Take a look behind the curtain with the real whistleblower in
American Patriot. Prepare to embrace the
uncomfortable truth, because this programme has no time for
comforting lies. Here is civil liberties
enthusiasm, Second Amendment defender and recovering FBI
agent Kyle Saraf. Hello my friends, and welcome to
the Kyle Serafin Show. Today is Thursday, November the
16th, and as the intro just said, that's my father reading
it. This show has no time for
comforting lies. Today is going to be probably a
little bit heavier than some of ours.
Yesterday we had a little bit of fun.
Today is going to be a serious topic with a serious person.
I don't always say that we have a special guest.
I think that's kind of silly that people always say that sort
of thing. We really do have a lovely
person to talk to. Going to be talking to Jerry
Perna in just a moment and we're going to be telling a story that
is should trouble you. Many of you are going to be at
least a cursory familiarity with what she's about.
You may have seen her in the new movie Police State.
We're gonna run the trailer for one more time so you guys get
kind of a a prep for it. Before we get into the
interview, I want to get all the sponsors and I want to say
thanks to all the people that support our show right up front
and right away. So we're going to do that right
now. If you guys don't mind.
We're going to front load it. Let's start talking about my
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That saves you 10%. What do they sell?
They sell soft sided and hard sided coolers.
They sell tumblers like the one I've got sitting on my desk
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Use my promo code. Kyle, KY Kelly gets 10% off.
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You're not a lifetime you're a patriot.
Get a patriot. Cooler.
Do that. Let's also talk about four
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Coms, devices, water filtration, all these kind of things.
The number four patriots.com/kyle,
fourpatriots.com/kyle. Let's do one more.
Let's think Michael and Dell, he's actually been really great.
Send us a check really recently. mypillow.com/kyle.
Kyle, at the end of it, mypillow.com/kyle.
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you can support our show with it and they do in fact send us
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Michael Dell's a good guy, one of those funny people in the
world who has really turned his life around and managed to do
something pretty great. I know a lot of you guys know
he's been persecuted and prosecuted by the FBI.
They came and stole his phones and got into it with him.
Go check out his pillows, Check out his towels, Check out what
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I am in the market, so Christmas is coming up.
Check it out. mypillow.com/kyle. Kyle.
There it is. OK, we've run it as far as we
want to go. Let's get deep into this thing.
Like I said, a very special person.
Jerry Purna, She's going to tell us her story.
I want to 1st. Just welcome you on.
Thanks for joining me. Jerry, I'm really glad to have
you on the show. Thank you for having me, Kyle.
Thanks for thanks for your patience.
Kind of waiting on us getting set up here.
I'm. I'm looking forward to hearing
this cause I think I have some questions that you might answer
in the way you answer some of the other questions.
But there's some specific things about the story that I want to
know. I've never heard him discuss
before. So we're going to dig deep.
We'll take as long as it takes and as much time as you want to
give us. First of all, it was really nice
seeing you the other day and Miralago with the police state
film. Tell us how you were approached
to go out on that and I'm going to get into who you are and some
of the story that got you involved as well.
Well, Dinesh and I met a couple of months after Matt after
Matt's ordeal, and I had told him, I said if you ever decide
to do a documentary on this, I would gladly participate or
contribute anything you need from me.
And lo and behold, Dinesh reached out to me in the spring
and asked me if I would be willing to participate.
And that was the spring. So that came together pretty
quickly. I guess I didn't know what the,
the prep time on that was. Let's we're going to roll the
trailer. We're going to have you watch
it. And I know this is emotional for
a lot of my my viewers. It's kind of emotional for me
and you because we both have different angles of this sort of
story, but it's definitely impacted our life, the
weaponization that's gone on. And then we're going to hear
about you, we're going to hear about Matthew and we're going to
hear about how that's changed dramatically.
I think probably the arc of your life as well.
And let's let's do that real quick trailer so people get a
taste of it, so they can see who you were in the movie, although
you look just the same, I think. We having.
All that. Chief Division Council and DOJ
have approved a no knock breach. We want the subject to be on
display doing the walk of shame, full visual impact.
Any questions? Are we becoming a police state?
Government told American citizens they couldn't go to
church on Sunday for the first time in my life and say to
myself, am I gonna get a knock at the door, FPR war come to the
door. Now the Patriot Act and FISA
were used against Donald. Trump These individuals have
commissioned the biggest propaganda play in U.S. history.
They don't go after the people that rigged the election.
They go after the people that want to find out what the hell
happens. We don't need to have a crime.
What we need is a person to look at and then we go find out what
crime you did. Our focus is shifting.
Our main priority as a Bureau is going to be domestic terrorism
really paints anybody who's right of.
Centre If you're a pro life, pro, family, Catholic, they
define you as radical. These are.
Anti government. Afraid of a religion?
Violent extremists and they must be dealt with.
We could do anything we want. It's really hard to watch that.
I want to start with who you are, Jerry, as a person.
Let's start back with that story.
And I know family is going to be part of that.
So tell people where you're from and where you grew up, if you
would. Well, I grew up in Pennsylvania,
a small steel town in western PA.
I was there most of my life, and about six years ago I moved to
Florida. I got tired of the politics in
Pennsylvania. I needed a change.
I needed a change of scenery. I needed sunshine and I moved to
Florida. My family still resides there.
Um, I travel up there less often than I used to and I am the aunt
of Matthew Perna. Now let's talk about family a
little bit because that's I think, so relevant to this
story. You you mentioned that your
nephew is Matthew Perna. We're going to talk his story as
we do it. I want to kind of get the
background of how your, your family works and maybe you could
talk about the the home that you grew up in and you know, are
you, was it a brother or sister that is the the father or the
the mother of Matthew that you're related to?
Just kind of that whole dynamic. I as I said, I grew up in a
steel town and my dad worked in a steel mill, just like most
people's fathers did up there. I had four older brothers and
the youngest, the only girl Italian family, very close.
Everybody is still very close to this day and we see each other
as much as we can. Both of my parents have passed
on, but my brothers and I have a great relationship.
We have a slew of nephews and nieces.
We were not raised in a wealthy home by any stretch.
We were all taught to be hard workers.
We had to work for everything we got.
All of us had jobs by the time we were 15 years old and my
brothers and all of their kids, I mean, we're instilled with the
same values. We went to church on Sunday.
We were raised Catholic and. No one in my family had ever
gotten in any trouble of any kind.
Everybody held good jobs and has done well in their life.
And what was your connection? What was your relationship like
with Matthew when he was growing up?
I've seen some videos of him in the movie.
I think they play some which are really pretty heart wrenching.
They look like my childhood. It looks like a lot of my
friends childhood kind of idyllic.
Maybe kind of talk about growing up around all those nieces and
nephews. Well, Matthew is the son of my
oldest brother. My oldest brother is 10 years
older than I am, and I was very close to his wife, Matt's mom.
She was the sister I never had. So I was around Matt quite often
and when he was growing up, probably more so than my other
nieces and nephews. Because of my relationship with
his mom was so close. Um, so Matt was just, he was
just this wonderful child and and so inquisitive, always
asking questions, always wanted to learn.
And he continued that throughout his life.
He he studied everything. He was very intelligent as a
child. He had this fascination with the
American flag at a very young age.
I don't know what it was, but every time he saw one, he would
point at it. If it was on television, he
would point it out. And he liked wearing red
clothes. Writing blue clothes.
And it's funny because most of his baby pictures, you'll see
him wearing red, white and blue often.
And he grew up loving this country.
And again, he was raised with the same values that his father
and I were raised with. Had a job at a very early age,
went on to college and and was just a very hard worker.
What kind of interest did he have when he was in high school
and in college? Kind of, you know, what was he
interested in? And you know, what kind of
things did you see him spending his time during those?
You know, I want to know what the people are behind the
headlines more than anything else.
Matt was Matt loved basketball. He was very tall.
He loved playing basketball. He never played it like on a
organised college team or anything.
He played it in high school. He loved music.
We were all raised with music in our house because my father
played piano and he taught all of us how to play piano.
And Matt's father excelled at it.
So much so that he got a degree in music and he instilled that
love of music into his kids. And Matt played piano as well as
saxophone. But he had this.
He had this itch to travel. Matt loved to to travel to other
places, and he did. He travelled the world and.
That was one of the things he loved the most.
He loved meeting other people from other cultures.
He loved learning about other cultures, trying their foods.
He was just a very diverse person.
Sounds like he probably was pretty open minded.
What kind of places did he go to?
What kind of experiences did he bring back and relate to you?
Matt liked to visit countries that most people didn't want to
visit. He visited Vietnam.
He went to India. He was in Peru, Thailand, South
Korea. He did make his way to Italy and
Poland. But when he went to a town he
didn't like staying in a in a five star hotel, he likes
staying amongst the locals. He would rent A room or
something like an Airbnb where it was not the the most
expensive one. He wanted to be where the locals
were. He wanted to get the true
experience. Everywhere he travelled and he
did just that. What year was Matthew born, you
know, or roughly within? Matthew says, see, 37, mid 80s,
eighties, mid 80s, OK. So he grew up and he's probably
was the age of my my younger brothers, sisters and things
like that. So I'm just trying to get people
to contact the America that he grew up in and maybe the America
that you grew up in. You can talk about that as well.
