be, they 

2206
01:48:39,520 --> 01:48:41,960
would extradite it right back up
to Shano County or whatever. 

2207
01:48:42,200 --> 01:48:43,840
Well, she didn't need a SWAT 
team to grab them because they 

2208
01:48:43,840 --> 01:48:45,920
were in a courtroom, but you 
could just walk and hook them up

2209
01:48:45,920 --> 01:48:48,560
right there and introduce 
yourself and right. 

2210
01:48:48,560 --> 01:48:51,160
And, and, and it's so funny. 
It's like Steve and I have 

2211
01:48:51,160 --> 01:48:52,440
always, we hit on the same 
thing. 

2212
01:48:52,440 --> 01:48:54,600
So Steve friend and I obviously 
are buddies at this point 

2213
01:48:54,600 --> 01:48:58,240
because, you know, he, his name 
went public the same day that my

2214
01:48:58,360 --> 01:49:02,840
interview with Bongino did. 
And, and oddly enough, it's, you

2215
01:49:02,840 --> 01:49:05,080
know, one of the things that I 
really despise is like using 

2216
01:49:05,080 --> 01:49:07,080
SWAT teams for everything. 
I just think it's foolish. 

2217
01:49:07,280 --> 01:49:10,840
In fact, I used to make fun of 
the SWAT team because, yeah, I 

2218
01:49:10,840 --> 01:49:12,680
went through some pretty 
aggressive training in the Air 

2219
01:49:12,680 --> 01:49:15,120
Force, which which is funny. 
Like a lot of people don't know 

2220
01:49:15,120 --> 01:49:17,720
that happens, but that's fine. 
You can listen to that Alpha 

2221
01:49:17,720 --> 01:49:19,760
Warriors podcast if you want to 
hear me talking about getting 

2222
01:49:19,760 --> 01:49:21,120
around every day for diving 
school. 

2223
01:49:21,520 --> 01:49:25,000
But, but when you, when you talk
about using the, you know, 

2224
01:49:25,000 --> 01:49:29,280
what's more standard at this 
point than using a SWAT team for

2225
01:49:29,280 --> 01:49:31,120
an arrest in the FBI? 
Like it's, it's, it's the 

2226
01:49:31,120 --> 01:49:34,080
standard weapons and tactics, or
I used to call it the standard 

2227
01:49:34,080 --> 01:49:38,000
warrants and arrest team because
like it was the default position

2228
01:49:38,000 --> 01:49:40,800
in Washington, you know, and, 
and then also like what, what 

2229
01:49:40,800 --> 01:49:42,760
was special about their weapons 
or their tactics? 

2230
01:49:42,760 --> 01:49:45,080
Like basically speaking, like 
they ran an M4, like everybody 

2231
01:49:45,080 --> 01:49:47,400
else in the world runs, they ran
a Glock 17. 

2232
01:49:47,520 --> 01:49:49,880
There's nothing more standard 
when it comes to weapons, like 

2233
01:49:49,880 --> 01:49:51,240
of any kind of law enforcement 
group. 

2234
01:49:51,320 --> 01:49:53,360
And then the tactics are pretty 
much the same as any other law 

2235
01:49:53,360 --> 01:49:56,040
enforcement tactics to straight 
line clear, you know, for your 

2236
01:49:56,040 --> 01:49:57,600
front, back to front, whatever 
it was. 

2237
01:49:57,600 --> 01:50:00,960
So I used to always laugh. 
And it's like when you make the 

2238
01:50:00,960 --> 01:50:02,920
standard warrants and arrest 
team because that's what they 

2239
01:50:02,920 --> 01:50:05,200
did. 
You take agents out of the job 

2240
01:50:05,200 --> 01:50:07,520
of being FBI agents, which is 
the thing that people always 

2241
01:50:07,520 --> 01:50:09,600
expected. 
Like, I know that, you know, I 

2242
01:50:09,600 --> 01:50:12,000
just tell by the physicality of 
looking at you right now that 

2243
01:50:12,000 --> 01:50:14,720
you'd still be a guy that go in 
a door and go do work. 

2244
01:50:15,120 --> 01:50:18,160
And there's a lot of agents who 
you would make them look foolish

2245
01:50:18,360 --> 01:50:21,120
that are in their 20s right now 
because they don't have that 

2246
01:50:21,120 --> 01:50:23,720
sort of mentality or that 
preparedness. 

2247
01:50:24,160 --> 01:50:25,960
When did we lose that? 
What happened there? 

2248
01:50:27,000 --> 01:50:30,440
How did that happen? 
It's, it's, it's funny how 

2249
01:50:30,440 --> 01:50:35,880
things have changed because when
I just started in 99 on the, on 

2250
01:50:35,880 --> 01:50:41,080
the Milwaukee SWAT team and back
then, I mean, we, we, we would 

2251
01:50:41,080 --> 01:50:45,600
rarely have any OPS. 
We just trained, trained and 

2252
01:50:45,600 --> 01:50:48,760
that the SA CS were very, and 
maybe with good reason, I don't 

2253
01:50:48,760 --> 01:50:53,280
know, they were reluctant to 
approve the use of the SWAT team

2254
01:50:53,280 --> 01:50:55,040
because there was no upside for 
them. 

2255
01:50:55,040 --> 01:50:56,360
They didn't get a stat out of 
it. 

2256
01:50:56,360 --> 01:50:59,520
At least back then they didn't. 
And if something went sideways 

2257
01:50:59,960 --> 01:51:02,640
or there was a shooting, it was 
going to reflect poorly on them.

2258
01:51:02,640 --> 01:51:04,600
I think at some point that 
obviously changed. 

2259
01:51:04,600 --> 01:51:09,360
Now they're incentivized to use 
these tactical teams and these 

2260
01:51:09,440 --> 01:51:10,680
teams. 
It's not even appropriate. 

2261
01:51:11,560 --> 01:51:14,440
If we had guys that would, that 
would leave the SWAT team 

2262
01:51:14,440 --> 01:51:17,360
because it's, it's like being an
athlete, constantly practicing, 

2263
01:51:17,360 --> 01:51:19,400
never having, you know, ever 
having a game. 

2264
01:51:19,400 --> 01:51:20,960
Yeah, it's all pre season, 
right? 

2265
01:51:21,440 --> 01:51:26,440
We, we had, we had a situation 
once where this woman named 

2266
01:51:26,440 --> 01:51:30,440
Hedwig Braun, who was in her 
80s, was kidnapped and there was

2267
01:51:30,440 --> 01:51:33,200
a ransom demand. 
And at the time we were at the 

2268
01:51:33,600 --> 01:51:37,240
state of Wisconsin SWAT, the 
annual SWAT conference. 

2269
01:51:37,800 --> 01:51:42,600
So we respond, it was down in 
Walworth County and they had 

2270
01:51:42,720 --> 01:51:47,000
command post set up and 
everything in anticipating, you 

2271
01:51:47,000 --> 01:51:50,360
know, at some point, maybe a 
drop in to try to try to rescue 

2272
01:51:50,360 --> 01:51:53,000
this woman. 
And it was probably 10 below 0. 

2273
01:51:53,000 --> 01:51:56,240
It was brutally cold. 
And God knows a woman like that 

2274
01:51:56,240 --> 01:51:58,760
in those conditions is probably 
not going to survive very long. 

2275
01:51:59,760 --> 01:52:03,560
And, you know, and we were the 
Chicago division was right next 

2276
01:52:03,560 --> 01:52:04,840
door and they have a lot of 
resources. 

2277
01:52:04,840 --> 01:52:09,960
So they came up to assist and 
and our ASAC at the time was 

2278
01:52:10,040 --> 01:52:14,040
just and ask him and he really 
Hacked Off the sheriff. 

2279
01:52:14,080 --> 01:52:16,360
And like the sheriff had been up
for like 48 hours. 

2280
01:52:16,360 --> 01:52:18,960
He finally gets home to go to 
sleep and some little tip comes 

2281
01:52:18,960 --> 01:52:21,360
in and he's insisting on, hey, 
we have to call the sheriff and 

2282
01:52:21,360 --> 01:52:23,640
the chief deputy's like, no, we 
don't let it. 

2283
01:52:24,080 --> 01:52:28,120
And then what happened was this 
is back when they had the color 

2284
01:52:28,120 --> 01:52:32,280
codes with the Homeland Security
and when Tom Ridge was the 

2285
01:52:32,280 --> 01:52:35,280
secretary of Homeland and the 
color code changed for some 

2286
01:52:35,280 --> 01:52:36,000
reason. 
I don't even. 

2287
01:52:36,040 --> 01:52:38,200
Yellow to orange. 
Yes. 

2288
01:52:38,680 --> 01:52:42,200
And so it really had no, it had 
nothing to do with us, but I 

2289
01:52:42,200 --> 01:52:44,680
think they were going to have to
stand up a command post at the 

2290
01:52:44,800 --> 01:52:49,040
in the all the field offices. 
So the decision was made to send

2291
01:52:49,040 --> 01:52:52,240
all of us back, like back to 
either Milwaukee or I went to 

2292
01:52:52,240 --> 01:52:55,400
back to Green Bay and the SWAT 
team leader for the Walworth 

2293
01:52:55,400 --> 01:52:58,560
County Sheriff's Office, who we 
knew and we done some training 

2294
01:52:58,560 --> 01:53:02,440
with, He was like begging us. 
He said, no, we, we don't know 

2295
01:53:02,440 --> 01:53:03,920
how many resources we're going 
to need. 

2296
01:53:03,920 --> 01:53:06,000
We might need to cover multiple 
locations. 

2297
01:53:06,000 --> 01:53:07,440
Don't send these guys away. 
Nope. 

2298
01:53:08,000 --> 01:53:11,960
The decision's been made. 
And so they ended up, they did a

2299
01:53:11,960 --> 01:53:13,880
mutual aid request in Waukesha 
County. 

2300
01:53:13,880 --> 01:53:16,800
Their SWAT team came in and they
did like a dynamic assault on a 

2301
01:53:16,800 --> 01:53:19,320
vehicle and flash bangs and 
everything. 

2302
01:53:19,320 --> 01:53:21,240
I'm sure it was pretty cool, but
of course we had. 

2303
01:53:21,960 --> 01:53:23,120
Nothing. 
Yeah, you guys, Yeah. 

2304
01:53:23,240 --> 01:53:25,120
You got pulled off the show 
right before it really happened.

2305
01:53:25,200 --> 01:53:27,360
Right. 
And as I'm driving back to Green

2306
01:53:27,360 --> 01:53:30,920
Bay, one of my colleagues from 
Green Bay is driving down to 

2307
01:53:30,920 --> 01:53:32,840
Walworth County. 
And we probably passed each 

2308
01:53:32,840 --> 01:53:35,960
other and he's going down there 
to like, cover leads and help 

2309
01:53:35,960 --> 01:53:38,280
out with interviews. 
But we could have done that too,

2310
01:53:38,520 --> 01:53:40,840
right? 
But yeah, sometimes it just 

2311
01:53:40,840 --> 01:53:42,240
doesn't. 
It just defies logic. 

2312
01:53:42,240 --> 01:53:47,280
But I do think there was a 
certain level of risk of version

2313
01:53:47,320 --> 01:53:50,760
and you know, I sort of pined 
for those days now though, 

2314
01:53:50,800 --> 01:53:52,480
seeing how. 
Yeah. 

2315
01:53:52,480 --> 01:53:55,000
Do you think there was a higher 
was, was there a higher level of

2316
01:53:55,000 --> 01:53:57,760
confidence in the in the 
individual brick agents out 

2317
01:53:57,760 --> 01:54:00,360
there that were, you know, or 
was it just expected that you 

2318
01:54:00,360 --> 01:54:03,720
were going to be able to go do 
the work like something changed?

2319
01:54:06,520 --> 01:54:11,120
Well, you mean now, like, I 
mean, I suspect the reason 

2320
01:54:11,120 --> 01:54:13,680
they're using those tactical 
teams now or over using them is 

2321
01:54:13,680 --> 01:54:18,240
that they there's, you know, no 
level of confidence whatsoever 

2322
01:54:18,240 --> 01:54:22,120
in the average agent to be able 
to, you know, take out three or 

2323
01:54:22,120 --> 01:54:24,600
four other agents and, and do an
arrest. 

2324
01:54:24,680 --> 01:54:26,800
So yeah. 
Which is funny, like in, in RA, 

2325
01:54:26,920 --> 01:54:29,280
that that still happens. 
I mean, like the my old RA. 

2326
01:54:29,400 --> 01:54:31,720
Yeah, we, we train together. 
We train them on room entries. 

2327
01:54:31,720 --> 01:54:33,640
We would do that every firearms 
session, which we did every 

2328
01:54:33,640 --> 01:54:36,440
month at the minimum. 
Like, like like like you'd 

2329
01:54:36,440 --> 01:54:38,600
expect professionals to do. 
Right. 

2330
01:54:38,840 --> 01:54:40,680
Right. 
But yeah, I agree with you. 

2331
01:54:40,720 --> 01:54:43,520
I think that there's some sort 
of, I don't know, there's a 

2332
01:54:43,520 --> 01:54:45,240
disconnect there. 
And maybe they like, and that 

2333
01:54:45,240 --> 01:54:47,360
skill set has even looked down 
on maybe that's part of the sort

2334
01:54:47,360 --> 01:54:50,520
of woke, you know, reduction of 
masculinity. 

2335
01:54:50,520 --> 01:54:52,120
And that's, you know, we'll 
leave it just for the 

2336
01:54:52,120 --> 01:54:53,760
specialists who just have to be 
that. 

2337
01:54:53,760 --> 01:54:56,560
But I don't know, I always 
thought like, agents should be 

2338
01:54:56,560 --> 01:54:59,120
able to do their own arrests. 
They should be able to take down

2339
01:54:59,120 --> 01:55:04,040
their own cases almost always. 
You talk to like, Cooper era 

2340
01:55:04,040 --> 01:55:07,520
agents, you know, guys in their 
70s, and they'll tell you the 

2341
01:55:07,520 --> 01:55:09,960
same thing and say we didn't 
even have our plans back then. 

2342
01:55:09,960 --> 01:55:13,320
Now you know. 
Yeah, there's no, I don't I'm 

2343
01:55:13,320 --> 01:55:16,280
not mad at our plans. 
However, I hate sometimes hasty.

2344
01:55:16,280 --> 01:55:18,920
So I you know, so I think I told
you I did SOG for three years. 

2345
01:55:18,920 --> 01:55:20,440
So we would do an our plan every
morning. 

2346
01:55:20,960 --> 01:55:23,600
It was whatever we briefed and 
you know, the situation was 

2347
01:55:23,600 --> 01:55:25,440
whatever we got from the case 
Asian on the ground. 

2348
01:55:25,440 --> 01:55:27,640
And then sometimes that would 
change within jacks as you as 

2349
01:55:27,640 --> 01:55:29,720
you went through your day. 
But you know, essentially it's 

2350
01:55:29,720 --> 01:55:31,760
like here's what the plan is and
then the plan was always pretty 

2351
01:55:31,760 --> 01:55:33,960
standard as far as how we were 
going to, you know, execute 

2352
01:55:33,960 --> 01:55:35,800
surveillance because Pfizer is 
only you can only get so 

2353
01:55:35,800 --> 01:55:36,840
creative. 
We aren't flying. 

2354
01:55:36,840 --> 01:55:39,400
We didn't have an Iron Man suit.
So, you know, when he got right 

2355
01:55:39,400 --> 01:55:42,000
down to it, it was like how many
cars, where are they going to 

2356
01:55:42,000 --> 01:55:44,040
be, you know, and what our 
contingencies look like. 

