Welcome to the Everyday PM Podcast, the podcast where we
discuss project management principles for your everyday
life. My name is Anne Kiempia, I am a
project manager, I'm an operations leader, and I am also
the host and founder of The Everyday PM.
I am so excited to welcome our very special guest, Doctor Mala,
who is here to talk about the US construction workforce crisis
building skills from the ground up.
Now, Doctor Mala, you have a ton of accolades behind you.
You're currently the senior project management professional.
You're also a PMI global construction ambassador, you've
worked on infrastructure programs that are in in the
excess of 47 billion plus dollars.
I mean, you just have it all and you've spent a majority of your
career in the construction project management space.
So I'm so honoured and excited to have you on the podcast to
share your insights about this world.
For those who have not met you yet, please take a brief moment
to introduce yourself to our audience.
Thank you so much, Ann. And I really feel privileged to
having got an opportunity to discuss about the kind of
current status of the construction industry and what
sort of issues, challenges or pain points that are existent
and how the construction workforce in the US is having a
sort of major backlog with respect to skills and the
workforce. And even at the professional
level, there's like, you know, of various skill sets that needs
to be developed in a very meteoric phase.
Otherwise, I think there would be a big challenging issues with
respect to constructing mega projects, which I would like to
discuss in the following conversations.
And I thank also an everyday PM podcast for trying to give my
reflective thoughts on the various sorts of construction
related day-to-day issues or problems that exist.
So to begin with, I'm a senior construction project management
professional. So it's been like more than 17
years I have been in the construction landscape
navigating towards the various ebbs and flows of various
regions that I have worked for. I worked in the Asian country
like India and then I moved to Canada where I worked for large
transit or the mega projects like the Ontario Line hood
Ontario as well as EV battery manufacturing plants which I got
an opportunity to expose have a different geographical exposure
with respect to my brought up which which was in the other
country. And then now I have been playing
a pivotal role in the current US construction industry,
especially in the project management with respect to
controlling the projects, project controls rules for the
various projects that are there in the US construction industry.
So currently I'm playing one of the key role in the project
management information systems solutions development for
planning, scheduling and risk management systems for Port of
Oakland. And apart from that, I have got
work experience spanning rail. From the rail or the transit
projects to aviation, maritime, commercial real estate, water,
industrial and life sciences. I was privileged to have a taste
of the different or the diverse infrastructure programs and
apart from this, majority of my career has been revolved around
the project control stones. So what's project control?
It's more of like controlling the time schedule and scope of
any project or a program it could be.
So apart from that, I've been actively volunteering and I've
been recently nominated like as you mentioned for the PMI Global
Construction Ambassador in the North American segment, which is
where I'm trying to focus on the various digital construction
management initiatives that needs to be brought into and the
kind of efficient processes and being more specifically tool
agnostic. Rather concentrating more on the
domain of the various knowledge domain expertise rather than
just being tool specific or tool is just being an enabler, but it
shouldn't be the main basic core element with which they can work
on. And apart from that, I'm also
playing a key role as a Co vice president for AAC New Jersey
section which is the association of advancement in cost
engineering. And also I work as a project
manager for professional development PMI Biztalk series.
Apart from that, I have certain competency skills with respect
to PMP lead green associate lead 6 Sigma black belt.
So over a period of time, I have got a kind of notion that
digitalization was missing in the construction industry.
And that's when I pivoted towards pursuing my doctoral
degree and the and pursued my doctoral studies and completed
it in 2024. And I've been continuously
publishing research articles may on in the major publications
such as international peer reviewed journals from American
Society of Civil Engineers, Emerald Publications, Taylor and
Francis, and apart from that book chapters.
And I'm and I'm an active proponent of women in
construction industry. So I wanted to make many of the
women peers in the construction industry to understand that
construction is not just a kind of a male dominated carrier.
Every woman can have their foothold.
It's like the resilience, the commitment and the kind of clear
vision that they need to have fixated in their mind rather
than just going with the stereotype kind of outlook.
They have been passed out through their family members or
so. So that's a that's a brief thing
about myself. Yeah, absolutely.
And, and I'm so grateful for the time that you have to just spend
some time with our audience today to talk about this
critical issue around, you know, the construction workforce
crisis and what the skill gaps could be within the space.
This is essentially how Doctor Mulla and I have connected.
