1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,040 Prepared to hear the truth from a real whistleblower and 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,560 American patriot? Here's civil liberties 3 00:00:05,560 --> 00:00:08,680 enthusiast, Second Amendment defender, and indefinitely 4 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,720 suspended FBI agent Kyle Serafin. 5 00:00:12,040 --> 00:00:14,600 Well welcome back to the Sunday Seraphin Kyle's getting some 6 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,120 rest after a hard week. Thanks to everybody who 7 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,360 continues to donate to the Give Send. 8 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,600 Go with your prayers and donations like this one here 9 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,200 from Anonymous who wrote from an 1811158 who repeatedly refused 10 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,280 orders to apply for an SES and sell my soul. 11 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:31,040 Keep up the righteous fight brother. 12 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,160 I was constantly accused of not being a team player by my SAC 13 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,800 who ended up serving over six years with the Bureau of 14 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,320 Prisons. His unethical behavior was known 15 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,680 and ignored for years. Do not give it up doing the 16 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:44,960 right thing. Thanks for your kind words 17 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,520 there. Also, Please remember to give 18 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,480 the Kyle Serif and show a five star review like this one 19 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:54,480 written by M Bengiel. You were chosen for such a time 20 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:56,160 as this. Hey Kyle, let me start by saying 21 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,160 I really appreciate the work you do and all the dirt that you 22 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,480 have helped to uncover. I know some is first hand and 23 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,319 others you're just the conduit by which the message spreads. 24 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,160 But without your courage and without the courage of several 25 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,160 others I've been hearing on your show, none of this would be 26 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,680 exposed. And just as Esther's cousin told 27 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,760 her in the Bible, in Esther 414, you were chosen for such a time 28 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:19,720 as this. So I'm sending prayers your way 29 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,000 and towards the other whistleblowers and I know you 30 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,240 all will expose the corruption. Thank you all sincerely 31 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,120 appreciate those kind words. If you'd like to hear a five 32 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,720 star review written by you from the Kyle Seraphin Show, then do 33 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,320 so and maybe we'll send it out here on the podcast. 34 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,240 Also a reminder, if folks would like to wait about two months to 35 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,800 receive a T-shirt, they can go check out the Kyle 36 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:42,880 surfandshow.com for all our merch. 37 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:45,800 It's all in there. I just recently got mine after 38 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,160 two months. If you're patient and you'd like 39 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,080 to help support the show, feel free to place your order there. 40 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,320 Finally, Kyle appeared with friend of the show Steve Friend, 41 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:57,000 author of the new book True Blue. 42 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,400 They have both appeared on the Kimberly Guilfoyle Show, which 43 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,040 you'll hear in a little bit. But if you'd like to order 44 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,680 Steve's book, there's a link in the description box below. 45 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,000 So go check that out. All right, on to the podcast. 46 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,320 Let's bring in Kyle Serafin. He's the FBI whistleblower who 47 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,920 helped expose government censorship of our First 48 00:02:15,920 --> 00:02:18,560 Amendment rights. What did you think about this 49 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,200 hearing today? It's kind of a comedy routine, 50 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,240 wasn't it? I mean, you saw that Matt Taibbi 51 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,040 and Schaumburg were in there. They're just getting accosted. 52 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,120 And at least they were having a little bit of fun with it. 53 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:30,640 They got accused of being in a threesome. 54 00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:33,640 And we got to find out that members of Congress have no idea 55 00:02:33,640 --> 00:02:35,160 who are doing the reporting in this country. 56 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:36,640 So that's also kind of illuminating. 57 00:02:36,640 --> 00:02:38,160 Yeah. The reporters were laughing at 58 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,840 the members of Congress who didn't even know what was up and 59 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,800 what was down. Did you think that the reporters 60 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:49,280 cared more about the subject of the hearing, or do they care 61 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,960 more about finding out what their sources were? 62 00:02:54,640 --> 00:02:57,440 I think that the Democrat goal. Right now is to. 63 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,240 Attack the messenger because they're not able to go after the 64 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,560 allegations in any way, shape or form that's credible. 65 00:03:02,640 --> 00:03:04,720 And it's the same thing they've been doing to FBI whistleblowers 66 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,200 for, you know, for that matter. They just go after they try to 67 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,680 make personal attacks. They, you know, they, they refer 68 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:11,480 to them as so-called journalists, which is kind of 69 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,280 rich coming from the, the ranking member there who is kind 70 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,400 of a so-called congresswoman. She can't even vote in Congress. 71 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:19,760 You know, she actually is sort of fits that definition. 