1 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,640 Welcome to the Everyday PM Podcast, a podcast where we 2 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,600 discuss project management principles for your everyday 3 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:18,880 life. My name is Ann Campia, I'm the 4 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,880 host and founder of the Everyday PM, and I'm so excited to bring 5 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:27,160 the topic of mastering AI literacy as a project Manager to 6 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,640 you all today. Joining me is my very special 7 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:35,400 guest, Cornelius Fischer, who is the host of the Project 8 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,720 Management Podcast. He's also an author, speaker, 9 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,680 course creator, all of the things having to do with project 10 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:44,680 management. Cornelius, I'm so excited to 11 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,600 welcome you to the podcast. For those who have not met you 12 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,400 either through the Prep cast or your own podcast, please take a 13 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:52,880 brief moment to introduce yourself. 14 00:00:53,480 --> 00:00:55,560 Yeah, thank you very much for having me. 15 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,400 I'm very excited to be here, Yes. 16 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,480 So where to begin? I guess at the beginning I, I 17 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:07,120 started my career as a software developer long time ago and 18 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:13,080 within just about 3 years I moved in to project management. 19 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:18,280 And then I, I LED projects in, in a paper mill, in a 20 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,560 supermarket chain, an Internet start up in a bank. 21 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:27,680 And then I decided, you know what, I'm going to go out on my 22 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:29,880 own. Started the project management 23 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,560 podcast around the same time there in about 2005. 24 00:01:33,960 --> 00:01:39,880 Went out on my own in 2008 as AP and P trainer and I did the what 25 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,320 was back then very revolutionary. 26 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,320 I started the Project Management Prep cast which was pretty much 27 00:01:47,320 --> 00:01:51,560 the first of its kind audio slash video PMP exam prep 28 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,840 training course that was available. 29 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,280 Been doing that ever since. Expanded on the products there 30 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:07,520 and about two years ago when I came across AR I, I started to 31 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:13,200 realize the potential that this new tool has for project 32 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,400 management. So I developed a course for it 33 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,720 and I got into teaching. I had a keynote presentation on 34 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:25,440 it, the webinars, seminars. So that's currently my passion 35 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,640 there, helping project managers understand that artificial 36 00:02:29,640 --> 00:02:35,880 intelligence is more than where do I click in Chachi PT to make 37 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:37,640 it do something. All right. 38 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:39,840 And I guess that's that's also where we're getting into here 39 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:41,880 today. Well, I'm so excited to bring 40 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,080 this topic to our audience. I'm so excited that you've 41 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,400 chosen the everyday PM to share this with our audience. 42 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:52,800 Now I have a bit of a story to tell before we get into our our 43 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,800 discussion today. Cornelius, I've been a big fan 44 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,080 of yours for quite some time. You probably don't know this 45 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,320 because you're learning about it for the first time right now. 46 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:05,000 I have not only used your courses and promoted your 47 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,560 courses through the prep cast because I tremendously believe 48 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,120 that you put out wonderful information for project managers 49 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:16,640 who are looking to XLS well as pass the PMP exam. 50 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,200 So that's number one. Number 2, I actually had the 51 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:25,200 honor of helping your your staff update your prep cast. 52 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,520 I think it was back in 20/21/2020. 53 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:29,840 Yes, that's right. Yeah, you were on the team. 54 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:34,160 When the PMBOK updated, you had to update your courses as well. 55 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,280 And it really gave me tremendous insight into your thought 56 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,160 process and the level of detail and, and thoughtfulness and 57 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,800 attention that you give to, to the material you put out for 58 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,160 project managers. And I was just blown away by the 59 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:53,760 amount of, like I said, love, as well as the amount of attention 60 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,440 that you put into what you put out in the PM community. 61 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,120 So for all of that, I just wanted to kind of give you your 62 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,240 flowers today because I have been a tremendous fan. 63 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,480 And so when you reached out to be on the podcast, I was trying 64 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:12,400 to kind of downplay the level of excitement I had when I saw your 65 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,080 message come through the everyday PM. 66 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:19,000 But as things stand, you know, I, I'm just so honored that 67 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:20,760 you're here. I love the topic that you're 68 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,640 bringing to our audience today in terms of mastering AI 69 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,720 literacy. So I want to just get into our 70 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:32,360 first question around this idea of AI obviously is around us. 71 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:37,320 You're bringing this concept of mastery over tool mastery, AI 72 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,680 mastery or the understanding of it over tool mastery. 