So for those that are listening, thankful for PMI connecting us
because they saw the work that Doctor Mulla has described she's
been doing across her span of her career.
And I just published my dissertation on sense of
belonging of women in construction.
And so we ultimately found synergy and, and, and the shared
purpose here. And so we're super excited to
bring this topic to the everyday PM podcast audience for that
reason. So let's just dive in because
Doctor Malla, based on the, you know, mega projects that you
worked on, the infrastructure programs that you've worked on,
obviously from your frontline experience being within the
construction space, what is it the US construction workforce
crisis actually look like on the ground?
And what are you seeing that keeps you up at night?
Well, there is not a single problem or a pain point that is
causing the construction workforce crisis.
So on the ground, the US construction force looks like as
if it's. It doesn't look like quite
abstract. It more looks like schedules
that I technically work on paper, but then when it comes to
the execution, it fails. So why is that?
Because like for instance, some of the mega projects that I
worked like in the Ontario Line and various sorts of projects in
the Port of Oakland. Also, currently it's not just
about the headcount that matters, but it's the capability
of the resources that are also present is also of paramount
importance. OK, so here the critical roles
that needs to be played are actually missed for making sure
that the construction projects to be successful.
Like for instance, if we look at the aspect of experienced
planners or the schedulers per SE, there is lacuna of planners
and schedulers who understand the construction logic, risk and
constructibility. They are more experts in using a
particular tool, but they haven't got that knack of
understanding the ground realities.
So if you build something on the system or a paper, it needs to
translate into the ground reality.
That's what it's missing. So these the critical roles like
the experienced planners are a big bottleneck.
Earlier majority of the planners, their due diligence
was to go to the project sites, visualize the entire progress
that's happening in the project sites and then come back and try
to make inputs to their schedules in the software.
And that's how they try to check whether the schedule and the on
ground reality matches. So nowadays that sort of
expertise is something which is missing in majority of the
projects. So this is with the professional
level I'm trying to mention. Like when it comes to
supervisors, the current supervisors who are also
graduating and getting into those rules should be in a
position to translate the schedule.
So, So what is the schedule like for the novice people?
Like you have a construction schedule which is having a
particular project with many activities with start and finish
dates and what's the critical part?
All these sorts of information will be there.
So there is lack of supervisors who can translate these
schedules into daily work plans. So this sort of another issue is
there. So because of this, they're
reeling under the rework due to poor coordination.
And many of the times the long lead items like for instance if
you take the transit projects, the sort of systems that needs
to come into picture, all these kinds of long lead items are
being misunderstood. And also they also have to wait
for crews until their upstream planning is being meticulously
done. So upstream planning is
something which is getting failed because the crews are
waiting for this information. So how can we have the skill
gap? So I was trying to mention about
the skill gaps and now there is other bigger issue that is the
labour shortage. A labour shortage would slow the
projects. However the skills which are I
mean like the skill gaps would try to break the projects.
So you require workforce who is having the skills and you
require the workforce who actually builds the the real
groundwork which they would be performing.
So workers exist, but then many of them cannot translate or read
a critical path method schedule. So the professionals who work in
the project site like the supervisors or the OR the
resident engineers or in charges needs to translate them.
This is what they have to build it.
So that's missing and very few understand interface risk.
So construction is not a single siloed kind of only a civil
engineers, only Mechanical Engineers.
It's not a silos oriented engineers who work so civil,
mechanical, electrical, plumbing and you have various sorts of
other discipline departments that you need to connect with.
So this sort of interface risk and float ownership and the kind
of recovery plan that they have to make in case if they miss the
deadline or the delays is also missing.
So because of this, as a result, you have this artificial
acceleration and unsafe stacking of trades.
So you have less time and you have to complete the work.
So you bring in at a sudden numerous number of workforce to
try to to accomplish with a very less amount of time.
So unsafe incidences happen and that's again a kind of unsafe
stacking of trades that happened.
And then after all this, you have legal disputes that happens
and then finally claims the various sorts of legal disputes
happen across various parties with respect to contractor owner
and the other sub consultants and consultants.
So this is how it looks like. So what I can tell is the crisis
is not just about not having workers, but it's about not
having ready skilled workers. Yeah.
The way you've compartmentalized
that makes a lot of sense because the contents contacts
you provided is it's not just a pipeline issue, right?
We're getting talent in. It's just there's also this
other gap that exists around the skills.
