1 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,120 Welcome to the Everyday PM Podcast, the podcast where we 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,080 discuss project management principles for your everyday 3 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:12,960 life. My name is Anne Kiempia, I am a 4 00:00:13,040 --> 00:00:16,680 project manager, I'm an operations leader, and I am also 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,240 the host and founder of The Everyday PM. 6 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,720 I am so excited to welcome our very special guest, Doctor Mala, 7 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,280 who is here to talk about the US construction workforce crisis 8 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:29,320 building skills from the ground up. 9 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,400 Now, Doctor Mala, you have a ton of accolades behind you. 10 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,040 You're currently the senior project management professional. 11 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:39,720 You're also a PMI global construction ambassador, you've 12 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,280 worked on infrastructure programs that are in in the 13 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,840 excess of 47 billion plus dollars. 14 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,840 I mean, you just have it all and you've spent a majority of your 15 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,400 career in the construction project management space. 16 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:57,800 So I'm so honoured and excited to have you on the podcast to 17 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,160 share your insights about this world. 18 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,080 For those who have not met you yet, please take a brief moment 19 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:04,879 to introduce yourself to our audience. 20 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:10,200 Thank you so much, Ann. And I really feel privileged to 21 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,440 having got an opportunity to discuss about the kind of 22 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,400 current status of the construction industry and what 23 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,760 sort of issues, challenges or pain points that are existent 24 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:28,200 and how the construction workforce in the US is having a 25 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:32,480 sort of major backlog with respect to skills and the 26 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,800 workforce. And even at the professional 27 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:39,400 level, there's like, you know, of various skill sets that needs 28 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,280 to be developed in a very meteoric phase. 29 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:50,320 Otherwise, I think there would be a big challenging issues with 30 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,480 respect to constructing mega projects, which I would like to 31 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:56,720 discuss in the following conversations. 32 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:03,680 And I thank also an everyday PM podcast for trying to give my 33 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:09,280 reflective thoughts on the various sorts of construction 34 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,640 related day-to-day issues or problems that exist. 35 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:18,880 So to begin with, I'm a senior construction project management 36 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,680 professional. So it's been like more than 17 37 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,200 years I have been in the construction landscape 38 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:31,400 navigating towards the various ebbs and flows of various 39 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,680 regions that I have worked for. I worked in the Asian country 40 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,960 like India and then I moved to Canada where I worked for large 41 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:45,560 transit or the mega projects like the Ontario Line hood 42 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:49,880 Ontario as well as EV battery manufacturing plants which I got 43 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:56,720 an opportunity to expose have a different geographical exposure 44 00:02:56,920 --> 00:03:01,640 with respect to my brought up which which was in the other 45 00:03:01,640 --> 00:03:04,800 country. And then now I have been playing 46 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:09,320 a pivotal role in the current US construction industry, 47 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,840 especially in the project management with respect to 48 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:17,520 controlling the projects, project controls rules for the 49 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,320 various projects that are there in the US construction industry. 50 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,800 So currently I'm playing one of the key role in the project 51 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:30,880 management information systems solutions development for 52 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,360 planning, scheduling and risk management systems for Port of 53 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:41,600 Oakland. And apart from that, I have got 54 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,640 work experience spanning rail. From the rail or the transit 55 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:50,440 projects to aviation, maritime, commercial real estate, water, 56 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:55,840 industrial and life sciences. I was privileged to have a taste 57 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:02,160 of the different or the diverse infrastructure programs and 58 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:07,560 apart from this, majority of my career has been revolved around 59 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,920 the project control stones. So what's project control? 60 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:16,519 It's more of like controlling the time schedule and scope of 61 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,839 any project or a program it could be. 62 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:23,440 So apart from that, I've been actively volunteering and I've 63 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,920 been recently nominated like as you mentioned for the PMI Global 64 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:32,840 Construction Ambassador in the North American segment, which is 65 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:38,640 where I'm trying to focus on the various digital construction 66 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,440 management initiatives that needs to be brought into and the 67 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:49,000 kind of efficient processes and being more specifically tool 68 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:54,840 agnostic. Rather concentrating more on the 69 00:04:54,840 --> 00:05:00,240 domain of the various knowledge domain expertise rather than 70 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:06,360 just being tool specific or tool is just being an enabler, but it 71 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:11,720 shouldn't be the main basic core element with which they can work 72 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:13,920 on. And apart from that, I'm also 73 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,800 playing a key role as a Co vice president for AAC New Jersey 74 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,680 section which is the association of advancement in cost 75 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,240 engineering. And also I work as a project 76 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,480 manager for professional development PMI Biztalk series. 77 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,840 Apart from that, I have certain competency skills with respect 78 00:05:34,840 --> 00:05:39,640 to PMP lead green associate lead 6 Sigma black belt. 79 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:46,800 So over a period of time, I have got a kind of notion that 80 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,920 digitalization was missing in the construction industry. 