Because I think that we have a very different country,
especially after just watching that trailer for Police State.
Then then I grew up in and then I imagine you grew up in.
We came from different parts of the country.
Maybe talk about the the view of America.
He loved it. He wore the American flags.
I think I had some of those too, to be honest with you.
I'm curious about how that sort of evolved.
But what was America like when he was a kid in your in your
recollection? I was just having this
conversation with somebody the other day and they were saying
don't you wish we can go back to the 80s?
I do wish we can go back to the 80s, because the 80s was born
before the Internet and social media started.
Life was much simpler than. Life was easier than and less
stressful. I think that with the
development of social media and the Internet.
It has definitely changed the course for the entire world, not
just America, but it is made growing up much more difficult
and I'm thankful that I grew up at a time where we didn't have
that social bullying and social media bullying and things of
that nature and Matt grew up during that time as well.
Matt had a. He had a very soft heart when it
came to people and I think part of this is because Matt's aunt
on his mother's side was severely mentally handicapped
severely. And Matt grew up with this aunt
and her name was Linda, her his aunt Linda, knowing that Aunt
Linda had disabilities and. He was very close to her and he
was very compassionate and I think that that moulded Matt in
many ways. And it it made him a much.
More loving, kind person. I believe that had an impact on
him. Was he an only child?
Did he have siblings? Yes, younger brother who likes
to keep his life private. That makes sense to me.
I wish some of us could keep our lives private.
I know that's not an option anymore.
There is something about that analogue childhood.
It's it's so interesting. My wife and I continue to have
these conversations about wouldn't it be nice to be able
to go back before anti social media, before all this?
You know, followers and and tracking what you're up to and
before all the comments sections and all the other things used to
be that you have to say something to somebody's face.
And it turns out most people have probably not said very many
nasty things to your face that they would say on on the
Internet, I have to imagine. At least that's my experience.
I would have to agree with that. There are your keyboard warriors
and they can be quite brutal. And yeah, talk about some of the
ugliness you've seen out there, cause I know you get it, I know
I get it. Everybody gets a different taste
of it, different segment of society.
Maybe kind of highlight some of the.
I do. I get a lot of that, and I get a
lot of anonymous email sent to me with words that are just so
hateful and so obscene I can't even repeat them out loud.
And I, quite frankly, AM. More disheartened by the amount
of hate in our world than anything else.
Because, I mean, we're talking about I'm the survivor of a
family member who's gone, and yet you need, you feel the need
to. Put salt in my wounds.
I don't understand the level of hate that we have reached and I
don't know, maybe it is because they are keyboard warriors who
can say whatever they feel like without being exposed as to who
they are. But I I just, I wish we could go
back to a time when that wasn't possible.
Yeah. I wonder why there's so much.
I think it's sort of impotent rage.
I just wonder if you have any reflection on it.
Because I I continually think about this.
Why? Why are they so?
Why are people so angry? They didn't know you.
They didn't know Matthew. He didn't affect their lives in
any meaningful way. Like they never came across him.
How is it that these people are so furious?
It seems that they would send some of the most nasty bile to
someone they've never met. Like what?
What would? What would make that happen?
To be honest with you, I'm gonna just say it.
I think. I think some of them are
soulless. I really do.
We have reached a point where God is not important in many
lives of many people. Many people are being raised
without God in their life at all.
You have a generation of children that don't know why we
celebrate Christmas. And I think that a lot of this
is is the reason people are the way they are.
They have No Fear of God because they don't believe in Him
anyway. So I think, I think that they
don't feel that there will be any repercussions for their
actions and they feel that because they're doing them
anonymously that they don't, they aren't as impactful.
On themselves are they though. I don't know.
I think they are. I think they're going to pay a
price someday. They're going to be surprised.
You mentioned growing up in a Catholic family.
I have the same experience. You mentioned people not having
God in their life, which I think I I see that as well.
I think you're correct in that analysis.
Did Matthew have a faith that he practised and and if So, what
was that like? Yes, we were all, like I said,
we were all raised in a Catholic upbringing.
But Matt, like myself, we we left the Catholic religion.
We just weren't in agreement with a lot of the rituals and
things that take place and the cover ups within the Catholic
Church we became quite disgusted with.
So Matt was. Born again Christian, as am I,
and we went to non denominational churches, but we
were raised to go to church on Sunday, You know, we were raised
with values. We were raised to pray before we
ate. And Matt carried that throughout
his life. And he had a Bible that I don't
think there's one page in Matt's Bible that isn't written on.
He put notations on every page. I don't know how many times Matt
bread through the Bible. But I know it was several times.
And he he had a close walk with God.
Let's talk about how the he was travelling.
He got out of college. What did he do for work when he
got out of college? He took a regular nine to five
job in Toms River, NJ, working for a company and it was an
office job and I just, I knew. It was not something Matt wanted
to do. Matt was a free spirit.
He didn't belong in an office, but nonetheless he stayed with
this company for a couple of years and they had an opening in
their office in Pittsburgh and he decided to take the office
job in Pittsburgh and he moved back that way.
This way he was closer to family and he worked there for a little
while and there were going to be some cut offs, some layoffs in
the job, in the in the company. And Matt had befriended a black
gentleman that worked in the warehouse at the company.
And when it was announced that there were gonna be layoffs, he
found out that this this person was going to lose his job.
And Matt just did not like working for a nine to five type
of job. He did not like that atmosphere.
It wasn't him. And he went to his boss and he
said if you could. Get rid of me, but keep the guy
in the warehouse. Would you do it?
And he says, well, we we just have to make cutbacks, you know,
and. Wherever we make them, you know
it doesn't, it doesn't matter as long as we show that we've cut
back some, some expenses. So, Matt?
Took the firing and the guy in the warehouse got to keep his
job. Wow.
And I I was. I knew that from that point Matt
was going to do great things because now he was able to
spread his wings. And he got involved in in some
different holistic type products and he started marketing those
and he excelled in it. But.
Prior to really taking off in that, he had heard about this
opportunity to teach English in a foreign country.
And he he applied and he went to work in Thailand, and he taught
English in Thailand for a year to elementary school children.
And he loved it. He loved it.
And when that contract was over, he applied for another.
And he worked in South Korea doing the same thing.
And Matt would use his weekends to explore the country or or
breaks, to go to neighbouring countries and learn the culture,
learn the language. He knew several languages,
travelling as much as he did. He wanted to go to Italy to meet
our family in Italy, so he took a course in in Italian.
And he was speaking fluent Italian, so when he went to
Italy he could speak to our family.
He was just brilliant. And so when he was in Korea
teaching it, we got news that his mom had gotten leukaemia.
And I texted him and I told him, I said, Matt, I think you need
to come home. So Matt came home and he dove
back into his holistic medicinal cures.
And he wanted to help his mom get through this.
And he researched everything and he found out about alkaline
water. Alkaline water being health the
the health benefits of alkaline water, especially to someone
with cancer. And Matt purchased this congin
water filtration machine for his mom and he had her drinking this
water. Well, this led to other things.
Matt found out the benefits of drinking alkaline water and he
started selling the machines himself.
Well, they were expensive and not everybody could afford one.
But he knew there were people that could benefit from drinking
this alkaline water. So he calls me one day, he says.
Aunt Jerry, he says I need to get these BPA free containers
for water. And he said, have you seen any
anywhere? So I'm telling him, well let me
look when I'm out, I'll make sure I'll let you know.
So everywhere I went, if I saw them, I would tell them about
them. And I finally said, Matt, what
are you doing with all these containers?
He said, well, there's people that can benefit from this
water, but they can't afford the machine.
So I'm using my machine and I'm filling up these containers and
I'm delivering the water to their house.
I said you're selling water, he said.
No, Aunt Jerry, I'm just giving it to them.
They can use it. They need this water.
It's going to help them. That's the type of person he
was. And he was into CBD oil.
He sold for hemp works. And I mean he did quite well.
He did not believe in the modern medicines that the
pharmaceutical companies push. He did not believe in vaccines.
He did not believe in chemotherapy as much as he
wanted his mom to avoid that route, she didn't.
And he watched her deteriorate. He watched her body just
deteriorate, but he did his best.
He did to help her as much as he could to get through it.
And Matt never had health insurance.
He never believed that he would go to a hospital or a doctor for
anything and he never did. He was quite healthy.
Yeah, but that's, you know. And I think that's the question
so many people, myself included, I, I come from this sort of
investigator background where I'm always like what's the story
there? And when I heard kind of Brandon
Straka, who will talk about in a little bit and was sitting on a
panel with you in front of some members of Congress.
He answered it very briefly for me what it was.