73 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:45,320 So I want to better understand, number one, what is your idea of 74 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,280 or how do you define mastery when it comes to AI? 75 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,920 And why do you argue that AI literacy over tool mastery is 76 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,680 the true competitive edge for today's PMS? 77 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:02,000 OK, before I get into that, thank you so much for saying all 78 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,600 those beautiful words. For those of you watching this 79 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,160 in the video, I have a lava lamp behind me and it's pretty bright 80 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,840 but my face is now blushing. Just as. 81 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,520 Red as the lava lamp back behind me there. 82 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:21,240 All right. So mastery and and literacy and 83 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:26,800 and and the tools. So tools change everyday, right? 84 00:05:26,840 --> 00:05:30,560 And, and we know this because not a day goes by when you're 85 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:35,480 not looking into the news and, and a new function comes out or 86 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,560 something new about whatever Chachi PT, Google, Gemini or 87 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:47,600 some other AI tool out there is, is in the news and they're 88 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,040 presenting one of these new things to us. 89 00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:55,880 So being able to use those tools and, and knowing where to click, 90 00:05:56,080 --> 00:06:01,360 yes, that is important. And that mastery can only be 91 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,960 achieved over time as you are using those tools and you're 92 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,920 applying these tools. But for a project manager who 93 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:16,240 can evaluate these tools, understand where they fit 94 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:22,280 strategically, be able to apply them, employ them, and also 95 00:06:22,280 --> 00:06:27,640 deploy them, that's where we as project managers should go. 96 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,720 So I talked about the, the seminars and my keynotes and I 97 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:38,440 speak very little about tools and using those tools. 98 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,360 And I kind of used that as a little bit of a showstopper. 99 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:46,640 So after about 20 minutes into my seminar, I kind of pause and 100 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:49,560 break the 4th wall to the audience. 101 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:54,200 And I go by the way, have you noticed that I've really not 102 00:06:54,200 --> 00:07:00,120 mentioned any tools and, and how to use the tools and what to do 103 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,440 with the tools and, and, and all of that? 104 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,080 And, and there's a reason for this. 105 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:12,080 Imagine if I told you that in order to be a modern project 106 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:16,280 manager, you need to know how the Internet works, what a 107 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:22,480 browser is, how to network on LinkedIn, how to use a search 108 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:27,160 engine, how to use YouTube to do some basic research. 109 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,520 You would laugh at me, absolutely. 110 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:32,760 And, and you would be right to do that today. 111 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,400 This wasn't a a perfect statement in the early 2000s 112 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,080 because that's what was coming back then. 113 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:44,200 Now let's bring this to today and Fast forward five years. 114 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,280 Yes, today we think about those tools, but just like the tools 115 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:52,200 that I just mentioned, they will arrive here on your phone 116 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:57,080 relatively soon and you'll start to know these tools. 117 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:04,640 So if we Fast forward into the future five years, because you 118 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,760 are using those tools almost daily, whether it is 119 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:12,200 professionally or personally, you'll get to know the tools, 120 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:18,080 you know how they work and where you have to click with these 121 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:22,120 tools. The importance is you have to go 122 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,880 beyond tool usage. You have to understand how these 123 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:34,320 tool work, how they enhance your project workflows, how you can 124 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:40,240 use these tools and deploy those tools in order to make it 125 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,600 successfully. So future proof yourself by 126 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:48,800 going beyond just knowing, oh, I, I know how to use ChatGPT 127 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:54,160 instead. Think of it as to me, artificial 128 00:08:54,160 --> 00:09:00,440 intelligence is a strategic tool that I am capable as a project 129 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:08,400 manager of deploying, you know, with a scalpel precision into 130 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,680 the success of my projects. That's where I'm going with 131 00:09:11,680 --> 00:09:13,200 that. Did I answer both of your 132 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,600 questions? You did, you did. 133 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,840 And you have me thinking about I'm currently in the situation 134 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,720 where I'm trying to, we're doing something very interesting at my 135 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,760 organization where we are kind of right there at the precipice 136 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:27,960 of trying to figure out our AI strategy. 137 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,360 And one of the things that I thought was interesting about 138 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,240 what you said is people immediately jump to what are the 139 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:38,360 tools and how do we use them? Whereas if I'm hearing what 140 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:42,960 you're saying, it's the mastery of AI literacy itself should 141 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,800 take precedence before you even start to have a conversation 142 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,280 about tools. And I also find it very 143 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:52,400 interesting that there's probably hundreds of tools at 144 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,160 this point, right? We'll probably enter into some 145 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,080 space where there's there's just like you said, it's everywhere. 