Welcome to the Everyday PM podcast, the podcast where we
discuss project management principles for your everyday
life. My name is Anne Campia, I am the
host and founder of the Everyday PM, and today we're diving into
one of the most transformative and could potentially be a
little bit controversial topics in construction project
management. It's the intersection of AI,
artificial intelligence, ethics, and the future of planning and
scheduling. Our guest today is Doctor Mala,
who is a Senior PM professional with over 17 years of global
experience leading planning, scheduling, and project controls
for complex infrastructure programs exceeding $47 billion.
So Doctor Malla is joining us for a series of these podcast
episodes where we are going to really dive into various topics
on construction project management.
If you have not been introduced to Doctor Malla in a previous
episode that you've listened to Doctor Malla, why don't you take
a second to introduce yourself to our audience?
Yeah. Thank you so much and for this
wonderful topic that we are going to have conversation with
and giving a very brief overview about myself.
I've been in the construction landscape for over more than 17
years as Anne has mentioned. And with respect to the kind of
diverse projects experience, especially in the project
controls roles starting from the scheduling, planning and the way
sorts of contracts management operations.
I bring in the wealth of different perspective lenses.
And along with this, the tools with which the importance of the
various control systems that are necessary for projects
especially the mega scale and mega infrastructure projects is
something like which I have gained over a period of time.
And the tools, especially with respect to technological
advancements, which is going at a meteoric pace is something
which we need to engage not just ourselves, but also the peers
and colleagues in different levels of maturity with which
they want to have to get in the AI related realm to their
specific domains. So apart from this, I would like
to also add that I'm not just only focused on the practical
aspects of the industry related experience.
I also have gained the research acumen through my doctoral
studies. So it's a it's a combination of
scientific way of analysing, analysing the various types of
projects that I have accomplished.
Yeah. And it's it's a combination of
research theory plus practical implication is something which
I'm honoured to have got over these 17 years.
So without Much Ado, if you want to know my profile a little bit
of more extensively, I hope you would be in a position to replay
the Episode 1, which was discussed on construction
workforce necessity in the US industry and US, USA
construction industry, specifically the mega projects.
So I have explained a bit more about it.
So in today's episode, we will have some sort of conversations
with the kind of AI exposure that I have put into the
practical applications and how does it, what works and what
didn't work for me is something like which I would like to
discuss about. Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, the thought of AI, especially in construction
project management, you know, as we start to integrate AI more
and more into our project workflows and we see the
predictive analytics that come from AI, there's questions that
project managers are facing now, right?
Like, how do we ensure the tools are used responsibly?
Who's accountable if AI makes a mistake, right?
We can't just assume AI is correct every time.
How do we balance efficiency with ethical considerations?
I think all of those are things that project managers are
curious about, especially in the realm of construction project
management. So I'm so excited, Doctor Malla,
that you're here to bring that expertise as well as the
academic side of it, plus the practicality of using AI with
project workflows. So why don't we dive into what I
wanted to ask you first? So you had mentioned previous in
the first episode of this series as well as today that you've
worked on some very, very large construction projects, very
complex, large budgets. So you've published research on
AI applications in the AEC industry as well.
So let's start with a quick reality check, Doctor Mala.
Where is AI actually making a difference in construction
planning and scheduling right now versus where it's still just
this kind of hype or this myth around AI?
And can you share a specific example from your work where AI
has genuinely improved project outcomes?
Well, that's a really a very great place to begin with,
because the very moment when a person mentions of AI at least
for five years ago for I mean like pre COVID, at least in the
construction industry, it was a kind of a buzz.
It wasn't that kind of a buzzword or it was a mere
thought like AI couldn't penetrate or get get assimilated
into the construction industry. Oh, it's just the IT folks.
It's not the construction industry professionals who who
needs to learn? That was a kind of notion pre
COVID. It was there and it so happened
at a skyrocketing pace, the hype and the kind of implementation
with which AI is happening in different domains, not just in
planning and scheduling, but in the different life cycles of the
construction projects, right, Starting from the conceptual
stage, initiation, planning, execution, monitoring and
controlling, closing and even maintenance.
You have the kind of use cases built to this in, in in just a
span of five years. I mean, at least there is a
surge of interest that has been shown vehemently by various
construction professionals and coming to the purview of
planning and scheduling systems. I would bring like from my
experience both as a practitioner as well as a
researcher, I'd say that AI is not revolutionising the
construction per SE, but it is meaningfully improving the
various parts of the planning, components, coordination and
decision support where the fundamentals are absolutely
intact and it has got good data. So having data is not the right
way with which AI can be implemented, but having the good
data, data points, data structuring, information
structuring is something which is key to implement any sort of
AI related models, something like that.
So if I look at where the real value is being delivered in the
various projects that have been recently involved, it's
primarily in the areas of building information modelling
based virtual prototyping at the early project stages.
