1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,000 Take a look behind the curtain with a real whistle blower, an 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,520 American patriot prepared to embrace the uncomfortable truth. 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,880 Because this program has no time for comforting lies. 4 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,160 Here is civil liberties enthusiasts, Second Amendment 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,760 defender and recovering FBI agent Kyle Seraphin. 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:23,560 Hello my friends, and welcome to the Kyle Seraphin show. 7 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,920 Today is Wednesday, it is January the 17th, and we've got 8 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,240 a very interesting show for you. Today we're going to be talking 9 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:34,840 to Doctor J Michael Waller. He's a think tank analyst, he's 10 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,920 a journalist, he's a man who has seen some very interesting 11 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,400 things and a recent author of the book Big Intel. 12 00:00:42,160 --> 00:00:44,880 We'll be teasing that here in just a second, and we'll give 13 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:46,920 you some links in the show descriptions where you can find 14 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:48,240 that out. Before we get into our 15 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,240 interview, which I think you will enjoy immensely. 16 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:52,320 Let's say thanks to a number of our sponsors right up front. 17 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:53,920 Let's say thanks to my buddies over at Catholic Vote. 18 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:56,320 You guys know how to get there. Go to catholicvote.org. 19 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,520 Just type in your e-mail address and your zip code and you can 20 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,600 click Link me in. If you want to see the loop, hit 21 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:04,840 the loop right there. That's the yellow button on the 22 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:06,520 screen. You can also give generously if 23 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:08,520 you want to click on the green button up at the top right hand 24 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,160 side to donate to Catholic Vote, America's top advocacy group for 25 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,480 faith, family and freedom. I'm going to be hanging out with 26 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,000 them later on today once I catch my flight. 27 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,160 And you guys should definitely support them. 28 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,160 They've been supporting us, The Kyle Sarapan show, if you like 29 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,760 what we're doing, they're one of the reasons why we're able to do 30 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:25,560 it. So we appreciate it. 31 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,480 Again, catholicvote.org. You can sign up for the loop and 32 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:32,440 you can give to their advocacy. They are in the fate, the fight 33 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:35,920 every day. All right, also want to say 34 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:37,520 thanks to my buddies over at 4 Patriots. 35 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,440 There you go. Don't get yourself caught out in 36 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,400 the cold. That is the time that we are 37 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,600 dealing with right now. Look at this bottom little, what 38 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:45,680 is it bottom left hand side of the screen you're seeing 39 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,000 smashing things into ice. Don't be that person where you 40 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,800 got phones in the ice, your hands are cold, you got no way 41 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,080 to warm up. 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The promo code is Kyle. 75 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,120 It saves you 10%. You can also spend 50 bucks and 76 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,600 get free shipping, so check them out. 77 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,640 You can look at the hard sided, the soft sided, the backpack 78 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,880 style and the tumble tumblers, the double wall tumblers. 79 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,520 They are better than Yeti. We have just proved it our in 80 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,600 our little one-on-one side by side accidental test the other 81 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,200 day while at church in the parking lot keeping hot apple 82 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,120 cider hot. It survived and did a 83 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,360 significantly better job to the point where I couldn't give my 84 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,520 youngest the the hot beverage he could have the one from the Yeti 85 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:00,640 because it was already cooled off and was just lukewarm. 86 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,840 Check themoutagain@patriotcoolers.com 87 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,600 and the promo code is Kyle. Kyle, Ladies and gentlemen, 88 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,600 joining me for today's Kyle Seraphin show is J Michael 89 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,520 Waller, who goes by Mike. Unless I'm very mistaken, that's 90 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:16,480 what I. Always call you, so hopefully 91 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,880 that's OK. And Mike Waller is the recent 92 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,880 author of a book called Big Again, Tell how the CIA and the 93 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,600 FBI went from Cold War heroes to Deep state villains. 94 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:25,880 It's going to be released this week. 95 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:27,440 You guys should be able to find it on Amazon. 96 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:29,720 We'll make sure that the links are in the description for you. 97 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:32,920 Mike, thanks for joining me. Great to be here. 98 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,080 All right, buddy, and I made you download a Google product, no 99 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:37,680 less. It was, it's a terrible 100 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,520 experience, but yeah, it's, it's better than visiting the local 101 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,280 field office. All right, so you're a security 102 00:04:43,280 --> 00:04:47,360 analyst, you work for a think tank in DC, but I also remember 103 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,440 your previous Twitter bio said that you were like a one 104 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,480 thousandth generation American. You guys basically put the soil 105 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,520 in place in order for the American continent to to exist. 106 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:58,160 What's the story there? How long has your family been in 107 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,920 this in this area? Oh well, if you don't include 108 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:02,520 the American Indian side, we need to. 109 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:04,160 Include that we can't, we can't discount it this. 110 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:05,640 We're not trying to get cancelled today. 111 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,600 I want to be diverse here and inclusive but but not equitable. 112 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,360 So but but my first English settler side came over on the 113 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,120 supply ship for the Mayflower, which really wasn't a supply 114 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:17,720 ship at all. It was just a bunch more 115 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,960 colonists coming in who didn't have supplies. 116 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,600 So we were the next ship in in 1621. 117 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,360 That goes back a long way. Yeah. 118 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,800 And has your family always been, are you all E coasters? 119 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:31,800 Has that always stayed there? Yeah. 120 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,760 And what part of the New England? 121 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:38,520 There's some, there's the Southern Wallers were different. 122 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,640 They were in a different group. So we invaded Ireland with 123 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:42,680 Cromwell. They came over earlier. 124 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,040 You say the Southern Wallers. I love that. 125 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,440 I want to have factions of my family where I can do that. 126 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,080 We're not that we haven't been here that long to do that. 127 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,360 The Southern Wallers. All right, Mike, you, you have 128 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,080 an incredible life story. Your your book kind of I told 129 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,480 people that it reads like a Clancy or a Ludlum novel. 130 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,560 And if people are not spy novel fans, they don't know what I'm 131 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:03,080 talking about. But will you kind of tell 132 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,120 people, you know, where you came from, where you grew up? 133 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:06,800 Obviously you've got deep roots in America. 134 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,320 And then let's get into your story and, and how that came 135 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,720 into writing this book. Well, it's kind of almost like a 136 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,200 Forrest Gump experience as opposed to a Clancy or a loved 137 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,360 1. And I sort of just was there at 138 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,240 the time of things and I was just ended up being part of 139 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:25,560 events and and, and, and even history. 140 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:29,200 So it was kind of it was a neat experience where where I 141 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,480 thankfully didn't get into Georgetown University. 142 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,600 I had been trained first and we came from a non political 143 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:40,760 family, rural New England and patriotic Americans but 144 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,840 completely non political and and my grandpa voted one party and 145 00:06:44,840 --> 00:06:47,280 my grandmother voted another party and we never knew till 146 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:49,120 they passed away which party they were in. 147 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,880 So it was that kind of a kind of a family. 148 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,720 But when I was a teenager I got interested in the anti nuclear 149 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,320 energy movement. And this was in the mid to late 150 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,440 70s because I was concerned about the environment, what 151 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:06,040 nature, what was going to happen to boiling water coming out of 152 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,040 the cooling part of the reactor being dumped into the ocean and 153 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,880 what was going to happen to the fish beds off the New England 154 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,080 coast. So that was my concern and I was 155 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:19,120 brought in to struggle sessions after a while. 156 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,040 These were professional agitators from California who 157 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,520 came in to recruit high school kids who had been recruited by 158 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:31,840 their teachers who were all, you know, anti Vietnam War activists 159 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,040 and stuff. And and going through struggle 160 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,320 sessions where they then berated me and wanted me to berate 161 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,040 myself, which I wouldn't do that. 162 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,400 How stupid it is to be for the environment when the real 163 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:46,320 struggle is to fight American capitalism. 164 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:48,480 Right. Yeah, of course. 165 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,960 How old are you at that? Time I was about. 15 That's 166 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,120 really and and what about your peers? 167 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:56,840 What kind of peers were in these struggle sessions? 168 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:58,840 Or was it like a, you know, a gang scenario? 169 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,640 It was it was a gang scenario. And then we were peeled off 170 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,600 individually, OK, We were three, you know, older people from 171 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,360 California. And when you're 15 years old, 172 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,920 somebody's in their 30s or 40s, they seem really old. 173 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:12,360 And these people were really intense. 174 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,840 And I thought, no, just this is not for me. 175 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,000 These people are really bad people. 176 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:22,480 So I sort of declared a personal war against this kind of 177 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,760 subversive movement, recruiting kids, turning them into anti 178 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,040 American radicals when they were joining for innocent purposes. 179 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:32,360 What would the lifelong interest? 180 00:08:32,919 --> 00:08:35,760 Yeah, So you're anti nuclear. That seems like a thing that at 181 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,440 least I don't know whether it makes sense now to you or not, 182 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,840 but, you know, loving the environment's not a terrible 183 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:42,640 sort of virtue. And the Sierra Club and so on 184 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:44,680 and so forth, they're not awful, at least by nature. 185 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,640 And then they're trying to subvert this and turn it into an 186 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:49,920 anti American sentiment that American capitalism is the 187 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:50,720 actual problem. Right. 188 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,240 Is that where people do it? Where the other kids in the area 189 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:54,520 are like going like, Oh yeah, you're right. 190 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,480 There were, there were, they were not as many as they wanted 191 00:08:58,480 --> 00:08:59,560 to. And this was a neat thing 192 00:08:59,560 --> 00:09:03,880 because the at that time the the pro Soviet far left wasn't 193 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:05,320 attracting young people very much. 194 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,000 So they were they were really open about who they accepted 195 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,680 into their movement. But for our purposes here, I was 196 00:09:12,680 --> 00:09:15,240 brought into a larger group of different high school kids from 197 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,800 different parts of my state to go through training. 198 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:18,960 So we didn't even know each other. 199 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:22,000 I guess that's part of the the advantage. 200 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,400 If you don't know anybody, you don't have any kind of natural 201 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,760 defenses maybe or or clicks or allies. 202 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:30,160 Why do you think it wasn't successful? 203 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:31,760 Because it seems like it's pretty successful now. 204 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:33,320 If they wanted to push that, I think it would be very 205 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,280 successful. There's something that must have 206 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,480 changed in the in the interim. Well, they did succeed in that 207 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,680 they they succeeded in shutting down construction of one nuclear 208 00:09:42,680 --> 00:09:44,120 reactor. It was supposed to be a dual 209 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:45,760 reactor. This is the Seabrook nuclear 210 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,480 power plant in New Hampshire. So they they succeeded in, you 211 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,520 know, to this day there's only one nuclear reactor. 212 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,520 So New England is importing gas from Putin, trying to make it 213 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,280 look like they're not, but they have been. 214 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:02,440 They've got an offshore pipeline off Cape Cod where the ships 215 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:04,200 dock, so they can't even be seen now. 216 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,840 And they used to dock right up in Boston Harbor, but after So 217 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,440 you don't even see these Russian ships coming in to supply gas to 218 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:15,360 mainly Massachusetts. So so now what's this? 219 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,520 What 40 plus years later, the the the chief sources of energy 220 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:24,600 in northern New England are oil, nuclear energy and wood. 221 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,840 Right and. You get your sustainable energy 222 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,880 green tax credits. Well, at least through 2023. 223 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:37,120 If you buy an iron stove that burns trees, you get the same 224 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,520 tax credit you would get for buying solar panels because it's 225 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,080 considered renewable energy. Makes sense to me and everything 226 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,160 old is new again. The, the interesting, I guess 227 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:48,440 piece to that is that you see these kind of like memes online 228 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,840 and I, I always think that memes kind of say 1000 words. 229 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,560 They, they, they put so much in one place and it's like people 230 00:10:53,560 --> 00:10:55,760 that are arguing against Russia, they're so awful. 231 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:56,880 That's why we got to do this thing. 232 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:58,920 And at the end of the like the meme, they're buying Russian oil 233 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,760 and gas and they fully put on the clown wig and the mask and 234 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,600 the makeup and they've a clown themselves over and over again 235 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,640 because all these things end up serving the exact thing that 236 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,000 they claim that they're against. I wonder if that's on purpose or 237 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:10,360 are people really just that ignorant? 238 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:11,760 I can't really tell either. Well. 239 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,000 I don't know because you people like Elizabeth Warren of 240 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,920 Massachusetts who was behind this deal with the Russians, you 241 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,440 know, they shut down the both the Pilgrim reactors in 242 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,400 Massachusetts. The reactors could have been 243 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,400 renewed. They shut down the reactor in 244 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:27,480 Vermont. They shut down the main Yankee 245 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,040 reactors. So the only one left is Seabrook 246 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,720 in northern New England and that's powering 3 states. 247 00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:36,200 They didn't want to have hydro coming down from Quebec because 248 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,200 that would involve cutting down trees to put in a power line. 249 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:40,960 So they've they've really screwed themselves. 250 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,840 People like Elizabeth Warren who are pushing for this on the 251 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,600 side, let's buy gas from Putin kind of secretly at the same 252 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,960 time she's out there lobbying Barack Obama. 253 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:55,800 This was years ago to exonerate Soviet Atom bombs by Ethel 254 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,360 Rosenberg. I'll be thinking what what, what 255 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,440 kind of agenda are these people in? 256 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,960 If you averse of it for a long time, you can kind of figure it 257 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:06,920 out, but it sounds strange to the average American. 258 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:08,800 Well, we're looking at them. We know they're not dumb, 259 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:10,680 although they appear that you know they're, they're happy to 260 00:12:10,680 --> 00:12:13,880 appear dumb or say things that are dumb that motivates a base. 261 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:15,400 But then in the background, they're doing all these 262 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:17,920 nefarious actions that look very calculated. 263 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,200 You have more exposure to these people than than most, at least 264 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:23,920 dealing in Washington to see the way you do. 265 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,360 Would you agree they're not dumb that there is at least some 266 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,520 motivation or they're not just? Operating, they're not, they're 267 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:32,440 not dumb. They're, they're, they're really 268 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,920 sharp people. They, they, a lot of them know 269 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:36,480 how to make a lot of money in office. 270 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,520 They know how to pressure crazy agendas on the American public 271 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,360 and how to, you know, they know what they're doing. 272 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,400 You, you, you cannot have somebody like Senator Ed Markey 273 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,200 of Massachusetts, who when he was a congressman, or now 274 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,600 Congressman Jim McGovern of Massachusetts when he was a 275 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,640 congressional staffer helping communist insurgents in Latin 276 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,400 America under President Reagan. And they have. 277 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,400 It's not like it was a youthful stupidity or indiscretion. 278 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,360 It was they have been on this for their entire political 279 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:05,880 lives. They're pushing something. 280 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:07,200 They know precisely what they're doing. 281 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:09,720 All right, so you've got a pretty good insight into this. 282 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,360 Like you said, Forrest Gump was the other analogy, by the way. 283 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,000 It's it's either Clancy, Ludlam or Forrest Gump who just touched 284 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:17,640 all these interesting key points in history. 285 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,680 When I first started perusing your book, that was what drew me 286 00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:21,960 in. I was like, whoa, what is this 287 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:23,840 guy all about? He's been all these different 288 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:25,880 things. He kind of has these crazy 289 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,200 experiences that you'd think you had to plan it. 290 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:31,840 And then in reality, we know that it's just like you're more 291 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:33,680 likely to just kind of accidentally Forrest Gump your 292 00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:35,320 way into it. Tracy Beans, my buddy was 293 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:36,760 reading. She was like, I'm absolutely 294 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:38,760 engrossed by this. I sent her over that sort of 295 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:40,560 advanced comedy. So she would and she'll probably 296 00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:42,600 interview you as well. So let's give people this, 297 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,160 you're 15, you're getting this anti nuclear energy situation. 298 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,680 You're you're running into commies from California doing 299 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:51,840 struggle sessions and that kicks off your personal jihad, which I 300 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:52,960 like that word. So we'll just use it real 301 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,280 quickly. Tell people where that took you 302 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:57,760 in the next couple years and how you ended up doing some of the 303 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,000 wild things that you did, which are right in the first pages of 304 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,200 the book. That'll hook people. 305 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,000 In So I ended up going to George Washington University, and this 306 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,880 was in the late summer of 1980. So Jimmy Carter's President 307 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,720 Reagan is on the verge of being brought in. 308 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:12,320 He's going to start a nuclear war. 309 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,680 He's going to, you know, destroy the world. 310 00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:16,800 There's all this terrible propaganda going on about 311 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,360 Reagan. So I cast my absentee ballot for 312 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,720 Reagan from my dorm, but I had to show my ID and apply in 313 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:28,000 writing and explain to my town office why I needed to vote 314 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,760 absentee. But those were the old days when 315 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:32,360 you needed those types of things. 