2357
01:55:44,040 --> 01:55:46,840
But, you know, briefing 
everybody in case you have 

2358
01:55:46,840 --> 01:55:48,960
anybody new out there, if you 
have ATFO or something, tell 

2359
01:55:48,960 --> 01:55:51,560
them the comms and tell them, 
you know, what are you know, we 

2360
01:55:51,560 --> 01:55:54,400
had a color system, you know, 
that if somebody called out 

2361
01:55:54,400 --> 01:55:57,720
yellow on the radio, then 
everybody would just work out 

2362
01:55:57,720 --> 01:55:59,800
that if there were, you know, 
elements that were potentially 

2363
01:55:59,800 --> 01:56:01,720
threatening in the area and 
somebody called red, we'd come 

2364
01:56:01,720 --> 01:56:05,000
in, you know, lights and sirens 
on your position like we ever 

2365
01:56:05,000 --> 01:56:07,080
called it. 
So we had, you know, some some 

2366
01:56:07,080 --> 01:56:09,840
panic button type stuff. 
But other than that, you know, 

2367
01:56:09,880 --> 01:56:12,200
having having a hasty OPS plan 
is important because then you 

2368
01:56:12,200 --> 01:56:14,560
don't do things that are really 
dumb and you don't end up with 

2369
01:56:14,560 --> 01:56:16,040
people who don't know how to get
on the radio. 

2370
01:56:16,040 --> 01:56:19,840
But yeah, but I'm not crazy 
about like having like a 2 hour 

2371
01:56:19,840 --> 01:56:23,400
OPS brief, you know, like when 
there's work to be done, like, 

2372
01:56:24,600 --> 01:56:25,640
yeah. 
And that's, and that's how SWAT 

2373
01:56:25,640 --> 01:56:26,720
does it. 
They go and they get, you know, 

2374
01:56:26,720 --> 01:56:29,360
they get all the pictures and 
then they put all the PowerPoint

2375
01:56:29,360 --> 01:56:31,160
up and you're like, Oh my God. 
Like really? 

2376
01:56:31,800 --> 01:56:33,680
It's a freak. 
It's a freaking row house, dude.

2377
01:56:33,680 --> 01:56:35,080
It's going to suck no matter 
what. 

2378
01:56:35,960 --> 01:56:38,800
They know if there's a shooting.
That's right, the. 

2379
01:56:39,040 --> 01:56:40,280
First things they're going to 
look at. 

2380
01:56:40,960 --> 01:56:45,160
Is exactly so you know, well, 
the lawyers, you know, they 

2381
01:56:45,160 --> 01:56:46,960
killed the fun out of the job, 
but a lot of times they also 

2382
01:56:46,960 --> 01:56:49,480
killed the capability of the job
because some of the, I mean, law

2383
01:56:49,480 --> 01:56:52,800
enforcement is spontaneous. 
It has to be it's, it's, it's by

2384
01:56:52,800 --> 01:56:55,520
the very, and maybe that's the 
thing too, because we've gone 

2385
01:56:55,520 --> 01:56:58,360
from being reactive to crimes, 
which is what we're supposed to 

2386
01:56:58,360 --> 01:57:01,240
do to being trying to prevent 
crime. 

2387
01:57:01,560 --> 01:57:05,960
I, I just, I love the idea of 
the pre crime era that we're 

2388
01:57:05,960 --> 01:57:09,240
trying to be in right now. 
So what do you think of that? 

2389
01:57:09,240 --> 01:57:11,200
So I talked to a guy the other 
day and I mentioned it on the 

2390
01:57:11,200 --> 01:57:13,640
group call, but this guy I 
talked to the last interview of 

2391
01:57:13,640 --> 01:57:17,120
people I want to hear from last 
week, George Hill said after 

2392
01:57:17,120 --> 01:57:20,320
911, the definition of national 
security changed dramatically 

2393
01:57:20,320 --> 01:57:23,840
and it changed as such. 
Prior to 911, the definition of 

2394
01:57:23,840 --> 01:57:27,520
national security was the 
protection of the American 

2395
01:57:27,520 --> 01:57:32,760
Federal Republic and the 
continuation of the Constitution

2396
01:57:32,760 --> 01:57:35,160
as the governing document. 
That was that was national 

2397
01:57:35,160 --> 01:57:37,920
security and everybody knew it 
and you could have casualties in

2398
01:57:37,920 --> 01:57:40,320
that. 
Obviously foreign and domestic 

2399
01:57:40,320 --> 01:57:42,040
is the is the enemy set for that
right. 

2400
01:57:42,160 --> 01:57:47,200
Just like we swore and after 911
and the mission moved to no 

2401
01:57:47,200 --> 01:57:51,360
American dies from a terrorist. 
And when that happened, that was

2402
01:57:51,360 --> 01:57:53,960
his take and he was an Intel guy
also a Marine by the way. 

2403
01:57:54,880 --> 01:57:57,080
So I I. 
Saw that I watched that. 

2404
01:57:57,200 --> 01:58:00,200
Yeah, I like, I like people who 
have a clear understanding that 

2405
01:58:00,200 --> 01:58:02,560
there is a mission set, that 
there has to be a task, any 

2406
01:58:02,560 --> 01:58:06,680
purpose. 
And when the when the task is 

2407
01:58:06,680 --> 01:58:09,600
the same, but the purpose is now
different than the purpose is 

2408
01:58:09,600 --> 01:58:12,840
moved. 
I don't know. 

2409
01:58:12,840 --> 01:58:15,320
Part of me thinks that there's 
some serious truth about how 

2410
01:58:15,320 --> 01:58:18,400
that killed the FBI in a lot of 
ways, at least the FBI that I 

2411
01:58:18,400 --> 01:58:20,280
wanted to be a part of. 
But you got to see it happen 

2412
01:58:20,280 --> 01:58:22,880
gradually because obviously and 
especially in an RA, it would 

2413
01:58:22,880 --> 01:58:24,760
have come to you last, I would 
think. 

2414
01:58:25,200 --> 01:58:27,240
Right. 
Did you see, did the Intel 

2415
01:58:27,240 --> 01:58:28,440
mission get to you guys out 
there? 

2416
01:58:28,440 --> 01:58:31,840
Was that part of the the creep 
or were you out in time? 

2417
01:58:34,520 --> 01:58:41,120
Not really, other than like we 
did have a special event with 

2418
01:58:41,120 --> 01:58:44,560
the Green Bay Packers. 
So we would participate in their

2419
01:58:44,880 --> 01:58:50,040
weekly security meetings and, 
and sort of there was always a 

2420
01:58:50,040 --> 01:58:52,880
threat analysis that would be 
done, you know, at the beginning

2421
01:58:52,880 --> 01:58:54,480
of the season by one of the 
analysts. 

2422
01:58:55,080 --> 01:58:57,720
But but. 
That's like local stuff. 

2423
01:58:57,720 --> 01:58:59,240
That seems fair. 
That seems like. 

2424
01:58:59,680 --> 01:59:01,560
Right, it's. 
Goodwill, it's community. 

2425
01:59:01,560 --> 01:59:04,280
That's not that's not like 
driving agents off their job. 

2426
01:59:05,160 --> 01:59:09,000
No, yeah. 
In fact, that was another area 

2427
01:59:09,000 --> 01:59:14,040
where I I was, I got sideways 
with headquarters because I had 

2428
01:59:14,040 --> 01:59:18,440
a this control file and the 
Packers would frequently contact

2429
01:59:18,480 --> 01:59:22,120
either myself or one of the 
other guys in the office and 

2430
01:59:22,600 --> 01:59:24,800
whether it was counterfeit 
tickets or counterfeit 

2431
01:59:24,800 --> 01:59:27,440
merchandise or a threat to a 
player or whatever, we used to 

2432
01:59:27,440 --> 01:59:29,840
just do it off. 
We wouldn't open a separate case

2433
01:59:29,840 --> 01:59:31,360
file. 
We would do all of this off this

2434
01:59:31,360 --> 01:59:33,080
control file. 
Apparently you're not supposed 

2435
01:59:33,080 --> 01:59:34,440
to do that. 
And. 

2436
01:59:35,160 --> 01:59:41,880
But it worked. 
What it blew up was there was a 

2437
01:59:41,880 --> 01:59:44,800
posting some guy was posting the
Bart's he was claiming it was 

2438
01:59:44,800 --> 01:59:50,840
Bart stars Super Bowl 2 ring on 
eBay and somebody contacted this

2439
01:59:50,840 --> 01:59:53,840
one Bart was still alive, but 
they contacted the stars and 

2440
01:59:53,840 --> 01:59:56,560
talked to Bart's wife Chariots 
said why is why are you guys 

2441
01:59:56,560 --> 01:59:59,400
selling this ring? 
That's she checked the safe. 

2442
01:59:59,600 --> 02:00:03,520
Nope, that's not our ring. 
So she called Mark Murphy, the 

2443
02:00:03,520 --> 02:00:06,720
Packers, who contacted Doug 
Collins, who's out of security 

2444
02:00:06,720 --> 02:00:09,880
for the Packers, and then. 
He contacted me and he said, 

2445
02:00:09,880 --> 02:00:12,400
hey, can you do some follow up 
with this? 

2446
02:00:12,400 --> 02:00:15,560
I said, yeah. 
So I contacted eBay. 

2447
02:00:15,560 --> 02:00:17,080
They didn't even ask for a 
subpoena. 

2448
02:00:17,080 --> 02:00:20,360
They just said send us a letter 
on letterhead because they just 

2449
02:00:20,360 --> 02:00:23,480
had the screen name of this guy 
and they gave me his name. 

2450
02:00:23,880 --> 02:00:27,160
And I wasn't, I don't even know 
if we had a crime, perhaps an 

2451
02:00:27,160 --> 02:00:30,480
attempted wire fraud, you know, 
but no one had bought it or 

2452
02:00:30,480 --> 02:00:31,760
anything. 
But I was just trying to get him

2453
02:00:31,800 --> 02:00:35,240
to take it down. 
And so he lived in Maryland. 

2454
02:00:35,240 --> 02:00:37,320
I sent, this is where I made my 
mistake. 

2455
02:00:37,320 --> 02:00:39,800
I sent the lead out to the 
Baltimore division to go and 

2456
02:00:39,800 --> 02:00:43,120
interview this guy and I even 
scripted out some questions and 

2457
02:00:43,120 --> 02:00:45,880
the supervisor said, hey, you 
can't do this. 

2458
02:00:46,320 --> 02:00:49,280
We can't do what? 
You can't send out leads on a 

2459
02:00:49,280 --> 02:00:51,000
control file. 
Said okay, sorry about that. 

2460
02:00:51,080 --> 02:00:54,080
So I just interviewed the guy 
over the phone, right then the 

2461
02:00:54,480 --> 02:00:57,440
supervisor must have tipped off 
somebody at headquarters and the

2462
02:00:57,440 --> 02:01:01,160
file got audited and we kind of 
got slapped on the wrist and 

2463
02:01:01,160 --> 02:01:03,840
see, you have to go back and re 
serialize all of these. 

2464
02:01:04,200 --> 02:01:05,920
Yeah, that sounds like a 
terrible pain in the ass. 

2465
02:01:05,920 --> 02:01:07,440
Of course. 
Yeah, they want new, they want 

2466
02:01:07,440 --> 02:01:09,320
new things. 
Well, now they put it under 

2467
02:01:09,320 --> 02:01:11,520
assessments, they put it under 
like a, you know, an area 

2468
02:01:11,520 --> 02:01:12,840
security assessment or 
something. 

2469
02:01:12,840 --> 02:01:16,880
So there, I mean, there's ways 
to do it, but but that, but you 

2470
02:01:16,880 --> 02:01:19,720
were solving the community 
problem even like even that is 

2471
02:01:19,720 --> 02:01:21,160
like that's not an intelligence 
problem. 

2472
02:01:21,160 --> 02:01:23,120
That's a that's a local 
reactive. 

2473
02:01:24,000 --> 02:01:25,800
That's that's being a good 
member of your community. 

2474
02:01:26,600 --> 02:01:31,000
So I mean and then. 
George's point I think is, is a 

2475
02:01:31,000 --> 02:01:33,160
good one. 
And I think that's what opens 

2476
02:01:33,160 --> 02:01:36,960
the door to, you know, kind of a
soft tyranny. 

2477
02:01:36,960 --> 02:01:40,800
It's like, you know, what's the 
old saying, those people that 

2478
02:01:40,800 --> 02:01:42,720
are willing to give up a little 
bit of their liberty for 

2479
02:01:42,720 --> 02:01:45,520
security end up either? 
Correct. 

2480
02:01:45,520 --> 02:01:47,520
Yeah, essentially neither or. 
Something like that. 

2481
02:01:47,680 --> 02:01:51,360
Just like the Thomas Jefferson 
piece and and I think that's the

2482
02:01:51,360 --> 02:01:53,400
thing, right? 
It's like freedom is dangerous 

2483
02:01:53,400 --> 02:01:56,280
and we're getting a little bit 
of glitch on your video, but 

2484
02:01:56,280 --> 02:01:59,280
that's it's not your fault. 
It's my fault, I'm sure from my 

2485
02:01:59,280 --> 02:02:02,720
connection. 
But yeah, that's that's the 

2486
02:02:02,720 --> 02:02:06,120
thing, right? 
Like American, so American 

2487
02:02:06,120 --> 02:02:08,640
liberty is, is a little 
dangerous and it and it comes 

2488
02:02:08,640 --> 02:02:10,840
with a little bit of risk and 
maybe a lot of better risk 

2489
02:02:10,840 --> 02:02:13,920
depending on where you live. 
So this is, I think, really an 

2490
02:02:13,920 --> 02:02:17,080
important discussion that we're 
having and just that you got to 

2491
02:02:17,080 --> 02:02:21,920
have a kind of Intel free career
all the way up until until 2017,

2492
02:02:21,920 --> 02:02:23,600
which is about when my time took
over. 

2493
02:02:25,960 --> 02:02:28,960
But when people talk about, you 
know, Steve, Fred and I are kind

2494
02:02:28,960 --> 02:02:32,840
of pissy about right the the 
good men and women of the FBI, 

2495
02:02:33,360 --> 02:02:35,200
you know, it's like I'm done 
hearing about them. 

2496
02:02:36,800 --> 02:02:41,000
I think that there's a lot of 
them that do just work like the 

2497
02:02:41,000 --> 02:02:42,800
guys that are in my RA, like 
they don't have any. 

2498
02:02:42,800 --> 02:02:43,920
I don't need beef with those 
guys. 

2499
02:02:43,920 --> 02:02:45,440
They're just doing their job. 
They're doing the thing you 

2500
02:02:45,440 --> 02:02:47,920
expect. 
They're doing local assists and 

2501
02:02:47,920 --> 02:02:52,320
they're doing, you know, federal
crimes at a local level a lot 

2502
02:02:52,320 --> 02:02:55,240
like you got to do. 
So the only problem that I 

2503
02:02:55,240 --> 02:02:58,240
really have with these people is
when COVID popped up. 

2504
02:02:58,920 --> 02:03:02,280
And I know that's a big thing 
that you've done since you've 

2505
02:03:02,280 --> 02:03:04,160
left the Bureau and you've been 
working on it on the state 

2506
02:03:04,160 --> 02:03:05,920
level. 
In fact, you told me that a lot 

2507
02:03:05,920 --> 02:03:09,360
of our our complaints and our 
letters are like, they look 

2508
02:03:09,360 --> 02:03:11,720
like, yeah, it looks like we're 
plagiarizing up each other. 

