Prepared to hear the truth from a real whistleblower and
American patriot? Here's civil liberties
enthusiast, Second Amendment defender, and indefinitely
suspended FBI agent Kyle Serafin.
Welcome back to the Kyle Serafin Show.
This is producer Phil filling in for Kyle while he's on Christmas
vacation. We'll be setting up for Part 2
of the Dan Bongino interview. Before we get to that, we have
to thank all of our folks who've been kind enough to give a five
star review like this one from Always a Storm.
Who writes? I've listened to all of Kyle's
shows, some of them twice. It's hard to believe he hasn't
been doing podcast shows for a living, but I think it's because
he knows his subject matter and speaks with the kind of
confidence and authority that proves he's done his homework.
He is a true supporter of the people in the Constitution.
He and The Who have been on and involved in the show are the
exact people we would want in our federal agencies.
Sadly, they are the very ones the Bureau is afraid of.
Excellent show. Looking forward to the next one.
Thanks always for that nice five star review.
If you'd like to have your five star review read here on the
Kyle Seraphin Show. Please fill one out and maybe
it'll be on the next episode. Also, as a reminder, the Give
Send Go is still out there. Thank you to everyone who's been
kind enough to donate, including Joe who writes Stay strong
brothers. Reach out anytime.
There are more supporters in and outside the Bureau than you will
ever know. Appreciate hearing that, Joe.
All right, so let's get to the episode.
If you heard Part 1, you're now familiar with Kyle and how
everything got kicked off. Now we'll go to Part 2, which a
lot of people have said was the best part of his two-part series
with Dan Bongino, especially the end.
So listen all the way to the end and let us know what you think.
Let's go. Part 2 of my interview with FBI
agent Kyle Serafin, whistleblower, American Patriot.
Really appreciate you being here.
Part 1 of this was eye opening for me.
I did not know a lot of that. We did a little bit of a pre
interview call, but that was fascinating.
We had ended off on January 6th, he said.
January 6th was kind of this seismic earthquake movement in
the FBI where things changed. They bought into the hype that
this was a Pearl Harbor like 911 moment, correct?
What changed? Who was running that
investigation and who could be scooped up in this?
So the way that it went down is it's so bizarre to so many
people. I have friends that retired over
this, you know, they just said I'm done.
I was going to do more time, but I won't.
They took supervisors who had done national security work and
they moved them over and they moved them into a specific
building. It's an off site near the, the
main field office and they opened up, I think it was 3
squads is what my, my recollection.
I could be off, but that's three supervisors, you know, half
dozen agents or more. On each one of them they started
sending TD wise tech, you know, temporary duties and they're
backfilling these so. Bringing people in from.
From every part of the country, every field office was on the
hook to give X number of bodies to show up to do this work.
OK. And then the second thing is
they pulled all of our operational surveillance details
off and they sent us into the office and we had to go through
these leads. So in the FBIA, lead comes in
through this electronic means. It's a couple of ways it could
come in. It could come in from another
agent, he's doing some work or she's doing some work and they
say, hey, will you go interview this person in your area?
It's relevant to my case. This is what I want known, you
know, go size them up, whatever it is.
Hey, would you go serve this subpoena at a bank and go with
these financial records? It has to be done in person,
whatever The thing is, right? There's a lot of different leads
that they'll send you on. The other way it can come in is
through our national call center, which got stacked up big
time after Parkland and is it just takes in calls.
And my numbers are going to be, you know, sort of hyperbolic.
But let's say 99% of those are just crazies calling in and
telling you about the implant that the CIA put in their nose.
And I used to get those in the ER.
And I know you saw them when you were a patrol cop.
It's just what happened. So I'm in.
This is a secret. Service.
Yeah, just. Everybody wanted to kill the.
Prince, that's right. Very few people do.
Yeah. Everybody wants to go and get
involved in that. You know, they're going to stake
outlaw enforcement. And we're watching your, your,
you know, so we'd have a booklet of these threats that come in
all the time. January 6th was a totally
different animal. There were a queue of 10s of
thousands of leads that had to be processed and they all had to
be looked at because any one of those things could be the thing
that breaks the case, whatever this case is, you know.
And so, so they're shipping bodies in from all over the
country. Have TDY or a temporary duty
assignment just like the military, and they're just
plussing up this squad so they fill it full of people,
everybody's. In Washington, near the
Washington field office. Correct.
Yeah, it's off site, just nearby.
And so they're staffing it up. They're bringing people in from
all over the place, and these are usually voluntold positions.
I don't think a lot of people are on thrilled about it.
You know, one of the guys out of my office, it was his first year
in. He's like, oh, let me see.
DCI said all it's going to teach you is that you don't want to go
to DC. But yeah, that's useful
knowledge when you're a younger guy got like go to DC and
realize that it's not good. So, you know, he went and then
he complained to me every single day in text messages.
Hey, this is, this is not a good spot.
Like what's going on here? It's like, but he saw a lot of
things. Good for him.
Here's the deal. We had a queue of these leads
and the leads are these operational requests, right?
Whether you go pick up a subpoena, you're going to go get
stuff from a bank, You're going to go interview somebody in a
different area. So we don't have to fly an agent
in. We got an agent right there.
They'll just go do the questions.
So you send your questionnaires. Here's what it is.
Sometimes we get them for a clearing, like federal judges
and stuff like that. So we'll go do that.
But this is a totally different animal.
These leads, they're coming in out of the national call center
and they're coming in, you know, most of that call center and
hyperbolically speaking, we say there's, you know, 99% crazies.
It's the guy, you know, the CIA put a bug in my ear and the FBI
is trying to kill me or, you know, I got to go do this thing.
All the crazies. These are a different animal
altogether. It was America like just going
crazy. So and, and some of them you
only, you have to just quote them because they're so wild.