81 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,800 And that's when I pivoted towards pursuing my doctoral 82 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:58,760 degree and the and pursued my doctoral studies and completed 83 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:03,040 it in 2024. And I've been continuously 84 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,800 publishing research articles may on in the major publications 85 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,520 such as international peer reviewed journals from American 86 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:15,600 Society of Civil Engineers, Emerald Publications, Taylor and 87 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,120 Francis, and apart from that book chapters. 88 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,200 And I'm and I'm an active proponent of women in 89 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:32,720 construction industry. So I wanted to make many of the 90 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:36,600 women peers in the construction industry to understand that 91 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:42,800 construction is not just a kind of a male dominated carrier. 92 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,320 Every woman can have their foothold. 93 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,760 It's like the resilience, the commitment and the kind of clear 94 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,240 vision that they need to have fixated in their mind rather 95 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,960 than just going with the stereotype kind of outlook. 96 00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:00,640 They have been passed out through their family members or 97 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,320 so. So that's a that's a brief thing 98 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,600 about myself. Yeah, absolutely. 99 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,200 And, and I'm so grateful for the time that you have to just spend 100 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,040 some time with our audience today to talk about this 101 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,240 critical issue around, you know, the construction workforce 102 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:21,000 crisis and what the skill gaps could be within the space. 103 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,840 This is essentially how Doctor Mulla and I have connected. 104 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:29,760 So for those that are listening, thankful for PMI connecting us 105 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,520 because they saw the work that Doctor Mulla has described she's 106 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,120 been doing across her span of her career. 107 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,720 And I just published my dissertation on sense of 108 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:40,400 belonging of women in construction. 109 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,800 And so we ultimately found synergy and, and, and the shared 110 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,480 purpose here. And so we're super excited to 111 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:51,520 bring this topic to the everyday PM podcast audience for that 112 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,440 reason. So let's just dive in because 113 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,080 Doctor Malla, based on the, you know, mega projects that you 114 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,440 worked on, the infrastructure programs that you've worked on, 115 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,680 obviously from your frontline experience being within the 116 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,960 construction space, what is it the US construction workforce 117 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,720 crisis actually look like on the ground? 118 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,760 And what are you seeing that keeps you up at night? 119 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:22,640 Well, there is not a single problem or a pain point that is 120 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,480 causing the construction workforce crisis. 121 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:33,320 So on the ground, the US construction force looks like as 122 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,159 if it's. It doesn't look like quite 123 00:08:36,159 --> 00:08:39,080 abstract. It more looks like schedules 124 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,120 that I technically work on paper, but then when it comes to 125 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:47,920 the execution, it fails. So why is that? 126 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,440 Because like for instance, some of the mega projects that I 127 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:57,040 worked like in the Ontario Line and various sorts of projects in 128 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:01,000 the Port of Oakland. Also, currently it's not just 129 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,160 about the headcount that matters, but it's the capability 130 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:11,160 of the resources that are also present is also of paramount 131 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:16,360 importance. OK, so here the critical roles 132 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:21,400 that needs to be played are actually missed for making sure 133 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,680 that the construction projects to be successful. 134 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:30,520 Like for instance, if we look at the aspect of experienced 135 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:36,520 planners or the schedulers per SE, there is lacuna of planners 136 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:42,120 and schedulers who understand the construction logic, risk and 137 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:48,000 constructibility. They are more experts in using a 138 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,040 particular tool, but they haven't got that knack of 139 00:09:52,560 --> 00:09:54,760 understanding the ground realities. 140 00:09:55,160 --> 00:10:00,720 So if you build something on the system or a paper, it needs to 141 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:02,520 translate into the ground reality. 142 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,640 That's what it's missing. So these the critical roles like 143 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,440 the experienced planners are a big bottleneck. 144 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:14,160 Earlier majority of the planners, their due diligence 145 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:22,280 was to go to the project sites, visualize the entire progress 146 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,600 that's happening in the project sites and then come back and try 147 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,280 to make inputs to their schedules in the software. 148 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:35,080 And that's how they try to check whether the schedule and the on 149 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:40,880 ground reality matches. So nowadays that sort of 150 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,880 expertise is something which is missing in majority of the 151 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,200 projects. So this is with the professional 152 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,880 level I'm trying to mention. Like when it comes to 153 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:54,840 supervisors, the current supervisors who are also 154 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,640 graduating and getting into those rules should be in a 155 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,000 position to translate the schedule. 156 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:06,560 So, So what is the schedule like for the novice people? 157 00:11:06,560 --> 00:11:10,800 Like you have a construction schedule which is having a 158 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:15,880 particular project with many activities with start and finish 159 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:17,680 dates and what's the critical part? 160 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:19,680 All these sorts of information will be there. 