2509
02:03:14,000 --> 02:03:17,280
Tell me, let me let me prime 
that real quick. 

2510
02:03:17,600 --> 02:03:21,160
My big issue is, is when people 
know that something is wrong and

2511
02:03:21,160 --> 02:03:23,840
they're willing to go along with
it because it's better than 

2512
02:03:23,840 --> 02:03:28,800
losing their job and that 
they're willing to enforce 

2513
02:03:28,800 --> 02:03:32,680
policies and or non policies. 
Because as we know, the FBI has 

2514
02:03:32,680 --> 02:03:34,600
like a specific way of putting 
in a policy. 

2515
02:03:34,800 --> 02:03:36,240
And sometimes they just make it 
up as they go. 

2516
02:03:36,240 --> 02:03:37,880
So if they're just sending out 
an e-mail saying this is what 

2517
02:03:37,880 --> 02:03:39,720
you have to do, I'm not going to
do that. 

2518
02:03:40,560 --> 02:03:45,160
But but when people start going 
going along to get along, that's

2519
02:03:45,160 --> 02:03:48,520
when I started saying that maybe
those people that were not 

2520
02:03:48,520 --> 02:03:51,800
involved in any of the politics 
of it are still part of the 

2521
02:03:51,800 --> 02:03:54,320
problem. 
And, you know, tell people a 

2522
02:03:54,320 --> 02:03:56,600
little bit about what your what 
your state level was. 

2523
02:03:56,600 --> 02:03:58,920
And I think we'll see some 
parallels as far as what I saw. 

2524
02:03:58,920 --> 02:04:03,480
Nationally, yeah. 
So I fully anticipate. 

2525
02:04:03,480 --> 02:04:06,800
So I work for the my kind of my 
retirement gig, I guess. 

2526
02:04:06,800 --> 02:04:09,920
I work for the State of 
Wisconsin Department of Justice 

2527
02:04:09,920 --> 02:04:11,320
and the Training and Standards 
Bureau. 

2528
02:04:11,840 --> 02:04:14,320
And it's it's a really enjoyable
gig. 

2529
02:04:15,320 --> 02:04:18,120
I still get to work with law 
enforcement, but I don't want to

2530
02:04:18,120 --> 02:04:21,840
have to deal with attorneys or 
carry my phone on the weekends, 

2531
02:04:21,840 --> 02:04:24,520
you know, and I travel around 
the state. 

2532
02:04:24,520 --> 02:04:28,200
We have 21 academies in the 
state and I always get treated 

2533
02:04:28,200 --> 02:04:30,080
very well. 
It's although my wife reminds me

2534
02:04:30,080 --> 02:04:31,800
it's not because they think 
you're a small guy. 

2535
02:04:31,800 --> 02:04:32,960
It's because you're from the 
state. 

2536
02:04:32,960 --> 02:04:38,920
You have an oversight quality 
shirts, which is true, but but I

2537
02:04:38,920 --> 02:04:47,360
saw when COVID-19 hit in March 
of 2020, of course the state of 

2538
02:04:47,360 --> 02:04:50,720
Wisconsin, like all the other 
states had the governor issued A

2539
02:04:50,720 --> 02:04:55,520
safer home order and it wasn't 
long before he started to abuse 

2540
02:04:55,800 --> 02:04:58,000
his authority. 
I mean I think he only has a 30 

2541
02:04:58,000 --> 02:05:00,440
day authority to do that and he 
kept extending it in the 

2542
02:05:00,440 --> 02:05:03,160
legislature. 
Really, even though it's a 

2543
02:05:03,160 --> 02:05:06,760
Republican controlled 
legislature was not in my 

2544
02:05:06,760 --> 02:05:10,400
opinion, was not doing their job
in in a proper check and balance

2545
02:05:10,400 --> 02:05:15,080
role to basically slapped the 
governor back, including the he 

2546
02:05:15,400 --> 02:05:18,040
had a mass mandate statewide, 
which is just absurd. 

2547
02:05:18,040 --> 02:05:21,800
But that's a separate issue. 
So based on that and the fact 

2548
02:05:21,800 --> 02:05:26,160
that the attorney general is a 
very leftist, the anti law 

2549
02:05:26,160 --> 02:05:30,120
enforcement attorney general, I 
was fully anticipating that 

2550
02:05:30,120 --> 02:05:32,600
there was going to be a jab 
mandate. 

2551
02:05:33,800 --> 02:05:38,160
So probably in like May of 2021.
So I'm a Catholic. 

2552
02:05:38,160 --> 02:05:40,720
I, I consulted with my parish 
priest. 

2553
02:05:41,440 --> 02:05:45,920
So it was just very supportive. 
I said, hey, you know, I'm going

2554
02:05:45,920 --> 02:05:49,960
to prepare a letter and I'd like
to mention your name and the 

2555
02:05:49,960 --> 02:05:53,240
fact that, you know, I consulted
with you that these are the 

2556
02:05:53,240 --> 02:05:58,160
reasons why I have a religious, 
why I'm requesting a religious 

2557
02:05:58,160 --> 02:06:01,000
exemption because I object to 
the way that these vaccines were

2558
02:06:01,000 --> 02:06:04,760
developed using a boarded fetal 
lines did. 

2559
02:06:04,800 --> 02:06:07,360
You did you see my AI religious 
accommodation request by the 

2560
02:06:07,360 --> 02:06:08,960
way? 
No, I don't think I did all 

2561
02:06:09,040 --> 02:06:09,320
right. 
What? 

2562
02:06:09,520 --> 02:06:11,000
Else, yeah, we wrote the same 
things. 

2563
02:06:11,440 --> 02:06:15,760
And I'm also a Catholic. 
So like I said, people will find

2564
02:06:15,760 --> 02:06:18,520
out that if they compare notes 
like we, we didn't plagiarize 

2565
02:06:18,520 --> 02:06:20,000
off each other. 
It's just there's a lot of 

2566
02:06:20,000 --> 02:06:22,840
people that came to these these 
decisions at the same time for 

2567
02:06:22,840 --> 02:06:25,000
the same reasons. 
Right. 

2568
02:06:25,320 --> 02:06:26,800
Yeah. 
So what? 

2569
02:06:27,400 --> 02:06:30,720
The state kind of threw a 
curveball because then in August

2570
02:06:30,720 --> 02:06:38,960
of 2021, the Department of 
Administration issued a rule 

2571
02:06:38,960 --> 02:06:42,040
that essentially said all it 
really wasn't all it was only 

2572
02:06:42,360 --> 02:06:44,360
this is where I also had an 
issue with it was only of 

2573
02:06:44,400 --> 02:06:47,320
employees in the executive 
branch Wisconsin government. 

2574
02:06:47,320 --> 02:06:49,680
It didn't apply to the 
legislative or judicial branch 

2575
02:06:49,680 --> 02:06:52,400
because the governor doesn't 
control those people, right. 

2576
02:06:52,440 --> 02:06:56,840
But said that you will have you 
have to report your vaccination 

2577
02:06:56,840 --> 02:07:01,560
status into PeopleSoft, which is
the human resources portal. 

2578
02:07:03,040 --> 02:07:05,480
Who knows even how secure that 
is, but that that's really 

2579
02:07:05,480 --> 02:07:08,480
beside the point. 
And, you know, this is medical, 

2580
02:07:08,760 --> 02:07:12,760
private medical information. 
You know, to me it was similar 

2581
02:07:12,760 --> 02:07:15,920
to trying to, you know, asking 
someone if they're HIV positive,

2582
02:07:16,600 --> 02:07:18,160
which you're not allowed to do 
that either. 

2583
02:07:18,240 --> 02:07:21,520
And it was very ambiguous 
though, you know, the guidance 

2584
02:07:21,520 --> 02:07:25,800
just came out and there was it 
had like the logistical 

2585
02:07:25,800 --> 02:07:30,920
instructions, how to log in and 
how to record what, whether you 

2586
02:07:30,920 --> 02:07:34,600
took Johnson and Johnson, Pfizer
or Moderna or if you were on, 

2587
02:07:34,680 --> 02:07:37,760
you had to do an attestation 
that were unvaccinated. 

2588
02:07:37,880 --> 02:07:39,320
Right. 
So what month what? 

2589
02:07:39,520 --> 02:07:40,760
Month. 
Was it going to play that game? 

2590
02:07:40,840 --> 02:07:45,080
That was in May, you think? 
No, this was in August 2021. 

2591
02:07:45,240 --> 02:07:46,200
OK, so we're. 
Yeah. 

2592
02:07:46,200 --> 02:07:48,760
So the Bureau was on the same 
game, I think probably in August

2593
02:07:48,760 --> 02:07:55,000
or September. 
Yeah, so, so I, I contacted our 

2594
02:07:55,000 --> 02:07:58,440
human resources and they said 
because it wasn't spelled out in

2595
02:07:58,440 --> 02:08:02,640
the guidance, what are the 
consequences for someone who 

2596
02:08:02,640 --> 02:08:05,680
doesn't comply with this, right?
Because it just said employees 

2597
02:08:05,680 --> 02:08:07,800
who do not comply may be subject
to discipline. 

2598
02:08:08,240 --> 02:08:11,240
Well, is that a nasty e-mail or 
is that termination right? 

2599
02:08:11,240 --> 02:08:13,000
You know, it's kind of a wide 
variety there. 

2600
02:08:13,440 --> 02:08:17,160
And it wasn't really the human 
resources person's fault, but 

2601
02:08:17,280 --> 02:08:19,120
they had no idea. 
So we don't know. 

2602
02:08:19,120 --> 02:08:20,640
We haven't been given any 
guidance either. 

2603
02:08:21,120 --> 02:08:23,760
So I just ignored it. 
I mean, they kept, I got these 

2604
02:08:23,760 --> 02:08:27,560
weekly emails that you know, 
you're required to provide your 

2605
02:08:27,560 --> 02:08:30,320
vaccination status. 
And then the deadline came and 

2606
02:08:30,320 --> 02:08:36,040
went in probably a week after 
that in sometime in September or

2607
02:08:36,040 --> 02:08:39,560
maybe might have been October of
2021, there was a follow up in 

2608
02:08:39,560 --> 02:08:41,440
it. 
The guidance was anyone who was 

2609
02:08:41,520 --> 02:08:46,040
either unvaccinated or did not 
report the vaccination status or

2610
02:08:46,040 --> 02:08:49,000
subject to weekly COVID tests. 
So they started sending me these

2611
02:08:49,000 --> 02:08:54,600
kits, which I never asked for. 
And I just once again, I 

2612
02:08:54,600 --> 02:08:57,880
contacted human resources and I 
said, hey, what can you tell me?

2613
02:08:57,880 --> 02:08:59,320
Has there been an update? 
You know, what's the 

2614
02:08:59,320 --> 02:09:01,400
consequences for someone who 
doesn't comply with this? 

2615
02:09:01,600 --> 02:09:05,640
But we don't know. 
And so they did eventually 

2616
02:09:05,640 --> 02:09:08,400
establish A COVID-19 
disciplinary tract, like they 

2617
02:09:08,400 --> 02:09:10,160
were making this up on the fly, 
right? 

2618
02:09:10,320 --> 02:09:18,120
And so in November of last of 
2021, I essentially got ordered 

2619
02:09:18,120 --> 02:09:21,200
to appear. 
Now this is all done via Zoom, 

2620
02:09:21,200 --> 02:09:26,120
but to appear for a 
investigatory earring and that 

2621
02:09:26,120 --> 02:09:29,600
was it was kind of comical. 
You know, it was ladies from 

2622
02:09:29,600 --> 02:09:33,320
human resources and you know, 
they were asking me, do you 

2623
02:09:33,320 --> 02:09:38,800
admit that you are following the
state of Wisconsin COVID-19 

2624
02:09:38,800 --> 02:09:40,880
policy and you haven't been 
submitting your test results? 

2625
02:09:40,880 --> 02:09:44,800
They said yes, but I'll I'm 
maintaining that I'm not 

2626
02:09:44,800 --> 02:09:47,560
obligated to follow a unlawful 
policy. 

2627
02:09:47,560 --> 02:09:53,400
And as you know, Kyle, there's a
federal statute final 21360 

2628
02:09:53,400 --> 02:09:58,240
point BBB or something that says
any product that's under 

2629
02:09:58,240 --> 02:10:02,400
emergency use authorization, 
which wasn't just the jabs 

2630
02:10:02,400 --> 02:10:04,440
investigates were never approved
by the FDA they. 

2631
02:10:04,440 --> 02:10:09,400
Still, still aren't. 
Still aren't and still consent 

2632
02:10:09,400 --> 02:10:12,400
is absolutely essential and 
people have the right to opt 

2633
02:10:12,400 --> 02:10:14,400
out. 
Now the state of Wisconsin never

2634
02:10:14,400 --> 02:10:16,520
told people that. 
They just said you either do 

2635
02:10:16,520 --> 02:10:18,520
this or you're going to be 
disciplined. 

2636
02:10:19,200 --> 02:10:22,400
And I started doing some 
research and, and that's kind of

2637
02:10:22,400 --> 02:10:25,680
stumbled across this. 
So, you know, these unelected 

2638
02:10:25,680 --> 02:10:28,440
bureaucrats like Joel Brennan, 
who is the guy from the 

2639
02:10:28,720 --> 02:10:31,520
administrator of the OA doesn't 
have the authority to all 

2640
02:10:31,520 --> 02:10:35,840
supersede federal law, but it 
didn't really matter. 

2641
02:10:35,840 --> 02:10:41,560
So I had this hearing and then 
the human resources lady says, 

2642
02:10:41,560 --> 02:10:45,800
well, the next step in the 
process is that was called the 

2643
02:10:45,800 --> 02:10:48,320
investigatory hearing. 
The next step of the process was

2644
02:10:48,320 --> 02:10:50,000
pre disciplinary hearing. 
Yes. 

2645
02:10:50,080 --> 02:10:53,240
So there's about a two week gap.
And I, I contacted her and I 

2646
02:10:53,240 --> 02:10:55,880
said, hey, I'd like to get a 
copy of your report. 

2647
02:10:56,640 --> 02:10:59,080
I assume you prepared some. 
Well, you're not entitled to 

2648
02:10:59,160 --> 02:11:02,080
that. 
I said, you know, I know it's 

2649
02:11:02,080 --> 02:11:05,480
not a criminal proceeding, but 
it's kind of like discovery. 

2650
02:11:05,480 --> 02:11:07,400
Shouldn't I be able to see? 
She said no. 

2651
02:11:07,440 --> 02:11:09,720
And I said, well, you can you 
consider this an open records 

2652
02:11:09,720 --> 02:11:12,800
request then? 
And she said, well, there's one 

2653
02:11:12,800 --> 02:11:15,200
of the exemptions in the open 
records request is I'm going for

2654
02:11:15,360 --> 02:11:17,840
investigations. 
But I was on the subject of the 

2655
02:11:17,840 --> 02:11:20,720
investigation. 
You think I, I at least have a 

2656
02:11:20,720 --> 02:11:22,640
copy of it? 
And she said, no, you're not 

2657
02:11:22,640 --> 02:11:24,520
getting it. 
It's kind of a minor point, but.