And so I kind of knew where that would go.
But I think a lot of people would look, they look, why is
this aunt the one who's out there speaking on his behalf?
And that's the story. The story is that his mother
passed away and and she was your dear friend.
It sounds like she was very close.
Like I said, she was a sister I never had.
She had come through a bone marrow transplant.
She was doing great. She was down to only having to
go in to have her blood work done every two weeks just to
check her levels. It was on a Sunday.
I was on the couch with her watching movies at her house and
she told me she had a doctor's appointment on Tuesday.
No, Monday morning. And she went and it was supposed
to be an ice storm that day. And they got a late start and
the appointment was in Pittsburgh.
So they told my brother, you know what, just leave her here
overnight because we don't want you driving home in this ice
form later on and pick her up in the morning.
So my brother went home in the morning.
He called down to tell his wife that he was on his way to get
her and she didn't answer the phone in her room.
And he called again and the doctor answered the phone and he
told my brother, he said I'm sorry we're we're having some
issues here. Your wife is having trouble
breathing. We'll talk more when you get
here. And he hung up on him.
So my brother and Matt and Matt's brother, they jumped in
the car. They drove down to Pittsburgh
and he calls me on the phone and he, I was working at my shop and
he says we have a problem. I said what's going on?
He said they want to put her on a ventilator.
I said a ventilator. What are you talking about?
I was just watching TV with her on your couch yesterday.
What's going on? And um, they thought she had
contacted, contacted him. Pneumonia, I said.
This is impossible, and I said, what do you need me to do?
He said I need you here with me. So me and two of my brothers
jumped in the car in the middle of an ice storm that came later
that day. And we drove to Pittsburgh and
we walked in and there was my sister in law laying on a bed
with 15 tubes coming out of her, including a ventilator.
My brother was just sobbing. My my nephews are sitting on the
floor, just didn't know what to do.
And here we later found out that she had been given bad blood.
There was a bacteria in the blood.
It gave her a blood infection and she died that night.
Wow. And we couldn't believe it.
And everything that Matt had felt about the Pharmaceutical
industry and the hospitals and the doctors came true.
It was true. And he blamed them completely
for his mom's death. Yeah, I can.
Imagine that there's so many instances of medical
malpractice, malfeasance and mistakes that go on in this
country and I think a lot of people don't realise how many
they are. But your story is one of of of
500 + 1000. I think if if the numbers are
correct, I mean it's one of the single biggest causes of death,
is just accidental bad treatment in traditional, what we call
traditional medicine now, but it's really just western
medicine. I think a lot of people are
starting to open their eyes up to that.
What year did this happen? If you don't mind me asking,
that was eight years ago. Nine years ago.
OK, Yeah. And and I wanted to to dive back
in you when when you said that Matthew was overseas and he was
teaching English which sounds like a wonderful experience for
somebody to to be involved in. Were you in contact with him
when he was overseas? Would he call you and do
Facetimes or or Skype or any of those things?
We would do texting and we kept in touch on social media, on
Facebook, and Matt sent postcards.
Matt sent in his lifetime, thousands of postcards.
And I don't mean a type of postcard where you get and you
say, oh, having a great time, wish you were here.
No, he sent beautifully written postcards to give you that
feeling, like you were there with him, experiencing the
things he was experiencing. He belonged to some kind of an
online postcard club where you were given four names a week to
send a postcard, and in turn your name was given to 4
strangers somewhere in the world and you would receive postcards.
So this got Matt on this postcard kick, and he sent
postcards to everybody he knew. And I'm still getting people
sending me pictures of the postcards that they had received
from that at one time or another.
That's a really special. Gift to be able to still have.
Are. This is not someone who.
Fits into the profile that most people would think of as the
we're hearing over and over the dehumanising language towards
people who supported President Trump the maggots and people are
saying things like MAGA extremists and all these ugly
things. I I wanted to dig into the story
because I know there was so much more there.
I know what a kind person you are since we've met a couple
times in person and how much this moved you.
So I appreciate you sharing, sharing some of that.
Did his how did his mother's death affect his outlook on
life? You you just said that he didn't
like the what happened in the hospital system, but I'm curious
if that changed his positivity at all.
It changed a lot of things for him.
His father has Parkinson's and you know, of course he he had
just lost his wife. It was, it was devastating.
And Matt had decided at that point that he was going to stay
close to home. He wasn't going to work abroad
anymore. It changed the entire course of
the rest of his life. He didn't want his father to be
by himself because his brother already worked in another part
of the country. And you know, he didn't expect
him to give up his job and move back to this decrepit steel
town, former steel town. So Matt decided he would stay
where he was at and he would somehow try to expand his
business. And he did.
Like I said, he did quite well at it.
But he wanted to be there for his dad, and he was.
And he's not the typical January 6th story that the media likes
to portray. He was the exact opposite.
He wasn't a political person. He did manage to get a
networking group started in this small town.
You have to understand this town is very depressed.
Businesses have shut down empty buildings everywhere.
Since the steel industry is no longer their primary source of
income, there really isn't a lot to keep anybody there.
The kids graduating high school and going off to college don't
come back to live there. So it was kind of it was kind of
sad that Matt had to go back and live in this town, but he just
felt like he needed to be there for his dad.
And he was up until, of course, January 6.
Yep, as we're. Hearing the story, I'm I'm
curious, was there any romantic involvement in his life over the
that time that you could speak about?
He did. He Matt had different
girlfriends. He had a girlfriend in Korea
that she wanted to get married a little too, too, too more.
Much more than he did. So that one didn't work out.
And then he had a girlfriend in Pennsylvania, but up until
January 6 and then on when all of that went down, she broke up
with him and he and he was quite devastated by that.
She was definitely not on the same playing field as he was
politically. And it was, it caused a clash in
the relationship. And then he met another girl
online in Florida, actually. And they were, they were seeing
each other. Often, you know, through through
travelling back and forth, but he he wanted to get January 6th
and this mess out of the out of the way before he could fully
commit to her. I think so.
Many people that dealt with that and have it hanging over their
head, even to this day, it's like their life has been put on
pause and it didn't really change from January 7th, 2021.
It's just been a perpetual waiting cycle.
Like they can't make big decisions.
They don't want to buy houses, you know, they don't want to
move families because God knows what's going to happen next.
I think that's pretty common. Exactly you.
Said girlfriend broke up with him over the January 6th thing.
You're in this. We're similar age bracket at
least. I remember some a lot of things.
I don't remember people getting into relationships and having
politics come between them. In my childhood in the 80s and
the 90s, I don't remember that being a thing.
Is that is that something that's new to this country?
I think it is. I think that people are choosing
their partners based on their political beliefs, to be honest
with you, because at the end of the day, you got to live with
this person. And if you're not on the same
page politically, and you know, I hate to use the word politics,
Kyle, because I was just saying this to somebody else, like the
state of our country right now. It's a sad state of affairs.
And when you start talking about things with people and you start
explaining to them your feelings on what's happening and they put
up that, oh, I, I, I don't like to talk about politics.
We are talking about politics. We are talking about the future
of our country. We are talking about the the
next generation of children and. We're not talking politics.
These are things that need to be discussed.
So if you're with a partner who is on a totally different page
than you, I really don't see how it's going to work.
I really don't. I wonder if we're.
Not talking politics at all if we're just talking about agreed
values. Like we don't agree what America
means anymore. Exactly.
It's not politics. It's not a Republican Democrat
thing anymore and I think people need to realise that and start
waking up that we need to save our country, politics aside.
I have a a. Video coming out soon.
It's kind of like one of these little animated Prager U type
things and they've done it with one of my sponsors.
And and the fact of the matter is, it's my belief that
progressive lesbianism is in fact more like a religion than
it is a political ideology. And so we're not arguing about,
you know, policy. We're arguing about theology and
whether or not the government should be God and make these
decisions and whether or not, you know, God should be God,
which I think is a conservative position at this point.
And so it's it's a theological debate.
It's not a political discussion in many ways.
I think you kind of landed on there, and I agree.
It's hard to see it happen in. This country though, too, it's
really hard to see it since we saw it both ways.
I think younger people don't know that.
No, I agree. And you know, we talked about
this before, and I'm not an overly religious person by any
stretch, but when you take God out of the equation, as they
have, they removed God from schools, They removed God from
government buildings. You know, they took out the the,
the moment of prayer in the morning when you removed that.
And you have a generation of kids growing up without it.
They don't have the morals that we had growing up.
They don't and their belief system is so different from
mine. I I am floored sometimes when I
listen to what they believe. But I I have to say it's because
they didn't have God in their lives and and they have no moral
compass anymore. Remember that movie?
There was a movie called As Good As It Gets.
It had Jack Nicholson in it, yes, and at 1:00.
Point there's this great Who is who's the female lead in there?
Is it? Is it Helen Hunt?
