1 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,040 Welcome to the Everyday PM Podcast, the podcast where we 2 00:00:13,040 --> 00:00:16,040 discuss project management principles for your everyday 3 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,240 life. My name is Anne Campia, I'm the 4 00:00:18,240 --> 00:00:20,920 founder and host of the Everyday PM Podcast. 5 00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:24,600 I've also had the sincere and great opportunity of working as 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,960 a project manager across various industries. 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,520 And I'm very excited to welcome today Matthew, who is a former 8 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,920 federal chief audit executive. He's had executive oversight 9 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,960 over billions of government, billions of dollars in 10 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,440 government projects. He currently helps public 11 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,040 service and nonprofit leaders identify early warning signs in 12 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,440 project management. So we are here today together to 13 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,680 talk about early warning signs, a public sector perspective on 14 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,840 project leadership. So Matthew, welcome to the 15 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:56,960 podcast. And for those who have not met 16 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,280 you yet, net, please take a brief moment to introduce 17 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,480 yourself to our audience. Great. 18 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:02,960 Well, thanks very much for having me in. 19 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,480 It's great to be here. Yeah. 20 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,160 So I spent the first half of my career in project delivery and 21 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:11,680 client services. So it was always on the the 22 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,720 front end stuff. Did that across a number of 23 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,160 different countries. And then what I found myself in 24 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:22,080 the Canadian capital of Ottawa. It was the, you know, the 25 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:23,640 biggest game in town was government. 26 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:28,880 So I naturally found my way into the largest employer there and 27 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,120 through kind of a funny sequence of events, developing learning 28 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,640 programs and networking events and all this type of thing, I 29 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,680 found myself doing that for the audit community, which I knew 30 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:43,360 nothing about. But I dove in head first, feet 31 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,200 first, not sure which which is the case there. 32 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,240 But in any case, I made a good run of it and decided to make a 33 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,640 a bit of a career of it. So I spent the next 15 years in 34 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,520 audit and in oversight as well and covered, yeah, as you 35 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,440 mentioned, huge major projects in a, in a host of different 36 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:04,240 departments and agencies. And one of the things that stuck 37 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:08,840 out to me over and over and over again was that although the 38 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:11,920 audit side would scream you need to pay attention to risk, it's 39 00:02:11,920 --> 00:02:14,320 so important on the project side. 40 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,800 Very often it was seen as a compliance exercise. 41 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,160 So, you know, let's get this done with, let's pop it in the 42 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,320 plan and then let's move on with the real work because that's 43 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,040 where we need to dedicate our energy. 44 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,600 And for me, I because I, I'd experienced both sides of the 45 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,120 fence. I knew that there was value 46 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,400 there. That kind of both were missing. 47 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,120 In a sense, risk management is meant to be a clinical activity. 48 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:39,680 It's really meant to be strategic one. 49 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,120 And let's build that into the leadership trades, leadership 50 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,720 tendencies and try to make sure that we're using it to protect 51 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,200 project ambition and not hold it back. 52 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,680 So that's my mission. That's that's what I try to to 53 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,280 preach to, to all the public sector leaders that I work with. 54 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,520 That's very beautifully said and and outlined there. 55 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,440 You know, the everyday PM audience is we have a plethora 56 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,280 of folks, obviously folks that aren't project managers 57 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,040 whatsoever. This enjoy the podcast. 58 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:12,360 But we also have a wide range of project leaders who are just 59 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,040 starting out their career and kind of then now into that maybe 60 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,440 the tail ends of their careers. So the way that you outline that 61 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,800 makes it feel like auditing, risk, all of those things are 62 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,200 inherently part of every single project, no matter your level 63 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,560 experience, what type of project, and that sort of thing. 64 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,120 So let's talk about the universal nature of project 65 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,800 challenges because you did mention that project management 66 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,440 challenges are universal across all sectors. 67 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,000 Your experience overseeing billions in government projects, 68 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,560 what surprised you the most about how similar these 69 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,160 challenges are between public and private? 