1 00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:12,960 Welcome to the Everyday PM Podcast, the podcast where we 2 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:15,880 discuss project management principles for your everyday 3 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,120 life. My name is Ann Campia, I'm a 4 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,480 certified project manager. I also have education and 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,080 project management. I am just so very much 6 00:00:24,080 --> 00:00:27,160 passionate about this role and the space. 7 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,440 I've had the awesome opportunity to work in different industries 8 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,640 like tech, marketing, healthcare, you name it. 9 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,240 I just love being a project manager and I am super excited 10 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,520 to welcome our guest today, Evan Unger, who is the Managing 11 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:42,560 Partner at Schwartz and Associates. 12 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:46,000 He and I have had a chance to connect offline together to talk 13 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,480 about a lot of the exciting projects he's working on. 14 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:52,520 But I am happy to have him on as a guest host for today's episode 15 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,360 where we'll be talking about everything from virtual 16 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,160 coaching, leadership development, and all the amazing 17 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:00,080 things that he's doing as part of his business. 18 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,880 So Evan, welcome to the Everyday PM podcast. 19 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,680 I'm so excited to have you on. Well, thank you Ann for having 20 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:08,480 me on. I'm excited to be here too. 21 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,640 And for those who have not met you yet, can you please take a 22 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:13,960 brief moment to introduce yourself to our audience? 23 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:16,760 Yeah. I guess I'm looking at your 24 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:18,200 LinkedIn page. I think I go back a little 25 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,800 further than you do. And but I got out of Business 26 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:27,080 School 1989 and went to work for a big pharma company, Merck, and 27 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,160 they put me in a leadership development rotational 28 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:31,800 assignment, like what I was doing. 29 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,320 And then just invented this job called director of change 30 00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:38,760 leadership and development, which honestly was a fancy title 31 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:40,160 for. I had no idea what I was doing. 32 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,880 I'm three years out of Business School, A new CEO comes on board 33 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,800 from outside of pharma, does an assessment of the organization, 34 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,320 is frustrated because it's siloed, bureaucratic, people 35 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,680 aren't collaborating. And somehow I got charged with 36 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,680 figuring out how to deal with collaboration, right. 37 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,920 And So what I've done for the last 30 years is work with small 38 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,880 to medium sized organizations on cultural transformation efforts. 39 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:10,960 And so that's what I do Now, truth be told, I'm going to 40 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,560 point in my life where work life balance is very important. 41 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,840 So I'm mostly training people how to do high stakes workshop 42 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,960 facilitation. I mean, you know, you don't have 43 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,440 the easiest job in the world. Let's let's consider that for a 44 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:26,840 second. Evan is in the business of 45 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,360 changing culture for organizations and for those that 46 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,520 are listening, and I know we have non PMS that are listening 47 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,320 and even PMS that are listening to this episode. 48 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,400 Changing anything #1 is really difficult. 49 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:44,000 Changing organizational culture and finding a means to do so 50 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,600 that is effective is so hard in my opinion. 51 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:53,280 I am in a role myself right now where we are consistently, 52 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:55,800 consistently experiencing change. 53 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,840 And sometimes change is hard because it's driven by the 54 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,160 culture in which you are trying to operate in. 55 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,360 And so Evan, I just, I know that we talked about this offline 56 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,280 when we were trying to come up with the topics for this 57 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,320 conversation. And I was just in awe about the 58 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,400 fact that you not only fell into your role, but then you figured 59 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,000 it out. And now kind of like you said, 60 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,200 being more at the tail end of your career and your journey and 61 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,880 wanting more of that work life balance, you found a way to kind 62 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,720 of infuse it by helping others do the same thing that you've 63 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,600 done. So all of that to say, I'm so 64 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:31,920 excited to have you on because of all of the accomplishments 65 00:03:31,920 --> 00:03:33,800 that you're able to share with our audience. 66 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,280 Well, I mean, it's interesting because if you go back when I 67 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,840 was challenged to figure out how to get people to collaborate, 68 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,560 this is 93. I don't have e-mail till 94. 69 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:45,880 You don't go back that far, right? 70 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,960 But there's no there's no Zoom or Webex or Microsoft. 71 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,600 Teams. None of that stuff exists. 72 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,120 So what we were doing back then was teaching people how to 73 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,680 facilitate collaboration. Sitting in a room together, They 74 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,400 were sitting there and 12 people. 75 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,320 We're running workshops teaching people facilitation now. 76 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:11,880 Decades go by and clients start asking us to teach people how to 77 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:16,120 collaborate virtually on screens as tech came along. 78 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,519 And then the pandemic hit. And really all we're doing now 79 00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:22,920 is teaching people high stakes workshop facilitation. 80 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,240 And we can get into how this is part of a cultural 81 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,360 transformation effort in a moment. 