1 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,800 Welcome to the everyday p.m. Podcast, the podcast, where we 2 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,700 discussed project management principles for your everyday 3 00:00:15,700 --> 00:00:18,000 life. My name is Ann campea, and I'm a 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,500 certified project / program manager with over a decade of 5 00:00:21,500 --> 00:00:23,200 experience working for healthcare. 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,500 Retail consumer goods and Tech Industries. 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,900 I am so excited to welcome two very special. 8 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,300 Yes, and if you are a Avid follower of the everyday p.m. 9 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,700 You will have seen or listen to another episode with both Mark 10 00:00:37,700 --> 00:00:40,500 and Greg on it. So I am welcoming them back to 11 00:00:40,500 --> 00:00:43,800 the podcast, Mark, and Greg. Thank you so much for joining me 12 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,900 again. And today we are talking about 13 00:00:46,900 --> 00:00:51,000 why projects fail. This is such an exciting topic. 14 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,700 I can't wait to dig in. But before we do that, let's 15 00:00:53,700 --> 00:00:57,100 have both of my guests introduce themselves to our audience. 16 00:00:57,100 --> 00:00:59,800 So Greg, why don't we start with you for those who have not? 17 00:01:00,100 --> 00:01:02,800 You yet, although you've been on, I don't know. 18 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,000 What is this. May be your fifth episode of the 19 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,500 everyday p.m. Podcast for those who have not 20 00:01:07,500 --> 00:01:09,100 met you yet for our new audience. 21 00:01:09,100 --> 00:01:11,400 Please take a brief moment to introduce yourself. 22 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:13,800 Thank you will. And thanks for having me on 23 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:15,900 again. And my name is Greg kristensen. 24 00:01:15,900 --> 00:01:17,700 I'm, the vice president of project Hub. 25 00:01:17,700 --> 00:01:21,200 That's a project management software solution and I'm happy 26 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,200 to be here with you. Once again to cover. 27 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,400 Another interesting topic that should help people get their 28 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,800 projects moving Faster by learning why they fail. 29 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,700 Awesome and Mark. Hey, thanks for having me and 30 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,300 I've written a bunch of books on project management. 31 00:01:38,300 --> 00:01:42,500 I created the visual project management methodology called 32 00:01:42,500 --> 00:01:49,100 Viewpoint and that's kind of what I'm promoting and I've done 33 00:01:49,100 --> 00:01:52,000 lots of big projects. Lots of small ones, lots of made 34 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,200 lots of mistakes to so but we're going to talk about those are 35 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:01,700 are we now? So, let's go ahead and dig in 36 00:02:01,700 --> 00:02:06,400 dig in here because this is such a great kind of very macro topic 37 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,300 that we can easily get into dive into the details about. 38 00:02:09,300 --> 00:02:12,500 But I want to kind of start with some statistics that I pulled up 39 00:02:12,500 --> 00:02:16,700 from the interwebs here in terms of, you know, the most recent 40 00:02:16,700 --> 00:02:19,700 percentages of projects that are considered to have been 41 00:02:19,700 --> 00:02:23,100 failures. So we're hovering at about 70%, 42 00:02:23,100 --> 00:02:26,000 right? According to PMI and about 42 43 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,500 percent of the companies that reported in say that they the 44 00:02:29,500 --> 00:02:31,900 reason they failed is just because they didn't understand 45 00:02:31,900 --> 00:02:36,700 the importance of the project or of project management, which 46 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,300 baffling to me. The other percent here I have is 47 00:02:40,300 --> 00:02:44,100 55% of project. Managed project managers cited 48 00:02:44,100 --> 00:02:48,700 that it was budget overruns or or something of that sort. 49 00:02:48,700 --> 00:02:50,300 That was the reason for project failure. 50 00:02:50,300 --> 00:02:54,400 So anyhow, I think that those statistics kind of set us up for 51 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:59,400 this environment of you can plan to fail your project manager, 52 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,000 you doing. You can, but your project, 53 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,200 there's still a chance of that project going awry. 54 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,500 So let's start with your definition of failure. 55 00:03:07,500 --> 00:03:10,400 I think it's important to kind of give us a foundation of what 56 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,100 we're talking about here. So, Mark, why don't we start 57 00:03:13,100 --> 00:03:15,300 with, how do you define project failure? 58 00:03:15,700 --> 00:03:19,800 Well, project will fail. If it doesn't deliver on time. 59 00:03:20,100 --> 00:03:24,500 If it doesn't produce the result that the project was designed to 60 00:03:24,500 --> 00:03:29,000 do and I think those are the two big things over budget. 61 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,200 I mean some people will Say, well, the project failed because 62 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,700 it was over budget, but I've never seen a project that is 63 00:03:35,700 --> 00:03:39,200 actually came in at budget. So, sort of, you know, it's not 64 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,300 a failure. Just more expensive than people 65 00:03:41,300 --> 00:03:42,800 thought it was going to be. Yeah. 66 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,600 Yeah, fair enough. And how about you Greg? 67 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:51,100 Well, interestingly enough. I hang my hat on the delivery 68 00:03:51,100 --> 00:03:53,700 deadline. I think they had that everything 69 00:03:53,700 --> 00:03:55,900 is all about delivering your project on time. 70 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,500 I would agree with Mark that budgets really common. 71 00:03:59,500 --> 00:04:02,500 There is Few other factors, but I like to hang my hat on the 72 00:04:02,500 --> 00:04:04,600 date. If you can deliver on time and 73 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,800 deliver, what was promised that right? 74 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,600 There should be a huge win. The other things can be dealt 75 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:14,500 with and then kind of adding onto both of your definitions. 76 00:04:14,500 --> 00:04:18,000 There is, I tend to harp on quality. 77 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:20,500 I've worked in consumer goods for so long. 78 00:04:20,500 --> 00:04:23,500 That if I put a product out there that has some sort of 79 00:04:23,500 --> 00:04:26,500 technical failure. Then I feel like the project has 80 00:04:26,500 --> 00:04:28,000 failed. We've missed something. 81 00:04:28,300 --> 00:04:32,400 And so anything that is a Above are excuse me below, par in 82 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,000 terms of the our quality measures and what we expected 83 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,800 the product to do. I do I would consider that for 84 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:42,200 myself a project failure. So I think go ahead. 85 00:04:42,500 --> 00:04:47,200 Well, I was gonna say I as well. That's sort of falls in the 86 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:48,700 project. Deliver what it was supposed to 87 00:04:48,700 --> 00:04:52,200 do, you know, often it's a working project or product. 88 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,300 It's a working product or a product that will be successful 89 00:04:55,300 --> 00:04:58,000 in the marketplace or the piece of software. 90 00:04:58,300 --> 00:04:59,800 That doesn't work the way. It's supposed to. 91 00:04:59,900 --> 00:05:03,300 Or, you know, anything that falls outside of this 92 00:05:03,300 --> 00:05:05,900 specifications of what the project is supposed to deliver 93 00:05:05,900 --> 00:05:10,100 is a failure. So, I'm sorry to interrupt. 94 00:05:10,500 --> 00:05:12,200 No. No, that's this is a 95 00:05:12,207 --> 00:05:13,200 conversation. Right? 