Helen Hunt is in there. And so he's getting in the car,
and he's driving with the kind of effeminate guy Chambers named
Brad Kinnear, maybe. Or is his name Greg Greg
Kinnear? He's got the dog and he's going
to drive them in the convertible, whatever.
And at some point someone says, you know whatever his characters
name is. How do you write women so well?
Like you're such a great. Writer How do you write women so
well? And he has that iconic
fantastic, either late 80s or early 90s.
Nine, he said. Well, I think of a man and I
take away reason and accountability and it just
punches you like right in the gut.
In my experience, that's actually not how you don't take
away women. Women's reason and
accountability, that's not what women are.
But it is what leftists seem to be right now that you take away
reason because they don't seem to make sense to themselves.
And accountability is that really big piece.
And maybe that's why people send such vitriol.
They're not. They don't think they're going
to ever account for it, and that's God.
By the way, like God equals accountability at some point for
people? Exactly, exactly.
I agree with that completely. And and you see that they're
coming out of school and and I'm sorry to use the word dumb, but
I just watched a video last night.
Most of them don't know the 50 states.
Most of them don't know the first thing about government.
They don't know. The Capitals, they don't know.
Really. I mean, they don't know how to
tell time if it's not a a digital clock, and I'm wondering
what are you don't know how recursive They certainly
couldn't. Balance a check.
But no, they couldn't. What are they learning in
school? But boy, do they know the names
of all the Kardashians. I mean, we are doomed.
If this is the next generation, we are doomed.
I was reading somewhere where the number one career that high
schoolers are aspiring to have is a social media influencer.
This is this. Close my mind, You got AI is
eliminating so much. What are these kids going to do?
Live with their parents the rest of their lives?
Make TikTok videos. We we literally.
So we got Ryan Matta, who's producing the show, and Ryan and
I have had this conversation multiple times offline.
Ryan, you remember what the percentages are of what kids are
saying. They want to be social media
people. It was some horrible number.
Yeah, it's 75% of children want to be a Youtubers when they grow
up. It's it's not all it's cracked.
Up to be folks, and not everybody has the ability to do
it. Like not everybody wants to see
you get punched in the nuts over and over again.
Jackass was a big thing when I was in high school and I
remember thinking that was dumb, but I guess there's a segment of
it where we're moving more towards Mike Judge's idiocracy
than we are towards some sort of like, future.
It's a dystopia, but it's dumb. It's a sad dystopia.
Yes, it is. So we we touched on politics a
little bit. Sorry, I got a little
commentary, but I feel like it's always worth kind of just touch
on the the broader cultural impact of it.
Matthew was not a cookie cutter, quote unquote, MAGA person and I
think the way that you've described his life, he's kind of
an interesting and unique flower in the world.
There's not a lot of people that are like that.
We don't know a lot of people. Most people probably don't know
someone who's lived in multiple countries and spoke in multiple
languages and had jobs overseas and all that.
That's that's unique. But a lot of people do have that
impact. Tragedy.
You said he came back home. He's in PA What were his
political leanings? Why did he get activated into
politics at all? And where did he start with
that? To be honest with you Matt, you
know like I say it was never really political.
But when Bernie Sanders came on the scene, Matt took a liking to
him and we would go back and forth about Bernie Sanders.
And I think one of the things was you know that Bernie was
supportive of this is college, you know being free for
everybody or. And and Matt who loved to learn
and wanted to get other degrees just did not want to take on the
expense that it that it would incur to get another degree in
something. And I think he leaned towards a
lot of the things that Bernie Sanders supported, and he took a
lot of Flack for that because we just thought Bernie was crazy.
And then when President Trump came on the scene and he had
that very first debate with Hillary Clinton and just the way
that that President Trump speaks and his.
No holds barred and saying the things that everybody wants to
hear. Matt was Matt was enamoured with
him and he read his book and he he started showing support for
President Trump at that point and he he wanted him to win and
when he won that presidency when he won that election Matt was
just elated and Matt Matt businesses were doing fantastic
during President Trump's four years and and he was a huge fan
he was a huge supporter he was exactly what this country needed
in Matt's eyes and and he made no bones about wearing his make
America great again hat and supporting him as much as he
could on his social media sites. But he wasn't like constantly,
constantly preaching politics or or anything about Trump on his
Facebook, if you were to see mass Facebook.
It it really was about love and acceptance and and doing the
right thing and living your life in a way that you you should be
proud of or your parents would be proud of.
It was not all about politics with him.
He he just, he loved everybody too.
And even though Matt was a Trump supporter he was very open to
people who were Democrat and other and and people of other
religions and other you know races.
He had no. He had not one ounce of racism
in him, which is ironic because they think everybody from
January 6 was racist. Yeah, we'll have to break.
Into that because I don't understand where that narrative
came from and and I lived in DC at the time that January 6th
happened. I'm curious after that first
debate because because going from Bernie to going to Donald
Trump sounds like a political 180.
It sounds like a kick flip like you do on a on a skateboard
where you turn around go the opposite direction.
I think that's what a kick flip is.
Sorry, I grew up in the 80s, but I didn't skateboard.
My my curiosity is, did you guys have any discussions about that?
Did you feel like he was coming back to the fold, or did he tell
you what it was that really impacted him in that first
debate that you just mention? He never really said.
What? What it was like, the main
thing. But I will say this, as I've
said about Matt, he researched everything.
I mean everything. So when I say he dove into
Donald Trump's life, I'm sure he went way back back, way back
further than anybody else would. He researched everything about a
person before he would throw any support behind him.
So. I think Matt just dug deep and
it was a big joke. I said, oh, finally you've seen
the light. And and when I would say that,
it's kind of funny because at this point he knew more about
President Trump than I did, you know, because I know he
researched him. Do you think there's a a common
vein of people that dealt with sort of the populism, the the
popularity that Bernie had, which is that he was saying
things that resonated with a large group of people And the
same way that because he's more, I mean Bernie for all he is, I
think he's kind of a kook. But I know that he's charismatic
to people that want to hear that kind of messaging.
And I think Trump sort of has that same quality, right.
I mean it's bombastic. It's in your face, non
apologetic, offend certain. People, Is that kind of the lure
you think? I think.
So I think the fact that Donald Trump was not a politician was
one of the main things that attracted Matt to him because he
was a businessman, multi billionaire, obviously didn't
need to line his pockets while while being in the presidency
and that that was attractive to Matt.
Matt was never about money. He was never.
Becoming a. Millionaire was not mass goal.
And when I tell you he could have become a millionaire,
that's not an exaggeration. Matt gave away more than he
kept. He helped people all the time.
And Kyle, we are still healing hearing stories from people that
Matt helped and not like just on the down low.
He didn't, he didn't scream it from the the rooftops that he
helped somebody. We're finding out these stories
now and it really blows me away. He was just such a generous,
kind person. Again, not.
Not what you'd expect from a January 6th Insurrectionist.
What do you think about those stories coming out at the same
time as people are sending you online vitriol and then people
in person kind of telling you the opposite?
I wish. They could have known Matt.
I wish they could have known what we know.
I wish they could have seen that he added something to this
world. He added something that's that
this world just so desperately needs.
And we need more mats in this world.
We do. And um.
I don't know if they're. Just incapable of listening to
reason. I've reached the point where I'm
not here to convince anybody of anything.
It's too exhausting. We first you and I first met in
person in Houston when they were filming the police state film.
I know we had a brief interaction in the hallway and
got a hug, and then you sat down.
I'm guessing your interview with Dinesh Dsouza was quite a bit
longer than what was shown in the movie.
Is that accurate? Yeah, they could.
You know, for times sake, they could only include so much of
it, of course. What were the high points?
Was there anything in that interview that you saw cut from
the film that you wish people would know about matter about
his story that didn't get sort of included in the final cut?
There was one point when we were talking and I think the they had
to change out the batteries and the camera or something.
And Dinesh and I were talking and they put the batteries back
in and we were still continuing our conversation.
And I did hear one of them say roll it.
They wanted to catch it on camera and it was something that
I had said to Dinesh. And I, and I truly believe this,
I mean this with all of my heart when I tell you this.
Matt gave. So much to this world.
He was such. A positive force.
In this world. And was so.
Much better than me in so many ways.
He had so much more to offer than I ever could.
He had a heart for people that I simply don't have.
If I could. Trade places with him right now
I would. Because this world needs him
more than it needs me. I mean that Kyle.
That's how strongly I feel about the loss of of Matt.
He was much more. Needed in this world than I ever
will be. And I feel sad.
That so many people never got to meet him.
There's a I think a lot of people kind of have that
experience that some of these really Beautiful Creatures that
exist in the world exist for too short a time.
And we probably all have one example or another in our lives
and it doesn't seem fair, doesn't seem just we don't have
to understand it. That's that's the only upside to
a, to a faith in God is that you don't have to know what the plan
is. There is a plan.
You'll figure it out later or maybe you won't find it out
until after you die. But that's kind of what we
believe is Christians, which is the solace.
And I don't think that maybe that's why they're so angry on
the left. They don't have that.