72 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:21,800 Yeah, it looks like she was reading off of notes that her 73 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,880 staff are prepared for her. Do the Democrats feel guilty 74 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,560 about collaborating with the FBI, the CIA, to censor things 75 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,680 that ended up being true? It doesn't appear that way. 76 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:35,840 They're double down on it. So, you know, I just try to take 77 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,520 the actions as they come and, and the actions appear that not 78 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:40,520 only do they not feel guilty about it, they're they're going 79 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:42,600 to go out there and try to make sound bites on it. 80 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:44,640 And maybe they'll make it on MSNBC. 81 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,080 And maybe they'll get a couple more votes or maybe they'll 82 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,200 raise some more dollars in their fundraising campaign saying that 83 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,720 the Republicans are really mean and they have all these mean 84 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:53,200 people that want to say true things. 85 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,000 And Kyle? Is the FBI going to get away 86 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:56,640 with this? I mean, looks like the FBI was 87 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,960 pretty heavy-handed when it came to censorship before the 88 00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:03,200 election. Yeah, It's worth noting that the 89 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,560 FBI is sort of handling Twitter, and I'm sure they handled some 90 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,880 of the other social media, kind of the way that you handle a 91 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,160 source when you are working in law enforcement. 92 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:12,840 You give them kind of a carrot and a stick. 93 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,680 And what we saw there was that the carrot was you could be part 94 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:18,519 of the intelligence community, and we'll bring you in and we'll 95 00:04:18,519 --> 00:04:20,640 tell you secrets and we'll give you a secret backdoor. 96 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,960 And then the stick was is that Senator Mark Warner said, you 97 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:25,840 know, we're going to punish you with some regulations that'll 98 00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:27,840 probably be expensive and costly, so you might as well 99 00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:29,480 come along. So I don't think the FBI has 100 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,120 been disincentivized. They actually got a bigger 101 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,280 budget this year. They got another $1.5 billion on 102 00:04:34,280 --> 00:04:36,640 the bottom line. And that sounds like that's more 103 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:38,160 encouragement from my end. All right. 104 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,440 Any update on your whistle blower situation? 105 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,080 No, I expect to be attacked for the foreseeable future. 106 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:47,600 OK. At least you're realistic. 107 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,120 Thanks so much, Kyle. Yeah. 108 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:54,640 Appreciate it, Jesse. So, Kyle, you were an FBI agent 109 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,600 and a very good one at that. We discussed at length some of 110 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,800 the issues with the January 6th investigation in the past. 111 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,800 But given that this material was exposed, these new videos last 112 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,640 night in the Tucker Carlson show, I find this stuff pretty 113 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:10,560 devastating. Kyle. 114 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,520 I mean, we can all agree that, you know, January 6th, we'd all 115 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:14,920 like to change a lot of things, right? 116 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,040 No one's saying that with some textbook example of what a 117 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:19,920 protest should look like. Point stipulate. 118 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,720 I've addressed it over and over, but Kyle, based on my objective 119 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,480 reading of the situation, it was not an insurrection, and some of 120 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,920 the videos that aired last night appear to back up that point. 121 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:34,920 Yeah, 100%. So I mean, for those of us who 122 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:36,920 have been following this for a while and been watching it, 123 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,520 there was always video like even like in the days right 124 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,040 afterwards showing, you know, doors being opened by Capitol 125 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:43,920 Police, people letting, you know, Capitol Police letting 126 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,440 them walk by and not creating a human blockade with their, you 127 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,160 know, with the officers and Shields and stuff like that. 128 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,160 So there were places that people obviously got let in. 129 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:51,920 We always saw people milling about. 130 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:53,680 There was always an understanding of that. 131 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,080 And some of that footage is not even unfamiliar to me. 132 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,160 So I know that it was kind of groundbreaking to people that 133 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,520 maybe hadn't been following this and kind of just been looking 134 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:03,320 for the distance. But for those of us that have 135 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:04,800 been looking at it from the beginning and have talked to 136 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:06,840 police officers who showed up and responded and things like 137 00:06:06,840 --> 00:06:10,160 that, it just wasn't, you know, there's two things that 138 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:11,240 happened. And you're correct. 139 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,480 It was a there was a riot and things got spicy in some areas. 140 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,760 And there's no doubt that people got hurt and property got 141 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:18,360 destroyed. And then there were also a bunch 142 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,360 of people that were just wandering around and taking 143 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,680 brochures and taking selfies in front of things that they were 144 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,120 really excited to see that they'd never seen before because 145 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,520 that's not unnecessarily an area they would go to NTC. 146 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:29,920 So that doesn't mean they did it, right? 