96 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,200 So Mark, I think you've written about why projects fail and now 97 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,600 that we have our foundation for this conversation. 98 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:21,900 What? Why? 99 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,600 Why I think that's the question. We all want to know why do 100 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,800 projects fail. Well, I think there are there 101 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:34,000 five. Things that are contributing to 102 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:42,400 the project failure and none of those are the plan none of them, 103 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:48,200 you know, because plans no plan is no plan is perfect. 104 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,600 Right? There's just no sense. 105 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:52,700 So, I've got it. Boiled down to like five 106 00:05:52,700 --> 00:05:56,400 different things. And one of the things that 107 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,300 happens in project management during execution is, That 108 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,700 project the project processes tends to focus on what have we 109 00:06:04,700 --> 00:06:07,400 accomplished instead of what do we need to accomplish? 110 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:08,800 Right? And we talked about that. 111 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:13,100 The last time we were together. The other thing is, you know, 112 00:06:13,100 --> 00:06:19,400 how, how flexible is the team is the team inflexible. 113 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:24,500 Well, this is not my job, but I sent this guy an email, but I'm 114 00:06:24,500 --> 00:06:27,800 looking at, you know, people are, you know, do they have the 115 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:29,700 same objective? Right is everybody? 116 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,600 Beyond the project team had the same objective to deliver. 117 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,700 The project is a crystal-clear year in this project. 118 00:06:35,700 --> 00:06:37,900 This is what you're going to do while you're here. 119 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,100 And so many times I've seen particularly in 120 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:43,600 multidisciplinary projects to me. 121 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,700 You've got the engineers. You've got the Fabricators a 122 00:06:46,700 --> 00:06:48,800 production here. They're all operating in their 123 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,400 silos. And the only person that really 124 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,400 is owning. The project is the project 125 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,300 manager and the project sponsor, right? 126 00:06:56,300 --> 00:07:00,500 Those are the other two people. And so I see that if Teams are 127 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:07,000 not don't have the same goal. Then project was definitely be 128 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,400 extremely difficult to manage highly unlikely to succeed. 129 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:16,100 The other thing that I see is that when the priorities the 130 00:07:16,100 --> 00:07:18,900 test priorities, for the people who are on the project are 131 00:07:18,900 --> 00:07:24,100 unclear or conflicting or constantly changing, you know, 132 00:07:24,100 --> 00:07:28,000 that's going to be creating a lot of noise in the project 133 00:07:28,100 --> 00:07:32,000 delivery process. And then fourth is. 134 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,800 We don't know where the constraint is for the project. 135 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:43,900 So I think take a page out of goldratt spoke. 136 00:07:43,900 --> 00:07:48,500 You know, the constraint is the thing that is limiting the 137 00:07:48,500 --> 00:07:50,500 product project from moving forward. 138 00:07:50,500 --> 00:07:54,200 And it's not clear what that constraint is where that 139 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,800 Leverage is. So people would get focused out 140 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,300 of the weeds and they start working on the wrong things. 141 00:07:59,300 --> 00:08:03,200 And so that project, and then number five is just Pain 142 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,300 sadness, you know, the tempo of the project, you know, 143 00:08:06,300 --> 00:08:09,000 sometimes, you know, we send an email and then we played a week 144 00:08:09,100 --> 00:08:10,400 and it's our next project meeting. 145 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,800 Oh my gosh, like, I never got back to me, you know, or 146 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,100 whatever, right? Then the team is slow. 147 00:08:15,100 --> 00:08:23,400 So focusing on the past mixed messages on what the goal is 148 00:08:24,900 --> 00:08:26,900 priorities. Constantly shifting. 149 00:08:27,300 --> 00:08:29,800 We don't know where the constraint is and slow response. 150 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,000 That's five. So, I spent a lot of time 151 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,400 talking about this fight. Sorry, no, no don't apologize. 152 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,600 It just got me thinking about, you know, when I started my 153 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,500 career as a p.m. One of the things that I kind of 154 00:08:42,500 --> 00:08:46,100 really just became ingrained in my the way I conduct myself is 155 00:08:46,100 --> 00:08:51,200 that no matter who's failing within the project team that It 156 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,800 ultimately rests on the project, managers shoulders. 157 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,900 And so as you're talking through those Five Points, it kind of 158 00:08:56,900 --> 00:09:02,400 brings me back to this the thought of do you believe that 159 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,800 of Those five the project manager has any type of control 160 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,800 over trying to bring the project back on track? 161 00:09:10,500 --> 00:09:15,900 Yeah, no, not typically because I think if we take just take the 162 00:09:15,900 --> 00:09:19,200 first one, the first one the project manager does focusing on 163 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,600 the on the future and you know, changing the emphasis of the 164 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,500 team from reporting on what they have done and telling you what 165 00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:30,600 the problems are and Shifting the emphasis from that, to, 166 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,200 okay. What are we going to do today? 167 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,600 What we're going to This weekend who's going to do it. 168 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:39,000 That is the job of the project manager, but the project manager 169 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,100 can't fix the project manager alone. 170 00:09:42,100 --> 00:09:48,500 Cannot fix the problem of mixed or incorrect, reward systems. 171 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:53,500 So for example, purchasing guy, you know, he is, he's being 172 00:09:53,500 --> 00:09:55,900 measured on purchase price. Variance. 173 00:09:55,900 --> 00:09:58,000 Did I get the cheapest one or did I get it? 174 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,700 You know, did I get the right vendor? 175 00:10:00,100 --> 00:10:02,800 And so you're bringing this supply chain guy on. 176 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,600 Org are Gala on to your team? And they're you know, your 177 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,200 project is in trouble. And you need to this supplier to 178 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,400 get moving air freight Charter, playing whatever it is, to get 179 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,800 this item that you need. But the purchasing guy says, 180 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,500 well, if I do that then you know, I'm going to my metric is 181 00:10:18,500 --> 00:10:21,400 going to suffer. So and so the project manager is 182 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,600 not going to have control over that because that's an 183 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,000 organization. You should not p.m. 184 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,100 Now, the p.m. Can recognize it and Elevate 185 00:10:28,100 --> 00:10:32,900 that, but certainly the problem of the mixed. 