So this is more of like 4 dimensional BIM.
So a combination of the project schedule with the
three-dimensional model and trying to integrate the various
information components and trying to look at the sequence
sequencing and at the conceptual level how it's going to get
built is something like can be visualised.
So that's the first point. The second one is like key is
the information structuring and ensuring proper interface
management is established in the projects.
And the second, the second most important aspect, construction
industry, especially the previous projects, everyday they
produce humongous amounts of data in the form of daily
project report, lots of information there and lots of
progress site photographs on these sort of information that's
being generated in the project site at daily basis is something
where this information whether it is cleaned properly.
So who is going to verify the reports?
I mean like up until now majority of the construction
projects were like maintaining this sort of information or
database more of like auditing, more of like mere compliance
kind of system. Yeah.
So there was no sort of compliance of the data quality
that happened. But with the kind of surge in AI
related approaches that we want to implement, it's necessary
that data quality is of immense importance.
So that forms the basis with which the various algorithms
that we can apply to the data that has been generated from the
projects. So the third most important
component which I can think it has delivered with respect to AI
was identifying the patterns in the schedule activities with
respect to risks and any sorts of trends in the historical
project data. Although this can be done
performed even on Excel, Microsoft Excel and other tools
that are commercial tools that are available with the help of
AI, different types of algorithms using different deep
learning techniques or natural language processing techniques
and all we can perform lots of. We can dissect the data and
visualize it in different manner so that the visualization and
scenario testing is something which can be performed aptly
rather than just going with autonomous decision making.
And this is where the 4th point that I would like to highlight
how it has impacted and got better deliverables.
So the first one is BIM based virtual prototyping in the
initial stages of the project. Second one is the information
restructuring and managing of the interfaces.
Third one is it's able to give us various sorts of anomalies
through the pattern recognitions.
And the 4th and final one is like the visualisation and
scenario based testing that if if we have humongous data, I
mean like it's, it's quite interesting that all these years
majority of the construction projects were maintaining
databases which weren't of good quality.
I mean, data cleaning and all was not that of utmost
importance or sort of accuracy needs to be maintained,
maintained is is not that kind of a notion that was prevailing.
But if you want to implement AI systems and it's necessary that
data needs to be of good quality and that's where the key point
is. So with respect to my research
arena, I would like to discuss whether it's a agile based BIM
or the building information modelling or whether it is lean
agile integration which I have performed research.
It had shown significant improvements in the outcomes,
which is not AI related stuff because that happened purely
owing to the data discipline integrating the process based
systems and more clarity of the information flows.
So for instance, I can give an example like one of the water
infrastructure projects that I have worked six years ago, the
BIM models that were used for virtual prototypes combined with
the structural various sorts of schedules or the planning logic
had significantly reduced downstream level rework or the
coordination failures because we are in a position to visualize
it prior to its breaking down on the ground.
So there wasn't a sort of neural network or AI kind of stuff
being involved. However, this virtual try
virtual prototyping definitely had helped in decision making.
There was intelligence that has been embedded in how the
information was created, validated and shared and where I
Whereas how I see the hype where AI is positioned is as a
substitute for a project understanding.
So bringing in AI is not trying to bring in a human.
So you cannot substitute humans judgement Right?
So no algorithm is going to compensate a human judgement.
Compensate for poorly defined scope yeah.
Or weak contract management or immature project governance.
So AI can be considered as a force multiplier or an amplifier
to to to your good systems, but it cannot definitely take away
the jobs. So AI is already valuable as a
decision supporting tool over here, but only it sits on top of
strong processes that are governing, which is the
information management. Especially you have the various
sorts of BIM standards for information management.
Then there are also lean thinking principles and human
judgment. Definitely adds keep role while
implementing AI systems. So this is what my take on and.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think it's, I, I think in a
nutshell, what we're learning is it's AI is available, it's
there, but it's not completely there to take over our jobs.
I kind of think we mentioned that even in Episode 1 as we
were talking about that topic as well.
So I'm, I'm curious as we dive a little bit deeper, because we
need to address the elephant in the room, which is who's
responsible when things go wrong, especially as you're
working with AI systems to, let's say do project planning,
project scheduling, making decisions, analyzing delays,
predicting project risk decisions that can affect
billions of dollars and thousands of jobs, right?
Especially on some of the projects that you've had the
opportunity to work on. So I know you've done extensive
work in forensic schedule analysis and delay claims.
So how does AI change the accountability landscape, and
what are some of the ethical frameworks project managers
should be considering or thinking about?
Yeah, Yeah. This is really a very close.
This is a kind of an interesting and debatable question also.
