Welcome to the Everyday PM Podcast, a podcast where we
discuss project management principles for your everyday
life. My name is Ann Campia, I'm the
host and founder of the Everyday PM, and I'm so excited to bring
the topic of mastering AI literacy as a project Manager to
you all today. Joining me is my very special
guest, Cornelius Fischer, who is the host of the Project
Management Podcast. He's also an author, speaker,
course creator, all of the things having to do with project
management. Cornelius, I'm so excited to
welcome you to the podcast. For those who have not met you
either through the Prep cast or your own podcast, please take a
brief moment to introduce yourself.
Yeah, thank you very much for having me.
I'm very excited to be here, Yes.
So where to begin? I guess at the beginning I, I
started my career as a software developer long time ago and
within just about 3 years I moved in to project management.
And then I, I LED projects in, in a paper mill, in a
supermarket chain, an Internet start up in a bank.
And then I decided, you know what, I'm going to go out on my
own. Started the project management
podcast around the same time there in about 2005.
Went out on my own in 2008 as AP and P trainer and I did the what
was back then very revolutionary.
I started the Project Management Prep cast which was pretty much
the first of its kind audio slash video PMP exam prep
training course that was available.
Been doing that ever since. Expanded on the products there
and about two years ago when I came across AR I, I started to
realize the potential that this new tool has for project
management. So I developed a course for it
and I got into teaching. I had a keynote presentation on
it, the webinars, seminars. So that's currently my passion
there, helping project managers understand that artificial
intelligence is more than where do I click in Chachi PT to make
it do something. All right.
And I guess that's that's also where we're getting into here
today. Well, I'm so excited to bring
this topic to our audience. I'm so excited that you've
chosen the everyday PM to share this with our audience.
Now I have a bit of a story to tell before we get into our our
discussion today. Cornelius, I've been a big fan
of yours for quite some time. You probably don't know this
because you're learning about it for the first time right now.
I have not only used your courses and promoted your
courses through the prep cast because I tremendously believe
that you put out wonderful information for project managers
who are looking to XLS well as pass the PMP exam.
So that's number one. Number 2, I actually had the
honor of helping your your staff update your prep cast.
I think it was back in 20/21/2020.
Yes, that's right. Yeah, you were on the team.
When the PMBOK updated, you had to update your courses as well.
And it really gave me tremendous insight into your thought
process and the level of detail and, and thoughtfulness and
attention that you give to, to the material you put out for
project managers. And I was just blown away by the
amount of, like I said, love, as well as the amount of attention
that you put into what you put out in the PM community.
So for all of that, I just wanted to kind of give you your
flowers today because I have been a tremendous fan.
And so when you reached out to be on the podcast, I was trying
to kind of downplay the level of excitement I had when I saw your
message come through the everyday PM.
But as things stand, you know, I, I'm just so honored that
you're here. I love the topic that you're
bringing to our audience today in terms of mastering AI
literacy. So I want to just get into our
first question around this idea of AI obviously is around us.
You're bringing this concept of mastery over tool mastery, AI
mastery or the understanding of it over tool mastery.
So I want to better understand, number one, what is your idea of
or how do you define mastery when it comes to AI?
And why do you argue that AI literacy over tool mastery is
the true competitive edge for today's PMS?
OK, before I get into that, thank you so much for saying all
those beautiful words. For those of you watching this
in the video, I have a lava lamp behind me and it's pretty bright
but my face is now blushing. Just as.
Red as the lava lamp back behind me there.
All right. So mastery and and literacy and
and and the tools. So tools change everyday, right?
And, and we know this because not a day goes by when you're
not looking into the news and, and a new function comes out or
something new about whatever Chachi PT, Google, Gemini or
some other AI tool out there is, is in the news and they're
presenting one of these new things to us.
So being able to use those tools and, and knowing where to click,
yes, that is important. And that mastery can only be
achieved over time as you are using those tools and you're
applying these tools. But for a project manager who
can evaluate these tools, understand where they fit
strategically, be able to apply them, employ them, and also
deploy them, that's where we as project managers should go.