82 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,960 But that's really what we're doing, is working like we are 83 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,120 right now on screens, teaching people how to run these hybrid 84 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:39,120 teams, these virtual teams. Yeah, I think I love the history 85 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:43,480 there because I don't know that everybody is familiar with the 86 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:49,920 work environment pre Zoom, pre Microsoft Teams, pre all the 87 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,120 collaboration tools that are available now. 88 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,440 Obviously now your company has embraced virtual coaching, 89 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,880 virtual leadership development and that sort of thing. 90 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:04,280 Did that come organically or was that a conscious decision for 91 00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:07,360 you to move to that type of model as your customers were 92 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,720 asking for it? I would say it was more organic. 93 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,720 I would be honest. Truth was we were working, 94 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,120 running, you know, high stakes workshops face to face as part 95 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,120 of change initiatives. And as part of those 96 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,560 interventions we were always teaching people this 97 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,600 collaborative leadership skill set, right, high stakes 98 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:31,840 facilitation skill set. And you know, for so many years 99 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,800 that's what people were doing. They were meeting in rooms. 100 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,280 Now, I think Webex and live meeting Gotomeeting came in 101 00:05:38,280 --> 00:05:40,520 early and clients started saying, well, wait a minute, 102 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:42,960 we're not flying people around the world anymore like we did in 103 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:48,480 93 to run these meetings. Can you start teaching us how to 104 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,600 do this virtually? And the honest truth was I 105 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,000 resisted. I did not think it was going to 106 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,480 be that interesting to sit on screens like this. 107 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,400 So we dabbled in it. And then when the pandemic hit, 108 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,880 as I said, really that's all we're doing because almost all 109 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:07,280 of our clients are in air quotes, working hybrid and I 110 00:06:07,280 --> 00:06:09,720 think organization trying to figure out how do we run these 111 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:14,360 teams when people may never even meet each other face to face or 112 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,840 certainly it will be very infrequent. 113 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,040 And so it was more organic than conscious. 114 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,800 And I'm not trying to ask you to, you know, divulge the secret 115 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,200 ingredients to the recipe around how you train folks. 116 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:34,360 But in this move to a virtual environment, how has it changed? 117 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,840 If anything, the way that you you train folks on virtual 118 00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:41,560 coaching, leadership development, how do you train 119 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:43,840 executives? Has it changed anything at all? 120 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,920 Well, it's interesting. The mental model of how we might 121 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,080 engage groups has not changed, right? 122 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:55,560 The platform has so where we would have taught people how to 123 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,240 work and we've all done things like simple storyboarding or 124 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,840 affinity diagramming and sticky dot voting. 125 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,360 So when we're working face to face, of course, we're working 126 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,480 on real whiteboards or real walls virtually. 127 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,680 Now most of our clients are in the pandemic started using 128 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,240 platforms like Mural or Mirror or Lucid Spark. 129 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,560 So the platforms have changed and working on the screen is, 130 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,200 you know, different. But the principles of 131 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:27,440 collaboration remain the same in many ways because we're still 132 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,440 human beings. And, you know, I always like to 133 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,320 say, you know, people don't hate meetings, right? 134 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,880 What they hate is wasting time. And as human beings, we're all 135 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,000 dysfunctional. There's politics, there's ego in 136 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,400 any group setting. But the principles of this type 137 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,440 of collaboration and remain the same, independent of the fact 138 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,520 we're working now on screens instead of sitting in the room 139 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,960 together. Well, you know, that I, I shared 140 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:58,520 with you that I am in a complete 100% remote environment and I 141 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,880 often think to myself, how much more effective can I be as a 142 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,680 leader if I could just, you know, be in person with my team. 143 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,360 Have you gotten anything from those that you've coached so far 144 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:14,160 around this element of the well, I guess where do you stand, you 145 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,760 know, in terms of art? Can you be an effective leader 146 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,000 in person virtually? Does it matter anymore? 147 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,080 Well, I, I think nothing replaces a face to face meeting. 148 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,760 I mean, that's the honest truth. How organizations, and I'm sure 149 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,840 McKinsey and Accenture and Bain and all these companies are 150 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:35,039 selling, you know, the how, how you run hybrid organizations. 151 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:39,440 But the truth is we've lost so much human connection sitting 152 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,600 here on the screen. And one of the things I think 153 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,200 organizations do need to figure out is how to leverage in person 154 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,120 events. Right now we just happen to be 155 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,960 teaching people how to collaborate virtually. 156 00:08:54,680 --> 00:08:59,160 But the truth is, I don't think you'll ever replace the dynamic 157 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,800 of a face to face meeting because all the informal 158 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,480 networking that takes place even at a break, right, where you 159 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,320 find out about people's kids or you find out just the simple 160 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:14,200 things, those pieces are very hard to have happen virtually. 161 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,200 Even in our trainings, right, which is a four day training 162 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,480 when we were doing a face to face is a three day boot camp, 163 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,000 People would go to lunch together, they might have dinner 164 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,440 together, right? When we take a break on our 165 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,160 meetings, they're in their house or they're in their office and 166 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:32,480 there is no informal connection. And so I think it is very 167 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:34,520 different. And I think it is harder as a 168 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,000 leader to figure out how do I engage the people I am 169 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:40,040 responsible for getting results from. 170 00:09:40,560 --> 00:09:43,720 And what about the benefits of moving to this virtual 171 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,000 environment? What have you seen come out of 172 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:50,440 your your coaching program in terms of the format? 