186 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,600 Ward's of or incorrect rewards will definitely is out of their 187 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:39,500 scope. Got it. 188 00:10:39,500 --> 00:10:43,800 Yeah, and that now project managers can work on the task 189 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,400 priorities. If we, if we know what the work 190 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,000 is and where we're going to do, you know, the project manager 191 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,700 can focus on that. But what I see is, you know, a 192 00:10:53,700 --> 00:10:56,700 lot of project managers are playing whack-a-mole, you know 193 00:10:56,700 --> 00:11:00,500 or just responding to the boss or whatever the thing is and 194 00:11:00,500 --> 00:11:02,800 don't have a good sense of pushing. 195 00:11:02,900 --> 00:11:05,900 Back and say, listen, you know, you giving me this priority that 196 00:11:05,900 --> 00:11:08,200 I've got to do this thing. But if I do this thing, then 197 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:09,900 there's other things going to suffer. 198 00:11:10,300 --> 00:11:13,000 And that's certainly something that the project manager has 199 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:17,600 control over the project manager can also know where the 200 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,800 constraint is. Damn straight shows up. 201 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,700 It's not it's not hard to spot. It's you know, I think if you 202 00:11:25,700 --> 00:11:28,700 ask the project team or second string goes Herbie, he's over 203 00:11:28,700 --> 00:11:32,700 there, you know, everybody knows who it is because that person or 204 00:11:32,700 --> 00:11:36,200 that department, that supplier, they're being named in every 205 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,100 project meeting that you go to the, right? 206 00:11:38,100 --> 00:11:41,300 So, it's not. But what project managers don't 207 00:11:41,300 --> 00:11:45,400 necessarily recognize that, that is the critical leverage point 208 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:50,400 to push your project forward. And that's certainly the job of 209 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,900 the project manager to break that bottle leg and get it 210 00:11:53,900 --> 00:11:56,800 elevated to the right person. And then of course, the 211 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:02,300 responsiveness the project manager, you know, I don't want 212 00:12:02,300 --> 00:12:04,400 the project. I never thought that the project 213 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,800 manager should be the task police now. 214 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,400 Well, the project manager can say, Hey, you know, we're 215 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:18,400 getting slow response, you know, we need to pick up the tempo but 216 00:12:18,500 --> 00:12:20,500 That goes back to the measurement problem that I 217 00:12:20,500 --> 00:12:23,700 talked about a minute ago. I mean, if people are not aware 218 00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:27,500 that, you know, we had the rule 24 hours, you know, any 219 00:12:27,500 --> 00:12:29,000 question. Any problem, you have to respond 220 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,200 to 24 hours and that is the project manager can set that 221 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:37,200 expectation and enforce that expectation through smart 222 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,100 management. Meaning, you know, if I've got a 223 00:12:40,108 --> 00:12:43,000 team of people and, you know, a little will pick on the supply 224 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,100 chain guy again, just because I like the supply chain, guys, you 225 00:12:47,100 --> 00:12:52,300 know, the But the, you know, the the project manager can work 226 00:12:52,300 --> 00:12:55,400 with the leader of the project of the supply chain 227 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,700 organizational, say listen, we need 24-hour. 228 00:12:57,700 --> 00:13:00,000 Can you help me with that? And that's something that 229 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,900 certainly is in the control of the project manager. 230 00:13:03,300 --> 00:13:04,400 Choi. Sure. 231 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,400 So really the big, the big everything is in the project 232 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:14,500 managers realm of control except getting all the people on the 233 00:13:14,500 --> 00:13:17,800 project on the project. Got it. 234 00:13:17,900 --> 00:13:19,300 Yeah. Sense, Greg. 235 00:13:19,300 --> 00:13:23,500 What do you think about that? Well, as you know, and we talked 236 00:13:23,500 --> 00:13:26,900 about it on previous episodes. I've been consuming a lot of the 237 00:13:26,900 --> 00:13:30,800 things that Mark is written. I'm a little bit more, well, 238 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,800 versed than I probably really am if that makes any sense because 239 00:13:35,900 --> 00:13:38,800 a lot of it makes sense to me, kind of naturally because of one 240 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,200 of our, what I've already consumed of his and then I'm a 241 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:45,500 little bit familiar with goldratt and his Concepts and so 242 00:13:45,500 --> 00:13:48,700 I'm going to bring up something Mark brings up sometimes but 243 00:13:48,700 --> 00:13:51,000 goldratt specifically says is a quote. 244 00:13:51,300 --> 00:13:54,800 Show me how you measure me and I'll show you how I behave in 245 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:56,600 order. It really gets down to is the 246 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:58,400 behaviors. So you've got these project 247 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,700 managers that are trying to maintain and push and manage 248 00:14:02,700 --> 00:14:05,600 that project. They've got a certain amount of 249 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,700 authority. They're empowered Etc. 250 00:14:08,100 --> 00:14:11,600 But still who gets put in place that's not on them. 251 00:14:11,700 --> 00:14:15,700 So they have to really fight at actually think I'm really 252 00:14:15,700 --> 00:14:20,100 interested your answer on this and because you're really good 253 00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:22,100 at that. You know, a lot of the soft 254 00:14:22,100 --> 00:14:25,300 skills, a Zen approach to how to get people kind of moving in the 255 00:14:25,300 --> 00:14:27,600 right direction marks, really big on. 256 00:14:27,900 --> 00:14:29,600 Let's not worry about, who, what? 257 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,300 When yesterday, let's look at, where are we at? 258 00:14:32,300 --> 00:14:33,900 Right now? Let's get things moving. 259 00:14:33,900 --> 00:14:36,300 So I don't know if I really answered your question, but 260 00:14:36,300 --> 00:14:39,900 that's what I'm doing here, is taking it in and realizing that 261 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,800 it's all about getting people moving the right way, focusing 262 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,200 on the right things and that's a behavioral change. 263 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,200 That is a challenge as you go down line. 264 00:14:49,900 --> 00:14:53,300 Yeah, and Afraid to commit, right? 265 00:14:53,300 --> 00:14:56,200 I think there's a lot of moving Parts here and one of the most 266 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,100 unpredictable variables is the people. 267 00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:01,900 It's the people that you inherit on your team. 268 00:15:01,900 --> 00:15:04,900 It's the people who are sponsoring the project and I 269 00:15:04,908 --> 00:15:08,600 think what you're saying Mark is that, wow, we have so much 270 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,300 control over some of the parameters that are set forth 271 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,500 within our project as a project manager that there are really 272 00:15:16,700 --> 00:15:21,000 some things that we either inherit or they come to us. 273 00:15:21,100 --> 00:15:25,700 A specific way and it will it might take Moving Mountains to 274 00:15:25,700 --> 00:15:29,500 get that to, to be able to be something that we can control as 275 00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:31,700 project managers. Or maybe we just will never be 276 00:15:31,700 --> 00:15:35,900 able to control that one variable in within the project 277 00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:38,800 and that comes with. Even if you walk it back a 278 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,000 little bit, that could be company culture, that could be 279 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,600 the support of your leadership team, that could be, you know, 280 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:49,200 misalignment on company strategy versus what the project is 281 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,000 actually executing against theirs. 