146 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,160 It's just already built into your cell phone. 147 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:05,120 Where folks still refer to it as ChatGPT. 148 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,000 And I get that because ChatGPT was the kind of the first thing 149 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:09,040 and. Yeah. 150 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:11,080 It's the first thing in the gate. 151 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,440 It's kind of the one that started the snowball of 152 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:15,760 everything else. So, you know, you're telling us 153 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:20,560 not to chase every new AI app. So how can project managers 154 00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:24,960 decide whether a task is right for AI augmentation or better 155 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,800 left human? And then I want to add on to 156 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,280 this question if I can, Cornelius, and ask you to help 157 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:35,560 define for audience what the difference between AI and the 158 00:10:35,560 --> 00:10:39,480 idea of AI automation is versus augmentation, because I think 159 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,040 the difference in those two terms is important here. 160 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,440 Yes. So let's let's start with 161 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,400 augmentation. I really like the fact that you 162 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:53,920 use the term augmentation because when we talk about 163 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,680 artificial intelligence, the one of the questions that pops into 164 00:10:57,680 --> 00:11:01,320 my head or into many people's heads is, Oh my God, the 165 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,720 machines are coming from my job, right? 166 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:09,600 While that is true in some industries that are really 167 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:15,080 being, being hammered by this, I was just listening to voice over 168 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:19,840 artists and, and how they are beginning to struggle because, 169 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:24,040 you know, AI voices are becoming so good and and so inexpensive 170 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,120 in the area of project management. 171 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,320 We're not there and I think it's going to take quite a long time 172 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,360 until we're there. And I think we'll we'll get to 173 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,680 that at a later point as well anyway. 174 00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:39,720 So augmentation to me is the importance. 175 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:46,680 I am not advocating that we need to replace the project manager. 176 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,440 I'm advocating that we need to end the project teams, either 177 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:59,040 that we need to give ourselves and our teams the AI tools that 178 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:04,440 take away the busy work, allowing us to be more creative 179 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:11,200 and more human right there. And one of the questions or, or 180 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:16,400 one of the the flips that I make is, is this, if somebody asks, 181 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:22,760 but what will I do once P once, once once AI is here and does 182 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:27,120 all my work, stop that kind of thinking and flip it around and 183 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:28,960 say, don't ask. What will I do? 184 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:36,560 Ask who will I be when AI is by my side and helping me? 185 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:41,640 And here my answer is clearly I am going to be the project 186 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:43,720 manager. I'm going to be the team member 187 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:49,320 that delivers the human value in all of this equation. 188 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,880 And let's also acknowledge these, these tools are fun, 189 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:56,680 right? They're, they're really cool. 190 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,960 I'm doing stuff today that five years ago I wouldn't have 191 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:02,840 thought possible. Remarkable. 192 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:07,760 To do that right, that all these things and, and when it comes to 193 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:13,520 the question of, you know, which of my, which of my tasks on the 194 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:18,360 project are ripe for AI augmentation, which tasks should 195 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,000 I actually put there? It's, it's really quite simple. 196 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:26,840 It's the repetitive data heavy tasks that you should consider. 197 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:33,080 And let me give you 3 indicators that you can look at in order 198 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:37,480 to, to determine what might be, might be your focus right there. 199 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,000 It it all starts with your risk tolerance. 200 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:51,720 You should focus primarily on low risk task things like status 201 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:53,800 summaries and and and things like that. 202 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:58,960 You don't want the AI to take over personnel decisions, for 203 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,760 example. That would probably not be the 204 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:07,040 right thing, right? Yeah, Personally, I use it to 205 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:11,120 write a well written podcast title for the episode. 206 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,760 And what I do is after the after the interview is done, I give 207 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:20,720 the transcript to ChatGPT and say, hey, give me a nine word 208 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:25,040 podcast episode title has to be engaging, it has to be SEO 209 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,520 friendly. You know, my my audience or 210 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,280 product managers, it has to be attractive to them as well. 211 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,440 It comes back with five to seven and that's where the human in 212 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,800 the loop. It also becomes important. 