147 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:32,480 It just means it wasn't like there's, there's no invisible 148 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:34,360 ink on the back of the Constitution that says, you 149 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,080 know, if you happen to get your guy who's wearing a Viking 150 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,160 helmet into the seat on the floor of the House, then you 151 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:41,840 take over the government. That's not part of the rules, 152 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:47,200 right? And Kyle, I'll begin with you. 153 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,480 Why did you decide? Because people always want to 154 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,640 know kind of the motivation, the process, because you have to 155 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:54,440 think about a lot of things, how it's going to affect your 156 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,600 family, your life. Why did you decide to become a 157 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,640 whistleblower? I'm. 158 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:01,520 Not sure that I had a long decision about it. 159 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:03,840 I got the, the e-mail that was forwarded on from another 160 00:07:03,840 --> 00:07:06,160 supervisor in my office. It wasn't, you know, designated 161 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:07,440 to come down to the front line agents. 162 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:09,640 And when I read it, I immediately thought there was a 163 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:11,240 problem with it. And I made an appointment with 164 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,240 my congresswoman's office, who is the vet Herald in the Second 165 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:16,760 District, New Mexico. And a couple days later, I 166 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:18,720 showed up in the office, sat down with her law enforcement 167 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,880 liaison and community community outreach coordinator. 168 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,360 And I did about. Three hours of describing some 169 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,840 of the problems with the FBI. That was one of them. 170 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:28,560 They were a bunch more, unfortunately, because at that 171 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:33,280 time we had 10,000 Afghan refugees that were in two 172 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,800 different military bases in our little area of responsibility. 173 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,120 And so I saw a bunch of things that were going wrong there too. 174 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,280 As you can imagine, I brought them just a whole host of 175 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:41,560 issues. That's the one that took off and 176 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:43,040 went to Jim Jordan's office in a big way. 177 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,400 But there's a lot of things that go wrong in the FBI at this 178 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,160 point. Yeah, And tell us a little bit 179 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,840 about the background, you know, your career, your time at the 180 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,920 FBI. So I, I joined the FBI when I 181 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:54,720 was 35, which is a little later than most. 182 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:56,760 I'd served in the military. I was in the Air Force when I 183 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,400 was in my late 20s. Before that, I had done finance 184 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,960 at a movie studio and I'd run restaurants and I'd work for 185 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:03,600 Dell computers and did corporate sales. 186 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,040 And I did a whole bunch of other kind of like regular guy jobs 187 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,520 and then kind of ended up in the FB is space with a lot more 188 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:12,320 experience than many of my Quantico classmates. 189 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:14,640 I was 10 years older than than a handful of them. 190 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,040 And you know, you just have a different sense of what's right 191 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:19,320 and wrong. I think if you haven't more 192 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:20,720 experience in the world, which I did. 193 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,000 And as that kind of went on, it led me to work five years with 194 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,760 the Washington field office. I, I did 2 years of 195 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:28,960 counterintelligence work working against the Chinese threat, 196 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,960 which is obviously significant. I spent three years on a, a 197 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,200 specialty surveillance team that did a little bit of everything. 198 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,360 So I got to taste a little bit of all the bureau's kind of 199 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:38,760 flavors. We did some counterterrorism 200 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:40,960 work is kind of a, a very specific specialty. 201 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,799 And then I did a bunch of white collar and drugs and gangs and 202 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:46,200 like you name it, I've got a little bit of everything out 203 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:47,400 there. And then I just tried to get out 204 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,160 of the politics of it. And I ended up New Mexico for a 205 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:50,400 year. And that's when I got into the 206 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,640 politics of it for real, which was doing this whistleblower 207 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:54,600 thing. So it's kind of a God has a 208 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:55,960 different plan than what I did, obviously. 