1 00:00:10,120 --> 00:00:13,120 Welcome to the Everyday PM Podcast, the podcast where we 2 00:00:13,120 --> 00:00:15,920 discuss project management principles for your everyday 3 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,200 life. My name is Ann Campia, I'm a 4 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,520 certified project manager. I've worked in the program 5 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,360 management space and I'm currently in an operational role 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:25,800 for a nonprofit marketing agency. 7 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,880 So today I'm so excited to welcome Galen Lowe, who is the 8 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,439 Co founder of the digital project manager. 9 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,400 He has his own podcast. He does, he's doing his own 10 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,120 thing. And I'm so excited that he has 11 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,520 reached out to me and we're looking forward to doing some 12 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,040 sort of podcast swap at some time here. 13 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:44,960 But Galen, welcome to the podcast. 14 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,920 For those who have not met you yet, please take a brief moment 15 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:49,600 to introduce yourself to our audience. 16 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:51,320 Yeah, sure. No, thanks for having me on the 17 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:52,240 show. It's a total honor. 18 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,360 You kind of covered a lot of it in your intro. 19 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,240 I think the things to know about me, I'm a huge digital nerd. 20 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,240 I came up managing digital projects like website builds, 21 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,280 digital transformation and now I run this thing, the digital 22 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,480 project manager. We are basically a knowledge 23 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,400 sharing community and also a training provider and we're just 24 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,520 hell bent on helping digital project professionals get 25 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,240 skilled, get confident and get connected so that they can lead 26 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,760 complex projects towards real impact. 27 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,320 I've got my podcast as well, a digital project management 28 00:01:20,320 --> 00:01:22,320 podcast. We will have you on. 29 00:01:22,320 --> 00:01:24,080 I think that's exciting. Yeah. 30 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:25,920 And that's all about just like, I don't know, tough 31 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,240 conversations into tough topics so that we can get like 32 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,000 practical and actionable insights out of those 33 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,520 conversations. I, I'm just excited to have you 34 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,160 on here because there's so much synergy even in the naming of 35 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,760 what we do right. Digital project manager everyday 36 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,720 PM There's just connectivity and all the things that we're trying 37 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,600 to do and accomplish for our community, our project manager, 38 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,440 project management community. And for those of that are not 39 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,280 project managers that listen to this podcast as well, because 40 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,200 today we are talking about artificial intelligence, which I 41 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:02,360 think is just all the rave right now, such a relevant topic. 42 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,240 I think Galen will probably get to a point where AI is just a 43 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,280 part of our everyday thing, if not it already. 44 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,360 And as project managers, I'm sure we're all scratching our 45 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,600 heads asking the question of what does this mean for us? 46 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:20,280 You know, it in terms of everybody who is encountering AI 47 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,680 is probably asking the same question. 48 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:26,960 And I think we're going to kick off with let's just kind of rip 49 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:33,320 the Band-Aid off here and I'm going to ask you about AI and AI 50 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,080 as a project management solution. 51 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,760 And really, what does that do for the role of project manager 52 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,240 in terms of redundancy if anything? 53 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,920 So your thoughts there? Ripping the Band-Aid off, yes, 54 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,800 juicy question. And yeah, absolutely at the 55 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,240 forefront of every conversation that I'm having these days. 56 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,480 I think our a lot of our immediate reaction is AI is 57 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:55,800 here, is it going to take my job? 58 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,040 And when you look at some of the tools that have been coming out, 59 00:02:58,040 --> 00:02:59,960 like especially in project management and productivity, 60 00:02:59,960 --> 00:03:04,040 like we are making leaps and bounds week over week, it's easy 61 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,440 to see a path where, OK, yeah, it does all the things that I do 62 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,680 now what? But you know, I kind of have 63 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,280 like there's two sides to to my answer here. 64 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:14,920 Yes, I'm going to sit right on the fence. 65 00:03:15,640 --> 00:03:19,440 My biased answer is no, project managers are not going to be 66 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,280 made redundant. And I'd say that because a lot 67 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:26,320 of folks assume that project management is about planning and 68 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:28,680 being organized and identifying risks. 69 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,040 And it is, absolutely. But the bulk of project 70 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,960 management, for me at least, is actually about the human skills. 71 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:36,360 It's about like building rapport. 72 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,040 It's about casting a vision. It's about inspiring the team. 73 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:40,760 It's about managing through influence. 74 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,760 It's about like negotiating. So there's all of these things 75 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,040 that AI is not yet there to replace. 76 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,600 And I think that's still, you know, it kind of almost reveals 77 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,880 the like collaboration layer that is not the administrative 78 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:56,040 layer. Yes, those things have to 79 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,520 happen. Yes, AI can help, but no, I 80 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,680 don't think it's going to suddenly stand in for a project 81 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,640 manager. And I'll, I'll dive into it in a 82 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:10,720 little bit, but I mean, you know, the reality is the role is 83 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:12,720 going to change. It's not going to be the same, 84 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:14,640 right? And The thing is project 85 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:19,320 management is a skill that is very much in demand, but the 86 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,880 number of roles with the title project manager like isn't 87 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:24,840 necessarily going to keep expanding, right? 88 00:04:24,840 --> 00:04:26,760 It's not like project management is in demand. 89 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,120 Now there's thousands of more PM jobs like the title of PM. 90 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,960 But I think what's going to happen, and I see it happening 91 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,560 already, and I've worked in organizations like this where 92 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,520 the bulk of projects being run within the organization are 93 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:40,600 being led by folks who don't even consider themselves to be 94 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,320 project managers. And I've worked in agencies 95 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,280 where they've even, you know, said, OK, listen, for a small 96 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,680 kind of less complex project, like let's save our PMS for the 97 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,520 big complex stuff. Let's just get that SME who is 98 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:56,400 like the UX researcher or, you know, the lead engineer to lead 99 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,120 that project. We don't need APM on it. 100 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,080 Let's like, you know, let's see how that goes. 101 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,320 Let's save our PMS bandwidth so that they can tackle something 102 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,320 bigger. But even still, I would say that 103 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,560 doesn't mean that PMS are going to become redundant. 104 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:10,760 And I think that for two reasons. 