213 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:43,320 I am not just saying, oh, and once you get an output, just use 214 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,320 it. No, no, no, put a human in the 215 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,520 loop always. So in my case, I will take 216 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,680 those, those ideas, those suggestions, I treat them as a 217 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,680 brainstorming session. Sometimes there was a really 218 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,880 good title that I can just copy paste, but otherwise I'm like, 219 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,720 OK, I'll take this and that and that and combine it together. 220 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,360 And now I have my title. So risk tolerance is the first, 221 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:12,720 then data, availability of data and quality of data is next. 222 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:19,320 Because AI thrives on high quality data. 223 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:27,240 If if you can only give bad data to your AI and not a lot of good 224 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:32,000 data, the output is really not going to be there, right? 225 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:38,760 And the way I use it is in my PMP training and PMI ACP, I use 226 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:43,280 it to brainstorm lists. Like what I recently did is 227 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:48,120 started working on is a am I ready to take the PMP exam? 228 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:52,960 I want to create a checklist with 2020 points indicators. 229 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,080 And I usually start with about, you know, a few in my head 230 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:01,080 already. And I give that to the AI, and 231 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:08,880 then the AI is trained on a lot of data, including PMP tips and 232 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,920 suggestions that so many blogs have put out there. 233 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,680 And it will bring these together and probably give me a list of 234 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,800 35. And then I, as the human in the 235 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,560 loop, I need to sift through these, make sense of them, and 236 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,000 go, no, this doesn't make sense at all. 237 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,000 This is not part of what I'm trying to do. 238 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:30,600 I have to go into a different direction and then create my 239 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,280 list. And then last but not least, 240 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:40,480 repetitiveness of a task that really brings little insight to 241 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,560 you. Things like writing meeting 242 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:49,040 summaries, for example. Were you recording this here on 243 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,400 Zoom? Zoom has this new capability 244 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,960 that it will send you an e-mail with a meeting summary. 245 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,880 Amazing. Yeah, we had a meeting on 246 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:04,280 Tuesday and I was surprised how well it summarized all those 247 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,440 meetings. And then I also chuckled because 248 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,880 we were having some fun and we were being silly and we were 249 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,520 making up a task that could possibly be done. 250 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,480 And we all knew this is this is sarcasm. 251 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,200 Nothing, right? Of course, that task got turned 252 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,200 and assigned to one of the team members who was on the call. 253 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,440 So. Human in the loop is important, 254 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:30,280 right? And personally I I use the the 255 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,680 the repetitiveness when it comes to publishing my episodes. 256 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:36,720 I first published them on the website. 257 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,320 Then I have the HTML code. Then I go into YouTube. 258 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,880 YouTube doesn't take HTMI take straightforward text. 259 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:48,360 So it's like copy paste, reformat, copy paste, reformat. 260 00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:51,280 I'm no longer doing that. I now have a prompt for Chachi 261 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,880 PT. Hey, here's my HTML code, 262 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:59,800 convert it into YouTube text only format, paste it in five 263 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,800 seconds later I can copy paste and I save a ton of money in 264 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,080 that way. So risk tolerance, data 265 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:13,000 availability and repetitive tasks that really are bring 266 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,680 little insight to the person who's doing it. 267 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,040 Those are the three key performance indicators that that 268 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:24,200 I would suggest. Let's see, I think you had, Did 269 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:24,960 I answer? Both. 270 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,520 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and I think you, you 271 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:32,760 brought something up that I made me think about how even in my 272 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,160 space, you know, and those that are listening to can probably 273 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,360 relate. A lot of us are coming from this 274 00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:44,480 mindset of our role that we sit in, if we're currently working 275 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:49,080 somewhere, it, our identity is kind of embedded in, in what we 276 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,000 do. And I appreciate that when you 277 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:57,160 started the conversation around augmentation that one of the 278 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,880 first things you called out was we're not trying to use AI to 279 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,080 take your job. And I think that's first and 280 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:07,240 foremost that a behavior or psychology that needs to be 281 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,800 embedded in, in employees before you even start to talk about, 282 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,760 OK, well, now let's think about risk tolerance and then then 283 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,320 that sort of thing and how we interact with it. 284 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,080 I really appreciate that you you said that because I think it's 285 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:21,800 important for people to hear that. 286 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,120 And, and the, the methodology you just displayed was so 287 00:19:26,120 --> 00:19:30,120 simple, but so relatable, practical and usable. 