It's like I got one that says something like, you know, hey,
I, I knew Dan, you know, back in high school, he was a real a
hole. And I'm pretty sure he loved
Reagan. You know, he probably loved
Trump up directly. These are these are all over the
place. There were dozens of these
things, if not more. And I that I saw and I only saw,
you know, maybe 1000 or 2000, but we're just trolling through
these things. And it's saying like, you know,
I don't know if he was at January 6th, but he probably
would have been and like. Calling the FBI to do.
That yeah. Or they'd send it in online.
A lot of those would come in online.
So we'd get the IP and it would tell you where it was coming
from. And so they'd go, you know,
whatever it is, they they would just tell you this crazy story.
It's like, I didn't like him a long time ago.
I haven't seen him in 10 years, but he kind of looks like
picture number 75 because it was a whole, you know, lineup of
hundreds of people that were, you know, pictured breached in
the capital or whatever it was. And it's like, yeah, he looks
like #75 So it's probably him. Go get him.
You know, So if you sent that to me, I would throw that in the
trash. That's garbage.
That's not a lead. That's a crazy person to me.
That's a that's a potentially someone alleging a First
Amendment protective activity that they attended a rally.
OK. But that's not what happened.
And like I'm saying that there were 10s of thousands of these
things and there were hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands
of people looking at them. So somebody would go do the
background research. Some of these would come in half
baked with a package and they'd be like, yeah, we looked up Dan
and you know, he lives in Wichita, KS and, you know,
here's his address. So we need someone to go talk to
him. And So what happened so many of
these things is that somebody would go out and talk to you,
which I would have absolutely either walked up and just said
something's the effect of it's like, hey, I'm from the FBI.
You, you want to talk to me today?
You know, you don't have this conversation because you 100%
are within your rights to say no.
Oh, you don't want to talk to me.
Well, it's really nice meeting you have a nice day.
I'm out. You know, that's the end of
that. But so many people, because of
the letters of it and because the people associate the FBI
with being this law enforcement agency when it acts like an
intelligence agency, they came out and they would talk.
And it turns out you weren't at January 6th.
You didn't show up at the Capitol.
You were going to go. You said it on Facebook, but you
actually didn't. But your buddy did.
And here. Well, what's your buddy's name?
And then you tell me. All right, Well, then we go talk
to him. Hey, were you in the capital?
Yeah. Did you take any pictures?
Zach, can we see your phone? Oh, OK.
Cool. Trespassing charges.
It's. Trespassing.
Well, whatever it was, you know, trespassing or you went behind
the lines or you interfered with a congressional, whatever the
whatever the charges are, so many of them are misdemeanors.
And I say in that way because, again, you associate the FBI
with, you know, major international conspiracies.
Taking down the mob. Taking down the mob, you know,
the Rudy Giuliani era. I mean, I had worked with George
Gabriel, who was involved with the John Gotti case when he was
running Lyra in Long Island. Trespassing is my buddy Pete,
Hegseth said on Fox once. Reminds him of the Allen Iverson
called practice. You know, we're talking about
practicing. You know, I get it.
I would have not preferred January 6th turned out different
as well. I think any sane person would
have been. But to take, you know, 6 figure
FBI earners with a set of skills and to ghost, you know, let them
just run out all across America taking tips about a guy you met
in potentially 8th grade showing up on January 6th sounds a
little Orwellian. To me it seems insane and it
happened and it probably will continue.
The the first thing they teach you in the Academy when they're
going through the basic law. We don't, we don't learn any
federal statutes, which is a little bit weird.
And, and that's probably a a surprise to people who went to
things like FLIO or people who've been through other law
enforcement academies. We don't cover federal statutes.
We cover constitutional law. So that's good.
Yeah, but how do you investigate the federal statues if you're
not learning them in Quantico? You got to go learn them at your
at your field squad and you only learn and you pretty much only
learn what you're working. Wow, that's a interesting.
It's not like I'm walking through the street and I have a
broad palette of federal cases that I have in my mind.
And it's like when I see the problem, it's like, oh, I know
that's a violation of, you know, fill in the blank 18.
You would see this or 21. That's not how it works.
We have two major, you know, coverages, Title 18 and Title
21. And then you just go learn them
as you apply them and they're not taught.
So, but they do teach you that we don't do misdemeanors.
The FBI doesn't mess around with misdemeanors.
At least in 2716. They told us that that's the
that's the message I walked around with.
And we don't really mess around with low level felonies that,
you know, things like, you know, lying to the FBI, the the famous
18 USC 1001 charge. It's the only one that I ever
remember being discussed by all the instructors there.
And it's always really funny because I, I actually got called
back to the Academy three months after I started work in the
field office because I've been a paramedic for a long time and I
was a free instructor to do emergency medical stuff.
So I sit down with all these new, you know, almost ready to
be badge and gun FBI agents. And I would just mess with him a
little bit because that's the kind of guy that I am as we're
sitting down there. And some of the people who see
this will Remember Me doing it. But I'd say, OK, so everyone
here is about to be a federal law enforcement officer, federal
law enforcement agent. What are some federal laws that
we know? You know, and, and then it's
just like just silence and crickets.
And that blank look would fall over their face.
Like we don't know any laws. We don't know any laws or, or
what the elements of the crimes are that would that would
constitute a violation of that law.
They're just not covered, which probably is insane to a lot of
people, but that's the way that it comes out.
So you're very, very malleable when you come out.
So you've got a potential new guy just off probation, gets TD
wide temporary duty to DC to investigate the January 6 folks
who doesn't have a wide kind of breadth of what he should be
looking for in terms of serious federal crimes because he never
learned that. He learned constitutional law,
the overview basically 1001. So you're out in the field kind
of just susceptible to what the next guy who's more senior to
you told you to do. So if he just doesn't like a few
people, he's going out to investigate and decide he's
going to focus on grandma and her six friends.
They're in real trouble. I I imagine so, yeah.
Because you're going to take the senior guy's word for it because
he's been doing it for longer. And you haven't been trained on
what the elements of the other crimes are.
No. And I and, and you know, that's
what's really interesting if these, these January 6 filings,
they're so long, you can always tell the difference between a
national security filing and, and like most criminal filings,
unless it's a really complicated white collar case and I've read
a couple of them. But essentially when you look at
these, you know, most, most criminal complaints are very
short. It's a couple pages.