So I talked about the, the seminars and my keynotes and I
speak very little about tools and using those tools.
And I kind of used that as a little bit of a showstopper.
So after about 20 minutes into my seminar, I kind of pause and
break the 4th wall to the audience.
And I go by the way, have you noticed that I've really not
mentioned any tools and, and how to use the tools and what to do
with the tools and, and, and all of that?
And, and there's a reason for this.
Imagine if I told you that in order to be a modern project
manager, you need to know how the Internet works, what a
browser is, how to network on LinkedIn, how to use a search
engine, how to use YouTube to do some basic research.
You would laugh at me, absolutely.
And, and you would be right to do that today.
This wasn't a a perfect statement in the early 2000s
because that's what was coming back then.
Now let's bring this to today and Fast forward five years.
Yes, today we think about those tools, but just like the tools
that I just mentioned, they will arrive here on your phone
relatively soon and you'll start to know these tools.
So if we Fast forward into the future five years, because you
are using those tools almost daily, whether it is
professionally or personally, you'll get to know the tools,
you know how they work and where you have to click with these
tools. The importance is you have to go
beyond tool usage. You have to understand how these
tool work, how they enhance your project workflows, how you can
use these tools and deploy those tools in order to make it
successfully. So future proof yourself by
going beyond just knowing, oh, I, I know how to use ChatGPT
instead. Think of it as to me, artificial
intelligence is a strategic tool that I am capable as a project
manager of deploying, you know, with a scalpel precision into
the success of my projects. That's where I'm going with
that. Did I answer both of your
questions? You did, you did.
And you have me thinking about I'm currently in the situation
where I'm trying to, we're doing something very interesting at my
organization where we are kind of right there at the precipice
of trying to figure out our AI strategy.
And one of the things that I thought was interesting about
what you said is people immediately jump to what are the
tools and how do we use them? Whereas if I'm hearing what
you're saying, it's the mastery of AI literacy itself should
take precedence before you even start to have a conversation
about tools. And I also find it very
interesting that there's probably hundreds of tools at
this point, right? We'll probably enter into some
space where there's there's just like you said, it's everywhere.
It's just already built into your cell phone.
Where folks still refer to it as ChatGPT.
And I get that because ChatGPT was the kind of the first thing
and. Yeah.
It's the first thing in the gate.
It's kind of the one that started the snowball of
everything else. So, you know, you're telling us
not to chase every new AI app. So how can project managers
decide whether a task is right for AI augmentation or better
left human? And then I want to add on to
this question if I can, Cornelius, and ask you to help
define for audience what the difference between AI and the
idea of AI automation is versus augmentation, because I think
the difference in those two terms is important here.
Yes. So let's let's start with
augmentation. I really like the fact that you
use the term augmentation because when we talk about
artificial intelligence, the one of the questions that pops into
my head or into many people's heads is, Oh my God, the
machines are coming from my job, right?
While that is true in some industries that are really
being, being hammered by this, I was just listening to voice over
artists and, and how they are beginning to struggle because,
you know, AI voices are becoming so good and and so inexpensive
in the area of project management.
We're not there and I think it's going to take quite a long time
until we're there. And I think we'll we'll get to
that at a later point as well anyway.
So augmentation to me is the importance.
I am not advocating that we need to replace the project manager.
I'm advocating that we need to end the project teams, either
that we need to give ourselves and our teams the AI tools that
take away the busy work, allowing us to be more creative
and more human right there. And one of the questions or, or
one of the the flips that I make is, is this, if somebody asks,
but what will I do once P once, once once AI is here and does
all my work, stop that kind of thinking and flip it around and
say, don't ask. What will I do?
Ask who will I be when AI is by my side and helping me?
And here my answer is clearly I am going to be the project
manager. I'm going to be the team member
that delivers the human value in all of this equation.
And let's also acknowledge these, these tools are fun,
right? They're, they're really cool.
I'm doing stuff today that five years ago I wouldn't have
thought possible. Remarkable.