282 00:15:51,300 --> 00:15:54,000 There's a whole plethora of things that I've seen in my 283 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,500 experience that have led to project failure. 284 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,500 That really ultimately is out of the control of the project 285 00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:03,100 manager. I do think I inherited that 286 00:16:03,100 --> 00:16:05,900 perception that everything is in the control of the project 287 00:16:05,900 --> 00:16:10,700 manager because I do tend to lead so much with empathy and 288 00:16:10,700 --> 00:16:13,200 that, that tends to weigh on your shoulders. 289 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:18,200 If you, if you lead in that way, because then you want to without 290 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,200 thinking about it. You are inheriting all All of 291 00:16:21,208 --> 00:16:24,700 the problems around you and you're trying to fix all the 292 00:16:24,700 --> 00:16:29,100 problems around you which can be come across as very authentic to 293 00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:30,800 some people. And that's how you manage the 294 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,100 people part of it, but then can on the flip side of it Playing 295 00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:37,800 devil's, advocate to my own way that I lead can. 296 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,000 Then weigh very heavily on your shoulders and you think that you 297 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,500 can control certain things of the project that are failing. 298 00:16:43,500 --> 00:16:47,500 When ultimately if you look back at it or you look at the root 299 00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:50,200 cause it was something that was never in my control to begin 300 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:51,900 with. So I think Mark, you make a lot 301 00:16:51,900 --> 00:16:56,500 of great points about what is in our sphere of control as PMs. 302 00:16:56,500 --> 00:17:01,200 And what is not and having this this mentality of don't harp on 303 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,900 the past for too long because the projects going to continue 304 00:17:03,900 --> 00:17:07,000 to fail until you try to start focusing on the future and how 305 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,300 to get it back on track. So is there any I mean you 306 00:17:10,300 --> 00:17:14,900 talked a lot about some of the signs and things that we can 307 00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:17,900 look out for. But what what specifically are 308 00:17:17,900 --> 00:17:20,300 some of the early warning signs that you've seen in your 309 00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:22,599 experience in? And how have you been able to 310 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:25,000 troubleshoot that to get the project back on track? 311 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,800 Well, I think the, you know, the first, the first one is, you 312 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:32,200 know, focusing on the past and that, you know, that's, I want 313 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:37,200 to say, that's the easiest thing to fix, but it's easy because it 314 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,200 doesn't require a lot of process change or anything. 315 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,500 That's just changing your approach and how you approach 316 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,300 the task of managing the project, right? 317 00:17:47,300 --> 00:17:51,000 So, you know, that sense of being future-oriented. 318 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:56,500 Do you know you can lead with mpany empathy and you know still 319 00:17:56,500 --> 00:17:59,900 focus on the future. I think what happens is, people 320 00:17:59,900 --> 00:18:03,300 get caught up in the we made this mistake or there was a 321 00:18:03,300 --> 00:18:08,300 defect or the supplier is late or this engineer, you know, they 322 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,800 missed a deadline and we can get all caught up in kind of that 323 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:17,800 for the lack of a better term called all that drama of missed 324 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,600 expectations, right? So it's a great project manager 325 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:26,000 can Get caught up in the Miss expectation and say well or they 326 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:26,900 can say. All right. 327 00:18:26,900 --> 00:18:30,800 Well, this is the reality as it is right now and going forward 328 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,900 we want to do it this way and you you know, us and we know 329 00:18:33,900 --> 00:18:37,100 that people make mistakes and you know, Miss deadlines and 330 00:18:37,100 --> 00:18:39,500 that, you know, that's just part of it, right? 331 00:18:39,500 --> 00:18:42,200 And then, you know you, if you're doing software, you 332 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,400 rather through test and then it fails test in your account and 333 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,400 then you get to go do back and loop it, Loop it back again or, 334 00:18:48,900 --> 00:18:52,900 you know, you didn't get the Certification that you wanted to 335 00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:55,600 get you know, and now you've got to go back and change the 336 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,700 product again and you know, all of that stuff happens, but I 337 00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:04,000 think the project manager can really have an influence on, you 338 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,500 know, alright. Are we going to beat up the guy 339 00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:09,500 that miss their deadlines? Are we going to just say? 340 00:19:09,500 --> 00:19:14,700 All right, let's go well and of course, you know that we're all 341 00:19:14,700 --> 00:19:20,100 humans here so we can get mad. Get mad. 342 00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:23,800 That happens to and and that's all right. 343 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,300 I'm just thinking that the project manager really has to 344 00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:28,500 think about. All right, what's coming next? 345 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,800 You know, what's going to be the next obstacle? 346 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,500 Who needs to address that? So if you think about what the 347 00:19:34,500 --> 00:19:38,100 project managers doing the project managers looking ahead 348 00:19:38,100 --> 00:19:44,100 how far ahead, you know, you we don't know and anticipating 349 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:48,800 what's coming up and making sure that certainly nowhere. 350 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:53,400 He's my phone there. The, you know, the project 351 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:57,100 manager can be proactive in that kind of stuff. 352 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:02,900 And it's not, you know, we're not being authoritarian. 353 00:20:02,900 --> 00:20:05,000 We're not, you know, beating people up. 354 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:06,700 You know, what we're at, what we're doing is were saying, hey, 355 00:20:06,700 --> 00:20:10,200 you know, here's the expectation and, you know, thanks for coming 356 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,500 to the meeting, but the meeting is not about reporting, you 357 00:20:13,500 --> 00:20:15,200 know, if you want to report, will have a separate meeting 358 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:16,900 about that. This is about planning our 359 00:20:16,900 --> 00:20:18,800 activities for the next for the next step. 360 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,700 And that's the most important. You know, in terms of and of 361 00:20:22,700 --> 00:20:25,100 course, you know, when we have these conflicts, you know that 362 00:20:25,300 --> 00:20:28,100 we're you know, we're missing deadlines or you got somebody on 363 00:20:28,100 --> 00:20:30,000 the project. It can't deliver when they're 364 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:36,900 supposed to excuse me, then it's up to the project manager to do 365 00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:39,000 a dive on that and say why, right? 