For a reason. Yeah, because they did one thing
and they did that thing. And then here's what the
elements are, and here's the probable cause to establish.
We'll get the rest out upon the discovery later on.
I don't want to give you all my goodies.
Right. But more importantly, like I
just have to meet the the the elements of probable cause.
So here it is. When you go through and read
national security filings, whether it's counterterrorism
or, you know, these January 6th misdemeanors and and so on,
they're really long. Someone was telling me that
they're running affidavits. The affidavit is the piece of
the search warrant or the arrest warrant that says what your case
is, right? Just what you're swearing out to
the Magistrate Judge. Dozens of pages, all kinds of
back stories, Trump's tweets. Why do you know that news story?
Because that's how they they build information.
They're building an informational story.
That's my belief. I it's it's obviously this is
the little. They realize the press are
getting I I get that, but you the press is going to get so
they want to tell the story and and and put stick as much, you
know, indictable material in the public eye in that as possible.
There's some court of public opinion win there, I'm sure.
The other piece of it is probably the if you don't have
the goods, you know, you baffle them with BS kind of deal.
There's a lot of information in there.
The other thing is this, The FBI has a lot of credibility with
magistrate judges in my experience, which is immediately
fairly limited. But everybody tells me this, if
you bring it out there, you swear to it.
It's not like the judge is going to question you on a bunch of
the elements of it. If it looks good, sounds pretty
good. It's written in English.
You know, the punctuation is where it belongs.
You didn't make any obvious formatting errors.
It's good to go. It goes forward.
You know, we have these these templates that you'll go use.
There's a different name internally.
It's called ponies, but they'll they'll you got a pony.
It looks good. You fill in the place.
This is my name, you know, this is my training.
This is the specialized training I have.
Go. Bys.
Yep, same idea. I don't know why.
We have our own name for it. Everyone else calls them a go
by. By the way, you're everybody
else. If I ever ask for it, I can't go
by this. Yeah.
You have a pony. No, I don't have a pony.
I don't know what that is. No, I have a horse.
So we do this thing and as as long as it looks right, you're
good to go. I mean, I've read, I've read
counterterrorism affidavit and somebody and I've reported this
to Congress. So I'll just leave it at that.
But I've read some that had outright lies in them.
They were factually inaccurate and everybody should know it.
You know, trying to trying to tell somebody that you know, and
and the person who wrote it should probably have what we
call Giglio material, which is to say they shouldn't be able to
testify. You lied underoath.
You had to raise your hand and swear and affirm that what you
said was true and it's false. That's terrifying.
Like you shouldn't be able to put false information into a
warrant and and take somebody down for that and take away.
Your gig, Leo, as a Fed, you're done.
You're. At the end of the day.
Yeah, I mean, you can never work again.
You can never testify because it's brought up every every
single case in the. Future, you have to disclose it.
It's required disclosure as part of the discovery.
You got to tell them that. Yeah, I've been found to have
lied, Underoath. Let's do a contrast for a
moment. So you're in the FBI while the
the Antifa BLM riots are going on.
We've got this massive outbreak of violence across American
cities going on. Was there a similar effort
within the FBI as you saw after January 6th, which by your
descriptions, a clear full court press here, everyone involved
and everyone even secondarily involved?
Did you see anything similar when all these riots were
breaking out with the Antifa and these BLM groups?
So I wasn't in an investigative role.
I was in a surveillance role at that time.
And we were at, we were with the the Uniform Division of Secret
Service the day after they burned St.
George's Church. That was there when there were
stacks of bricks on the ground that were lined up and they were
covered in granola bars, which was bizarre.
You know, friends of mine had been getting in fights all night
long. They had put different SWAT
teams on the line. But federal SWAT teams are not
designed for crowd control. They don't have that training.
They don't have that equipment. They brought in Bureau of
Prisons to try to hold these lines.
But do we investigate those people?
Do we, you know, haul them down by the dozens and throw them
into the DC, you know, the DC jail system?
Absolutely not. But that's what happened in the
January 6th, of course. Yeah, I mean the contrast was
obvious. I I actually did a A2 week stint
where I was out in Portland and the.
Courthouse. Well, we were on.
We were on. They'd moved on from the
courthouse by that time, so they had already, they were somewhere
in the middle of 100 days. But it was towards the tail end
of it. And, you know, I saw like, like
street battles and parks between Portland Police Bureau and these
goons that were just running around.
They're they look like they were like Larping nights.
I just was cracking up about it. Like it was one of the funniest
thing if it wasn't so sad and so bizarre that it was going on.
It was hilarious to watch. Like, I hear guys yell retreat
at the top of their lungs and they all run off into a
neighborhood and you'd look and you're like, what in the world?
We got night vision. You know, they're watching
what's going on. You see too many movies they
have. And then they come running back
in with their Shields and they try to hit the, you know, the
police. You got to give the Portland
Police Bureau credit. The guys they put on the line
were monsters. They were absolutely just jacked
studs. And so you just watch them, just
like 12 of them would just repeal, you know, they would
just break the phalanx of 60 of these goofballs coming running
up in cartoon costumes. You're a. 120 lbs soaking wet
you've been eating. Yeah, it takes.
It's all. Day, yeah, it takes 3 of you.
It takes 3 of you to try to disrupt like a grown man that
looks like he's going to do it. No, I fan planting them and
stuff. We saw wild stuff, but we didn't
have any intervention and we had federal targets.
And there was no effort to go and kind of do surveillance on
this network to see who was organizing where these bricks
with the granola bar, granola bars were coming from.
There's two pieces to that that are really troubling to me #1 I
watched the federal target get wrapped up in the state arrest,
got interviewed and let go that night, interviewed by us, not by
my squad, but by agents in that field office.
And it's like, how do we just let that happen?
We're like, we know that there was a, there was a state charge.
We asked him to hold them. Like there's no appetite to do
that and we couldn't push it federal.