316 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:33,640 Yeah, well, we had some sort of basic. 317 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:35,080 Common sense. Yeah. 318 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,480 Yeah, So. So imagine being a freshman kid 319 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,000 three blocks from the White House when Reagan is inaugurated 320 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,360 president and his inaugural parade breaks up on your campus. 321 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,800 I'd gone in as a congressional intern and my congressman was 322 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,040 retiring. And he said, hey, you wouldn't 323 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:56,920 do any good in my office because I'm retiring. 324 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:58,920 Why don't you go intern in the Senate? 325 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:03,240 So he called up my US senator, Gordon Humphrey, and said, hey, 326 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,840 if this kid from the state, would you like to have him in? 327 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,280 And so, so boom, I'm in. And who's there 22 cubicles away 328 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,640 from me? But this guy, very nice guy, but 329 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:15,600 kind of quiet, always on the phone like this. 330 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:21,120 In the fall of 1980, Morton Blackwell, who then disappears 331 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:25,720 the day after Reagan's elected to join Reagan's transition 332 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:27,200 team. And he becomes one of Reagan's 333 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:29,480 main policy people. And his whole, he'd come up 334 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,200 through youth politics. So he said, hey, come on and 335 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,000 join us. Come to this thing called CPAC, 336 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,640 CPAC 81. How long Reagan was there, Bill 337 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:39,520 Casey was there, and all these other people were there? 338 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:40,520 Yeah. How long had it been going at 339 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:41,920 that time? Was it relatively new? 340 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,200 It was just a few years old. OK, yeah. 341 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,240 And it wasn't anywhere near like it is. 342 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,720 It's a hotel space and people come in and speak in the big 343 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:53,280 rooms and there are hospitality suites. 344 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,320 But you get to meet all of these people. 345 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,480 You could just, you know, meet the Reagan's and say hello to 346 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,120 them and get your picture taken with them and all that. 347 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:01,600 It was a really, really cool time. 348 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,320 And so you're there as a kid and they say, say, what are you 349 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:05,240 doing? And then who's there? 350 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,400 Roy Cohn, lawyer, who would. He'd been, you know, Joe 351 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,760 McCarthy's investigator in the 1950s. 352 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,720 And you had, you had all these old people from the OSS and, 353 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,040 and, and legends from World War 2 and all these other folks and 354 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:20,640 you'd get to meet them and just hang out with them. 355 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:23,880 So it was being in that environment where you have all 356 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,240 these opportunities come up and just stumble right into them. 357 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,120 Do you remember thinking that you were touching pieces of 358 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,480 history that we're going to be written about and spoken about 359 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,960 for 100 years at the time, Or what was your sense of the of 360 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:36,680 the environment when you were walking through? 361 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,360 No, it was cool because it was Reagan. 362 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,680 It was, I mean, we were looking for girls and so we weren't, you 363 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:45,240 know, and it was a good venue for that. 364 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,080 But but Megan's a movie. Star too, and like we we forget 365 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:49,720 that. I think at least my generation 366 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:51,440 does because he wasn't a movie star to me. 367 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:53,760 But. He was, you know, California's 368 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,560 governor, but he was also a movie star. 369 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,160 That was like his big thing. And he was head of the Screen 370 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,640 Actors Guild, and that was one of his experiences. 371 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,960 He was a Liberal Democrat who was head of the Screen Actors 372 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,200 Guild union. Then he testified before 373 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,119 Congress about communists in Hollywood. 374 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,480 This was in the in the 40s or 50s. 375 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,280 This was long, long ago. So he was on this back then. 376 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,480 But you, you get to meet these people and some of them you're 377 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,079 just a kid. So they don't know who you are 378 00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:24,200 and and so forth. And you don't know who they are. 379 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,560 Like, I didn't know. I'd never heard of Roy Cohn when 380 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,120 I met him. I just knew about him after the 381 00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:30,320 fact. So you just bump into these 382 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:31,680 people without knowing who they are. 383 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:34,080 This is my life right now too, by the way. 384 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,240 I keep meeting people and they go, oh, this is so and so. 385 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:37,440 And I go, oh, it's really nice to meet you. 386 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,360 And then I find out later I'm like, oh, that person some some 387 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,360 national relevance. I probably should have known 388 00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:43,880 that beforehand. It's kind of fun. 389 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:45,320 It's kind of fun to Forrest Gump through it. 390 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,680 So as you're meeting these folks and you mentioned youth politics 391 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,280 and obviously you're now involved in youth politics. 392 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:56,040 You're, you're an intern, yes. But was that a driving force? 393 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,840 Did people look at it as a driving force to be able to move 394 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,160 national politics and and the needle at least in the 1980s? 395 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:03,880 Was that something that people were driven to? 396 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,440 Yeah, yeah. They were very much so. 397 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,600 And Reagan was really conscious of it because for him, groups 398 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:11,920 like Young Americans for Freedom, which was his favorite 399 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,040 youth group, and the College Republicans, were vital to his 400 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:16,800 electoral victories in California. 401 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,880 They were active in supporting him, especially Young Americans 402 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,240 for Freedom. In his 1976 presidential 403 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,120 campaign. John was his favorite youth 404 00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:27,160 group. And this was back when John 405 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,640 Wayne was signing direct mail letters for for Young Americans 406 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:33,880 for Freedom, right? So you get the, I think was it 407 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,160 Jimmy Doolittle or some of these other great World War 2 figures 408 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,640 were signing direct mail for for this youth group. 409 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,280 This was right before I came on, but Reagan had had helped do 410 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,440 fundraising for Young Americans for Freedom back then. 411 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,720 So it was a great time to be in youth politics and we really 412 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:51,080 didn't know where we were going to go. 413 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,400 Some come into Washington with a big agenda. 414 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:55,880 I want to be a senator someday. I want to be this and that. 415 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,000 And those are your more often times cutthroat people with, 416 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,520 let's say, fluid ethics. Yeah, morality. 417 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,480 That's a bit flexible. Yeah, yeah. 418 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,520 And you could see it at the time, but then in hindsight, you 419 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:09,960 can really, really, really see it. 420 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,800 So other people just sort of went along and said let's just 421 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,480 let's just do stuff. And that's sort of where I fell 422 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,360 in. All right, So what comes up 423 00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:20,320 next? So let's see, you got into 424 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,640 student journalism. I wanted to go to Afghanistan 425 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,600 because at that REF chapter at George Washington, we had a guy 426 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,520 from Soldier Fortune magazine come in, Jim Coyne, straight 427 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,400 from Afghanistan. And so so he said, you want to 428 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:35,720 do journalism? He said, come on back to 429 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,600 Afghanistan with me. And that's a great idea. 430 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,520 But at the same time, I was working now at the College 431 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,720 Republican National Committee. I was with the Young Americans 432 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,280 for Freedom national office, so I was doing President Reagan's 433 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,960 national security portfolio for both youth groups. 434 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,000 So who's at the White House? Morton Blackwell. 435 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:54,880 Now he's with Conservative Outreach. 436 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,560 He was the guy I'd worked with when I was a Senate intern. 437 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,080 And then Faith Wittlesie, who was Reagan's ambassador to 438 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,720 Switzerland, who was also very youth politics oriented. 439 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,400 And she said to me, look, you speak Spanish. 440 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,160 You you go down to Central America, do your student 441 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,120 journalism down there. OK, great. 442 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:14,720 I want you to meet somebody. So. 443 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,200 So she introduced me to Reagan's, one of his Central 444 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,440 America guys on the National Security Council. 445 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,160 It's ACIA, man. Constantine Mengez, they called 446 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,360 him constant menace. Both his friends did for one 447 00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:26,920 reason and his enemies did for another. 448 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:29,840 Really great guy. And he said yeah, come on down, 449 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,160 I'll get you set up with the Contras in Nicaragua. 450 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,640 So these are the anti communist insurgents who were fighting the 451 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,120 Marxist regime in Nicaragua. Daniel Ortega even back then 452 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,600 fighting him and went down there on my first trip. 453 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,480 And then that started off my student journalism career. 454 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,920 But at the same time, Constantine, so this was the 455 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:54,320 invasion of Grenada in 1983. When Reagan went in, cleaned out 456 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,080 the communist government there, there'd been a coup. 457 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,600 They overthrew and assassinated the Marxist Prime Minister. 458 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,120 There were American Medical students on the island. 459 00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:05,720 So Reagan went in, took out the regime and came back with this 460 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:10,680 trove of secret communist documents and treaties. 461 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,560 And everything Reagan had been saying about the Soviets taking 462 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,480 over the hemisphere was proven true by these documents. 463 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,800 This is. Is that urgent fury? 464 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,640 Is that what I'm thinking? Operation Urgent Fury yeah, and 465 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,720 they so they so and and the documents were most of them in 466 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,000 English or or they were English versions of them captured 467 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:31,760 because it's an English speaking government. 468 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,560 So wow, here's something that Reagan CIA wanted to keep it all 469 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,040 secret. Of course, you know, what source 470 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,080 and what method are you protecting in that way? 471 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,960 But anyway, that was the idea. Michael Levine over at the 472 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,320 working with the White House and the State Department and and and 473 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,640 Constantine and others said, no, let's make it all public, which 474 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,720 they did. It was fantastic. 475 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,360 So Constantine said to me, hey, we're not we're not. 476 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,640 I want you to be on the on the watch for, for hard evidence of 477 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,760 Soviet military equipment, any documentation, any Soviet 478 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,880 involvement in Nicaragua and El Salvador. 479 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,360 And they were collecting it obviously from the Ciai didn't 480 00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:15,320 know what I was doing. He didn't tell me what he was 481 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,680 putting me up to do. But I guess I ended up working 482 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:22,760 to collect this kind of documentation and photographic 483 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,680 evidence and material evidence of Soviet military support for 484 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,800 the communists in the region and ended up being a back channel to 485 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:35,320 CIA Director Casey. But he, I was getting this 486 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,440 walking around money to do it. I didn't know where it was 487 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,480 coming from. It was this old guy who'd been 488 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,480 in the OSS who said, here, here's some walking around 489 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,400 money. He introduced me to, well, 490 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,200 years, 30 years later, I found out he came out of CIA Director 491 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,360 Casey's pocket and he was apparently funding a bunch of 492 00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:53,720 people like me out of his pocket so that he would never have to 493 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,240 report to Congress that he was spending this money because it 494 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,120 was his own private money. It wasn't appropriated money. 495 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:02,120 Hold on, you got to say that again. 496 00:23:02,360 --> 00:23:05,320 So the director of the CIA is taking money from his own 497 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,440 pocket, his personal cash, and he's he's laundering it through 498 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,840 former OSS guys that are retired that. 499 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,200 Are his old buddies from the OSS because Casey had been in the 500 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:15,080 OSS? Sure. 501 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,560 That are just in the world that are kind of operating and and 502 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,440 he's personally running what we would call a hip pocket source, 503 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,560 somebody who's not officially on the books and and they're just 504 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,120 sending you off on these like official cover or non official 505 00:23:28,120 --> 00:23:29,880 cover journalists and things, but you don't even know what 506 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,520 you're reporting. So, no, I had no idea. 507 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,360 And and it was so Constantine at the White House, he'd said to 508 00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:37,240 me, hey, I want you to meet my friend Jim. 509 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,160 I was OK. I didn't ask questions. 510 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:41,880 It's like a White House guy says, I need you to do 511 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:43,000 something. I said, OK, cool. 512 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,040 So Jim's this nice old guy and we had coffee or tea and, and 513 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,040 we, he's telling me, you know, some World War Two stories. 514 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,280 He'd been in the OSS. And I think, OK, well, it's 515 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,280 really cool to be talking to somebody who was, you know, 516 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,040 blowing up Nazis and everything and, and, and also thought the 517 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:00,440 Communists were bad at the same time. 518 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,480 But I really didn't know. And then one day he said to me, 519 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,600 this was late 83, and I was supposed to go out with the 520 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,120 Contras in January 84 for the first time. 521 00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:11,600 He said, you're a Catholic, aren't you? 522 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,480 I see I'm not a very good one. He says, well, look, go to the 523 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:20,960 Saturday vigil Mass at 5:00 at Saint Matthew's Cathedral and 524 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,640 sit in the back left set of the pews and just stay there until 525 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,760 someone talks to you. I know what this was. 526 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,000 Is this really such a dangerous trip that I've got to, you know, 527 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,040 yes, it would have been a good idea to be in in good standing 528 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,200 with the Lord, you know, before going on a trip like that. 529 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,200 But I really didn't know, but I thought, OK, I'll go. 530 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,360 So I went and and you know, during Mass, I see further up 531 00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:49,200 ahead this stupid guy and I said it looks like little Casey and 532 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:54,280 sure enough, it was him. So after Mass, he gets out and I 533 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:55,320 thought, oh, I'm going to talk to him. 534 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,400 I'd met him at CPAC and I just shook hands with him and that 535 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:00,040 was all. So. 536 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,520 So he had no, you know, there was no connection other than 537 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,280 that. And then this woman comes up to 538 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:08,680 me and said, are you water? I said, yeah. 539 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,720 She said stand here. OK. 540 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,240 And then who shuffles up the aisle to leave? 541 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,920 But Casey with his whole personal security detail that 542 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,920 just materialized from these plain clothes people in the in 543 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,400 the the the evil. And he shuffles over to me like, 544 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,440 Oh no, it's this. So really in a goofy stupid kid 545 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:27,840 ways. Oh, nice to meet you, Mr. 546 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:29,200 Director kind of thing. I didn't know. 547 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:34,280 And he said Capitanoke. And I said what? 548 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,320 Because he was famous for mumbling and said Capitanoke. 549 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,560 And he shuffled away And then a man with him said to me, Capitan 550 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,200 Luke, remember that name? And that was that. 551 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,000 And so I didn't know. OK, fine. 552 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,080 It was weird. So then the next week I went out 553 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,360 with the Contras and I'm stuck at the airport in Tegucigalpa, 554 00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:59,960 Honduras with my friend and, and my I had hair then, you know, 555 00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:01,880 and I was skinny. So I looked kind of like one of 556 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,360 these communist Marxist kids who got out. 557 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,760 They were called Sandalistas to show solidarity with the with 558 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:13,800 the Cuban backed movements. And so and we're getting a hard 559 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,080 time getting through customs because we didn't know where we 560 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:17,640 were staying. We didn't have any local 561 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,480 contacts or anything. We couldn't answer any of the 562 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:20,680 questions. So I said full rank. 563 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,920 I said in Spanish, said I need to speak with Capitan Luke, 564 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,480 Captain Luke. And they looked around and went, 565 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,240 what's that? So this later on this big fat 566 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,080 officer comes out and I didn't recognize their Insignia. 567 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,040 And I said Capitan Luke. And he said, oh, Capitan Luke, 568 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,120 welcome, come on with me. And then he let us through. 569 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,400 Well, it was 30 years later, Bill Casey's son-in-law told me 570 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:52,960 that I was Capitan Luke. That was my crypt in him that 571 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,920 Bill Casey had given me in church. 572 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,160 And, and it didn't make any damn sense because he gave you no 573 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,480 context and you're out there. You just Forrest Gumped into it. 574 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,080 He just mumbled it and then another guy said remember that 575 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,600 name and I was OK. So when I said Capitan Luke, so 576 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,240 I, I didn't know for 30 years. So I was talking to Casey's 577 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,880 son-in-law who was president or chairman of the board of the 578 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,680 school, the grad school where I taught at the time, Institute of 579 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,200 World Politics. And he listened to the story and 580 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:18,920 he laughed. He says that was Bill. 581 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,560 He was giving you your cryptonym. 582 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,800 He said he always did that in church because he could never be 583 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,200 forced to testify in Congress what he had said to anybody in 584 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,640 church. So I didn't exist on any books. 585 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:33,920 So you're paid out of his pocket. 586 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,880 He's given you, he's given you a pseudonym to go work underneath. 587 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,720 And and this is your secret identity as you go down there 588 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,440 that you didn't even know is your secret identity 589 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,760 accidentally say that. So OK, So what do these guys do? 590 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,400 They they took you in. They said, oh, you're good to go 591 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,480 now you're Captain Luke. They just left and then they, 592 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:55,800 they, they, we had, you know, a twin cab pickup full of Contras 593 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,760 out there waiting for us and we just took off. 594 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:05,320 I had no idea. All right, so and, and your your 595 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,360 cover is essentially that you're doing photojournalism. 