366 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,900 And I think that a lot of times what happens is we don't even 367 00:20:41,900 --> 00:20:45,500 consider the fact that, hey, this guy's not going to get a 368 00:20:45,700 --> 00:20:50,900 bonus or his, his other, his real boss, or her real boss is 369 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:55,000 Give them a problem. If they do what you want to do. 370 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:56,800 And I think that is a project manager. 371 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,400 We have to be sensitive to that and say, well, listen, you know, 372 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,800 it's not this guy's fault that he's stuck in a conflict. 373 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:04,400 Right? So, you know, the project 374 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,900 manager can look for those conflicts and be more of a 375 00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:12,400 conflict resolution person than a task manager because we 376 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,500 already, you know, we don't have the project manager to be the 377 00:21:14,500 --> 00:21:16,400 task manager, right? The task police. 378 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,800 That's not what we want. Absolutely. 379 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:24,100 So now I Lost my truth. Well, well Greg, you know, 380 00:21:24,300 --> 00:21:25,700 you're learning all of this, right? 381 00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:29,700 In terms of why projects fail, you're taking in some of what 382 00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:32,800 Mark has written on this. And how has that really shaped 383 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,100 your understanding of project execution. 384 00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:36,500 How does that intertwine with everything? 385 00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:44,000 You've been learning? Well, I think overall, Got the 386 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,400 mascot in the background there. I was going to say, I think your 387 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,200 dog has something to say about it. 388 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,800 Well, you know, he might have a couple of project failures and 389 00:21:53,808 --> 00:21:56,500 he's handling it wrong. I think my dog is now talking to 390 00:21:56,500 --> 00:21:57,400 your dog. This is great. 391 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,000 Yes. So for me, I've been really 392 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,600 trying to differentiate and I'm trying to differentiate well 393 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:12,700 where things happen as it relates to. 394 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,100 Planning and execution. So I'm very focused on the 395 00:22:16,100 --> 00:22:19,500 execution aspect of things. And what I'm actually finding 396 00:22:19,500 --> 00:22:22,200 out when I take what I learned from you, and what I learned 397 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,600 from Mark and then what? I put my own spin on, when I'm 398 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,500 out talking to people about it. I'm finding that most people, I 399 00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:32,200 even did a survey recently didn't get a heavy response. 400 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:37,000 But I did a survey in the majority of people think that 401 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,600 their projects fail in the planning phase, and I'm not 402 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,200 saying plans aren't important. They are. 403 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,500 Absolutely critical, but what I've really learned where I'm at 404 00:22:45,500 --> 00:22:49,300 right now today is your plan is great, but it can't see what 405 00:22:49,300 --> 00:22:53,700 didn't happen yet. And that's why execution is the 406 00:22:53,700 --> 00:22:58,200 key execution is the only place a project can actually fail. 407 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,400 If kids in the view that's been shaped for me thus far, that's 408 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:08,200 where you're going to find the most impactful way to drive your 409 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,000 project. What's late for you? 410 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,100 Let's dig in there. Because why do you think then 411 00:23:14,100 --> 00:23:17,900 that the survey response was so heavy on the on that part of the 412 00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:21,600 project? And he thought, I actually think 413 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:29,700 that we are all often trained that way by our jobs, by life 414 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,700 and process in and of itself is process. 415 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,900 It's a great thing, it really is, but when you've set a plan 416 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,300 and initiated process, now, Now what happens, what happens when 417 00:23:41,300 --> 00:23:44,900 the things come up that my plan could not have possibly seen 418 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,100 what happens when I discover something. 419 00:23:48,100 --> 00:23:52,400 Like, well, we are actually taking our plan putting it into 420 00:23:52,500 --> 00:23:54,900 motion and we're finding that the people that are a part of 421 00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:58,100 that plan are overestimating. In other words, putting in too 422 00:23:58,100 --> 00:24:01,100 much safe. Time on their estimated 423 00:24:01,100 --> 00:24:05,100 completions. So it has an impact that, sorry 424 00:24:05,100 --> 00:24:09,100 about that, an impact, that permeates the project execution. 425 00:24:09,100 --> 00:24:13,000 It It's showing up throughout. So I think the reason people 426 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,600 responded in that way, as they think, that's where it happens. 427 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,400 And interestingly enough those that chose for example, 428 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:24,300 multitasking or unplanned constraints uncanny, unplanned 429 00:24:24,300 --> 00:24:27,400 constraints are actually bottlenecks that you didn't see 430 00:24:27,700 --> 00:24:32,100 in your plan. So it was the survey was 431 00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:34,700 designed in a way to see what people really think. 432 00:24:34,700 --> 00:24:38,100 Multitasking in. And of itself, actually is one 433 00:24:38,100 --> 00:24:40,200 of the most problematic. Things that happens in the 434 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,500 execution phase because if you've got too much buffer on 435 00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:48,100 what you're doing and she's got too much buffer on what she's 436 00:24:48,100 --> 00:24:50,900 doing. It starts to create time gaps 437 00:24:51,100 --> 00:24:54,800 where people aren't actually doing that for this project. 438 00:24:54,900 --> 00:24:58,300 They're multitasking. The the reason multitasking is 439 00:24:58,300 --> 00:25:03,200 such a bad thing is one. Person cannot do two things at 440 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,600 once with full force. It's not possible, right? 441 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,300 So the survey Was really designed to figure out what are 442 00:25:11,300 --> 00:25:15,000 people thinking, and it's what I suspected and it's what I'm what 443 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,300 I'm really focused on now, so I'm trying to kind of stitch 444 00:25:18,300 --> 00:25:21,200 that together and figure out how to resolve it for people and 445 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,200 it's challenging because they know they have to change 446 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,100 behaviors and they don't really want to because then their boss 447 00:25:26,100 --> 00:25:28,800 is going to say, what are you doing? 448 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,500 I'm trying to do well and they're like, well, yeah, but 449 00:25:32,500 --> 00:25:35,300 what about this? So becomes a mess, you know, 450 00:25:35,300 --> 00:25:40,000 it's interesting that dot to because when I Remember when I 451 00:25:40,008 --> 00:25:44,100 was studying for the PNP and and in some of the courses I was 452 00:25:44,100 --> 00:25:46,600 taking that there was such a huge emphasis. 