And then the you know, the second piece of it is I sat in a
car and I I'm pretty sure I got yelled at for this, but I sat in
a car because I wanted to watch. Like that was my job.
Like my job is to see what's going on there.
So it's my second last night there.
I know if they burn the vehicle, that's to say they see the
plates and they know what it is and they put it out of the
radio. It doesn't really matter for our
operational work because I'm going to turn that car into the
rental agency and some other poor Staffs going to be driving
it. Hopefully he doesn't get beat up
and doesn't look anything like me.
I had a pretty heavy beard at the time and I'm wearing a dark
car heart hoodie, you know, and I've got my body armor on the
whole deal. And I'm sitting in this my
vehicle pickup truck and I'm 5 miles away, 3 miles away or
something from this variety protest where they're burning
things in the middle of the parking lot.
They're screaming about something some guy who robbed
the liquor store and then got shot because he pointed his gun
at the cops, something like that.
And I remember going like, well, that's what happens.
It's bad choice. So I get AI get a heads up, hey,
there may be a security element moving to your position.
And I get maybe a half dozen of these Antifa types.
They're wearing tactical looking vests, but I don't think they
had any body armor in it. They were just, they just looked
good. It was cosplay, right?
They had a, they had a patch on there with a fist and this kind
of deal. And it was a it was a gal who
was kind of tall. She looked like a 80s villain.
She had like, you know, bleached blonde hair, real short.
She's wearing a black miniskirt with his like, yeah, just she's,
you know, she's dressed up in her parts.
She's got fishnets on and high boots.
And she's there with a couple guys that look like they were
beefier than the other guys. They look like normal, you know,
mediating type human beings and, and they're surrounding this
vehicle that I'm in. And I just thought like, now
what? Oops.
Like now I'm sitting here and they all came out of they came
out from behind the buildings. I saw them behind me.
I can run and burn the fact that I was doing what I was doing, or
I can sit there and eat beef jerky and just kind of talk to
them for a little bit. So, you know, they came up to
the window, which I had rolled down just so I could kind of get
some air in the car because we're not running the engine.
You don't want to call attention to yourself.
So I'm sitting there. It's like, what are you doing?
I'm eating beef jerky. What are you doing?
It's like you look real sketchy. It's like you look sketchy.
Like where'd you get those fishnets?
It's like they still make those. Is Hot Topic still open?
You know, like I'm just I'm just zinging her with it and and
she's telling her buddies they're trying to take their
cameras and take pictures of me and kind of just block it.
It's like, hey, man, do you want me to drive off and take you
with me or do you want to ride? You need to go somewhere.
What's going on? And they out of themselves.
One of the guys tells me he ends up that he was, you know, I saw
you the other day. You know, he's like, I saw you.
Were you at the park on Sunday? It's like, dude, I don't even
know what day it is today. Like how would I know?
And he goes and he goes, yeah, I was in the, the blue and white
Yamaha. And I was like, no kidding, I
never saw your face. Snap.
Got you. OK, good.
Now there's one more down. So I'm taking pictures of them
every once in a while, too. And we floated it all up.
Had to ride up a long brief because I was off duty.
Theoretically, we're never really off duty, right?
We're always on duty. But I was away from my squad,
kind of sitting by myself. So I ride it all up.
Nothing. It's like they came out pretty
overt threat. They heard that they were
calling out my, my, my plates over their radio system.
They were using FRS radios, which we're able to, you know,
record. So we had all of their
interactions and that was the third, I was probably the third
or fourth agent that was outed during that 3, three or four
days, like where it was pretty tight.
You know, I had one of my guys drove off and we, we were told
to bug out for a little bit. He goes driving off and he was
chased by, you can't make it up. He was chased by 5 people on
bicycles. He was driving a Nissan Armada.
You know, he's a, he's an agent, 25 years in, former Marine,
capable, you know, salty hair, salt and pepper, but very
capable individual as far as that goes.
He's getting followed by bicycles and they're doing this
bicycle convoy and he's running red lights to just get away from
them. They're running the red lights
too, just following him, just chasing them off the X and it's
like nothing happened. But nothing happened.
Yeah, there's no. Hey, were you engaged in like,
why don't we could have rolled any of those people up and had a
conversation when they were far away?
It's like, what do you sound like?
Doing that was more of a political decision than it was a
law enforcement 1. I mean, and it was a free trial.
To burn down that courthouse. That's right.
And you have to. Remember, you know, President
Trump, I know a lot of Secret Service agents who were there
that night who've spoken to me, specifically the night they
tried to, you know, get into the White House.
You know, those guys got hurt. A lot of agents got hurt.
The guys I worked with that day were.
Hurt down to the bunker and the media thought that was
hilarious. I wanted to get to a few other
things with you. This recent a whistleblower
revelation about the push to classify cases around the
country as domestic violent extremist cases to to pitch this
narrative, right, that there's a big domestic terror problem.
We're going to get to that in a second.
Let me just take a quick break and we'll be right back, folks.
Thank you for your patience during this brief break.
We really appreciate. We'd be right back with our
interview with FBI whistleblower Kyle Surfing.
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Now back to our interview with Cal Service.
All right, welcome back. We're talking to FBI agent Kyle
Servant Kyle this there was a story out recently that they're
looking to bump up and juice the numbers on domestic violent
extremism. The FBI, pursuant to a push from
the DOJ in the White House, one of the allegations was that
they're opening up cases around the country that may have
originated exclusively in DC with January 6th.
Can you tell us about that, how that's how that works and how
that would juice the stats to fit a narrative?
So if you had, I guess there's two ways to open a case, right?
You can open an umbrella case and you can open a bunch of sub
files underneath it. It's like here's all the targets
under this particular, you know, larger event that happened and
they could do that with January 6th.
But as I understand it, each person is being individually
open. That's that was the gist of what
I took away from what that person said.