173 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,120 Well, the honest truth is, as we're teaching people this, it 174 00:09:55,120 --> 00:10:00,240 is a better program in many ways because I can, we can do things 175 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,280 virtually in terms of screen sharing and painting pictures. 176 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,120 That is much harder to do. And we used to run our workshop 177 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,040 using flip charts, which I'm sure you've been in that, but 178 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:14,920 they're not very dynamic. And so it is in many ways, I was 179 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,840 surprised when we switched over to teaching people virtual 180 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:21,520 collaboration that and as I said, I resisted it because I 181 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,080 didn't think it'd be very interesting or very powerful. 182 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:32,600 But what I quickly realized is it's, it's amazing how much 183 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,160 tighter the repetition in teaching is when you can paint 184 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,880 visuals and pictures for people over and over and connect the 185 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:43,400 auditory part of teaching people with the visual part of 186 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:45,080 teaching. And so I would say, and I 187 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,520 wouldn't say the program we're running now is a much better 188 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:50,680 program. We have stopped running the face 189 00:10:50,680 --> 00:10:55,920 to face program except for clients who want, they're really 190 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,560 old clients we have who are like, I want to run the face to 191 00:10:58,560 --> 00:11:01,280 face program and I have clients running the face to face program 192 00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:03,880 who all their meetings are hybrid, right? 193 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,000 They're still running them on Microsoft Teams. 194 00:11:06,560 --> 00:11:09,280 But the reason they're running them face to face is for the 195 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:13,600 very point we started with, which is the connection piece, 196 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,280 the team building piece, the human sort of dynamic. 197 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:21,200 So they like running the program face to face for that reason, 198 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,040 even though the skill set is more relevant for running 199 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,120 meetings virtually. Yeah, I hear you. 200 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:30,280 I think that is one thing I just miss having as the opportunity 201 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,880 to, if I needed walk over to somebody or let's go grab a 202 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,480 coffee and have a chat about this project. 203 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,240 And that's definitely something that I continue to miss being in 204 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,960 100% remote environment. But I'm glad to hear that 205 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,440 there's so many benefits for your organization in terms of 206 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,680 moving to that type of virtual model. 207 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,600 I'm curious about, I know for a fact, but I would love for you 208 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,880 to explain to our audience about how the program is very high 209 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:58,120 touch. She talked about some of the 210 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,160 collaborative tools that you're using, but it's also just 211 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,360 there's a lot of elements that you've infused to your program 212 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,920 that even though you're virtual, feels like it's a very high 213 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,480 touch program. So how do you ensure that 214 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,680 you're, you know, stakeholders are feeling that they're getting 215 00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:18,680 a very personalized training program when it comes to 216 00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:22,000 coaching? Well, I mean, it's, it's very 217 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,240 personalized, right? We're running, you know, a four 218 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,360 day intensive, right? We're running this thing on 219 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,080 Zoom, eight to three, eight to three for the first two days, 220 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,840 eight to four, eight to four in the second two days. 221 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,400 And people are like, how are you doing this with Zoom fatigue? 222 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,320 And we say it's not hard because it's all practice, right? 223 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:44,720 Effectively, the program, the 2nd and the 4th module are 224 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,760 people, it's a boot camp being asked to practice. 225 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,320 They're going to get feedback, give feedback, they're going to 226 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,880 get videotape. So the bulk of the program is 227 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,440 practice. That's how adults learn. 228 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,320 I always have senior clients, right, who I say, you know, 229 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,440 they're, they're running a group of, you know, APMO or an agile 230 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:06,640 group. We're doing change and 231 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,800 transformation because these are very much just change agent 232 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:10,360 skills, process improvement skills. 233 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,520 And I'll say, you know, I'd ask them to take the program, but 234 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,560 VPS are like, I'm too busy. Four days, I don't have time for 235 00:13:17,560 --> 00:13:18,800 that. Now, the truth is sometimes 236 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,640 they're modeling for people what fairly ineffectual leadership 237 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,680 looks like from a collaboration standpoint. 238 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,280 But they're not going to take the four days, but they'll come 239 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,280 in for three hours and watch the 4th day when people are 240 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,200 practicing and integrating things. 241 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,880 And they'll always say, this is tremendous, right? 242 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,040 This is awesome. I want all my agile people, all 243 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,600 my PMS to know how to do this. And I'll say, great, let's do 244 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,840 it. And then the less wise ones, 245 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,320 we'll then say, but I can't take my people offline for this much 246 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,040 time. And I'll ask people quite if you 247 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:51,840 ask. I mean, look, you work for what? 248 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,400 Hasbro, Apple. Amazon. 249 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:55,440 Right? So I. 250 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,840 For for 30 years, I've asked clients two questions. 