They they can at least lean on
it. I I wonder if you'll talk about
the circumstances. First of all, what happened
where he was out on January 6th? The the details of his case.
A lot of these things, they're not all the same.
Everybody had a unique experience.
Just like if you go to a protest and there's 500,000 people,
there's 500,000 stories. You just see a big crowd.
Matthew was one person in a crowd.
Can you tell the story about what happened on January 6th,
2021 and we'll move forward with how that changes the the rest of
his life? He.
Went to January 6 with some friends and he thought he
thought like it was going to be a day of celebration and he
wanted to be part of it. He had been to several Trump
rallies prior to that and just expected it to be pretty much
like like any of the other rallies he had gone to.
But in this case, he was hoping that Mike Pence was not going to
certify the election and. You know, he was going to be
celebrating in the street with all these other people who
believe the same as he did that the election was stolen.
And it didn't happen that way. And they he went into the
capital through an open door. He was in a group of people
pushing from behind. And there were police in there,
but they pretty much stepped to the side and he walked through
and he was filming with his phone for Facebook Live.
He was in there for 14 minutes. He didn't touch anything, he
didn't break anything. He didn't hurt anyone.
And he walked out. He went back to his hotel room.
He did another Facebook video that talked about the day.
That video is actually on my website.
You could watch it. And Max demeanour in the video
is very calm and very cool. And.
I mean, it wasn't like he was somebody who had just come from
this, this insurrection and he was pumped up and angry.
That wasn't it at all. He was very calm and he was
talking about the day. And, he said in the video, don't
worry, this isn't over yet. Um.
Mike Pence did prove himself to be a traitor, But don't worry,
it's not over. And that was all he said in it.
About a week. Later, I was sitting on my
couch. And I was on Facebook.
And somebody had posted a link that there were people from
January 6 whose pictures were on the FBI website.
So I clicked on the link and I was scrolling through the
pictures. And I came.
Across Matt's picture on the website.
And I I just. Oh my gosh.
Dread just came over me. And I called one of my brothers
up in Pennsylvania. I said we have a problem.
That's picture is on the FBI website for January 6.
He went to Matt's house at 6:00 that morning, and Matt had
already known about it. And Matt called a former police
officer who was retired and asked him what to do.
And he said you should call the FBI office in Newcastle,
Pennsylvania, and tell them who you are.
So at 9:00 that morning, Matt called the FBI office and told
him who he was, and they were going to send a couple of agents
out the next day to talk to him. And that's what they did.
They came out to my. Brother's house and they
interviewed Matt for a little over an hour.
And he thought it was a misunderstanding.
He thought, let me just tell these guys what happened.
I didn't break anything. I didn't see any signs.
You know, by the time Matt was there, there were no barriers
around the Capitol, so he didn't see a barrier that he was
crossing. And he thought that he would
tell them what happened and that would that would be the end of
it. But there was something in my
heart that told me that was not the end of it.
So I booked the plane ticket to fly home.
I said we need to get you an attorney.
And we asked several people that.
About about a criminal attorney and we were given the name of
this guy in Ohio. And we had a meeting with him.
And when we pulled up to his his office, there was a Biden sign.
In the yard in front of his office.
And I said, Matt, I don't, I don't like those sounds of this.
He said let's hear him out first.
Let's let's go hear him out. I don't like the looks of it.
I I I really have a bad feeling. He said no, no, Aunt Jerry,
let's give him, let's give him a fair chance.
As I said, Matt just did not judge people based on their
political beliefs or anything. So we walked in there and Matt
liked him. He was a very gruff person, but
he had 52 years of criminal justice experience.
And he kind of blew it off. He said This is no big deal.
These are, these are misdemeanours because that's
what they were going to charge them with, were misdemeanours,
you know, parading, trespassing. He said this is a.
Slap on the wrist. Well.
It was later, about a week later, they slapped 220 of these
same J6 people with the felony charge.
But let me backtrack. The FBI showed up a second time
and they arrested Matt at his house with the four
misdemeanours. They took him.
Into the Newcastle office. And they.
Kept them for three hours and they released him.
And. It was like I said a week later
they came back with the felony charge but he was never taken
into custody at that point. Let let me dig into something
just a little bit because I think it's going to be point for
the audience. We had my friend Garrido Boyle
on who sits and has the same sort of experience with me deep
and abiding distrust right now for the FBI, which I'm sure you
have a a similar one. And we discussed that feeling of
dread. You you you named it dread.
Can you tell people what that felt like in your.
Just describe the feeling of what it is to have that
sensation. Well, you know, as I.
Said. I have several nephews and
nieces and brothers and none of us have ever had any trouble
with the police at all. I mean, no arrests of any kind.
To see my nephew's picture on an FBI website.
Was like. A feeling of fear that I have
never known before. I.
I I just. It gave me a a very bad feeling
like this is not going to end well and the fact that he was on
there with dozens and dozens of other pictures.
I It just came to me like at that point, like why do they
have all these photographs of these people?
There is something more to this. This is not just some random
picture of Matt at the Capitol. This is planned.
And. I knew that because of that.
This was not going to be over. This was not going to be a slap
on the wrist. This was not going to have a
good outcome. And they they came in.
First of all. It's it's worth people
understanding too. The FBI came in, did the arrest
over misdemeanours, right? And they did a process.
Took him to the Either field office.
The resident agency office did a processing.
He was out a couple hours later, Yes.
And and I will use this as a moment to advocate on behalf of
people for their own safety, because I've had private
conversations with my friends who feel like this could be a
reality for them. They're like, I'm not going to
gaol. I'm not going to go sit in the
gulag. I'm shooting it out.
And the answer is like, don't do that, Don't, don't start there.
Like #1, those agents are not really your problem.
But moreover, the odds are as you're you're home by the end of
the day. My wife and I had this
conversation last night almost through tears for on her end.
It's like if they come for me and I don't know why they would,
but I just don't trust them. And I think they could.
I'm gonna go to gaol. It'll be fine.
I'll be or not won't be gaol. I'll go sit in a room with them
and I'll tell them to, you know, I want to call an attorney and
I'll and I'll come home. It'll be OK.
I'll be wearing nothing but tiny boxer shorts and a pair of
cowboy boots or something. I'll do something obnoxious
because they got to deal with that.
They got to deal with me having no shirt.
I'm not going to put on clothes for them.
But you come home and he came home.
You know, it wasn't over. Did did Matthew think that it
was over? Did he think like, hey, this is
all wrapped up, it's all going to be good.
Did he have that, that happy attitude or did he start feeling
your dread, Do you think? Well, like I said, when.
He was arrested and came home. At that point he still only had
the four misdemeanours and it was a few days later that they
added the felony and that's when it got it got very serious.
What was that conversation like, if you know?
Was it? Was it through his attorney?
Did they call him up? Was it?
How did they serve him with the idea that he was going to have?
The attorney, it was through the attorney and at that point I was
scrambling because different people would send me videos and
things of Matt that day because first of all, Facebook took took
his account away from him. They had taken the video that he
had posted at the Capitol. They took the video of him at
the hotel down. Um, so we didn't have access to
those at that time, but somebody had sent me video of Matt
outside of the Capitol. And it was 258 in the afternoon.
And I said, OK, so you were outside, you had not yet gone
into the building, and Congress had adjourned it 2:15.
So there's no way, there's no way they can, they can stick
this obstruction of Congress charge on you.
You weren't even in the building until like 45 minutes later.
And so I, you know, sent that over to his attorney and I said
here, this is, this is your answer right here to the
obstruction charge. He wasn't even in the building.
And his attorney said it's not going to matter.
I said, what do you mean socket of matter?
It's proof right there. He wasn't in the building and
they said they're not looking at that.
It's still they're still going to go with the obstruction
charge. And I couldn't understand that
for the life of me. I thought we had a piece of
evidence there that proved that he wasn't in the building during
a session of Congress. But it didn't matter.
And I knew, I knew at that point that nothing he said or did was
going to make a difference. Do you think Matthew knew that
too? Yes.
Because he got. He got.
Consumed with worry? I mean consumed.
I made several trips home during that year and.
It was just to. Be there to help with damage
control. And one of the times I went
home, we couldn't find Matt. He was not answering his phone,
he was not at his house. I was cooking dinner for my
whole family to come over and Matt was supposed to be there
and we couldn't find him. And we.
Were we were very worried about him that day?
It was in the middle of the winter.
And. He told us where he was at.
He texted that he was at Cooks Forest, PA.
And we later. Found out he was going to jump
off the bridge. But we were able to talk him
down and bring him home. And as hard.
As we tried, we would feel like we were getting somewhere with
him and he was showing signs of, you know, reason and that there
is hope. And then he would see something
on the news, another bunch of people arrested for January 6,
and it would bring him right back down again.
And. The postponements and delays
were constant in his case. He would get himself already,
and at the time it was COVID. So all of his meetings were
being Zoom. He would get himself already get
his. He'd have to go off to his
attorney's office where they would have a Zoom call with.