And I actually don't know that person, which is kind of warms
my heart. There's people out there that I
don't know that are putting disclosures and everything about
that. Like I said, I got 3-4 hundred
people that are upset and they don't want the things going on
that are going on right? And there's, there's allegations
come out and we go, hey, does anyone know this guy?
And it's like, reach out to us, please.
Like reach out to me. I just created a true social
account. I, I despise the idea of having
social media, but it's a necessary evil.
It's Kyle Seraphin. It's at Kyle Seraphin on Truth.
Spell it out for them. So it's KYLESERAPHI on truth.
So reach out to me like let's all get us like the more nodes,
we figured there's probably four or five nodes of FBI
whistleblowers and they're all probably feeding each other
information because people are fed up.
I mean, the agency did not, a lot of people didn't sign up
this. I don't think the majority of
the FBI per SE is willing to go along with this.
But so many people have gone along with all the COVID pieces
and all the different compliance mechanisms.
It's just one more step. It's people don't know what to
do. But some of these are a step too
far. Thank God for a couple of them.
You think they may be opening up these cases as sub files
according to again, I know you're not that specific
whistleblower, but he seemed to be insinuating at these cases
were being open up, opened up the kind of fit a case quota
more than the fit an investigative.
Right. So my my friends who were
counterterrorism, I paint it out there, I was like, hey, is this
a thing? Are we doing what they call
racially motivated violent extremism cases?
Are there numbers that we're having to hit?
Like we're constantly getting told that our numbers are too
low? You know, I'm personally being
told that by people that I know are being honest with me.
So I have every reason to believe that the congressman who
said it is out there saying the right thing.
You know, Congressman Jordan's people are receiving the
information. You know, word travels fast.
There's a there's a funny little piece that that Christopher
Walken does in a, in a movie called Suicide Kings.
He talks about word on the street.
It's like one of those classic New York things.
He's like, you know, cops lie, politicians lie.
But the thing you can trust word on the street, the word on the
street is getting around inside the FBII think that there
there's a there's a path, there are people that if you give it
to them, they will expose that. And I think that it has to be
done like we have no other option at this point.
So it's kind of a de facto quota for these racially motivated
kind of white supremacy cases that they're looking for.
But doesn't that create, again, a bizarre set of incentives
where if you're a field agent looking for promotion, you're
being told by your supervisor, you know, hey, be kind of a
shame if you didn't find a white supremacist threat today?
I mean, like I said before, when you're looking in the Salem
witch trials for a witch, you're going to find one and you find
people under investigation for, you know, white supremacy.
Listen, if you've been involved in that kind of stuff, then by
all means, that's what we do. But the incentives are all
wrong. So it's not nearly as overt as
any of that, as you can imagine. I mean that's that's the
hyperbolic version of it. How does it go down?
Someone's got to come and tell you every, every FBI office has
field health metrics. It's going to be X number of
cases opened up under whatever types of cases.
You know, how many diversity events we attended as a squad is
one of those metrics. It's like a bunch of other just
like there's administrative, there's case, there's
operational, there's outcomes and so on, and they need to hit
X number of them, as I understand it, to get the
bonuses. A lot of people don't understand
that once you reach the GS15 level, for us, that's the ASAC,
the assistant special agent at charge level, the next guy up is
making bonuses on performance. It's more than the than the
normal government pace app. So, you know, a lot of Secret
Service guys cap out. It's 174,000 and change.
You know, they're doing a lot of overtime to earn that.
They're busting their butts. There's no doubt about it.
You can get above that cap. Once you move into the SES,
you've moved off the GES scale. And so those people are working
on a totally different incentive structure.
And those incentive structures are kind of a negotiation as I
understand it. They covered it in the Academy.
I don't know why. It didn't really matter to me
then. And it started to get more
interesting to me now when I start looking at it and it's a
negotiation, I understand from from headquarters and the field
saying, hey, you know, we think these are your threats and this
is the things you should be performing on.
And they push back and they kind of negotiate out like this is
how I'm going to be rated for the year.
And so they they pick up what's the top threat in that area.
There's a national threat indexing.
There's a banding level where we talked about what the big things
are that we're looking at. And then you kind of go, well,
you know, I'm in, take your pick.
Like, yeah, I'm in Alaska. We don't have any abortion
clinics up here or wherever that is.
I don't know if there's any in there, but there's not very many
people. So we don't actually have any of
that. So we can't or Mississippi,
let's say you're in Mississippi, there's not any abortion
clinics. So we don't have anyone
protesting outside of abortion clinics.
So that's not a threat of bombing an abortion clinic.
So we can't have that high up on our list.
It may be higher nationally than it is locally.
So they'll, but they'll come at you and they'll just say, hey,
you know, well, you know, I got transferred to a national
security squad when I came back to work and they said you we
need to get some business. We we need to get you some
cases. It's like, OK, well, what are
you working on? You move me on to a squad
theoretically because there's a need, but that's not really how
it works. They moved me into a squad
because it was a spot on the squad and we need to have people
doing national security investigations on that squad.
So go find some national security problems.
Go drive out in the desert, go look around at the border.
And then, you know, when I come back with something like a
cartel case because I got some Border Patrol guys.
I had a great meeting with some of those guys down there.
You know, they go, hey, I think we got this long term smuggling
operation. You guys ever going to be
interested in it or what's going on?
Yeah, maybe. I think so.
That sounds good. And then what's the thing that
comes back? And it's like, well, that could
be it. That could be a
counterintelligence, you know, investigation, right?
We could open up a parallel because we don't know that
they're not smuggling in spies, right?
They're probably just moving in migrant workers and drugs and
whatever other new weapons or. Why the push though to move it
in the Intel? Because we got to have, we got
to have some national security investigations to justify the
job that you have in this place where they put you, you're
there. There must be work for you
because we assigned you to it. So let's create some work for
it. And so that's the same reason
why I showed up at Washington Field and end up with, I'm on a
squad where there wasn't enough work for me.
I used to tell my my supervisor I was like a sump pump with no
off switch. If you don't put any water in,
you just burn the pump out. I was getting bored.
Start looking around, seeing what who's screwing up in the
office and that's what would happen.