2658
02:11:25,200 --> 02:11:27,800
No, but it goes to show, yeah, 
they're just making it up as 

2659
02:11:27,800 --> 02:11:31,160
they go and there's no due 
process and they're not allowing

2660
02:11:31,160 --> 02:11:33,040
you to. 
You know, I, I made a similar 

2661
02:11:33,040 --> 02:11:35,200
point to one of my bosses when 
he was saying, you know, 

2662
02:11:35,200 --> 02:11:38,680
somebody said that you said 
something offensive and I said, 

2663
02:11:38,680 --> 02:11:40,520
well, who was it? 
And he goes, well, I can't tell 

2664
02:11:40,520 --> 02:11:42,280
you. 
And I go, what do they say? 

2665
02:11:42,520 --> 02:11:44,120
And he goes, well, I can't tell 
you that because you'll know who

2666
02:11:44,120 --> 02:11:46,640
they are. 
And I go look, as a nominally, 

2667
02:11:46,640 --> 02:11:51,080
constitutionally, you know, 
branded sort of office that 

2668
02:11:51,080 --> 02:11:53,440
we're here in the FBI. 
Like it would be really great if

2669
02:11:53,440 --> 02:11:55,360
somebody who wanted to accuse me
would accuse me to my face. 

2670
02:11:55,360 --> 02:11:56,480
And then you'd give me three 
options. 

2671
02:11:56,680 --> 02:11:58,600
My option is number 1. 
I can tell them to piss off and 

2672
02:11:58,600 --> 02:12:00,160
then you can just split me as 
you see fit. 

2673
02:12:00,680 --> 02:12:03,520
I can apologize if it needs to 
be apologized. 

2674
02:12:03,520 --> 02:12:05,760
Or I can, you know, tell them 
they misunderstood. 

2675
02:12:05,760 --> 02:12:07,120
And we can try to come to a 
meeting of the minds. 

2676
02:12:07,240 --> 02:12:09,320
Like there's, there's some 
things that have to happen. 

2677
02:12:09,720 --> 02:12:11,160
And by the way, they could have 
come to me directly. 

2678
02:12:11,160 --> 02:12:13,360
I'm super reasonable, but I'm 
happy to sit down with anybody. 

2679
02:12:13,360 --> 02:12:16,440
But you're not going to let me 
face my accuser, you know, like 

2680
02:12:17,480 --> 02:12:20,280
like, like, yeah, can I, can I 
at least know the, the extent of

2681
02:12:20,280 --> 02:12:22,440
the charges against me that that
are being levied? 

2682
02:12:22,440 --> 02:12:23,960
Because otherwise how am I going
to course correct? 

2683
02:12:24,160 --> 02:12:26,320
And in the same way, it's like 
you don't even know what you're 

2684
02:12:26,320 --> 02:12:28,960
facing and what they came up 
with and what they decided those

2685
02:12:28,960 --> 02:12:31,520
things meant. 
So I mean, it's not a minor 

2686
02:12:31,520 --> 02:12:33,360
point per SE. 
I mean, I think it's important, 

2687
02:12:33,360 --> 02:12:36,400
but. 
They weren't, I don't think they

2688
02:12:36,400 --> 02:12:39,080
were anticipating because 
because of my background, I was 

2689
02:12:39,080 --> 02:12:41,600
kind of maybe a thorn in their 
side. 

2690
02:12:41,600 --> 02:12:44,560
But you know, knowing about 
legal process and everything, I 

2691
02:12:44,560 --> 02:12:46,000
said, hey, I'd just like a copy 
of the report. 

2692
02:12:46,000 --> 02:12:49,200
So when it came time for the pre
disciplinary hearing, it was 

2693
02:12:49,520 --> 02:12:53,120
essentially a done deal. 
I mean, I did prepare a 

2694
02:12:53,120 --> 02:12:55,880
statement. 
So I read a side like a four 

2695
02:12:55,880 --> 02:12:58,000
page statement that I wanted to 
get on the record. 

2696
02:12:58,120 --> 02:13:02,480
And because my plan was, so then
you have standing and of course,

2697
02:13:02,480 --> 02:13:04,160
you have to be part of a 
protected class. 

2698
02:13:04,440 --> 02:13:08,320
So then I was. 
So I was deemed unfit for duty, 

2699
02:13:08,880 --> 02:13:11,960
which, by the way, I could find 
no definition of that term in 

2700
02:13:11,960 --> 02:13:14,520
the human resources. 
And it was, Yeah, particularly 

2701
02:13:14,520 --> 02:13:15,680
in your type of work. 
Right. 

2702
02:13:15,680 --> 02:13:17,760
Like this is not like, it's not 
like there's a physical 

2703
02:13:17,760 --> 02:13:20,280
requirement or something yet, 
no. 

2704
02:13:20,720 --> 02:13:24,240
And my health was fine, of 
course, perfectly. 

2705
02:13:24,240 --> 02:13:25,880
My health had not changed from 
the day before. 

2706
02:13:25,880 --> 02:13:27,200
And suddenly I'm on fit for 
duty. 

2707
02:13:27,680 --> 02:13:32,600
And so I in, in Wisconsin, they 
had a, this is not a federal 

2708
02:13:32,600 --> 02:13:37,080
level, but you can claim 
they're, it's unlawful to 

2709
02:13:37,080 --> 02:13:41,320
discriminate against an employee
or an applicant for use for non 

2710
02:13:41,320 --> 02:13:45,680
use of a lawful product. 
So I use that as one of my 

2711
02:13:45,680 --> 02:13:46,960
grounds. 
And then there's, it's also 

2712
02:13:46,960 --> 02:13:50,120
unlawful to require genetic 
testing as a condition of 

2713
02:13:50,120 --> 02:13:52,560
employment. 
Now that was part of my argument

2714
02:13:52,560 --> 02:13:54,240
as well. 
You're, you're asking me to take

2715
02:13:54,240 --> 02:13:58,040
a swab and put it in my nose, 
which is going to contain DNA as

2716
02:13:58,040 --> 02:14:00,080
a by product. 
And then they send it off the 

2717
02:14:00,080 --> 02:14:03,080
folds of technologies and 
they're under no obligation to 

2718
02:14:03,080 --> 02:14:04,560
destroy it. 
They could sell it to the 

2719
02:14:04,560 --> 02:14:06,080
Chinese. 
You're asking me to waive my 

2720
02:14:06,080 --> 02:14:11,320
privacy rights and my DNA. 
And so, and then it goes to DWD,

2721
02:14:11,320 --> 02:14:16,480
which is a state Department of 
workforce development that that 

2722
02:14:16,480 --> 02:14:18,880
does these discrimination 
investigations. 

2723
02:14:19,440 --> 02:14:22,880
And they, so they respond to 
DOJDOJ had the opportunity to 

2724
02:14:22,880 --> 02:14:25,000
mediate this. 
They could have just said, all 

2725
02:14:25,000 --> 02:14:27,400
right, this is silly. 
But no, no, they assigned two 

2726
02:14:27,400 --> 02:14:30,840
different attorneys to rebut my 
claims. 

2727
02:14:31,520 --> 02:14:35,480
And the first, the first 
argument was, and of course I 

2728
02:14:35,480 --> 02:14:38,200
was arguing that I had. 
So that was my protected class 

2729
02:14:38,200 --> 02:14:42,400
in my standing, even though I 
hadn't lost any pay because they

2730
02:14:42,560 --> 02:14:44,520
I was unfit for duty. 
They said, well, you can work 

2731
02:14:44,520 --> 02:14:49,160
from home, but my job requires 
me to do a lot of in person when

2732
02:14:49,160 --> 02:14:50,560
I go and visit, right? 
Yeah. 

2733
02:14:50,560 --> 02:14:51,920
You just said you're doing 
standards. 

2734
02:14:51,920 --> 02:14:55,040
You're doing standards in a 
Yeah, so. 

2735
02:14:56,760 --> 02:14:59,080
And they didn't really argue the
standing part of it, but they 

2736
02:14:59,080 --> 02:15:03,640
said that the. 
One attorney said this claim of 

2737
02:15:04,320 --> 02:15:08,200
use or non use of a lawful 
product only applies to alcohol 

2738
02:15:08,200 --> 02:15:10,760
and tobacco doesn't say that. 
No, it doesn't. 

2739
02:15:10,880 --> 02:15:13,680
It turns out nowhere does it say
that that, but that's based on 

2740
02:15:13,680 --> 02:15:16,560
precedence I guess. 
And then they. 

2741
02:15:16,800 --> 02:15:20,600
Knocked down my my claim. 
That this is a form of genetic 

2742
02:15:20,600 --> 02:15:23,720
testing by saying, using Mr. 
Mullen's argument, the 

2743
02:15:24,240 --> 02:15:27,680
government or an employer would 
not be allowed to do urinalysis 

2744
02:15:27,680 --> 02:15:29,120
testing 'cause that contains 
DNA. 

2745
02:15:29,440 --> 02:15:32,880
The difference is that this 
policy was not rationally 

2746
02:15:32,880 --> 02:15:34,920
related to a legitimate 
government purpose. 

2747
02:15:35,080 --> 02:15:38,240
In other words, if their claim 
was we want to have a safe work 

2748
02:15:38,240 --> 02:15:41,400
environment, therefore we're 
requiring people, well, then you

2749
02:15:41,400 --> 02:15:44,360
should be requiring everyone to 
test because whether you're 

2750
02:15:44,360 --> 02:15:47,040
vaccinated or not, you could 
still catch COVID and you could 

2751
02:15:47,040 --> 02:15:48,520
still. 
And that's the big thing. 

2752
02:15:48,520 --> 02:15:51,520
At that point, we knew that it 
was everybody was getting it. 

2753
02:15:51,520 --> 02:15:53,120
It didn't matter what your 
status was. 

2754
02:15:53,120 --> 02:15:55,480
So now you are one. 100% being 
discriminatory. 

2755
02:15:55,480 --> 02:15:57,560
I'm going to, I'm going to 
bounce something off you because

2756
02:15:57,560 --> 02:16:00,200
this is what our attorneys 
recommended for us and our video

2757
02:16:00,200 --> 02:16:01,600
splits you with the audience so 
good. 

2758
02:16:01,840 --> 02:16:07,960
So this is our attorneys. 
The in the, the federal scenario

2759
02:16:07,960 --> 02:16:10,720
suggested that we make an 
argument referred to as 

2760
02:16:10,840 --> 02:16:15,080
perceived disability 
discrimination because you can't

2761
02:16:15,080 --> 02:16:17,600
discriminate against someone for
any disability. 

2762
02:16:18,000 --> 02:16:22,360
And there's Supreme Court 
precedent saying that having an 

2763
02:16:22,360 --> 02:16:25,920
infectious disease, and in this 
case I'm pretty sure it was HIV,

2764
02:16:26,480 --> 02:16:30,960
is a protected status and that's
a protective disability. 

2765
02:16:31,480 --> 02:16:34,320
And So what they were arguing 
and what we, what I argued in my

2766
02:16:34,320 --> 02:16:38,280
EEO was that essentially the FBI
was treating me as though I 

2767
02:16:38,280 --> 02:16:42,920
either had or I was in an 
imminent danger of contracting 

2768
02:16:43,320 --> 02:16:46,080
an infectious disease, which 
makes me a protected status. 

2769
02:16:46,200 --> 02:16:49,920
Since they were treating me as 
though I had it, that made it, 

2770
02:16:50,639 --> 02:16:52,879
that made it a disability that 
we can argue on behalf of. 

2771
02:16:53,160 --> 02:16:55,120
Now, of course, the FBI 
investigates their own EEO 

2772
02:16:55,120 --> 02:16:56,639
complaints. 
So they found themselves to be 

2773
02:16:56,639 --> 02:17:02,200
not guilty of the EO violations 
despite the 11 retaliations that

2774
02:17:02,200 --> 02:17:03,440
I had. 
Documents which are pretty 

2775
02:17:03,440 --> 02:17:04,959
funny. 
And I I detailed that on a 

2776
02:17:04,959 --> 02:17:07,840
podcast a little earlier. 
So, but yeah, it's funny because

2777
02:17:07,840 --> 02:17:10,080
you go through you. 
It's like, well, that's not what

2778
02:17:10,080 --> 02:17:12,000
the, you know, this not, that's 
not what the law means. 

2779
02:17:12,000 --> 02:17:13,480
It's like, well, that's what the
law says. 

2780
02:17:13,920 --> 02:17:17,000
Like, I'm, you know, you, you 
and I don't play attorneys, not 

2781
02:17:17,000 --> 02:17:19,840
even on TV. 
And yet we can read the plain 

2782
02:17:19,840 --> 02:17:22,520
letter of the statute and we can
make reasonable determinations 

2783
02:17:22,520 --> 02:17:24,400
because we did it. 
And that's part of the job. 

2784
02:17:24,920 --> 02:17:27,760
So it's funny when they come at 
you with this like BS case law, 

2785
02:17:27,799 --> 02:17:30,600
it's like, well, maybe so, but 
like the broad interpretation of

2786
02:17:30,600 --> 02:17:34,120
the, the actual words, you know,
just because it hasn't been, it 

2787
02:17:34,200 --> 02:17:36,080
hasn't been applied to the 
situation before, it doesn't 

2788
02:17:36,080 --> 02:17:37,520
mean it doesn't apply to the 
situation. 

2789
02:17:38,559 --> 02:17:42,760
Yeah. 
And unfortunately, the way to to

2790
02:17:42,799 --> 02:17:44,600
fight back these types of 
policies. 

2791
02:17:44,600 --> 02:17:48,400
Is you need mass non compliance 
when you're working, you know, 

2792
02:17:48,400 --> 02:17:51,559
for a government entity and I 
get it. 

2793
02:17:51,600 --> 02:17:56,160
You know, I I I agree with you 
earlier point it's but it's easy

2794
02:17:56,160 --> 02:17:58,959
for me to get on my high horses.
So I'm going to fight back 

2795
02:17:58,959 --> 02:18:00,400
against this. 
I have my pension. 

2796
02:18:00,480 --> 02:18:04,120
I did not that I, you know, 
wanted to lose my job, but if 

2797
02:18:04,120 --> 02:18:07,879
that's what was going to happen,
although I suspect, you know, 

2798
02:18:07,879 --> 02:18:10,000
that that building's full of 
attorneys, they probably 

2799
02:18:10,000 --> 02:18:12,760
realize, hey, if we fire this 
guy, he's probably going to have

2800
02:18:12,760 --> 02:18:15,719
a pretty good on pro termination
lawsuit because there was 

2801
02:18:15,719 --> 02:18:17,719
nothing in my performance that 
would have justified 

2802
02:18:17,719 --> 02:18:19,760
termination. 
Although that's we've had plenty

2803
02:18:19,760 --> 02:18:22,200
of other people that have lost, 
like including active duty 

2804
02:18:22,200 --> 02:18:27,520
military, right, that have been 
bounced out and for for taking a

2805
02:18:27,520 --> 02:18:30,559
stand for refusing to do. 
And we now know, I mean, these 

2806
02:18:30,959 --> 02:18:32,879
these vaccines are not safe and 
effective. 

2807
02:18:32,879 --> 02:18:37,000
People were lied to. 
And you see this, DeMar Hamlin, 

2808
02:18:37,000 --> 02:18:40,920
for example, I mean, I don't buy
this notion that he had a 

2809
02:18:42,040 --> 02:18:45,480
cardiac arrest because, you 
know, a particularly hard 

2810
02:18:45,480 --> 02:18:47,719
tackle. 
I mean, it looked pretty routine

2811
02:18:47,719 --> 02:18:49,639
to me. 
And yeah, I mean, even, yeah, 

2812
02:18:49,719 --> 02:18:51,799
even if you stay out of the 
speculative realm on things like

2813
02:18:51,799 --> 02:18:53,200
that. 
And I think those things are 

2814
02:18:53,200 --> 02:18:55,360
like, I'm going to leave that to
his doctors and I'm. 