209 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:57,840 Absolutely. He always does. 210 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,800 So talk to us a little bit more about what you saw that shocked 211 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:03,920 your conscience and made you want to speak out that you said, 212 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,480 wow, this is outrageous and something needs to be done about 213 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,440 it. So I brought the the things to 214 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:13,240 my congresswoman's attention and then the retribution against me 215 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,760 was really significant. And this also combined with some 216 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:17,720 of the things that went on with the COVID mandates that 217 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:19,520 happened. I'm a pro-life guy. 218 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,760 I'm a lifelong Catholic and, you know, come and go on from the 219 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:24,000 church. But at this point, my wife and I 220 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,360 are, are steadfast in it. It's just been reassuring our 221 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:28,120 faith. So it's kind of a weird thing to 222 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:30,200 see when you're being targeted for your faith, you're. 223 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:31,880 Being targeted for doing what? You're told is the right thing 224 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:33,920 to do, which is call out when there's a misstep. 225 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,160 And the misstep that I specifically called out was not 226 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,080 that the FBI was going to be investigating parents. 227 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,880 It's what appeared to be lies by the attorney general in front of 228 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:42,680 Congress. So that was a, you know, an 229 00:09:42,680 --> 00:09:44,400 allegation of perjury that I brought forward. 230 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,840 And the, you know, the FBI just came at me all the way. 231 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:49,480 They kicked me out of the office. 232 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,760 They put me on a wall, which I didn't even know as a thing for 233 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,240 civil servants. And then when they did let me 234 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,200 come back in, they stripped me of all my duties, my 235 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,000 responsibilities. They put literally put me in a 236 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,000 corner. I sat in a corner for six weeks 237 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,160 with no cases. And even though they called me 238 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,040 an insider threat, which is to say like a traitor or a 239 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,520 potential spy. They moved me from a criminal 240 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:11,040 job to a national security squad, assigned me no cases, and 241 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:12,760 then eventually pulled my security clearance, kicked me 242 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,640 out, took my paycheck. And you know, at that point I 243 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,640 ended up going to talk to Dan Bongino about it all because you 244 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,040 only really have one court that you can go to as a whistle 245 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:22,480 blower. It turns out as a federal 246 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:24,720 whistle blower, you've got to go to the court of public opinion, 247 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,160 which is why we're we're talking right now is I just made a 248 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,280 decision that this is America's information and it's not mine. 249 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,840 And I'm not going to let the FBI steamroll me and my family. 250 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,200 Yeah, absolutely. It is America's information well 251 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,440 stated. It's just disgraceful that 252 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,760 you're doing your job, you're honoring your country, and they 253 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,160 tried to destroy you, destroy your family, take your 254 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,280 livelihood, ostracize you within their own agency. 255 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,960 Were there any conversations with some of your your coworkers 256 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,920 or superiors there that you felt were really, you know, 257 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,960 inappropriate and really showed the bias that they had? 258 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,560 Yes and no. So when it was all going on and 259 00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:03,680 I was still in the office, I got kind of this feedback. 260 00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:05,400 Like, you know, I don't think this is that big a deal and this 261 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:06,760 shouldn't be a thing. And you know, you're going to 262 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:08,200 come back to work and it's going to be fine. 263 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,120 And that was my immediate supervisor on the second squad I 264 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,360 was on. But the, the real telling thing 265 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,600 is that I had colleagues that were apparently testifying 266 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,720 behind my back to the equal opportunity investigators and 267 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:20,880 saying, you know, all these wild things about me, that I was 268 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:22,480 either racist, sexist or homophobic. 269 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:23,720 They couldn't pinpoint which one. 270 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,080 But I was one of those things, obviously, which led me to 271 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:28,920 believe that I really wasn't pushing the envelope because I 272 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,120 obviously could have been transphobic and xenophobic too, 273 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,320 if I was really ambitious. So I missed out on some 274 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:35,280 opportunities. That's exactly right. 275 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,240 So, you know, and then the real telling part is after you get 276 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,320 kicked out of the office like that, the number of people that 277 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,400 have reached out to me from the FBI is very, very, very small, 278 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:44,560 at least in the office that I was in. 279 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:47,000 There's really only one guy in that office that I still am able 280 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:48,600 to speak to because they just don't speak to me. 281 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:50,880 That being said, people that I've known throughout my time, 282 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,160 you know, in Washington, DC and stuff, we're still in a good 283 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:56,200 contact and they know my character and we spend a lot of 284 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:57,840 time working together. So I hear from them. 285 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,760 But it is telling that the people in the office really got 286 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,520 chilled and, and, you know, probably felt the fear of God of 287 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:05,160 losing their own paycheck and pension. 