Yeah. So at 1:00, on one hand,
majority of the organisations are craving for embracing AI
into their systems. So if you don't implement AI, it
seems like many of their counterparts would be of the
belief that we are outdated. Yeah, that's definitely the the
sentiment we're all feeling right?
Yeah, on. The other hand, there's another
notion that whoever is I mean that's trying to promote or
embed AI is also at the cusp of the integrity of the data
project data, then non disclosure clauses, NDA's that
has been signed by the various project professionals in the
construction industry and and what sort of ethical validity
are we working with like what sort of ethics with which are we
working with when we use these AI systems?
Definitely accountability is something like which we give to
a person, right. So when you try to utilize AI,
we cannot put a blame stating that this decision has been
given by AI, so AI needs to be accountable.
OK, then where to which Penal Code do we have to account to
that person? Look it, it's so weird to get to
this point, however lot of us have this sort of notion.
So I would like to throw the kind of the kind of experience
and exposure that I have while I'm use utilizing AI.
So this is definitely a very question which is very close to
my domain of experience, especially the forensics delay
analysis which is completely dealing with claims, disputes,
litigation and various sorts of contractual obligations.
So in this construction industry, decisions are not just
simply quite ad hoc or abstract. Any decision that's taken is
affecting the money, safety, various sorts of reputation of
the organization and livelihoods of the various employees who are
living on on this industry. So accountability cannot be
outsourced or being thrown to an algorithm which is developed by
an AI or something like that. One of the dangers I see with
the growing tendency of how AI systems is being AI outputs AI
systems being utilized is the objective truth.
You give certain information context to an AI system or a
large language model and it brings out to you deliverables
or responses. So it's it's a person's
judgement to analyse the output with which the LLM has tried to
give needs to be validated. Sure.
It's if it is that depends on the kind of decision that's
being made. So I don't feel that depending
upon, I mean like correcting minor documentation or
grammatical or kind of proofreading kind of stuff is
something like, OK, but then every operation that you perform
on AI algorithms or systems, it needs to have a kind of
proofreading, a kind of validation.
Sure. And human judgement cannot just
go with AI. AI say whatever it says, but AI
systems are only as neutral as the data assumptions or
contractual context, whatever that you give or training it on.
If the historical data itself is providing some sort of biased
practices or adversial contracts, contracts or
practices or incomplete records, then definitely AI cannot
identify whether the data is correct or not.
Right. The data, I mean whatever you
feed and it tries to operate and then give you the output.
But how would you know whether the data that you fed is the
right one? And if you feel it's the right
one, also, how would you justify the output or response with
which it has given that you can rely on?
So it's something on the experience, part of your
experience, part of your domain knowledge.
Expertise plays a key role and AI just plays a kind of an
assistant to you to subvert some of your time consuming tasks or
the tasks which would take level of effort in documentation or
providing various sorts of standard procedures or standard
operating practices. It's somewhere you can try to
utilize certain AI components. And with respect to
accountability standpoint, AI doesn't change the fundamental
principles. Humans are finally responsible
for it and what does AI change is how responsibility must be
structured. AI can help you in structuring
your responsibilities between the team.
So it gives you multiple options so that you can try to minimize
the time spent in organizing the stuff or trying to structure
some mechanism. So it's good to have AI to
brainstorm. So suppose if you don't have
particular team members that you want to main brainstorm, so you
can brainstorm your ideas and probably you might get some sort
of leads or some sort of different sort of hybrid, hybrid
analysis that you wanted to do. Probably that's the what if
scenario analysis platform, which you can do all sorts of
your whatever that you're thinking, try to utilize it as a
platform to do the scenario analysis.
And based on my research into this BIM contracts interface
management or the dispute resolution, some of the some of
the book reviews as well as one of the papers that have been
involved, a couple of papers. I understand that the
organizations need to clearly define who is owning the AI
generated insights. So a lot of governance needs to
be developed. Yeah.
Otherwise it's like people go to the rabbit hole.
Yeah. Establishing proper human in the
loop decision protocols, although you're utilizing
certain AI tools like for instance, in the forensic
schedule delay analysis. While we while we prepare a
report, final report on the various sorts of scheduled delay
analysis that we take into the approach.
It's the the most time consuming part is providing that report.
So probably in those scenarios, structuring the report, writing
the clear chronological narrative of the events, trying
to transcribe the various sorts of narratives with respect to
delays given by the site in charge of superintendents, it
can bring out the teams, bring out certain causalities what
caused these delays. So you can utilize it as a tool
and utilizing in such kind of analysis and that that's the
part which is consuming a lot of level of effort from the final
decision rather than the final decision point.