251 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,080 How many meetings are going to take place in your organization 252 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,560 today, right. And I'm sure Amazon with 1.6 253 00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:07,200 million people probably has a half a million meetings, maybe 254 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,280 more today. And I've asked exactly could be 255 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,680 a lot more. And I've asked clients what's 256 00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:17,720 the average effectiveness of the meetings you attend. 257 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,280 I never asked them the ones they run because they'll think 258 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,080 they're better than they are. And in 30 years asking that 259 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,360 question, I've never had a client say our meetings are 80% 260 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,200 effectiveness. I would say the vast majority of 261 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,000 the time people tell me 50% or lower. 262 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,320 And I say to people, this is insane from just a cultural 263 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,600 performance issue. You're going to at, you know, 264 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,040 Amazon run half a million meetings today. 265 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,720 Even if we gave you the high bar of 70%, no one ever says that C 266 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,880 minus. This is just a cultural 267 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,600 performance issue that organizations don't address. 268 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:54,360 And So what the workshops trying to do is target the fundamental 269 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,280 building block of the culture of the organization, which is how 270 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,640 we engage people in meetings. Now we're focused on high stakes 271 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,920 meetings, workshop meetings. When we did culture change, one 272 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:05,640 of the first things we always did with an organization is 273 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,520 figure out how to stop so many meetings because there's so many 274 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:10,200 meetings that don't need to happen. 275 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,640 But we're really getting at the fundamental Bill and Brock 276 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,760 performance of an organization, which is meetings because that's 277 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:18,480 where people are going to spend time. 278 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,560 And when you do the math, most senior people spend at least 50% 279 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,000 of their time in meetings. Yeah. 280 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,880 And what that means is if you're spending 50% of your time in 281 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,880 meetings and only working 8 hour days, you will literally spend a 282 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:36,240 year's worth of your life in hours in meetings in under nine 283 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,400 years. I don't know how organizations 284 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,240 tolerate this, but they do. Oh my gosh. 285 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,520 Those are incredible statistics to share with people and it's 286 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:51,440 almost little bit sad for me to hear that probably a majority of 287 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,440 my life has been spent in those types of meetings. 288 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:58,280 But I, I do know what you mean by, you know, when you're 289 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,160 sitting in a meeting that is being run effectively and has 290 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,440 purpose and a goal and value for what you're trying to achieve. 291 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,880 And you know, the meetings that could have just been an e-mail 292 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,280 that could have just been a one-on-one or something like 293 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,680 that. So again, without giving folks 294 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:20,280 the secret ingredients to your recipe, you know, like what are 295 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:24,720 some of those interactions that you're having your the people 296 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,800 taking your program or your workshops go through is can you 297 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,160 give us one of the scenarios that you have the work through? 298 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,240 Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's no, there's no 299 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,960 rocket science here. It's really about fundamentals. 300 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:40,320 The metaphor we often use for high stakes workshop or a task 301 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,840 force I'm leading or a project I'm leading, right is it's, it's 302 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,040 like a plane flight, right? There's three parts take off, 303 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:53,560 right, flying and landing. Now we all know, you know, last 304 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,280 time I was out, I'm in Denver and at DIA, the airport, it took 305 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,440 42 seconds from the time they hit The Jets to wheels up. 306 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,839 If that doesn't go well, we're all dead right from the get. 307 00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:07,160 It's the same thing on a consulting engagement or a 308 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,079 project or a task force on leading or a workshop. 309 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,680 The first fundamental is taking off well. 310 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:18,119 Most meetings should never be allowed out of the hangar onto 311 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:22,440 the tarmac because the leader, they haven't thought through the 312 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,280 fundamental questions to take off. 313 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,800 Well, why are we having the meeting and what are we trying 314 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,680 to get done? And we teach a simple pop from 315 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,280 up which right, which just stands for purpose, objectives, 316 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:38,800 process roles and agreements. The purpose is why we're here 317 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:43,080 the the objectives for the meeting or workshop or what are 318 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,240 we trying to get done. If I can't answer those two 319 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,880 questions, the truth is I shouldn't be having a meeting 320 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,520 because I'm guaranteed to waste people's time if I don't know 321 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,560 why we're what we're doing. I'm going to be bouncing off 322 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,200 other people's objectives and agendas for my meeting if I 323 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,480 don't know what we're trying to get done, the destination, 324 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,680 right? If I were coming to visit you, I 325 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,680 don't know if I'm flying into LAX or where I'm flying into to 326 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,040 visit you. But if I don't know I'm going to 327 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,880 LAX, I'm going to end up up in SFO in San Francisco, which 328 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:12,520 means I can't. If I don't know that doesn't 329 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:17,040 design good process architecture for collaboration, the flight 330 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:18,520 plan, the agenda for the meeting. 