288 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,240 So they kind of just. Yeah, you know, loyal to the 289 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,160 paycheck, right? They're thinking, OK, if I do 290 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,280 anything like this or if I associate with him, that 291 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:13,520 something's going to happen to me. 292 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:15,160 It's it's awful. It's. 293 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,480 We call it the golden handcuff. The golden handcuff. 294 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,640 OK, yeah, it's a kind of a lonely place to be, I have to 295 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:21,680 say, right? And then. 296 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,080 But then you've got other individuals that come out and 297 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,560 speak out, which is great. And Steve, I want to follow up 298 00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:29,600 on with you on that. Talk about your career and tell 299 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:33,640 the folks like what it means you know for you when you became an 300 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,720 FBI agent and the process that you went through and especially 301 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,400 as it relates to the threat tags with the January 6th 302 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,760 investigations. Well, thank you very much. 303 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,360 I joined the FBI a couple years before Kyle did. 304 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,520 I was initially sent to the Midwest where I worked for seven 305 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,520 years on Indian reservations, and that's sort of relevant to 306 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,480 my journey because it gave me a lot of repetitions on case 307 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:58,880 management. I opened up about 200 cases in 308 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,760 my time there and then also had the opportunity to go to trial 309 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,400 multiple times, which is pretty unusual for the FBI. 310 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:09,200 So when I eventually relocated my family to Florida in 2021 311 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,000 with the understanding that I was going to be working child 312 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,720 pornography investigations and then subsequently was told that 313 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,160 those were no longer a priority and I needed to focus on 314 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,880 domestic terrorism, AKA January 6th. 315 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:24,640 I brought that background with me and looked at the the cases 316 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,120 and the way that they were being handled and immediately realized 317 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,120 that the FBI is departing from its rules with regard to the 318 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,480 case management. And my initial concern was 319 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,120 essentially, if we will go to trial, I want to win if it's a 320 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,160 righteous case. And so regardless of the 321 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,600 politics of it or what you think happened that day, if the 322 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,160 Department of Justice brings charges, I was taking it on good 323 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,120 faith that they were, you know, they were righteous. 324 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,320 And my fear was that we were not turning over the necessary 325 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,960 exculpatory evidence and advising these defendants about 326 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,800 these atypical practices. And it could come back to bite 327 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,000 us at trial. And essentially, I would wind up 328 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,240 sitting there in front of of a defense attorney and having to 329 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,720 answer, Asian friend, this is your case. 330 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,840 Did you do anything on it? And I would say no. 331 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,080 Yeah, it's, it's an unusual position to find yourself in. 332 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,320 But you know what I think people also want to know, Steve, is how 333 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,680 does this all kind of work inside the Bureau? 334 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,640 Is it coming from the top down? You know, what is the chain of 335 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,440 command? Because honestly, it's terrible. 336 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,080 Like you're an FBI agent. There's been so much, you know, 337 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,000 in the press where people are upset and feel like it's so 338 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,440 politicized. I'm quite sure because the 339 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:35,000 existence of both of you, there are good people inside the FBI. 340 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,800 How is this happening, this level of dysfunction and the 341 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,400 politicization where it's just like these targeted, focused 342 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,800 investigations for a political purpose? 343 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:47,920 I think it's a combination of two things. 344 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,520 I think that there are the true believers and they're bringing 345 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:55,200 these cases because they indeed do view a lot of the right wing 346 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,200 Americans as the threat. But I think a larger component 347 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,840 of that is the integrated program management protocols 348 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,280 that the FBI has for itself. Or think of it as a local Police 349 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,360 Department has a quota for writing traffic tickets. 350 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,680 So essentially they set these metrics themselves to achieve 351 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,880 and those are tied to funding for the FBI as a whole for each 352 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,560 individual field office. And then ultimately for the 353 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,600 senior executive service members who run each field office, their 354 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,600 compensation is tied to hitting these metrics. 355 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:26,560 So it creates an A perverse incentive to generate cases and 356 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,200 certain statistical accomplishments and quantity 357 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,440 over quality and integrity of those cases. 