So when the AI systems can be utilized in these sorts of
minute tasks, it would definitely help the schedule
delay experts or for forensic schedule and quantum delay
professionals in spending majority of the time in bringing
out the analytical component into picture and trying to
analyse the substantiation of the cost with explainable and
auditable components with the help of AI outputs that they
get. And aligning the AI usage with
the contractual and legal frameworks is also another
important aspect. So in this forensic schedule
delay analysis only suppose there are various contractual
entitlement for delays of different types, excusable, non
excusable, various types of concurrent pacing delays, all
these sorts of contractual obligations that is provided,
which is like quite voluminous. It's, it's really helpful when
AI systems are used to try to interpret the clause.
Not everybody is an legal expert, right?
Like especially the freshers who wants to join or have a flavour
of this sorts of scheduled delay analysis.
I think working with AI in trying to understand the various
contractual clauses before it is being entitled to a particular
delay is definitely helpful. So when it's simple like when
you have humongous data, AI would definitely help you in
different use cases. But identifying that different
use case is up to the human to know.
And that can come when that particular professional is adept
or expertise in their particular domain and has got vast
knowledge on the projects that they have worked.
Viewing from different perspectives is something like
it. It gets developed when you have
an exposure on or an experience. Yeah.
So in claims and disputes especially, AI should never be
the final authority. At best it can help you in
bringing out those patterns, themes or inconsistencies.
But causality, I mean getting the entitlement responsibility.
But responsibility, who is going to be responsible for particular
delay, whether it is a contractor, owner, subconsultant
consultant is primarily determined by the professionals
who understand the context and contracts and the case law.
And especially it's not AI's who are working on the project, it's
the construction professionals, right?
They're they're working with the projects.
So they should be final accountable people.
It's not definitely. AI, not AI.
And finally, I would like to add this ethically.
Project managers need to ask themselves that do not ask just
can we use AI, but they should be thinking like should we and
under what governance should be working with this AI systems.
Yeah. So definitely organizations need
to design ethics into their systems right from day one and
not just in not just doing a retrofitting kind of assessment
or just when things go wrong. So before launching AI and a
sort of understanding the gap, understanding the various sorts
of information management standards, processes, workflows
and pilot projects are necessary before launching that that that
could be a kind of what if scenario, yeah.
Or or a kind of scenario testing possibility that could be done,
yeah. Absolutely, absolutely.
Well, Doctor Malla, that was incredibly insightful.
I think you've given us at least the listeners of, of our podcast
episodes of balanced perspective that couples really well with
what we covered in episode 1 of this series around building
skills from the ground up. I think there continues to be a
theme and what you're sharing in your research as well as what
you're seeing out on the field, which is the human element and
how that can really partner well with AI, but not necessarily
acknowledge AI as you know, another stakeholder in the room
that we can hold accountable to if if something goes wrong.
So I appreciate the balanced perspective you acknowledging AI
is real potential while being clear eyed about all the ethical
challenges that we still need to continue to remember to address
as project professionals. So some of the key takeaways
from this episode that I would share with the audience start
practical, as Doctor Mala Point pointed out, focus on some of
the AI applications that are working today rather than
chasing what the hype of the future of AI is, is, is going to
be build those accountability frameworks.
So before even thinking about implementing AI, you should be
thinking about the decision making protocols that governance
structure, that Doctor Mal pointed out, audit your training
data and involve diversity in the stakeholders that are
looking at the AI system design and then augment, don't replace.
I think for me, that was a very strong message and what Doctor
Molla shared today, which is focusing on AI as a tool that
enhances human judgement rather than replaces it.
So that was again, incredibly insightful and balance for what
could have potentially be a very controversial topic.
So Doctor Molla, thank you for bringing that expertise to the
podcast today. For folks that want to continue
the conversation with you, where can they find you online?
Well, you I would appreciate Anne if you could share my
LinkedIn. So if you could just type on my
name. So definitely you would find me
and we can can get connected. And I would highly appreciate
Anne and the Everyday PM podcast for enabling me to share some of
the best practices, knowledge, exposure, so it's more of like
conversational kind of topics. And I truly enjoy.
And anyone who wants to connect with me and learn more about any
sort of collaboration, yes, I'm open to it.
It's been, yeah, truly an honor and a pleasure hosting you here.
I'm very excited to release these again as a series.
As Doctor Mal had mentioned, a good conversation to listen to
from start to finish in these episodes.
So thank you so much for joining us.
If you'd like to continue the conversation with me, you can
find me on LinkedIn as well. I'll drop that link into the
podcast description. Make sure to follow and
subscribe to the Everyday PM Podcast.
You can find it on every podcasting platform.
And let us know what you thought about today's episode.
So thank you so much for joining us today and for the important
work you're doing to ensure AI serves the construction industry
responsibly. Dr. Mala, first and foremost,
thank you for that. And to our listeners, as you
explore AI in your own projects, remember technology is a tool,
but ethics is a choice, so make it intentional.
And thanks for listening to our episode.
And until next time, take care.