288 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,240 And I think that all of those, all of those points are 289 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,480 important when you talk about AI because it can feel so daunting 290 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,640 to tell somebody, well, now you have to master AI literacy. 291 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,720 You know, project managers going to say, well, what then they're 292 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:45,840 going to start to ask all the questions that you had just 293 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,600 summarized. Is it does that because I'm not 294 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,680 good at my job? Is it because you want me to do 295 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,280 something else? And really, really good points 296 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,160 there, Cornelius, and, and a good kind of reassurance to the 297 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,880 audience that that's the way project management leaders like 298 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,120 yourself are looking at it and trying to apply these types of 299 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,320 simple steps in order to assess. Let me let me follow up with a 300 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,800 couple of thoughts here. First of all, identity. 301 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,160 You said identity and I think that is where the Oh my God, 302 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:16,240 what will I do? What is left for me once, once 303 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:21,080 AI has taken over the world, right, because we often identify 304 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,480 so much with the individual tasks that we do, right? 305 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,200 Sitting at the computer, hacking at the keyboard, that's part of 306 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,400 my job, right? And, and, and we're, we're not 307 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,960 looking at the value that we provide. 308 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,280 That's why I say don't ask what will I do, but who will I be 309 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:44,480 once AI is here, right. So that that's really the thing 310 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:51,000 and when it comes to the change that is coming, I am hopeful 311 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:55,480 frankly that with project managers and project teams in 312 00:20:55,480 --> 00:21:00,200 particular, that's not such a big issue because we are the 313 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,720 bringers of change. Often times we are asked to 314 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:08,880 bring new technologies and and new processes to our 315 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,120 organizations. That's our life. 316 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:16,680 So I hope that now that AI is coming to help us and, and 317 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,600 change the way that we do work that we are not going to go not 318 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:25,440 going to do this right, so that we are not going to be, you 319 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:29,360 know, the people opposing that change. 320 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,960 Absolutely, Absolutely. That's one thing that are two 321 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:34,200 things we have to keep in mind as well. 322 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,280 Go ahead. Yes, yes, no, and I again, I, 323 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,520 I'm very appreciative that yourself being one of the four, 324 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,520 you know, one of the PM leaders in our community, PMI, them 325 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,240 coming out and saying, you know, we're, we're going to try to 326 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:50,960 figure out this out as we create a partnership with AI tools 327 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,280 rather than, you know, seeing it as a, a job taker. 328 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,160 So again, I think it's just a really helpful message for the 329 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,080 community to hear. So I wanted to move on to the 330 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,040 growth mantra you put out there, because I think this is another 331 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,520 practical concept for folks that are listening whether project 332 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,200 managers are not to be able to apply. 333 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,880 So can you tell us a little bit more about Adopt, adapt and 334 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,840 Adept? Yes, I can with an apology 335 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,200 because even though I came up with this mnemonic, I when I 336 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,560 sent that to you, I gave it to you in the wrong order. 337 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,360 Well. It's it's actually adapt, adopt, 338 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,480 adapt. This comes from my keynote 339 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,360 presentation. So imagine this and you've been 340 00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:40,680 listening to me talk about AI and the promise of AI and, and 341 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,720 anything it can do and the great future. 342 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,360 The, you know, is so bright, you got to wear shades kind of 343 00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:48,560 thing. And, and you're kind of sitting 344 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:52,600 there listening to me and you go, all right, so how do I get 345 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:53,640 into this? Right? 346 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:59,680 And I I was using this mnemonic adopt, adopt, adapt, adapt. 347 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,320 Not even I'm. Sorry. 348 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:10,680 Adopt adapt in order to help people get something into their 349 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,520 head that is easy to remember. So adapt. 350 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,880 Adapt is a change in your mindset. 351 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:21,800 You literally have to tell yourself, OK, yeah, this is 352 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,040 coming, right? This is something that is 353 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:30,640 changing and I have to move with the times and move forward. 354 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:36,640 Adopt is then the next step where you look at all the things 355 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:43,200 that you do on your project and you maybe pick a first task from 356 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,400 within your project management arsenal and you say, OK, 357 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,600 according to what Cornelius said, you know, data 358 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,160 availability, risk tolerance, repetitiveness. 359 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:59,720 This might be a task where I can adopt artificial intelligence. 