It was just like I sit there for hours and hours and hours.
It's only so many hours. You can read the same FISA
material or you can read the same, you know, emails back and
forth between something or read the old case files.
If there's nothing that you can do on it and there's sometimes
nothing you can do on it. And if they won't let you go
interview your subject, close it because that's what has to
happen. You got to get approval.
People interview that guy, then you're just sitting there, you
know, and it's like, OK, so you might as well open some cases.
I've had friends tell me they got no problems, Friends,
acquaintances, whatever it may be, they got no problem opening
cases on these, you know, neo Nazis or whatever it is, even
though the things they're doing are 100% First Amendment
protected. And that's really the, this is
where I get really hot about it because I'm a, I'm a civil
rights activist. I guess at heart when it comes
down to everyone should have the same ability to be a jerk.
But you're allowed to be a moron.
You. It's part of the American right.
You can't break the. Law, but you're allowed to be
an. Idiot, as long as you're not
threatening people or trying to execute some sort of violence on
them, you know, having terrible ideas is kind of an American,
right? It's sort of a thing that this
found like we're a revolutionary nation in that way.
And moreover, the only type of speech, and I've heard Ben
Shapiro say something similar to this, it's like the only type of
inflammatory or the only type of speech that needs protection is
inflammatory speech. Like like, ho hum Melo, our
conversation back and forth does not need protection.
Nobody cares, right? It's when you start saying wild
things, you go out there and you make claims against racial
groups or you start saying you, you hate certain people for
certain reasons that are wrong. OK, fine.
Like let's expose that. But the idea every single one of
these Bureau caveats, they'll always put a caveat there.
They're like, you know, the FBI doesn't initiate an
investigation just because of First Amendment protected
activities. But don't worry about that
because we're going to tell you a whole bunch of stuff we need
you to go look into. So that's.
Not how it actually. Works well.
I've never seen anybody have that stop them.
And and the ones that do, if you push back, I mean you close the
case. That's kind of weird.
Like the Bill of Rights doesn't actually stop anyone.
It's kind of like isn't ethical to a constitutional Republic
when you say. Yeah, that the.
Whole idea of the Bill of Rights is to stop over intrusive
government, correct? And you're telling me there's
there's, there's loopholes around?
It well, think about why criminal investigation, there
has to be an allegation or the information that you have
committed a crime or that crime is committed and then somebody
did it. We'll go find out, right?
So we got the crime, we can go find the bad guy.
We got the bad guy who did some crime, we can go find more
crimes. That's criminal.
That's nothing to do with intelligence.
Does this go back to the beginning of the of the first
episode here when you had told me how This is why the FBI has
fallen in love with being an intelligence organization rather
than because they can almost do whatever they want?
It doesn't. They don't have the same type of
standards because the goals are not the same as what people
would anticipate. It's why it's incongruous in so
many people's mind. And here's the real problem.
FBI agents are a specific federal category of employment.
They're 1811, right? 1811.
You can look up what the job criteria is online.
It's out there, it's on OP Ms. website and it and it's criminal
investigator. There's no such thing as a
special agent. A special agent is a title
that's given to you by your agency, but your job is that
you're a criminal investigator. That's right.
So if you're a criminal investigator and you're not
looking for crimes, why why are you doing that?
Like, why don't we just have Intel people looking for Intel
stuff and if they see something that looks criminal, they throw
it over the guy that's doing that in a lot of ways.
And I've had many people tell me this and it goes, you know, deep
and wide, FBI wide. And I think that you were citing
a piece the other day on your show about it.
But it's like, I think Director Mueller did the did the one
thing he didn't know it, but it's a fatal wound.
I like to describe people like when I was first working in a
skiff, I told people, I said the FBI is a it's a hammer with a
screwdriver welded on top of it, right.
And one of those is law enforcement and one of those is
intelligence. And they're both really
unwieldy. Like nobody wants to swing a
hammer that's got some counterweight that doesn't make
any sense. You can't get there.
You can't get close enough to the wall to hit certain things,
whatever. And that screwdriver, super
awkward to try to turn and get in there and move something
because it's got this heavy, you know, dongle of a, of a, of a
hammer on it. When you have this sort of two
things that are antithetical to each other welded together,
you're going to the mission doesn't work.
Like one of them's going to win. That's a biblical piece if you
think about it, right? Like no man can serve 2 masters
and you can't be an intelligence agency that does law enforcement
or in a law enforcement agency that does intelligence.
I don't think they can exist. They have to.
I think that mission has to be separated.
We always debate, you know, is the, is the Bureau model good or
is it, you know, the MI5MI6 model good?
And I've met some folks from over there.
We did some, you know, operations with them.
I think they figured it out better.
I don't know. You don't want to give the Brits
any credit where they don't need it, but.
The same beef with I mean, I wrote a book about this.
I think the Secret Service has made flaws doing investigations
and protection. They like to claim one benefits
the other, but in reality it doesn't.
They're different missions. Yeah, I mean, you got to do a
protection assignment post and the AUSA needs you to testify.
You can't be in two places at once, right?
AUSA gets pissed off, doesn't want to work cases with the
Secret Service. This is real.
Let me ask your opinion on a couple other things.
That Wall Street Journal piece you'd mention they had Tom Baker
wrote, it's a good piece, said that Mueller after 911 shows up
at Camp David, he's with George Tenet from the CIA.
George W Bush is just a week after 911 is asking questions
and Tenet has this whole body of information ready to go.
Mueller, who is running at that time, it was still relatively
law enforcement, central organization doesn't have that
kind of information. George W looks at him, says you
need to be more like George Tenet here.
The piece indicates that from that point, Mueller decided to
centralized everything in headquarters and became an
intelligence organization from that point on.
But that's kind of led to all these problems we're talking
about that kind of come full circle to the beginning.
I think so. Where guys like yourself wear
field guys wear boots literally in this case and have done
investigative work. Military background.
They hired you for a reason. You're subordinated to a
headquarters guy. 2-3 years in the jobs never done anything is
hoping for a political promotion next.