70 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,120 And do you have an example that you can share with the audience? 71 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:55,840 Well, I, I'd say that, you know, we always say, especially in 72 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,120 change initiatives, and I mean, most projects are, are change 73 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,800 initiatives of one form or another, whether it's just 74 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,360 introducing a new version or completely redoing something 75 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:05,600 existing or building from scratch. 76 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,600 And you know that the older dodge is that people will be 77 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:11,480 your biggest enablers and they'll be your biggest 78 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,640 detractors, right. So that's, that is going to be 79 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:16,920 the biggest measure of the success is how many champions 80 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,720 you have and how many people, you know, negative announcers 81 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,720 you have that are trying to bring it down to a certain 82 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,760 extent. And so those people elements are 83 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:30,280 so often they're addressed to a certain extent, right? 84 00:04:30,280 --> 00:04:33,360 We, we talk about stakeholder risk or, or something like that, 85 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,480 but it's very high level and we group everyone in the same 86 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,120 bucket. But one of the, the biggest 87 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:44,880 disciplines that, that I find and I teach PMP as well, is how 88 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,120 little attention is paid to, to stakeholder management, not in a 89 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:53,520 general sense, but you know, your stakeholder is not a client 90 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,640 organization because there's, you know, 1000 people there, 500 91 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,200 different jobs, etcetera, etcetera. 92 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:00,480 And they all need different things. 93 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:06,880 So, so missing that key opportunity to not just, you 94 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:08,880 know, coddle people and make sure that they have what they 95 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:12,680 need, but to, to try to breed champions for your project 96 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,240 because that is going to be the biggest unseen risk. 97 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,800 And we can, we can go through all the different people 98 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,880 elements, but I'd say that people in many different 99 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,080 categories end up being the biggest risks for most projects. 100 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,560 And I'd say that that applies public sector, private sector, 101 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,040 big organization, small organization, pretty much across 102 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,960 the board. And, and I love that you bring 103 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:36,960 this up. You know, I, I always, I'm so 104 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,600 fascinated with the evolution, evolution of our role in our 105 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:44,360 industry and that, you know, even just you using terminology 106 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,440 like project leaders over project managers and champions 107 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,560 and that sort of thing. Just in the history of our role, 108 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:56,720 you've seen this emphasis on people and the soft skills are 109 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,760 what PMI, at least Project Management Institute calls the 110 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,120 power skills that are inherent in our role as well. 111 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,120 I love that you talk about it stakeholders first. 112 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:10,240 It's not anything around the traditional iron triangle 113 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:14,480 parameters of a project of time, costs, qualities, whatever that 114 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,680 you know used to be. So in your experience now with 115 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,840 stakeholder engagement and understanding your stakeholders, 116 00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:27,880 do you have any practical tools or tips that you typically go to 117 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:32,480 1st as you're helping others understand how to engage 118 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,280 stakeholders, how to in essence lead them? 119 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,880 And then I guess the the other part of my question is, are 120 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,200 there any early warning signs that folks can spot when it 121 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,480 comes to stakeholder engagement, for example, disengage 122 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,960 stakeholders? Yeah, absolutely. 123 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,240 So when we look at stakeholders and when I talk about 124 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,480 stakeholders as well, you know, we often we're we're talking 125 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,800 about others, right. So maybe it's a partner team, 126 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,160 but you know, it's going to be users or government regulators 127 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,720 or something like that. But stakeholders to me is 128 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:08,720 everyone under the sun. And that's the official 129 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,600 definition, of course, but, but in practice it doesn't often 130 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:14,600 seem that way. So when I say stakeholders, I 131 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:16,920 mean, you know, steering committee, I mean senior 132 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,920 executive leadership, I mean peers, I mean end users, I mean, 133 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:25,040 you know, if IMIT is helping out in a, in a way and you're not 134 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,360 part of that group. So it's pretty much everybody 135 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,440 under the sun, including the project team, of course. 