360 00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:05,840 And then adept is lifelong learning, not just thinking, oh, 361 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:12,680 now I know where to click in Cha Chi PT, but understanding the 362 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,760 strategic implications that AI has. 363 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,640 And, and this is the point where I'm starting to steer people 364 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:26,160 towards going into the AI literacy direction. 365 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:30,160 So building a skill set that is broader than just I know how Cha 366 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:35,920 Chi PT works and, and really going in depth and breadth. 367 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:41,720 And the reason is twofold. Most project managers think of 368 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,480 artificial intelligence as something that is coming into 369 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:52,240 our projects and we will be using AI as a tool managing our 370 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,480 projects. Don't forget the marketing 371 00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:00,440 department also wants AI and who is going to be the person who 372 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,920 will be asked to lead a project to bring AI to the marketing 373 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,000 department? You are you are the project 374 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,320 manager, right? So you need to really understand 375 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:18,200 what it takes to bring these tools into your organization. 376 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:24,000 What are the tools out there and how do we best use them 377 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,560 strategically in a different department? 378 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:32,840 How do we handle the resistance, the fear of the marketing people 379 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:38,080 who suddenly go, wait a minute, what will be left for me when 380 00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:40,680 and, and now we're getting back into that conversation, right? 381 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,920 Because that is a question that you will hear all the time. 382 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,400 What's left for me once you bring AI here, right? 383 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:53,680 So all of these, these considerations, that's where I 384 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:58,840 feel project managers need to go and adapt and adopt. 385 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,640 That's something that you know, really nobody can help you with. 386 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,920 You have to adapt, you have to change your mindset, you have to 387 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,640 adopt, you have to really be open to, to try this out. 388 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,720 But the adept, this is where you and I come in as as educators, 389 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,440 as trainers helping project manage, the project management 390 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,320 community out there to see the direction where they need to go 391 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,960 and learn artificial intelligence on a broader basis 392 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,080 than just here's where I need to click. 393 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,680 Yeah, absolutely. And AI is moving so quickly. 394 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:38,600 It feels like everyday I either get on my phone or I'm, you 395 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,240 know, on a browser and there's another tool available. 396 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,320 And I think having project managers have the knowledge and 397 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:51,520 use that growth mantra to to kind of ground yourself and the 398 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,120 steps of what needs to happen. I think it's a very simple and 399 00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:58,720 practical way of looking at it from a PM perspective and how 400 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,680 you can be involved in that particular assessment now with 401 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,160 AI moving so rapidly. Cornelius I'm curious. 402 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,240 I'm saying in the future. And when I say future, it's 403 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,160 probably going to be in the future like next year, not as 404 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,560 opposed to looking five years out is what my question says 405 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,480 because I can't even imagine what AI is going to be in five 406 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,920 years from now. But you know, kind of forward 407 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:26,680 thinking, which soft skill with AI automation can make PMS more 408 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,800 valuable, do you think and why? Yeah. 409 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:36,520 I think this takes me back to who will I be when AI is here. 410 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,880 I will be the person who brings the human factor to the table. 411 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:47,520 So one example is stakeholder communication with empathy. 412 00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:51,120 I disagree a little bit with what you have said there, but 413 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,360 let me explain. There are people in the AI 414 00:27:54,360 --> 00:28:00,520 industry today who say that in just a few years, few short 415 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:06,480 years, AI will be capable to really, you know, be very human 416 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,520 like. Frankly, I think they are 417 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:17,000 underestimating what we are and what we do as humans. 418 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:22,800 Think of your own interactions with your stakeholders. 419 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:31,720 You smile, you nod, handshake. You go out to lunch and and and 420 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,920 you're cracking a joke at the right moment. 421 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:43,760 Or you show grief when somebody tells you that their uncle has 422 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:50,800 to go through chemotherapy. The last one AI can do as well, 423 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:52,840 right? AI can indeed. 424 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,720 When you talk to a chachi PT and you say you know my uncle has, 425 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,280 then there will immediately come back a response. 426 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,200 Very sorry to hear that. Always a difficult situation, 427 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:03,320 right? But. 428 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,880 That is calculation. That is algorithm. 