453 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,500 And I think it also, hovered around pmbok 6th edition where 454 00:25:50,500 --> 00:25:54,100 there was a huge emphasis, and the inputs and outputs of what 455 00:25:54,100 --> 00:25:59,600 you were doing in the planning stage and how it without saying 456 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,400 it directly to a project manager. 457 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,000 It almost felt like p.m. I was telling you that, that's 458 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,100 where your emphasis and all your efforts should be placed all the 459 00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:11,200 time that you could. Put into planning, will solve 460 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,200 all the rest of the problems that come afterwards and and I 461 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,800 love the kind of the dichotomy of what you just said, Greg 462 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,700 versus what, at least the weight my takeaways from when I was 463 00:26:22,100 --> 00:26:26,900 really heavily into studying for the PMP that I just felt like 464 00:26:26,900 --> 00:26:30,600 there was some emphasis around the planning phase and that's 465 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,400 why I probably would have responded in that way to to the 466 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:38,300 survey where in fact you bring up some very very great and 467 00:26:38,300 --> 00:26:41,400 valid points. Out the areas that were then the 468 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,500 residual responses are really not happening in the planning 469 00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:47,300 phase. Those are all in the execution 470 00:26:47,300 --> 00:26:50,000 phase. So I think all great points. 471 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,500 Greg Mark, any thoughts here. Yeah. 472 00:26:52,500 --> 00:26:57,200 Well Greg that Echoes, the research that I commissioned a 473 00:26:57,208 --> 00:27:01,000 couple of years ago before I wrote my book, you know on 474 00:27:01,100 --> 00:27:05,500 visual project management that you know, what do people think 475 00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:07,700 the problem is. Most people think the problem is 476 00:27:07,700 --> 00:27:19,900 plans and If we thanks great. Surprisingly, you know, I don't 477 00:27:19,900 --> 00:27:22,700 have the research, the research in front of me. 478 00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:26,000 But if you're interested, you can go on our website and get 479 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,300 it. But, you know, we found that 480 00:27:28,300 --> 00:27:30,400 most people think that the product, the reason, the 481 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,800 projects fail is planning. And and I think that's because, 482 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,800 you know, when you get into execution, You know, unexpected 483 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,800 things happen are like I should have done a better job planning. 484 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,300 I should have, you know, I should have anticipated that. 485 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,300 Why wasn't this in the risk register? 486 00:27:46,300 --> 00:27:49,200 Oh, we didn't do risk registers. Oh, well, there's that as kind 487 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:55,100 of a planning part and I think. So what happens is people point 488 00:27:55,100 --> 00:28:00,100 to a lack of planning because they get surprises during the 489 00:28:00,100 --> 00:28:03,400 project and and of course, surprises are the very nature of 490 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,400 projects and people will get that. 491 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,200 So I think that's what leads people to. 492 00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:10,200 I think that it's the plan because they say oh, well, I 493 00:28:10,208 --> 00:28:14,100 didn't expect this and it wasn't because I didn't expect it, you 494 00:28:14,100 --> 00:28:19,400 know, so therefore I did a bad job of planning and I think that 495 00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:23,200 think that project managers are too hard on themselves on their 496 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,000 planning ability because it's you know, you think about a 497 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,400 project plan, you know, you're predicting the future, you know, 498 00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:33,400 and who I mean, okay, you know, we might have built this steam 499 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,900 shovel, you know 20 times before but this is a special one that 500 00:28:36,900 --> 00:28:38,700 goes. On a boat or something, you know 501 00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:41,300 yaxha same and then you put it on the boat in the boat sinks. 502 00:28:41,300 --> 00:28:44,600 Oh, well, you didn't think about that, you know, so we must have 503 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,600 had a bad plan. So I think it's really just a 504 00:28:48,700 --> 00:28:53,400 people are seeing these events during project execution that 505 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:58,700 they didn't expect and they say, well, I didn't expect it without 506 00:28:58,700 --> 00:29:02,200 realizing that, that's just kind of how we the Project's work and 507 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:03,900 you're going to get weird stuff happening. 508 00:29:03,900 --> 00:29:07,100 Know, someone's going to drive a fork truck off the dock or you 509 00:29:07,100 --> 00:29:10,100 know, You know, you're going to have a valve blow up or you 510 00:29:10,100 --> 00:29:13,800 know, whatever that whatever the unexpected event happens. 511 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,600 It's going to happen and you can't know what you don't know 512 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,100 until it happens. Yeah. 513 00:29:19,100 --> 00:29:22,200 Yeah. Yeah, and it's not, I mean, you 514 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,100 can only plan, you know, for what you know now and project by 515 00:29:26,100 --> 00:29:32,500 their nature are unexpected. The uncertainty is what makes a 516 00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:34,400 project a project, right? Otherwise, we'd be in 517 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,300 manufacturing, when you build a production line. 518 00:29:36,300 --> 00:29:40,100 Otherwise it You know, now it's a project because we don't know. 519 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,500 Yeah, absolutely. I mean and then when you think 520 00:29:42,500 --> 00:29:44,600 about it, even in our everyday lives, right? 521 00:29:44,700 --> 00:29:49,400 Consider consider the time that you you are planning a vacation 522 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,500 or something and you forgot all the kids jackets, I'm just 523 00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:55,700 whatever. But you know, when you have the 524 00:29:55,700 --> 00:29:59,500 conversation with your spouse, it's not it's not about oh, 525 00:29:59,500 --> 00:30:02,100 well, we forgot the jackets. Let's just go buy new ones, you 526 00:30:02,108 --> 00:30:04,700 know, you're not kind of caught in the moment you're thinking 527 00:30:04,700 --> 00:30:07,000 about. Well, it's your fault because 528 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,000 when Were packing. You totally forgot. 529 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,000 So here you are now stuck in the pattern over Munch. 530 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,500 Yeah, exactly. Didn't, you know, didn't you 531 00:30:14,500 --> 00:30:16,400 look up the weather? You know, it's always again, 532 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,300 looking retrospectively at the past and blaming the part where 533 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,900 you were planning on on things and oh, you missed that. 534 00:30:23,900 --> 00:30:27,500 So I think I think we're actually and let me know what 535 00:30:27,500 --> 00:30:29,700 you both think about this, but I do believe. 