105 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,560 One, what I just touched on is that there are some pretty 106 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,400 complex projects going on right now. 107 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,000 And you know, we talk about this notion of like, you know, 108 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:20,720 running a project off the side of your desk. 109 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,400 There are projects that are too big to run off the side of your 110 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,520 desk, too complex to run off the side of your desk. 111 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:27,840 And that will always need a dedicated role. 112 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,680 And, you know, like project requirements are getting more 113 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:32,200 and more complex. The team configurations are 114 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,520 getting more and more complex. The the stakeholder ecosystem is 115 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:38,040 getting more and more complex. And that's where we will always 116 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,560 need dedicated project managers to, you know, it's could be a 117 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:45,400 full time job for some of the, you know, larger transformation 118 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,120 projects and that is always going to be required. 119 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:50,480 Yeah, I I agree. I agree. 120 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,200 Go ahead. I was going to say, like the 121 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,480 other part for me is like actually the mentorship side. 122 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:56,680 And I don't know if a lot of people are thinking about this, 123 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,360 but you know, who's going to teach and like oversee and like 124 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,880 bring consistency to the way projects are run within an 125 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,040 organization. Like I've seen it when it's the 126 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,280 Wild West and everyone delivers a different way and has 127 00:06:06,280 --> 00:06:08,920 different processes. It's confusing for people. 128 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,040 Eventually it stops, you know, it puts a lid on productivity 129 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,360 and you can't really kind of get to where you want to get to. 130 00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:18,800 Project managers also become, you know, we, we, we will take 131 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,520 on this responsibility to also be educated educators and 132 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,640 coaches and mentors for our colleagues who are running 133 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:26,560 projects. And that's OK. 134 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,600 We are the people who are sort of, you know, the arbiters of 135 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,160 project management, the like oracles of project management, 136 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,640 helping other people deliver projects, not necessarily 137 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,000 hogging all the projects and going, you know, get away from 138 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:39,200 my projects. I still want my job. 139 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:41,200 I think the role is going to change. 140 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,320 We're going to be dealing with more complex stuff and we're 141 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:44,800 going to have a mentoring component. 142 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:49,800 I definitely think that hoarding mentality is something that a 143 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,880 lot of project managers when early on, of course, you're 144 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:57,320 eager, your appetite is there. You want to take on as many 145 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,840 different things that they classify as projects as you can 146 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,560 and you'll hoard those for quite some time because you think by 147 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,880 taking all this on, I'm showing my value back to the 148 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,160 organization. And maybe I'm speaking from a 149 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,280 place that this was the mentality 5-10 years ago. 150 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,440 I don't know, right? Because I've been in the space 151 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,520 for quite some time. I know you have as well, Galen. 152 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,040 Maybe that's not the mentality anymore, but I do think that 153 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:25,640 there's something interesting about project managers who 154 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,640 aren't at a point where you can kind of divide the complexity of 155 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,720 things and really understand the application of AI. 156 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,080 And I love the point that you make around, you know, for those 157 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:40,280 non project management roles, AI can really be something that 158 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,960 will help enhance the workflow, will eliminate some of those 159 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,760 repetitive tasks. But it's not necessarily 160 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:51,440 replacing the soft skills, which are now known by PMI as power 161 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:53,920 skills, which whatever semantics. 162 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,760 I I still kind of have an issue with them changing soft skills 163 00:07:57,760 --> 00:07:59,800 to power skills. I think it's kind of silly, but 164 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,920 that's just me. But that emotional intelligence 165 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,200 part of it, you're still working with other human beings. 166 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,720 And to your point, I think until that is eliminated, I think AI 167 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,840 and its application is not going to make the PM role redundant. 168 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:19,000 It's also not going to hurt if you are a non project manager to 169 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,080 utilize AI. And it's not going to take 170 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,240 anything away from project managers who then need to focus 171 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,840 on the more complex projects that you had described, 172 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:29,520 especially in the digital space, right? 173 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:33,640 When it comes to the complexity and knowing who you need to work 174 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,280 with, what types of stakeholders, I don't think AI 175 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,640 can do that just yet. And until we are in a space 176 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:47,720 where the other roles have been overtaken by AIII think that 177 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,680 piece, the whole is this PM redundant? 178 00:08:50,680 --> 00:08:54,080 I don't think that will ever be something where we can say the 179 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,560 role itself has been completely eliminated. 180 00:08:56,560 --> 00:08:59,560 So all great points in terms of what you're saying. 181 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:04,000 And I love, again, the aspect of PMS can play an active role. 182 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:05,520 And let me know what you think about this. 183 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,040 I think PMS can play an active role in figuring out across 184 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:13,360 their organization what are those tasks or things that you 185 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:19,120 could utilize AI for in those roles where it's a not a project 186 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,800 manager, but it feels like project manager work, if that 187 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,000 makes sense. Do you have a take on that? 188 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,400 Absolutely. I mean, so I mean coming back to 189 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:31,400 your point, I think, you know, there is this we are susceptible 190 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,280 to feel like projects have the scarcity around them and then 191 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,680 the project rolls have a scarcity around them. 192 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,480 But you know, projects, bigot projects, you know, I think that 193 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:45,040 we'll be doing, we'll be doing a lot to help projects in general. 194 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:49,640 If we're helping non PMS run projects in terms of like AI 195 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,120 helping non PMS, you know, manage projects, is it going to 196 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,120 suddenly make somebody, you know, who has never LED a 197 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,320 project into a senior project manager overnight? 198 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,120 No, I don't think so. There are a few key areas. 199 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,560 And I think, you know, like, I wouldn't, I'm sure I'm not the 200 00:10:03,560 --> 00:10:06,560 first person to compare something like ChatGPT or Gemini 201 00:10:06,560 --> 00:10:09,320 to like Tony Stark's Jarvis from like the Marvel Universe. 202 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,200 Yeah, we're going to be doing this all of a sudden, Yeah. 203 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,240 Yeah, we have a hologram. We're going to be asking for 204 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:14,720 help. And like, you know, honestly, 205 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,280 it's already impressive as a, as an assistant, right? 