161 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:25,160 So there is lack of supervisors who can translate these 162 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:30,120 schedules into daily work plans. So this sort of another issue is 163 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,560 there. So because of this, they're 164 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,920 reeling under the rework due to poor coordination. 165 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:42,520 And many of the times the long lead items like for instance if 166 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:50,200 you take the transit projects, the sort of systems that needs 167 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,560 to come into picture, all these kinds of long lead items are 168 00:11:53,560 --> 00:11:57,840 being misunderstood. And also they also have to wait 169 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:05,080 for crews until their upstream planning is being meticulously 170 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,480 done. So upstream planning is 171 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,160 something which is getting failed because the crews are 172 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:17,120 waiting for this information. So how can we have the skill 173 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,080 gap? So I was trying to mention about 174 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,480 the skill gaps and now there is other bigger issue that is the 175 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,560 labour shortage. A labour shortage would slow the 176 00:12:27,560 --> 00:12:31,960 projects. However the skills which are I 177 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,800 mean like the skill gaps would try to break the projects. 178 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,360 So you require workforce who is having the skills and you 179 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:44,200 require the workforce who actually builds the the real 180 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:46,880 groundwork which they would be performing. 181 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:53,200 So workers exist, but then many of them cannot translate or read 182 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,760 a critical path method schedule. So the professionals who work in 183 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:01,160 the project site like the supervisors or the OR the 184 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:05,480 resident engineers or in charges needs to translate them. 185 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,080 This is what they have to build it. 186 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:13,200 So that's missing and very few understand interface risk. 187 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:20,280 So construction is not a single siloed kind of only a civil 188 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,080 engineers, only Mechanical Engineers. 189 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,440 It's not a silos oriented engineers who work so civil, 190 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:30,080 mechanical, electrical, plumbing and you have various sorts of 191 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,800 other discipline departments that you need to connect with. 192 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:39,360 So this sort of interface risk and float ownership and the kind 193 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,040 of recovery plan that they have to make in case if they miss the 194 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,120 deadline or the delays is also missing. 195 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:51,360 So because of this, as a result, you have this artificial 196 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:55,080 acceleration and unsafe stacking of trades. 197 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,560 So you have less time and you have to complete the work. 198 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:04,120 So you bring in at a sudden numerous number of workforce to 199 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,280 try to to accomplish with a very less amount of time. 200 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:12,360 So unsafe incidences happen and that's again a kind of unsafe 201 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:13,720 stacking of trades that happened. 202 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:20,280 And then after all this, you have legal disputes that happens 203 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:25,520 and then finally claims the various sorts of legal disputes 204 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,640 happen across various parties with respect to contractor owner 205 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,400 and the other sub consultants and consultants. 206 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:38,280 So this is how it looks like. So what I can tell is the crisis 207 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:44,920 is not just about not having workers, but it's about not 208 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:48,320 having ready skilled workers. Yeah. 209 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,360 Yeah. The way you've compartmentalized 210 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:56,160 that makes a lot of sense because the contents contacts 211 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,360 you provided is it's not just a pipeline issue, right? 212 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,720 We're getting talent in. It's just there's also this 213 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,800 other gap that exists around the skills. 214 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,920 So I'm curious in terms of how you've seen that compared to, 215 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,880 because construction is global and obviously you carry such a 216 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,760 wealth of experience, not just we're talking about US right 217 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,200 now, but obviously you've done a lot of work in Canada and around 218 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:22,960 the world. How does that compare to what 219 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,200 you've seen globally? Yeah. 220 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,840 Well, there are multiple factors that needs to be looked into. 221 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:33,200 So with respect to the Asian countries which I worked, there 222 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,600 was a strong technical depth that's involved and also the 223 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:42,800 execution was quite heavy. However, there was a kind of 224 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:51,960 less adoption of technology and what I found was there was more 225 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,680 fatigue in the workers that they've been working. 226 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:05,120 And very slowly, what I imagine is a sense of pride in their 227 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,520 workmanship is being missed. Like for instance, I'll tell you 228 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:16,120 a group of workers who have been, I mean, like you expect if 229 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,160 I'm an, if my father is an engineer, you expect your 230 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,840 daughter, I mean, like you, you come from a breed of doctors or 231 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,800 engineers. You expect your lineage to also 232 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,880 to follow the same thing. But in the construction force, 233 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,440 it's not just about the construction force at the trades 234 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,400 level. It's, it's so happening that 235 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:43,360 their children are taking up some other professions. 236 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:49,720 So this ageing workforce further their lineage are not continuing 237 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:51,880 in the trades, they're going to some other domain. 238 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,280 So that is an issue with the Asian countries that I work 239 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,680 with. It's happening like the lineage 240 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:05,480 is not being continued and they have a kind of concentrated 241 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:10,440 pockets of workforce that's existing in particular regions. 