To do that right, that all these things and, and when it comes to
the question of, you know, which of my, which of my tasks on the
project are ripe for AI augmentation, which tasks should
I actually put there? It's, it's really quite simple.
It's the repetitive data heavy tasks that you should consider.
And let me give you 3 indicators that you can look at in order
to, to determine what might be, might be your focus right there.
It it all starts with your risk tolerance.
You should focus primarily on low risk task things like status
summaries and and and things like that.
You don't want the AI to take over personnel decisions, for
example. That would probably not be the
right thing, right? Yeah, Personally, I use it to
write a well written podcast title for the episode.
And what I do is after the after the interview is done, I give
the transcript to ChatGPT and say, hey, give me a nine word
podcast episode title has to be engaging, it has to be SEO
friendly. You know, my my audience or
product managers, it has to be attractive to them as well.
It comes back with five to seven and that's where the human in
the loop. It also becomes important.
I am not just saying, oh, and once you get an output, just use
it. No, no, no, put a human in the
loop always. So in my case, I will take
those, those ideas, those suggestions, I treat them as a
brainstorming session. Sometimes there was a really
good title that I can just copy paste, but otherwise I'm like,
OK, I'll take this and that and that and combine it together.
And now I have my title. So risk tolerance is the first,
then data, availability of data and quality of data is next.
Because AI thrives on high quality data.
If if you can only give bad data to your AI and not a lot of good
data, the output is really not going to be there, right?
And the way I use it is in my PMP training and PMI ACP, I use
it to brainstorm lists. Like what I recently did is
started working on is a am I ready to take the PMP exam?
I want to create a checklist with 2020 points indicators.
And I usually start with about, you know, a few in my head
already. And I give that to the AI, and
then the AI is trained on a lot of data, including PMP tips and
suggestions that so many blogs have put out there.
And it will bring these together and probably give me a list of
35. And then I, as the human in the
loop, I need to sift through these, make sense of them, and
go, no, this doesn't make sense at all.
This is not part of what I'm trying to do.
I have to go into a different direction and then create my
list. And then last but not least,
repetitiveness of a task that really brings little insight to
you. Things like writing meeting
summaries, for example. Were you recording this here on
Zoom? Zoom has this new capability
that it will send you an e-mail with a meeting summary.
Amazing. Yeah, we had a meeting on
Tuesday and I was surprised how well it summarized all those
meetings. And then I also chuckled because
we were having some fun and we were being silly and we were
making up a task that could possibly be done.
And we all knew this is this is sarcasm.
Nothing, right? Of course, that task got turned
and assigned to one of the team members who was on the call.
So. Human in the loop is important,
right? And personally I I use the the
the repetitiveness when it comes to publishing my episodes.
I first published them on the website.
Then I have the HTML code. Then I go into YouTube.
YouTube doesn't take HTMI take straightforward text.
So it's like copy paste, reformat, copy paste, reformat.
I'm no longer doing that. I now have a prompt for Chachi
PT. Hey, here's my HTML code,
convert it into YouTube text only format, paste it in five
seconds later I can copy paste and I save a ton of money in
that way. So risk tolerance, data
availability and repetitive tasks that really are bring
little insight to the person who's doing it.
Those are the three key performance indicators that that
I would suggest. Let's see, I think you had, Did
I answer? Both.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and I think you, you
brought something up that I made me think about how even in my
space, you know, and those that are listening to can probably
relate. A lot of us are coming from this
mindset of our role that we sit in, if we're currently working
somewhere, it, our identity is kind of embedded in, in what we
do. And I appreciate that when you
started the conversation around augmentation that one of the
first things you called out was we're not trying to use AI to
take your job. And I think that's first and
foremost that a behavior or psychology that needs to be
embedded in, in employees before you even start to talk about,
OK, well, now let's think about risk tolerance and then then
that sort of thing and how we interact with it.
I really appreciate that you you said that because I think it's
important for people to hear that.
And, and the, the methodology you just displayed was so
simple, but so relatable, practical and usable.