2815
02:18:55,520 --> 02:18:57,879
You know, I'm medically 
qualified enough to know that I 

2816
02:18:57,879 --> 02:18:59,440
don't. 
I'm not medically qualified. 

2817
02:18:59,520 --> 02:19:00,959
That's one of those things. 
But we can talk very 

2818
02:19:00,959 --> 02:19:02,719
specifically about things like 
what they did in the state of 

2819
02:19:02,719 --> 02:19:05,719
Florida where the the surgeon 
general came out and made a 

2820
02:19:05,719 --> 02:19:10,799
warning instead, you know, for 
men, particularly men and men of

2821
02:19:10,799 --> 02:19:13,879
the athletic ages under the, you
know, whatever it was 17 to, you

2822
02:19:13,879 --> 02:19:16,879
know, 45, whatever it is that 
there's a much higher risk of 

2823
02:19:16,879 --> 02:19:19,080
myocarditis. 
And myocarditis is a big deal. 

2824
02:19:19,080 --> 02:19:21,840
And then it basically has a 50% 
chance of ending your life in 

2825
02:19:21,840 --> 02:19:24,000
the next what, seven years or 
something to that effect. 

2826
02:19:24,000 --> 02:19:26,760
I'm quoted off the top of my 
head, so Fact Check me if as 

2827
02:19:26,760 --> 02:19:28,120
necessary in the comments, 
folks. 

2828
02:19:28,120 --> 02:19:32,080
But you know, there's been 
plenty of medical studies that 

2829
02:19:32,080 --> 02:19:34,719
says at the very least, we 
should have some caution. 

2830
02:19:35,240 --> 02:19:40,760
And and people who you know, and
then this is also America, like 

2831
02:19:40,760 --> 02:19:43,520
you and I both swore to the same
thing, which is to say, you 

2832
02:19:43,520 --> 02:19:45,680
know, I'm down with people doing
whatever it is they want to do 

2833
02:19:45,680 --> 02:19:47,480
with their own money that 
doesn't infringe on anybody 

2834
02:19:47,480 --> 02:19:48,840
else. 
And then you want to get your 

2835
02:19:48,840 --> 02:19:50,920
tongue cut and turn it into a a 
fork snake. 

2836
02:19:50,920 --> 02:19:53,120
And you want to look like that, 
like, you know, and you're in a 

2837
02:19:53,120 --> 02:19:55,040
metal band, like do whatever the
hell you want. 

2838
02:19:55,080 --> 02:19:56,600
You want to get your ears turned
into elf ears. 

2839
02:19:56,600 --> 02:19:58,640
I always say, like, as long as 
it's with your money, I don't 

2840
02:19:58,640 --> 02:20:00,480
care. 
I think it's weird, but I'm not 

2841
02:20:00,480 --> 02:20:01,560
into it. 
And if you want to go get a 

2842
02:20:01,560 --> 02:20:03,400
shot? 
That you think is going to be 

2843
02:20:03,400 --> 02:20:06,160
protecting, then so be it. 
And there are things that I get 

2844
02:20:06,160 --> 02:20:08,120
and there's things that don't. 
And I don't think anybody would 

2845
02:20:08,120 --> 02:20:12,120
have lost their minds over the 
flu shots, you know, three years

2846
02:20:12,120 --> 02:20:14,320
ago, because we, I didn't 
experience that. 

2847
02:20:14,320 --> 02:20:16,240
Like if you said like I didn't 
get the flu shot, like people 

2848
02:20:16,240 --> 02:20:17,440
weren't going to not be your 
friend. 

2849
02:20:17,600 --> 02:20:19,400
They weren't going to not let 
you in at home, right? 

2850
02:20:19,400 --> 02:20:22,160
I mean, it didn't happen. 
That's a good point, right. 

2851
02:20:22,160 --> 02:20:25,440
And so like, so people's medical
choices was, was something that 

2852
02:20:25,440 --> 02:20:27,120
was first of all, it was none of
anybody else's. 

2853
02:20:27,120 --> 02:20:28,240
Damn. 
Business it was that. 

2854
02:20:28,240 --> 02:20:30,520
Nunya Principle, which I'm a big
fan of. 

2855
02:20:31,120 --> 02:20:34,000
And then the second thing was, 
is that like it didn't cause 

2856
02:20:34,000 --> 02:20:36,280
discrimination. 
You know what? 

2857
02:20:36,280 --> 02:20:38,040
I used to work in a hospital. 
I don't know if I told you, but 

2858
02:20:38,040 --> 02:20:39,720
it's all like, I've been a 
paramedic while I used to work 

2859
02:20:39,720 --> 02:20:41,680
in a hospital. 
And every flu season you had a 

2860
02:20:41,680 --> 02:20:43,640
choice. 
You can either get the flu shot 

2861
02:20:43,640 --> 02:20:48,120
and you didn't have to wear a 
paper mask around the patients 

2862
02:20:48,320 --> 02:20:51,000
or you would not get the shot. 
And then you were supposed to 

2863
02:20:51,000 --> 02:20:53,040
wear a mask and they did it by 
like a sticker on your badge. 

2864
02:20:53,560 --> 02:20:56,040
And that's fine. 
I mean, it's probably 

2865
02:20:56,040 --> 02:20:57,680
discriminatory too. 
Like at this point I have 

2866
02:20:57,680 --> 02:21:00,120
probably draw a line on, but at 
the time that seemed reasonable 

2867
02:21:00,120 --> 02:21:02,200
enough. 
And nobody judged you if you 

2868
02:21:02,200 --> 02:21:03,920
wore a mask, you're just the guy
wearing a mask because you 

2869
02:21:03,920 --> 02:21:05,600
didn't want to get that shot. 
And they don't care. 

2870
02:21:05,600 --> 02:21:07,240
Nobody cares, right? 
You know what I mean? 

2871
02:21:07,240 --> 02:21:09,720
Like it wasn't, there wasn't a 
moral judgement on you that 

2872
02:21:09,720 --> 02:21:12,960
you're you've now like you're 
now part of them and. 

2873
02:21:12,960 --> 02:21:14,920
You're a bad person. 
Which is what you and I are in 

2874
02:21:14,920 --> 02:21:16,400
the. 
Category at this point like 

2875
02:21:16,400 --> 02:21:20,080
you're the them, you're the 
other, you're the guy that's out

2876
02:21:20,080 --> 02:21:24,960
there very tribal people getting
that vax and then. 

2877
02:21:24,960 --> 02:21:27,920
Posting a picture. 
On social media with their vax. 

2878
02:21:27,920 --> 02:21:36,200
Car, you know, by the way, so I 
recently filed a a separate open

2879
02:21:36,200 --> 02:21:40,720
records request right before 
Thanksgiving requesting the 

2880
02:21:40,720 --> 02:21:42,920
vaccination status of our 
attorney general. 

2881
02:21:43,080 --> 02:21:51,080
Attorney General, you know, and 
I got the response, it took 

2882
02:21:51,080 --> 02:21:54,440
about two weeks and, and I, I'm 
not making this up. 

2883
02:21:54,520 --> 02:21:58,520
The response was, well, you're 
not entitled to that 

2884
02:21:58,520 --> 02:22:00,560
information. 
Now, there are exemptions in the

2885
02:22:00,560 --> 02:22:02,680
open records law and there's 
good exemptions. 

2886
02:22:02,680 --> 02:22:06,000
So I can't like go to the 
Madison Police Department and 

2887
02:22:06,000 --> 02:22:08,360
ask for all the home addresses 
of all the police officers. 

2888
02:22:08,400 --> 02:22:12,720
The open records are protected, 
but this, there's nothing in 

2889
02:22:12,720 --> 02:22:16,600
there that says anything about 
like in this case about they 

2890
02:22:16,640 --> 02:22:20,000
talk about financial 
information, medical information

2891
02:22:20,000 --> 02:22:23,320
isn't in there surprisingly, but
I think that's because they rely

2892
02:22:23,320 --> 02:22:27,800
on HIPAA for that. 
So the attorney respondents is 

2893
02:22:27,800 --> 02:22:31,960
we have decided not to provide 
you with this information based 

2894
02:22:31,960 --> 02:22:33,880
on the balancing test. 
I think there's some precedent 

2895
02:22:33,880 --> 02:22:37,080
there, but it was involved in 
financial information and HIPAA 

2896
02:22:37,720 --> 02:22:43,440
when we were specifically told 
it only applies to healthcare 

2897
02:22:43,440 --> 02:22:45,800
providers and insurance 
companies and related 

2898
02:22:45,800 --> 02:22:47,440
businesses. 
The last time I checked that. 

2899
02:22:47,440 --> 02:22:48,880
Was none of those? 
Yes, correct. 

2900
02:22:48,880 --> 02:22:55,360
So I have been working with a 
conservative talk show host here

2901
02:22:55,360 --> 02:22:59,320
who has a couple of websites. 
He posted a story in October and

2902
02:22:59,840 --> 02:23:04,000
about my original kind of battle
with with the state. 

2903
02:23:04,120 --> 02:23:08,880
I'd also did file a federal 
After my state discrimination 

2904
02:23:08,880 --> 02:23:12,920
complaint was dismissed, I tried
to file one with the EEOC, and 

2905
02:23:13,200 --> 02:23:15,920
that was AI did a phone 
interview with somebody that 

2906
02:23:17,240 --> 02:23:20,360
lasted about two minutes. 
Yeah, they, they're also part of

2907
02:23:20,360 --> 02:23:21,840
the. 
They're they're friendly. 

2908
02:23:21,960 --> 02:23:24,440
Yeah, they're comedians too. 
They they think you're abusing 

2909
02:23:24,440 --> 02:23:26,120
the process, which is even. 
Weirder, right? 

2910
02:23:26,280 --> 02:23:27,200
But they're government 
employees. 

2911
02:23:27,200 --> 02:23:28,320
What do you expect? 
Right. 

2912
02:23:28,880 --> 02:23:30,960
Yeah. 
So at least I can say I checked 

2913
02:23:30,960 --> 02:23:32,160
that box. 
I tried to. 

2914
02:23:32,360 --> 02:23:35,680
I filed both at the state and. 
Federal level. 

2915
02:23:36,240 --> 02:23:38,360
Yep. 
And this is this is one of the 

2916
02:23:38,360 --> 02:23:39,840
reasons why I think you and I 
get along too. 

2917
02:23:39,840 --> 02:23:42,160
It's because it's like you got 
to fight all the fights all the 

2918
02:23:42,160 --> 02:23:44,240
time and. 
Every venue that you can and, 

2919
02:23:44,240 --> 02:23:46,560
and you know, in the federal 
government, they call it 

2920
02:23:46,560 --> 02:23:48,840
administrative remedies. 
That's what I'm doing. 

2921
02:23:49,240 --> 02:23:51,280
And you're doing the same thing.
You're, you're, you're checking 

2922
02:23:51,280 --> 02:23:52,760
all the boxes. 
You're giving them the 

2923
02:23:52,760 --> 02:23:54,400
opportunity to address your 
grievances. 

2924
02:23:55,160 --> 02:23:56,280
But we know they're not going to
do it. 

2925
02:23:56,920 --> 02:23:58,520
And then are you still, are you 
still being paid? 

2926
02:23:58,520 --> 02:24:00,720
Are you still in that job or? 
No, Yeah. 

2927
02:24:00,880 --> 02:24:04,600
Oh, yeah. 
In fact, I got a letter of 

2928
02:24:04,600 --> 02:24:06,720
reprimand. 
And because all the all the 

2929
02:24:06,720 --> 02:24:08,320
restrictions. 
Were were ended? 

2930
02:24:08,320 --> 02:24:11,440
Well, technically they claimed 
they were ended in March of 

2931
02:24:11,440 --> 02:24:13,760
2021. 
So the mask mandate was ended 

2932
02:24:14,280 --> 02:24:18,600
and then the requirement to 
continue to test was ended in 

2933
02:24:18,600 --> 02:24:22,320
March. 
However, 22 if you're pardon me 

2934
02:24:22,440 --> 02:24:28,480
and 22 yes, in March of like 
early March of 2022, but. 

2935
02:24:29,080 --> 02:24:32,400
I know if. 
You're applying for a job with 

2936
02:24:32,400 --> 02:24:35,200
the state of Wisconsin. 
It's still a requirement for 

2937
02:24:35,200 --> 02:24:36,880
applicants. 
I don't know how that flies. 

2938
02:24:37,080 --> 02:24:40,160
So you have to report your 
vaccination status if you're 

2939
02:24:40,160 --> 02:24:43,320
applying for a job. 
If, if you like me and say no, 

2940
02:24:43,320 --> 02:24:45,160
I'm not going to do that, what 
are the odds you're going to get

2941
02:24:45,160 --> 02:24:50,480
that job, Right, Right. 
But honestly, there is something

2942
02:24:50,480 --> 02:24:52,920
to be said about that being like
a grandfather policy. 

2943
02:24:52,920 --> 02:24:54,720
Like when I got hired on. 
By the Bureau, it wasn't a. 

2944
02:24:54,720 --> 02:24:56,640
Condition of employment. 
I met all the conditions of 

2945
02:24:56,640 --> 02:24:58,880
employment and they didn't 
actually change the conditions 

2946
02:24:58,880 --> 02:25:01,720
of employment, which would take 
some real work. 

2947
02:25:02,200 --> 02:25:03,960
And so if they had done that, 
that would be a different 

2948
02:25:03,960 --> 02:25:05,160
animal. 
But like I said, I think it's 

2949
02:25:05,160 --> 02:25:08,280
still discriminatory. 
So I almost think that's the 

2950
02:25:08,360 --> 02:25:11,040
that's as close to the right way
to do something that I disagree 

2951
02:25:11,040 --> 02:25:14,000
with as you can do is that you 
say, look like you're coming 

2952
02:25:14,000 --> 02:25:16,520
into this job, like these are 
the, these are the criteria. 

2953
02:25:16,680 --> 02:25:19,640
If they changed it on you after 
you got hired, I think that's 

2954
02:25:19,640 --> 02:25:21,000
where the issue is for people 
like you. 

2955
02:25:21,000 --> 02:25:24,760
And I like I, I honestly think 
if you go into an open minded 

2956
02:25:24,760 --> 02:25:27,040
and you go like, well, that's a 
job that's closed to me. 

2957
02:25:27,200 --> 02:25:29,840
Nobody's like, I don't think 
anybody's entitled to any 

2958
02:25:29,840 --> 02:25:31,480
particular job. 
Like I don't think people are 

2959
02:25:31,480 --> 02:25:33,160
entitled to work in the military
either. 

2960
02:25:33,640 --> 02:25:36,960
But if you brought them on and 
then you're going to make this 

2961
02:25:36,960 --> 02:25:39,200
executive order, like, what the 
Hell's the president had to do 

2962
02:25:39,200 --> 02:25:42,040
with, you know, public health, 
number one? 

2963
02:25:42,040 --> 02:25:43,920
And what does this have to do 
with public health too? 

2964
02:25:43,920 --> 02:25:46,480
Because this is an age bracket. 
That's not, you know, you talk 

2965
02:25:46,480 --> 02:25:50,080
about people in the military 
and, and overwhelmingly they are

2966
02:25:50,080 --> 02:25:53,000
very fit and they are well 
monitored when it comes to 

2967
02:25:53,000 --> 02:25:55,120
health. 
And they have a lot of, you 

2968
02:25:55,120 --> 02:25:58,880
know, it's not like we are like 
requiring military spouses. 