206 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,920 It's a great assistant to help you achieve a goal as long as 207 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,000 you know what you want. And it's actually really quite 208 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,520 great as like a practical teacher in the moment when you 209 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,040 haven't really got time or you just aren't motivated to like 210 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,160 read a textbook or like take a course, right? 211 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,640 You know, like, well, let me pause and get my PMP right. 212 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,160 I'll be back in like several months. 213 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,000 It's there in front of you. But in terms of enhancing 214 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,120 project management processes, I think just like I would say 215 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,640 there's four big areas where I see AI being a big help for 216 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:49,960 folks who don't consider themselves to be project 217 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,600 managers. One is, I guess the 1st is just 218 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,560 like gut checking your approach. And I think as project managers, 219 00:10:56,680 --> 00:10:59,040 we kind of all know this. And part of it is that instinct 220 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,120 to be like, is what I'm being asked to do or what the team 221 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,960 telling me, is that feasible? Can I still deliver by this 222 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:07,160 deadline? Are we going to hit this 223 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,160 milestone? Or is this just a crazy plan? 224 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,640 Like is this plan like absolutely unviable? 225 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,640 And actually we've had a lot of great luck, like with things 226 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,080 like even ChatGPT 4, just like straight up being like, hey, 227 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,440 listen, like here's what I need to do and deliver. 228 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:22,760 And like, it always kind of has a little bit of an opinion. 229 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,120 It's like the the timeline's pretty tight. 230 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:27,520 You know, you might want to like, you know, check this. 231 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,760 And it's much easier, I think, to kind of like, you know, not 232 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,320 raise your hand and be that person who was like, I don't 233 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:34,840 know, boss, I don't think this is feasible. 234 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:36,440 Like you've never LED a project before. 235 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,080 Like how do you know you can kind of like lay it out and not 236 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,840 like, oh, because chat GPG told me, but because you can be like, 237 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,240 OK, well, you know, here are the activities and, and, and here 238 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,160 are some of the durations. And here's who would need to be 239 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,120 involved. And like this needs to plug into 240 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:49,400 that. Like we've got dependencies 241 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,320 here. Like there's risk, right? 242 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,880 There's risk in this timeline. And I think it's a really good 243 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:57,400 thing to put in front of a non PM who doesn't have that 244 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,160 instinct necessarily to be like 12 tasks easy. 245 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:01,600 Yeah, we can do that by the end of the month. 246 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:01,920 Yeah. Yeah. 247 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:03,040 But what are they? How big are they? 248 00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:06,640 And then, I mean, I think the other one for us is, has been 249 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,280 like identifying risks because, you know, risk management is a 250 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,280 huge part of project management. It's also like the least sexy 251 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,080 part of project management. I think. 252 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,200 I've yet to meet someone who is like really jived about 253 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,680 identifying risks. It's like a blank canvas to 254 00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:23,440 think of like everything that might go, you know, opportunist, 255 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,920 opportunistically right or like very, very wrong. 256 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,240 And it's like it's a very difficult exercise actually. 257 00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:32,240 Have you seen have you seen the new movie Inside Out too? 258 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,680 By the way, this is a little bit of a quick OK for those that are 259 00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:39,760 listening. Just the image of anxiety in the 260 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,680 scene where she's running hundreds and thousands of 261 00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:44,800 scenarios. That's what Galen is talking 262 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,680 about right now, which is in, I think in the reason why you said 263 00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:52,000 it's not a very sexy part of our role, but we had somebody has to 264 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:53,800 do it. Somebody has to be looking 265 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:55,160 around those corners for sure and. 266 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,240 Anxiety is the perfect emotion to be doing that right because 267 00:12:58,280 --> 00:12:59,920 that's what it makes people feel. 268 00:13:00,680 --> 00:13:03,880 But you know, we've had actually great luck, you know, giving, 269 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:06,840 you know, a large language model like the OR, you know, a 270 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,360 ChatGPT, the context being like, I'm running this kind of 271 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:10,840 project, like what could go wrong? 272 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,240 What could go right? And just giving us, you know, we 273 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:16,680 prompt it, it prompts us and we're like, yeah, no, that 274 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:18,160 probably won't happen. I don't think we need to worry 275 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:19,640 about that risk. Oh, that's a good one. 276 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,040 We never would have thought of that on our own. 277 00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:24,720 And there is this sort of, it is a knowledge base of some of the 278 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,600 things that have gone wrong or have gone terribly right, 279 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,240 wonderfully right on projects that you can, you know, bake 280 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,640 into your plan and keep an eye on straight your plan. 281 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,160 And I think that's a great thing because we've all had a good 282 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,880 plan that just gets kibosh by some big thing that we didn't 283 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:41,840 see coming. For sure we had seen it coming. 284 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:43,720 Especially like someone who's new to project management. 285 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:45,840 Yeah, that is like an ace up your sleeve. 286 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,960 So, yeah, I think got checking your approach, identifying 287 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:54,240 risks, I would say knowing who you need, because a lot of the 288 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,960 time you're like, OK, well, who's on my team? 289 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,280 Do I have the right people on my team to get this thing done that 290 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:04,080 I've been asked to do? And we've again, kind of been 291 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,840 able to use something like a ChatGPT to kind of suggest 292 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,320 A-Team and then go, wait a minute, we're missing this 293 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:11,960 person. And then you can be like, what 294 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:13,840 does this person do? And we're like, no, actually, 295 00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:17,640 you know, Soren does that. Actually, it's not, it's not 296 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:19,360 their title, but yeah, they can do it. 297 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,320 And you can kind of make sure you don't have a skills gap on 298 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:23,880 what you need to get done because that's the other big 299 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,440 risk of like, can we get this done by this date? 300 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,520 What's the risk? And do we have the right people? 301 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,520 Interesting. And then I, I think my 4th one 302 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,160 is just like, you know, I said it, AI doesn't help with some of 303 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,120 the like human skills, but it can. 304 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,800 So we, we use it sometimes mostly just for fun, but like to 305 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,280 prepare for a tough conversation or negotiation. 306 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:48,640 You can kind of give it the context. 