596 00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:09,240 Is that what they? Student journalism. 597 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:14,320 So the thing back then was to, to was for, for conservative 598 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,520 students to have their own newspapers, because most college 599 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,080 newspapers then, as now were lefty. 600 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,960 And, and so we set up our own 1. And unlike, say, the Dartmouth 601 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,720 Review, which Dinesh D'souza founded or, or, or, you know, 602 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,160 the more polite, that review wasn't erudite, but it was 603 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,520 sophisticated and it was clever and it was informative. 604 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,560 We were just out there to attack and to expose Marxists and 605 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,120 infiltrate Marxist groups for fun and disrupt them and expose 606 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,160 all their paperwork and their members and this kind of stuff. 607 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,240 I would call a shit disturber. You guys are just poking the 608 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,600 bear. Yeah, yeah. 609 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,760 And really, if if we had had social media, then we would have 610 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,640 been shit posters. I love it. 611 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,120 Yeah. So as opposed to the Dinesh was 612 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,960 the more sophisticated guy and his his people ended up going to 613 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:04,640 the Wall Street Journal and other places. 614 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,200 And my guys sort of just sort of dispersed. 615 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:09,800 Some of them actually went places. 616 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,640 But I don't want to expose them and discredit. 617 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,640 Don't. Expose anybody that's great. 618 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,120 So student journalism and and then are you trying to do 619 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,000 original reporting down there? Was that the goal, I mean? 620 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,640 Yeah, original reporting. And do what I was going to do 621 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,560 had I gone to Afghanistan. And this was when, when 622 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,680 Afghanistan was occupied by the Soviet Union, we were going out 623 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,440 with Ahmad Shah Masood's forces to who? 624 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,120 Who was always on the good guy side. 625 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,720 He was not a jihadist ever. He was. 626 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,440 He was assassinated by al Qaeda right before 911. 627 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,920 And then and then we went in. But he and I, I had met Masood 628 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,080 but not in Afghanistan, but never made it to Afghanistan 629 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,680 until much later. All right, so as Captain Luca, 630 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,200 you're doing your reporting, you come back to the United States. 631 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:56,720 Where are we going with this? Where does it keep going? 632 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,720 Oh, so then I started writing for for, you know, real 633 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,680 publications and then and then got involved with some, some 634 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,040 think tanks where I was pretty much free to do as I wanted. 635 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:10,440 It was. So it was a lot of fun and it 636 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:15,200 was stuff, again, mostly in the Western Hemisphere, any place 637 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:16,360 that was Resistance. Yeah. 638 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,480 All around Central America, Columbia got Chile. 639 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,440 This is what Pinochet was running Chile. 640 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,320 And it was, it was a really remarkable time to be a kid 641 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,440 then. But it was also at the time the 642 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,160 Soviet active measures were at their peak. 643 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,840 And Reagan was battling Soviet active measures and exposing 644 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,960 them in public really for practically the first time in a 645 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,240 systematic way. And so he had a whole apparatus 646 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,640 within the White House and the State Department and interagency 647 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,360 to be exposing Soviet covert influence campaigns against the 648 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,520 United States and against the West in general. 649 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,160 I got I was part of that because, lo and behold, through 650 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,600 College Republicans, the daughter of the House 651 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,360 Intelligence Committee staffer who was doing this, who then 652 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,920 went into the Reagan administration to run it, she 653 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,240 was working with me at College Republicans. 654 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,480 And then we became friends and she said, hey, you should meet 655 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,040 my dad. And then I got connected in with 656 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,840 this whole office to counter Soviet active measures. 657 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,400 And it was a great office because the guy running it heard 658 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,680 Romerstein himself had been a Communist Party member when he 659 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,920 was a kid in the 1950s, and he had defected in place to the 660 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:24,760 House Committee on Unamerican Activities. 661 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,120 Then he became a staffer there. So he was involved in the 662 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,520 breakup of the Communist Party USA, the breakup of the Ku Klux 663 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,320 Klan, a whole bunch of other, you know, anti subversive stuff. 664 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,520 And so he took me under his wing and then brought me into a whole 665 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,200 new universe of people. Let's talk about active measures 666 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,000 just a little bit for people's kind of background. 667 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,000 I know a lot of people probably heard the terms you kind of 668 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,760 touched on what it is, but can you talk about some of the, the 669 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,760 techniques that were being used and, you know, end goals and, 670 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,560 and, and who was implementing them at least in the United? 671 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,640 States sure well the the Soviet Communist Party so it wasn't the 672 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,440 Soviet government, but it was the ruling party itself that had 673 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,280 this apparatus for active measures. 674 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,800 So active measures is a Soviet term. 675 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,880 So it's an English translation, like the word disinformation is 676 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,680 an English translation of a K GB term disinformancia. 677 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,360 And active measures was was any it was a spectrum of covert 678 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:20,280 activities ranging from planting false stories as disinformation 679 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:26,480 to recruiting journalists or politicians or businessmen or 680 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:30,800 any influencers, all the way up to supporting insurgencies and 681 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,760 assassinations and terrorism. So it's that whole active 682 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,200 measures spectrum. And that was the Soviets most 683 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,680 effective weapon against us, put us on the strategic defensive 684 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,400 even before the nuclear age. But during the nuclear age, it 685 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,400 was really handy because the Soviets could fight us without 686 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,760 ever escalating up to a nuclear threshold of strategic nuclear 687 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,200 war. And how successful? 688 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,800 What's the crowning kind of achievements of these active 689 00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,720 measures, if we can pin them down? 690 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:05,640 On some specific ones, shutting down the American nuclear power 691 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,040 industry was one of them. So this is where it really when 692 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,280 I really learned this. Now I'm in my late teens, early 693 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,800 20s, learning about Soviet active measures and thinking, 694 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:21,880 wait a minute, I was a dupe in a Soviet active measures campaign 695 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,840 to shut down the American nuclear industry. 696 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,720 Interesting. Which was part of shutting down 697 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:35,240 the American strategic weapons production because the plutonium 698 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,560 being produced for our warheads was coming from the nuclear 699 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,640 waste of nuclear power plants. Interesting. 700 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,320 So when you realize, whoa, you were right in the middle of it, 701 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,720 you didn't even know. And then to see it now at the 702 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:49,640 national strategic level was astonishing. 703 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,520 So they they got us to shut down our nuclear power industry 704 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,560 effectively. They stopped, they got President 705 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,760 Carter to stop strategic modernization for the most part. 706 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,320 They got the United States to not deploy the enhanced 707 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:09,760 radiation warhead in Europe to defeat a Soviet armor attack on 708 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,320 NATO. A lot of a lot of nuclear 709 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,400 weapons production and modernization and arms control 710 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,679 issues were were exploited by Soviet active measures 711 00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:22,440 campaigns, and those campaigns succeeded as the Soviets were 712 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,920 modernizing. Their goal was to keep us from 713 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:26,880 modernizing, keep the Brits from modernizing. 714 00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:30,480 And there is. Reagan exposed a lot of that, 715 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,080 and he was able to force a lot through. 716 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,679 But they're, they're using basically Americans compassion 717 00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:38,000 and sensibilities towards their fellow man and sort of good 718 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:42,280 nature and kind of weaponizing it in order to sort of subvert 719 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,679 the ability of the of the national security apparatus to 720 00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:46,440 do the thing that it's supposed to do, which is allow people to 721 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,880 be compassionate but keep them safe 1st and. 722 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:50,600 Right. And there were people in the 723 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,440 national security apparatus who were wittingly or unwittingly 724 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,000 part of it. We don't have good laws to 725 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,560 defend ourselves from this. We've got the Foreign Agents 726 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,520 Registration Act, which is from the 1930s, and it's a slap on 727 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,240 the wrist and it's it's not that effective. 728 00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:08,240 But we don't have good counterintelligence laws. 729 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,600 We have counter espionage laws against spying, but we don't 730 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,760 have good counterintelligence laws against acting as an 731 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,360 intelligence operative for enemy power. 732 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,560 So they get away with it. Yeah, it's really worth pointing 733 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,960 that out to my to my audience because I think we I've talked 734 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,880 about this a little bit, but it's it's very strange to learn 735 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,040 that people are doing things that are against United States 736 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:31,760 interest. That would obviously be be 737 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:33,960 antithetical to the way that we would want them to behave, 738 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,680 whether they be government actors or non government actors. 739 00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:39,480 And yet they're not breaking any laws. 740 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,280 They're doing things that we would sort of all agree are not 741 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,480 good for America and they're not good for even themselves maybe. 742 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,520 And yet we can't stop them. That's sort of why freedom and 743 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,440 liberty is dangerous, I guess, is that we have a lot of open 744 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,720 door policies that you wouldn't have if we had an autocracy or 745 00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:59,280 if we had a a truly tyrannical police state, which we seem to 746 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,920 be trending towards. Yeah. 747 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,680 And some believe that having that type of police state is 748 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,560 really a good thing for America because it protects US against 749 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:13,480 these types of adversaries. So they want to have, you know, 750 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,480 the equivalent of Britain's Official Secrets Act. 751 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,160 Oh, well, Britain's a democracy. Well, it's not a Republic. 752 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,920 It has, it has a chief of state and commander in chief who is 753 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,800 ordained by God to be in that position. 754 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,600 Really, really, we really believe that, you know, it's 755 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,960 nice and quaint in in an American point of view, but it's 756 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,200 very important in a British point of view to have a 757 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:35,800 monarchy. But it's not the same thing. 758 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,360 And that same person is Canada's commander in chief and 759 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:54,600 Australia's commander in And so when we import ideas and 760 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:59,160 systems from countries that don't have our fundamental 761 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,960 founding principles, that becomes a danger to us. 762 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:05,960 You know, we keep, we keep coming back to this like 763 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,120 democracy versus Republic thing. And and for whatever reason, the 764 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,800 political left continues to push the idea of democracy. 765 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,600 Do you have a do you have an instinct on what that end goal 766 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,160 looks like? Why that that terminology push 767 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:21,120 continues to happen? Well, as as our founders knew, 768 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,840 if you have pure democracy, you will have tyranny. 769 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,960 You'll have mob rule and mob rule through elites who are 770 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,880 ensconced, and then they're able to mobilize the mobs. 771 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,280 That's if you have pure democracy. 772 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,760 So if you have a Republic that is democratically elected, then 773 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,640 you have these checks and balances in a federal system. 774 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,160 So now it's a Federal Republic. So you can't have a centralized 775 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:50,920 elite take over ideally, yeah. You can't have a powerful 776 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,040 centralized government with few checks and balances, ideally. 777 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,040 And you have the individual states having a lot of power 778 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:01,280 ideally. OK, I'm, I'm putting something 779 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,320 together in my head here. You talked about Russians using 780 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,680 some of our compassion against the nuclear program keeps us 781 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:06,960 from doing the things that are best for US. 782 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,000 One of the things that I always here argued against the 783 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,080 institutions that exist in the American Republic, the way that 784 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,280 our constitutional Republic is structured, things like the 785 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,160 Electoral College, the argument is that it's elitist. 786 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,360 It's old fashioned and elitist. And the thing what you just said 787 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,160 a second ago was that when you have mob rule, true democracy 788 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,360 50% + 1, the elites can actually run that much more effectively 789 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,200 because they can run the mobs. So they're, they're selling this 790 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:36,560 agenda of democratic type rule. And yet you're saying that it's 791 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:38,520 in fact the opposite. The arguments are almost turned 792 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,160 on their head. It's kind of an interesting 793 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,400 little subversion. Yeah, And you, this is entirely 794 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,240 consistent with the ideology of somebody like Barack Obama, 795 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:51,720 where if you have that 50% + 1, that's considered a mandate for 796 00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:56,280 you to do as you want. So when he was elected, he came 797 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,560 in with all these executive orders to fundamentally 798 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,240 transform our entire government and our society overall. 799 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,120 He had these executive orders prewritten. 800 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,200 So executive orders are legal, they're constitutional. 801 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,840 They're the president's missives to different government agencies 802 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,920 or bureaucracies to do whatever, you know, the president deems 803 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,040 needs to be done. And a lot of these executive 804 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,440 orders remain in force from president to president. 805 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,920 And sometimes they're changed and sometimes they're kept 806 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,360 intact. So Obama came in with the whole 807 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,240 with these executive orders pre written because he had his very 808 00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:36,720 narrow mandate, you know what, a 1 1/2% popular vote majority, 809 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:38,680 but a very large electoral vote majority. 810 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,080 So the Electoral College was fine with him because it showed 811 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,400 a massive, massive mandate for what he was going to do in terms 812 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,880 of electoral votes. But in a pure democracy, he 813 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:50,680 would have had almost no mandate at all. 814 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:55,840 But this is consistent with the critical theorists and the the 815 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:01,320 the Marxist scholars like like Herbert Marcusa, who Obama was a 816 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:02,880 big fan of. Marcusa was a. 817 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,720 One of The Pioneers of critical theory, critical sex theory, 818 00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:10,120 critical legal theory, critical race theory and so forth, it's 819 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:15,240 permeated our society. Yeah, so his, his his doctrine. 820 00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:22,240 He had many doctrines, but one of repressive tolerance was to 821 00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:26,280 tolerate up to a certain point and then shut off your tolerance 822 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,960 and then have that 50% + 1 majority to impose your will as 823 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,360 a democratic mandate. What does that look like in 824 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,280 practice? The the tolerance to a certain 825 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:37,600 point? Can you give an example? 826 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,960 Free speech up to a certain point, and then it becomes 827 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,960 insensitive, then it becomes dangerous, then it becomes 828 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,040 terroristic, disruptive of society, hurtful. 829 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,840 So that's the move from political correctness, which I 830 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,400 remember when I was a kid being sort of the argument, to now 831 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,040 there's hate speech, and hate speech is not just immoral, it's 832 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,600 potentially illegal if we can make it so kind of thing. 833 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,720 Right, right. So you start, you start now. 834 00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:09,120 Now Google just the other day came out with a a policy on, on 835 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:11,560 insensitivity. They're going to have some sort 836 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,760 of insensitivity index in case that there's something, somebody 837 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,680 says something during a time of political or cultural or social 838 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,400 attention, they're going to shut things down. 839 00:41:21,720 --> 00:41:23,920 This was their big event release that they just did. 840 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,080 Yeah, it was called significant event or something to that 841 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:27,440 effect. I. 842 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:31,400 Remember seeing right, Yeah. So back in the in the say in the 843 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,120 Vietnam War period, in the in the 70s and the Cultural 844 00:41:35,240 --> 00:41:38,800 Revolution that was taking place in America, free speech was 845 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,160 taken to its extreme by the far left because it was to their 846 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,840 benefit at that time. They were there were words 847 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,320 people didn't say. There were, you know, you didn't 848 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,320 talk about sex or you didn't talk about, you know, bodily 849 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:53,920 functions or other things in public. 850 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,360 You didn't have, you know, George Carlin's famous words, 851 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,840 you know, could not be said on TV, but they really weren't 852 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,800 tolerated anywhere except among friends or certain types of 853 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,680 groups. So in the name of, of complete 854 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,320 freedom of speech, all those, all that social self-control 855 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,160 that we had as a civil society was thrown out the window. 856 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,320 And and then they issued their own types of censorship, like 857 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:20,560 hate speech, as you've just said, and. 858 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,560 What do you think that what do you think the motivating goal is 859 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:26,640 by by throwing those social norms out? 860 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,560 Well, it's part of it's part of what the, the, if you go look at 861 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,120 say, the Frankfurt School of Thought, which was created by 862 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:40,920 the Soviets aimed at Weimar Germany to tear apart Germany 863 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,440 after World War One, tear out the political center of the 864 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:47,000 country so that the communists would come in and take over the 865 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,440 institutions. It didn't work as Hitler beat 866 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,560 them to the punch. So what did they do? 867 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,200 They came here and they set up, they set up their doctrines here 868 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,440 at Columbia University and elsewhere at a teacher's college 869 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,520 to go populate the different schools, to teach the teachers 870 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,640 and indoctrinate them. And to tear us apart in society. 