2969
02:25:58,880 --> 02:26:00,320
That's the other thing that was 
so dumb to me. 

2970
02:26:00,440 --> 02:26:03,720
The minute you know that anybody
can get the damn virus and if 

2971
02:26:03,720 --> 02:26:06,360
you can't mandate that their 
spouses and their their family 

2972
02:26:06,360 --> 02:26:08,800
members and anybody that they 
like roommates, you know, we're 

2973
02:26:08,800 --> 02:26:10,960
talking about like privates and 
stuff living with other dudes 

2974
02:26:11,960 --> 02:26:14,400
and I guess gals doing the same 
thing. 

2975
02:26:14,600 --> 02:26:17,840
It's like you can't control the 
the human environment. 

2976
02:26:17,840 --> 02:26:21,400
And so this was just like a 
political cudgel that was being 

2977
02:26:21,400 --> 02:26:23,760
wielded to try to get the. 
Most number of people in this 

2978
02:26:23,760 --> 02:26:25,640
country. 
Forced to do something. 

2979
02:26:25,840 --> 02:26:27,560
And that's why they lean on 
private business too. 

2980
02:26:27,880 --> 02:26:30,600
And it's all tyranny. 
And so anyway, all that stuff 

2981
02:26:30,600 --> 02:26:33,360
like obviously that rubs you 
wrong, which I love and and 

2982
02:26:33,360 --> 02:26:36,240
that's why we get along. 
It's it's like any tyranny. 

2983
02:26:36,240 --> 02:26:38,200
It wouldn't, it wasn't even just
this. 

2984
02:26:38,200 --> 02:26:40,080
And I'm sure if there were any 
other mandatory things that 

2985
02:26:40,080 --> 02:26:41,880
didn't even affect you, they 
would still upset you because 

2986
02:26:41,880 --> 02:26:45,440
that's just the nature of of 
your character, right. 

2987
02:26:45,800 --> 02:26:51,200
Yeah, it's my neighbor here was 
fired public school teacher city

2988
02:26:51,200 --> 02:26:53,840
Madison, actually. 
Filed a religious exemption 

2989
02:26:53,840 --> 02:26:57,240
which was 9 which it seems to be
unconstitutional to me, 

2990
02:26:57,360 --> 02:26:59,680
especially when they approved 
some and others they did not 

2991
02:26:59,760 --> 02:27:01,280
because it depended on what your
religion was. 

2992
02:27:01,280 --> 02:27:06,640
She's a Catholic, she filed a 
law and got her job back, got 

2993
02:27:06,640 --> 02:27:08,520
all of her back pay and a 
settlement. 

2994
02:27:08,640 --> 02:27:10,560
So what does that tell you? 
I mean, they obviously, and I 

2995
02:27:10,560 --> 02:27:13,640
think she had to sign a non 
disclosure, but they obviously 

2996
02:27:13,640 --> 02:27:17,400
knew they screwed the pooch and,
you know, but she was in a very 

2997
02:27:17,400 --> 02:27:21,840
tiny minority because, you know,
the public school teachers, 

2998
02:27:21,840 --> 02:27:24,960
particularly for the city of 
Madison, for the most part, very

2999
02:27:24,960 --> 02:27:27,320
left-leaning. 
They probably had 95% 

3000
02:27:27,840 --> 02:27:30,120
compliance. 
She was an outlier. 

3001
02:27:30,160 --> 02:27:31,680
Yeah. 
Which for me it's like, OK, 

3002
02:27:31,680 --> 02:27:33,120
fine. 
Everybody agreed to do something

3003
02:27:33,120 --> 02:27:34,760
that that's where the group 
think is. 

3004
02:27:34,760 --> 02:27:37,360
So be it. 
I just the the the brilliance 

3005
02:27:37,360 --> 02:27:38,920
of. 
America has always been that we 

3006
02:27:38,920 --> 02:27:41,280
rule by majority, but we protect
the minority. 

3007
02:27:42,760 --> 02:27:44,960
I mean, that is the nature of 
our our system. 

3008
02:27:44,960 --> 02:27:47,640
In fact, we have several rules 
like the, you know, the 

3009
02:27:47,640 --> 02:27:49,520
Electoral College to be able to 
kind of keep these. 

3010
02:27:49,520 --> 02:27:50,920
Things at Bay? 
So that you don't have the 

3011
02:27:50,920 --> 02:27:55,160
straight tyranny of the majority
because you know, every single 

3012
02:27:55,160 --> 02:27:58,680
dictatorship started with with 
majority rule. 

3013
02:27:58,840 --> 02:28:01,440
Like that's how they, I mean, 
that's, that's what they are. 

3014
02:28:01,440 --> 02:28:04,200
That's that's why our, our 
country is so special, is that 

3015
02:28:04,200 --> 02:28:06,400
we have some breaks, some 
internal checks and balances 

3016
02:28:06,400 --> 02:28:07,560
that be able to stop those 
things. 

3017
02:28:07,920 --> 02:28:11,000
So anyway, it's just, it's 
interesting that that's the it's

3018
02:28:11,000 --> 02:28:14,600
interesting that we ended up in 
a fight like this domestically. 

3019
02:28:15,080 --> 02:28:18,080
I mean, if you asked you and you
started the FBI, like I think 

3020
02:28:18,080 --> 02:28:19,880
you would have been in my camp, 
you would have been in my signal

3021
02:28:19,880 --> 02:28:21,280
group. 
He would have been one of my 

3022
02:28:21,280 --> 02:28:23,440
guys that we'd be fine. 
Because I do have people that 

3023
02:28:23,440 --> 02:28:25,960
have 28 years of experience that
that were probably, you know, 

3024
02:28:25,960 --> 02:28:30,960
classmates similar years. 
And it's just they, they knew 

3025
02:28:30,960 --> 02:28:32,600
what was right and wrong long 
before. 

3026
02:28:32,600 --> 02:28:34,600
And some for some people it's 
non negotiable. 

3027
02:28:34,920 --> 02:28:36,160
It's. 
Interesting how many people it 

3028
02:28:36,160 --> 02:28:38,160
is negotiable. 
For I think that's what was so 

3029
02:28:38,160 --> 02:28:41,200
interesting about the last 
couple of years, right? 

3030
02:28:41,640 --> 02:28:43,480
Yeah, it's kind of 
disappointing. 

3031
02:28:43,480 --> 02:28:46,480
I would have. 
I wouldn't if you told me about 

3032
02:28:46,480 --> 02:28:51,040
this, that this. 
Pandemic was going to come up 

3033
02:28:51,040 --> 02:28:54,000
and there's going to be vaccine 
mandates, everything. 

3034
02:28:54,000 --> 02:28:57,880
And just sort of the way the 
facts like, you know, played 

3035
02:28:57,880 --> 02:29:00,680
out, I would have suspected 
there would have been a much 

3036
02:29:00,680 --> 02:29:06,120
higher rate of non compliance. 
But there's that the theory of 

3037
02:29:06,120 --> 02:29:09,280
mass formation psychosis that 
I'd have heard of before. 

3038
02:29:09,280 --> 02:29:11,560
It kind of makes sense now. 
We're all psychologists. 

3039
02:29:11,560 --> 02:29:14,680
And not not only are we all 
psychologists, we're also 

3040
02:29:14,680 --> 02:29:16,960
virologists, right? 
Like everybody became an expert 

3041
02:29:16,960 --> 02:29:18,760
at 5 things. 
Over the last three years that 

3042
02:29:18,760 --> 02:29:19,720
nobody had. 
Been. 

3043
02:29:20,680 --> 02:29:22,080
Right. 
And law now. 

3044
02:29:22,120 --> 02:29:25,440
Now you and I have to be experts
and EEO, right? 

3045
02:29:26,160 --> 02:29:28,520
Yes. 
Yeah, that was the other thing I

3046
02:29:28,520 --> 02:29:30,240
mean. 
I was spending a lot of time 

3047
02:29:31,240 --> 02:29:32,520
doing legal research when I 
should. 

3048
02:29:32,520 --> 02:29:34,800
Have been working for the 
taxpayers of Wisconsin, right. 

3049
02:29:34,800 --> 02:29:37,040
This is what the box they put me
in. 

3050
02:29:38,680 --> 02:29:44,320
And I did have a a a former FBI 
analyst who's who's like us very

3051
02:29:44,320 --> 02:29:47,160
conservative guy. 
He's a retired he was also a 

3052
02:29:47,160 --> 02:29:50,720
naval officer and recovering 
attorney and he kind of helped 

3053
02:29:50,720 --> 02:29:53,400
me through the process a little 
bit too, even though he's not a 

3054
02:29:53,400 --> 02:29:56,600
member of the Wisconsin bar. 
But it's nice to be able to lean

3055
02:29:56,600 --> 02:29:59,600
on friends like that too, to 
help you in the situation. 

3056
02:29:59,600 --> 02:30:01,600
But a lot and a lot of it I just
did on my own. 

3057
02:30:01,760 --> 02:30:04,120
It's not rocket science. 
You just got to hit your nose in

3058
02:30:04,120 --> 02:30:05,800
the books and start looking this
stuff up. 

3059
02:30:05,840 --> 02:30:09,800
And like, who knew there was a 
provision that says it's 

3060
02:30:09,800 --> 02:30:12,680
unlawful to discriminate against
for use of unusual lawful 

3061
02:30:12,680 --> 02:30:14,040
product. 
I don't know where that came 

3062
02:30:14,040 --> 02:30:16,040
from. 
No like that at the federal 

3063
02:30:16,040 --> 02:30:17,240
level. 
No, certainly not. 

3064
02:30:17,240 --> 02:30:18,480
But that's really interesting 
stuff. 

3065
02:30:18,760 --> 02:30:21,600
Do you think that any of the 
fight that you've had has has 

3066
02:30:21,600 --> 02:30:23,120
moved the needle for anybody 
that's. 

3067
02:30:23,480 --> 02:30:25,600
Like a. 
Very junior type employee for 

3068
02:30:25,600 --> 02:30:29,080
the for the state government. 
It's interesting. 

3069
02:30:29,080 --> 02:30:33,800
I just did another open records 
on Tuesday and I haven't 

3070
02:30:33,800 --> 02:30:35,360
obviously gotten a response. 
Yet. 

3071
02:30:35,360 --> 02:30:39,360
But I'm asking for how many 
employees were disciplined for 

3072
02:30:39,360 --> 02:30:41,840
not complying with this policy, 
just within the Department of 

3073
02:30:41,840 --> 02:30:43,600
Justice, not the entire 
executive branch. 

3074
02:30:44,000 --> 02:30:46,920
So it'll be interesting to see 
because I don't know, I, I, 

3075
02:30:47,320 --> 02:30:51,520
unlike you with your signal 
group, we're pretty much 

3076
02:30:51,520 --> 02:30:53,360
disconnected. 
Most of the people at DOJ are 

3077
02:30:53,360 --> 02:30:56,440
now working from home when I go 
into the office so. 

3078
02:30:56,480 --> 02:30:59,600
Like a ghost town. 
So I don't really know how many 

3079
02:30:59,600 --> 02:31:02,080
other people might have pushed 
back against us. 

3080
02:31:02,080 --> 02:31:04,640
I'm kind of curious. 
I don't know if they'll deny 

3081
02:31:04,640 --> 02:31:06,640
that one or not. 
I, I said, hey, I'm not asking 

3082
02:31:06,640 --> 02:31:09,000
for names. 
I'm just looking for sheer 

3083
02:31:09,000 --> 02:31:11,400
numbers. 
And how many people and what 

3084
02:31:11,400 --> 02:31:14,920
type of discipline did they get 
right? 

3085
02:31:15,520 --> 02:31:18,400
You know, like, maybe it's just 
going to be me. 

3086
02:31:18,560 --> 02:31:20,320
I don't know. 
I mean, there's like. 800 

3087
02:31:20,320 --> 02:31:22,560
employees there, I feel. 
I feel like it won't just be 

3088
02:31:22,560 --> 02:31:24,720
you, but I think it'll be less 
than what we would hope it would

3089
02:31:24,720 --> 02:31:27,280
be. 
But it won't be none, you know 

3090
02:31:27,280 --> 02:31:28,680
what I mean? 
That's the other thing and that.

3091
02:31:28,920 --> 02:31:31,440
And that's the other thing that 
I think people felt in addition 

3092
02:31:31,440 --> 02:31:33,000
to the isolation being said at 
home. 

3093
02:31:33,000 --> 02:31:35,920
And and then I think that's 
where the censorship and we can 

3094
02:31:35,920 --> 02:31:37,960
talk briefly maybe about the 
Twitter Files and maybe that's 

3095
02:31:37,960 --> 02:31:40,080
probably enough for we're at 2 
1/2 hours. 

3096
02:31:40,080 --> 02:31:42,960
So that's pretty good. 
Yeah. 

3097
02:31:43,160 --> 02:31:47,360
So the people felt so siloed and
and isolated because they didn't

3098
02:31:47,720 --> 02:31:51,160
like nobody knew this was coming
and nobody knew that they had to

3099
02:31:51,160 --> 02:31:57,200
go and find people that were 
politically and maybe morally on

3100
02:31:57,200 --> 02:31:59,720
the same page. 
Because I, I think we all 

3101
02:31:59,720 --> 02:32:02,360
thought America was America and 
that we would all defend each 

3102
02:32:02,360 --> 02:32:06,080
other like I would defend people
to have opinions that I despise.

3103
02:32:07,080 --> 02:32:10,760
You know, I, I think abortion 
is, is atrocious, but I would, I

3104
02:32:10,760 --> 02:32:12,800
would argue that you, you have 
that right. 

3105
02:32:12,800 --> 02:32:15,160
And I would try to convince you 
otherwise with logic. 

3106
02:32:15,160 --> 02:32:16,920
And if you don't want to hear 
it, then I have no right to 

3107
02:32:16,920 --> 02:32:19,600
force it on you. 
I can't voice my values upon 

3108
02:32:19,600 --> 02:32:20,800
you. 
It's going to be down to the 

3109
02:32:20,800 --> 02:32:22,080
core system. 
And then it's going to be 

3110
02:32:22,080 --> 02:32:24,000
between you and God, which is 
pretty straightforward. 

3111
02:32:24,640 --> 02:32:26,160
And that's the way Eric has 
always been, right? 

3112
02:32:26,160 --> 02:32:27,800
I mean, that's, that's the value
of this country. 

3113
02:32:27,800 --> 02:32:30,600
That's so brilliant. 
And who knew that before going 

3114
02:32:30,600 --> 02:32:33,000
to force what is really a 
secular religion on us? 

3115
02:32:34,200 --> 02:32:36,040
And I think in a lot of ways, 
that's what we've experienced. 

3116
02:32:36,040 --> 02:32:37,880
That's why I like calling them 
Cavidians because I think it's 

3117
02:32:37,880 --> 02:32:40,040
funny One, it's kind of a play 
on the Branch Davidians. 

3118
02:32:40,560 --> 02:32:45,240
But more moreover, it is like it
needs a name because it is a 

3119
02:32:45,240 --> 02:32:47,840
thing that is it involves the 
mask and it don't clear me 

3120
02:32:47,840 --> 02:32:49,680
without it. 
And you can't come into my house

3121
02:32:49,680 --> 02:32:52,480
if you didn't have the shot that
didn't do anything and all the 

3122
02:32:52,480 --> 02:32:54,240
other kind of wild stuff that 
went along with it. 