307 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,360 You don't have to like give sensitive information and you 308 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:52,680 just like, here's where things are at. 309 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,920 Like, you know, what are some of my options to like approach this 310 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,840 really difficult conversation? Because that's the thing that a 311 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,680 lot of the experience, project managers listening like we cut 312 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,120 our teeth doing things like we learned the hard way. 313 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,760 We probably went into that first negotiation and it probably 314 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,800 bombed and it hurt and we didn't have the help. 315 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:12,680 We built over time. We're like, OK, well, next time 316 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,360 I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna do this, but there is 317 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,240 a lot of sort of knowledge that can be aggregated and brought 318 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,720 right to you. But like, OK, well, think about 319 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,360 this, you know, consider, you know, seeing things from the 320 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,200 other person's perspective and not just like running in saying 321 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,280 this is how it's got to be. Project manager says no, you 322 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:30,960 know, like it doesn't have to be. 323 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,800 You can get guidance on that. Yeah, yeah, for sure. 324 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:39,320 And do you think a lot of the information, so AI obviously 325 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:43,120 it's learning everyday, taking in more and more information. 326 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:49,360 So the Chat GPTS that we knew when day one it became available 327 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,400 versus today is vastly different, right? 328 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,800 So I have a few questions in terms of your key 329 00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:01,160 considerations, because I think that do you feel that it has 330 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,240 enough, Do you have enough confidence in what it is 331 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,920 returning to you from your prompts in terms of has it kind 332 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,680 of taken all of the various aspects it would need to at this 333 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,040 point? Or are you still doing kind of a 334 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,840 verification of the information it spits back at you? 335 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,880 I'm, I'm just thinking about the last example you shared where 336 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,560 you said, you know, you're asking it, do I have the right 337 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:27,720 people? Are these the right? 338 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,120 Do I have the resources to support a project of this 339 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,440 magnitude and scale and complexity? 340 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,560 Are you seeing that the information is speaking directly 341 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,800 to that, or do you still have any to do a little bit yourself 342 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,240 as a person? I mean, I'm the kind of person 343 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,800 that would never take anything at face value like just because 344 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:46,960 it's. Honest IRPM. 345 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,520 All right, I mean, you know, like our even just our media 346 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:52,800 literacy, right? Like, you know, you see an ad on 347 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,640 YouTube, doesn't mean it's true. You know, someone writes 348 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:57,200 something in Wikipedia, doesn't mean it's true. 349 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:58,840 I think we should always be a little bit critical. 350 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,720 And I think that is as natural as it will get because if a 351 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,599 human came and told me, now you got to do this, let me, you 352 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:07,960 know, let me sort of explain your job back to you. 353 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:09,000 And I'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, OK. 354 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,920 But but I'm going to do it a little bit differently. 355 00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:14,240 I think is the right way to use AI, I think. 356 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,839 Take it with a grain of salt and lends it through your 357 00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:20,640 experiences. Heck, bounce it off other humans 358 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:22,400 too. Like it's more a starting point 359 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,400 than it is the solution or the answer. 360 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,400 And I don't ever think that there is sort of one answer to 361 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,960 anything. And the way we build technology 362 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,040 is to try and achieve that. So, you know, you have your like 363 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,800 Google search where it's like, listen, I think I know, you 364 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,400 know, like the all the way from the I'm feeling lucky button 365 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,080 right back from the way the way back, but just give me the 1st 366 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:41,560 result. That's probably right. 367 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:43,960 And a lot of our behaviors around the technology we're 368 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,840 building around our knowledge is to give you the right answer. 369 00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:50,480 And I think fundamentally that's just not how humans have 370 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,720 progressed this far. But having one right answer to 371 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,240 something, there's always multiple ways to look at it. 372 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,200 So I would encourage anyone to kind of look at it critically. 373 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:01,880 And and then of course there's the other stuff, right? 374 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,600 The technology is, is, is advancing very, very rapidly, 375 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:07,400 but it's just the technology side. 376 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,920 And so the other things that I asked folks to consider is that 377 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,880 like, you know, you kind of have to know like what is sensitive 378 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,000 data or what should I not be putting in there? 379 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:18,600 What is my company policy on this? 380 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,760 Sure. Because, you know, it's so easy 381 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,560 to take this powerful tool and have it go terribly, terribly 382 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:26,160 wrong for. You. 383 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:27,760 Yeah, that's a really good point. 384 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,600 You're jumping into, you know, a, a sports car, rocket ship, 385 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,040 you know, read the manual kind of thing, right? 386 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:35,720 It's like, know what it's capable of. 387 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,920 But even beyond that, like, you know, we're all adopting AI so 388 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,200 fast and it's easy to assume that everybody is open to it. 389 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,080 But I think the other consideration for me is like 390 00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:49,280 that might not be true. And we've had a couple of 391 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,760 instances, you know, people have very differing opinions on those 392 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,760 like note taking bots, right Fireflies or whatever shows up 393 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,120 in the meeting and some people get their get their back up. 394 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,160 Some people like it's as natural as just showing up to a Zoom 395 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:03,960 meeting and everything in between. 396 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:05,720 But I think, you know, that's going to impact your 397 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:06,920 collaboration, your team culture. 398 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,040 If you've got a stakeholder that is really, you know, like not 399 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,440 open to AI, Like that's a conversation to be had with them 400 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,720 before you start, you know, plugging every AI tool into your 401 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,960 project, you know, to make it go. 402 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,440 And then I get, I think the last bit for me, it comes back to 403 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,800 that grain of salt, right? The technology knows stuff. 404 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,040 AI knows stuff, you know, it's been learning. 