429 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,920 As far as you know, AI has algorithms and and how exactly 430 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:15,960 that works is, is frankly beyond me. 431 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:22,000 That is not rapport with your stakeholders. 432 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:31,760 So while an AI can mimic today some things that we do naturally 433 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,680 and it will get better and better at mimicking them. 434 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:45,680 Real humanity, real empathy, it's going to take a lot longer 435 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:53,840 than these few short years that some are predicting because 436 00:29:54,360 --> 00:30:00,400 yeah, to me, complex projects, and I think this is what we can 437 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:07,200 boil it down to, complex projects, they succeed based on 438 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:14,320 the rapport that we have with our stakeholders and not based 439 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,800 on calculated responses that I'm coming up with. 440 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,680 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It, it reminds me of one of the 441 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,040 core lessons I teach some of my students in a organizational 442 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,840 leadership course is there's still this concept of gut 443 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,560 instinct or, you know, yeah, gut instinct, really. 444 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,640 I don't. I agree with you. 445 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:38,720 I don't know that. AI. 446 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,440 Yeah, I don't know that AI, he's ever going to have a gut 447 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,160 instinct. You could get it to train to get 448 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,680 pretty close. But yeah, I completely agree 449 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,720 with you in that it's one of the hardest to me as APM. 450 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,960 It's one of the hardest skill sets to try to convey to folks 451 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,200 who aren't project managers in that we have these soft skills, 452 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:06,200 this humanity that we really do utilize on a day-to-day basis, 453 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,520 the relationship building and that sort of thing that comes 454 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:14,080 with just being a human being. That really plays into a role 455 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:18,240 and it's become more and more significant today more than ever 456 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,920 because you're working with diverse teams, you're working 457 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,040 with global partners, you're working remotely, you're working 458 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:28,520 in hybrid situations. The more of that humanity we can 459 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,000 bring into being a project manager, I don't know that AI 460 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:35,600 will ever be able to. I'm a bit of a sci-fi nerd, 461 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,800 right? So something like AC3PO from 462 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:45,000 Star Wars or Mr. Data from Enterprise, Star Trek. 463 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:51,760 And I think eventually, yes, we'll get there, but probably 464 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,240 not in my lifetime. Yeah, somebody who is born 465 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,400 today, Why not? That might happen, but it's 466 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,040 going to take a lot of hard work in order to get there. 467 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:04,480 That's that's kind of where we're going. 468 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:09,120 So that's also why I'm saying, you know, project managers, we 469 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,920 are because there is so much rapport needed, so much 470 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:18,960 interpersonal trust that needs to be built in projects. 471 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:27,600 And we are at least for the time being, pretty safe in our choice 472 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,920 of, of of the work that we do. Yeah. 473 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,920 Absolutely, absolutely. So I'm going to ask you probably 474 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,200 the hardest question of this conversation, Cornelius, because 475 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,160 there's been so much wisdom that you've shared with our audience 476 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,320 today and so many great practical takeaways as well. 477 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,320 But if you're to synthesize our conversation around mastering AI 478 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,440 literacy for project managers, if there's one action item that 479 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,960 you want project managers or the non project managers to take 480 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,560 away from our conversation today, which one would you 481 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,080 choose? Yeah. 482 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:07,200 So I want to send you off towards AI literacy. 483 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:14,200 And really the first step into that direction is data literacy. 484 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:19,560 And so that's my recommendation, become data literate. 485 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:24,240 And data literacy is being able to read data, being able to 486 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:28,800 understand data, being able to make sense from data, being able 487 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:34,760 to and understand the quality of data, being able to use data to 488 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,520 make decisions, being able to visualize data. 489 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,920 And even though I'm saying you know the, the data, that's the 490 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,600 thing that AI will crunch through and, and in within 491 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,720 seconds be able to, to make sense and, and bring results 492 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,440 back. But again, human in the loop, if 493 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:58,160 you are not data literate, you won't notice that there is a 494 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:03,080 problem. And here is an easy way that you 495 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:08,920 can start applying data literacy today, tomorrow. 496 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:16,639 Ask yourself this, ask your team this on my project, on our 497 00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:26,159 project, which single data set should we use in order to make 498 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,480 project decisions? What is the data set that we use 499 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,520 as the basis to make project decisions? 500 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:39,000 And most importantly, why is that data set trustworthy? 