3123
02:32:55,720 --> 02:32:58,280
You know, it's, it's a it's a 
lack of social tolerance that 

3124
02:32:58,480 --> 02:33:00,360
that I think, you know, it's 
probably innate to Someone Like 

3125
02:33:00,360 --> 02:33:04,280
You and me and, and a lot of 
people that I just want to be 

3126
02:33:04,280 --> 02:33:09,280
left alone. 
Well, I think this is right on a

3127
02:33:09,280 --> 02:33:11,200
Saul Alinsky, right? 
I mean the the whole 

3128
02:33:11,200 --> 02:33:14,000
polarization I mean. 
Obama had an opportunity to be a

3129
02:33:14,000 --> 02:33:16,080
very. 
Unifying president and he did 

3130
02:33:16,080 --> 02:33:19,240
just the opposite, you know, 
and, and it was done by design. 

3131
02:33:19,600 --> 02:33:24,720
And a lot of this polarization 
is illustrated by where people 

3132
02:33:24,720 --> 02:33:26,440
stand when it comes to the COVID
jab. 

3133
02:33:26,440 --> 02:33:28,080
It's a, it's a good example of 
that. 

3134
02:33:29,160 --> 02:33:31,760
And it's unfortunate because 
this country wasn't always like 

3135
02:33:31,760 --> 02:33:35,880
it. 
You know, there wasn't the type 

3136
02:33:35,880 --> 02:33:38,400
of vitriol that we see now 
between Democrats and 

3137
02:33:38,400 --> 02:33:40,480
Republicans. 
Of course, it's it's amplified 

3138
02:33:40,480 --> 02:33:43,360
because of social media. 
But I, you know, I think a lot 

3139
02:33:43,360 --> 02:33:46,440
of that has been done by design,
sort of the divide and conquer, 

3140
02:33:47,600 --> 02:33:50,640
you know, in, I think probably 
both parties are guilty of it, 

3141
02:33:50,640 --> 02:33:55,200
but the Democrat party is really
the sort of the masters of the 

3142
02:33:55,200 --> 02:33:58,240
of the polarization. 
And, and that was something that

3143
02:33:58,240 --> 02:34:01,320
was preached by Saul Alinsky, 
who was one of Obama's heroes. 

3144
02:34:01,320 --> 02:34:05,120
So I know we're getting off. 
No, but I think, I think that's,

3145
02:34:05,160 --> 02:34:09,000
I think unfortunately politics 
and culture are intertwined at 

3146
02:34:09,000 --> 02:34:11,200
this point to a point where you 
know, not, not. 

3147
02:34:11,200 --> 02:34:13,600
The way that I grew up, but it 
is the way that it is today and 

3148
02:34:13,600 --> 02:34:17,040
there's no other way around it. 
Do you use social media at all 

3149
02:34:17,040 --> 02:34:21,960
or are you just aware of it? 
No, I mean I the only thing I 

3150
02:34:21,960 --> 02:34:25,120
have is a is a LinkedIn account 
I don't have. 

3151
02:34:26,240 --> 02:34:28,920
You know, Twitter or Facebook or
anything like that. 

3152
02:34:30,640 --> 02:34:33,280
I, I think that's the most 
common thing for yeah, I know I,

3153
02:34:33,280 --> 02:34:35,400
I, I mean, I didn't either until
very, very recently. 

3154
02:34:35,400 --> 02:34:37,920
And I think folks who who. 
Know that about me, know that I 

3155
02:34:37,920 --> 02:34:40,520
started, you know, literally my 
account started the day that I 

3156
02:34:40,520 --> 02:34:43,960
went and spoke to the media, 
which is a weird thing to do for

3157
02:34:44,360 --> 02:34:46,760
guys like you and I were always,
kind of probably always in the 

3158
02:34:46,760 --> 02:34:48,960
quiet and like, I don't want to 
be on that at all. 

3159
02:34:49,760 --> 02:34:52,960
I'm on it more often. 
I call it my Chia pet because 

3160
02:34:53,120 --> 02:34:55,560
because you do have to, you have
to water it and you have to 

3161
02:34:55,560 --> 02:34:57,800
maintain what's going on. 
And and if you're going to be in

3162
02:34:57,800 --> 02:34:59,160
the fight, you might as well be 
in the fight. 

3163
02:34:59,880 --> 02:35:01,520
But do you have an active 
LinkedIn account? 

3164
02:35:01,520 --> 02:35:05,240
If people are are part of 
Wisconsin DOJ, can they can they

3165
02:35:05,240 --> 02:35:07,720
reach out to you there and kind 
of link arms with you? 

3166
02:35:07,760 --> 02:35:09,200
Is that a, is that a good place 
for that? 

3167
02:35:09,400 --> 02:35:10,160
Sure. 
Yeah. 

3168
02:35:12,840 --> 02:35:14,240
Yeah. 
That's kind of what I'm hoping, 

3169
02:35:14,320 --> 02:35:16,040
you know, to maybe connect with 
some of these. 

3170
02:35:16,680 --> 02:35:19,240
Depending on how many other 
people maybe were disciplined 

3171
02:35:20,000 --> 02:35:22,480
and it might take a little 
investigating, I guess to find 

3172
02:35:22,480 --> 02:35:24,960
out who those people might be. 
But if they if they were to see 

3173
02:35:24,960 --> 02:35:30,040
this yes, all by all means and 
and yeah, they can always reach 

3174
02:35:30,040 --> 02:35:33,960
me through my Wisconsin DOJ. 
I mean that's public that's on 

3175
02:35:33,960 --> 02:35:37,360
the DOJ website. 
Do you do you want me to to do A

3176
02:35:37,360 --> 02:35:40,760
to tweet out a link to your 
LinkedIn at all of what when we 

3177
02:35:40,760 --> 02:35:42,520
put this thing out there or put 
it in the show notes where 

3178
02:35:42,520 --> 02:35:44,440
people. 
Can click through to it and if 

3179
02:35:44,440 --> 02:35:47,880
they are in part of that is that
yeah that's fine it's up to you 

3180
02:35:48,120 --> 02:35:50,680
like like I don't want to thrust
on anyone but I know that you 

3181
02:35:50,760 --> 02:35:53,480
want you got a strong back and I
know that you're in this fight 

3182
02:35:53,480 --> 02:35:54,680
and if people. 
Want to go and look your? 

3183
02:35:54,680 --> 02:35:57,440
Name up they can find videos and
I watched videos of you speak in

3184
02:35:57,440 --> 02:36:01,320
front of your City Council or 
your what is that your the Dane 

3185
02:36:01,320 --> 02:36:02,920
County board. 
Yeah, the Dane County board, 

3186
02:36:02,920 --> 02:36:05,880
which is yeah. 
And you know, back-to-back you 

3187
02:36:05,880 --> 02:36:08,280
got up and gave a well, well 
thought out you. 

3188
02:36:08,480 --> 02:36:10,480
Know takedown on. 
Their abortion policy. 

3189
02:36:10,480 --> 02:36:12,640
And then we got some leftist 
chick who's reading out her 

3190
02:36:12,640 --> 02:36:15,560
phone who looks like she lives 
at home with three cats. 

3191
02:36:15,560 --> 02:36:19,720
And I mean, you're involved in 
the social, the social struggle 

3192
02:36:19,720 --> 02:36:21,800
that so many people are. 
And you're not, you know, 

3193
02:36:21,800 --> 02:36:23,600
shrinking Violet when it comes 
to getting out there and being 

3194
02:36:23,600 --> 02:36:25,320
public about it and putting your
name and your face and your 

3195
02:36:25,320 --> 02:36:28,120
voice to it. 
So I am appreciative of that. 

3196
02:36:28,800 --> 02:36:31,400
As someone who's now recently, 
like reluctantly in that same 

3197
02:36:31,400 --> 02:36:35,280
venue, you know, you can't turn 
away from a fight. 

3198
02:36:35,280 --> 02:36:37,360
And I can see that that's that's
not your MO. 

3199
02:36:37,360 --> 02:36:39,520
So I just, I don't want to send 
any of your stuff out without 

3200
02:36:39,520 --> 02:36:40,920
doing that. 
But we will, we'll add it to it.

3201
02:36:41,600 --> 02:36:42,640
I appreciate that. 
I will. 

3202
02:36:43,080 --> 02:36:47,720
I'm going to be making a 
donation to the Wisconsin 

3203
02:36:47,720 --> 02:36:49,720
veterans. 
Museum next month. 

3204
02:36:50,840 --> 02:36:54,920
I did a fair amount of like 
stolen Valor Bureau. 

3205
02:36:54,920 --> 02:36:59,360
Once again, my supervisor was 
very supportive of my lot of 

3206
02:36:59,360 --> 02:37:01,400
supervisors would probably say 
why you wasted your time with 

3207
02:37:01,400 --> 02:37:05,400
us, but he understood, you know,
and you know, it's a misdemeanor

3208
02:37:05,400 --> 02:37:09,760
crime, but it's as as another 
veteran, I'm sure you can 

3209
02:37:09,760 --> 02:37:14,400
appreciate that a lot of times 
these individuals are involved 

3210
02:37:14,400 --> 02:37:16,600
in other frauds and other scams.
That's right. 

3211
02:37:16,600 --> 02:37:17,480
Yeah. 
If you're willing to do 

3212
02:37:17,480 --> 02:37:21,120
something shady like steal, you 
know, like lie about your your 

3213
02:37:21,120 --> 02:37:23,360
military records, often times 
you're willing to do other 

3214
02:37:23,360 --> 02:37:23,840
things. 
Too. 

3215
02:37:23,840 --> 02:37:25,680
That's an excellent point. 
I hadn't thought of it that way.

3216
02:37:25,960 --> 02:37:30,840
Yeah. 
So we we managed during the 

3217
02:37:30,840 --> 02:37:33,120
course of my career. 
So they seized a few things. 

3218
02:37:33,120 --> 02:37:37,160
Including a An individual showed
up at the Medal of Honor 

3219
02:37:37,160 --> 02:37:40,800
convention. 
Talk about the brazen When 

3220
02:37:40,800 --> 02:37:44,640
Freebay hosted the Medal of 
Honor convention in 2007 and he 

3221
02:37:44,640 --> 02:37:48,360
was wearing a camouflage desert 
camouflage. 

3222
02:37:48,560 --> 02:37:51,360
Not the digital 1, not the 
chocolate chip, but the kind of 

3223
02:37:51,360 --> 02:37:56,240
the in between 1:00 and he had 
combat like a jump, wings with a

3224
02:37:56,240 --> 02:38:01,400
star and then a CIB and a Ranger
cap and Al Rascon, who was one 

3225
02:38:01,400 --> 02:38:03,600
of the Medal of Honor 
recipients. 

3226
02:38:03,920 --> 02:38:05,520
And this went on for a week. 
It was. 

3227
02:38:05,640 --> 02:38:08,040
It was really a cool experience.
Probably the highlight of my 

3228
02:38:08,040 --> 02:38:10,240
career because I got to meet all
these Medal of Honors. 

3229
02:38:10,600 --> 02:38:13,280
Yeah, that sounds awesome. 21 
different events, including Tom 

3230
02:38:13,280 --> 02:38:14,840
Norris. 
I mean, just awesome. 

3231
02:38:14,920 --> 02:38:18,720
But this El Roscoe went over. 
And he started. 

3232
02:38:19,000 --> 02:38:21,200
Chatting this guy up and he 
says, hey, I've just, I noticed 

3233
02:38:21,200 --> 02:38:23,040
you have combat jump when he was
younger. 

3234
02:38:23,280 --> 02:38:25,120
He was a Desert Storm vet for 
parents. 

3235
02:38:25,120 --> 02:38:27,200
Supposedly. 
He said, where did you do your 

3236
02:38:27,200 --> 02:38:31,760
combat jump? 
And the guy said, oh, into 

3237
02:38:31,760 --> 02:38:34,240
Kuwait. 
And he said Kuwait. 

3238
02:38:34,600 --> 02:38:36,920
I don't think the United States 
did any combat jump. 

3239
02:38:37,320 --> 02:38:41,560
And so they ended up seizing 
this jacket from the guy and he 

3240
02:38:41,560 --> 02:38:44,920
was escorted off the premises by
the Brown County Sheriff's 

3241
02:38:44,920 --> 02:38:47,880
deputies. 
And that jacket ended up in the 

3242
02:38:48,200 --> 02:38:53,560
hospitality room and Mr. Rascon 
signed it and they put phony on 

3243
02:38:53,560 --> 02:38:55,200
there. 
And then there was a Tom Katona,

3244
02:38:55,200 --> 02:38:57,920
who's a retired FBI agent who 
did a lot of, he's kind of the 

3245
02:38:57,920 --> 02:39:00,880
pioneer doing stolen Ballard 
stuff in the 90s. 

3246
02:39:01,080 --> 02:39:03,960
He signed it because he was at 
the convention and that I ended 

3247
02:39:03,960 --> 02:39:06,880
up getting this at the end of 
the convention and it's just 

3248
02:39:06,880 --> 02:39:10,480
been sitting in my basement. 
So I contacted the Wisconsin 

3249
02:39:10,480 --> 02:39:13,760
Veterans Museum and they said, 
yeah, we might be interested in 

3250
02:39:13,760 --> 02:39:15,520
that. 
And I've got some others like 

3251
02:39:15,560 --> 02:39:18,240
ribbon racks and documents and 
stuff that they seized over the 

3252
02:39:18,400 --> 02:39:20,600
over the years. 
Yeah, we actually went to trial 

3253
02:39:21,240 --> 02:39:25,600
on a guy misdemeanor probably 
one of the how many FBI just go 

3254
02:39:25,600 --> 02:39:29,360
to trial on a misused bench 
trial out of stolen Ballard. the

3255
02:39:29,360 --> 02:39:32,200
US Attorney's office agreed to 
prosecute the guy went to trial.

3256
02:39:32,360 --> 02:39:34,880
That's wild. 
So that was kind of kind of fun.

3257
02:39:34,880 --> 02:39:36,480
Yeah, he didn't get, he got 
convicted. 

3258
02:39:37,120 --> 02:39:39,280
He just got like community 
service and fine but. 

3259
02:39:39,680 --> 02:39:42,400
But the publicities? 
It's a big part of it, too. 

3260
02:39:42,400 --> 02:39:44,360
Yeah. 
It's it's a it's a deterrent. 

3261
02:39:44,800 --> 02:39:46,920
It's a deterrent, right? 
And that's the other piece of 

3262
02:39:46,920 --> 02:39:48,600
it. 
You know who, Don? 

3263
02:39:48,600 --> 02:39:50,000
Do you know Don Shipley? 
You're familiar. 

3264
02:39:50,000 --> 02:39:54,200
With him oh of course, yeah and 
and obviously his son is a is a 

3265
02:39:54,200 --> 02:40:00,120
world class stud who's who's 
seen his pet yeah DJ is just 

3266
02:40:00,120 --> 02:40:03,840
awesome DJ I know DJI didn't 
know DJ no, but I'll tell you 

3267
02:40:03,840 --> 02:40:05,560
what I. 
It's so strange, like his 

3268
02:40:05,560 --> 02:40:07,200
stories a. 
Lot of his stories are so 

3269
02:40:07,560 --> 02:40:09,520
touching to people. 
Who? 

3270
02:40:09,960 --> 02:40:11,560
You know, I've got a lot of 
buddies in the special 

3271
02:40:11,560 --> 02:40:14,680
operations community and, and 
one of the, you know, I was, I 

3272
02:40:14,680 --> 02:40:17,280
was working out listening to his
podcast with Shawn Ryan at one 

3273
02:40:17,280 --> 02:40:19,160
point. 
And I don't know if you've heard

3274
02:40:19,160 --> 02:40:21,800
it, but you know, folks, if you 
haven't heard, yeah, it's one of

3275
02:40:21,800 --> 02:40:23,080
the more moving things I've ever
heard. 