405 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,600 It continues to learn. It does not know everything that 406 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,400 you know, and it's going to depend on the quality of what 407 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,920 you're asking it. And the thing that you know, I, 408 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,000 I notice all the time is that we've got this behavior like we 409 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,160 are programmed to do web search, right? 410 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,640 Give me to the, give me the answer to this thing, the end. 411 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,280 We don't have this chance to refine and like chat with it, 412 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,440 but that is what AI is. That's how it learns best. 413 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,360 If you get something and you're like, I don't know, I probably 414 00:19:58,360 --> 00:19:59,640 could give you a bit more information. 415 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,800 Give it more information, like have a conversation. 416 00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:05,480 Give it the context, let it sort of like let yourself get there 417 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,240 through refinement. It's not a one and done, you 418 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,720 know, OK, yes, I've used ChatGPT to be like, hey, I have to 419 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,640 write, you know, thank you cards from my kids teachers. 420 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:15,720 Can you give me some suggestions? 421 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,880 Yes, here you go the end of by. But also, you know, you can 422 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:21,160 refine that. You can be like, can you make 423 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,680 that shorter or like, hey, can you speak in the voice of, you 424 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,400 know, someone who has this experience? 425 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,040 And you might need to like craft it together with AI. 426 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,880 It's not supposed to just deliver the one right answer. 427 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:35,600 It's supposed to help you achieve a goal. 428 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,560 And the more information it has, the more information you can 429 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,840 safely share with it, the better it's going to do. 430 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,240 So I would say it's a conversation. 431 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,400 I think the people who are using AI wrong are the folks who are 432 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,240 thinking it's just a one and done. 433 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,480 Yeah, yeah, absolutely create a project. 434 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,360 Plan. I love that, you know, something 435 00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:56,960 you said stuck this entire time that you're going through the 436 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:01,000 key considerations, which is even in the responses, there 437 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,240 could be bias in that right, depending on the type of 438 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,480 information that the chat bot or whatever has taken in. 439 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,400 And so we have to really be cautious about what type of 440 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,760 biases that the responses are carrying. 441 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,400 And it could also be to your point in the way that we phrase 442 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,240 our prompts. And there's another thing that I 443 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,840 wanted to highlight of what you said, which was really relevant 444 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,520 to, you know, I think a lot of spaces where when we were 445 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,520 growing up as project managers, a lot of people would say, we 446 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,320 need APM, we need APM, but they didn't really understand what 447 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,120 the role was. They just thought they needed 448 00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:42,440 it. And they had a very vague 449 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:46,280 definition of this catch all person that could do all the 450 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,280 things to help stabilize and bring structure to a company. 451 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,920 And I kind of think in that same perspective, you could put AI in 452 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,640 that space and say, I know you said there, there could be, you 453 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,160 could have some leadership that's adverse to AI. 454 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,520 But then on the flip side, you might have some leadership teams 455 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,400 that think they know what AI can do for them. 456 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,800 And then their expectations are completely off base from what it 457 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,120 can actually do when it's applied to your organization. 458 00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:18,720 I'm wondering if you've seen some examples of that, both the 459 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,280 successes and the the failures around AI in terms of its 460 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,320 application. No, I think that's a really good 461 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,080 question. And you know, we've been seeing 462 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,720 it a lot in the project world, even in the product world right 463 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,920 now where it's kind of almost AI for AI sake. 464 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,880 But I'd add an inflection to that, which is like there's a 465 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,880 sort of competitive nature to it. 466 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,320 It's like everyone else is going to be using AI. 467 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,480 We need to figure this out now, but as leaders of an 468 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,880 organization or leaders of an operation, like coming in and 469 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:49,320 like trying to do wholesale change. 470 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,240 We're AI now, AI and everything, please. 471 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,320 Or like coming with that ambiguity. 472 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,400 It's funny because you know, we talk about like crafting a 473 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,040 prompt for AI. Well, craft that prompt for your 474 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,680 teams, right? To be like, here's what we want 475 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,560 to do with it. Not just like go do AI wholesale 476 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,160 change, AI everything, figure it out. 477 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,480 That's where I see it go wrong. Where everyone's like trying to 478 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,160 like rewire their entire business to use AI everywhere 479 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,040 without understanding what is what, what is it that they 480 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,200 actually want from it. And I mean, the flip side of 481 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,840 that is that, you know, I'm sure someone is doing successful 482 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:22,560 wholesale AI change, but I haven't seen it. 483 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:27,840 What I have seen is people doing like safe to fail real world 484 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,280 practical experiments to be like, OK, everyone hates risk 485 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,640 identification like we and, but and yet all of our projects seem 486 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,320 to run into these risks time and time again. 487 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:38,440 We're not doing anything about it. 488 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,400 OK, let's work on this one project and let's do risk 489 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,840 management with the team with the support of a chat, you know, 490 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,200 like you know, ChatGPT or AI tool of your choice. 491 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,560 You know, let's run an exercise in mirror using it's AI solution 492 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,800 where it's generating some stuff that we can react to. 493 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,160 And then let's see, let's see if a people enjoyed that better 494 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:00,960 than trying to come up with things that might go wrong from 495 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,040 scratch. Let's see if it helped us avoid, 496 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,400 you know, a big pothole in the road that we keep running into. 497 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,360 And let's see if like our our our stakeholders or our clients 498 00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:12,240 or our sponsors or the people working on the project, let's 499 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,120 see like what friction it creates or what, you know, it 500 00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:19,800 empowers them to do. And then let's scale it because, 501 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,320 you know, it'd be easy to say even in the risk management 502 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,760 example, right? OK, all risk management must use 503 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:30,000 ChatGPT now. Goodbye is not necessarily going 504 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,240 to lead to, you know, meaningful progress, but if you can like 505 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,800 run it kind of scientifically right, you're iterating through, 506 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,040 you are incrementing your way towards being an AI enabled 507 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,320 organization. That's where I've seen it be 508 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,520 much more successful, not least because the change management 509 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,480 aspect is much smaller. So yeah, you have an extra 510 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:50,800 meeting. In your project now, right? 