242 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:17,000 So when those regional workforce are absent, it's difficult for 243 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:21,560 the entire project to go in a in a stalled manner. 244 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:27,200 So, so the kinds of labour laws and are like quite good over 245 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,520 there. However, they do not have that 246 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:34,440 kind of foundational knowledge literacy. 247 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:36,960 Very slowly they are being developed. 248 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:42,600 I think some of the interesting aspects can be emulated in the 249 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,680 other regions of the world too. So that's with respect to Asian. 250 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:51,160 So when it comes to Canada, so there was better integration of 251 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:56,440 this planning and controls. So they have specific, they're 252 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:01,600 quite focused on having proper planning controls. 253 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:06,120 However, for them, again, the ageing workforces the biggest 254 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,680 backdrop. Then with respect to United 255 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,680 States, what I found was like they're having the best tools in 256 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:16,720 the world. However, I think the weakness 257 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:21,800 exists in having proper foundational planning knowledge 258 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:26,160 or planning literacy skills that needs to be developed. 259 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:34,720 And also this is also again another issue, majority of the 260 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,160 workforce lineage, their family is again not following the same 261 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,760 trades part. However, in some of the 262 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:50,320 conversations with the various big technology leaders like 263 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:58,440 NVIDIA CEO is mentioning like in future the plumbers, the the 264 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:02,400 ground workforce people would be having the highest demand and 265 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,280 salaries, right? Probably because you have lesser 266 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,520 number of people who would do those kinds of jobs. 267 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:13,480 It cannot be replaced by any automation or AI systems, those 268 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,600 kinds of building on the ground kind of stuff. 269 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,680 It cannot be replaced by an AI or a robots or automation. 270 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,880 So the real project impacts if we don't have proper workforce 271 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:32,600 who is having proper skill set delays are the order of the 272 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,880 norm, cost overruns from the reactive decision making because 273 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,040 you don't have any proactive decisions which you can take 274 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,560 forward and then safety incidents caused by compressed 275 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,440 schedules. You have less time you put in 276 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:52,000 whatever that you have. But then for any product to have 277 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:56,800 a perfect realization, there needs to have they need to be 278 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,520 proper maturity time cycle if you compress it. 279 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:05,120 By bombarding with lots of resources will not yield at the 280 00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:08,560 last minute with the product that you want to with the 281 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,360 product or the deliverables that you want to bring into picture. 282 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:17,200 So at the at conclusion, I would say that the crisis isn't about 283 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,800 not having the workers, but it's about not having ready workers. 284 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,680 Yeah, that's. Super fascinating. 285 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:31,600 And I think a space where and I, I just want to call this out 286 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,800 because you highlighted it in the way that you outlined the 287 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:39,960 response to what I asked, which is AI is not going to be what is 288 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,000 going to drive construction in the future. 289 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,360 It will be an element or component of it. 290 00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:47,600 But to your point, there's still going to be the need for this 291 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,480 talent to exist where we are trying to build those skills 292 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:55,320 from the ground up. You tapped into the the concept 293 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,680 of trades women versus, you know, or trades people and, and 294 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,240 why that will be a critical, still play a critical role even 295 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,640 in the space where technology and everything is advancing in 296 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,360 construction. But I have to, I have to tap 297 00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:12,960 into this just because I think you and I have a shared interest 298 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,160 in the space, which is the diversity dimension of this 299 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,280 topic. You've obviously published 300 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,680 extensively on women in construction. 301 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,760 You've presented on inclusivity, creating an inclusive culture 302 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:30,080 and construction workplaces. So and my dissertation is also 303 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,640 on women and their sense of belonging in the industry. 304 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:40,480 So how does addressing diversity and inclusion help the crisis? 305 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,840 If you think it does help or help solve the crisis is the 306 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,080 first part of this and, and in what ways do you think it would? 307 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:52,280 If you are saying yes, it will. And then if it's not, then what 308 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,240 are those practical solutions that we can start to look at to 309 00:21:55,240 --> 00:22:00,120 start to bridge this gap? Well, for this question, I feel 310 00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:08,840 like especially in this era of dynamic changes or evolving 311 00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:15,840 changes that happens every now and then, it's a culmination of 312 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:20,960 having diverse set of. Team. 313 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:28,240 Members would literally add innovation in whatever tasks 314 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:35,360 they're put up to it, like having a diverse talent or the 315 00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:40,160 kind of diverse diversity would definitely bring in the 316 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:44,880 different perspectives so that different perspectives yields to 317 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,560 innovative dimension. So that could be in the process 318 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,560 or the development of a tool or the development of people. 