And I think that all of those, all of those points are
important when you talk about AI because it can feel so daunting
to tell somebody, well, now you have to master AI literacy.
You know, project managers going to say, well, what then they're
going to start to ask all the questions that you had just
summarized. Is it does that because I'm not
good at my job? Is it because you want me to do
something else? And really, really good points
there, Cornelius, and, and a good kind of reassurance to the
audience that that's the way project management leaders like
yourself are looking at it and trying to apply these types of
simple steps in order to assess. Let me let me follow up with a
couple of thoughts here. First of all, identity.
You said identity and I think that is where the Oh my God,
what will I do? What is left for me once, once
AI has taken over the world, right, because we often identify
so much with the individual tasks that we do, right?
Sitting at the computer, hacking at the keyboard, that's part of
my job, right? And, and, and we're, we're not
looking at the value that we provide.
That's why I say don't ask what will I do, but who will I be
once AI is here, right. So that that's really the thing
and when it comes to the change that is coming, I am hopeful
frankly that with project managers and project teams in
particular, that's not such a big issue because we are the
bringers of change. Often times we are asked to
bring new technologies and and new processes to our
organizations. That's our life.
So I hope that now that AI is coming to help us and, and
change the way that we do work that we are not going to go not
going to do this right, so that we are not going to be, you
know, the people opposing that change.
Absolutely, Absolutely. That's one thing that are two
things we have to keep in mind as well.
Go ahead. Yes, yes, no, and I again, I,
I'm very appreciative that yourself being one of the four,
you know, one of the PM leaders in our community, PMI, them
coming out and saying, you know, we're, we're going to try to
figure out this out as we create a partnership with AI tools
rather than, you know, seeing it as a, a job taker.
So again, I think it's just a really helpful message for the
community to hear. So I wanted to move on to the
growth mantra you put out there, because I think this is another
practical concept for folks that are listening whether project
managers are not to be able to apply.
So can you tell us a little bit more about Adopt, adapt and
Adept? Yes, I can with an apology
because even though I came up with this mnemonic, I when I
sent that to you, I gave it to you in the wrong order.
Well. It's it's actually adapt, adopt,
adapt. This comes from my keynote
presentation. So imagine this and you've been
listening to me talk about AI and the promise of AI and, and
anything it can do and the great future.
The, you know, is so bright, you got to wear shades kind of
thing. And, and you're kind of sitting
there listening to me and you go, all right, so how do I get
into this? Right?
And I I was using this mnemonic adopt, adopt, adapt, adapt.
Not even I'm. Sorry.
Adopt adapt in order to help people get something into their
head that is easy to remember. So adapt.
Adapt is a change in your mindset.
You literally have to tell yourself, OK, yeah, this is
coming, right? This is something that is
changing and I have to move with the times and move forward.
Adopt is then the next step where you look at all the things
that you do on your project and you maybe pick a first task from
within your project management arsenal and you say, OK,
according to what Cornelius said, you know, data
availability, risk tolerance, repetitiveness.
This might be a task where I can adopt artificial intelligence.
And then adept is lifelong learning, not just thinking, oh,
now I know where to click in Cha Chi PT, but understanding the
strategic implications that AI has.
And, and this is the point where I'm starting to steer people
towards going into the AI literacy direction.
So building a skill set that is broader than just I know how Cha
Chi PT works and, and really going in depth and breadth.
And the reason is twofold. Most project managers think of
artificial intelligence as something that is coming into
our projects and we will be using AI as a tool managing our
projects. Don't forget the marketing
department also wants AI and who is going to be the person who
will be asked to lead a project to bring AI to the marketing
department? You are you are the project
manager, right? So you need to really understand
what it takes to bring these tools into your organization.
What are the tools out there and how do we best use them
strategically in a different department?
How do we handle the resistance, the fear of the marketing people
who suddenly go, wait a minute, what will be left for me when
and, and now we're getting back into that conversation, right?
Because that is a question that you will hear all the time.
What's left for me once you bring AI here, right?