The court. With the DOJ and and Matt would
get his suit on and and get all prepared mentally for it and 1/2
hour before you get a phone call and say oh don't bother coming
out, Matt, they they postpone the hearing.
They cancelled it. It's three weeks.
From now. And then he would get ready, you
know, he would be brought down all again.
And then he would have to build himself up for the next meeting
and they would cancel it again. And they kept saying it was a
delay in discovery. And I said to Matt, I says Matt,
it's a delay in discovery because they haven't discovered
any evidence on you yet. I said, so the longer these get
postponed, the better it is for you, because it shows us that
they don't have the evidence that they, you know, that they
thought they did. I think they arrested you first
and then they were going to find the evidence.
And lo and behold, there wasn't much to find.
He wasn't affiliated with any Proud Boys or any any militia
groups of any kind. He had nothing on his phone or
laptop that incriminated him in any way.
It was clean. And but it just wasn't enough.
He had this looming fear over him.
People in the in the media were talking 20 years in prison for
obstruction of an official proceeding.
And Matt was worried. He was so worried.
And as time went on. He wouldn't go out of his.
House he wouldn't go in public. He gave us television away.
He didn't want to watch the news anymore.
He didn't want to see his picture on the nightly news
because the local media was brutal.
As well as the local newspaper. And if he did meet a friend, he
would. He would meet them an hour
outside of town for coffee because he didn't want to be
seen. He was so embarrassed.
And his dad's health was declining because of the stress
of the situation. And that was weighing on Matt
something awful. He had this tremendous amount of
guilt because he could see the physical effects on his dad.
And that was the last person he wanted to hurt.
And. Christmas was coming.
And just before Christmas, he said to his attorney.
I I need this to be over. What?
What can I do to make this over? And his attorney says you you
need to plead guilty. And Matt said.
Fine, then I'll plead guilty, he says.
Knowing that you're your dad's caregiver, knowing that you've
never been arrested, knowing that you turned yourself in, he
said. These are all weigh very
positively on your case and I feel that you'll get 6 to 12
months in a prison camp minimum security.
And so Matt agreed. And he pled guilty on December
21st. And he came down to Florida.
He drove down to see his girlfriend and then he was
coming to our home here and he came here on Christmas night.
He was here for four days with us and he cried the entire time
he was here. He was just broken.
He was so skinny. He no longer cared about eating
healthy. He was drinking doctor Peppers
like crazy, which that was something Matt hadn't had in
probably 15 years. He was on this like self
destructive path. He just didn't care.
But he was still going to turn it into a positive.
He told me he was going to help his fellow inmates, obtained
their GED and maybe work on another degree himself while he
was in. He had somebody lined up to take
care of his cat while he was going to be away.
And they were going to stay at his house and keep his house for
him so he wouldn't lose his rental home.
And he had it planned out. And then in February he was it
was the last week of February. His hearing was supposed to be
March the 3rd. What was the hearing?
For. It was first sentencing.
Got it. So he's.
Pled guilty, he said. Got it.
You broke me. I'm.
I'm on board. I'm going to do some time for
this. Like I'm giving you the pound of
flesh that you're asking for, for whatever that cost him,
which sounds like it was a lot. And then?
Then the question is, what is the government going to agree
to? Or what is the judge going to
actually assign based on the government recommendations?
Correct, exactly. And like I said, his attorney
kept saying 6 to 12 months and then.
In your head, you get yourself married to the idea.
It's like, OK, I could do a year, right?
Rough. So he was telling him you have a
sympathetic prosecutor and you have a sympathetic judge, so you
have two things in your favour. And so Matt was expecting this
to be the six to 12 month sentence.
But a week before his sentencing hearing, he called his attorney
and he said, I've got a really bad feeling about March the 3rd,
he says. You know, they scheduled it on
the day of my mother's death. That's the anniversary of her
death. And I don't believe that was a
coincidence. I believe they scheduled it on
that date on purpose. And his attorney says, well,
I've got, I've got bad news for you, Matt.
First of all, they've postponed the hearing to April Fool's Day.
And second of all, the prosecution is seeking to add a
sentencing enhancement of terrorism.
And if you know, they're going to present this at the at the
hearing and it basically would try to sway the judge into
giving Matt more time in gaol. And Matt called me on the phone.
It was in the afternoon and I didn't even couldn't even
understand him. He was stuttering so bad and
sobbing so hard. It was the most heartbreaking
conversation I had had with him up to this point.
And he said I must be guilty. And Jerry, they keep telling me
I'm guilty. Even his attorney had said,
Matt. Matt you're going to have to man
up and and and take take your your punishment on this and I
said he said that to you and I couldn't believe it He's only
attorney said that to him it's like everybody had just turned
against him. And Matt said, they're going to
put me away for a long time. I know they are.
I said, Matt, please, you have
faith in God. I said let's wait and see what
happens. Don't, don't jump the gun here.
We're going to, we're going to pray.
We're going to have faith like you've had faith God is not
going to see you fall. And he told me he was crying.
He says, Jerry and Jerry promised me, promise me you'll
get my dad to move to Florida. And I said, Matt, I'm doing my
best there, but I was not quite understanding where he was going
with it. And then he says, Aunt Jerry,
I'm so sorry you lost all of your friends because of me.
And I said, Matt, don't worry about them, They weren't
friends. They weren't friends.
He said no, he says I I lost your friends for you.
I embarrassed you and and caused you so much grief.
And I said, no, Matt, you're more important to me than
anybody else. And I said, I love you so much.
I said we're going to get through this.
He said, I love you too, Aunt Jerry.
And he hung up the phone. That was on a Monday.
That Friday at 6:00 in the evening, my phone rang and it
was one of my brothers and he said you need to come home.
He said. Matt just hanged himself in his
garage. It's awful.
It's truly awful and it's and even in that compassionate sort
of sensation that he had he was trying to organise all the
things to to be to be ready for. I mean he took it on himself.
It sounds like he took all the burden I've I've been to these
scenes. It's the it's the saddest thing.
You go there somebody who who's been spiralling and everyone can
see it. Nobody can see it until after
the fact. They go God, of course.
But nobody knows. You can never know what's going
on in someone's head and how desperate it must have felt.
And I'm sure it must have felt absolutely desperate because you
have the way of the federal government on.
His country had turned on him, the country he loved.
This government failed him. So many people failed him.
What about the? Prosecutor, I know you've had
some poignant moments. Did you How did that?
You had a conversation with the prosecutor at some point.
How did that come about? After Matt died, I wanted the
paperwork from his case and I had one of my brothers go to his
attorney's office and request all of the paperwork and it it
wasn't complete. I know it wasn't complete, but
there was a lot of email exchanges and and motions that
were filed and it was all thrown into this box and it was all
mixed up. And I honestly believe it was on
purpose because I don't believe his attorney did his job.
I don't, but I got this box of paperwork and it was just a
mess. And I sat here one day and I was
spreading it all over the floor in my bedroom, trying to put it
in chronological order. And I came across this one email
from the prosecutor to Matt's attorney, and it had his name
and phone number on the on the paper.
And I didn't think twice about it.
I picked up the phone. I dialled the number and I left
a voicemail for him and about an hour later I get a phone call
back and it was an operator, she said.
This is an operator in the prosecutor's office and I want
you to know that you are on a recorded line with several
witnesses. And I was thinking to myself,
fine, you know, what do you think that is?
That is really. Strange, just just for what it's
worth, cause I've called AUS as many times.
I've never had anybody say that. I don't know that they record
them, but they obviously set this thing up to do that
exactly. They knew who they were called.
Right. OK.
And so I thought to myself, well, I know what to say and
what not to say, and I'm certainly not going to make a
threat. That's not in me, Kyle.
I'm not the type of person that's going to threaten
anybody. So it took a couple of minutes
and the prosecutor picked up the phone and I told him who I was,
which I know he knew who I was. And he says, well, let me just
start off by saying that myself and many people in our
department, and I'm assuming he means the Department of Justice,
we're very saddened to hear that Matthew took his life.
And I said you and the people in your department are the reason
Matthew took his life. And I said, I don't understand
for the life of me, knowing everything about my nephew's
case, how you could have come up with this enhancement for his
sentencing hearing, this terrorism enhancement.
And he said if Matthew just could have waited another month
until his hearing, I don't believe the enhancement would
have stuck with his judge and my heart.
I was. I I can't even tell you it was
just empty, because at that point I knew.
But this was just an idle threat.
That they made. And my nephew acted upon that
threat. And this guy didn't even think
it would have stuck. It was political posturing.
Yes, and I said, Do you understand that it was that
threat that caused my nephew to hang himself?
I said, what is wrong with you? What did he say?
I said. These are human beings that
you're dealing with and our family is never going to recover
from this and I hope that when you go to bed each night.
My nephew Matthew Perna will be the last person you think of
every night when you close your eyes and the role that you
played in his death. And I no response you.