136 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,840 And the, the key, I think, to, to establishing a foundation for 137 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,280 success is understanding their motivations. 138 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,040 And also, it sounds funny, but understanding their 139 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,800 understanding. So how do they see the project? 140 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,320 How do they see it either adding or detracting from their 141 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,280 everyday life? And they might be completely 142 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,560 neutral, but they might be completely neutral right now 143 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,840 and, and not so much when we're ready to, to release or to 144 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,040 implement. So trying to understand where 145 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:05,760 they're coming from because we tend to bucket people into very 146 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,360 specific roles. So if we're looking at seat 147 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,680 steering, committee oversight, executive leadership, most of 148 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:14,680 the time we're trying to get through those conversations 149 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:16,800 right. What reports can I give that 150 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,160 tells a good story and then I can just get out of there. 151 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:23,600 And, you know, uneventful meeting is a is a successful 152 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,600 meeting, but that's to a certain extent. 153 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:28,600 Sometimes that's going to actually just kick the can down 154 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,800 the road. So conversations that were left 155 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,840 unsaid will come back to roost. So do we want to deal with those 156 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,799 early or do we want to have those blow up in our faces down 157 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:40,919 the road? And then the second thing is, of 158 00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:46,280 course, from top level all the way down, we can get things out 159 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,320 of these conversations as well. It's not always about pumping it 160 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,000 information and trying to get them to understand you. 161 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,280 The key element is US understanding them because that 162 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,920 can take us down very intriguing paths. 163 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:03,160 It can open up new types of solutions and like I said that 164 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,800 having these true conversations and unfortunately letting some 165 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:11,600 people vent at us sometimes can release the steam and and start 166 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,520 to build true understanding and and build true support across 167 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:16,680 the board. Yeah, absolutely. 168 00:09:16,680 --> 00:09:20,840 And, and for those who you know, I have, I teach as well, and I 169 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,440 get this a lot from students when we get to this part of PMP 170 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,880 prep, which is, well, I have all these people, I have maybe a 171 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,640 list of 20 people or something on my stakeholder register. 172 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,960 How do I get to know each individual at that level? 173 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:42,440 And so do you have any tips for folks in terms of how to make 174 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:46,280 sure they spend enough time in this area able to gather the 175 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,400 information they need to to, you know, get that insight that you 176 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,160 just just described? And what are some of the things 177 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,280 that have worked for you, maybe some of the things that haven't 178 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,680 worked for you when it comes to gathering information about? 179 00:09:56,680 --> 00:10:01,280 People, yeah. So the I mean, talking about 180 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:05,120 trying to understand and trying to, to, to, to, to build 181 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,160 champions that goes within the team as well. 182 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:11,560 And I'd say that project leaders, if they are trying to 183 00:10:11,560 --> 00:10:15,880 be the face of the project at every turn, they are not only 184 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,320 doing the project, it's a service, but but really wasting 185 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,680 opportunity. So the more that we can empower 186 00:10:21,680 --> 00:10:25,520 our own team to become the external facing champions, the 187 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:26,760 better. So we're going to cover more 188 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,400 people. Our team members are going to 189 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,400 feel that much more vested because it's their project. 190 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:33,840 They're not working for a project. 191 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,520 They own the project, they own the results and we can just 192 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,800 cover so much more ground. And you know, sometimes we do 193 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:45,040 have to categorize people. These types of folks will treat 194 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,360 in this sort of way. It's not going to be a 195 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,760 one-on-one relationship for tons of different people. 196 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,280 I mean, as I said, you know, some of these projects that I've 197 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:58,240 touched to their, their stakeholders ultimately, but 198 00:10:58,240 --> 00:10:59,880 potentially even in the 1,000,000, right? 199 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:01,760 Not even just in the hundreds or thousands. 200 00:11:02,680 --> 00:11:05,920 And so we're going to have one-on-one coffees with a 201 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:07,640 million people. That's not too likely. 