319 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,160 It could be. So I feel that it's not the 320 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,800 diversity problem, it's it's a capacity problem. 321 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:03,320 Rather I would like payment. So we need to have a proper work 322 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,280 culture in the construction industry. 323 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,680 I think very slowly. What I understand is like for 324 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,960 instance, when I have entered into the construction industry 325 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:17,720 which was like way back 17 years ago, I was the only female 326 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,240 candidate who have been selected in the in that company for that 327 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,360 set of group. And you imagine very slowly 328 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:33,880 after after 15 years or so, I found that there is enhancement 329 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,760 of women getting into the construction rolls very slowly. 330 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:44,600 So there are few organizations that propose or try to be a 331 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,400 proponent for allowing women to enter into this field. 332 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,240 I feel that there are certain traits which I mean like if you 333 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,120 have read the book Men are from Mars, Mars. 334 00:23:55,440 --> 00:24:01,320 Women are from Venus, yes. Certain traits are quite 335 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,960 advantageous. I can say they are the key 336 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,880 levers for women to get into the project management roles. 337 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:15,440 Like women, I feel that they can juggle a lot of multiple things. 338 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:21,040 And, and I feel that this sort of a trait where they have 339 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,960 multifaceted perspectives that they need to look at and the 340 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,960 kind of coordination coordinator roles and the kind of visualized 341 00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:35,320 or the kind of digital roles is something like which has come 342 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,480 up, which has got an uptick, especially from the COVID time 343 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,000 onwards. Like it's not necessary that you 344 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:47,160 need to, you need, you need not just be in the project site and 345 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,440 the hardships to work or to get into the construction industry. 346 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:56,200 Rather, you have design kinds of rules, like with the advancement 347 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,120 of technological tools in the construction industry, like the 348 00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:02,520 building information modelling tools, planning tools. 349 00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:06,480 There have been plenty of remote options that have come in to 350 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:11,040 picture and with which women are now taking the advantage of 351 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:15,120 those kinds of roles which were not existent earlier. 352 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,760 I mean like a decade and a half, I can tell, especially in the in 353 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,920 the very. I think, I think a lot of people 354 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,600 have this, you know, I, I don't know if it's misconception is 355 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,920 the right word, but they are. So we tend to associate 356 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,720 construction with being out there with the hard hat and the 357 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,120 vest and the dirt and the big machinery and that sort of 358 00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:39,160 thing. So I love this insight into 359 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,560 construction is beyond that. And it really has, like you 360 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,520 said, created this space where if you want to be remote, but 361 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,560 also still in the industry, there's opportunities for you 362 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,560 there, men and women alike. So that's, that's great. 363 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,600 So. Especially I have written an 364 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,880 article on women digital leadership roles. 365 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,760 So there have been a situation where I mean the the situation 366 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:06,800 especially in 2022 onwards, there have been lots of roles 367 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:08,960 with respect to information management roles in the 368 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,880 construction industry. So many women pitched into it. 369 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,240 So nevertheless, I don't say that you shouldn't mention into 370 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,320 the project sites with hard heads. 371 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:20,360 You need to have a mix of both of them. 372 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,520 However, you cannot just base your judgement that a civil 373 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,360 engineer means just a person who just go goes to the project 374 00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:32,160 site. They face hardships, they face 375 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,240 stereotypism in the project sites. 376 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,640 They are being mocked. They are work. 377 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:43,280 They have lots of pressure. I mean like every role has got a 378 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,000 pressure. I feel there's no roll call that 379 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:53,440 has that is quite latent, lazy and quite complacent. 380 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,640 So challenge, there needs to be some sort of a pressure. 381 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,920 So I don't call it as a pressure, rather a kind of push 382 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,000 with which they can elevate themselves by learning new 383 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:06,440 things. So coming out of that 384 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,600 comfortable zone and getting into a new learning zone. 385 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:16,320 I mean every woman in the construction industry like 386 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,200 similar to the other carriers, they have to take it with the 387 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,760 right step and right stride. So having a good mentor, 388 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,720 mentorship and attending to attending or participating to 389 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,960 various women related construction conferences like 390 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:36,400 the WTS, you have North American women in construction group. 391 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:42,320 So getting involved in these kinds of various bodies, what 392 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:47,280 happens is you would have a kind of predictable pathways or 393 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:52,560 career road map you can set with interacting with the various 394 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:57,080 individuals, women who is helmed in the construction roles at top 395 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,040 level. You can you can see their lives, 396 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,240 you can read about their biographies and then you can 397 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,840 decide which would work for you, which will not work for you 398 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:12,560 because every woman has got their own context. 