536 00:30:29,700 --> 00:30:32,700 We'll start to see a shift here in terms of that response to 537 00:30:32,700 --> 00:30:37,100 Greg survey because I feel like that is in many ways. 538 00:30:37,300 --> 00:30:41,200 Is Antiquated thinking in terms of being stuck in the planning 539 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,500 phase and blaming everything on the planning phase where as we 540 00:30:44,500 --> 00:30:48,500 get more and more hybrid or agile projects that are coming 541 00:30:48,500 --> 00:30:50,900 to the Forefront. I feel like those types of 542 00:30:50,900 --> 00:30:54,900 projects we spend maybe maybe two weeks planning maybe four 543 00:30:54,900 --> 00:30:58,500 weeks at the most planning and then we just go, we go straight 544 00:30:58,500 --> 00:31:01,200 to execution. We say we'll just figure it out 545 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,200 as we're executing as things come up and I feel like with 546 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:09,300 more of that type of those types of projects being Being managed 547 00:31:09,300 --> 00:31:12,300 by project managers that you might start to see a shift in 548 00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:15,200 that response, from blaming it all on the past and the planning 549 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,000 phase versus blame it on the execution part of it. 550 00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:21,700 I think that's a really interesting take and because 551 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,700 something that you just said and I think Mark would agree with 552 00:31:25,700 --> 00:31:31,700 this is Plans are good. But execution is where it's 553 00:31:31,700 --> 00:31:33,400 going to happen. And if you're executing in a 554 00:31:33,408 --> 00:31:37,900 certain way, if your setup say, for example, using a Viewpoint 555 00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:43,800 philosophy, your setup to see quicker mitigate faster, keep 556 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,000 the project moving. And what's interesting about 557 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,100 that whole thing is one of my side projects that I'm working 558 00:31:51,100 --> 00:31:56,000 on is something. I was planning and planning and 559 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:57,700 planning. And I was like, I gotta get 560 00:31:57,700 --> 00:31:59,900 Eddie, it's got to be like this. It's got to be like that. 561 00:31:59,900 --> 00:32:04,100 And one day I saw something where someone was talking about 562 00:32:04,100 --> 00:32:12,400 this concept of stop that go and I did and it started to make a 563 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,000 heck of a lot more sense. Because in the planning phase, I 564 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:20,200 was stuck because I was trying to anticipate everything, you 565 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,300 can't do that. You can't possibly do that. 566 00:32:22,300 --> 00:32:28,200 So, like, Mark says and and like you say, if only we can Can get 567 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,300 moving and go that way, it'll, it'll kind of fill itself in and 568 00:32:32,300 --> 00:32:35,700 it sounds haphazard and Reckless, but it's actually not 569 00:32:35,700 --> 00:32:38,500 because what you're doing is, you're simplifying and you're 570 00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:42,200 allowing yourself the ability to get unstuck and moving. 571 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,200 So it's a, it's a, it's a human concept. 572 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,000 That's applicable to our mechanized concepts of work, and 573 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:50,500 project, delivery and all those things. 574 00:32:50,500 --> 00:32:52,600 I hope that's a fair assessment. It makes sense. 575 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,000 No, absolutely. And I think it kind of 576 00:32:55,008 --> 00:32:57,300 intertwines with the question I had for Mark, which is, you 577 00:32:57,300 --> 00:32:59,900 know, When is it good enough? When is it? 578 00:32:59,900 --> 00:33:02,500 When is your plans? Good enough to just go? 579 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,200 I think you've done a little bit of work and you've talked about 580 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:07,400 this. So would love to hear your 581 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:08,600 thoughts there. Yeah. 582 00:33:08,900 --> 00:33:12,200 All right. Well, there's two kind of two, 583 00:33:13,700 --> 00:33:15,800 two, two things. I don't think about, you know, 584 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,900 one is alright, if I'm planning a project for the first time. 585 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,700 All right, let's say that, you know, there's, there's two 586 00:33:22,700 --> 00:33:26,400 different kinds of projects. There's the truly worn off, you 587 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,000 know, we've never done. Done this before kind or 588 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,400 anything like it kind of a project and you know, for that 589 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,800 kind of a project, you know, you want to get your stakeholders. 590 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,500 The people were actually going to do the work or at least 591 00:33:41,500 --> 00:33:43,700 eight, your subject matter experts in the room. 592 00:33:43,700 --> 00:33:47,000 Making sure that you have all the relationships defined. 593 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,600 I think, what's good enough is we have a sense of what are the 594 00:33:51,608 --> 00:33:55,400 relationships of all the tasks that have to be accomplished? 595 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,400 What are the deliverables that each one of those? 596 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,700 Tasks, you know, we've identified any stage gates in 597 00:34:01,700 --> 00:34:06,500 the projects and we don't get too hung up on task estimation 598 00:34:06,500 --> 00:34:09,900 task time estimation. I mean, you know, I always tell 599 00:34:09,900 --> 00:34:14,400 people, look, that give me the, give me the green light time on 600 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,300 your task, Greenlight time means. 601 00:34:16,300 --> 00:34:17,900 Listen, I'm going to drive to work today. 602 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,400 I get all green lights all the way. 603 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,500 It's going to take X, nothing's going to go wrong, you know, 604 00:34:23,500 --> 00:34:25,500 it's going to take, you know, three weeks. 605 00:34:25,500 --> 00:34:27,500 I'm not going to, I'm not going to call the new a meeting. 606 00:34:27,699 --> 00:34:31,300 Or get sick or whatever thing might happen. 607 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,600 I'm going to devote 100% to this task. 608 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,900 I think it's going to take X and you know, that's good enough 609 00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:40,500 because we put buffers in the project, right? 610 00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:43,500 And say the project has a buffer, you don't have a buffer 611 00:34:44,100 --> 00:34:45,699 and I understand if something goes wrong. 612 00:34:45,699 --> 00:34:48,800 We're not going to beat you up because you made a bad estimate 613 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:50,500 on that. We got a buffer and that's what 614 00:34:50,500 --> 00:34:55,100 that buffer is full right to absorb all of that under an 615 00:34:55,100 --> 00:34:58,300 overestimation of task times. The big thing we Is what are the 616 00:34:58,308 --> 00:35:01,400 relationships of the tasks who's going to own them? 617 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:06,100 And that is good enough. Now for a project where we have 618 00:35:06,100 --> 00:35:10,700 a series of projects, like let's say that we're an engineer to 619 00:35:10,700 --> 00:35:14,000 order manufacturer and you know, are we make? 620 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:19,800 I don't know, cabinets, kitchen cabinets or, you know, kitchen 621 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,300 cabinets are pretty simple. All right there boxes, but they 622 00:35:23,300 --> 00:35:26,600 have all the boxes and drawers, and they have doors and, you 623 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,100 know, framing elements. And stuff like that, but then 624 00:35:29,100 --> 00:35:31,300 you get into, okay. What's the Finish? 