202 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:12,080 But, but, but we can try our best to, to try to scale that as 203 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,720 much as we can. And the only way that we can do 204 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,040 it is, is for me to, to recognize that I, I can't be the 205 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:19,640 only one who's talking about this project. 206 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:21,720 And my team is going to be chomping at the bit. 207 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,960 So why not empower them and try to delegate as much as possible? 208 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:27,360 Yeah, absolutely. That's awesome. 209 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,560 I have a question that I've been really eager to ask you and I'm 210 00:11:31,560 --> 00:11:35,680 excited to get to this question now because you're talking about 211 00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:40,120 people engaging with people, empowering your team to also be 212 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:44,080 the champion with you. You stepped into a role that 213 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:49,880 carries a a term or a word that I think, at least in my 214 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:56,160 professional experience, people get nervous around, which is the 215 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,200 word audit. Big A. 216 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:03,040 Yes. And for you to be in that space 217 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,720 and I know when you described your professional journey, you 218 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,080 said, you know, I went into the space not really knowing what it 219 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:13,880 was, if I recall what you said. And so I just think you have 220 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,480 such a unique vantage point when it comes to project leadership 221 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,600 and being in that role. And where my head is going is 222 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,920 how did you get around that notion that audit is kind of 223 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,640 maybe associated with something negative or scary or whatever 224 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,960 those feelings are that conjure up when people hear that word? 225 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,120 And how have you spent your career in this space and, and 226 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:43,920 been able to gain the trust and, and the, you know, the work of 227 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,920 your stakeholders? And I just want to hear more 228 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,200 about that perspective because it's not a space that I 229 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,200 typically play in. And in my experience, it's 230 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,000 always been kind of tied together. 231 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,960 So I'm hoping you can kind of demystify that as well. 232 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,600 Yeah. Well, I mean, I'll say if I'm 233 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,720 going to stumble backwards into the profession, I'm glad I 234 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:06,960 stumbled backwards in the public sector. 235 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:12,440 And the reason that I say that is largely, especially when you 236 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,400 get into larger organizations that are heavily regulated, you 237 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,600 know, even financial or, or anything like that, these 238 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,680 organizations are largely mostly focused on compliance. 239 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,240 They don't need to worry too much about how things are going 240 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,720 because at the end of the day, what is the color of the ink, 241 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:31,920 right? If it's making lots of money, 242 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,680 things are going well. If it's not, things are going 243 00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:36,040 poorly. We might want to figure it out. 244 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:37,600 We might want to leverage some on it for sure. 245 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,400 But the, the predominant driver there is going to be compliance 246 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,840 to A, to a certain extent in the public sector. 247 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:50,080 It does not play so cleanly. Every single organization, I'm 248 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,880 sorry, not every single, but what 9 out of 10 government 249 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:57,640 organizations, if not more make no money, right? 250 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,600 They only lose money, they only spend money. 251 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,320 So you have central revenue collecting taxes or whatnot, but 252 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:04,840 everybody else is spending money. 253 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,760 And so that, that line is blurred significantly and it 254 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,480 becomes very difficult to challenge whether or not we're 255 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,240 doing well, right? Things are murky, priorities 256 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,000 change, their political motivations involved. 257 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,040 And so it can become a quite a challenge to, to determine 258 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:24,200 whether or not they're doing well. 259 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,840 And that's where internal audit comes in heavily on the public 260 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,000 sector side. And that was really what I clung 261 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,200 to. And I always, let's make sure 262 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:34,440 we're, we're taking care of business. 263 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,440 I mean, we don't want to break any laws, those types of things. 264 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,200 But the perspective that I always took and the perspective 265 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,800 that I brought into the many, many, many difficult 266 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,880 conversations that I had to have, the many tense 267 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:52,040 conversations that I had to have, the perspective that I 268 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:57,280 brought was both sides of the table are trying to ensure that 269 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,600 the organization is delivering the best results. 