399 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:18,160 So you cannot copy from every individual to become alike. 400 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,960 Rather you can take some of the elements with which you can 401 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,600 curate your own profile out of it. 402 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:30,320 So if I have to tell my background, it so happened I, I 403 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,720 have worked, I've got an opportunity to work for diverse 404 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,960 kinds of projects like as I mentioned, water infrastructure, 405 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:45,920 rail, maritime, aviation. So I mean, like I feel that one, 406 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,640 I mean, every woman in the construction industry needs to 407 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:56,280 have some sort of a mentor or at least some sort of a guide who 408 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,480 would help them. Like earlier there weren't many, 409 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,280 but now you have got plenty of folks. 410 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,600 So you can, you can find them anywhere in the Internet. 411 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,800 You can just, if you just try to reach them out to 100 people, at 412 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,560 least ten of them would respond definitely. 413 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,480 And that's how you have to carve yourself. 414 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,800 So I feel that inclusion would help solve the crisis like 415 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:25,440 having having diverse teams would help in improving the 416 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:30,280 planning accuracy, having proper communication so that the risks 417 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,080 would be identified earlier. And as I mentioned, women would 418 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,200 excel in excellent interface coordination roles, risk 419 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:43,280 anticipation and stakeholder, stakeholder alignment, various 420 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,680 kinds of digital roles also. So it's a, it's a. 421 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,960 So these are some of the items or the aspects that they need to 422 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,440 look into. However, I was mentioning you 423 00:29:54,440 --> 00:30:00,040 right, like having the organisations slowly or 424 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:06,040 gradually they are imbibing women also into topmost roles or 425 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:11,040 the leadership roles. So this gives a kind of a kind 426 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:17,280 of a litmus test for them to plan properly and then get into 427 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:22,720 a, a kind of a career road map set along with the various 428 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,560 variables that they have with respect to family, education, 429 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:32,280 career, whatever it is, right. So I survived by becoming 430 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:38,120 technically undeniable, but the industry shouldn't require that 431 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,920 level of resilience just to stay. 432 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:48,480 So I feel that ignoring women is equal to ignoring 50 percentage 433 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,920 of the potential talent. Women are like quite resilient. 434 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:58,280 They have patience, they have kind of innovative mindset 435 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:03,120 juggling and having multifaceted kind of roles that they can take 436 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,200 into account. And that's where they have to 437 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,880 try to align their positives with the roles which require 438 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,400 these kinds of attributes. And that would be win, win 439 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:21,000 rather than just hitting for some other roles which are like 440 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,760 very difficult to attain with their current context. 441 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:29,960 Like for instance, aiming for a project manager level in the 442 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:34,840 beginning itself isn't a right. You need to take step by step, 443 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:41,080 acquire the skills and then pitch into the level which you 444 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:42,960 want to reach. So that's what I can say. 445 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,120 Yeah, beautifully. Said great guidance for those 446 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,960 that are interested or or even just curious about what that 447 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,960 pathway looks like. So Doctor Mala, I know you and I 448 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,920 could probably talk about this for for several hours on this on 449 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,040 this particular topic, but just to round out the conversation, I 450 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:06,000 want you to put your fortune teller hat on and let us know 451 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,480 what success would look like to you. 452 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,920 I usually ask this question saying 5 to 10 years, but the 453 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,640 reality is because things are evolving and changing so 454 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:20,160 dramatically, all quickly, let's say, what does success look like 455 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,320 in about three to five years from now? 456 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,120 If we get this right? If the things that you were 457 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,120 talking about, the solutions, the potential pathways, you 458 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,680 know, gender agnostic of all those things come together for 459 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,080 this industry, what does that look like to you? 460 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:41,680 Well, for the current level of professionals who are just 461 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,720 getting graduated or the fresh cohorts that would be coming 462 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:50,760 into picture, I would ideally suggest have a structured, have 463 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,840 a structured framework in the mindset, getting to know 464 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,440 awareness about the various construction management roles 465 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,200 that are there in the construction industry. 466 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,400 Getting to know like if you go to a construction project, 467 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,920 there's a project manager, planning engineer, subcontractor 468 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,520 like the contracts manager, risk manager, supply chain 469 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,960 management, quantity surveyor. Understand each of these roles 470 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:21,720 and then try to align which goal that they think that they're 471 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,280 going to be. They're going to give value 472 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:28,440 proposition both to themselves as well as to the organization. 