501 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:46,880 A potential answer could be it is the Sprint burned down chart 502 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:53,760 and it is trustworthy because we put in the data every day. 503 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,560 We have somebody in the back office who compares the input to 504 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:03,840 to the actual deliverables. We regularly look at it during 505 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,720 our daily stand up and we look at outliers and make sure that 506 00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:13,080 this is correct and less regularly, but still we do it. 507 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,800 We compare it to our definition of done and make sure that is 508 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:22,520 this truly done, this particular item that has been labeled as 509 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,760 done and that's what makes it trustworthy. 510 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:32,160 If you hesitated or if the answer is, you know, it's, it's 511 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:37,320 the burn down chart still, but you realize, man, we don't 512 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,680 actually check that it is accurate. 513 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,560 We don't have all these checks and balances there. 514 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:49,320 You have just applied data literacy in action because you 515 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:57,200 realized I'm using the that, that that burn down chart and it 516 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:02,760 probably has faulty data in it. I have to immediately take steps 517 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:08,480 in order to improve the data quality so that the decisions I 518 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,680 make are based on sound information and not just 519 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,360 whatever gets put into the system on a daily basis. 520 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:23,600 So this has to be audited. So my recommendation is you want 521 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:30,000 to go towards data literacy, about 17 core skills and 522 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,560 competencies. And data literacy is one of 523 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,120 these AI literacy core competencies that you should 524 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,520 really start with. So go into that direction. 525 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,920 Right. You heard it from Cornelius. 526 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,600 If there's one easy step you could take just after listening 527 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,520 to this conversation, I think, yeah, absolutely. 528 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,200 And that completely makes sense. Now I know our time's up now I'm 529 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,320 more intrigued to hear more about what you were just talking 530 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,040 about. South Cornelius, we're going to 531 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:00,920 have to have you back on for another episode. 532 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,240 But thank you so much for for this discussion today on 533 00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:07,120 Mastering AI Literacy for project managers. 534 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,640 It's been very enlightening and especially timely for us in this 535 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,960 community to, to learn more about how you're thinking about 536 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,800 it and how you would, you know, take action to, to embed 537 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:20,720 yourself as a project manager in this space. 538 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:23,400 So, Cornelius, thank you again for your time. 539 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,520 If folks want to continue the conversation with you, where can 540 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,240 they follow you online? Yeah. 541 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,080 So, well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. 542 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:37,640 Much appreciated. And while AI is my passion and I 543 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,960 really love talking about it, what really pays the bills is 544 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,880 obviously my P&P training. And if any of our audience is 545 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,520 currently preparing for thinking about the PMP exam, then my PMP 546 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,600 exam simulator ACP and CAPM as well is at 547 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,280 pm-exam-simulator.com, not PMP Exam simulator, 548 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,160 pm-exam-simulator.com. Or if you simply want to connect 549 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,360 with me, then look for my name, Cornelius Fischner on LinkedIn. 550 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,760 I'm currently the only one with that name on LinkedIn. 551 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,040 And if there are suddenly more than one, I'm the good looking 552 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:12,440 one. I'm the good looking. 1 553 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:14,640 Absolutely. Thank you again for having me. 554 00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:18,040 Of course, of course, and thank you for coming on the podcast 555 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,160 with this awesome topic. For folks that want to follow 556 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,760 me, you can find me online at Ancampia, especially on 557 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:26,480 LinkedIn, connect with me, please. 558 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,160 Happy to continue the conversation there as well as 559 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,720 connecting with the correct Cornelius if there is like a 560 00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:34,800 three or four of them. But we will make sure that we 561 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,880 drop all the links to all of your material because like I 562 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,840 said when we started this conversation, Cornelius, I'm a 563 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,640 huge fan of what you put out there for the community. 564 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,920 And I can't help but promote it to everybody that I talked to 565 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,120 who's preparing for the exam. So thank you for that too. 566 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,120 And for those listening in again, thanks for joining us in 567 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,000 this conversation. Latest installment of the 568 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,880 Everyday PM Podcast. Make sure to like, subscribe, 569 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,360 follow the podcast, leave us a comment on what you thought 570 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,320 about this episode today. And until next time, take care.