270 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:01,760 We're just coming at it from different angles. 271 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,480 I'm making sure that we're keeping an eye down the road so 272 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,200 that something doesn't appear suddenly out of nowhere and 273 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:11,840 they're trying to deliver the best results. 274 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:16,440 And to me, they're complimentary different ultimate stakeholders. 275 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,360 I reported directly to the head of the organization and, and you 276 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,240 know, so there's, I'm not part of the hierarchy, but, but that 277 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,400 was my motivation. And so it allowed for me to, 278 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:31,160 whether or not they saw it this way, it allowed for me to to, to 279 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:35,320 deliver bad news while feeling good about it to a certain 280 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,720 extent. That was perfect. 281 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,560 You've already calmed me down for my my, I was concerned that 282 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,600 you were currently auditing this podcast, but no, I think that 283 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,400 that it's a partnership, right? Yes, I, I, I completely see it 284 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,240 that way. Now in terms of you, you're 285 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,480 ultimately both after the same goals. 286 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,480 And so I appreciate you kind of breaking that down for us. 287 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,560 So, you know, now I'm curious because you spent many, many 288 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,760 years in your career as the chief audit executive and now 289 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,920 since leaving federal service, you've been working with, you've 290 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,240 decided to work with nonprofits or, or other public service 291 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,040 organizations. So tell me a little bit about 292 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:13,960 how that transitions been for you. 293 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:19,720 And has there been a big curve in terms of adapting what you 294 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,480 used to do versus what you're doing today? 295 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,160 Well, there's, I mean, there's definitely a curve in, in the 296 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,440 sense that, you know, starting your own business versus being 297 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,920 part of an organization of thousands and thousands of 298 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:32,840 people. So, so there's that perspective 299 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:37,640 for sure. But it was from a directional 300 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,480 standpoint, no, it wasn't difficult because this is, this 301 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,280 is kind of been a pain point of mine for a while. 302 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:47,800 So a lot of folks in my former position, if they were to, to 303 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:53,760 get into developing their own advisory and consultancies, they 304 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,720 would get into audit risk management, you know, leveraging 305 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,400 what you know. But for me, as I said, you know, 306 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:05,880 at the very beginning, the crux for me was always that that 307 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,599 disconnection between the risk and the project leader. 308 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,920 And that to me is, is the biggest, possibly the biggest 309 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,599 reason why a lot of public sector projects do fail is that 310 00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:22,359 the comprehension of what risk is and, and how it can enable a 311 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:27,119 project is largely missing and deliberately so in, in, in 312 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,800 certain extents. So for me, trying to build that 313 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,400 understanding and, and try to deliver that aha moment that 314 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,040 we're not talking about something bad here. 315 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,360 We're talking about knowing the road ahead of you so that you 316 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:43,680 can avoid the potholes. That becomes pretty, pretty 317 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,440 satisfying to me and, and ultimately becomes satisfying to 318 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,280 the people that I've worked with as well, because they realize 319 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:54,040 that a, they kind of dropped one compliance exercise right that 320 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,120 now they're, everything they're doing is strategic in nature. 321 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,480 And secondly, it can enable them to, to aim a lot higher. 322 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,160 It's, it's not about let's scale things back it, it's really 323 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,040 about let's, let's still aim for those moon shots. 324 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,320 But we have to know what we're getting into and being able to, 325 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,720 to build in some plans to, to, to deal with whatever comes to 326 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,240 us. So for me, that was the most 327 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,360 inspiring part of having a lot of these conversations. 328 00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:20,840 And now, you know, now that I've, well, we keep talking 329 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,520 about it, but now we kind of shed that, that audit title. 330 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,680 And so the, the defensiveness kind of comes down a little bit 331 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,520 too. And we can talk more as peers as 332 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,280 opposed to, as I mentioned, two sides of the table. 333 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,440 Oh, in, in just the last, you know, 3 or 4 minutes. 