So all of these, these considerations, that's where I
feel project managers need to go and adapt and adopt.
That's something that you know, really nobody can help you with.
You have to adapt, you have to change your mindset, you have to
adopt, you have to really be open to, to try this out.
But the adept, this is where you and I come in as as educators,
as trainers helping project manage, the project management
community out there to see the direction where they need to go
and learn artificial intelligence on a broader basis
than just here's where I need to click.
Yeah, absolutely. And AI is moving so quickly.
It feels like everyday I either get on my phone or I'm, you
know, on a browser and there's another tool available.
And I think having project managers have the knowledge and
use that growth mantra to to kind of ground yourself and the
steps of what needs to happen. I think it's a very simple and
practical way of looking at it from a PM perspective and how
you can be involved in that particular assessment now with
AI moving so rapidly. Cornelius I'm curious.
I'm saying in the future. And when I say future, it's
probably going to be in the future like next year, not as
opposed to looking five years out is what my question says
because I can't even imagine what AI is going to be in five
years from now. But you know, kind of forward
thinking, which soft skill with AI automation can make PMS more
valuable, do you think and why? Yeah.
I think this takes me back to who will I be when AI is here.
I will be the person who brings the human factor to the table.
So one example is stakeholder communication with empathy.
I disagree a little bit with what you have said there, but
let me explain. There are people in the AI
industry today who say that in just a few years, few short
years, AI will be capable to really, you know, be very human
like. Frankly, I think they are
underestimating what we are and what we do as humans.
Think of your own interactions with your stakeholders.
You smile, you nod, handshake. You go out to lunch and and and
you're cracking a joke at the right moment.
Or you show grief when somebody tells you that their uncle has
to go through chemotherapy. The last one AI can do as well,
right? AI can indeed.
When you talk to a chachi PT and you say you know my uncle has,
then there will immediately come back a response.
Very sorry to hear that. Always a difficult situation,
right? But.
That is calculation. That is algorithm.
As far as you know, AI has algorithms and and how exactly
that works is, is frankly beyond me.
That is not rapport with your stakeholders.
So while an AI can mimic today some things that we do naturally
and it will get better and better at mimicking them.
Real humanity, real empathy, it's going to take a lot longer
than these few short years that some are predicting because
yeah, to me, complex projects, and I think this is what we can
boil it down to, complex projects, they succeed based on
the rapport that we have with our stakeholders and not based
on calculated responses that I'm coming up with.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It, it reminds me of one of the
core lessons I teach some of my students in a organizational
leadership course is there's still this concept of gut
instinct or, you know, yeah, gut instinct, really.
I don't. I agree with you.
I don't know that. AI.
Yeah, I don't know that AI, he's ever going to have a gut
instinct. You could get it to train to get
pretty close. But yeah, I completely agree
with you in that it's one of the hardest to me as APM.
It's one of the hardest skill sets to try to convey to folks
who aren't project managers in that we have these soft skills,
this humanity that we really do utilize on a day-to-day basis,
the relationship building and that sort of thing that comes
with just being a human being. That really plays into a role
and it's become more and more significant today more than ever
because you're working with diverse teams, you're working
with global partners, you're working remotely, you're working
in hybrid situations. The more of that humanity we can
bring into being a project manager, I don't know that AI
will ever be able to. I'm a bit of a sci-fi nerd,
right? So something like AC3PO from
Star Wars or Mr. Data from Enterprise, Star Trek.
And I think eventually, yes, we'll get there, but probably
not in my lifetime. Yeah, somebody who is born
today, Why not? That might happen, but it's
going to take a lot of hard work in order to get there.
That's that's kind of where we're going.
So that's also why I'm saying, you know, project managers, we
are because there is so much rapport needed, so much
interpersonal trust that needs to be built in projects.
And we are at least for the time being, pretty safe in our choice
of, of of the work that we do. Yeah.
Absolutely, absolutely. So I'm going to ask you probably
the hardest question of this conversation, Cornelius, because
there's been so much wisdom that you've shared with our audience
today and so many great practical takeaways as well.