511 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,120 Yeah, it's not like suddenly your world is upside down, yes, 512 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,360 and you don't know how to do your job anymore. 513 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,640 And now AI does and then it's easy to be like, OK, I guess you 514 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,680 know, need to find other work now. 515 00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:07,920 Isn't that true of any change? I mean, AI or not, it's like 516 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,640 when you when when your leadership team decides 517 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,560 everything we're going to do is going to be turned upside down. 518 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,040 I definitely think there might be some risks involved in that. 519 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,440 I'm just I'm just going to put some money on that. 520 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:24,800 But I think, you know, kind of going back to those non project 521 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,800 manager tasks, because I think this is a really interesting 522 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,320 space because in most of the conversations we are both of us 523 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,760 are hearing within the project management community, it's so 524 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,080 much focus on the project management role itself and those 525 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,400 tasks that are related. But then, you know, you wanted 526 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,680 to come on here and let's talk about the stuff that's not 527 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,120 project management, right? A non project manager who has 528 00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:48,800 tasks that we could utilize AI for. 529 00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:51,800 You know, what are some of those potential challenges when it 530 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:57,040 comes to transitioning from that those tasks to something that AI 531 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,360 could maybe effectively do for the organization? 532 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,360 What are some of those challenges? 533 00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:05,400 How do we address them? Have you seen any use cases that 534 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,920 you can share with the audience? Yeah, actually. 535 00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:13,160 So I did really want to specifically talk about talk to 536 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:18,560 non PMS and also PMS at the same time, because I think, you know 537 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,440 that some of these transitions are relevant to that entire 538 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,480 group. And whether we like it or not, 539 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,560 whether the listeners like it or not, projects are being 540 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,080 delivered by folks who are not trained as project managers. 541 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,280 And that's OK. But then there's these tasks 542 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,760 that sort of come out to their plate and then the AI sort of 543 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:39,600 variable like adding complexity, well, seemingly like looking 544 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,920 like it's going to remove complexity or as it's actually 545 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:43,320 adding complexity. Yeah. 546 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,840 So I mean, here's here's where I've seen some issues. 547 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,520 OK, Well, like a 5050 split. Sometimes when you are prompting 548 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,960 something like ChatGPT, as someone who's not a project 549 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:58,520 manager, you're like, teach me this thing. 550 00:26:58,520 --> 00:26:59,840 Tell me about this thing that I don't know. 551 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,920 It will know and it will respond to you as you're learning. 552 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,520 So you're going to get a very non PM answer. 553 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,840 It's like, OK, you're starting out and here's what you need to 554 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:15,080 know, which might not be the answer you need now that you're 555 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:16,680 actually kind of a project manager. 556 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,720 So if you're getting the sort of basic ground level definition of 557 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,040 a thing and then you're taking that to your team and you're 558 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,720 being like, yeah, I know what I'm doing this thing. 559 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,080 You might need a PM answer from it. 560 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:30,600 And you actually can, you can prompt it. 561 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,400 You can say, act as a seasoned project manager working in the 562 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:35,680 nonprofit space. Yeah. 563 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,960 And then do this thing and please give me bullet points out 564 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:41,760 of it. So you can kind of, I was 565 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,800 talking to someone and they're like, I use both voices. 566 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,400 Sometimes I'll be like, I don't know a thing about this thing, 567 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,680 Tell me about it. And then now tell me the same 568 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,520 thing as though you are an expert and let me get that 569 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,240 vocabulary and let me understand the bigger picture. 570 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,920 Again, not a one and done. You can ask it the same question 571 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,280 and sort of angle and tilt the response to what you need. 572 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,880 So I, I, I've seen that happen where people are like, OK, you 573 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,680 know, it's not really helping me. 574 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,760 It's giving me, you know, dictionary definitions of a 575 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,560 thing. And that's not helping. 576 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,920 But you can actually prompt it to act as something, you know, 577 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,920 act as an experienced project manager and it'll give you a bit 578 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,480 of a different answer. It'll go deeper. 579 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,200 So I've seen that kind of be a, a, a hiccup. 580 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,680 The other thing I've seen is like, it's like putting the 581 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:35,400 puzzle pieces together is still difficult and it's kind of like 582 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,880 you have got AI now, so you should be able to figure it all 583 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,880 out. But a lot of the time it's strip 584 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,400 feed, right? You're like, OK, I need an 585 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,680 answer to this now. I need an answer to this now I 586 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,240 need an answer to this. And you kind of have this these 587 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,360 conversations, but it's not always as easy to zoom out and 588 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,840 understand the 50,000 foot view of like how all these things fit 589 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,320 together and seeing the bigger picture. 590 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,040 And then therefore being a better project leader because 591 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:00,960 you kind of understand what's going on. 592 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,960 Not just, you know, walking through the fog, seeing an inch 593 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,400 ahead of you every time is to be able to kind of like, OK, I 594 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,040 still need to. It's still my responsibility as 595 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,520 someone who has a project that I'm meant to deliver. 596 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,680 It's still my responsibility to kind of zoom out, understand how 597 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,640 everything fits together. And in a lot of cases, I mean, 598 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,040 AI, we can do that for you. But I think the way we use it to 599 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:23,880 kind of prompt and then prompt and then prompt and like walk 600 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,120 down this path, prompt by prompt won't give you that. 601 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,840 It won't just deliver this. By the way, you've asked me 602 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,600 these 17 things. I think you're here. 603 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,800 You need to consider this phase, your next stage is going to be 604 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,520 this. It might not have, it might not 605 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,320 give all that. It might know it could. 