So I'm curious in terms of how you've seen that compared to,
because construction is global and obviously you carry such a
wealth of experience, not just we're talking about US right
now, but obviously you've done a lot of work in Canada and around
the world. How does that compare to what
you've seen globally? Yeah.
Well, there are multiple factors that needs to be looked into.
So with respect to the Asian countries which I worked, there
was a strong technical depth that's involved and also the
execution was quite heavy. However, there was a kind of
less adoption of technology and what I found was there was more
fatigue in the workers that they've been working.
And very slowly, what I imagine is a sense of pride in their
workmanship is being missed. Like for instance, I'll tell you
a group of workers who have been, I mean, like you expect if
I'm an, if my father is an engineer, you expect your
daughter, I mean, like you, you come from a breed of doctors or
engineers. You expect your lineage to also
to follow the same thing. But in the construction force,
it's not just about the construction force at the trades
level. It's, it's so happening that
their children are taking up some other professions.
So this ageing workforce further their lineage are not continuing
in the trades, they're going to some other domain.
So that is an issue with the Asian countries that I work
with. It's happening like the lineage
is not being continued and they have a kind of concentrated
pockets of workforce that's existing in particular regions.
So when those regional workforce are absent, it's difficult for
the entire project to go in a in a stalled manner.
So, so the kinds of labour laws and are like quite good over
there. However, they do not have that
kind of foundational knowledge literacy.
Very slowly they are being developed.
I think some of the interesting aspects can be emulated in the
other regions of the world too. So that's with respect to Asian.
So when it comes to Canada, so there was better integration of
this planning and controls. So they have specific, they're
quite focused on having proper planning controls.
However, for them, again, the ageing workforces the biggest
backdrop. Then with respect to United
States, what I found was like they're having the best tools in
the world. However, I think the weakness
exists in having proper foundational planning knowledge
or planning literacy skills that needs to be developed.
And also this is also again another issue, majority of the
workforce lineage, their family is again not following the same
trades part. However, in some of the
conversations with the various big technology leaders like
NVIDIA CEO is mentioning like in future the plumbers, the the
ground workforce people would be having the highest demand and
salaries, right? Probably because you have lesser
number of people who would do those kinds of jobs.
It cannot be replaced by any automation or AI systems, those
kinds of building on the ground kind of stuff.
It cannot be replaced by an AI or a robots or automation.
So the real project impacts if we don't have proper workforce
who is having proper skill set delays are the order of the
norm, cost overruns from the reactive decision making because
you don't have any proactive decisions which you can take
forward and then safety incidents caused by compressed
schedules. You have less time you put in
whatever that you have. But then for any product to have
a perfect realization, there needs to have they need to be
proper maturity time cycle if you compress it.
By bombarding with lots of resources will not yield at the
last minute with the product that you want to with the
product or the deliverables that you want to bring into picture.
So at the at conclusion, I would say that the crisis isn't about
not having the workers, but it's about not having ready workers.
Yeah, that's. Super fascinating.
And I think a space where and I, I just want to call this out
because you highlighted it in the way that you outlined the
response to what I asked, which is AI is not going to be what is
going to drive construction in the future.
It will be an element or component of it.
But to your point, there's still going to be the need for this
talent to exist where we are trying to build those skills
from the ground up. You tapped into the the concept
of trades women versus, you know, or trades people and, and
why that will be a critical, still play a critical role even
in the space where technology and everything is advancing in
construction. But I have to, I have to tap
into this just because I think you and I have a shared interest
in the space, which is the diversity dimension of this
topic. You've obviously published
extensively on women in construction.
You've presented on inclusivity, creating an inclusive culture
and construction workplaces. So and my dissertation is also
on women and their sense of belonging in the industry.
So how does addressing diversity and inclusion help the crisis?
If you think it does help or help solve the crisis is the
first part of this and, and in what ways do you think it would?
If you are saying yes, it will. And then if it's not, then what
are those practical solutions that we can start to look at to
start to bridge this gap? Well, for this question, I feel
like especially in this era of dynamic changes or evolving
changes that happens every now and then, it's a culmination of
having diverse set of. Team.
Members would literally add innovation in whatever tasks
they're put up to it, like having a diverse talent or the
kind of diverse diversity would definitely bring in the
different perspectives so that different perspectives yields to
innovative dimension. So that could be in the process
or the development of a tool or the development of people.