But if you're to synthesize our conversation around mastering AI
literacy for project managers, if there's one action item that
you want project managers or the non project managers to take
away from our conversation today, which one would you
choose? Yeah.
So I want to send you off towards AI literacy.
And really the first step into that direction is data literacy.
And so that's my recommendation, become data literate.
And data literacy is being able to read data, being able to
understand data, being able to make sense from data, being able
to and understand the quality of data, being able to use data to
make decisions, being able to visualize data.
And even though I'm saying you know the, the data, that's the
thing that AI will crunch through and, and in within
seconds be able to, to make sense and, and bring results
back. But again, human in the loop, if
you are not data literate, you won't notice that there is a
problem. And here is an easy way that you
can start applying data literacy today, tomorrow.
Ask yourself this, ask your team this on my project, on our
project, which single data set should we use in order to make
project decisions? What is the data set that we use
as the basis to make project decisions?
And most importantly, why is that data set trustworthy?
A potential answer could be it is the Sprint burned down chart
and it is trustworthy because we put in the data every day.
We have somebody in the back office who compares the input to
to the actual deliverables. We regularly look at it during
our daily stand up and we look at outliers and make sure that
this is correct and less regularly, but still we do it.
We compare it to our definition of done and make sure that is
this truly done, this particular item that has been labeled as
done and that's what makes it trustworthy.
If you hesitated or if the answer is, you know, it's, it's
the burn down chart still, but you realize, man, we don't
actually check that it is accurate.
We don't have all these checks and balances there.
You have just applied data literacy in action because you
realized I'm using the that, that that burn down chart and it
probably has faulty data in it. I have to immediately take steps
in order to improve the data quality so that the decisions I
make are based on sound information and not just
whatever gets put into the system on a daily basis.
So this has to be audited. So my recommendation is you want
to go towards data literacy, about 17 core skills and
competencies. And data literacy is one of
these AI literacy core competencies that you should
really start with. So go into that direction.
Right. You heard it from Cornelius.
If there's one easy step you could take just after listening
to this conversation, I think, yeah, absolutely.
And that completely makes sense. Now I know our time's up now I'm
more intrigued to hear more about what you were just talking
about. South Cornelius, we're going to
have to have you back on for another episode.
But thank you so much for for this discussion today on
Mastering AI Literacy for project managers.
It's been very enlightening and especially timely for us in this
community to, to learn more about how you're thinking about
it and how you would, you know, take action to, to embed
yourself as a project manager in this space.
So, Cornelius, thank you again for your time.
If folks want to continue the conversation with you, where can
they follow you online? Yeah.
So, well, first of all, thank you so much for having me.
Much appreciated. And while AI is my passion and I
really love talking about it, what really pays the bills is
obviously my P&P training. And if any of our audience is
currently preparing for thinking about the PMP exam, then my PMP
exam simulator ACP and CAPM as well is at
pm-exam-simulator.com, not PMP Exam simulator,
pm-exam-simulator.com. Or if you simply want to connect
with me, then look for my name, Cornelius Fischner on LinkedIn.
I'm currently the only one with that name on LinkedIn.
And if there are suddenly more than one, I'm the good looking
one. I'm the good looking. 1
Absolutely. Thank you again for having me.
Of course, of course, and thank you for coming on the podcast
with this awesome topic. For folks that want to follow
me, you can find me online at Ancampia, especially on
LinkedIn, connect with me, please.
Happy to continue the conversation there as well as
connecting with the correct Cornelius if there is like a
three or four of them. But we will make sure that we
drop all the links to all of your material because like I
said when we started this conversation, Cornelius, I'm a
huge fan of what you put out there for the community.
And I can't help but promote it to everybody that I talked to
who's preparing for the exam. So thank you for that too.
And for those listening in again, thanks for joining us in
this conversation. Latest installment of the
Everyday PM Podcast. Make sure to like, subscribe,
follow the podcast, leave us a comment on what you thought
about this episode today. And until next time, take care.