473 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:34,160 And then try to pick in the mentor, perfect mentor from 474 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,320 their particular organization. If they are already joined in an 475 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,240 organization, if they're not joined, if they're just coming 476 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,080 out of the college still they can get into the LinkedIn, have 477 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,200 get into the various network communities and have a proper 478 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,920 mentorship. Being fixated and then industry 479 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,800 would definitely acknowledge for the efforts that you try to 480 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,360 bring in. When you have a mentor, they 481 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,400 would advise you what are the aspects that need they need to 482 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:10,199 get perfect in their roles in the future roles, whatever it is 483 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,280 like it could be a planner or it could be a contracts manager, it 484 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:20,159 could be APM, follow whatever they try to give it to you 485 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,159 invite them. So from 5 to 10 years, I mean 486 00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:27,560 like a kind of a succession plan they need to have in their mind 487 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:32,920 fixated because without a road map or without a destiny in 488 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:37,320 their mind where they want to be after five years, it's difficult 489 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:44,040 for them to navigate how they have to go for sudden certain 490 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:51,440 kinds of like for instance, if a cohort is getting out, they need 491 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,120 to understand what are some of the certifications that they 492 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:59,520 need to also take or give the exam so that they get the 493 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,120 competent skills. And then at an experience level, 494 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,160 what are the next goals that they need to have? 495 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,640 So it's always better to have a mentor. 496 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,920 And apart from this, they need to upkeep themselves with the 497 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,600 various trade magazines and journals about the latest trends 498 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,520 that are happening in the construction industry. 499 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,560 Like for instance, AI is everywhere. 500 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,920 You sleep, you get up, you sleep, you still have this AI. 501 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:31,560 How it's trying to revolutionize the entire construction 502 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,800 landscape now. So how if that particular 503 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,240 entity, the particular professional wants to have 504 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,320 planning as planner as a strategic role that they want to 505 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:49,720 go for, They have to learn all the tools pertaining to the 506 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:56,320 planning and how certain emerging tools which has AI has 507 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:01,600 been enabled into them, how it's being utilized, those those sort 508 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,840 of learnings that they have to do self learning. 509 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:08,520 So there are various platforms like the Coursera, Edx, Udemy 510 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,960 which they can thrive upon, get a feel about that particular 511 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,760 learning of the tool or it could be a new subject and then they 512 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,240 have to align their role with the industry. 513 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,240 So, education getting aligned with the industry is what the 514 00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:29,000 reality they needs to and they have to keep in mind. 515 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,600 So from my point of view like the planning or the scheduling, 516 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,280 every generation has got their own tools which has been evolved 517 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:43,200 over a period of time. So learning daily or having a 518 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,800 mindset of growth, growth mindset, growth mindset doesn't 519 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,320 stay complacent. OK, I completed my doctoral 520 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:52,960 degree, so I'm going to be complacent. 521 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:59,520 No, I cannot. So I have to evolve with the 522 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,720 existing emerging technology. So the generation also needs to 523 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,520 imbibe the technologies. However, they need to be strong 524 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,160 in their fundamentals of their domain knowledge. 525 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:17,040 So domain knowledge still matters because a tool with a 526 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,440 fool. A fool who is using a tool will 527 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,040 still be a fool if they don't know how. 528 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,880 To use it, it's not. Wise enough to utilize it. 529 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:31,040 So even the AI tools or the large language models that many 530 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:37,160 of them use that if you give a proper prompt or a question, 531 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:42,200 then only it would give you the value proposed outcome that you 532 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,240 would expect it. But if you give a question which 533 00:37:45,240 --> 00:37:50,120 is like random, which has got no sort of follow up, you don't get 534 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:55,880 a structured or a or a response that is having much essence to 535 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,920 be bought out of it. So apart from that, I also would 536 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:07,440 would think that systemic changes are necessary especially 537 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,600 having industry academia partnership standardising some 538 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,240 of the curriculum which is industry ready aspects like the 539 00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:17,840 digital construction industry like the building information, 540 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,560 modelling or planning related standardised curriculum. 541 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:29,240 And also they need to have recognition of leadership roles. 542 00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:33,520 Means doesn't mean just a project manager as a leader who 543 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:38,080 have project controls roles also being considered as project 544 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,640 leadership roles. So getting to know these kinds 545 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,360 of awareness is very much important because many of the 546 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:49,560 freshers that I observe, they come and ask me, ma'am, how long 547 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,680 does it take for me to become a project manager? 548 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:53,640 Can I become with one year experience, two years 549 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,040 experience? It's not the years of experience 550 00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:00,040 that need that you need to account in mind, but you need to 551 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,440 have the skill sets being developed right. 552 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,360 So if a. Particular skill set requires 553 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:11,200 10,000 hours. You cannot shorten it and get it 554 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,880 get those skill sets in just 500 hours. 