871 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:10,240 To take away our beliefs in family, our belief in church, 872 00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:13,600 our belief in God, our belief in society, our belief in American 873 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:17,840 founding principles, and just, you know, regular human decency, 874 00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:24,760 hard work from the character right, to tear it all apart and 875 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,680 make us relentlessly question everything we say and everything 876 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,080 we do. And then to start censoring 877 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:35,480 people who try to recover that, or to try to stop this 878 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,040 calculated destruction from taking place. 879 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:41,680 The first you, you've written several books, correct? 880 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:43,920 I know this is your first book we're talking about. 881 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,080 You wrote one about the KGB. Did you write some previous 882 00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:47,440 books as well that I'm I'm not aware of? 883 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:51,080 My doctoral dissertation was on the KGB and its successors under 884 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,680 Gorbachev and Yeltsin, and that was a really cool experience 885 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:57,000 because I got to go to Moscow during the Soviet collapse. 886 00:43:57,240 --> 00:44:00,200 Another Forrest Gump experience being Imagine being in the 887 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:04,560 Kremlin the day Boris Yeltsin secedes from the Soviet Union 888 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:06,800 and declares the Soviet Union is abolished. 889 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,560 It was just a neat thing there. So what do you do? 890 00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:12,840 So as a doctoral student, well, I came right back the next 891 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,160 month, and I started working with these activists and 892 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,680 journalists and others. They had sacked KGB offices and 893 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,120 were going through all these documents. 894 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,080 And by that time I'd studied a little Russian, but it wasn't 895 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,120 any good. And so they were just showing me 896 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:26,680 what was there. So I was bringing bags of 897 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:31,640 documents back to the US to be translated, and this was KGB 898 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,080 internal documents and internal party documents. 899 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,840 And one journalist I worked with got into Gorbachev's vault, 900 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,120 where all of the Soviet Communist Party leadership's 901 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,000 archives were, and she was there for days and days and days with 902 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,000 photocopiers and bags hauling out documents. 903 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:52,040 She wrote a whole book based on this and provided me a lot of 904 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,480 the materials herself. So this was a really neat time 905 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,960 to be there. But I got to meet the exact KGB 906 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,120 generals who were running Soviet active measures campaigns 907 00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:04,640 against the United States. And how open were they with you? 908 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,360 At that time they were remarkably open because, you 909 00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,920 know, in a weird sense, the KGB foreign intelligence officers 910 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:16,400 were among the most liberal in quotes in the Soviet Union 911 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,960 because they knew how messed up the USSR really was in relation 912 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,200 to the rest of the world. But they, they knew the truth 913 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,720 and they thought, if we can save the Soviet system, let's do it 914 00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:29,800 through glasnost and perestroika with Gorbachev and let's have 915 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:33,120 some sort of, of, of relations with the West. 916 00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,560 But by this time, they didn't know what was happening and what 917 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:38,240 their future would be. So there were a series of 918 00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:44,760 conferences in Moscow that, that were run by former Soviet human 919 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:46,920 rights activists and journalists and others. 920 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,640 And so, and they would have these KGB officers come in with 921 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:56,240 victims and they would talk and, and it was sort of like a, like 922 00:45:56,240 --> 00:45:59,680 a big a, a meeting almost. It was a really cool time to be 923 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:00,760 there. People airing grievances. 924 00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:02,680 People were explaining what had happened and you know, this is 925 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:03,920 what you were a victim of, kind of deal. 926 00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:05,080 Is that what we're kind of hearing? 927 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,120 Yeah, yeah. And it was inconsistent. 928 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:12,080 So some were some of the the KGB people were very defensive or 929 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,360 defiant about what they did. But there were others who, who, 930 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,240 who if they knew that you weren't a dupe and that you kind 931 00:46:20,240 --> 00:46:23,280 of knew what you were talking about, they would you could have 932 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:25,640 a good conversation with them and come to an understanding. 933 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:29,440 Some of them because they still have the Russia post Soviet 934 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,520 Russia kept the old Soviet secrecy laws. 935 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,080 Got it. And, and some of these guys, 936 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,280 these cage even were angling for partnerships with Western 937 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,760 companies and economic opportunities because they were 938 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,880 still just getting their Soviet salaries and rubles at the time. 939 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,600 So at the time you could you could buy whatever you wanted 940 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,400 to. Interesting also and. 941 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:50,200 Then figure out what was true in the Yeah. 942 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,000 Sure. It sounds like though, what 943 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:53,840 you're saying is that the the the people that were most 944 00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:56,160 educated upon what was happening in the West, that were doing the 945 00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,120 active measures that were working against the West also 946 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,520 were getting radicalized in their own right based on how 947 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:04,480 much better the West was and what they were trying to defeat 948 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,640 actually looked like a better outcome from what than what they 949 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:08,960 were living in. Yeah, yeah. 950 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:14,040 One of them was a very famous KGB general, Oleg Kalugin, who 951 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,720 lives in Maryland now. He, he did not defect to the 952 00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:19,920 United States, but he was, he was an advisor to Yeltsin. 953 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,200 He stood on the tank with Yeltsin in front of the Russian 954 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:26,520 parliament building in 1991. And then, and then he thought, 955 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:31,200 wait, no, this is Yeltsin's day. Everybody else off the tank and 956 00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,440 just have Yeltsin stand up there as the hero against the 957 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,560 communist machine. So it was General Kalugin who 958 00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,040 knew and who understood it. He knew all about activism. 959 00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:43,000 He ran tons of operations against the United States. 960 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:48,320 He even paid a very famous journalist who taught other 961 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,360 journalists to. He was the bagman, the KGB 962 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,840 bagman to pay this guy. Very interesting. 963 00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,240 So. So he, yeah, it's a very. 964 00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,240 And he'd been doing that since the 1950s. 965 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,840 So his knowledge of America was very, very intimate. 966 00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:05,880 Your, your new book is called Big Intel. 967 00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,240 It's talking about sort of the woke tip. 968 00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,320 You talked about executive orders and the missives and sort 969 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,000 of the, the agenda that Barack Obama came into the country 970 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:15,360 with. We're also seeing it kind of 971 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:16,920 tied in right now. I think the Twitter Files and 972 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,680 some of the other interesting sort of reveals of the, the, the 973 00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,200 private Intel industry, which seems to have an awful lot of 974 00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:25,920 folks from the government start, you know, either former 975 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,240 government or current government that are on a different salary. 976 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,800 Can we talk about the swing, the way that intelligence has moved? 977 00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:33,520 They were heroes. We talked about it. 978 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,240 And I think we've we sort of knew the American way of life 979 00:48:36,240 --> 00:48:38,040 was superior. Even the Soviets knew it. 980 00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:41,760 And then somehow they're the villain today. 981 00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:43,240 There's got to be some kind of a changeover. 982 00:48:43,240 --> 00:48:47,240 Where where did that happen? Well, they were always a villain 983 00:48:47,240 --> 00:48:49,240 to somebody. So it's a question of, you know, 984 00:48:49,240 --> 00:48:51,920 whose villain are they? So if you look at the, the start 985 00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:56,360 of the FBI and, and this even before he was in the FBI, this, 986 00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:02,520 this Edgar Hoover, this this young lawyer, he was in his 20s 987 00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:06,600 when he was running the Justice Department unit to round up 988 00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:08,960 communists and deport them to Russia. 989 00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:14,200 He, he, he had, he grew up on Capitol Hill. 990 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:15,680 He worked in the Library of Congress. 991 00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:19,880 That's how he knew how, you know, the early 20th century 992 00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,080 version of databases worked. That's how he knew how 993 00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,200 Washington worked. But his main job, and then when 994 00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,800 he took over the Bureau of Investigation, it wasn't as a 995 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:30,920 lawman to fight crime. It was to hunt down communists 996 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:36,200 and anarchists. And the, the law wasn't a really 997 00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,480 good tool for him. But he, he did what he could. 998 00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,240 He didn't have, he was winging it as he went along. 999 00:49:42,240 --> 00:49:45,320 And when you're in, when you're running the Bureau for almost 1000 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,240 half a century, you're going to make a ton of mistakes. 1001 00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:52,720 But when you think about the few laws that that that reigned in, 1002 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:56,120 who were and the immense power that he had, he was really 1003 00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,560 restrained in comparison to today's FBI. 1004 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,800 That is, that is a profoundly, probably upsetting statement for 1005 00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,040 most people who are looking at today's FBI and thinking where 1006 00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:07,480 it is. And they go, well, think about 1007 00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:09,440 the big abuses. And we can go back to the Palmer 1008 00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:10,680 Raids. We can go back to McCarthy and 1009 00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:12,920 we can go back to all the different, you know, we had guys 1010 00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:14,680 that were in the civil rights movement trying to tell Martin 1011 00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:16,800 Luther King Junior that we've got stuff on you and you better 1012 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:18,560 do the right thing and kill yourself. 1013 00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:20,800 And we think, man, that's super abusive. 1014 00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,280 And, and the statement you just made is that they're way worse 1015 00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:25,880 today. And that Hoover was pretty 1016 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,320 restrained. Let's let's keep fleshing that 1017 00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:31,400 out because just let people kind of have that digested moment. 1018 00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:33,480 And, and it's intense. That's an intense claim. 1019 00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:34,920 And I don't think you're necessarily wrong. 1020 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,600 I think the powers just in and of themselves kind of tell us 1021 00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:40,120 that too. So some of it's technology. 1022 00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,680 Yeah, Can you imagine if Hoover had the technology that Chris 1023 00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:46,200 Ray has? Well, that's the thing we talk 1024 00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,440 about often times that people, you know, the Soviets too, if 1025 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:51,800 they had the ability to do what some of these data companies 1026 00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,320 could do, change things, manipulate people's perceptions 1027 00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:57,480 without them ever even knowing that they're being manipulated. 1028 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,320 You know, that's the Soviet wet dream is being able to send 1029 00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,800 information and and curate what it is true and what's false. 1030 00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:05,920 People, I think knew they were being lied to in the Soviet 1031 00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:07,440 Union, at least the people that were paying attention. 1032 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:08,640 That's sort of the instinct we have. 1033 00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:10,800 And that seems to be what you just said about the least the 1034 00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,800 KGB guys that were trying to do the those operations, They 1035 00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:14,440 weren't. Fooled. 1036 00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,000 Well, everybody in the Soviet Union knew they were being lied 1037 00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,320 to, and they would lie to each other and then they would know 1038 00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:20,720 how to read through the lies. Sure. 1039 00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:22,520 And I've talked to, so I talked to Matt Taibbi about this a 1040 00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:24,520 little bit. But on Dinesh's podcast and, and 1041 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:26,720 when we were talking about it, he said, yeah, there was sort of 1042 00:51:26,720 --> 00:51:29,560 this, this atmosphere of people saying words, but none of them 1043 00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:31,760 had any meaning because that's just the thing you did. 1044 00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,560 If you were silent in public, you looked ridiculous. 1045 00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:36,640 So you're just talking about inane. 1046 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,640 You're, you're tweeting. And we, we kind of saw this kind 1047 00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,240 of interesting little amusement of a it's like it's just birds 1048 00:51:42,240 --> 00:51:43,640 making noise. If the birds stop making noise, 1049 00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:45,640 that's usually when something really scary is about to happen. 1050 00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:47,960 And he said that was always the Soviet There was always people 1051 00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,400 talking, but nobody was saying anything because you didn't want 1052 00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:51,920 to. Yeah, that's a great way to put 1053 00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:52,520 it. Yeah. 1054 00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:54,600 You, you talk about your beet rations or something. 1055 00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:56,520 And and that would, that had special meaning. 1056 00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:58,600 It was called esoteric communication. 1057 00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:00,920 But it's funny you brought up Matt Taibbi, because I've never 1058 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:05,640 met him, but I followed him since I was in Moscow during the 1059 00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:07,480 Soviet collapse. He was with this sort of 1060 00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:11,040 counterculture or underground paper called the Exile. 1061 00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:14,040 And I really liked it. And I followed it because he was 1062 00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,600 just going after the KGB like crazy. 1063 00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,080 And there were very, very few American journalists who were 1064 00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:24,160 doing that. So I was not in the, I was doing 1065 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,040 academic work back then, but I, but I followed him and never got 1066 00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:28,720 to meet him. And then he resurfaced online 1067 00:52:28,720 --> 00:52:29,880 and I thought, wait, I've heard of this guy. 1068 00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,080 I've met him. And then boom, he comes out and 1069 00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:36,320 exposes with with Mike Shellenberger that the the 1070 00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:40,480 Twitter Files and and so he has just stuck with his principles 1071 00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,840 on going after big government, just from a very different 1072 00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:45,160 perspective. Yeah, I mean, he's an 1073 00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,000 interesting guy because I think he's more like the classical 1074 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:48,800 liberal left. We don't agree on probably 1075 00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:49,920 everything. I don't know what we don't 1076 00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,040 disagree on though. Like we haven't really kind of 1077 00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:53,840 compared notes and saying, oh, this is where I think you're 1078 00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:55,920 wrong. But he's he's kind of like a 1079 00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,800 he's an athlete and he comes from an American position of, of 1080 00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:01,720 liking what this country is about. 1081 00:53:01,720 --> 00:53:04,040 And the disagreement is like, how do you make it better? 1082 00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:06,520 I think that used to be the old left versus right, at least when 1083 00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:08,080 I was a kid. That's what people were trying 1084 00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:09,680 to figure out. Like how, OK, we kind of agree 1085 00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:11,840 that America is a great place, but we want to make it better 1086 00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:14,240 and it different parties were abusing it. 1087 00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,280 But that's not what's going on right now. 1088 00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:18,440 That's not what we're seeing in this country. 1089 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:20,200 We haven't even agreed on the moral basis. 1090 00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,000 And it sounds like some of that was actually subverted through 1091 00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,800 Soviet techniques and Frankfurt School and so on. 1092 00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,360 And then it made its way into the Intel community, which is 1093 00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:33,320 really from hunting commies to basically hunting people that 1094 00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:36,280 disagree with commies. We've done a a whole flip. 1095 00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:39,200 There had to have been some kind of major infiltration. 1096 00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,040 Do you have a sense of what it looked like to to make that 1097 00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,080 happen? Well, there was but, but when 1098 00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,760 you think of it, American counterintelligence was never 1099 00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,800 very good. They'll be very sad to hear you 1100 00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:50,200 say that, but I'm I'm OK with that. 1101 00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,960 It's terrible. I mean, there was only one. 1102 00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:57,400 So, so I had the sort of the, I was the only, you know, person 1103 00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:01,800 to be in KGB headquarters after the Soviet collapse at Lubyanka. 1104 00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,840 And then going around just with ransacked documents and talking 1105 00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:09,800 one-on-one with all these people who were involved both inside 1106 00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,280 and outside the KGB and in the party and then victims and 1107 00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:17,480 everything else. And only one person from the FBI 1108 00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:22,000 wanted to know more. And he took me out. 1109 00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:25,480 We became friendly. He was kind of a strange guy. 1110 00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:27,920 So we weren't pals, but I went to his house a bunch of times. 1111 00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:29,960 His wife cooked me dinner. I got to know him pretty well. 1112 00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:34,360 And he wanted to know everything he possibly could. 1113 00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:38,680 And then one day he was arrested. 1114 00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:45,200 It was Robert Hanson. So Robert Hanson was the only 1115 00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:48,840 FBI person interested in in the my findings on the KGB. 1116 00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:54,680 And then another time I got some material on in Arabic, and I 1117 00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:56,640 knew it was some extremist stuff, but I couldn't read 1118 00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:58,000 Arabic. I didn't know, but I knew the 1119 00:54:58,000 --> 00:54:59,800 source. So I gave it to a friend of mine 1120 00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:03,680 whose wife was an FBI agent who was born in Lebanon and she 1121 00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,200 spoke native Arabic. And I was with him when he gave 1122 00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:08,600 it to her and she just kind of dismissed it. 1123 00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:11,600 And I thought that's really unprofessional for an FBI agent 1124 00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:14,440 to just dismiss, be so dismissive of something and not 1125 00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:18,760 even ask where it came from or not we want to know more or 1126 00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:22,400 anything. So, so I, I mentioned her to, 1127 00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:27,360 to, to the FBI, said, hey, there's a problem. 1128 00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:28,720 You got a professional issue here. 1129 00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:32,320 Well, turned out she was an alleged spy for Hezbollah and I 1130 00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:38,640 reported her to Hanson. So I've, I've, I've seen some of 1131 00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:40,920 these little snippets as I was scrolling through your book. 1132 00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,600 I, I, I didn't get to like sit down and and page through 1133 00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:45,680 everything one at a time. I did a lot of kind of like 1134 00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:49,040 touching the waypoints on which is that's the only way that you 1135 00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:50,720 can see this, that I knew that was the setup. 1136 00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:52,520 So I had to cover my face because it's. 1137 00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,720 No. That the the guy who was 1138 00:55:58,720 --> 00:56:01,480 interested in the KGB was the guy who was getting his paycheck 1139 00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:04,640 from the KGB. There's just, you can't make 1140 00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:07,120 this stuff up. And so the idea that the FBI has 1141 00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:09,120 always been kind of bad at it, like I said, it will hurt the 1142 00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:10,840 feelings of people that I worked with who thought they were 1143 00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:13,320 great. And there are, there are former 1144 00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:15,960 agents that worked in CI that would consider themselves, you 1145 00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:18,240 know, kind of spook like. And they didn't want to be 1146 00:56:18,240 --> 00:56:20,320 criminal investigators. They wanted to be Intel people. 