Didn't you didn't hear anything? Responded what?
How do you think that was received, out of curiosity?
Based on the tone of voice. That you heard earlier.
You know, unless I was talking to Satan himself, that man had
to be affected by my phone call. He had to have.
And another thing that I did after, I think it was after that
phone call, I sent a letter to Matt's judge registered mail.
I wrote him a letter. I told him who I was.
I told him about Matt. What a wonderful person he was.
And I asked that judge in the in my letter if he would please
start looking at these people as human beings and treating them
as such, and understanding that they have families who love them
and that one moment of of a mistake in their life shouldn't
cost them what it costs. My nephew and I said, please, I
beg you in the future when these people come across your court.
Have mercy on them. The mercy that wasn't shown to
my nephew. I don't know if that impacted
any anything, but I will say this, there was a person that
reached out to me on Twitter about a month ago.
Young guy with two children and beautiful wife.
And he reached out to me because he had the same charges as Matt
and he felt very desperate. And I get a lot of these Kyle.
There were people from January 6, they're so desperate.
And I tell them, please, taking your life is going to leave a
pet A and destruction in your family that they will never
recover from. You don't want to do that.
And this guy had two beautiful children and a wife.
Matt didn't have any children. He wasn't married.
I can't imagine the impact that would have on on this guy's wife
and children. He says.
Well, the reason I feel such a connection to Matt is because I
have his same judge, he said. I have the same charges.
And I'm feeling just as desperate as he is right now.
I told him I would be praying for him.
And I would I and I was here for him if he needed me, I said
Please update me once you have your sentencing.
He got back with me. The day of his sentencing.
The judge. Gave him 12 days in prison, in
gaol and a $5000 fine. And it as much as I was happy
for this guy. There was this huge, selfish
part of me that was so pissed. With Matt going to get 10 days
in gaol, 12 days in gaol, 30 days if he just stuck it out.
Or is it possible that my letter to the judge changed his outlook
on these people from January 6th?
Yeah. And I will never know.
And as happy as I wanted to be for this man I was, I was
jealous. For Matt.
If that makes any sense. It makes a lot of sense.
Actually, and there's something to be said, I mean.
Like I said, a lot of. Times we see things in the
rearview mirror that we can't see when it's happening.
You told us the story about Matthew's life.
You told us about how he was willing to lose his job, his
temporary comfort, something he wasn't into.
He didn't. He didn't need it.
He didn't need the job, but it was a job and it was paying him.
And he said no, no, take me save this person.
And in some ways we can see a parallel in a much bigger way,
obviously. With, you know, is that a
sacrifice that he was put on the earth to be making and say this
man with these kids, you know, maybe that's some peace, it's
horrible. It's, it's such a hopeless
scenario to imagine the weight of the federal government and
it's and so many of these people I think are in there all by
themselves. And that's the scary thing.
There's not another. Person that is experiencing
exactly the same police state actions.
I'm going I'm going to tie this back in but there's they're not
experiencing it's the the saving grace for me and my friends.
I felt those feelings of dread. My buddies and I are all
carrying the same but at the same time there's more of us and
Matthew is all by himself and got crushed literally crushed
emotionally and and and and physically and wasn't able to to
bear the weight which is incredible.
I mean nobody can know it until you know it An unknown amount of
time with an unknown amount of you know, non human.
Interaction It's We talked about social media earlier.
Zoom calls to decide your fate for God knows how long.
Right, it's so. Impersonal.
And it's so inhuman. It's the opposite of what our
our, our scenarios and our and our government was set up to do.
You know of the people, by the people with a jury of your
peers. It's none of that.
That didn't happen for him, you know, and doesn't feel like
justice at. All these people, they're
they're not given their due process, right?
You're talking about people who haven't had their court, they in
court yet. It's been almost three years.
There are people that are sitting in gaol waiting for
their court hearings when under normal circumstances they would
not have been sentenced as long as they've been sitting in gaol.
I mean, it's, it's beyond the scope of your constitutional
rights. We're past that.
They're they're being ignored completely.
Yeah, this is a human. Dignity issue, yeah.
It's not about what something in the Bill of Rights says, which
is pretty it's pretty formalised.
We're talking about what's decent and what's OK, what's
right and righteous. And the other thing is this,
Kyle, they're pleading guilty because they're not going to
receive a fair trial in DC, right?
And you know. Louie Gohmert drafted the
Matthew Lawrence Purna Act of 2022 and Marjorie Taylor Green
had Co sponsored the bill. And part of that bill includes
allowing for a change of venue because these people that have
been charged in January 6 are being made to have their trials
in DC, a Democrat city. They're not going to have a fair
trial. And so they're pleading guilty.
And I believe with all my heart, this is exactly what the
Department of Justice wants. They want you to plead guilty.
They want you to admit you did something wrong, even if you
know in your heart you didn't. And.
And what's the first person, the first thing the people on the
left say? Well, they pled guilty.
They must have done it. I still get it on my Twitter
feed. Well, he pled guilty.
Your son, your nephews, guilty. He was just a coward.
And that's why he killed himself, because he didn't want
to serve out his sentence. Those are the kind of comments I
get. Yeah, it's it's soulless.
I mean, it really is. It's just absolute gallery.
But the sad thing is, is those are the same people that would
say just because someone pled guilty and if they were black,
they would, they would lionise them and say, well, that's
because the weapon. Weaponization of the justice
system against them. There there's no reason or
accountability as we said earlier and and unfortunately.
It's like we have to win, and the way we win is on top of the
lives of people who by all accounts it sounds it was
Matthew. Was he ever in a fight that you
know of? Did you ever get a physical
altercation with anybody? No, you know.
And did he show up to fight on on that day, you know, the
videos you see of him, or was he getting combative with people?
No, he had an American flag and he had a a MAGA hat on, right?
He didn't show, but he didn't show up with plate carriers and
and and body armour and and an AR15 strapped across his chest.
He wasn't there to take over something.
I mean, we hear these stories. I, like I said, it was obvious
to me as someone who was investigating.
I mean, I don't know what I would call it.
I was just getting leads. It was leads from people who
just were just seemed like assholes in the world and they
were just saying horrible things about people that they barely
knew. We'd get them in and it's like,
this is trash. Why would you investigate this?
And a fundamentally unfair process has been taking place on
there. It's why we keep sharing these
stories. I've had the Proud Boys on that
were sentenced to unbelievable amounts of time, 25 years, 32
years. You know, we brought him on for
the same reasons. It's like.
How do you even square that when we know that people that have
raped children are are out, or people that have done child
pornography, made it, distributed, shared it there in
the months they're measuring their sentences and months and
they've irreparably damaged things that will never be right,
like children that will never be right.
Now, and they and and they're getting that slap on the wrist
that Matt was promised a slap on the wrist.
How do you precedent it? How do you do?
How do you? Go through your day.
I mean, how do you go through your day?
Can you forgive these people? Can you forgive the people that
were involved in this? Are you?
Is that something you're working towards?
You know, they say you have to forgive your enemies.
You have to forgive them. I find it very difficult.
I want to see justice. I don't mean in a monetary way.
I want to see the people accountable, held accountable.
I want to see that in in my lifetime.
I would love to see the truth come out and the people behind
this entire setup, the exposed, but I think you and I both know
that's never going to happen. It's not going to happen.
So I guess maybe someday I'll have forgiveness in my heart for
what was done to him. Um, but it's not anytime soon.
This is all too fresh. Our family has to live with this
every day. You know, everybody has a little
bit of guilt in them. I should have done more.
I wish I could have been there, or maybe had for myself when I
talked to him on the phone that day.
I should have booked the plane ticket.
I should have flown home, but who's to say that the minute I
got back on a plane to come home, he wouldn't have done it
Then I couldn't be there to hold his hand 24 hours a day.
And I feel guilty about that. So I try to help other J Sixers
as best I can. And you know, I was on Twitter.
It was last month and I made I put a tweet out there that if
anybody needs somebody to talk to from January 6th, please just
send me a DM. And somebody came on and said,
well, you weren't you didn't have a very good track record
with your nephew. Why would they bother?
And I just there stays. I'm defeated.
Yep. There are days I am so defeated.
But there are days I am so angry that I will.
I will fight as hard as I can. So it's a roller coaster, Yeah.
That's probably gonna be like that for a long time, I think.
I'm I think. You're you're experiencing
something and I think this tells an important story because I
think a lot of people probably were like why, why is this aunt
the one talking? I'm glad that we were able to
put that out there. Like I said, I haven't heard
anywhere else. I know there was the story there
behind it. I wanted people to be able to
experience that at least a little bit of how close your
connection was and and that your sister in law was you know,
someone that was that close to you.
And how you've kind of come to be standing in and be an
advocate for Matt in this scenario which is really
important. It's I mean, we can't let these
stories fall apart and and fall away from the public.
I wonder if you can kind of talk about maybe as a wrap up.