It could be. So I feel that it's not the
diversity problem, it's it's a capacity problem.
Rather I would like payment. So we need to have a proper work
culture in the construction industry.
I think very slowly. What I understand is like for
instance, when I have entered into the construction industry
which was like way back 17 years ago, I was the only female
candidate who have been selected in the in that company for that
set of group. And you imagine very slowly
after after 15 years or so, I found that there is enhancement
of women getting into the construction rolls very slowly.
So there are few organizations that propose or try to be a
proponent for allowing women to enter into this field.
I feel that there are certain traits which I mean like if you
have read the book Men are from Mars, Mars.
Women are from Venus, yes. Certain traits are quite
advantageous. I can say they are the key
levers for women to get into the project management roles.
Like women, I feel that they can juggle a lot of multiple things.
And, and I feel that this sort of a trait where they have
multifaceted perspectives that they need to look at and the
kind of coordination coordinator roles and the kind of visualized
or the kind of digital roles is something like which has come
up, which has got an uptick, especially from the COVID time
onwards. Like it's not necessary that you
need to, you need, you need not just be in the project site and
the hardships to work or to get into the construction industry.
Rather, you have design kinds of rules, like with the advancement
of technological tools in the construction industry, like the
building information modelling tools, planning tools.
There have been plenty of remote options that have come in to
picture and with which women are now taking the advantage of
those kinds of roles which were not existent earlier.
I mean like a decade and a half, I can tell, especially in the in
the very. I think, I think a lot of people
have this, you know, I, I don't know if it's misconception is
the right word, but they are. So we tend to associate
construction with being out there with the hard hat and the
vest and the dirt and the big machinery and that sort of
thing. So I love this insight into
construction is beyond that. And it really has, like you
said, created this space where if you want to be remote, but
also still in the industry, there's opportunities for you
there, men and women alike. So that's, that's great.
So. Especially I have written an
article on women digital leadership roles.
So there have been a situation where I mean the the situation
especially in 2022 onwards, there have been lots of roles
with respect to information management roles in the
construction industry. So many women pitched into it.
So nevertheless, I don't say that you shouldn't mention into
the project sites with hard heads.
You need to have a mix of both of them.
However, you cannot just base your judgement that a civil
engineer means just a person who just go goes to the project
site. They face hardships, they face
stereotypism in the project sites.
They are being mocked. They are work.
They have lots of pressure. I mean like every role has got a
pressure. I feel there's no roll call that
has that is quite latent, lazy and quite complacent.
So challenge, there needs to be some sort of a pressure.
So I don't call it as a pressure, rather a kind of push
with which they can elevate themselves by learning new
things. So coming out of that
comfortable zone and getting into a new learning zone.
I mean every woman in the construction industry like
similar to the other carriers, they have to take it with the
right step and right stride. So having a good mentor,
mentorship and attending to attending or participating to
various women related construction conferences like
the WTS, you have North American women in construction group.
So getting involved in these kinds of various bodies, what
happens is you would have a kind of predictable pathways or
career road map you can set with interacting with the various
individuals, women who is helmed in the construction roles at top
level. You can you can see their lives,
you can read about their biographies and then you can
decide which would work for you, which will not work for you
because every woman has got their own context.
So you cannot copy from every individual to become alike.
Rather you can take some of the elements with which you can
curate your own profile out of it.
So if I have to tell my background, it so happened I, I
have worked, I've got an opportunity to work for diverse
kinds of projects like as I mentioned, water infrastructure,
rail, maritime, aviation. So I mean, like I feel that one,
I mean, every woman in the construction industry needs to
have some sort of a mentor or at least some sort of a guide who
would help them. Like earlier there weren't many,
but now you have got plenty of folks.
So you can, you can find them anywhere in the Internet.
You can just, if you just try to reach them out to 100 people, at
least ten of them would respond definitely.
And that's how you have to carve yourself.
So I feel that inclusion would help solve the crisis like
having having diverse teams would help in improving the
planning accuracy, having proper communication so that the risks
would be identified earlier. And as I mentioned, women would
excel in excellent interface coordination roles, risk
anticipation and stakeholder, stakeholder alignment, various
kinds of digital roles also. So it's a, it's a.