3276
02:40:23,080 --> 02:40:25,480
And I, I literally was like, I 
was lifting weights and I just 

3277
02:40:25,480 --> 02:40:27,840
broke down and I had tears 
running dead in my face because 

3278
02:40:27,840 --> 02:40:30,160
it's like, I know those stories.
Like I have friends who who 

3279
02:40:30,160 --> 02:40:32,360
have, you know, who have, he was
talking about, you know, wanting

3280
02:40:32,360 --> 02:40:34,840
to kill himself. 
And when I was actually at at 

3281
02:40:34,840 --> 02:40:38,280
Quantico, my recruiter, who I 
didn't have a very close 

3282
02:40:38,280 --> 02:40:40,720
relationship with, but he was an
important person in my life. 

3283
02:40:41,760 --> 02:40:47,320
His brother had died in a in a 
one of those Chinook crashes 

3284
02:40:47,320 --> 02:40:49,920
that he was with a bunch of SEAL
Team six guys. 

3285
02:40:50,280 --> 02:40:53,960
So as the, you know, the this 
was right after the bin Laden 

3286
02:40:53,960 --> 02:40:55,000
raid. 
It was like a couple months 

3287
02:40:55,000 --> 02:40:56,320
later and somebody lasted, 
correct. 

3288
02:40:56,320 --> 02:40:59,840
And that was exactly, but 
anyway, this, you know, Sean 

3289
02:40:59,840 --> 02:41:01,920
Harvell, which is the name of 
my, the guy that recruited me, 

3290
02:41:01,920 --> 02:41:03,880
his brother's name was Andy. 
And he was apparently like a 

3291
02:41:03,880 --> 02:41:05,960
world class stud and a great 
guy. 

3292
02:41:06,280 --> 02:41:10,040
And Sean was just like one of 
the most intense human beings 

3293
02:41:10,040 --> 02:41:12,360
that I've ever seen in my life. 
And I heard all these stories 

3294
02:41:12,360 --> 02:41:14,160
about him when I was active duty
as well, because see what I 

3295
02:41:14,160 --> 02:41:15,160
mean? 
It's a small community that I 

3296
02:41:15,160 --> 02:41:18,400
worked in. 
And you know, he, it looks like 

3297
02:41:18,400 --> 02:41:21,440
he, you know, climbed into a 
bottle and, and walked into the 

3298
02:41:21,440 --> 02:41:23,560
waves. 
And, you know, he was a world 

3299
02:41:23,560 --> 02:41:27,640
class stud in the water and, and
he didn't come out and, and so 

3300
02:41:27,640 --> 02:41:29,560
they found him floating. 
And I, anyway, I found that out 

3301
02:41:29,560 --> 02:41:32,080
when I was at Quantico. 
And it's like, anyway, hearing 

3302
02:41:32,080 --> 02:41:34,520
what happened with DJ and it's 
like, like the people that are 

3303
02:41:34,520 --> 02:41:38,640
committed to these types of this
kind of the people that are that

3304
02:41:38,680 --> 02:41:41,760
tear and, and honestly, anybody 
who, who's stealing valor from 

3305
02:41:41,760 --> 02:41:44,400
guys like this, it is a real 
crime. 

3306
02:41:44,400 --> 02:41:46,800
Like, I don't, I, I find it 
disgusting. 

3307
02:41:46,800 --> 02:41:48,920
It's like when, you know, when 
you got friends who have gone 

3308
02:41:48,920 --> 02:41:50,920
through there that are wearing 
a, you know, a bracelet from a 

3309
02:41:50,920 --> 02:41:52,920
friend of theirs that died. 
And it didn't have to be from 

3310
02:41:52,920 --> 02:41:55,280
something anybody knows about or
anybody ever heard about. 

3311
02:41:56,120 --> 02:41:58,240
And then someone's going to put 
on a uniform that they didn't 

3312
02:41:58,240 --> 02:41:59,560
deserve that they have no right 
to. 

3313
02:41:59,560 --> 02:42:02,080
And they didn't do a freaking 
combat jump into anything like 

3314
02:42:02,080 --> 02:42:04,200
they never earned a mustard say 
they may not even earn their 

3315
02:42:04,200 --> 02:42:07,360
wings, which is no, you know, 
it's not even a big deal to fall

3316
02:42:07,360 --> 02:42:09,040
out of the back of AC 1:30 
because I've done it. 

3317
02:42:09,040 --> 02:42:11,120
And it's like, you know, like I 
wouldn't go bragging to anybody.

3318
02:42:11,120 --> 02:42:14,440
I did it. 
It's fun, it's stupid, there's 

3319
02:42:14,440 --> 02:42:16,240
funny stories out of it, but 
it's not like, you know, a 

3320
02:42:16,280 --> 02:42:19,720
combat shop is a real 30% of the
people in the combat shop end up

3321
02:42:19,720 --> 02:42:22,280
with broken bones and, you know,
don't walk right afterwards. 

3322
02:42:22,280 --> 02:42:27,000
So there there is, there is. 
You have to. 

3323
02:42:27,360 --> 02:42:30,600
Sometimes you see these guys get
a little overzealous. 

3324
02:42:30,600 --> 02:42:33,240
Because there are some people 
with some legitimate like mental

3325
02:42:33,240 --> 02:42:37,560
health issues and, and you got 
to, there's a fine line between 

3326
02:42:37,560 --> 02:42:39,960
somebody like that who's wearing
something maybe they, they 

3327
02:42:39,960 --> 02:42:44,800
shouldn't be wearing. 
I mean, you know, it's it's but.

3328
02:42:46,440 --> 02:42:47,480
Well, if you're going to go, 
yeah. 

3329
02:42:47,480 --> 02:42:49,400
But if you're going to go to the
Medal of Honor convention and 

3330
02:42:49,400 --> 02:42:51,640
try to be that guy. 
That's a different. 

3331
02:42:51,640 --> 02:42:53,480
That's a totally different. 
Animal than the guy who was 

3332
02:42:53,480 --> 02:42:55,480
outside. 
The you know, it's like I, I 

3333
02:42:55,480 --> 02:42:58,560
remember somebody was trying to,
he was trying to beg money off 

3334
02:42:58,560 --> 02:43:00,240
me when I was washing my car or 
something like that. 

3335
02:43:00,240 --> 02:43:02,720
And he started telling me about,
you know, a battalion that 

3336
02:43:02,720 --> 02:43:04,800
didn't exist. 
And he was giving me this, you 

3337
02:43:04,800 --> 02:43:06,280
know, this. 
It's like, I don't know what 

3338
02:43:06,280 --> 02:43:07,960
you're saying, but those things 
don't make any sense. 

3339
02:43:07,960 --> 02:43:11,280
Like you're mixing services and 
MO s s that don't have anything 

3340
02:43:11,280 --> 02:43:13,440
to do with you. 
Like you're talking to the wrong

3341
02:43:13,440 --> 02:43:14,800
guy. 
Like I'm not giving any money. 

3342
02:43:14,800 --> 02:43:15,960
Like I'm sorry that you're 
troubled. 

3343
02:43:15,960 --> 02:43:18,240
Whatever your problems is, that 
guy doesn't need to go to jail. 

3344
02:43:18,520 --> 02:43:20,120
That guy doesn't even need to be
shamed in court. 

3345
02:43:20,200 --> 02:43:22,280
But if you're going to show up 
at the Medal of Honor convention

3346
02:43:22,280 --> 02:43:23,920
and wear a Medal of Honor, 
that's not yours. 

3347
02:43:24,680 --> 02:43:27,400
Like we can't have that in this 
country. 

3348
02:43:27,480 --> 02:43:29,000
And you know, that's that's a 
misdemeanor. 

3349
02:43:29,000 --> 02:43:32,720
I'm not mad at he I did 
interview the guy. 

3350
02:43:32,720 --> 02:43:36,080
I was asked to interview him 
after it was over and he was 

3351
02:43:36,080 --> 02:43:38,840
very remorseful. 
He had been in the army and he'd

3352
02:43:38,840 --> 02:43:40,680
been injured. 
And I said, here's what I'd like

3353
02:43:40,680 --> 02:43:42,280
you to do. 
Yeah. 

3354
02:43:42,280 --> 02:43:47,080
In fact, I think maybe Tom 
Catone or somebody has suggested

3355
02:43:47,080 --> 02:43:50,520
this, that he write a letter of 
apology and send it to. 

3356
02:43:51,640 --> 02:43:55,040
At the time. 
Robert Howard was the president 

3357
02:43:55,040 --> 02:43:57,360
of the Medal of Honor, and if 
you've never heard his story, 

3358
02:43:57,360 --> 02:44:00,800
he's a true bad ass. 
I mean, just Special forces, 

3359
02:44:04,040 --> 02:44:07,240
Vietnam, that I think he's got 2
like 2 distinguished service 

3360
02:44:07,240 --> 02:44:08,960
crosses in addition to the Medal
of Honor. 

3361
02:44:09,000 --> 02:44:12,480
Just an unbelievable bad ass. 
So, but the guy did follow up. 

3362
02:44:12,480 --> 02:44:15,120
He wrote a letter of apology 
because we got confirmation from

3363
02:44:15,120 --> 02:44:17,320
the mail. 
It's you know, it doesn't have 

3364
02:44:17,320 --> 02:44:19,880
to be resolved in with criminal 
charges. 

3365
02:44:19,880 --> 02:44:23,200
But no, you're right, exposure, 
they apologize or something like

3366
02:44:23,200 --> 02:44:24,880
that. 
It's usually sufficient. 

3367
02:44:25,080 --> 02:44:27,400
So it's honestly the way I used 
to like to handle my guardians 

3368
02:44:27,400 --> 02:44:29,080
too. 
It's like I don't need to 

3369
02:44:29,080 --> 02:44:31,400
develop a big case. 
I just call you and tell you you

3370
02:44:31,400 --> 02:44:32,800
crossed the line or you're right
near. 

3371
02:44:32,800 --> 02:44:34,360
It and please don't make me do 
this again. 

3372
02:44:34,600 --> 02:44:37,440
And most times that I mean that 
that is the community service 

3373
02:44:37,440 --> 02:44:40,400
that we can do a lot of times 
for some of the smaller foolish 

3374
02:44:40,400 --> 02:44:44,080
things as, as you know, like I 
said, when people, when the FBI 

3375
02:44:44,080 --> 02:44:46,000
calls, people tend to answer. 
I don't know why they do. 

3376
02:44:46,120 --> 02:44:47,960
And when you knock on the door, 
they tend to talk to you. 

3377
02:44:48,200 --> 02:44:50,200
And if you can make a difference
and say, like, maybe we 

3378
02:44:50,200 --> 02:44:52,600
couldn't, maybe we just not have
this talk again, that'd be 

3379
02:44:52,600 --> 02:44:54,480
really great. 
Maybe don't say anything stupid 

3380
02:44:54,480 --> 02:44:58,000
and threatening on Twitter. 
You know, there's an impact 

3381
02:44:58,000 --> 02:45:01,200
there rather than this, this 
sadness that we're saying where 

3382
02:45:01,200 --> 02:45:03,400
they're running down all these 
people from January 6th and 

3383
02:45:03,800 --> 02:45:05,720
people who walked around inside 
the velvet ropes and they're 

3384
02:45:05,720 --> 02:45:07,040
trying to send this horrible 
message. 

3385
02:45:07,640 --> 02:45:10,840
Yeah, it could have been a not 
going to talk and it probably 

3386
02:45:10,880 --> 02:45:12,280
would have been the end of it 
for a lot of people. 

3387
02:45:12,440 --> 02:45:16,680
And I think to be fair, I think 
they got the damn message with 

3388
02:45:16,680 --> 02:45:18,440
the way the news media has 
crucified them. 

3389
02:45:18,920 --> 02:45:22,520
But anyway, it's just it's sad 
that we've got to that point. 

3390
02:45:23,680 --> 02:45:24,760
I'm going to, I'm going to call 
today. 

3391
02:45:24,760 --> 02:45:27,320
We're at 2:45 here. 
So that was a pretty nice long 

3392
02:45:27,320 --> 02:45:29,720
chat. 
I do appreciate you, Jerry, 

3393
02:45:29,720 --> 02:45:32,000
giving me so much time and 
sharing your story with us. 

3394
02:45:32,280 --> 02:45:34,600
I know I will post that if you 
get some follow-ups from 

3395
02:45:34,640 --> 02:45:37,880
Wisconsin DOJ, that'd be great. 
And producer Phil is not with 

3396
02:45:37,880 --> 02:45:39,360
me. 
I'm doing the solo, but he told 

3397
02:45:39,360 --> 02:45:43,080
me that I need to read a five 
star review. 

3398
02:45:43,080 --> 02:45:45,200
So we do. 
If you do like our conversation,

3399
02:45:45,200 --> 02:45:46,600
please share it. 
Please like it, please 

3400
02:45:46,600 --> 02:45:49,880
subscribe. 
And if you leave us a five star 

3401
02:45:49,880 --> 02:45:51,400
review, we'll read one of them 
on the show. 

3402
02:45:51,400 --> 02:45:54,520
So here's what we got from our 
five star review of the day. 

3403
02:45:55,120 --> 02:45:59,160
It said a fed on your side. 
Kyle and the suspendables have a

3404
02:45:59,160 --> 02:46:01,960
great sense of humor. 
The show gives you a perspective

3405
02:46:02,320 --> 02:46:06,200
of the federal leviathan which 
has morphed into the Deep State.

3406
02:46:06,200 --> 02:46:08,640
I would have never guessed that 
I would have so wholeheartedly 

3407
02:46:08,640 --> 02:46:12,320
agreed with an FBI agent. 
Kudos for listing your preferred

3408
02:46:12,320 --> 02:46:19,000
pronouns. 5 star review from 
AP711-C GFTI Don't know what the

3409
02:46:19,000 --> 02:46:21,680
heck that name is. 
That is not a name, sadly 

3410
02:46:21,680 --> 02:46:23,480
enough, Jerry. 
I think most people probably 

3411
02:46:23,480 --> 02:46:29,320
would have previously agreed 
with most of what people in our 

3412
02:46:29,320 --> 02:46:33,160
in our job were like. 
I think that is that that would 

3413
02:46:33,160 --> 02:46:35,040
have been the the default 
position. 

3414
02:46:35,560 --> 02:46:37,360
And unfortunately it is no 
longer. 

3415
02:46:38,680 --> 02:46:43,280
No, that's unfortunate. 
Hopefully it can change. 

3416
02:46:43,640 --> 02:46:45,720
Yeah, but it's going to be a 
heavy lift. 

3417
02:46:46,040 --> 02:46:49,120
It is or or it has to be or it 
has to be torn all the way down 

3418
02:46:49,120 --> 02:46:53,120
and maybe something new fills 
that spot that, yeah, I do 

3419
02:46:53,120 --> 02:46:54,880
appreciate. 
You joining me folks, This has 

3420
02:46:54,880 --> 02:46:58,680
been the Kyle Seraphin show and 
please join us again. 

3421
02:46:58,720 --> 02:47:00,680
If you like what you're here, 
share with your friends. 

3422
02:47:00,960 --> 02:47:04,280
Thank you so much. 
Thanks for listening to the Kyle

3423
02:47:04,280 --> 02:47:07,080
Seraphin show. 
Be sure to follow him on Twitter

3424
02:47:07,080 --> 02:47:09,360
and Truth at Kyle Seraphin.