555 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,640 You. Have to realize. 556 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,920 That everything cannot be instant and everything cannot be 557 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,080 shortcut. So that sort of patience, 558 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:30,440 resilience, my one of my colleague mentioned, do not 559 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:37,360 consider fail, FAIL if you know the word fail, right, Yes, AIL 560 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,160 you would consider the fail as failure, consider it as first 561 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,200 attempt in learning. Oh, very. 562 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:48,560 Nice, so that. Makes me think like every there 563 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,720 need to be some sort of effort driven, driven efforts needs to 564 00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:57,200 be put into and if they fail, that's a kind of a new learning 565 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,880 that they have learnt which is very much essential for them to 566 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:03,920 move forward. That gives them a kind of a 567 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,880 confidence also, OK, I've learnt something out of it. 568 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,880 So that's sort of it. So then I also would advise them 569 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,840 to get into involvement of doing volunteership like for the 570 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,320 Project Management Institute ASEWTS. 571 00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:24,000 So it's not just doing a selfless. 572 00:40:24,720 --> 00:40:28,000 Activity in the kind in the roles like teaching, being as a 573 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:32,760 speaker, sharing your knowledge or doing a group or team 574 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,160 activity, you're going to learn and meet many amazing 575 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:43,120 individuals which you would not get if you are just meeting the 576 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:47,720 known persons in your group. So it's always said like even 577 00:40:47,720 --> 00:40:52,600 me, my, myself, many of my breakthroughs happened through 578 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:57,560 these sorts of networking. So my I'm telling openly, I 579 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:02,880 fixated my doctoral thesis topic from attending by attending one 580 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:08,760 of the AC webinar. I got my first job in North 581 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,480 America by doing the networking in PMI. 582 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,960 So most of the breakthroughs in one's carrier doesn't happen 583 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,800 through known contacts. It happens through strangers. 584 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:25,360 So whatever, whatever work that one performs and gets networked, 585 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:31,880 try to show or give a pitch of your work in a networking group 586 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,360 of unknown individuals. That's where your potential 587 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:38,520 brings into picture. So speaking, teaching, knowledge 588 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:40,720 sharing and doing these volunteering activities would 589 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:46,240 always add value not just to an individual's self satisfaction, 590 00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:48,720 but through your through their career. 591 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,040 And the other things is like they can just attend the 592 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:58,120 conferences, workshops every time getting to know what 593 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,320 exactly they wanted to be. They they have to be always on 594 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,560 tools and they have to go on war footing basis whenever an 595 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,120 opportunity comes. So this is my take I mean. 596 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,800 Absolutely. Just a well-rounded perspective 597 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:17,120 on how we can potentially fill this gap, how the future might 598 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:20,640 look for us if, if we can do all of the things that early, some 599 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,480 of the things that Doctor Molla has has put out there in terms 600 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,600 of creating your pathway into the space, Doctor Molla, that 601 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,520 will do it for our conversation today. 602 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,080 But if folks want to continue the conversation, can they 603 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:34,960 connect with you anywhere? Yes. 604 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:41,240 Definitely, I would be happy if if I can share my LinkedIn and 605 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,320 my mail ID, personal mail ID also, I would be sharing it with 606 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,960 you and I would be I would appreciate if you can share with 607 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,440 them in case if they want to connect with me. 608 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,960 I'm, I'm always available on LinkedIn and I always feel that 609 00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:00,080 if a woman in construction industry in the, in the US 610 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,920 construction industry, if I specifically speak, there are a 611 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:08,920 lot of opportunities for them to get from the ground level to the 612 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,200 top level. If they channelize through 613 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:17,440 proper networking, having the right mentor, having the right 614 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,320 tools. So this generation is really 615 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:25,280 blessed to have all these which we didn't have it during our 616 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:29,360 formative years. Thank you to you for for being 617 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:33,520 part of laying that groundwork in terms of having those 618 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,360 opportunities and those those channels to be able to come into 619 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,200 this space. So again, very thankful for your 620 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:41,160 time. Doctor Mullah. 621 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,680 I will make sure all your connection points are within the 622 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,800 post of this podcast. For those listening. 623 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,160 If you're listening to this episode and you love it, let us 624 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:51,800 know. Leave us a comment. 625 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,000 Subscribe to the podcast for this episode and future 626 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:56,960 episodes. Doctor Mullah and I have been 627 00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,080 chatting about future plans to make this more of a series than 628 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,600 just a one, one part episode. So I'm super excited for that as 629 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:05,880 well. So you you folks can also follow 630 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:09,200 me on LinkedIn. I'll make sure that that is also 631 00:44:09,240 --> 00:44:13,200 in the in the podcast notes. And thank you so much for your 632 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,080 time, Doctor Mala, and thank you to those that have joined us to 633 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:20,000 listen to this episode. Until next time, take care.