625 00:35:31,300 --> 00:35:33,900 What kind of knobs we want? What's the door look like, you 626 00:35:33,900 --> 00:35:35,800 know, there's all kind of like these different plug-in 627 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,100 variables to know. By the way, we're going to go to 628 00:35:38,100 --> 00:35:41,100 install this place that we've never installed before, you know 629 00:35:41,100 --> 00:35:44,200 for those kinds of projects. I'm looking at the history and 630 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:45,900 say, all right. Well, how long does stuff take 631 00:35:45,900 --> 00:35:50,200 where are the management points? And I'm just going to map out a 632 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,500 kind of just a simple flow chart and say we're going to do this, 633 00:35:52,500 --> 00:35:55,400 this this and then we're going to stop and approve and there 634 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,600 are no this Justice or stop on the proof. 635 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,600 So we build more of a swiveling Sharp than a project plan for 636 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,300 those kinds of projects because we don't need to do that. 637 00:36:06,500 --> 00:36:09,100 The other thing I want to mention is something that Greg 638 00:36:09,100 --> 00:36:11,500 touched on was, you know, hey stuff's going wrong with the 639 00:36:11,500 --> 00:36:15,800 project and stuff in. I think a lot of people get 640 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,300 confused about the role of a risk register in the risk 641 00:36:20,300 --> 00:36:23,700 management process in the planning process, right, you 642 00:36:23,700 --> 00:36:26,400 know, because, you know, you you make your plan and you say, 643 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,600 okay, if everything goes Goes according to plan, we're going 644 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,000 to be here. But here's the uncertainty in 645 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,400 the project. I did a, I did a project for a 646 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:42,600 company that was designing. A chip for the PS Sony. 647 00:36:42,900 --> 00:36:44,000 PSP. PlayStations. 648 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,700 Right? And they were they were 649 00:36:45,700 --> 00:36:49,300 upgrading the USB is going to use B to C. 650 00:36:49,300 --> 00:36:52,200 So this is a couple of years, a couple of years ago and they're 651 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,600 like, man, we go to be when we go put that that that in the 652 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,600 ship then the chip melts and is hot. 653 00:36:57,700 --> 00:37:00,700 You know, so you know, what we had to do was build kind of like 654 00:37:00,700 --> 00:37:03,800 a little off ramp and say, okay. Well if we don't get this 655 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:05,900 problem solved, you know, then we're going to go do it this way 656 00:37:05,900 --> 00:37:08,900 and that happens. It's not part of the project 657 00:37:08,900 --> 00:37:12,300 plan necessarily. It's more of a contingency 658 00:37:12,300 --> 00:37:15,800 planning process. That happens outside of the 659 00:37:15,900 --> 00:37:18,200 normal. What are the what are the steps 660 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,400 that we have to accomplish and what are the resources that we 661 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,200 have to accomplish? So good? 662 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,800 Enough is just, what understanding. 663 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:27,100 What is the work who's going to be? 664 00:37:27,100 --> 00:37:28,800 Do it? What's the sequence? 665 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,300 And we don't get too hung up on how long does it take? 666 00:37:31,300 --> 00:37:35,500 And we don't beat people up in execution because you said it 667 00:37:35,508 --> 00:37:37,200 was going to take a week. And now it's taken three. 668 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,800 Well, you know, that's just that's just another form of the 669 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,500 other project plan, you know, the other problem certainty that 670 00:37:42,500 --> 00:37:45,600 I was talking about. So it really makes sense. 671 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,700 I'll I'm carrying that model with me all the time now and 672 00:37:48,700 --> 00:37:51,200 just like Mark has told us what good enough means. 673 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:55,200 I think this podcast has been good enough for our audience. 674 00:37:55,500 --> 00:37:58,300 See what I did there. So, You both. 675 00:37:59,700 --> 00:38:03,500 Thank you both for joining me and speaking about why projects 676 00:38:03,500 --> 00:38:05,700 fail. And also understanding that 677 00:38:05,900 --> 00:38:08,200 there are moments where you have to tell yourself. 678 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,200 It's good enough. Let's just go Greg. 679 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,700 I love that also about what you've been working on. 680 00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:15,200 So, looking forward to seeing what that's all about to. 681 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,300 So that will do it for Mark Greg. 682 00:38:17,300 --> 00:38:19,700 And I, and this installment of the everyday p.m. 683 00:38:19,700 --> 00:38:23,400 Podcast Mark for those that want to continue this conversation 684 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,200 with you. Where can they find you online? 685 00:38:25,900 --> 00:38:30,300 You can go to projects in. Less time.com and you'll find 686 00:38:30,300 --> 00:38:33,100 all of the books and white papers. 687 00:38:33,100 --> 00:38:36,100 There's no Gateway that you have to enter your e-mail. 688 00:38:36,100 --> 00:38:37,700 I just want to have a material out there. 689 00:38:37,900 --> 00:38:39,200 First. You got to go to Amazon to buy 690 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,200 my book projects visual project management, but you know, 691 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,100 there's that definitely. How do I support you? 692 00:38:45,500 --> 00:38:48,200 Absolutely. And Greg, what about if folks 693 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,700 want to follow, you know for me you can find me on LinkedIn. 694 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,000 Greg kristensen, you'll see the project Hub stuff and few other 695 00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,200 things hopefully to get And then you could also go to Project 696 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,000 help.com. And if you were to sign up, 697 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,600 that's because you're intending to try it out, get in there and 698 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,100 have some fun with it. And you'll reach me that way 699 00:39:07,100 --> 00:39:09,400 because I'm typically going to have visibility to that when 700 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,500 people engage and those are the two ways for me. 701 00:39:13,500 --> 00:39:17,000 Well, it's been a pleasure to speak with you both again, and I 702 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,200 hope to see you back on the podcast for another engaging 703 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,500 topic. I think we can go off on good 704 00:39:22,500 --> 00:39:25,100 enough in another complete series of this. 705 00:39:25,100 --> 00:39:28,600 So folks you can also find me on on LinkedIn if you want to 706 00:39:28,607 --> 00:39:31,300 connect as well as the everyday p.m..com. 707 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,100 Make sure to support the everyday p.m. 708 00:39:33,100 --> 00:39:35,200 Podcast. We're on all of your podcasting 709 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,900 platforms Spotify. Google play, Apple podcast. 710 00:39:37,900 --> 00:39:39,900 You name it? Give us a five star review. 711 00:39:39,900 --> 00:39:42,700 Leave us a great comment. Let us know what you think about 712 00:39:42,700 --> 00:39:45,200 why projects fail. You can also watch the video 713 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,800 version of this and see Mark scrambled for his phone and Greg 714 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,000 tell his dog to stop barking. And me tell my dog to stop 715 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,800 barking as well. You could watch us do all of 716 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,500 these shenanigans on my YouTube channel. 717 00:39:57,700 --> 00:40:00,300 Tom Ford, slash and campea while you're there. 718 00:40:00,300 --> 00:40:03,100 Subscribe to the channel. Click like on this video, leave 719 00:40:03,100 --> 00:40:06,500 us a comment and click that Bell for notifications of when new 720 00:40:06,500 --> 00:40:09,800 content goes up, so that will do it for all of us. 721 00:40:09,900 --> 00:40:12,800 Thanks so much for joining me and Mark and great. 722 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,900 And until next time. Take care.