1147 00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:22,760 But they're not trained. For it, and they don't have the 1148 00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:24,200 background in it. And even though they're getting 1149 00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:26,560 a little better about sending people to farm and and sending 1150 00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,320 people to Langley, it's just not the FBI. 1151 00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:32,000 It's not built for that because it's theoretically still has a 1152 00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:34,120 law enforcement. It's both a shackle and a 1153 00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:35,960 weapon. And I think we've seen it move 1154 00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:39,040 towards more of a weapon lately. Only because they're willing to 1155 00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:40,800 come after us internally. Yeah. 1156 00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:41,800 We're trying to deal with that now. 1157 00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,960 The comment I said before about the FBI being really poor about 1158 00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:47,240 counterintelligence, historically, it's not against 1159 00:56:47,240 --> 00:56:50,520 the FBI counterintelligence agents. 1160 00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:52,640 It's it's the way the FBI is set up. 1161 00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:55,680 Yep. It was never set up to be, to 1162 00:56:55,680 --> 00:57:00,280 run deep dive strategic offensive counterintelligence 1163 00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:04,360 operations to disrupt the adversaries foreign intelligence 1164 00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:07,240 services against us. We don't have a capability for 1165 00:57:07,240 --> 00:57:08,640 that. The CIA doesn't do it. 1166 00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:11,320 The FBI has. A counterintelligence entity 1167 00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:14,200 should do it. In fact, President George W Bush 1168 00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:19,640 tried when he set up the foreign counterintelligence executive it 1169 00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:21,400 it didn't. It didn't stay. 1170 00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:23,240 Why? Because they put FBI agents in 1171 00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:27,200 charge of it, right. Or just one more bureaucracy. 1172 00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:30,760 So, so it, it was, it was really sad. 1173 00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:32,960 So, yeah, you'll have, you'll have some good. 1174 00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:37,680 Most of the penetrations or most of the cases that we see that 1175 00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:41,280 that are made known to the public are not like really good 1176 00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:43,000 counterintelligence work being done. 1177 00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:47,240 I'm sure some is, Most of it is walk insurance or most of it is, 1178 00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:52,480 is provided by foreign countries that rely on that, that provide 1179 00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:54,200 this to us. So some of the best cases 1180 00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:58,280 against the Soviets and even against the Russians were walk 1181 00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:00,160 insurance. Yeah, you want. 1182 00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:02,680 To define what that is for folks who don't know what a walk in 1183 00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:05,040 is. So, so it's a, it's a, in this 1184 00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:07,520 case, it's a foreign intelligence officer or agent 1185 00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:11,880 who turns himself in to the FBI or wants some defects to the 1186 00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:14,080 United States and turn against the other side. 1187 00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:17,720 So there were some really vital ones, you know, KGB major 1188 00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:19,800 Stanislav Levchenko being one of them. 1189 00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:24,000 My former professor, Vladislav Bittman, who was with the 1190 00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:27,920 Czechoslovak Secret Service, who was the pioneer of, of teaching 1191 00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:30,960 the discipline of studying and countering disinformation in the 1192 00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:33,800 United States, which none of the so-called disinformation experts 1193 00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,000 you see have ever probably even heard of the guy, let alone 1194 00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:38,920 studied under him. He was a brilliant, wonderful 1195 00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:40,320 man. But these were walkins who 1196 00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:42,040 volunteered. So it wasn't like they were 1197 00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:47,800 being worked as an op by the FBI or the CIA to, to have them come 1198 00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:49,520 over. Some of that might have 1199 00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:53,600 happened, but basically it that's if. 1200 00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:54,880 If it has, it hasn't been public. 1201 00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:57,440 It seems that most of what the FBI has been able to do even 1202 00:58:57,440 --> 00:58:59,920 recently, we see them, they're basically like spamming and, and 1203 00:58:59,920 --> 00:59:03,360 giving people, you know, direct advertising on social media 1204 00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:04,960 saying, hey, like, go put something in Russia. 1205 00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:06,880 And there's a, there's a certain amount of money associated with 1206 00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:10,120 coming over here. But you know, the, the, the 1207 00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:12,200 words I remember someone saying is like, if anybody is willing 1208 00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:15,480 to step over from, from a Russian intelligence service, if 1209 00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:19,520 you're going to get, you know, people from the Gru or whatever, 1210 00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:21,440 they're going to come over. It's a 7 figure amount of money 1211 00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:23,400 that the United States government is willing to go. 1212 00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:25,360 And they're going to, because these people are going to have 1213 00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:27,080 to relocate their entire life and going to try to make it 1214 00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:29,480 worth their while. But that's not how you recruit 1215 00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:30,760 people. And the other big problem that 1216 00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:32,240 they have is if you're talking about people that are 1217 00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:35,560 essentially law enforcement officers that have this mandate 1218 00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:39,040 under their, their actual job code, the 1811 criminal 1219 00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:41,920 investigator and, and all the training at, at Quantico is 1220 00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:43,920 based on you're going to go find crimes and we're going to go 1221 00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:45,960 find out who did them. That's the theory of what the 1222 00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:47,760 FBI is, which goes back to that route. 1223 00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:50,240 They were going after commies, but probably ineffectively, even 1224 00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:51,480 if that's what he was interested in. 1225 00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:54,640 And they they basically got their funding and they got their 1226 00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:57,120 money and their and their ability to operate going after 1227 00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:00,920 Interstate crimes where there was a problem with local law 1228 01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:04,320 enforcement unable to proceed. Pursue people across 1229 01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:05,880 jurisdiction. I always tell people, if you 1230 01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:08,640 want to know why the FBI doesn't make any sense, because it's got 1231 01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:10,760 a mission set that has nothing to do with why it was created. 1232 01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:12,960 And you have this expectation they're going to go after Bonnie 1233 01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:14,280 and Clyde and the Dillinger Gang. 1234 01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:16,560 And so do people who join the FBI, it turns out. 1235 01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:18,120 And and then they're like, no, no, no, no. 1236 01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:20,600 You're going to be like looking for cyber actors from, you know, 1237 01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:23,280 North Korea and you're like, how do we do? 1238 01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:25,800 What laws do we have to affect? And they're like, oh, none, 1239 01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:27,600 none, none at all. You can't do it. 1240 01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:30,040 And. It's just this mission creep 1241 01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:33,000 where the FBI performs all these valuable functions that our 1242 01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:36,320 country needs, but how well is it doing it? 1243 01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:41,160 You get state police, local cops, They're doing a great job 1244 01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:43,880 busting people. The FBI comes in to help and 1245 01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,400 then delays everything for a long time and then gets all the 1246 01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:48,920 credit and then gets more money from Congress for the great job 1247 01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:50,560 it's doing. You're literally describing 1248 01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:52,840 Steve Friends talking points here, so I love that. 1249 01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:55,120 Let me let me tell you something that I thought when I was there 1250 01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:57,400 doing counterintelligence. You tell me how this analogy 1251 01:00:57,400 --> 01:00:59,000 works from a lot of time looking at this. 1252 01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:02,080 I forgot you were a counterintelligence, but I said 1253 01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:04,360 how bad it sucked. Well, it was, it's totally, it's 1254 01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:05,480 awful. It was one of the worst things 1255 01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:06,880 I've ever done in my professional career. 1256 01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:09,000 I spent two years basically hating what I was doing and 1257 01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:10,880 thinking, I, I remember having a discussion with my boss. 1258 01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:13,560 This is very candid. And I said, she goes, you know, 1259 01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:15,560 where do you think you're going to be in five years with this 1260 01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:18,040 agency, which they love to know, do you want to be a manager? 1261 01:01:18,040 --> 01:01:20,320 Can we groom you into this garbage, whatever else? 1262 01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:22,200 And she said, where are you going to be in five years? 1263 01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:23,840 Where do you see yourself and how you're going to get there? 1264 01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:28,440 And I said, well, it's January and if I'm still working the 1265 01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:31,720 squad by June, I'm not going to be working for the FBI anymore. 1266 01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:34,320 So that's where I see myself in the next 6 months. 1267 01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:37,280 I don't have five years of, of foresight because I can't even 1268 01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:39,800 do this for another six months. I've got to get out of here. 1269 01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:42,160 I can't do this work. And, and the, and the way that 1270 01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:44,280 I'd come up with it because I'm always looking for analogies. 1271 01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:48,840 The, the, let's say that the, the law enforcement apparatus is 1272 01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:51,680 a hammer, right? Bad guy pops up, smash it. 1273 01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:52,760 That's what we're, that's the job. 1274 01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:56,080 And counterintelligence is a much more sort of sophisticated 1275 01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:57,080 move. And so it's more like a 1276 01:01:57,080 --> 01:01:58,800 screwdriver. You know, you've got to 1277 01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:00,920 basically turn it, turn it, turn it, turn it, turn it, and 1278 01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:03,200 eventually you get home where it needs to be and it keeps two 1279 01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:06,480 things together. And the FBI, as it currently 1280 01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:09,720 stands, is a hammer with a screwdriver welded on top of it. 1281 01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:12,600 So it is the most awkward screwdriver to use because it's 1282 01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:14,480 got all the way to the weird, clunky law enforcement thing 1283 01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:16,200 behind it. And it's also kind of a crappy 1284 01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:18,520 law enforcement agency because as you try to swing it, you've 1285 01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:20,840 got this thing that's thrown off the balance and you can't get 1286 01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:22,760 too close to the wall because there's this thing sticking out 1287 01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:24,840 the end of it. So it's doing two things pretty 1288 01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:26,920 ineffectively because of the, you know, because it's trying to 1289 01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:29,480 do 2 missions with one tool. What do you think about that as 1290 01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:31,800 an analogy? Yeah, yeah. 1291 01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:35,440 It was set up as a well, have you seen the founding memo of 1292 01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:38,680 the FBI? No, I don't think it's like a 1293 01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:45,960 half page memo, which it's like a stream of consciousness from a 1294 01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:47,920 turn an attorney general named Bonaparte. 1295 01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:52,080 He was related to Napoleon and this was because you there were 1296 01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:54,800 of the anarchist violence and other things and it referred to 1297 01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:57,680 special agents. We need special agents for this 1298 01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:01,160 and that. So that is what the FBI 1299 01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:05,280 considers its founding document, meaning a memo, poorly written 1300 01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:07,400 memo from an attorney general from 19 O 8. 1301 01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:09,640 So the FBI wasn't even created by law. 1302 01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:11,680 There's no law establishing the FBI. 1303 01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:16,240 Now they've, they've been since moved underneath the DOJ, which 1304 01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:19,760 was done by some, some move that Congress I think signed off on. 1305 01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:21,920 So there's that. Yeah, well, it was part of the 1306 01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:24,560 DOJ from the beginning, but it had a different status within 1307 01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:27,680 the DOJ, but. What you're saying is that 1308 01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:30,080 basically the foundation of it is that under considered 1309 01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:32,360 executive order, Attorney general mandate? 1310 01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:36,040 What does that? Play a general memo and this is 1311 01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:38,480 this is the FBI on its own website describing its own 1312 01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:40,680 history, saying that this is our founding document. 1313 01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:43,400 Which is weird by the way, because if you've ever seen and 1314 01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:45,160 I've made this argument, I said if you ever find a woman who 1315 01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:46,840 lies to you about her birthday, what else was she lied to you 1316 01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:47,720 about? And her age? 1317 01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:51,520 The FBI lies about it's age to me because it became the FBI in 1318 01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:54,160 19341935. I can't remember where it 1319 01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:56,320 officially crosses over, but it was called the Bureau of 1320 01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:59,000 Investigation. The the Air Force used to be 1321 01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:02,240 called the Army Air Corps. They don't claim the birthday is 1322 01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:03,840 when the Army created the Army Air Corps. 1323 01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:06,680 They became the when they became ADOD entity underneath the 1324 01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:08,640 United States Air Force. That's their birthday. 1325 01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:11,320 It's 1947. I should I should remember that 1326 01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:12,800 better. But I think it's in September of 1327 01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:15,280 47. But that's their birthday. 1328 01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:17,720 That's the real birthday. The FBI really started in 1935, 1329 01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:19,360 but they claim a different birthday because it's I don't 1330 01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:21,360 know, is it sexier? They got more time on the on the 1331 01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:23,960 earth, but. It's well, this is they're, 1332 01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:28,200 they're, they are so they hate J Edgar Hoover, right? 1333 01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:29,840 I mean, they're really embarrassed about him. 1334 01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:31,760 They want to take his name off headquarters, but. 1335 01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:35,280 Well, there's hey guys, I, I literally, this is very just 1336 01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:37,800 personal and funny. I, I went to a, a retired agent 1337 01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:40,600 and I'm, and he's working in law enforcement now with a bunch of 1338 01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:42,160 real cops, you know, doing real cop work stuff. 1339 01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:44,920 He's a sheriff and he may even see this, which will be funny. 1340 01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:47,240 He's got a picture of Hoover on his wall. 1341 01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:50,960 And I, I, I'm interviewing with his guys and I'm chatting with 1342 01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:52,320 him. And I said, isn't it funny that 1343 01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:54,240 he's got a picture of that famous tranny up on his wall? 1344 01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:55,320 And they said, what are you talking about? 1345 01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:59,040 And, and they said who who I said Hoover, I said Hoover was 1346 01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:01,200 famous for cross dressing and bunch of, you know, sort of 1347 01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:05,240 alternative sexuality. And they said, is that real? 1348 01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:08,240 And go, Oh yeah, it's real. So they they they were, they 1349 01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:10,440 were loving it because they they wanted to make fun of him for 1350 01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:12,400 being a Bureau guy, because local law enforcement always 1351 01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:13,880 guns to give the Bureau a little bit of a hard time. 1352 01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:15,880 That's sort of natural rivalry state and fed. 1353 01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:17,920 So they go in and they go, what's up with that tranny you 1354 01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:20,720 got on the wall there, man? And he's like, oh, it's, you 1355 01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:25,800 know, unconfirmed rumors. The OG guys love the Hoover era 1356 01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:27,600 because they were taught by the Hoover guys. 1357 01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:30,240 But at some point in the last 20 years, yes, I agree with you. 1358 01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:32,120 Now they've kind of, they want to divorce themselves from it, 1359 01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:35,160 even though he was kind of like the original, you know, he was 1360 01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:39,440 the original alternative guy in government who wanted. 1361 01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:43,920 The he was the G man, you know, he was the always gets his man. 1362 01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:46,960 He was upright. And really he was the most, one 1363 01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:49,800 of the most popular figures in America for years, one of the 1364 01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:51,800 most trusted figures in America for years. 1365 01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:55,360 So even up until the late 60s, just just before he died in the 1366 01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:58,440 early 70s, he still had the support of 2/3 of the 1367 01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:02,080 population. Selling your own legend? 1368 01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:03,920 Try to. Yeah, exactly. 1369 01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:08,200 So So the whole legend of the FBI being born in 19 O 8, it's 1370 01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:12,640 just a modern day continuation of Hoover's fiction. 1371 01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:16,480 And even Hoover took over the Bureau of Investigation but 1372 01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:19,520 still wasn't Federal Bureau until you said FDR brought it in 1373 01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:23,720 sometime in the 30s. And, and you think that even in 1374 01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:26,040 all that gangsterism, which is kind of the way you have to look 1375 01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:29,000 at it, the way that he had files on people, the way that he used 1376 01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:31,120 the authorities and he was stretching what he was allowed 1377 01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:33,120 to do versus what he was legally, you know, supposed to 1378 01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:35,480 be doing, even that was constrained. 1379 01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:38,440 I think that, like I said, that nugget is going to bother me now 1380 01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:41,000 that it was constrained compared to what's going on today. 1381 01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:46,040 Yeah, so, so think of, you know, the Banona intercepts. 1382 01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:50,160 This was the Army Signal Corps had had broken the Soviet code 1383 01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:52,680 during World War 2. And so while we were focused on 1384 01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:55,800 fighting the Nazis, the Army Signal Corps was revealing, hey, 1385 01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:58,720 the Soviets are doing this nasty stuff to us because they have an 1386 01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:02,040 end state after World War 2 or after the war, as they called 1387 01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:04,720 it, that goes beyond just defeating the Nazis. 1388 01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:06,920 They're coming after us. And so they were able to. 1389 01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:10,680 This was a foreign intelligence mission to break the Soviet 1390 01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:13,720 code. But Hoover knew about parts of 1391 01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:16,360 it. OK, but he could never use what 1392 01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:19,160 those intercepts said about Americans working for the 1393 01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:22,200 Soviets, had their names, their positions within various parts 1394 01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:23,560 of the government and wherever else. 1395 01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:30,280 This was sort of like a earlier day version of NSA monitoring 1396 01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:32,640 and and FISA 7O2 and all of that. 1397 01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:37,680 But there was no law preventing Hoover from exploiting that 1398 01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:39,680 intelligence. He just didn't exploit that 1399 01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:43,240 intelligence. He never even told the president 1400 01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:45,800 about it because he knew the President Roosevelt was 1401 01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:50,280 surrounded by Soviet agents, the code to the Soviet agents. 1402 01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:54,680 Why do why do we think he didn't use that in a a weaponized way 1403 01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:57,200 or or go after some of these folks like what was the the 1404 01:07:57,200 --> 01:08:01,200 restraining principle? So Hoover got, Hoover was was 1405 01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:05,720 generally lean Republican, but he would work for whatever 1406 01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:09,400 president wanted him to. So he did spy work for President 1407 01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:11,840 Warren Harding to spy on political opponents. 1408 01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:16,760 He did spy work for FDR to spy on political opponents and even 1409 01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:21,600 political allies. And he he even monitored Eleanor 1410 01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:23,080 Roosevelt's appointment secretary. 