So these are some of the items or the aspects that they need to
look into. However, I was mentioning you
right, like having the organisations slowly or
gradually they are imbibing women also into topmost roles or
the leadership roles. So this gives a kind of a kind
of a litmus test for them to plan properly and then get into
a, a kind of a career road map set along with the various
variables that they have with respect to family, education,
career, whatever it is, right. So I survived by becoming
technically undeniable, but the industry shouldn't require that
level of resilience just to stay.
So I feel that ignoring women is equal to ignoring 50 percentage
of the potential talent. Women are like quite resilient.
They have patience, they have kind of innovative mindset
juggling and having multifaceted kind of roles that they can take
into account. And that's where they have to
try to align their positives with the roles which require
these kinds of attributes. And that would be win, win
rather than just hitting for some other roles which are like
very difficult to attain with their current context.
Like for instance, aiming for a project manager level in the
beginning itself isn't a right. You need to take step by step,
acquire the skills and then pitch into the level which you
want to reach. So that's what I can say.
Yeah, beautifully. Said great guidance for those
that are interested or or even just curious about what that
pathway looks like. So Doctor Mala, I know you and I
could probably talk about this for for several hours on this on
this particular topic, but just to round out the conversation, I
want you to put your fortune teller hat on and let us know
what success would look like to you.
I usually ask this question saying 5 to 10 years, but the
reality is because things are evolving and changing so
dramatically, all quickly, let's say, what does success look like
in about three to five years from now?
If we get this right? If the things that you were
talking about, the solutions, the potential pathways, you
know, gender agnostic of all those things come together for
this industry, what does that look like to you?
Well, for the current level of professionals who are just
getting graduated or the fresh cohorts that would be coming
into picture, I would ideally suggest have a structured, have
a structured framework in the mindset, getting to know
awareness about the various construction management roles
that are there in the construction industry.
Getting to know like if you go to a construction project,
there's a project manager, planning engineer, subcontractor
like the contracts manager, risk manager, supply chain
management, quantity surveyor. Understand each of these roles
and then try to align which goal that they think that they're
going to be. They're going to give value
proposition both to themselves as well as to the organization.
And then try to pick in the mentor, perfect mentor from
their particular organization. If they are already joined in an
organization, if they're not joined, if they're just coming
out of the college still they can get into the LinkedIn, have
get into the various network communities and have a proper
mentorship. Being fixated and then industry
would definitely acknowledge for the efforts that you try to
bring in. When you have a mentor, they
would advise you what are the aspects that need they need to
get perfect in their roles in the future roles, whatever it is
like it could be a planner or it could be a contracts manager, it
could be APM, follow whatever they try to give it to you
invite them. So from 5 to 10 years, I mean
like a kind of a succession plan they need to have in their mind
fixated because without a road map or without a destiny in
their mind where they want to be after five years, it's difficult
for them to navigate how they have to go for sudden certain
kinds of like for instance, if a cohort is getting out, they need
to understand what are some of the certifications that they
need to also take or give the exam so that they get the
competent skills. And then at an experience level,
what are the next goals that they need to have?
So it's always better to have a mentor.
And apart from this, they need to upkeep themselves with the
various trade magazines and journals about the latest trends
that are happening in the construction industry.
Like for instance, AI is everywhere.
You sleep, you get up, you sleep, you still have this AI.
How it's trying to revolutionize the entire construction
landscape now. So how if that particular
entity, the particular professional wants to have
planning as planner as a strategic role that they want to
go for, They have to learn all the tools pertaining to the
planning and how certain emerging tools which has AI has
been enabled into them, how it's being utilized, those those sort
of learnings that they have to do self learning.
So there are various platforms like the Coursera, Edx, Udemy
which they can thrive upon, get a feel about that particular
learning of the tool or it could be a new subject and then they
have to align their role with the industry.
So, education getting aligned with the industry is what the
reality they needs to and they have to keep in mind.
So from my point of view like the planning or the scheduling,
every generation has got their own tools which has been evolved
over a period of time. So learning daily or having a
mindset of growth, growth mindset, growth mindset doesn't
stay complacent. OK, I completed my doctoral
degree, so I'm going to be complacent.
No, I cannot. So I have to evolve with the
existing emerging technology. So the generation also needs to
imbibe the technologies. However, they need to be strong
in their fundamentals of their domain knowledge.
So domain knowledge still matters because a tool with a
fool. A fool who is using a tool will
still be a fool if they don't know how.
To use it, it's not. Wise enough to utilize it.