331 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:22,080 If I don't know the why and what, I can't decide who really 332 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,080 needs to be there, who shouldn't be there, what roles I need them 333 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,600 to play. And so those fundamental 334 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,200 questions, the why, what, how, who and in what way do we need 335 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,200 to interact the in a personal group, That's the work I have to 336 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,520 do before I show up. And that's just one of the 337 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:43,440 simplest things that we work on in the workshop is good framing, 338 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,160 good take off. Because if I don't take off, 339 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,480 well, you know, any flight plan will do and I'm likely to have a 340 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,280 ton of turbulence when I haven't really thought through that. 341 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,160 I mean that's a lot of the problems in meetings have to do 342 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:59,120 with poor take off. I think that is so applicable 343 00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:02,680 not just to the executives and the leaderships, you know, 344 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,600 groups that you coach, but to anyone that's in, in the world 345 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:08,400 of business that has to run a meeting. 346 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,040 I think for the PMS that are listening and even for the non 347 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:16,040 PMS that like to tune into this podcast, everything Evan just 348 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,400 said is something that you can certainly take away as something 349 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,000 you can practice on your own. Just taking a little bit of time 350 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,600 to think through all of those elements that Evan has just 351 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:31,920 presented and making sure that you're ready for those prior to 352 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,800 the plane getting on the tarmac, as I love that analogy so, so 353 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,320 much. I think everyone can take into 354 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:43,240 account all of those elements, go in and have some preparation. 355 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,200 And with that, you're going to have a lot of success in 356 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,320 facilitating your meetings, I would think. 357 00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:51,480 I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've gone into 358 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,600 meetings where there's not even a purpose or an agenda attached 359 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,640 to them. And to me, that's very scary 360 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,280 because that tells me, signals to me that the person who has 361 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,840 organized the meeting may not have even thought through what 362 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,400 the travel plan is going to be for them. 363 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,600 Yeah, I mean, Patrick Lenciona, you may or may not have read his 364 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,480 book The Five Dysfunctions of Teens, right? 365 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,480 His his first book was Death by Meeting, right. 366 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,560 And what he one of his quotes, I won't get a perfect was, you 367 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,920 know, bad meetings lead to bad decisions, which is a recipe for 368 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,080 mediocrity. Now, it also leads to something 369 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,360 else. If I'm the one running all these 370 00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:29,720 bad meetings, it leads to people seeing me as a bad leader 371 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,200 because again, I'm wasting their time, right. 372 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,760 And so, and that proper model, those five questions, they don't 373 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,080 just apply to meetings. That's what we're doing when 374 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,960 we're launching a project. That's what project chartering 375 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,440 is, is getting clear why we having the project, What's in 376 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,600 scope, what's out of scope? What's our vision for this 377 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,320 project? What's the mission for the 378 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,160 project, right? The objectives, right? 379 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,400 Are the deliverables for the project. 380 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,080 The process is the project plan, right? 381 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,640 At the highest level, we've got roles. 382 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,960 This is why we do racy charting to get rolled alignment, which 383 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,080 also helps with decision making alignment. 384 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,840 And then we have to have interpersonal agreements for, 385 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,520 you know, when we meet, who gets to attend, how do we deal with 386 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,120 people who didn't show up and all the communication and 387 00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:21,320 decision making. And so that's really, there's a 388 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,960 popper, if you will, for the meeting, but there's a bigger 389 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,840 popper for the project charter. And that's why it's so important 390 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,360 to take off well when I'm launching a brand new project. 391 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:34,360 Yeah, I agree. I agree. 392 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,920 I'm curious around and yes, absolutely. 393 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,600 I mean there's substance and everything that you've shared 394 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,120 with us so far, Evan. But I think in particular what 395 00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:47,240 you just said around just making sure you've got all your ducks 396 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,200 in a row before you walk into that meeting or you log into 397 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,360 that meeting. But I'm curious around if you 398 00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:58,160 had any challenges presented to you during your coaching 399 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:02,920 experience or during any of your workshops that were challenges 400 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:07,240 for yourself to try to resolve or kind of provide guidance to 401 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,840 as part of your coaching, as part of your collaborative 402 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,280 sessions that you've done. Has anything kind of popped up 403 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,880 or you're like, oh, I've never encountered that before? 404 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,200 Well, I've been doing this for 30 years, right? 405 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,400 And every time you bring a group of 12 people together, it's 406 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,160 different. And it's the same, right? 407 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:32,240 Different in the sense you have new people, right? 408 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,600 They're from different organizations, different 409 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,480 cultures, right? But the same in the sense that 410 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:44,040 we're all working organizations and they're just some 411 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,800 fundamentals we have to bring to bear, regardless of whether 412 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:54,240 we're an IT person, an engineer, a biologist, doctors, lawyers. 413 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,960 I've trained them, all, right? Because when we're being put in 414 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,720 leadership positions, what we are asked to do is to get other 415 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:05,200 leaders to collaborate to help them make the best decisions and 416 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:06,760 get them to buy in and implement. 417 00:23:07,120 --> 00:23:10,120 So have I ever come up with challenges and workshop? 