606 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,240 But the way we prompt doesn't always give us a, the sort of 607 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,600 context and that bigger picture. Sure, sure. 608 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:52,160 And then what do you think about like I could easily see APM or 609 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,200 sorry, even a non PM at some point who's managing some 610 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,520 projects. You said like 17 prompts so it 611 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,680 made me think about this. I found myself doing this as 612 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,480 well. I don't think you can 613 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:12,680 necessarily manipulate what the AI, you know, chat is going to 614 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,280 give you back. And do you think in that 615 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,920 scenario where you're describing, you've vetted the 616 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,920 prompt of multiple times it in some ways, do you think that 617 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,680 that person is looking for something very specific and 618 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,480 they're just waiting for the AI to tell them that? 619 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,040 And then the other, the other piece that I I'm wondering about 620 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:37,120 that you've seen is in non PM. So as they're using AI, what, 621 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,600 what is that limit? Like at what point have you 622 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,000 said, OK, I put this prompt in 17 times, I'm not quite getting 623 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,000 what I need. I need to just go ask somebody 624 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,960 about how to do XY and Z because it's AI is not helping me. 625 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,360 Like, have you seen any of that happening as well? 626 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:55,240 Yeah. And I mean, you know, coming 627 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,240 back to that 17 prompt thing and like kind of not getting what 628 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,080 you wanted and maybe not even knowing how to ask for it kind 629 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,920 of thing is like, you know, I, I think when you get to that point 630 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,800 where like every action you're taking on your project is 631 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,360 preceded by, you know, going to ChatGPT or going to Gemini or 632 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,880 going to cloud or whatever. And like, so in other words, 633 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,160 you're like, do a thing, OK, ask AI, do a thing, ask AI do a 634 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,880 thing. Like that maybe shouldn't 635 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,680 precede every action you take. It also shouldn't dictate every 636 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,720 action you take, right? Again, like taking this with a 637 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,320 grain of salt. And there will be these sort of 638 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,120 moments of like, OK, I'm not getting, you know, what I need 639 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,920 from it. But also maybe I just don't know 640 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,120 what to ask. And maybe I shouldn't be like, 641 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,320 if it's not saving you time anymore because you're like, I'm 642 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,640 like 17 prompts in and the meeting's almost over. 643 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,240 Yeah, right. They're like, OK, well, I 644 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,200 haven't figured this out yet. It's still. 645 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,400 It's a powerful tool, but it's kind of like being told to, 646 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,920 like, build a car from scratch every day, right? 647 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,120 It's like, at a certain point, you're going to be like, I 648 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,680 cannot build an engine from scratch just by asking 649 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,520 questions. And when you get that feeling 650 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,440 and it's, you know, the tool's no longer helping you keep 651 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,400 things on track, and there's more ambiguity than there was 652 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:08,920 before. Yeah. 653 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,480 I think that's a great time to sort of raise your hand, ask for 654 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,440 help, but also, like, start setting expectations of, like, 655 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,520 what you're capable of doing when you're doing it, like, your 656 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,560 main thing, right? You're not a dedicated project 657 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:25,080 manager in this scenario that you know, what is actually 658 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:29,520 feasible and realistic for your organization to expect from you 659 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,600 and not just be like, OK, well, yeah, I, you know, I should be 660 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,800 able to do this because I have AI, but be able to also manage 661 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,840 expectations with your leaders to be like, I got this far. 662 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,520 But like, if I, if I keep going this way, like I don't think 663 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,240 this is actually helping the organization achieve it's goals. 664 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,120 I don't think my project is being helped by it. 665 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,200 You know, now might be a great time to either get me trained or 666 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,960 bring in some extra firepower to deliver this project. 667 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,680 And I think that's the main thing for me is it's not. 668 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,560 They're not mutually exclusive. You can get help from AI and you 669 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,880 can get help from humans at the same time, right? 670 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,720 It's like neither one of those should be dictating what actions 671 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,520 you're taking. They're all inputs into what you 672 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,280 decide to do. And, you know, I think there's 673 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:19,480 some, some huge pillars there that, you know, I'll do a 674 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,200 shameless plug as well. But like, you know, AI is great 675 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,640 at understanding what we've done already in the past and like, 676 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,640 best practices from that. Yeah. 677 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,280 But humans, I think are still better about, you know, 678 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:34,240 understanding the context and using that to envision a future 679 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,720 for sure. And I think that's really 680 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,280 important. You know, AI doesn't know all of 681 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,320 those stories in your head or all of those experiences that, 682 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,680 that, that you had, you know, throughout grade school that 683 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,960 made you, you know, who you are or that, you know, that one 684 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,920 project where that like that thing, that really unique thing 685 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,040 happened. And you know, it's not anywhere 686 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:54,640 on the Internet. It's just in here. 687 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:56,960 There's a lot of that in people's brains. 688 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,840 And so, you know, that's why we're so huge on on on community 689 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,520 and sharing information and supporting one another because 690 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,720 it's really these conversations. I think it's the knowledge 691 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,840 exchange. It's a storytelling, it's, you 692 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,360 know, helping each other build skills based on those 693 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,679 experiences that I think helps fill in that gap. 694 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,960 AI can get you this far. That's fine. 695 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,080 But you know, if we're relying on that for all of human 696 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,120 knowledge now, it's just going to loop. 697 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,480 Like it'll learn very, you know, incrementally. 698 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,440 The thing that's always made us great as humans is our 699 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,960 creativity, our ability to communicate with one another, 700 00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:35,800 our ability to build on one another's ideas, try a thing, 701 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,760 decide whether or not it worked and like keep going from there. 702 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,199 So, you know, I think, you know, my big thing is the support you 703 00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:45,920 need as a non PM to, to, to do projects or even as a project 704 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,440 manager running projects. Like your support comes from two 705 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,600 places now. It's comes from your AI tools 706 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,639 and it comes from like leaning on real people to kind of, you 707 00:34:55,639 --> 00:34:58,280 know, develop an understanding of what the future might be and 708 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,960 how you should proceed with the information that you have. 709 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,440 Gosh, I love that. It's just a different 710 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,240 perspective, a different way of learning and application. 