How? And I'm sorry, I'm looking off
cameras. I'm just trying to just kind of
compose my thoughts on it, but. How does your experience?
Seeing what happened to your nephew.
Affect your view of what this country means to you and your
family at this point and maybe if you can, differentiate the
difference between what our country is and means and what
this government. Is and does.
And maybe you can kind of reflect on that in the in the
nature of, I know we both participated in this movie
police state. We all have kind of a different
experience of what it what a police state is and why.
So maybe you can kind of wrap it up with that sort of thoughts?
I no longer have the pride in this country that I used to
have. We have a flag in our backyard
that flies and I I would change the flag out every six months.
Living in Florida, they don't last quite as long down here
with the salt air. Right now my flag is flying,
completely torn and tattered, and I will not take it down.
I will not change it to a brand new one because we are a country
in distress. Matt's dad's flag is still
flying the way Matt put it there, upside down in his front
yard. The flag flies upside down in my
brother's yard right now. I hope to goodness that we get a
president in office this next term.
Who? Knows what they're doing.
I hope it's President Trump. I hope he pardons the January
Sixers. Not that it's going to give them
back their lives. But at least it'll exonerate
them. We are in a police state.
We're not headed towards one, we are in one.
And I think it's so subtle at times that people don't realise
it. They don't realise the
censorship is all part of a police state.
It's no different than visiting a communist country.
I was in Cuba a few years ago. We went down for just curiosity
trip on a weekend three days in Cuba.
I'd never understood communism until I visited Cuba and how
subtle it is. It's not people walking the
streets with machine guns and body armour antagonising people.
That is not communism. Communism is going to the
grocery store and only having one brand to choose from.
Communism is not having any Internet service or watching
television and not knowing if it's a soccer game that's taking
place now or was it 1 from a year ago.
The propaganda IS is unbelievable.
So when I say we're in a police state here and people are
oblivious to it, you know, it is these subtle things that are
taking place that are causing people to not realise that we
are, we are limited, we are not free anymore.
We're not free to do the things we used to do.
We're not free to speak out about anything that we want to
talk about, especially if it goes against the grain we are
being watched and the sooner people wake up, the sooner, the
sooner we'll be able to get our country back, if it's possible.
But my flag will stay the way it is until I see a change in this
country. And it's a country I could be
proud of again. I think that I.
Think that's gonna resonate with a lot of people.
And I think that as long as there's Netflix and there's Uber
and there's Uber Eats and Costco is still open, that many people
will not have the experience that you and your family have
had of what it what it looks like.
It is slow and creeping and it's it's insidious and self
censorship. That was something you just said
right now, people afraid to talk.
I heard Matt Taibbi talk about going to the Soviet Union when
he when he used to live over there and he said it wasn't what
people didn't say or it wasn't what they said.
Whether it was what they did not say, that they would have
mindless chirping conversations, a lot of what Twitter is such a
good name for it. I used to hate the name.
But it's mindless chirping a lot of times where people are not
saying things of value or of consequence or things that are
bearing their soul the way you just said right now that have
impact because those they're afraid to, and self censorship
is actually the best tool. Of the of the police state
because you're censoring yourself.
They don't have to do it. They've already taught you to
internalise the censorship and so they've once that happens and
there's fear and it's it's comes from cases like what happened to
Matthew where. Don't be like him.
Because it'll happen to you next is sort of the, the implicit
warning that he has. Exactly.
I know what you've said is going to impact a lot of people in our
audience. I know that people are going to
reach out and connect with you both to offer condolences, but
also some people are going to be looking for some support.
We have some people that are probably facing some tough
decisions in the next couple weeks and months.
Can you share ways that you want to be in contact with people,
how you'd like people to be able to follow you and and the
website and I think we have them queued up here so we can show
them as you talk about. Or you can follow me on on XI am
under my name Jerry Perna, I am on Truth Social, just Jerry 65.
And you can visit our website, rememberingmattperna.com, where
you can view a lot of mass photography.
The different appearances that I've made updates.
We're in the process of starting the Matthew Perna Foundation.
We hope to have that up by the end of the year.
We're going to continue Matt's generous legacy through the
foundation. It won't be political because he
wasn't political, but it'll be mostly humanitarian efforts and
scholarship funds. Um.
Also on that website, I would like you to watch that video of
him on January 6 because it is that video that they were using
as part of the terrorism enhancement.
When he said this isn't over yet, they took those words out
of context from that video and they said that was a threat to
the US government. Of course they did.
Yeah, sadly. Of course they did.
You know there's no. Just it's.
Soulless. And it's a lack of humour, and
it's a lack of just even human experiences.
Once again, that dehumanisation. Anybody who can listen to those
things can hear 10 different things.
And. I hope that there's a a thought
that that your letter really did change the life for that one
family and I'm probably others who you won't hear about and
maybe that's maybe that's the legacy we end on there.
I really do appreciate you coming on here.
I know I've been to do this for awhile and I appreciate you
grabbing me when we're Malago and for being brave enough to
continue to tell your story. I know this is an advocacy thing
for you now and and making yourself available to folks.
So Jerry, thanks so much for coming on.
And and you know, I wish you peace and we'll be adding you to
our prayers as well and I think a lot of others will.
Thank you so much Kyle for the opportunity.
I really appreciate it. No problem.
At all. Right ladies and gentlemen,
that's Jerry Purna. You can find your website.
They're all going to be in the show notes.
We appreciate you sticking through and listening to
sometimes the hard conversations that we had here.
Not all of them are funny games. Yesterday was pretty good,
pretty fun. But just like earlier this week,
we started off talking about that note of dread.
When the federal government comes to knock on your door
across you, what do you do and and how do you handle it?
And you hope that you can that you can look at the example that
there is a lot out there. There are people that are
pulling for you and that your experience.
Alone. And please reach out to Jerry.
You can reach out to me. Of course you can reach out to
Greg Boyle. You guys know that.
Let's pull Garrett's merch real quick here.
He's been making these shirts. This is what keeps his time.
This is how he keeps himself out of the darkness that is out
there. Check out our merch store.
It's the Dash expendables.com. You can You're just supporting
the Oboyle family as much as anything else.
You're putting in the basement to go out there and stamp out
these shirts. Instead of thinking about the
awful things that are going on in the world and that are
happening for his employment. The fact that they left his
family homeless in the middle of the winter.
As winter approaches again, I'd much rather him be slamming
these things out. And of course our.
American flags are all upside down, just like Jerry talked
about. They're all flying in a state of
duress and in distress. They're even sitting here on my
coffee mug. It's upside down.
The stars are down. They have to be.
I will also encourage you guys if you want to check out our
friends, our sponsors at Catholic Vote.
You don't have to be a Catholic to know.
It keeps you knowing what's going on in the wider world.
There is a lot going on in this world.
It's worth knowing that the stories are many and the hope is
not it's not fleeting from this country, although we are all
obviously dealing with an uphill struggle.
So go in them and they are fighting the FBI currently right
now. You'll see there's another
friend of ours from police state Mark Hope.
He's going to be running for office.
He's taken his turn. Where the DOJ?
Came after him and they are running a campaign right now to
unseat a former FBI agent no less.
He's trying to get rid of Representative Fitzgerald in his
area so that they can actually start acting on behalf of the
American people. So you can support Mark Health,
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If you want to do a monthly donation or if you want to do a
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And they've been sponsoring the Kyle Serafin Show since you guys
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So we really appreciate them. That's it.
That's all for it folks. We got one good review.
It's a it's a it's a nice review.
It's been kind of a rough show to watch.
I know many of you guys are seeing this and thinking.
It's pretty heavy. This is one is coming from If
you leave us a 5 star review on Apple, we will read them on the
show. This one, from November 4th
Thumper 93436, says there should be a Congressional Medal of
Honour for civilians. Five stars.
Kyle deserves a Medal of Honour for his courage going unarmed
into a fight in the most dangerous and unprincipled
elements of our government. While the bullets may not be
flying in this direction, the knives are certainly looking for
his back. Each of us, each of these
podcasts are awesome in preparation and content and
presentation. He's a gift to the nation.
A lot of it is because the the the gift of the the the sharing
that we get from our guests like Jerry Perna.
So we really do appreciate her coming on today and we
appreciate you guys as listeners.
We stream the show at 0930 every.
Monday through Friday, it's 830 in Texas, America, Liberty Hill,
TX, where we're coming out of. We will be on here tomorrow with
Steve Friend for friendly Friday and we'll end the week on an
aggressive note as we do going into the weekend.
Thank you so much for sitting with us and joining us.
Follow Jerry, like I said in the in the show description you can
find all of the contact information that you referenced
and we really appreciate it all. We appreciate you all.
God bless you. God bless all these families
that are going through so much tough times in this rough,
rough, rough moment for our country.
We'll see you tomorrow. Thanks for listening to the Kyle
Serafin. Go streamed live weekdays on
rumble.com/kyle Serafin. Follow Kyle on Twitter, Truth,
Social and Instagram at Kyle Serafin.