418 00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:12,800 Sure, right. They're difficult, challenging 419 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,600 participants, which is great because the second of the five 420 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,760 core things we're trying to teach people and we practice 421 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:23,320 over and over is the art of handling challenging, disruptive 422 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,200 people. And there is an art to it. 423 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,160 And a lot it's, there's different ways of course, we 424 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:31,560 could think about leadership, right? 425 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,680 The simplest way we might think about our leadership is to think 426 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:41,520 about it on a continuum where I could run a project team or a 427 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,280 meeting and I'm the expert, right? 428 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,760 I have all the expertise and I run it where I'm the expert. 429 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,640 The other way, and this is where we're working, is even though I 430 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,400 have expertise to bring a bear on the project, I remain 431 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,680 completely neutral on what the ultimate outcome is. 432 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:03,640 So if we were trying to decide how to roll something out, even 433 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:08,360 though I have strong opinions, I remain neutral and I am an 434 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,040 expert in getting the group to collaborate the right roll out 435 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,240 strategy. And that's where we're working. 436 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,000 And that's what pure collaborative leadership is, is 437 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,480 the art of knowing how to tap the expertise of the group and 438 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,040 help them work through things right. 439 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,200 And so you can think of expert leadership is telling people the 440 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,680 decision right, what the roll out and collaborative leadership 441 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,360 is asking them to figure it out. Now there are advantages to 442 00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:38,760 deciding for the team and telling them, of course, it's 443 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,200 quicker. I, I don't need to listen to 444 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,800 them and I get my way now. It's not very artful because you 445 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:50,200 had eight other people who were engaged who had expertise. 446 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,920 You've tapped none of the diversity of the group. 447 00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:56,920 You have A1 pointed decision. That's my point of view. 448 00:24:57,120 --> 00:24:58,640 And you're not going to get any buy in. 449 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:03,920 So if you're artful in this type of facilitative collaboration, 450 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,800 you're going to help groups make better decisions that are going 451 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:08,640 to get the right roll out strategy. 452 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,280 You're going to get a ton more buy in and ownership. 453 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,680 Now, people say when there's a disadvantage to asking the group 454 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:16,880 to figure it out for themselves. And I say, what's the 455 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,080 disadvantage? And they say it takes longer. 456 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,000 And I laugh and I say yes, of course, again, to get eight 457 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,360 people to agree on anything's a minor leadership miracle. 458 00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:28,360 We're all, as I said earlier, dysfunctional human beings. 459 00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:31,320 There is politics, there is ego, right? 460 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,600 So it is not easy to get a group to reach consensus and agree on 461 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,960 things, but it doesn't take longer, right? 462 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,960 Because what you've done is help the group solve the root cause, 463 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,520 not the symptoms. It's a better decision from the 464 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,040 get go. So it sticks. 465 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,840 There's not all these rework cycles and the group owns it, so 466 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,640 it gets implemented. So that's the real art of 467 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,880 collaborative leadership. And again, in the real world, 468 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,160 we're in the middle of the continuum. 469 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,120 Is it OK to make decisions for the team? 470 00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:02,720 Of course, especially if they're about to make a decision, you 471 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,240 know, the CEO is going to come unglued or, but really the art 472 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,560 is knowing how to ask them to figure it out and only move into 473 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,520 the middle of that continue when the group doesn't have the 474 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,360 expertise to do it themselves or they're about to do something 475 00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:21,920 that you know, is not going to be either politically supported 476 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:23,880 or is a good decision in the 1st place. 477 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,520 So that's really what we're doing is the art of how to get 478 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,040 the group to engage and make the right decision and. 479 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,480 Would you say once you have gotten a group to the point 480 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,240 where you feel like there's true collaboration happening at the 481 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:42,680 leadership level, is that in the argument of like chicken before 482 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,400 the egg sort of thing? Is that what needs to come 483 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,000 together in order for the organizational culture to start 484 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,040 shifting into a certain thing? Or are they? 485 00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:56,480 Are those two completely separate concepts in your mind? 486 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:04,560 Well, the, the way I, I would think about this is meetings are 487 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,920 the building blocks of the culture of the organization. 488 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:11,360 So if you look at the, and we're talking about high stakes 489 00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:14,120 workshop, right, there are a lot of meetings that shouldn't be 490 00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:17,200 happening. And so if our leadership of 491 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:22,920 those meetings is modeling, engaging people, right, working 492 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,360 on the right side of the continuum, it begins to change 493 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:28,200 the culture of the organization because that's where the culture 494 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,280 is forming. So it really we're not this, 495 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,640 what we're doing is not a course in meetings, right? 