So even the AI tools or the large language models that many
of them use that if you give a proper prompt or a question,
then only it would give you the value proposed outcome that you
would expect it. But if you give a question which
is like random, which has got no sort of follow up, you don't get
a structured or a or a response that is having much essence to
be bought out of it. So apart from that, I also would
would think that systemic changes are necessary especially
having industry academia partnership standardising some
of the curriculum which is industry ready aspects like the
digital construction industry like the building information,
modelling or planning related standardised curriculum.
And also they need to have recognition of leadership roles.
Means doesn't mean just a project manager as a leader who
have project controls roles also being considered as project
leadership roles. So getting to know these kinds
of awareness is very much important because many of the
freshers that I observe, they come and ask me, ma'am, how long
does it take for me to become a project manager?
Can I become with one year experience, two years
experience? It's not the years of experience
that need that you need to account in mind, but you need to
have the skill sets being developed right.
So if a. Particular skill set requires
10,000 hours. You cannot shorten it and get it
get those skill sets in just 500 hours.
You. Have to realize.
That everything cannot be instant and everything cannot be
shortcut. So that sort of patience,
resilience, my one of my colleague mentioned, do not
consider fail, FAIL if you know the word fail, right, Yes, AIL
you would consider the fail as failure, consider it as first
attempt in learning. Oh, very.
Nice, so that. Makes me think like every there
need to be some sort of effort driven, driven efforts needs to
be put into and if they fail, that's a kind of a new learning
that they have learnt which is very much essential for them to
move forward. That gives them a kind of a
confidence also, OK, I've learnt something out of it.
So that's sort of it. So then I also would advise them
to get into involvement of doing volunteership like for the
Project Management Institute ASEWTS.
So it's not just doing a selfless.
Activity in the kind in the roles like teaching, being as a
speaker, sharing your knowledge or doing a group or team
activity, you're going to learn and meet many amazing
individuals which you would not get if you are just meeting the
known persons in your group. So it's always said like even
me, my, myself, many of my breakthroughs happened through
these sorts of networking. So my I'm telling openly, I
fixated my doctoral thesis topic from attending by attending one
of the AC webinar. I got my first job in North
America by doing the networking in PMI.
So most of the breakthroughs in one's carrier doesn't happen
through known contacts. It happens through strangers.
So whatever, whatever work that one performs and gets networked,
try to show or give a pitch of your work in a networking group
of unknown individuals. That's where your potential
brings into picture. So speaking, teaching, knowledge
sharing and doing these volunteering activities would
always add value not just to an individual's self satisfaction,
but through your through their career.
And the other things is like they can just attend the
conferences, workshops every time getting to know what
exactly they wanted to be. They they have to be always on
tools and they have to go on war footing basis whenever an
opportunity comes. So this is my take I mean.
Absolutely. Just a well-rounded perspective
on how we can potentially fill this gap, how the future might
look for us if, if we can do all of the things that early, some
of the things that Doctor Molla has has put out there in terms
of creating your pathway into the space, Doctor Molla, that
will do it for our conversation today.
But if folks want to continue the conversation, can they
connect with you anywhere? Yes.
Definitely, I would be happy if if I can share my LinkedIn and
my mail ID, personal mail ID also, I would be sharing it with
you and I would be I would appreciate if you can share with
them in case if they want to connect with me.
I'm, I'm always available on LinkedIn and I always feel that
if a woman in construction industry in the, in the US
construction industry, if I specifically speak, there are a
lot of opportunities for them to get from the ground level to the
top level. If they channelize through
proper networking, having the right mentor, having the right
tools. So this generation is really
blessed to have all these which we didn't have it during our
formative years. Thank you to you for for being
part of laying that groundwork in terms of having those
opportunities and those those channels to be able to come into
this space. So again, very thankful for your
time. Doctor Mullah.
I will make sure all your connection points are within the
post of this podcast. For those listening.
If you're listening to this episode and you love it, let us
know. Leave us a comment.
Subscribe to the podcast for this episode and future
episodes. Doctor Mullah and I have been
chatting about future plans to make this more of a series than
just a one, one part episode. So I'm super excited for that as
well. So you you folks can also follow
me on LinkedIn. I'll make sure that that is also
in the in the podcast notes. And thank you so much for your
time, Doctor Mala, and thank you to those that have joined us to
listen to this episode. Until next time, take care.