1411 01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:25,880 And when she found out, she got really angry and she said the 1412 01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:29,000 FBI is a Gestapo. Interesting. 1413 01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:34,319 And, and Truman, he Truman and Eisenhower didn't make any 1414 01:08:34,319 --> 01:08:37,200 political abuse of the FBI. And they didn't like they, they 1415 01:08:37,359 --> 01:08:39,680 Hoover was not part of their inner circle, but they kept him 1416 01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:42,319 on. The Kennedys used him a lot. 1417 01:08:42,319 --> 01:08:45,240 They hated him and he hated them, but they used him a lot 1418 01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:50,840 for their spying on mainly Communists in the civil rights 1419 01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:52,920 movement. And so it was Bobby Kennedy, 1420 01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:56,279 attorney general, who instructed Hoover to wiretap Martin Luther 1421 01:08:56,279 --> 01:08:58,520 King. It wasn't Hoover just getting 1422 01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:01,080 his jollies by listening to dirty conversations. 1423 01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:07,040 It was it was a direct missive from Attorney General Kennedy to 1424 01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:09,000 Hoover. And Hoover thought at the time, 1425 01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:14,439 I don't want to do this because this will destroy the FBI if 1426 01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:16,760 we're caught spying on the civil rights movement. 1427 01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:19,520 So he did it. He had to do it anyway. 1428 01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:22,319 So at that time. The FBI was doing a lot of this 1429 01:09:22,319 --> 01:09:24,840 sort of like anti KKK stuff. They were trying to expand 1430 01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:26,880 influence and trying to show that they were the good guys. 1431 01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:28,600 I think that's kind of concurrent. 1432 01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:30,160 So that would that would make sense that it would look really 1433 01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:32,359 bad. Yeah, and there was trouble, 1434 01:09:32,359 --> 01:09:35,279 too, because the KKK wasn't violating federal laws at the 1435 01:09:35,279 --> 01:09:38,760 time, right? So it wasn't an FBI issue. 1436 01:09:39,399 --> 01:09:41,080 So. So to fault the FBI for not 1437 01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:43,120 going after the Klan, that was a state issue. 1438 01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:46,160 So it was President Johnson who finally said you've got to smash 1439 01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:48,680 him. He said I want you to infiltrate 1440 01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:51,880 the Klan like you infiltrated the Communist Party and Hoover 1441 01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:55,040 actually did and just destroyed it because you had a lot of 1442 01:09:55,280 --> 01:09:57,880 state and local law enforcement working with the clan in the 1443 01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:00,040 Deep South. What was the the authority set 1444 01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:01,040 that they were using? Did they have that? 1445 01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:03,400 Was the KKK act that they passed or was there something else that 1446 01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:05,240 had to like how did they justify it? 1447 01:10:06,280 --> 01:10:10,200 There were there were some laws then, but it was mostly LBJ 1448 01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:13,920 telling Hoover plus up the KKK. And then they did. 1449 01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:17,920 Yes, Sir. And that and did that start is 1450 01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:19,760 that Emmett Till era that I'm thinking of? 1451 01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:22,000 I'm trying to remember kind of what was happening concurrently 1452 01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:28,000 as far as big cases and. That was 6465 was that it was 1453 01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:31,160 early to mid 60s, obviously right after the Kennedy 1454 01:10:31,160 --> 01:10:33,360 assassination. But you had, you know, murder is 1455 01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:35,040 still not a federal crime, right? 1456 01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:39,800 KKK is lynching somebody. It's not a federal crime unless 1457 01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:42,840 it's it's over different states. But boy, you know, right, every 1458 01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:45,920 FBI agents need the cooperation of the state and local police 1459 01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:49,320 and the courts. And if you don't have that in 1460 01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:53,000 the Deep South at that time in many areas, then that's a big 1461 01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:54,280 problem. But Hoover went in and got the 1462 01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:57,280 job done. Now, sending New Yorkers down to 1463 01:10:57,280 --> 01:10:59,720 Mississippi, you know, they didn't quite fit in, but it was 1464 01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:03,120 still, it was still he, he did a good job at it. 1465 01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:05,920 They're still happy to do that. Oh yeah, yeah. 1466 01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:10,040 It's such a misfit sort of situation. 1467 01:11:10,400 --> 01:11:13,400 So he, my buddies and I always kind of wonders, like when did 1468 01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:16,280 the FBI kind of step it outside of its scope of operations and 1469 01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:19,080 start doing things that it doesn't really necessarily have 1470 01:11:19,080 --> 01:11:22,080 a legal mandate or it doesn't really have legal authorities to 1471 01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:23,160 do? And that was always the question 1472 01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:25,080 I always had. It's like, hey, go do this 1473 01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:26,760 thing. It's like, OK, well, what legal 1474 01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:29,160 authority do I have? That should be the whole concept 1475 01:11:29,160 --> 01:11:32,280 of a special agent is that you actually have a very, and I'll 1476 01:11:32,280 --> 01:11:34,240 say this again, because I think people may not know it. 1477 01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:37,360 A special agent is someone who is an agent of the government in 1478 01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:38,920 a very special instead of circumstances. 1479 01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:41,800 They are not broadly speaking, Joe Biden is an agent of the 1480 01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:43,800 government. An ambassador can be an agent of 1481 01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:45,600 the government. They have broad powers to make 1482 01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:48,280 deals and and enforce certain, you know, requirements. 1483 01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:49,840 But a special agent is a very narrow thing. 1484 01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:51,800 It's actually people think special agent makes you better. 1485 01:11:51,800 --> 01:11:53,120 It's like, no, it makes you more limited. 1486 01:11:53,160 --> 01:11:56,520 You only have these things, Title 18 and Title 21 that you 1487 01:11:56,520 --> 01:11:59,200 can go out and enforce. So it's very weird to think that 1488 01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:02,520 if they said go do this thing, go get the KKK and you don't 1489 01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:04,360 have the authority to do it. Like the people were like, got 1490 01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:05,160 it. Let's go, boss. 1491 01:12:05,720 --> 01:12:07,880 That's that loyalty to the Bureau culture that I guess is 1492 01:12:07,880 --> 01:12:09,680 probably one of the most dangerous thing that continues 1493 01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:12,480 to exist. Yeah, it's just, it's like a 1494 01:12:12,480 --> 01:12:15,520 fraternity, right? Where you, you, the fraternity 1495 01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:18,760 can do no wrong even when you know it's doing really wrong. 1496 01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:21,480 And so you still defend the fraternity because it's a 1497 01:12:21,480 --> 01:12:23,000 fraternity. But this is not. 1498 01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:29,200 We can't look at at the FBI as a frat, although maybe we should. 1499 01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:32,960 Now it's a frat that's I. Won't allow us to now, I don't 1500 01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:35,720 know. We'll ask Sarah at the DC field 1501 01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:37,160 office when she thinks about frats. 1502 01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:41,400 But anyway, so that's you got, you've got a, if you have 1503 01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:45,520 loyalty to a brand, regardless of the quality of the brand, 1504 01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,160 then you're doing a disservice to everybody that you're 1505 01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:53,240 advocating to. You don't have the FBI agents 1506 01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:55,600 Association saying, hey, the bureau's hurting. 1507 01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:59,080 It's got bad leadership. It has weak leadership. 1508 01:12:59,080 --> 01:13:01,680 It has too much leadership. It's too centralized. 1509 01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:05,680 It's got mission creep. It's lost public support. 1510 01:13:06,160 --> 01:13:10,120 We need to do something to help fix this. 1511 01:13:10,120 --> 01:13:13,440 You don't see them doing that. No, you see them giving gift 1512 01:13:13,440 --> 01:13:15,240 cards to people that took a knee for BLM, Yeah. 1513 01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:20,760 Yeah, so so it's not even like the former agents or explore 1514 01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:23,280 special agents or or management or anybody else or even 1515 01:13:23,280 --> 01:13:26,760 advocates for making the FBI really serve the public. 1516 01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:30,240 When you talk about special agents in Hoover's time, you had 1517 01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:34,520 the FBI had its narrow role. It was to fight anarchists and 1518 01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:37,480 communists and and certain Interstate crimes. 1519 01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:42,680 Then you had the gangsters and the multi State Bank robbers. 1520 01:13:44,120 --> 01:13:46,200 But it didn't enforce prohibition laws during 1521 01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:49,840 prohibition that there was a prohibition Bureau with special 1522 01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:51,480 agents for enforcing prohibition. 1523 01:13:52,720 --> 01:13:56,440 It didn't enforce alcohol, tobacco and firearms because you 1524 01:13:56,440 --> 01:13:58,600 had and have a separate Bureau for that. 1525 01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:03,280 But you don't hear many people saying ATF is a sacred agency. 1526 01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:05,400 We have to keep it. We can't change it or fix it in 1527 01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:07,480 any way, right? Because it's, it's OK to say 1528 01:14:07,480 --> 01:14:11,840 abolish ATF because it's abusing Second Amendment rights serially 1529 01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:13,960 and, and you don't. And a lot of the laws are 1530 01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:15,800 obsolete from the prohibition era still. 1531 01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:18,840 So, so a lot of the mandate for ATF is not there. 1532 01:14:19,120 --> 01:14:23,440 But as long as ATF exists, why has the FBI usurped certain ATF 1533 01:14:23,440 --> 01:14:26,760 functions that already by statute are being handled by 1534 01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:29,200 ATF? So let's just peel that away and 1535 01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:34,640 let ATF handle that, take it out of the Bureau and then put ATF 1536 01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:37,360 in its box and deal with it as it needs to be dealt with later 1537 01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:38,480 on. Yeah, thrown in the ocean and 1538 01:14:38,480 --> 01:14:42,040 never recovered. It's, it's so interesting 1539 01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:44,000 because so much of this historical context, I think is 1540 01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:46,360 what's lacking from this is one of the biggest things about 1541 01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:48,240 America's that don't know anything about their history. 1542 01:14:48,240 --> 01:14:50,040 They don't know anything about the concepts of where things 1543 01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:52,640 came from and why they're there. And then they're easily 1544 01:14:52,640 --> 01:14:56,000 steamrolled by stupid arguments. You know, ATF when it was 1545 01:14:56,080 --> 01:14:58,960 created and you just mentioned prohibition, so it's worth 1546 01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:00,360 talking about. We're talking about a 1547 01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:03,960 fundamentally a tax organization that joined DOJ in the 90s. 1548 01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:06,120 In my lifetime, it joined the, it's not like it's historically 1549 01:15:06,120 --> 01:15:07,280 been there. They didn't have a law 1550 01:15:07,280 --> 01:15:10,000 enforcement core mission. Their job was to take money from 1551 01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:12,560 things that were illegal or that were already legal but were 1552 01:15:12,680 --> 01:15:16,520 regulated under a certain way. And like, you know, and then tax 1553 01:15:16,520 --> 01:15:17,760 violators were what they went after. 1554 01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:20,240 And they turned that into this, like thing where they are 1555 01:15:20,240 --> 01:15:23,640 hunting down guys who have machine guns, which is also 1556 01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:26,760 relatively new to the American concern because people were 1557 01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:30,120 rolling around with those for many years and, you know, just 1558 01:15:30,120 --> 01:15:31,560 started. And the gangster era is why 1559 01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:34,240 those things got sort of regulated in kind of a way that 1560 01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:35,440 I think probably wouldn't pass today. 1561 01:15:35,440 --> 01:15:38,200 It wouldn't pass scrutiny today. I can't imagine the National 1562 01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:42,440 Firearms Act in 1934 getting through a Supreme Court review 1563 01:15:42,440 --> 01:15:45,400 if it wasn't already part of our history for the last whatever it 1564 01:15:45,400 --> 01:15:47,960 is, 80 years, 90 years. Yes. 1565 01:15:48,040 --> 01:15:52,360 So it's institution, it's all like New Deal socialist 1566 01:15:52,760 --> 01:15:54,960 bureaucracies. And if you go back and study the 1567 01:15:54,960 --> 01:15:58,720 New Deal, who was the New Deal? The New Deal had these writers 1568 01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:02,480 programs for who? For Communist Party 1569 01:16:02,560 --> 01:16:06,360 propagandists who could not get real jobs, so they were working 1570 01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:10,320 on the off grants and salaries from the US taxpayer in the name 1571 01:16:10,320 --> 01:16:14,520 of economic recovery, writing their stuff and then recruiting 1572 01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:17,720 their cadres at our expense. So the Soviets then got their 1573 01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:20,440 assets on the ground here to be paid for by the American 1574 01:16:20,440 --> 01:16:22,720 taxpayer. It's brilliant with the stamp of 1575 01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:24,400 approval as government employees. 1576 01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:27,360 And, and the amount of damage that FDR has done, you know, 1577 01:16:27,480 --> 01:16:30,120 historically to this country and even, I think even Truman, some 1578 01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:32,280 of the stuff that got signed under Truman were, were fourth. 1579 01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:34,960 It was the fourth term. It's, it's the closest that we 1580 01:16:34,960 --> 01:16:38,040 ever had to like a, a complete takeover of our federal 1581 01:16:38,040 --> 01:16:40,760 government is the only guy that ever didn't do the 2 terms and 1582 01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:44,040 out right. And it's so interesting to me 1583 01:16:44,040 --> 01:16:46,600 that, that he's revered on the political left in so many ways. 1584 01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:48,920 And, and then you just look and you're like, you can pretty much 1585 01:16:48,920 --> 01:16:51,960 trace a lot of this stuff. That is the rot that has finally 1586 01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:54,800 come home to roost. It's finally metastasized to an 1587 01:16:54,800 --> 01:16:58,720 end state of, of a pretty obvious danger to the left and 1588 01:16:58,720 --> 01:16:59,960 the right, if they're being honest about it. 1589 01:16:59,960 --> 01:17:03,400 I can't, I don't think they are. But it, it actually, it's, it's 1590 01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:05,680 grown beyond those original boundaries of, of just being 1591 01:17:05,960 --> 01:17:08,000 ideologically driven. Now it's just progress. 1592 01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:11,240 And the progress is to its own detriment, it seems like. 1593 01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:14,920 Yeah. And, and what is progress? 1594 01:17:14,920 --> 01:17:18,280 What do they mean by it? If you look at at the term 1595 01:17:18,280 --> 01:17:20,840 progressive, there are lots of different histories of it. 1596 01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:24,760 But in the Marxist sense, you're always moving to progress. 1597 01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:28,560 What is that progress? Well, for his his part, it was 1598 01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:31,600 the dictatorship with his words of the proletariat, the 1599 01:17:31,600 --> 01:17:33,320 dictatorship of the working class. 1600 01:17:33,320 --> 01:17:36,960 So there any Marxist by definition is working toward a 1601 01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:39,800 dictatorship. So you have the economic 1602 01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:45,200 Marxists where the toiling masses of the proletariat defeat 1603 01:17:45,200 --> 01:17:47,880 the rich bourgeoisie. Well, now the rich bourgeoisie 1604 01:17:47,880 --> 01:17:50,720 are the Marxist leaders, so they've changed it to a cultural 1605 01:17:50,720 --> 01:17:52,880 approach. So instead of being an economic 1606 01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:55,960 battle between the haves and have nots, the victims and the 1607 01:17:55,960 --> 01:17:58,720 victimizers, it's a cultural battle. 1608 01:17:59,840 --> 01:18:03,360 And the cultural battle, now the proletariat is anyone who wants 1609 01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:05,920 to destroy American founding principles, anything with 1610 01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:08,080 Western. In the Western moral tradition, 1611 01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:11,800 it's them, because it's the dead white men who are the 1612 01:18:11,800 --> 01:18:13,520 oppressors, and they have to be destroyed. 1613 01:18:15,000 --> 01:18:17,040 Except for Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, who were dead 1614 01:18:17,040 --> 01:18:18,160 white. That's right. 1615 01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:19,400 Yeah. Well, if you can't have 1616 01:18:19,400 --> 01:18:22,080 inconsistencies and, and you know, what do you call it, 1617 01:18:22,240 --> 01:18:24,680 cognitive dissonance, then you can't be on the political left. 1618 01:18:24,680 --> 01:18:27,040 I don't think you have to tolerate a certain amount of 1619 01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:30,560 that headache every day. It let's talk about how it kind 1620 01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:32,360 of goes after the info. So you talked about communist 1621 01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:35,680 writers, you talked about new deals, sort of infiltrations 1622 01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:37,880 with that sort of thing where now the federal government is in 1623 01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:41,400 fact paying for its for people writing against its own 1624 01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:45,160 interests in theory. Or American people and even even 1625 01:18:45,160 --> 01:18:48,720 more than that, because if you you consider that that World War 1626 01:18:48,720 --> 01:18:51,400 2 is beginning, we're not involved in it yet. 1627 01:18:51,400 --> 01:18:55,480 This is 1940, nineteen, early 1941, and we don't have a 1628 01:18:55,480 --> 01:18:59,440 foreign intelligence service. We have naval intelligence. 1629 01:18:59,440 --> 01:19:02,640 We have army intelligence overall, but they're very 1630 01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:07,840 narrowly, narrowly defined. We don't have anything like 1631 01:19:07,840 --> 01:19:10,440 ACIA. So President Roosevelt says, you 1632 01:19:10,440 --> 01:19:14,120 know, after the British are leaning on us, we need to have a 1633 01:19:14,120 --> 01:19:16,800 Central Intelligence organization. 1634 01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:20,520 So this is where the Office of Strategic Services was set up as 1635 01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:23,080 a wartime foreign intelligence service. 1636 01:19:23,960 --> 01:19:26,920 Really neat story about the OSS and we've heard a lot about it 1637 01:19:26,920 --> 01:19:30,200 while Bill Donovan setting it up. 1638 01:19:30,360 --> 01:19:32,760 He was a really cool guy in history. 1639 01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:36,000 I mean, we need guys like him as long as they had a good 1640 01:19:36,000 --> 01:19:38,000 counterintelligence instinct, which he did not. 1641 01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:44,360 So Donovan set up the OSS with the single minded objective of 1642 01:19:44,360 --> 01:19:47,280 defeating the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese by Mussolini. 1643 01:19:49,760 --> 01:19:52,640 We never thought about what's the end state going to be after 1644 01:19:52,640 --> 01:19:54,400 the war. Nobody almost in the United 1645 01:19:54,400 --> 01:19:56,760 States was thinking what do we want the world to look like 1646 01:19:56,760 --> 01:20:01,120 after we win the war. Stalin had decided by 1943 I 1647 01:20:01,120 --> 01:20:04,960 want to spread communism to Europe and the Americas and have 1648 01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:07,320 communism to rule the world. We didn't have that kind of 1649 01:20:07,320 --> 01:20:08,720 view. So we just looked at Stalin as a 1650 01:20:08,720 --> 01:20:13,400 war time ally to fight Hitler. So when Donovan is recruiting 1651 01:20:13,400 --> 01:20:18,360 into the OSS, he is bringing in Americans or foreign nationals 1652 01:20:18,360 --> 01:20:20,880 who had been born Americans who'd been born abroad, or 1653 01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:24,240 foreign nationals bringing them into the OSS as analysts and 1654 01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:25,960 linguists and all the things that we lacked. 1655 01:20:25,960 --> 01:20:29,520 But he wasn't screening them to make sure they were not agents 1656 01:20:29,520 --> 01:20:33,360 of town. He said he was, but in fact, he 1657 01:20:33,360 --> 01:20:37,080 wasn't in the Venona. Transcripts proved this. 1658 01:20:37,120 --> 01:20:39,280 Hoover was aware of what much of what was happening. 1659 01:20:39,360 --> 01:20:43,040 Congress was aware of much of what was happening, but Donovan 1660 01:20:43,040 --> 01:20:47,400 actually lied about it. That allowed the Soviets to have 1661 01:20:47,400 --> 01:20:50,360 a wholesale penetration of the new US intelligence community, 1662 01:20:52,120 --> 01:20:55,160 and it became so contaminated that by the end of World War 2, 1663 01:20:56,080 --> 01:21:00,040 OSS was disbanded and we had no intelligence community at all. 1664 01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:04,080 But it got us to the point where among intelligence 1665 01:21:04,080 --> 01:21:07,320 professionals, there were no enemies on the left. 1666 01:21:08,120 --> 01:21:10,120 This is a gross over generalization, but I mean, 1667 01:21:10,120 --> 01:21:13,760 where you get this intelligence community sentiment that there 1668 01:21:13,760 --> 01:21:18,360 are no enemies on the left, even with an intelligence service 1669 01:21:18,360 --> 01:21:21,280 that was set up to battle the and that's so bizarre. 1670 01:21:21,960 --> 01:21:25,040 That's so and it was and it was populated by people. 1671 01:21:25,040 --> 01:21:27,880 I mean, it's a it's an over generalization because at first 1672 01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:32,800 they were doing a really good job, need operations. 1673 01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:35,560 I mean, Italy would have been a Italian Soviet Socialist 1674 01:21:35,560 --> 01:21:40,520 Republic had it not been for James Angleton and and the CIA 1675 01:21:41,280 --> 01:21:44,320 making sure that the Italy's 1948 elections didn't go to 1676 01:21:44,320 --> 01:21:47,160 Stalin because the Soviets were really active in that. 1677 01:21:47,160 --> 01:21:49,840 So there were a lot of the early CIA covert operations did a 1678 01:21:49,840 --> 01:21:52,440 great job to protect American interests and Western 1679 01:21:52,440 --> 01:21:55,480 civilization. Can you imagine if Italy was a 1680 01:21:55,480 --> 01:21:58,920 Soviet Warsaw Pact member about how that would have changed? 1681 01:21:58,920 --> 01:22:01,440 Well, to be married right now. Even though my wife grew up in 1682 01:22:01,480 --> 01:22:04,160 communist New York, she would have been probably a very 1683 01:22:04,160 --> 01:22:08,080 different version of that family came from from Italy and not not 1684 01:22:08,200 --> 01:22:11,880 to right in that era. Yeah, so, so there was some 1685 01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:15,560 really neat stuff going on by a lot of these early intelligence 1686 01:22:16,760 --> 01:22:20,760 professionals under under Allen Dulles running the CIA. 1687 01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:23,880 I have to imagine, and that's the thing about being in a, that 1688 01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:25,920 was a start up environment. So they didn't have rules, they 1689 01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:29,040 didn't have bureaucracy, they didn't have lots of oversight 1690 01:22:29,040 --> 01:22:30,400 that people even knew what the hell they were doing. 1691 01:22:30,400 --> 01:22:32,800 It was just like, hey, you, they're, they're paying people 1692 01:22:32,800 --> 01:22:35,800 out of their pocket to go and do stuff, which that kind of cowboy 1693 01:22:35,800 --> 01:22:38,560 culture, you kind of almost have to run Intel. 1694 01:22:38,560 --> 01:22:41,040 Like it's never going to be looked at. 1695 01:22:41,040 --> 01:22:42,760 Like no one's ever going to be able to look at what you're 1696 01:22:42,760 --> 01:22:44,880 doing again. If you're right, yeah. 1697 01:22:45,280 --> 01:22:49,120 And this was why the OSS was so successful in running commando 1698 01:22:49,120 --> 01:22:52,800 operations behind the line. So Bill Casey, Reagan's CIA 1699 01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:57,800 director, he was he was a finance lawyer in New York. 1700 01:22:57,800 --> 01:23:00,760 He invented the tax shelter to get around FD Rs, New Deal 1701 01:23:01,120 --> 01:23:04,160 taxation. And so he was recruited into the 1702 01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:08,520 Navy and then into the OSS. And he had this crazy idea of 1703 01:23:09,200 --> 01:23:12,640 when, when, when Eisenhower, you know, runs D-Day to invade 1704 01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:17,480 Normandy, how are we going to get the Allied troops from the 1705 01:23:17,480 --> 01:23:21,400 coast of France to Berlin? So he said, let's parachute in 1706 01:23:21,400 --> 01:23:27,600 behind Nazi lines and get native born Germans behind Nazi lines 1707 01:23:27,960 --> 01:23:31,280 to run operations to make it easier for our forces to get 1708 01:23:31,280 --> 01:23:33,080 through. And it was a crazy idea. 1709 01:23:33,240 --> 01:23:36,720 Everybody thought it was nuts. OSS chief Donovan loved it. 1710 01:23:36,720 --> 01:23:39,080 The British said it'll never work, but let's try it anyway. 1711 01:23:39,080 --> 01:23:43,720 Casey ran that whole operation. So this was just guys who pretty 1712 01:23:43,720 --> 01:23:46,760 much didn't know what they were doing or they they didn't know. 1713 01:23:47,480 --> 01:23:50,000 They had not been conditioned to think in a defeatist way that it 1714 01:23:50,000 --> 01:23:51,440 couldn't be done. Yeah. 1715 01:23:51,600 --> 01:23:54,720 Which will Colby with a guy like this, he became CIA director. 