496 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,760 It's going to, it'll help meetings, but it's a style of 497 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,800 leadership that we have to have when we're leading project 498 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,840 teams, when we're leading consulting engagements, when 499 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,400 we're leading transformation. So we're really trying to 500 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:53,280 transform the culture of an organization by intervening at 501 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,240 the level where we're going to spend all this time, which is in 502 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,640 meetings itself. Let's talk about, you know, 503 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,600 after the program kind of just around out this conversation. 504 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:08,400 I'm curious to hear is there any follow up from your organization 505 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,280 with the folks who have taken it? 506 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,160 Is there any success stories? You know, you don't obviously 507 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,840 have to divulge any specific people, but anything that you 508 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,120 would want to share in terms of the results that you're seeing? 509 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,880 Well, I mean, there's a big difference between training 510 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,200 people and using this as a cultural intervention. 511 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,560 Now, for a long time, this was a piece of cultural 512 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,720 transformation. We would train the C team in 513 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,960 this style of leadership and then roll it down. 514 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:42,400 When you're training people, it's very hard to change the 515 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,760 culture if you don't have support from the C team level. 516 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,880 So in terms of follow up, when we were running it as a cultural 517 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,240 intervention, it was built into people's performance appraisal. 518 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,360 You know, it was, you know, people would meet with their 519 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,200 managers who were already trained in this. 520 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,240 They were, they would then come out and they and then meet again 521 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:03,520 and talk about how they're going to do it. 522 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,040 The honest truth is right now we're training people. 523 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:13,280 And so that's why we like to work with an intact PMO or an 524 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,920 intact change in transformation group because you're not going 525 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:21,960 to transform a giant company like Merck or Apple or Amazon 526 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,200 training even 1000 people, right? 527 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,800 But you can transform APMO, right? 528 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:34,920 Or a process improvement group, you know, doing lean by training 529 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,160 all those people so that they are now in a position where they 530 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:40,880 can hold one another accountable. 531 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,000 And the leader of the group has to go through that because she, 532 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,440 he or they obviously are the ones that that are the key to 533 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,720 building the capability, holding people accountable. 534 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,200 So generally when we run the program, what we want to do is 535 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,880 run it for 12 people in an intact organization, train 536 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,440 everyone in this set of skills. So we begin transforming the 537 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,040 culture of that part of the organization who are then change 538 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,640 agents because they're all in change roles. 539 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,520 You can then start modeling that for others. 540 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,880 But I wouldn't want to sit here and say any training program is 541 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:16,600 going to transform an organization. 542 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,720 There's so many other systems that have to happen. 543 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,680 How we select people, our communication systems, you know, 544 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,840 how our succession plan. I mean, there's a lot that goes 545 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:31,480 into transformation, and this is one piece of that, but at a very 546 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,080 practical level. Absolutely, absolutely. 547 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,120 And I think that's how we intro you is that I don't even know 548 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,280 how you even began to master this concept because it's just 549 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:46,120 been so such a complex and not an easy thing to have to do for 550 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,320 an organization. So for that, I am so gracious 551 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,360 and honored that you were able to join us today for this 552 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,640 conversation because I think there's a lot of folks who may 553 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,000 be in that bubble of, you know, considering something like this 554 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,320 for their organization. And hopefully through this 555 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,840 conversation, they've been able to figure that out or get some 556 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,200 insights as to whether or not they would want to move forward 557 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,200 with that. So why don't we round out the 558 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,920 conversation, Evan, with kind of sharing the details around like 559 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,040 how this program works, so you know, where can they access more 560 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:19,160 information, that sort of thing. Well, they probably the easiest 561 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,760 thing is to just find me on LinkedIn, right? 562 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,760 Evan Unger. I think the last time I looked 563 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,880 there, 5 Evan Ungers, but I'll be the one who's pictures. 564 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,240 I've got a blue shirt and a goofy grin and you can access my 565 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:31,880 website there. It's a mouthful. 566 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,880 That's probably the easiest way now with new clients, right? 567 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,920 Four days is a big commitment and in this day and age, what a 568 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,320 lot of people want are like a master class or a LinkedIn 569 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,440 learning video series where we can watch it self-paced 570 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,000 learning. And I have clients who ask for 571 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,680 that all the time. And I and I always say I'm not 572 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,720 interested, go find someone else going to waste your time and 573 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,280 money. And some clients find that a 574 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,360 little off putting. They're like the clients always 575 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,400 right. I say, you're not right. 576 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:02,440 And they'll say, what do you mean? 577 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,320 I'll say, did you have kids who learned to drive? 578 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,720 And they'll say, of course, I'll say, would you ever let your 579 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,640 kids watch 10 videos on how to drive and hand them the car keys 580 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,840 for 10 videos on how to swim and hand them a car key? 581 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,240 So how the program works, it's practice, right? 582 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,560 It's two consecutive days and two consecutive weeks, right? 