You're just, you're just a piece in their puzzle At that point.
You're not really an asset anymore other than if if you
don't fit their political narrative, I guess is where I'm
going. There's two things that I
remember. One of them is one of the senior
guys I worked with who since retired, told me that watching
the Bureau go after the Domestic Intelligence Mission after 911
was like watching a dog run down a hubcap or, you know, a car
chasing the hubcaps. And when he catches it, I don't
know what to do with it because it's a car and he's a dog.
And it's like, this doesn't make any sense.
It's not what I'm built to do. Like I got it.
I'm like, all right, now what? And that was the, that was the
attitude he said he experienced very dramatically.
That was #1 The second thing is there's a weird cultural thing
and the Bureau culture, it's famously bad internally,
management wise. There's books written about it,
like one of the books somebody gave me my first a couple weeks,
they drop on my desk, they go here, you should read this.
It's like the FBI, they eat their own retired agent wrote
it. It's terrible.
It's a terrible story, but it's accurate, right?
It's just, it's absolutely carnivorous in there.
Anybody that's going to climb has got to get up.
And the crazy thing is once they get to a certain level, and it's
probably over the 14, but at the 15 level, above everybody below
you, they only exist to get me to the next rung.
That's how it's looked at. So you talk about being a cog in
somebody else's political game. It's it's not political
necessarily. Even that's the craziest thing
about it. It's really hard to grasp
because it feels very, you know, the action may be overtly
political and may have political implications, but a lot of it, I
think it's just selfishness. It's just, it's one guy looking
down and going. Everybody here, you know, I work
my butt off to get to this spot and their job is to push me up.
So they step on all the heads to get to the next rung, whatever
that may be. Everybody else be damned.
If that means, you know, I had people legitimately tell me that
the culture of the FBI promotes doing a disciplinary action
against a one of your subordinates within your first
year of being a supervisor because it shows strength.
So there's a goal. And, and I have friends who have
been victims of this. Like I had a guy that he was
ready to get off probation in my office.
I won't name him, but he was a cop.
He's a good dude. And if he hears this, I still
think he's a good dude. And and I thought he was really
brave. He he figured it out right away.
You know, he was a cop. He didn't have any.
He didn't have the nonsense that some of us saw.
He sat in a training exercise. I look over, I say, you're not
carrying a gun. He goes, this job doesn't
require a gun. I used to do a job that carried
a gun. This one doesn't deserve me
carrying. It's not worth it.
Why? I just leave it in my car while
I leave it at home. I carry it when I'm on my own
time, but not here. This is very safe.
And he was correct. You know, he was a cop.
He knew what was up. He worked in, he worked in
Maryland and they fired him. He was forced to resign on his
last day of probation where they can remove you for no reason at
all. There's no 'cause required.
That's that two year probation. And he was a cop, not a military
guy. So we didn't get the shortened
1. And he got removed because
someone said, and it's a famous Bureau e-mail, it's gone around,
everyone's seen it. It's called beware the acting
SSA. He got fired because this gal
said who was acting, she was the acting supervisor for the day,
not for a long time for the day. She said I wouldn't go to court
dressed like that if I were you. He was wearing a shirt and a tie
and slacks and dress shoes, and he was going to an initial
appearance, which you and I know the case agent might be there,
and freaking flip flops, Yeah, jeans, throwing up shirt,
whatever he did. She's doing an arrest.
Yeah, you just pulled some guy in.
You're going to drag him in front of a this?
Isn't a planned? Testimony.
No, he's not in. He's not preparing to be there.
He's in the gallery, so no one cares.
They don't even know who he is. He's just a guy with a tie on.
He looks fine. There were three guys that went
over there. All three of them got
disciplinary action. One of them was forced to
resign. I don't know what happened to
the third because he wouldn't, he wouldn't close to me, but I'm
sure something terrible. And then my other good friend
got two weeks on the bricks, no pay.
For an initial. Appearance over an initial
appearance over over a speculation.
I wouldn't go, you know, some sort of speculative
hypothetical. I wouldn't go to court like that
if I were you when they came back.
Where were you when we went to court?
We had to go. And you have to go to court to
see certain amount of undertakings in your first year
or two. You got to check the boxes.
I saw an initial appearance. I was at initial appearance.
If you don't have enough arrest when you're an Intel guy, you
don't have any arrests at all. You're just sitting there and
watching somebody else do it. So.
What I'm getting from this is so you're telling me that once you
get past this GS15 level and into the senior executive
Service ranks, which is government wide, not just the F,
correct? 100%.
The pay scale. There's an actual financial
motive for you to comply with headquarters type edicts.
You can make more money for doing what they'd like you to
do. So does the wink and the nod
then come from these? SES is down to SACS special
agent charges in the field, the special agents in charge in the
field office where they're saying, hey, we're looking up.
We've been told by the administration that this
domestic violent extremism thing is a really big deal.
Is it like a wink and a nod? How does it get down to you that
we really need to reprioritize some of this stuff?
And yeah, so it comes to the GS15, The 15 tells the 14, the
14 says, hey, we got to bump these numbers up, we got to go
open some. So you got to go open some.
That's what you got to do. So.
Even if they're not there, you got to like.
You got to maybe you double coat it, right?
It's like, yeah, maybe the guy robbed a bank, but also he's got
a Confederate flag in his backyard that seems like, you
know, I don't know. I don't know.
I haven't opened anything like that.
I can't do that. That's one of the things I know
I'm not going to be able to do. And, and, and there are people
who have gone to the mat for this and they refuse to do it.
There's no. Question, but you're not the
only one. Who's no, absolutely not, but.
The pressure is real. The pressure is real, It exists,
it's out there and there's pushback.
But I would say that once you get to the senior executive
level, this is, you know, we have 5 at at Washington field
office. New York has 5 or 6, whatever it
is, this X number of divisions. Los Angeles has a bunch.
They have they have another, they have an SES 2 above them
and and assistant director in charge on the big ones.