334 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,720 You've calmed me down from that, the tie of that term. 335 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:46,400 But yes, I, I can see how that would translate really well into 336 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,160 that sector. Was there something about 337 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,480 working with the public service organizations just in general 338 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,920 that from your experience previously and then translating 339 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,440 now into your own business, is there something about that group 340 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,680 that you were really thinking, this is the group I want to help 341 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,400 and target with, with getting them to where they need to be? 342 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:10,480 Well, partly because I mean, I know the guts of of the public 343 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,880 sector, right? I've again, again, one of the 344 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:18,920 advantages of my previous roles was that I had to know the 345 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,040 entire organization inside and out there. 346 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,800 There are kind of silos that they could do certain things 347 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:29,520 exceptionally well and that's really what they focus on for, 348 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,440 if not that job, maybe even in their entire careers. 349 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:37,200 But for me, top down, do a, a massive dive into every corner. 350 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,600 So I, I, I know how not only the areas operate, but how they 351 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,000 operate with each other. So I, I, I kind of know all 352 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:47,120 those, that, all the squeaky wheels in the organization and 353 00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:50,800 how those translate into, into successes or failures #1. 354 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,400 Secondly, there are, I'd say that there are a lot of 355 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,760 universal risk. And we talked about people being 356 00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:58,720 one of them. For sure. 357 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:02,680 There are a lot of risks that are unique to the public sector. 358 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:07,440 So the political you know, enablement or insurance, however 359 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:12,680 you wanna call it, that's huge. Lots of people shifting all the 360 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,320 time. So one project leader leading, 361 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,080 you know, a long term project from start to finish. 362 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,000 It's almost never happens. And that would apply to so many 363 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,560 senior staff members as well, even the heads of the 364 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,440 organization, they might be in and out, you know, once every 365 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:31,640 year or two years. And plus we get the central 366 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,240 funding, we get the massive oversight, all these different 367 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:40,560 elements that by themselves aren't necessarily unique to 368 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:44,320 just the public service, but they're amplified when they, 369 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,960 when they all come together. And so that can be pretty 370 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,400 suffocating. And, and you know, very often 371 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,280 there is this reputation that people have or that they assume 372 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,480 that the public sector should have is, is that, you know, 373 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,520 well, they're slow, they don't work hard, they don't think 374 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,720 things through. They, you know, on and on and on 375 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,760 and on and on. And while I'm not going to say 376 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,280 that every single individual in public sector is, is a 377 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:13,520 superstar, of course, there are tons of exceptionally talented 378 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:18,360 and bright people who work much longer than a lot of people I 379 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:20,600 know in the private sector throughout, you know, through 380 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,440 the days, through the weeks, through the weekends, and 381 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:26,120 especially in the executive ranks. 382 00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:28,840 I mean, that's free, right? They're working for free. 383 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,680 They're just dedicated to putting in all that extra effort 384 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:34,080 to get some across the finish line. 385 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,480 And another unique thing is we talked about all the oversight 386 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,560 and the impositions and the reporting and the tools. 387 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,720 The infrastructure very often sets them up to fail. 388 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,560 So here they kind of burn themselves out, driving them 389 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,000 into themselves into exhaustion, really caring about delivering 390 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,920 important results for for citizens, for taxpayers. 391 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,720 And it doesn't get there. And they're kind of lost. 392 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,360 They're wondering what happened. I couldn't have worked harder. 393 00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:02,760 My team couldn't have worked harder. 394 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,200 Everybody said we were doing a great job and it didn't get 395 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,160 across the finish line. And so I have no answers. 396 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,000 And you know, that can be very demoralizing. 