583 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,160 So we will run a program, for example, on a Monday, Tuesday in 584 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,560 the first week and finish it the Monday, Tuesday of the second 585 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,000 week. It could be Wednesday, Thursday, 586 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,080 Wednesday, Thursday. But as I said earlier, it's all 587 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,400 practice. There's two hours of lecture in 588 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,320 the program. No one learns through lecture. 589 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,040 No one learns through watching videos. 590 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,320 They learn through doing. And it's action learning based. 591 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:48,320 And the reason it is powerful working in an intact PMO, right, 592 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,640 is because just having to give each other as participants 593 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,520 coaching and feedback in and of itself, there's a major team 594 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,520 building piece and skill building piece and relation 595 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,120 piece of having to give feedback. 596 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,680 So it's chock full of practice. It's a four day program. 597 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:09,720 I always with new clients say, hey, send me your two best 598 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,320 people. I'm going to deeply discount 599 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,680 that for you, right? Because I know people need to 600 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,400 stress test something and I know they're going to come out of 601 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,880 there and say, amazing, all the people in the PMO have to be 602 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,880 trained in this or are people doing agile or lean or whatever 603 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,240 it is. Because those are the type of 604 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,960 people doing high stakes workshop facilitation 605 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,240 organizations. And so people going to reach out 606 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:36,800 me on my website and they can set up a meeting there. 607 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,600 And that's, you know, the best way to reach me. 608 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,200 Amazing. I will make sure that I drop all 609 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,920 the links to your LinkedIn as well as to your website around 610 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,760 the program so that everybody listening to this episode can 611 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,120 access it. And more importantly, have a 612 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,760 conversation with you about whether their organization or if 613 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,720 they've got a team that they want to go through this program 614 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,360 and and learn a lot more about how to facilitate team 615 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,560 collaboration in this high stakes environment. 616 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,680 And then let's not forget virtually as well. 617 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,239 So, Evan, any other thoughts to leave with our audience before I 618 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,880 let you go for the day? We are closing right, so they're 619 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:13,760 staying with this plane metaphor, right. 620 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,280 The five things we're trying to teach people is that take off 621 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,080 piece then how to handle challenging people, right, 622 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,199 especially senior people. And then the third thing we do 623 00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:25,600 in the program is the art of holding space. 624 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,920 The tools and techniques to hear from all voices from diverse 625 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,800 include. But the fourth thing is landing, 626 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,120 right? And so people do a fairly 627 00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:38,320 mediocre job of landing the plane. 628 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:39,679 And so we got to help him with that. 629 00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:42,320 And then the fifth thing we're going to help him with is what 630 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,239 you do before you show up. Because in a high stakes 631 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,480 workshop meeting, the work is not the meeting itself. 632 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,480 The work is everything you did as a change agent to set it up 633 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:51,400 for success. And so those are the five 634 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,520 fundamentals we're working on. And we'd love to have your 635 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,600 listeners reach out. I'm glad to always Zoom with 636 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,560 people, show them the specifics and, you know, send us one or 637 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,680 two people to check it out. I'm confident it'll be the best 638 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,440 program they take in their career because I hear that 639 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,720 decades later from people. We've been doing it for 30 640 00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:15,080 years. Amazing. 641 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,960 I, Evan, thank you so much for joining us today, sharing all 642 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,520 the wisdom that you could without giving us the full 643 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,240 entire workshop as part of this episode. 644 00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:27,400 I'm so excited for our listeners in terms of those who will reach 645 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,360 out to you and be able to go through the program themselves. 646 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,480 If you do work through Evan, please let us know, drop a 647 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,400 comment with this episode and let us know how that goes for 648 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:37,920 you. Evan. 649 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,000 Well, thank you so much for your time today. 650 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,960 Like I said, I'll make sure all your links, associated links are 651 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,240 a part of this episode so that people can reach out to you. 652 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,960 And for the folks that are listening who are maybe new to 653 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,440 the everyday PM, give us a follow, give us a like all those 654 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,960 things to show your love for and support for the everyday PM. 655 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,920 If you can leave us a review on any of the podcasting platforms 656 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,160 you are listening to this on, please do so with love Five Star 657 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:03,800 Review. Great comments. 658 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,880 Feedback as always appreciated as well. 659 00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:08,120 You can follow me on LinkedIn as well. 660 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,480 And if I need to connect you in some way to Evan because you 661 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,480 can't reach them, I'm happy to try to do that too. 662 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,360 Thank you so much, everybody. On behalf of Evan, myself and 663 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,440 everybody else that is associated with the everyday PM 664 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,520 in terms of the production pieces of this, thank you so 665 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,200 much for tuning in and we will see you on the next episode. 666 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:26,320 Take care.