358 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:33,080 Yeah. It's interesting because you 359 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,280 said it, it does provide a perverse incentive because it 360 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,920 sounds like it's sort of a a system where you benefit if you 361 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,520 bring these things forward and in what way they get promotions 362 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,800 etcetera. Because people are then willing 363 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:49,440 to abandon sort of their ethics or morality and just go ahead 364 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,320 and be part of these politicized investigations. 365 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,600 So I think once you're at the senior executive service level, 366 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,400 the rungs are kind of growing short at the top of that. 367 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,760 There's definitely ambition at that rank, but it's really more 368 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:03,920 income to me, at least for the middle management types. 369 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,640 And when you have this political narrative that's something like 370 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,840 January 6th is the largest, most important investigation that's 371 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,240 gone on in the FBI since the Civil War now I guess according 372 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,560 to the Democrats. And you have an ambition to rise 373 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,320 in the ranks and the FBI, you want to sink your teeth and 374 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,880 hooks into that case. So you have individuals who are 375 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,080 just ambitious and they are willing to put their head down 376 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,600 and do what they're told in order to claim that managerial 377 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,000 responsibility and and ultimately promote. 378 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,600 That's like mercenaries, you know, and just regardless of, 379 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,600 you know, the consequences. But you know, honestly, Stephen, 380 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,480 when you think about it, did you like and respect and I'll ask 381 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,280 Kyle the same question, you know, the majority of the men 382 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,480 and women that you worked with in the agency? 383 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,640 Or do you think there's just some serious damage and flaws 384 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,440 there that need to be vastly corrected? 385 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,120 I was very fortunate in my career to work in two offices 386 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,800 that were relatively small, sort of high speed, low drag. 387 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,960 So I shared a lot of sentiments with those individuals where we 388 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,079 just wanted to work and do the good work that was there. 389 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,680 I think though, that there is a cultural gap between the 390 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,839 management and the rank and file agents in the FBI that has just 391 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:13,960 been exposed in the last few years. 392 00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:18,440 And, and there's definitely a lack of connection between those 393 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,960 individuals who just kind of see it as their, their trip on up 394 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:23,680 the ladder. And the, and the other folks 395 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,920 like myself and like Kyle, who just really just joined the job, 396 00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:30,640 joined the FBI to do the job of an FBI agent, not to be promoted 397 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,400 or to retire with a, with a cushy pension. 398 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,040 It was always about the oath of office that we took from the 399 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:37,800 very beginning. It was something that I took 400 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,960 seriously. And, and, and unfortunately it's 401 00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:43,560 I've come to realize that too many people are viewing that 402 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,800 oath of office as being similar to an iPhone user agreement and 403 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:48,800 they just click agree. Unbelievable. 404 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:50,680 That's a that's a very good analogy. 405 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,280 I mean, Kyle, what do you think about what about your personal 406 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,560 experience in working different branches departments that you 407 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,080 did and the men and women that you came across? 408 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,440 So there seems to be kind of two types of agents specifically now 409 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,920 the Bureau has 3738 thousand total employees. 410 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,040 So the agents only make up about 13 or 14,000 of that. 411 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,520 So it's by no means the majority of the the people that actually 412 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,440 work in the FBI. But when you kind of separate 413 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,320 out agents, there's two types. There's ones that want to work 414 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,320 cases and they're generally almost fighting to stay at the 415 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:22,800 bottom. They're like a diver with that 416 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:24,160 won't get, you know, rid of a weight belt. 417 00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:25,760 They're hanging out at the bottom where they can do the 418 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,480 work. They get paid commensurate with 419 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:30,880 even the middle management when they've been there long enough. 420 00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:32,760 So there's no. Real incentive for them to move 421 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,240 into management, at least not financially unless they think 422 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:39,240 that they're going to put this 10 year kind of, you know, trial 423 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,240 on, on their family where they're going to just, you get 424 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,240 bumped around to different possibilities and places. 