397 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:17,080 So so the flip side of that is it can be very inspiring if we 398 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,560 can figure out what the problem is and turn that fading or 399 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,520 failing project into a success. You know, what you do and the 400 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,800 way you've described it sounds like a lot of fun. 401 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,760 So for folks who you know are interested, they're listening to 402 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,160 our conversation. They're not too familiar with 403 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,240 audit and risk and how that weaves into project leadership 404 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,760 and the roles that you can have. What would you say to those 405 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,400 folks, you know, as our parting as my parting question? 406 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,880 And if you have any parting advice for for the audience in 407 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,280 terms of if they're listening and they're thinking, man, what 408 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,760 Matthew does, that sounds like a lot of fun. 409 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,320 How could I get into that? I'm currently a project manager, 410 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,120 project leader, and I want to do that. 411 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,120 Do you have any advice for that part of our audience? 412 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:09,000 Well, I just reach out to if they do have interest in, in 413 00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:11,240 either audit or risk management, is that that's what you're 414 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:12,920 asking if people have interest in that? 415 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,840 Yeah, if they do just reach out to their to their team. 416 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:17,960 So if, if you're in an organization large enough, just 417 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:19,960 reach out to the internal audit group or the risk management 418 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,480 group or, or whatever they might be called there. 419 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:28,160 Because one of the, the, the big pushes when we talk about PMI, 420 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,120 the IAA is the same thing for, for auditors and, and they love 421 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:34,080 the notion of, of sharing competency. 422 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,280 So you coming in, doing a year, going back to a regular job, 423 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,200 that type of thing, because again, understanding is the 424 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:45,400 biggest, biggest driver because a project leader going into to 425 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,080 something like audit risk management, they learn that side 426 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:50,640 of it, but they're also teaching, right. 427 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:55,280 And so again, when we have people with very fixed careers, 428 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,880 auditors, risk managers, if that's what they're doing from 429 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,600 the time they graduate right through their, their careers, 430 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,720 they might not have that exposure to what it means to run 431 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,200 into real hard realities on the fly that kind of came out of 432 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,840 nowhere for them. It's, it's a theoretical, it's a 433 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,000 paper exercise. And you know, should have done 434 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:15,120 this, should have, should have, should have. 435 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:18,480 Sometimes life just doesn't work that way. 436 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,680 And so the more that project leaders can educate them as 437 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,120 well, then it's a sharing of knowledge, building of 438 00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:28,720 competence, sharing of capacity. And it's a it's, it's a win, win 439 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,720 and win for the organization as well. 440 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,440 Absolutely true synergy in the way that you put it. 441 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,560 So I appreciate that. So Matthew, that will do it for 442 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,360 our time today. I honestly, I could probably 443 00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:40,960 talk to you for another half hour. 444 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,200 So before I take the rest of your day, if folks do want to 445 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,800 continue the conversation with you, where can they find you 446 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:52,120 online? Well, one of the guides that I 447 00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:54,960 put together sums up a lot of what we talked about, a lot of 448 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,840 these hidden risk, and so developed a short, Quick guide 449 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,200 called The Seven Red Flags of Failing Projects That Most 450 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,120 Leaders Miss. It's a succinct guide with some 451 00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:07,200 concrete actions that can be taken if leaders are 452 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,400 encountering issues, especially in the public sector, and that 453 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,520 can be found at projectredflags.com. 454 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,840 It's a free download and you'll find it there 455 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,240 projectredflags.com. And thank you for sharing of 456 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:19,520 your tools. Yeah, I'll make sure all the 457 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:24,240 relevant links to Matthew are in the description of this podcast 458 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,800 as well. You can follow the Everyday PM 459 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,320 or myself, I'm on LinkedIn and the Everyday PM podcast is on 460 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:34,040 all of your podcasting platform. So make sure you drop us a 461 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,480 comment or feedback on what you thought of today's conversation 462 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,160 as well as subscribe to the podcast for future episodes. 463 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,400 So that will do it for Matthew 9 for this installment of the 464 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,440 Everyday PM podcast. Thank you for listening and 465 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,480 until next time, take care.