1716 01:23:55,160 --> 01:23:57,600 The thing is like that, that sort of mentality which still 1717 01:23:57,600 --> 01:24:00,200 exists in unconventional warfare, still exists in the the 1718 01:24:00,240 --> 01:24:02,120 special operations thing. We used to call it operating in 1719 01:24:02,120 --> 01:24:04,080 the Gray. When you talk about people, it's 1720 01:24:04,080 --> 01:24:06,000 like it's not right, it's not wrong. 1721 01:24:06,800 --> 01:24:08,320 If it works, it's still it's still good. 1722 01:24:08,320 --> 01:24:10,320 That's very operational morality type stuff. 1723 01:24:10,720 --> 01:24:13,400 It's a terrible way to run a society, it turns out. 1724 01:24:13,400 --> 01:24:15,120 And those people cannot be everywhere. 1725 01:24:15,120 --> 01:24:16,960 Because if everybody's operationally moral, then 1726 01:24:17,040 --> 01:24:20,000 everything decays. But having some Gray operators 1727 01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:21,840 in the world that are ready to go out there and just solve 1728 01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:25,840 problems, whatever the cost is it, it may end up being the the 1729 01:24:25,840 --> 01:24:28,480 only tool that you can use in somebody's very, you know, 1730 01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:31,040 especially if nobody's looking to the end state. 1731 01:24:31,040 --> 01:24:32,600 As you just mentioned. It just reminds me that we're 1732 01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:34,920 not looking at end states when we did a lot of our policy with 1733 01:24:34,920 --> 01:24:37,040 China, either the US is really good. 1734 01:24:37,040 --> 01:24:40,280 In fact, the CIA historically is pretty good at what's, what are 1735 01:24:40,280 --> 01:24:41,560 we trying to accomplish right now. 1736 01:24:41,560 --> 01:24:43,880 But they push into something and something else pops out and we 1737 01:24:43,880 --> 01:24:46,080 end up with either, you know, some other regime we're going to 1738 01:24:46,080 --> 01:24:48,480 fly in 10 years. That's, that's the entire story 1739 01:24:48,480 --> 01:24:51,840 of the American, the American intelligence services is we're 1740 01:24:51,840 --> 01:24:53,160 going to solve this problem right now. 1741 01:24:53,160 --> 01:24:55,360 And we have no idea what it's going to lead to and nobody is 1742 01:24:56,000 --> 01:24:59,320 leave it out. But they do a great job for the 1743 01:24:59,320 --> 01:25:02,240 duty that they have right in front of like right after 911. 1744 01:25:02,440 --> 01:25:04,560 It was a really similar thing where we didn't have, you know, 1745 01:25:04,560 --> 01:25:06,240 FBI was in no shape to deal with it. 1746 01:25:06,720 --> 01:25:08,640 And, and there was a debate in Washington. 1747 01:25:08,680 --> 01:25:12,280 Should the 9/11 attacks be considered a law enforcement 1748 01:25:12,280 --> 01:25:16,120 issue and not a military type attack? 1749 01:25:17,120 --> 01:25:19,720 So should we just have an investigation that arrests 1750 01:25:19,720 --> 01:25:22,360 terrorists around the world rather than go off and and do 1751 01:25:22,360 --> 01:25:25,080 what we ended up doing? So that was a great idea. 1752 01:25:25,080 --> 01:25:29,240 But then what happened? This supercharged FBI, this and, 1753 01:25:29,240 --> 01:25:33,240 and what's his name, the director, Then Mueller, he'd 1754 01:25:33,240 --> 01:25:36,040 only been on the job for a week, which people don't realize. 1755 01:25:36,040 --> 01:25:38,840 And worse, turns to him and says, why weren't you guys on 1756 01:25:38,840 --> 01:25:41,040 top of this? And he said, well, it wasn't I, 1757 01:25:41,120 --> 01:25:43,920 I really don't know. I said, I want to make sure this 1758 01:25:43,920 --> 01:25:45,600 never happens to another American again. 1759 01:25:45,600 --> 01:25:48,040 It's your responsibility. So that was Mueller's marching 1760 01:25:48,040 --> 01:25:49,880 order. So he then what did he do? 1761 01:25:50,280 --> 01:25:53,920 He did a great job of what the president wanted him to do was 1762 01:25:53,920 --> 01:25:58,280 to create this monstrous FBI and, and, and everything that 1763 01:25:58,280 --> 01:26:00,880 came out of it. And he was the second longest 1764 01:26:00,880 --> 01:26:04,920 serving director after Hoover. But then you had the Department 1765 01:26:04,920 --> 01:26:06,480 of Homeland Security come out of this. 1766 01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:09,960 You had the Office of the Director of National 1767 01:26:09,960 --> 01:26:14,360 Intelligence come out of this. So what Bush did was centralized 1768 01:26:14,360 --> 01:26:16,760 everything to prevent the stove piping of intelligence. 1769 01:26:17,760 --> 01:26:21,280 But in centralizing everything, he made it so that a few people 1770 01:26:21,280 --> 01:26:26,720 at the top could manipulate it. So when Obama takes office, he 1771 01:26:26,720 --> 01:26:31,000 likes what he sees with Mueller and his FBI and asks Congress to 1772 01:26:31,000 --> 01:26:35,560 extend Mueller's term beyond the 10 year mandatory limit. 1773 01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:41,880 He brings in people like General Clapper to run the 17 member 1774 01:26:42,080 --> 01:26:46,360 intelligence community. He brings in Brennan ideologues 1775 01:26:46,360 --> 01:26:50,320 like Brennan to run the CIA. Who did Brennan vote for? 1776 01:26:50,320 --> 01:26:55,000 Three years before he was recruited into the CIA, he voted 1777 01:26:55,000 --> 01:26:58,880 for Soviet asset Gus Hall as president of the United States. 1778 01:27:00,560 --> 01:27:03,120 Now, you can think, well, he had a stupid attack or whatever 1779 01:27:03,120 --> 01:27:06,560 else, but really only three-year maturation from that time until 1780 01:27:06,560 --> 01:27:09,360 the CIA brings him in. And then he writes in his memoir 1781 01:27:09,360 --> 01:27:12,840 that was just a lark. Rather than say, you know what, 1782 01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:14,880 I'm going to use this as a counterintelligence lesson. 1783 01:27:16,000 --> 01:27:18,200 This is how these guys work. This is how these guys fool 1784 01:27:18,200 --> 01:27:20,680 young voters. Nothing like that at all. 1785 01:27:20,680 --> 01:27:25,120 Instead, he went and put he and Clapper at Obama's orders. 1786 01:27:25,680 --> 01:27:27,400 But they didn't need to be ordered because they were fine 1787 01:27:27,400 --> 01:27:32,600 with it, imposed DEI and all the alphabet soup of rainbow ISM 1788 01:27:33,440 --> 01:27:35,920 into the entire intelligence community with a vengeance. 1789 01:27:35,920 --> 01:27:38,880 And they could do that because it was a few people at the top 1790 01:27:38,880 --> 01:27:43,160 of a very centralized system that had been designed never to 1791 01:27:43,160 --> 01:27:46,880 be centralized because that would endanger our Republic. 1792 01:27:46,920 --> 01:27:48,040 There's something really critical. 1793 01:27:48,320 --> 01:27:51,240 You talked about Mueller coming on and my buddy George Hill 1794 01:27:51,240 --> 01:27:54,120 talks about this as well, former NSA and military intelligence, 1795 01:27:54,120 --> 01:27:56,720 etcetera, and also FBI. And the thing that he says is 1796 01:27:56,720 --> 01:27:59,560 that literally the like September 12th, the mandate 1797 01:27:59,560 --> 01:28:02,320 comes down that no American will die again from terrorism on US 1798 01:28:02,320 --> 01:28:04,360 soil. And that is fundamentally A 1799 01:28:04,360 --> 01:28:09,520 tyrannical mindset because you can't have a 0 failed mission 1800 01:28:09,920 --> 01:28:12,560 without imposing tyranny. You can't do it. 1801 01:28:12,560 --> 01:28:14,760 There's no opportunity. And and when they did that, they 1802 01:28:14,760 --> 01:28:16,800 changed the definition of national security fundamentally 1803 01:28:17,040 --> 01:28:20,040 from what it was all the way from inception to date. 1804 01:28:20,520 --> 01:28:23,120 And that moment onward, it's like now you can't fail. 1805 01:28:23,560 --> 01:28:25,080 Tyranny's on the menu and it's required. 1806 01:28:25,080 --> 01:28:28,120 And as you just said, centralization allowed. 1807 01:28:28,200 --> 01:28:29,640 Everyone always thinks it's like, oh, if you could just 1808 01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:31,520 change the things at the top. No, the guys at the top made it 1809 01:28:31,520 --> 01:28:33,680 so the things at the bottom were also then corrupted. 1810 01:28:34,080 --> 01:28:36,040 And this problem that I think most people have a hard time 1811 01:28:36,040 --> 01:28:39,680 getting their head around, how do you fix it when the top is 1812 01:28:39,680 --> 01:28:41,440 corrupted? Everyone's sort of OK with the 1813 01:28:41,440 --> 01:28:43,880 idea that senior management and various different agencies are 1814 01:28:43,880 --> 01:28:47,600 problematic, but they've changed the culture and they've had 20 1815 01:28:47,600 --> 01:28:50,480 years to do it. And so now, now we're not 1816 01:28:50,480 --> 01:28:51,640 dealing with a problem at the top. 1817 01:28:51,640 --> 01:28:53,560 We're dealing with agencies that are a problem. 1818 01:28:53,560 --> 01:28:55,600 I think that's my position. I assume that's the same thing 1819 01:28:55,600 --> 01:28:57,480 that we're kind of coming to with what you're saying. 1820 01:28:58,680 --> 01:29:01,760 Sure, because imagine how the recruitment standards changed 20 1821 01:29:01,760 --> 01:29:03,680 years ago. So now you have people in mid 1822 01:29:03,680 --> 01:29:08,320 career and senior career who entered as very junior people 1823 01:29:08,920 --> 01:29:11,720 recruited on that basis of what we would now call DEI. 1824 01:29:13,640 --> 01:29:15,760 Yeah, 100. Percent and the CIA had had a 1825 01:29:15,760 --> 01:29:19,840 very, very lame like the FBI had very poor tech capabilities back 1826 01:29:19,840 --> 01:29:23,920 then and so they were hiring techies right Well these techies 1827 01:29:23,920 --> 01:29:29,120 are you know San Francisco type techies brought in to the CIA. 1828 01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:34,000 Well, it was neat to have a broad spectrum of the public buy 1829 01:29:34,040 --> 01:29:36,360 in on fighting terrorism, but then that changes the whole 1830 01:29:36,360 --> 01:29:39,280 culture of the whole agency. So you and it wasn't just being 1831 01:29:39,280 --> 01:29:41,320 imposed from the top. They couldn't impose things from 1832 01:29:41,320 --> 01:29:44,680 the top, say the Clappers and the Brennans of the world if 1833 01:29:44,680 --> 01:29:47,800 they didn't have organized cadres at the lower levels. 1834 01:29:48,600 --> 01:29:51,560 And these operate like old Communist Party cell groups. 1835 01:29:51,960 --> 01:29:56,120 So these are autonomous, but linked horizontally linked 1836 01:29:56,760 --> 01:30:01,080 employee research or employee resource groups, ER GS or in the 1837 01:30:01,080 --> 01:30:04,960 CIA they're called agency resource groups AR GS. 1838 01:30:04,960 --> 01:30:09,440 So this is whatever my identity of the month is or whatever. 1839 01:30:09,480 --> 01:30:12,720 However I view myself as I'm going to identify with other 1840 01:30:12,720 --> 01:30:16,160 people like me. So like you, you asked me if I 1841 01:30:16,320 --> 01:30:19,760 what my family background was and I said, you know, way back 1842 01:30:19,760 --> 01:30:21,800 in the 1600s, there was an Indian someplace. 1843 01:30:21,800 --> 01:30:24,640 But if all of a sudden I start running around saying I'm an 1844 01:30:24,760 --> 01:30:28,840 Algonquin, you know, that that's just stupidity and, and, and 1845 01:30:29,400 --> 01:30:32,600 pretty much and untruth, even though there's, there's much 1846 01:30:32,600 --> 01:30:35,560 truth there to it. But I start demanding my rights 1847 01:30:35,560 --> 01:30:38,360 as a Native American Indian and I start going around wearing 1848 01:30:38,360 --> 01:30:41,360 feathers and, and a loincloth or something, which would terrify 1849 01:30:41,480 --> 01:30:42,800 anybody. They worked for me. 1850 01:30:44,800 --> 01:30:48,320 Yeah. So, So what a stupid thing for 1851 01:30:48,320 --> 01:30:51,760 for me to demand Native American rights just because I might 1852 01:30:51,760 --> 01:30:53,440 identify with 1. And that's what's what's 1853 01:30:53,440 --> 01:30:56,880 happening with these ARGS and ER, GS throughout the government 1854 01:30:56,880 --> 01:30:58,440 bureaucracy. And it started out in the 1855 01:30:58,440 --> 01:31:02,040 private sector and in the universities and then and then 1856 01:31:02,160 --> 01:31:04,880 in the during the Clinton administration started going 1857 01:31:04,880 --> 01:31:07,320 into the government. Well, what did Bush do? 1858 01:31:07,320 --> 01:31:11,200 He kept Clinton's CIA director on George Tenet. 1859 01:31:11,480 --> 01:31:13,640 So Tenet was fine with all of that. 1860 01:31:13,640 --> 01:31:18,400 So by the time, you know, through the early 2000s, you had 1861 01:31:18,400 --> 01:31:24,240 these wackos with these identity groups now getting into the 1862 01:31:24,280 --> 01:31:26,960 lower level management so that when the radicals come in at the 1863 01:31:26,960 --> 01:31:29,920 top, they pull these people up into the senior management 1864 01:31:29,920 --> 01:31:31,600 levels and start putting their mandates down. 1865 01:31:32,440 --> 01:31:34,480 And that's really how the old common term works. 1866 01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:37,960 The old Soviet Communist Party networks around the world worked 1867 01:31:37,960 --> 01:31:39,720 in a very similar fashion, interestingly. 1868 01:31:39,720 --> 01:31:43,440 Enough the, there's a, there's an analog I'm seeing right now. 1869 01:31:43,440 --> 01:31:45,520 You talked about the guys that were in the Soviet Union that 1870 01:31:45,520 --> 01:31:48,400 were the, the KGB, the senior collectors or the senior 1871 01:31:48,400 --> 01:31:50,800 management there. And those officers would know 1872 01:31:50,800 --> 01:31:52,920 what was going on in the West and it radicalized them to be 1873 01:31:52,920 --> 01:31:55,440 more pro western or at least more sympathetic to the West 1874 01:31:55,440 --> 01:31:56,880 'cause it looked like the outcome was better. 1875 01:31:57,520 --> 01:32:00,200 I think the environment that you operate in and that you immerse 1876 01:32:00,200 --> 01:32:02,360 yourself in does have a, a general effect. 1877 01:32:02,560 --> 01:32:05,640 When I talk about the FBI needing to leave Washington, DC 1878 01:32:06,120 --> 01:32:07,920 and, and we've talked about this privately, but we'll say at 1879 01:32:07,920 --> 01:32:10,240 public here. The one of the major problems 1880 01:32:10,240 --> 01:32:14,880 with having a swampy type group of your basic level employees is 1881 01:32:14,880 --> 01:32:17,400 that if you are the FBI director, the CIA director and 1882 01:32:17,400 --> 01:32:20,040 you go down to the Starbucks that's in the lobby, which there 1883 01:32:20,040 --> 01:32:23,760 are, and, and you're sitting around the everyday secretaries 1884 01:32:23,760 --> 01:32:25,880 and intelligence analysts on the front lines and the people who 1885 01:32:25,880 --> 01:32:28,560 are the SOS and the Mappas and all these different lower level 1886 01:32:28,560 --> 01:32:31,520 positions. The banter that you hear is pro 1887 01:32:31,520 --> 01:32:34,560 government, pro left. And you are hearing that that is 1888 01:32:34,560 --> 01:32:37,080 what America looks like because that's what your day looks like. 1889 01:32:37,080 --> 01:32:40,480 You're, you're surrounded by it. And so whether you may have, you 1890 01:32:40,480 --> 01:32:43,160 know, libertarian leanings or lowercase C conservative type 1891 01:32:43,160 --> 01:32:45,440 feelings, that's not what you're surrounded by. 1892 01:32:45,440 --> 01:32:47,880 And it radicalizes you because that's what you think is normal. 1893 01:32:48,160 --> 01:32:51,040 And where you are is what you think is normal, which is why my 1894 01:32:51,040 --> 01:32:55,040 argument has always been Kansas City, Omaha, I don't care where 1895 01:32:55,040 --> 01:32:56,720 you put it. Put it somewhere in the middle 1896 01:32:56,720 --> 01:32:58,560 of America. And you know, Huntsville is a is 1897 01:32:58,560 --> 01:33:00,640 a cheap choice for us just because there's already a big 1898 01:33:00,640 --> 01:33:03,240 base of operations there with billions of dollars already 1899 01:33:03,240 --> 01:33:05,280 spent. But move it from something like 1900 01:33:05,280 --> 01:33:07,160 DC. We talked about people in DC 1901 01:33:07,160 --> 01:33:08,680 think that America looks like DC. 1902 01:33:09,000 --> 01:33:10,440 It's the same problem New Yorkers have. 1903 01:33:10,680 --> 01:33:12,960 It looks nothing like most of America. 1904 01:33:13,720 --> 01:33:15,400 And I don't know why they don't know that, but maybe they just 1905 01:33:15,400 --> 01:33:17,280 don't travel or when they do, they just think, oh, they're 1906 01:33:17,280 --> 01:33:18,920 just hiding the real America from me. 1907 01:33:19,000 --> 01:33:21,320 It looks actually like where I live, which is crappy. 1908 01:33:21,640 --> 01:33:23,600 It's it's just so strange. But this is this is the 1909 01:33:23,600 --> 01:33:26,920 fundamental problem is that it's it's now, it's now encouraging 1910 01:33:26,920 --> 01:33:29,360 that spin of operations, even in a worse and worse way. 1911 01:33:29,360 --> 01:33:33,320 They're radicalizing. Yeah, yeah. 1912 01:33:33,440 --> 01:33:36,040 And and and this part of the dilemma, what do we do with the 1913 01:33:36,040 --> 01:33:38,880 FBI? So moving it out of DC is a 1914 01:33:38,880 --> 01:33:41,280 great idea, but then what happens to those communities, 1915 01:33:42,280 --> 01:33:44,200 right? Every time you have a big 1916 01:33:44,320 --> 01:33:48,160 federal project go someplace, you have, you know, craziness 1917 01:33:48,160 --> 01:33:52,200 emerge around it of whether it's all same with university towns 1918 01:33:52,600 --> 01:33:55,240 and college towns. So, So maybe not so much 1919 01:33:55,240 --> 01:33:58,400 military bases, military towns, maybe not yet, but it's 1920 01:33:58,400 --> 01:34:02,360 certainly going to go that way. So So yeah, you've got a great 1921 01:34:02,360 --> 01:34:04,920 idea to move it out of town, and Huntsville is a good, cheap 1922 01:34:04,920 --> 01:34:07,480 choice. But what about the people of 1923 01:34:07,480 --> 01:34:09,320 Alabama? I mean. 1924 01:34:09,440 --> 01:34:11,520 Very sympathetic to that because the last thing you want to do is 1925 01:34:11,520 --> 01:34:13,400 go drop in. Like the question is this, are 1926 01:34:13,400 --> 01:34:18,360 1500 or 2000 FBI employees going and plunking down in the middle 1927 01:34:18,360 --> 01:34:21,040 of Huntsville, AL going to change the culture of Alabama? 1928 01:34:21,400 --> 01:34:22,800 Probably not. Will it change the culture of 1929 01:34:22,800 --> 01:34:23,840 Huntsville? Possibly. 1930 01:34:23,920 --> 01:34:25,400 A lot of money comes in with it, right? 1931 01:34:25,680 --> 01:34:27,960 And those people are then now dependent on those jobs and so 1932 01:34:27,960 --> 01:34:29,080 on. So you, you do move it. 1933 01:34:29,200 --> 01:34:32,280 But the other question is, do we bring in enough local people 1934 01:34:32,280 --> 01:34:34,160 from Huntsville? Because there's an awful lot of 1935 01:34:34,160 --> 01:34:36,080 people that work in DC that are not going to leave DC. 1936 01:34:36,360 --> 01:34:39,240 That's the only hope that I would hold on to that your lower 1937 01:34:39,240 --> 01:34:42,560 level staff, the janitor staff, the, the secretarial staff, the, 1938 01:34:43,040 --> 01:34:45,080 you know, the basic level, what they call management and program 1939 01:34:45,080 --> 01:34:46,440 analysts, which are not analysts at all. 1940 01:34:46,440 --> 01:34:48,960 They're just, you know, low level kind of grunt employees. 1941 01:34:49,160 --> 01:34:51,400 Are those people going to be able to shift the culture so 1942 01:34:51,400 --> 01:34:54,000 that when you go down and have that that coffee, it's not at a 1943 01:34:54,000 --> 01:34:56,240 Starbucks, it's at a Dunkin' Donuts now, or it's at something 1944 01:34:56,240 --> 01:34:58,000 that's a little bit more. Maybe there's a Waffle House 1945 01:34:58,000 --> 01:35:01,320 outpost on the base and maybe you go and have that and that 1946 01:35:01,320 --> 01:35:03,520 actually moves people back towards the center. 1947 01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:05,520 If it tax it back. That's the only hope that I 1948 01:35:05,520 --> 01:35:07,400 would have. I'm also down with the disbanded 1949 01:35:07,400 --> 01:35:09,360 all completely. You've, you've failed in your 1950 01:35:09,360 --> 01:35:12,200 mandate and you tarnished your brand and, and it doesn't seem 1951 01:35:12,200 --> 01:35:14,560 like anybody's interested in doing that, even though I, I 1952 01:35:14,560 --> 01:35:17,200 think there's a strong argument for it at this point, especially 1953 01:35:17,200 --> 01:35:18,720 if we're talking. About Brand is so powerful. 1954 01:35:18,720 --> 01:35:20,960 It's kind of like Disney where you know how rotten it is, but 1955 01:35:20,960 --> 01:35:23,120 you have to watch it anyway and expose your kids to it. 1956 01:35:23,400 --> 01:35:25,440 I suppose. But if you if your argument is, 1957 01:35:25,440 --> 01:35:28,960 and I don't think you're wrong that that Hoover, you know, had 1958 01:35:28,960 --> 01:35:31,240 nowhere near the amount of corruption and capabilities that 1959 01:35:31,240 --> 01:35:34,280 a Chris Ray does, how terrifying is that for most Americans to 1960 01:35:34,280 --> 01:35:35,760 probably hear that for the first time? 1961 01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:38,920 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't like Hoover 1962 01:35:38,920 --> 01:35:41,480 blackmailed JFK to stay there. His his. 1963 01:35:41,600 --> 01:35:44,560 He was. By law, he was mandated to leave 1964 01:35:44,560 --> 01:35:47,880 the FBI at age 62. Can't. 1965 01:35:47,880 --> 01:35:51,440 The Kennedys wanted him to stay on because he was doing their 1966 01:35:51,440 --> 01:35:55,480 work for him. He didn't need to blackmail 1967 01:35:55,480 --> 01:35:57,200 them. Now, you could say that, well, 1968 01:35:57,200 --> 01:35:59,760 there was a subtle blackmail, but that's not the point. 1969 01:36:00,000 --> 01:36:04,360 Any FBI director can do that to any leader if there's something 1970 01:36:04,640 --> 01:36:07,720 legitimate there. Hoover did have files on 1971 01:36:07,880 --> 01:36:10,400 everybody. And even when, after he died, 1972 01:36:11,560 --> 01:36:15,400 Judge Lawrence Silberman was tasked to go in and to find 1973 01:36:15,400 --> 01:36:18,360 Hoover's files. And the FBI, FBI director, I 1974 01:36:18,360 --> 01:36:20,520 think Kelly at the time said they're not here. 1975 01:36:20,800 --> 01:36:23,120 He didn't realize that they were in the file cabinets lining the 1976 01:36:23,160 --> 01:36:25,600 hallway to his office. They were just part of the 1977 01:36:25,600 --> 01:36:27,440 landscape. And he never, they were not in 1978 01:36:27,440 --> 01:36:30,520 any database. So Hoover had a lot of really 1979 01:36:30,840 --> 01:36:34,120 gross dirt on a lot of people, but he didn't use it and he 1980 01:36:34,120 --> 01:36:36,640 didn't weaponize it. Well, he he did use it, but he 1981 01:36:36,640 --> 01:36:40,440 used it not against the American population. 1982 01:36:40,680 --> 01:36:42,480 It was to protect the Bureau a lot of times. 1983 01:36:42,480 --> 01:36:44,720 It was to maintain what he wanted to be able to do for the 1984 01:36:44,720 --> 01:36:46,600 mission set that he saw as a fundamental good. 1985 01:36:46,960 --> 01:36:49,600 Yeah, which is. And he saw himself as a real 1986 01:36:49,600 --> 01:36:52,480 protect, rightly or wrongly, found himself as a protector of 1987 01:36:52,480 --> 01:36:54,120 the country. Because if you if you go back 1988 01:36:54,120 --> 01:36:57,080 and read his, he was a prolific writer and a prolific speaker. 1989 01:36:57,520 --> 01:37:00,480 He would talk about preserving the Christian values of America. 1990 01:37:01,200 --> 01:37:05,080 He would talk about Marxist infiltration of churches and 1991 01:37:05,080 --> 01:37:08,240 communist infiltration of schools and how they're out to 1992 01:37:08,240 --> 01:37:12,280 brainwash your kids. He was warning all of these, 1993 01:37:12,280 --> 01:37:14,960 everything that you see now, whoever started warning about as 1994 01:37:14,960 --> 01:37:19,160 early as the 1920s. Yeah, predating FDR then. 1995 01:37:21,200 --> 01:37:23,040 Yeah. And we let them all in and, and, 1996 01:37:23,080 --> 01:37:25,880 and now they've they've won it. They're almost like the. 1997 01:37:26,160 --> 01:37:28,120 It seems to me that they're like the dog that that has caught the 1998 01:37:28,120 --> 01:37:29,640 car and doesn't know what to do with the hubcap. 1999 01:37:29,640 --> 01:37:33,720 It's like, I mean, it can smash the hubcap on the ground, but it 2000 01:37:33,720 --> 01:37:36,040 can't eat the whole car. But at the same time it doesn't 2001 01:37:36,040 --> 01:37:39,080 want the car to keep driving. And and we're just there doesn't 2002 01:37:39,080 --> 01:37:41,560 seem to be an end state that would be a victory. 2003 01:37:41,640 --> 01:37:44,120 Maybe that's just a fundamentally American inability 2004 01:37:44,120 --> 01:37:46,360 to look into the future, but it doesn't seem an end state 2005 01:37:46,360 --> 01:37:47,640 victory. Like what's a victory for the 2006 01:37:47,640 --> 01:37:51,560 left look like other than I guess just just dictatorship? 2007 01:37:51,560 --> 01:37:53,120 Is that what? Is that where it has to go like 2008 01:37:53,120 --> 01:37:55,200 you stated? Well, luckily leftists end up 2009 01:37:55,240 --> 01:37:57,040 eating their own when they take power, so. 2010 01:37:57,040 --> 01:38:00,200 So yeah. How did they not see that? 2011 01:38:00,200 --> 01:38:01,600 That seems like the most fundamental truth. 2012 01:38:01,840 --> 01:38:05,320 It's like, OK, this agency which used to go after people on the 2013 01:38:05,320 --> 01:38:07,880 left and is now going after people on the right, It's still 2014 01:38:07,880 --> 01:38:09,520 eating people on the left every day. 2015 01:38:09,520 --> 01:38:12,120 It's going after Muslims and blacks in ways that they would 2016 01:38:12,120 --> 01:38:14,200 consider weaponized. And I'm not real crazy about it 2017 01:38:14,200 --> 01:38:17,200 right now either. They they can't even see that 2018 01:38:17,200 --> 01:38:19,800 because what it's it's mostly doing our dirty work. 2019 01:38:23,560 --> 01:38:25,880 Yeah, it, well, a lot of things just can't be answered. 2020 01:38:25,880 --> 01:38:29,680 We, we, we, you know, you leave, you're left speechless. 2021 01:38:30,040 --> 01:38:33,240 Because this was the thing, in researching this book, if if had 2022 01:38:33,240 --> 01:38:37,280 had somebody said to me, J Edgar Hoover was far more restrained 2023 01:38:37,280 --> 01:38:41,160 with his abuses than Chris Ray is with today's FBII would have 2024 01:38:41,160 --> 01:38:44,800 thought this guy's, you know, this guy's crazy. 2025 01:38:45,160 --> 01:38:47,320 That's the hypothesis you'd assume that you were going to 2026 01:38:47,320 --> 01:38:49,880 disprove by doing your research. No, it never occur. 2027 01:38:49,880 --> 01:38:52,800 It didn't even occur to me until I started doing the research and 2028 01:38:52,800 --> 01:38:54,640 I thought, well, why didn't Hoover smash these guys when he 2029 01:38:54,640 --> 01:38:56,800 good? Well, he didn't have a lot to do 2030 01:38:56,800 --> 01:38:58,160 that. Why didn't he go after this when 2031 01:38:58,160 --> 01:39:00,640 he could? Didn't have a lot to do that he 2032 01:39:00,640 --> 01:39:04,280 was he had his own really great ideas and did some really 2033 01:39:04,280 --> 01:39:06,480 valuable services to the country he wanted to. 2034 01:39:07,360 --> 01:39:11,280 He he kept, for example, FBI was a foreign intelligence service 2035 01:39:11,280 --> 01:39:13,640 during World War Two in the American hemisphere. 2036 01:39:14,120 --> 01:39:17,400 He fought for that. He wanted to make the FBI an A 2037 01:39:17,400 --> 01:39:19,520 global intelligence service for the US. 2038 01:39:20,320 --> 01:39:23,480 So he lost that fight. But he succeeded in keeping at 2039 01:39:23,480 --> 01:39:26,000 least the Americas under FBI purview. 2040 01:39:26,000 --> 01:39:29,760 And in doing so he probably changed history because the OSS 2041 01:39:29,760 --> 01:39:32,960 person in charge of Latin America was a Soviet agent. 2042 01:39:33,680 --> 01:39:36,920 Perfect. So, so he did a lot of really 2043 01:39:36,920 --> 01:39:40,680 neat things. He just did it in a he got too 2044 01:39:40,680 --> 01:39:42,400 long in the tooth. He was there too long and he 2045 01:39:42,400 --> 01:39:45,280 didn't have laws to govern this. So the like you said a while 2046 01:39:45,280 --> 01:39:48,480 ago, in the 40s and 50s, you didn't question the FBI 2047 01:39:48,480 --> 01:39:50,680 director. In the 50s, you didn't have 2048 01:39:50,680 --> 01:39:54,600 oversight hearings about the CIA, not until really Watergate. 2049 01:39:54,600 --> 01:40:01,120 It was even even as a kid I talked to senators about hearing 2050 01:40:01,120 --> 01:40:02,480 something. We really shouldn't be 2051 01:40:02,480 --> 01:40:05,880 questioning things about the CIA because they should just be left 2052 01:40:05,880 --> 01:40:07,880 to do what they're supposed to do to protect the country. 2053 01:40:08,040 --> 01:40:10,600 And this is at the time when the CIA was becoming really super 2054 01:40:10,600 --> 01:40:13,080 controversial because of what Reagan was weaponizing it 2055 01:40:13,080 --> 01:40:15,280 against what? Against the international 2056 01:40:15,280 --> 01:40:18,840 communist movement. So you had. 2057 01:40:18,960 --> 01:40:23,400 So if you have lawmakers think we can't question these guys. 2058 01:40:24,640 --> 01:40:27,320 Then of course, you're going to get impunity because that's 2059 01:40:27,320 --> 01:40:30,360 pretty much been blessed by Congress for these agencies to 2060 01:40:30,360 --> 01:40:37,240 act with impunity. President Johnson had a, had a 2061 01:40:37,240 --> 01:40:38,800 quote. He was, he thought, you know, 2062 01:40:38,800 --> 01:40:41,360 Hoover's been around too long, it's time for him to go. 2063 01:40:41,840 --> 01:40:43,920 But he's so handy at spying on opponents. 2064 01:40:43,920 --> 01:40:47,240 So he he said, you know, I'm going to team Edgar on the team. 2065 01:40:47,240 --> 01:40:50,800 I'd rather have Edgar inside the tent pissing out than outside 2066 01:40:50,800 --> 01:40:53,720 pissing in. Yes, I've heard this quote. 2067 01:40:53,800 --> 01:40:58,120 I didn't realize, but yeah. The Kennedy said you can't fire 2068 01:40:58,120 --> 01:41:00,080 God. Right. 2069 01:41:00,600 --> 01:41:03,440 So this is how they looked at the Bureau and it was kind of 2070 01:41:03,440 --> 01:41:05,480 OK. It was accepted by Democrat and 2071 01:41:05,480 --> 01:41:07,880 Republican presidents Alive you. Know what's interesting, though? 