425 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,760 And, you know, they may have to go back and forth to DC because 426 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,680 I was in DCI, got to see the revolving door that goes between 427 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,680 the Washington Field office and the headquarters building at J 428 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,120 Edgar Hoover Building. And that is a very different 429 00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:56,200 animal altogether. Now, one of my buddies is a 430 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,800 little bit more cynical than I am, said that the a GS15 and the 431 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,480 FBI is someone who's never said no to a bad idea. 432 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:03,600 That's going to be the assistant special agents in charge and 433 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,600 above. And and that makes every single 434 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,600 person who's a senior executive fit into that category. 435 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:09,320 I don't think he's actually wrong anymore. 436 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,320 The more I kind of see it, these people are willing to go along 437 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,160 to get along. They have that golden handcuff. 438 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,400 They're looking to put, you know, another $10,000 a year on 439 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,240 their pension or whatever it looks like they're going to do. 440 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,480 If they can get a $30,000 bonus for three years in a row, then 441 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,720 they will add $10,000 to their actual pension. 442 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,080 And apparently that's enough for them to, to care about, you 443 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,040 know, making bad decisions or, or not throwing the flag when 444 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,240 there is a bad decision. And in the meantime, you got 445 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,280 guys like Steve who are literally fighting to not become 446 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,840 a supervisor, who are resisting the request for them to put in 447 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:37,680 that package. And they stay there working the 448 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,600 cases until, you know, they're 20 or 25 years mandatory 449 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:42,200 retirement, and then they're out. 450 00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:44,320 They never get a chance to make that management change. 451 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,960 So I do think that there's a kind of a toxic culture and a 452 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,600 reverse incentive for the kind of people that want to be really 453 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,840 good agents. Yeah, that's a shame, you know, 454 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,880 because it used to be an agency people really, you know, 455 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,120 respected and looked up to and I always try to be positive, you 456 00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:02,600 know, find the problem that, you know, bring the solution and 457 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,360 Kyle go to you on this then gets Stevens impression. 458 00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:09,600 But so if the FBI leadership actually really wanted to change 459 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,720 this, you know? Perverse incentivization that 460 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,280 they do and to right these wrongs, what would it look like? 461 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,280 Like what do they need to do to actually fix it? 462 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,320 It's it's probably a really complicated question because 463 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,600 they're not the ones necessarily setting the agenda. 464 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,600 Unfortunately, I think a lot of this stuff was set in motion on 465 00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:32,200 September 11th or September 12th of 2001. 466 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,480 And when the FBI accepted the national security mission and 467 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,520 the domestic, you know, intelligence mission, they 468 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,480 really moved into an intelligence agency that has a 469 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,360 law enforcement capability and that is secret police level 470 00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:46,920 stuff. It didn't, you know, it took 471 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,000 years for that, that culture to take over. 472 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,200 But intelligence communities are very, very different. 473 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,600 Intelligence agencies are different than law enforcement 474 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,400 agencies, and the burden of proof and the standards and the 475 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,440 process, they're all sort of antithetical to each other. 476 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:01,680 And so as you know, as a prosecutor, you would know that 477 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:02,760 you've got to go through certain things. 478 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,520 There's due process, there is discovery. 479 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:06,960 You have to know that all the information you have has to meet 480 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,200 a certain standard if you want to get it, whether it's probable 481 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,040 cause and so on. When it comes to intelligence is 482 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:13,800 a very different animal. They believe that they're 483 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,600 entitled to that information because the mission is good and 484 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:17,920 it's never going to be seen in court. 485 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,480 But when you actually have the ability to take that information 486 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,080 that shouldn't ever be see the light of day in in a court 487 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,360 proceeding and you can reconstruct it under legal 488 00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:28,640 processes. It's it's, I don't know if you 489 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:29,920 can even salvage something like this. 490 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:31,800 And that's why it's so dangerous, because it's so 491 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,960 pervasive that it's probably 60 or 70% of the Bureau is now 492 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,760 intelligence focused. And so, you know, far less of it 493 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,720 is based on the actual law enforcement mission that most 494 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:42,520 Americans have as front of mind awareness. 495 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,040 Thanks for listening to the Kyle Seraphin Show. 496 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,120 Be sure to follow him on Twitter and Truth at Kyle Seraphin.