But most field offices have one SESI think by the time you get
there, man, you've been doing this 20 years, you're on you're
on the program. Like there's nobody out there.
That's I don't know if they're pushing back.
I got to hope they are. I'd love for one of them to come
step four. They have the ability to come
out and speak for themselves so. If the SES is were to push back
the senior executive members of the service and the FBI there,
you'd have a far different agency because that's their
entire management cadre, right? So.
They used to say that they were like little Dukes of their own
fiefdom or whatever it is, or little principalities.
They really in theory should be. But I think the centralization
has gotten more complete. Probably back in Mueller's day,
it was not the case where the SES had a lot of power and lot
of discretion. They still are doing their own
thing when it comes to their interpretation of policy for a
lot of stuff when it comes to these metrics, when it comes to
the types of investigation. As far as I can tell, and this
is polling literally hundreds. You know, I'm not just pulling
it for me, but it's hundreds in almost every field office that
we've got. I don't know anyone that we
don't have represented in this group.
I, it's, it's everyone's on the same sheet of music.
That way. It's like it's been centralized
to the point where and you got to remember that, you know, the
SAC that the, the, the sack, that's a, it's a SES one.
They're at the bottom of that food chain.
You know what I mean? They're at the new food chain,
but they're at the bottom of it. We covered a lot of material,
the Edu threat tag, domestic violent extremism push, January
6th, January 6th, change and everything.
The fascination with intelligence, your career, what
happened to you, the vaccine mandate.
I want to close with this. The Mar a Lago raids been a
particular interest to me. Of course, it's unprecedented.
I mean literally without precedent.
We've never done this before, regardless of anyone's personal
politics. There have been paperwork
disputes about this in the past. I'm not asking you to comment on
the politics at all, But when FBI agents, specifically
Christopher Wray and the management staff that
unquestionably are briefed in a high profile case like this, do
you think it even occurs to them that they're partaking in an act
that's so overtly political and has a chance to change the
politics of the United States moving forward for the negative?
You know what? You think they're saying that
Merrick Garland and DOJ, hey, maybe this isn't a good idea?
Or is it just we're going to be loyal little soldiers here and
do what you tell us to do? I I don't want to speculate on
anyone else's motivation. I know what I look at, right?
I've got friends that I don't I don't speak to after that.
I assume they were part of it. It's like, I don't know what
happened, but you guys forgot to throw the BS flag on that.
You asked me to go raid President Obama's house.
You asked me to go raid President Bush's house.
It's not happening. I'm sorry it's not happening.
I'm not doing that. And I'm going to probably be
pretty vocal. That's probably going to be my
last day. It's not going to happen.
So we had a lot of people that said yes.
And I think that so much compliance got done.
We talked briefly. Here's here's what all kind of
shares my last kind of concern. Every single FBI agent has to go
to the Holocaust Museum for a full day when we're in the
Academy and they have a special program.
I don't know if you've ever been to it, but it's well worth your
time. If you're a law enforcement
officer, you should definitely go go through the Holocaust
Museum and see the piece they do for law enforcement specific.
It's a walking tour. It's looking through the lens of
how did this atrocity take place, and the only way it takes
place is minor government officials are on board and local
law enforcement and state law enforcement and federal law
enforcement has to say yes, because if anybody refused to
get with the program, it doesn't happen.
And the answer, I'm just following orders.
The Nuremberg piece, it doesn't, it doesn't fly.
We know better. Like that's the whole point of
history. We're supposed to be able to see
that. That's why every agent has to go
to that that day. We're supposed to know that if
they ask you to do something that's illegal, immoral, or
unethical, following orders is not an excuse.
It's not an excuse for me. You can't tell me to go get a
vaccine that I'm not going to go get.
It goes against my moral principles.
I'm not doing it. You can do whatever comes next.
You can ask me to do a search warrant.
That's not right. I'm not going to go do it
because it fundamentally changes the fabric of this country.
It's it changes the game. It puts people in play in the
political, you know, arena that shouldn't be law enforcement
shouldn't be in the political arena.
Number one, I think we can all agree on that.
I think most Americans would stand behind that of all, of all
political inklings. And the second piece is, is we
don't go after our former leaders and we don't go after
the opposition leader. That's Banana Republic stuff.
Everyone said it. I know you've said it too.
It gets me heated to a level that I can't stand.
And it's one of the reasons why when you made your appeal on
your radio show or you might have done it on your podcast,
it's like, it's like, it's like America is in jeopardy.
I, I agree and I don't want my children to grow up in a world
where that's the barrel they're looking down.
I don't want my daughter to have to show up and take a pregnancy
test every month because it's really disruptive.
But we've already already taken the COVID test every week.
So why wouldn't it be a pregnancy test?
I don't want my son to have to take STD tests because he was
out with a weekend and sometimes guys meet girls.
I don't think that's reasonable. I won't go down that line
because I can see a straight path to it.
And I think everybody that's honest that goes through that
museum and looks at all the, you know, the, all the shoes that
still smell like the people that were wearing them, you know, and
there's thousands of them in there.
It's it changes your perspective on the entire world on how law
enforcement has a absolute responsibility to refuse things
that are wrong. And we can't do it.
We can't do it and have America survive the way that we grew up.
And I don't want to be part of it so.
Oh, you're right. I mean, I said today on the
show, and I guess we can leave it here, that even the president
of the United States doesn't have the power to take your life
or take your freedom. GS1811, FBI agents, Secret
Service agents, DEA. They do.
It's a massive power. And it's.
I have to tell you, it's really refreshing to see guys like
yourself speak out. It's been an honor to talk to
you. Kyle, thanks a lot for your
time. I know the audience appreciates.
Yeah, I. Appreciate the opportunity.
Thanks folks for tuning in. I really appreciate it.
I'm don't have a lot to add to that.
I've just been kind of a little bit overwhelmed.
Thanks for tuning in. Thanks for listening to the Kyle
Seraphin Show. Be sure to follow him on Twitter
and Truth at Kyle Seraphin.