2072 01:41:08,280 --> 01:41:11,760 Durham actually almost sort of cosigned on some of these ideas, 2073 01:41:12,280 --> 01:41:15,240 stating essentially that the problem is not policy or law or 2074 01:41:15,240 --> 01:41:17,840 procedures that the FBI has, is that it fundamentally needs to 2075 01:41:17,840 --> 01:41:21,400 have good men and women that are enacting the mission of the FBI 2076 01:41:21,440 --> 01:41:23,640 like it historically has. That's sort of the argument. 2077 01:41:24,280 --> 01:41:26,840 And that's not happening. So he doesn't, he doesn't point 2078 01:41:26,840 --> 01:41:29,120 to any particular failure and say, oh, if you had just done 2079 01:41:29,120 --> 01:41:31,040 this training or if you done this when you read the Durham 2080 01:41:31,040 --> 01:41:34,520 report, his whole thing is like, like your culture is trash and 2081 01:41:34,520 --> 01:41:36,400 people aren't doing what they were designed to do. 2082 01:41:37,720 --> 01:41:39,760 He doesn't really recommend to fix other than people need to go 2083 01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:40,680 back to doing what they used to do. 2084 01:41:40,680 --> 01:41:41,840 And I don't know how you do that either. 2085 01:41:42,280 --> 01:41:44,760 No, no, because the FBI has no legal charter. 2086 01:41:46,600 --> 01:41:51,040 There was an attempt and I think 19791980 to like by 2087 01:41:51,040 --> 01:41:53,720 conservatives to have a charter for the FBI. 2088 01:41:53,720 --> 01:41:56,040 This was in the, in the aftermath of the Church 2089 01:41:56,040 --> 01:41:58,640 Committee hearings and the, the, you know, the trashing of the 2090 01:41:58,640 --> 01:42:01,560 whole intelligence community and the demoralization and so forth. 2091 01:42:02,000 --> 01:42:06,560 And let's have a legal charter for the FBI so that it that can 2092 01:42:06,560 --> 01:42:11,080 be governed by some set of principles and that was defeated 2093 01:42:11,080 --> 01:42:14,680 that never became law There's. No left and right boundary and 2094 01:42:14,680 --> 01:42:16,080 it's just doing whatever it wants to do. 2095 01:42:16,120 --> 01:42:17,640 No guard rails up. It's never a good. 2096 01:42:17,640 --> 01:42:21,360 Do you have any sort of do you have a hypothesis for correction 2097 01:42:21,360 --> 01:42:22,680 on this yet? Like you said, you didn't expect 2098 01:42:22,680 --> 01:42:24,760 that you'd come up with the the conclusion that you did when you 2099 01:42:24,800 --> 01:42:26,960 started doing this research. Have you come up with a path 2100 01:42:26,960 --> 01:42:31,320 that makes sense to you? Well, I think it's like with the 2101 01:42:31,320 --> 01:42:34,920 old OSS that did great service for our country during World War 2102 01:42:34,920 --> 01:42:37,680 2 to defeat the Nazis and the fascists and the Imperial 2103 01:42:37,680 --> 01:42:40,800 Japanese. It's time to start over. 2104 01:42:41,160 --> 01:42:46,440 You need a new ethos. You need a new culture of just 2105 01:42:46,440 --> 01:42:47,880 mainstream culture. Doesn't it be liberal or 2106 01:42:47,880 --> 01:42:49,400 conservative? It just has to be American. 2107 01:42:49,400 --> 01:42:52,280 But when? Here's the thing with the 2108 01:42:52,280 --> 01:42:56,120 wokeness that's permeated it. Imagine wokeness and critical 2109 01:42:56,120 --> 01:42:58,640 theory. It starts out with a with a with 2110 01:42:58,680 --> 01:43:01,080 a with an end state that they want. 2111 01:43:01,520 --> 01:43:04,200 So everything has to be manipulated to achieve that end 2112 01:43:04,200 --> 01:43:09,080 state. Imagine rules of evidence being 2113 01:43:09,080 --> 01:43:14,440 applied in that fashion by the FBI, where you collect evidence 2114 01:43:14,440 --> 01:43:17,160 and then you present evidence and then you have investigative 2115 01:43:17,160 --> 01:43:20,480 rules of procedure that are all governed by the end state that 2116 01:43:20,480 --> 01:43:22,480 you wish. And of course, everybody wants 2117 01:43:22,480 --> 01:43:24,160 to prosecute the guy they're investigating. 2118 01:43:24,200 --> 01:43:27,040 I get that. Or at least let the facts speak 2119 01:43:27,040 --> 01:43:28,520 for themselves and let the evidence speak. 2120 01:43:28,840 --> 01:43:31,520 But there are rules for this. But if if you're basically 2121 01:43:32,320 --> 01:43:35,480 inventing facts and distorting facts on purpose to achieve a 2122 01:43:35,480 --> 01:43:38,840 political end state, then you've thrown out the whole idea of 2123 01:43:38,840 --> 01:43:42,160 justice and law enforcement, and the same with an intelligence 2124 01:43:42,160 --> 01:43:45,240 service. If you're tasking intelligence 2125 01:43:45,240 --> 01:43:48,320 and then collecting intelligence and then analyzing intelligence 2126 01:43:48,520 --> 01:43:55,080 to inform by law the president, but you're doing it to achieve 2127 01:43:55,080 --> 01:43:59,600 your own personal end state, you're not serving the country. 2128 01:44:01,560 --> 01:44:05,360 You become a danger. And if the whole culture is that 2129 01:44:05,360 --> 01:44:09,600 way, look at the CIA recruitment videos that were put together 2130 01:44:09,600 --> 01:44:11,440 under Trump. I saw. 2131 01:44:12,160 --> 01:44:14,520 They were released under Biden, but they were put together under 2132 01:44:14,520 --> 01:44:16,400 Trump. And you have this, this 2133 01:44:16,960 --> 01:44:20,960 self-serving, you know, every sentence was was in the first 2134 01:44:20,960 --> 01:44:25,520 person. This, this, what do you call it? 2135 01:44:25,520 --> 01:44:29,320 Intersectional woman with an admitted mental disorder. 2136 01:44:30,080 --> 01:44:32,840 Yes, she's she's not an urgent or whatever the hell she was 2137 01:44:32,840 --> 01:44:35,680 talking. Neurodivergent and she can do 2138 01:44:35,680 --> 01:44:37,920 whatever and she's this and that and she's so wonderful. 2139 01:44:38,600 --> 01:44:40,760 She's the poster child for the CIA. 2140 01:44:40,880 --> 01:44:44,200 This is where we're trying to recruit people like that to be 2141 01:44:44,200 --> 01:44:46,920 intelligence analysts. It looks like narcissism to me. 2142 01:44:47,840 --> 01:44:50,360 But if you had one person with that, OK, that's an issue that 2143 01:44:50,360 --> 01:44:52,880 can be handled in human resources, which is a whole 2144 01:44:52,880 --> 01:44:54,680 another that you know, can of worms. 2145 01:44:55,080 --> 01:44:57,760 But but it's a recruitment video. 2146 01:44:58,800 --> 01:45:01,520 This is who we want. Yeah, they don't want people 2147 01:45:01,520 --> 01:45:04,440 like you. Bring yourself centered weird 2148 01:45:04,440 --> 01:45:06,720 focus. We would have just generally 2149 01:45:06,720 --> 01:45:10,800 called non scientifically weirdos when I was growing up. 2150 01:45:11,240 --> 01:45:15,280 Bring the weirdos, not bring the Captain America types, not bring 2151 01:45:15,280 --> 01:45:17,360 the selfless self-serving patriotic types. 2152 01:45:17,360 --> 01:45:19,360 Like just bring me the people that are so focused on their own 2153 01:45:19,360 --> 01:45:21,960 weirdness and, and we love you for it. 2154 01:45:21,960 --> 01:45:23,160 Like come here and be part of the CIA. 2155 01:45:23,160 --> 01:45:24,640 That's what that's what those videos say to me. 2156 01:45:25,240 --> 01:45:27,120 It's not surprising that's who's and also what you're going to do 2157 01:45:27,120 --> 01:45:30,080 is you're going to turn guys that are like me that decided 2158 01:45:30,080 --> 01:45:33,800 when I was 27 that if I die in service to their country, then 2159 01:45:33,800 --> 01:45:35,640 that's an appropriate use of my life. 2160 01:45:36,280 --> 01:45:38,960 And I think you got to be a certain type of person to do 2161 01:45:38,960 --> 01:45:40,760 that. Many of our 17 and 18 year olds 2162 01:45:40,760 --> 01:45:42,200 have no concept of what they're signing up for. 2163 01:45:42,200 --> 01:45:43,440 They do it anyway. God bless them. 2164 01:45:43,760 --> 01:45:46,360 And we need that. There's also some older people 2165 01:45:46,360 --> 01:45:48,280 that have looked in, you know, guys that were in my recruitment 2166 01:45:48,280 --> 01:45:51,840 class 27, 252627 to have a little bit of taste of life. 2167 01:45:52,280 --> 01:45:53,800 And they still said, yeah, this is what I'm about. 2168 01:45:53,800 --> 01:45:56,440 Like I'm into this. You had a bunch of guys re up 2169 01:45:56,440 --> 01:45:59,040 after 911 because they believe in the concept of what America 2170 01:45:59,040 --> 01:46:00,120 is. And you're going to take those 2171 01:46:00,120 --> 01:46:01,640 people and you're going to say, wait, you want to have some 2172 01:46:01,640 --> 01:46:06,720 black lesbian neurodivergent, you know, ADD weird things that 2173 01:46:06,720 --> 01:46:08,160 she wants to celebrate about herself? 2174 01:46:09,040 --> 01:46:11,000 That's not my values. I'm not going to go serve that. 2175 01:46:11,440 --> 01:46:13,000 Like let all the weirdos go do that. 2176 01:46:13,000 --> 01:46:15,320 And we're going to have an entire agency of weirdos with an 2177 01:46:15,320 --> 01:46:19,640 awful lot of powers. Yeah, if you have certain traits 2178 01:46:20,120 --> 01:46:22,680 that you can't help, but if you're still the best person for 2179 01:46:22,680 --> 01:46:24,280 the job, you're the best person for the job. 2180 01:46:24,440 --> 01:46:26,920 I think we should have more autists in the intelligence 2181 01:46:26,920 --> 01:46:30,400 community. They think so differently from 2182 01:46:30,400 --> 01:46:33,600 everybody else and they focus so well and they're very fact 2183 01:46:33,600 --> 01:46:36,000 driven. Those are my favorite analysts, 2184 01:46:36,000 --> 01:46:38,560 by the way. They're like, give me a total 2185 01:46:38,560 --> 01:46:41,920 weirdo that does that's socially out outrageously strange that 2186 01:46:41,920 --> 01:46:44,560 nobody wants to talk to, but we'll answer questions in a 2187 01:46:44,560 --> 01:46:47,280 blunt and honest way, like I'm 100% behaving. 2188 01:46:47,320 --> 01:46:49,640 That person needs to be doing some thinking with me. 2189 01:46:49,960 --> 01:46:52,200 We need more of that kind of thing, but we can't hire 2190 01:46:52,200 --> 01:46:56,520 somebody because they have that. We can't send them like get 2191 01:46:56,560 --> 01:46:59,080 sources or anything like we need you doing the source work. 2192 01:46:59,080 --> 01:47:00,800 You're the guy for that. You're, you know, personable and 2193 01:47:00,800 --> 01:47:02,720 interesting and, you know, walking into a place and 2194 01:47:02,720 --> 01:47:05,280 accidentally, you know, saying the right thing and that's you 2195 01:47:05,280 --> 01:47:07,040 need that. But the autism 100%. 2196 01:47:07,040 --> 01:47:08,800 Give me those people on the the screen. 2197 01:47:08,800 --> 01:47:12,160 Yeah. Yeah, but if you, you know, I 2198 01:47:12,160 --> 01:47:14,840 mean, my son went through Army basic training, but he was only 2199 01:47:14,840 --> 01:47:17,440 as good as the chubbiest girl in his unit. 2200 01:47:19,960 --> 01:47:22,760 That's how basic training was at Fort Sill, you know, 10 years 2201 01:47:22,760 --> 01:47:27,160 ago. And you had you had high school 2202 01:47:27,160 --> 01:47:31,000 football players grow fat in basic training because they 2203 01:47:31,000 --> 01:47:35,000 couldn't work out right. Because we have to all do the 2204 01:47:35,000 --> 01:47:36,520 same thing at the same. Time so think of this 2205 01:47:36,520 --> 01:47:39,920 intellectually now and and where you have and this is where this 2206 01:47:39,920 --> 01:47:44,120 is where the Harvard controversy is so handy right now in terms 2207 01:47:44,120 --> 01:47:48,560 of what are the universities producing in terms of 2208 01:47:48,680 --> 01:47:53,320 intelligence analysts and intelligence agents when they 2209 01:47:54,080 --> 01:47:57,880 either don't know or they deplore American history and 2210 01:47:57,880 --> 01:47:59,920 founding principles. If you hate your country and 2211 01:47:59,920 --> 01:48:04,560 what it was founded on, how can you take an oath to uphold the 2212 01:48:04,560 --> 01:48:07,720 Constitution? And secondly, how can you defend 2213 01:48:07,720 --> 01:48:08,920 your country if you don't believe in it? 2214 01:48:11,120 --> 01:48:12,800 That's not a liberal or conservative issue. 2215 01:48:12,800 --> 01:48:15,640 That's a crazy versus non crazy issue. 2216 01:48:15,640 --> 01:48:22,440 But so when you're packing the intelligence community with the 2217 01:48:22,440 --> 01:48:24,520 finest of the finest from Harvard, I don't know if Harvard 2218 01:48:24,520 --> 01:48:27,400 grads even go into the CIA anymore, but this is this is 2219 01:48:27,400 --> 01:48:29,600 throughout academia. You've got the same problem. 2220 01:48:29,800 --> 01:48:31,360 They don't understand their history. 2221 01:48:31,680 --> 01:48:35,120 They don't find me one non Marxist Latin American studies 2222 01:48:35,120 --> 01:48:36,840 department at any American University. 2223 01:48:36,840 --> 01:48:39,840 I don't know of one, but if our people working in our own 2224 01:48:39,840 --> 01:48:43,840 hemisphere are educated with a Marxist view of the hemisphere 2225 01:48:44,360 --> 01:48:46,720 and the politics of the hemisphere, it's no wonder that 2226 01:48:46,720 --> 01:48:49,600 we're staging A coup right now in Guatemala because it's a 2227 01:48:49,600 --> 01:48:53,880 conservative Christian country. And, and so USAID and the CIA 2228 01:48:53,880 --> 01:48:56,800 and the State Department have been working for years to change 2229 01:48:56,800 --> 01:49:01,640 their whole judiciary to have a judicial coup d'etat in that 2230 01:49:01,720 --> 01:49:03,400 country. And then we we sanctioned 2231 01:49:03,400 --> 01:49:06,080 Guatemala lawmakers from coming to the United States because 2232 01:49:06,080 --> 01:49:09,320 they vote the wrong way, even if they have sons in the US Marine 2233 01:49:09,320 --> 01:49:12,480 Corps as as was in one case. So this is the kind of thing 2234 01:49:12,480 --> 01:49:17,800 you're seeing worldwide. You kind of got to think. 2235 01:49:17,800 --> 01:49:19,560 And Dinesh wrote a book about this. 2236 01:49:19,560 --> 01:49:23,200 Dinesh D'souza wrote a book, The Enemy Within, looking at what 2237 01:49:23,200 --> 01:49:27,920 motivates Islamic extremism. And a lot of it is our own 2238 01:49:27,920 --> 01:49:30,000 wokeness that we're exporting on everybody. 2239 01:49:32,120 --> 01:49:34,080 Yeah, the weirdest thing. I think I had a long 2240 01:49:34,080 --> 01:49:36,880 conversation with Tara Reid about what happened and now 2241 01:49:36,880 --> 01:49:40,680 she's in Moscow and she's she's in Russia and she's she said, 2242 01:49:40,680 --> 01:49:42,440 you know, I was raised like everybody else, even though 2243 01:49:42,440 --> 01:49:44,280 she's kind of on the anti war and political left. 2244 01:49:44,280 --> 01:49:47,040 She said, you know, I sort of believe that Russia was always 2245 01:49:47,040 --> 01:49:49,560 our enemy and I'm over here now. They look like they're a lot 2246 01:49:49,560 --> 01:49:52,160 happier than what I saw and I'm a lot less fearful. 2247 01:49:52,400 --> 01:49:54,960 The idea that somebody in the United States who was not like 2248 01:49:54,960 --> 01:49:57,360 an enemy of the state that the Americans would look at and go 2249 01:49:57,360 --> 01:49:59,240 like, yeah, you're a problem. You sold secrets, whatever you 2250 01:49:59,240 --> 01:50:00,880 did, you gave missile technology away. 2251 01:50:01,160 --> 01:50:04,840 Somebody who just spoke out against the regime, sought 2252 01:50:04,840 --> 01:50:07,400 sanctuary in Moscow. I that that's untenable to me as 2253 01:50:07,400 --> 01:50:09,240 someone who grew up in in the 80s and 90s. 2254 01:50:09,480 --> 01:50:11,280 It's unbelievable. And and it's a complete 2255 01:50:11,280 --> 01:50:14,120 reversal. And, you know, maybe it's a 2256 01:50:14,120 --> 01:50:16,280 failure to grasp that the Cold War is over. 2257 01:50:16,400 --> 01:50:19,680 And as you said, like some of those people there, they 2258 01:50:19,680 --> 01:50:21,440 actually embraced when it ended, it was ended for them. 2259 01:50:21,440 --> 01:50:23,200 Maybe they were like, OK, let's next stage. 2260 01:50:23,400 --> 01:50:25,160 It's a different stage now. Obviously what's going on in 2261 01:50:25,160 --> 01:50:26,480 Russia is not the same kind of animal. 2262 01:50:26,480 --> 01:50:28,920 And some of the old cronies are there, but it's not the same 2263 01:50:28,920 --> 01:50:30,280 enemy, even if we want to treat it that way. 2264 01:50:30,280 --> 01:50:34,600 And the idea that. People, it's not communist and 2265 01:50:34,600 --> 01:50:38,200 I, I think this is where a lot of American leftists started 2266 01:50:38,200 --> 01:50:42,400 hating Putin was because Putin is not a communist. 2267 01:50:42,400 --> 01:50:44,600 He's a Russian nationalist and they're two very different 2268 01:50:44,600 --> 01:50:47,400 things. He's still not a nice guy, he's 2269 01:50:47,400 --> 01:50:50,120 still a tyrant. He's still, he, he assassinated 2270 01:50:50,120 --> 01:50:52,960 2 members of my editorial board. So I, I take it a little bit 2271 01:50:52,960 --> 01:50:55,720 personally. He he's, he's got 10s of 2272 01:50:55,720 --> 01:50:59,120 thousands of nuclear warheads aimed at us and he's got a huge 2273 01:50:59,240 --> 01:51:01,680 intelligence presence that continues to compromise our 2274 01:51:01,680 --> 01:51:05,280 whole country now. Like an old school Russian, like 2275 01:51:05,280 --> 01:51:07,400 the old school Russian. More like a monarch than he was, 2276 01:51:07,400 --> 01:51:09,720 than he is. Like the Communist Party is sort 2277 01:51:09,720 --> 01:51:11,480 of. Like the KGB men called 2278 01:51:11,480 --> 01:51:14,400 themselves Chichisti or checkists after the check up, 2279 01:51:14,400 --> 01:51:18,000 which was the first Soviet intelligence agency. 2280 01:51:18,000 --> 01:51:23,000 So it's the, it's the the KGB traces its origins to the check 2281 01:51:23,000 --> 01:51:24,600 up. He's a checkist and he's a proud 2282 01:51:24,600 --> 01:51:27,120 checkist. And we, we want to call him a 2283 01:51:27,120 --> 01:51:28,520 fascist. He's not a fascist. 2284 01:51:28,520 --> 01:51:30,160 He's not a Nazi. He's not a communist. 2285 01:51:30,200 --> 01:51:32,360 He's a checkist. If you understand the mentality, 2286 01:51:32,520 --> 01:51:34,880 then you can understand Putin and you can work with him. 2287 01:51:34,880 --> 01:51:42,000 But we have to remember, if it wasn't for we depended on Putin 2288 01:51:42,280 --> 01:51:46,440 to supply our forces in Afghanistan by land, we were 2289 01:51:46,440 --> 01:51:49,880 shipping things in by sea to the port of Riga, Latvia, and then 2290 01:51:49,880 --> 01:51:52,040 through the Russian river system, through the Russian 2291 01:51:52,040 --> 01:51:54,800 railroad system all the way to Central Asia and then down to 2292 01:51:54,800 --> 01:51:57,960 Afghanistan. And so, so you can work with the 2293 01:51:57,960 --> 01:52:00,760 guy. He's not going to attack us. 2294 01:52:00,800 --> 01:52:03,120 He'll subvert us. But we never pushed back. 2295 01:52:03,560 --> 01:52:06,320 Like when the Soviet Union collapsed, we were saying, let's 2296 01:52:06,320 --> 01:52:10,600 have a stand down against all offensive Russian intelligence 2297 01:52:10,600 --> 01:52:12,680 OPS against the United States. Start over. 2298 01:52:13,240 --> 01:52:14,680 There was no need for this kind of thing anymore. 2299 01:52:14,680 --> 01:52:18,440 And the United States government under Bush Senior was against 2300 01:52:18,440 --> 01:52:19,560 it. Clinton was against it. 2301 01:52:20,040 --> 01:52:22,000 So. So they were against opening up 2302 01:52:22,000 --> 01:52:25,480 the KGB archives and pushing with the huge leverage we had to 2303 01:52:25,480 --> 01:52:29,160 open up the KGB archives to expose all the KGB agents in our 2304 01:52:29,160 --> 01:52:33,680 society. Bush 41? 2305 01:52:34,200 --> 01:52:36,760 No, Bush. Yeah, 41 and Clinton both 2306 01:52:36,760 --> 01:52:39,160 opposed it. The whole political 2307 01:52:39,160 --> 01:52:42,280 establishment oppose it, which has to make you wonder, what is 2308 01:52:42,280 --> 01:52:44,440 it in the political establishment that makes it so 2309 01:52:44,440 --> 01:52:48,440 that only the most left wing and the most conservative people are 2310 01:52:48,440 --> 01:52:52,000 advocating for exposing these KGB archives? 2311 01:52:53,600 --> 01:52:57,680 And there it is then. That's something we talk about 2312 01:52:57,680 --> 01:52:59,920 like a uniparty or a single kind of focus. 2313 01:52:59,920 --> 01:53:02,480 It doesn't have to have parties. Probably even the wrong word, 2314 01:53:03,080 --> 01:53:06,640 but just Co aligned interests that that seem to work well, 2315 01:53:07,040 --> 01:53:10,200 perfectly well together. Which is why again, get people 2316 01:53:10,200 --> 01:53:12,280 out of the DC swamp and that sort of power circle. 2317 01:53:12,280 --> 01:53:14,120 It'd be really interesting to see if we could decentralize 2318 01:53:14,120 --> 01:53:16,840 some of our government. I'd love to see it, but there's 2319 01:53:16,840 --> 01:53:19,040 an awful lot of people that seem Co aligned to not make that the 2320 01:53:19,040 --> 01:53:20,800 case. Doesn't seem to be serving 2321 01:53:20,800 --> 01:53:24,040 Americans very well right now. Yeah, well, I'm on Capitol Hill 2322 01:53:24,040 --> 01:53:26,360 right now, so you see it all around me. 2323 01:53:26,360 --> 01:53:29,360 So. So I, I don't, I don't want to 2324 01:53:29,360 --> 01:53:31,920 expose too many people in, in my own neighborhood right now 2325 01:53:31,920 --> 01:53:33,480 because it would show where I am. 2326 01:53:33,480 --> 01:53:37,880 But you, you see the if, if they had federal, if they lost their 2327 01:53:37,880 --> 01:53:41,480 federal jobs, they would lose their, their million and a half 2328 01:53:41,480 --> 01:53:43,920 dollar homes. They would lose their secondary 2329 01:53:43,920 --> 01:53:46,400 homes, they would lose their entire lifestyle, they'd lose 2330 01:53:46,400 --> 01:53:49,680 their friends and networks. They couldn't do the 2331 01:53:49,680 --> 01:53:51,800 entertaining they do. They couldn't take the vacations 2332 01:53:51,800 --> 01:53:54,640 they take. So you have both spouses working 2333 01:53:54,640 --> 01:53:57,600 on taxpayer funded salaries and then they go into government 2334 01:53:57,600 --> 01:54:01,240 contracting with their now taxpayer funded pension and then 2335 01:54:01,240 --> 01:54:04,600 making twice or more what they were making in the civil service 2336 01:54:04,600 --> 01:54:07,160 as contractors now. So they're, they're racking in 2337 01:54:07,240 --> 01:54:11,760 half $1,000,000 a year or more off the US taxpayers. 2338 01:54:11,760 --> 01:54:14,760 So you have like 9 of the wealthiest counties in the 2339 01:54:14,760 --> 01:54:17,520 United States are surrounding the DC area there. 2340 01:54:17,520 --> 01:54:19,360 It's just, there's no industry here. 2341 01:54:19,360 --> 01:54:21,280 It's just just central government. 2342 01:54:21,640 --> 01:54:24,040 You can't take that away from. They'll fight to the death to 2343 01:54:24,040 --> 01:54:25,800 keep that because that's their whole existence. 2344 01:54:25,800 --> 01:54:28,000 It's. The self licking ice cream cone, 2345 01:54:28,000 --> 01:54:29,600 I said that to someone, they'd never heard it before the other 2346 01:54:29,600 --> 01:54:30,840 day and they were like, oh, I'm taking that. 2347 01:54:30,840 --> 01:54:33,800 I'm like that's been taken. That's a pretty well established 2348 01:54:33,800 --> 01:54:36,200 metaphor for people who ever been around the Beltway. 2349 01:54:37,640 --> 01:54:39,480 Mike, I appreciate you spending all the time kind of chatting 2350 01:54:39,480 --> 01:54:40,800 with us. I think people are educated and 2351 01:54:40,800 --> 01:54:42,400 they're probably going to be more interested to tell them 2352 01:54:42,400 --> 01:54:44,200 where they can find the the book and where they can find your hot 2353 01:54:44,200 --> 01:54:46,920 takes on social, which are also some of my favorites. 2354 01:54:47,640 --> 01:54:50,320 So the book is Big Intel. You can get it on Amazon, Barnes 2355 01:54:50,320 --> 01:54:52,240 and Noble, anywhere else. It's on Audible. 2356 01:54:52,560 --> 01:54:54,960 So there's audio versions and Kindle versions and everything 2357 01:54:54,960 --> 01:54:56,680 else. Big Intel. 2358 01:54:56,680 --> 01:55:00,440 And then our website issecurefreedom.org at the 2359 01:55:00,440 --> 01:55:04,040 Center for Security Policy, and I'm on Twitter at J Michael 2360 01:55:04,040 --> 01:55:06,480 Waller. And we'll have all those links 2361 01:55:06,480 --> 01:55:08,640 in the show description so folks, you guys can click 2362 01:55:08,640 --> 01:55:10,640 through if you're hearing it and you're thinking I need to see 2363 01:55:10,640 --> 01:55:12,720 more of it. Some of your Twitter takes are 2364 01:55:12,720 --> 01:55:15,240 some of my favorites, too. They are not polite and they are 2365 01:55:15,240 --> 01:55:17,040 not pulling punches. So I appreciate that and I 2366 01:55:17,040 --> 01:55:18,960 appreciate the honesty. Thanks for spending the time 2367 01:55:18,960 --> 01:55:21,120 with us today, and I hope we do this again. 2368 01:55:21,480 --> 01:55:23,480 Maybe not the next book. That may take a little bit too 2369 01:55:23,480 --> 01:55:24,560 long. We may have to get you back on 2370 01:55:24,560 --> 01:55:26,160 sooner than that. That'll be fun. 2371 01:55:26,640 --> 01:55:27,520 All right. Appreciate it buddy. 2372 01:55:27,960 --> 01:55:34,080 See you. OK, you all, Big thank you to 2373 01:55:34,160 --> 01:55:37,600 our guest, Doctor Waller, for joining us and having this very 2374 01:55:37,600 --> 01:55:39,280 long conversation. I hope you guys enjoyed it. 2375 01:55:39,280 --> 01:55:41,360 I hope you learned something. I hope something walks away. 2376 01:55:41,960 --> 01:55:45,080 Things that I didn't know as well, especially that sort of 2377 01:55:45,080 --> 01:55:47,760 hot take on the idea that J Edgar Hooper was more 2378 01:55:47,760 --> 01:55:50,880 disciplined than today's director, Chris Ray. 2379 01:55:50,880 --> 01:55:54,760 That is a troubling thing to hear, and yet I'm fairly 2380 01:55:54,760 --> 01:55:57,920 confident he's correct. If you guys want to support our 2381 01:55:57,920 --> 01:56:00,440 show, you can also support our buddy Garretta Boyle over at the 2382 01:56:00,440 --> 01:56:03,080 merch store. This is the Dash Suspendables. 2383 01:56:03,080 --> 01:56:05,920 Again, the Dash Dispensables. Don't forget the dash The Dash 2384 01:56:05,920 --> 01:56:07,760 dispensables.com. Use the promo code Kyle. 2385 01:56:07,760 --> 01:56:09,360 Save 10% on any of the merch out there. 2386 01:56:09,520 --> 01:56:11,640 You guys got a number of different neat T-shirts today. 2387 01:56:11,640 --> 01:56:13,080 I'm wearing the suspendable or die. 2388 01:56:13,280 --> 01:56:16,200 You see that down on the bottom left hand side of the screen? 2389 01:56:16,400 --> 01:56:18,560 You guys can check out the pins. I'll probably be wearing one of 2390 01:56:18,560 --> 01:56:21,320 those as I fly. I tend to like to show them to 2391 01:56:21,320 --> 01:56:23,240 see TSA. They don't know what to do with 2392 01:56:23,240 --> 01:56:24,720 it. Yeah, they just make you take 2393 01:56:24,720 --> 01:56:27,120 off your jacket anyway. But check out the dash. 2394 01:56:27,120 --> 01:56:30,080 suspendables.com support the old Boyle family sweatshop. 2395 01:56:30,080 --> 01:56:32,400 Keep them moving. I know it's probably pretty 2396 01:56:32,400 --> 01:56:36,160 chilly up there in Wisconsin, and there's no reason for us not 2397 01:56:36,160 --> 01:56:39,200 to put them to work unless the lights go out, in which case you 2398 01:56:39,200 --> 01:56:41,280 can't run the printing press. The. 2399 01:56:41,280 --> 01:56:44,040 T-shirt press the dash, dependables.com, the merch store 2400 01:56:44,160 --> 01:56:46,080 really appreciate it, folks. Make sure you're supporting all 2401 01:56:46,080 --> 01:56:48,280 of our sponsors. If you want to check out the my 2402 01:56:48,280 --> 01:56:49,480 pillow, you can also use my pillow. 2403 01:56:49,560 --> 01:56:51,280 Our promo code is Kyle very easy. 2404 01:56:51,280 --> 01:56:53,440 You guys know how to get there. Mike Lindell got cancelled this 2405 01:56:53,440 --> 01:56:54,680 week, so it's probably a rough week. 2406 01:56:54,680 --> 01:56:56,800 If you were thinking about making a purchase from them, use 2407 01:56:56,800 --> 01:57:00,440 our promo code Kyle. You'll save just like any of the 2408 01:57:00,440 --> 01:57:02,920 others, except it'll support the Kyle Sarah can show and we do 2409 01:57:02,920 --> 01:57:06,160 appreciate that. All right folks, that's about it 2410 01:57:06,160 --> 01:57:07,760 for today. Let me go ahead and throw up a 2411 01:57:07,800 --> 01:57:10,520 five star review. Standby for one of those. 2412 01:57:10,520 --> 01:57:13,200 And there it is, our five star review of the day coming in from 2413 01:57:13,200 --> 01:57:16,880 Tactical Arms Corps. Joe says love it, five stars. 2414 01:57:16,880 --> 01:57:19,160 Kyle, I respect you and I appreciate your service and 2415 01:57:19,160 --> 01:57:21,440 sacrifice so much. Thank you for doing this amazing 2416 01:57:21,440 --> 01:57:24,760 show and keeping us informed and prepared concerning the crazy 2417 01:57:25,000 --> 01:57:27,920 closing in around us. Keep up the good work. 2418 01:57:28,200 --> 01:57:31,560 God bless you and your family. Well, God bless you, Joe. 2419 01:57:31,920 --> 01:57:34,400 I really appreciate that. Thanks for watching the show. 2420 01:57:34,600 --> 01:57:36,240 Thanks for listening on Apple, folks. 2421 01:57:36,240 --> 01:57:38,200 If you want to leave us a five star view and have yours read, 2422 01:57:38,200 --> 01:57:41,280 just do so on Apple. It is the link in the 2423 01:57:41,280 --> 01:57:44,240 description on Apple podcast. You can also find us on Spotify 2424 01:57:44,240 --> 01:57:46,440 on iHeartRadio, anywhere that you listen to podcasts, 2425 01:57:46,640 --> 01:57:48,880 including the spyware devices that you shouldn't have in your 2426 01:57:48,880 --> 01:57:51,880 kitchen, but you probably do. Go ahead and just say, hey, play 2427 01:57:51,880 --> 01:57:55,400 the Kyle Seraphin show and Alexa or Siri or whatever, these other 2428 01:57:55,400 --> 01:57:58,520 sort of crazy AI things that are spying on us. 2429 01:57:58,520 --> 01:58:01,760 They'll be able to pull that up and give it to you right away. 2430 01:58:02,080 --> 01:58:05,000 We'll see you. Again tomorrow with another 2431 01:58:05,000 --> 01:58:07,000 interesting interview, I'll be on the road. 2432 01:58:07,240 --> 01:58:10,000 You'll be listening to an interview with John Frankman, 2433 01:58:10,120 --> 01:58:14,160 former Green Beret and a patriot who said no thank you to the jab 2434 01:58:14,160 --> 01:58:16,240 as well. Another suspendable, no doubt. 2435 01:58:16,440 --> 01:58:18,520 So we appreciate you guys today. Have a great one. 2436 01:58:18,680 --> 01:58:19,920 And we'll see you again tomorrow. 2437 01:58:19,920 --> 01:58:21,320 God bless. You thanks for listening to the 2438 01:58:21,320 --> 01:58:25,560 Kyle Seraphin show, streamed live weekdays on rumble.com/kyle 2439 01:58:25,560 --> 01:58:27,840 Seraphin. Follow Kyle on Twitter, True 2440 01:58:27,840 --> 01:58:31,160 Social and Instagram at Kyle Seraphin.