711 00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:09,920 I think, Galen, I'm going to throw one more curveball at you 712 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,480 before we round out this conversation because I think you 713 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,360 and I, before we started off mic, both said we could easily 714 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:22,000 talk about this topic for hours. So my curveball is this. 715 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:28,000 Are we having this same type of conversation in the context of 716 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,600 PM and non PM and AI? If we were to do this podcast 717 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:38,040 about, I don't know, three years from now, five years from now, 718 00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:40,880 what is that conversation look like? 719 00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:45,720 That's a great question. I told you it was a curveball. 720 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,880 It was, it was about a decade ago when we kind of started 721 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,760 talking about the advancement of technology and how it's going to 722 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,320 look specifically from a UX lens. 723 00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:58,480 And we kind of talking about the idea that like, you know, doing 724 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,360 a wireframe isn't going to be the in demand skill because at 725 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,920 some point AI is going to be able to do that. 726 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,680 And we started talking about not just UX as a user experience, 727 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,640 but like like MX or like RX, like robot experience. 728 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:17,160 It's like, what about this world where we're interfacing more 729 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:22,360 readily with technology and a world where technology is 730 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,160 interfacing with one another in itself, right? 731 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,800 And, and what does that collaboration look like? 732 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,880 And three years, I know it doesn't seem like a long time, 733 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,640 but you've seen the speed at which these things are 734 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,160 advancing. And it's not hard to imagine a 735 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,280 world where you've got an AI, you know, humanoid robot on your 736 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,920 team or shows up on Zoom, or, you know, it's already kind of 737 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:45,040 happening, right? But you're actually. 738 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,000 Like interfacing and interacting. 739 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,640 And you know, I, I just said support comes from two places 740 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,240 now, right? Yeah, your tools and your 741 00:36:51,240 --> 00:36:53,240 people. Imagine you're on the Zoom call, 742 00:36:53,240 --> 00:36:54,560 right? And you're like, like, OK, you 743 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,760 know, like, hey, you know, like, you know, what do you think 744 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,120 about this to your human colleague? 745 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,400 And then turning and going, OK, you know, like ChatGPT Zoom 746 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,160 attendee bot, like, what do you think? 747 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:08,920 And they're like, well, I think this and you're like, OK, that's 748 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:09,840 great. Let's put those two things 749 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:11,480 together and here's how we're gonna move forward. 750 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,480 I think that is like a feasible reality. 751 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,200 It seems very, you know, sci-fi right now for sure. 752 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,120 But you know, it's gonna be sci non fi pretty quickly because 753 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,360 that's just the way we're wired. You know, we take these 754 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,840 cautionaries very tales from very bright creative people who 755 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,040 have warned us about technology, and we just do it anyways. 756 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,360 So that's my predictor. But at the same time, I think it 757 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:41,240 can be productive and I think it will embody that whole cohesion 758 00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:43,600 between the two things. And then it will create a whole 759 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:48,800 bunch of other problems that don't get me too deep into the 760 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,800 iRobot or. Hey, the sci-fi movies always 761 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:56,320 said by the year 2000, we'd all have our own robots with 762 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,880 artificial intelligence living in our houses. 763 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,960 So I mean, who knows? But I, I love the insight. 764 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,760 I love kind of the forward thinking, the future of what we 765 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,160 can expect from from Galen Lowe and the digital project manager. 766 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,360 I think that your perspective highly relevant for the everyday 767 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,760 PM as well, or what we were calling during this 768 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,200 conversation, the non traditional or even the non PMS 769 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,080 that are listening in on this conversation. 770 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,520 So Galen, this has been fantastic. 771 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,600 Honestly an honor to have you as a guest on the podcast. 772 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,120 Your insights are are highly relevant to the space that we're 773 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,520 living in right now as the project management community. 774 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,160 So if people want to continue the conversation with you, where 775 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,200 can they follow you online? Oh yeah. 776 00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:40,520 I mean, come check out the digital project manager. 777 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,520 We are at thedigitalprojectmanager.com. 778 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,760 We run a community, we've got the podcast and honestly, we're 779 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:51,080 just like, we just publish really like as much value and 780 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:52,600 knowledge as we can for free on our site. 781 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:54,920 So definitely check that out. We're always talking about this 782 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,400 sort of thing. My podcast as well, the digital 783 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,880 project management podcast. And actually like we're quite 784 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,280 active on like Instagram and we've got our YouTube channel. 785 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,520 We are the digital PM on both of those channels. 786 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,400 That's where we try and have a lot more fun with things because 787 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,360 there's a lot of serious topics and there's a lot of complexity 788 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,000 that we're dealing with. But at the end of the day, you 789 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:22,480 know, it's it's not, it's not sort of as life or death as some 790 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,520 other professions. So we don't mind having a bit of 791 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,360 fun just to bring that levity. So if that's kind of you and, 792 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,280 you know, you're looking for that sort of mental break that 793 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,160 doesn't necessarily take you out of your work. 794 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,920 Yeah, we're good for that too. I absolutely do. 795 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,320 So I will be hopping on to the Digital Project Manager YouTube 796 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:45,480 channel after we end this conversation For folks that want 797 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,800 to, you can follow the everyday PM. 798 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,320 We're on Spotify, any of your podcasting platforms as well, 799 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,560 and you can follow me. I'm on LinkedIn and Campia. 800 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,640 I'm also on all the other social media platforms too. 801 00:39:57,720 --> 00:40:01,640 So for Galen and I and this conversation around digital 802 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:06,400 space, non PMS, PMS and AI look forward to catching up. 803 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,520 Up with you maybe in three years to talk about this same topic 804 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,480 and we'll see how different this conversation is, but that will 805 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,120 do it for Galen and I and this installment of the Everyday PM 806 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:16,840 podcast. Thank you all so much for 807 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,520 joining us. And until next time, take care.