1 00:00:10,120 --> 00:00:13,080 Welcome to the Everyday PM Podcast, the podcast where we 2 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,920 discuss project management principles for your everyday 3 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,000 life. My name is Anne Campia. 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,960 I'm a certified project manager. I currently work as the Vice 5 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,480 President of Project Management Operations for Trusense 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:26,560 Marketing. I'm also the host of the 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,200 everyday PM and I'm excited to welcome our very special guest, 8 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,840 Lata Hamilton, who is joining us from somewhere that is not the 9 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:39,080 USI know that because we vary in time zones, but we are here to 10 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,640 talk about change management. Now we're going to talk about 11 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,640 engaging hearts and minds in project change using Neuro 12 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:51,880 Linguistic Programming. But lotta for those who have not 13 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,960 met you yet or have seen you on LinkedIn or online, please take 14 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,200 a brief moment to introduce yourself to our audience. 15 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,680 Thanks so much, Anne. So yes, my name is Lata Hamilton 16 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,280 and I am a change leadership and confidence expert. 17 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,040 Where I am actually located is Sydney, Australia. 18 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,760 So often I'm sort of like ahead, like a like a day ahead, like 19 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,760 living in the future to my host, which I am for you today. 20 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,640 And yeah, it's super sunny here. It's kind of like, I don't know, 21 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,120 we're going into spring, so the weather's really changing and. 22 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,880 It's really beautiful. Yeah, it's really nice. 23 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:30,720 And I guess for me, like, you know, I really love working in 24 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,040 change management. I love sharing more about change 25 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,800 management. I've worked on many, many, many 26 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,640 different types of changes. I've worked on changes that have 27 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,680 impacted over 100,000 people, operating model changes that 28 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,680 have impacted thousands of roles, digital transformation 29 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,400 that's changing the way that we work, global culture change. 30 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:49,920 I just recently did like an office refurbishment. 31 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,320 Like so many different types of change. 32 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,000 So the variety really kind of like lights me up. 33 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,440 And I really love helping helping women carve their own 34 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:01,800 paths for change in their career, leadership and life. 35 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:03,320 I love that. Thank you. 36 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,040 Thank you so much for that introduction. 37 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,560 And Lotta, I know that you've worked on a lot of 38 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,440 transformations. As you had mentioned, hundreds 39 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,120 of thousands of people have been impacted by the change that 40 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,640 you've been helped, helped shepherd through. 41 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,520 You're also the author of pioneer your career change, as 42 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:22,400 well as the founder of passion Pioneers. 43 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,080 So change management is just all around you. 44 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,920 And I think the way I described it when I, when you had 45 00:02:27,920 --> 00:02:30,000 introduced yourself to me was you're the change management 46 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,520 powerhouse in my opinion. But I think for those of us that 47 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,640 are listening and, and primary audience of, of this podcast as 48 00:02:36,640 --> 00:02:39,400 project managers, but we also have just career professionals 49 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,520 as well. And so for those that aren't 50 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,960 familiar with change management or change managers, or maybe 51 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,520 they're called transformational leaders or something of that 52 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,840 sort, what's the difference? How would you define a project 53 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:56,320 manager versus a change manager? Yeah, it's such a great question 54 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,800 and I think it actually really does matter where you are in the 55 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,520 world and it matters, you know, what industry you're in and or 56 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,320 even sort of like what company you're in. 57 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:07,240 There's different, definitely different terms for different 58 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,840 people, but I, I think to like level set everybody. 59 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,480 And like when I'm talking about organizational change 60 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,600 management, like what is it exactly that I'm talking about? 61 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:18,680 So I love to define things really simply. 62 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,800 And I say it's moving people from doing things in one way in 63 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,320 an organization to doing things in a new way in an organization. 64 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,880 And we do that sort of three, three key areas. 65 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,840 So through communications training and business readiness. 66 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,240 And business readiness is like, you've probably heard of 67 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:36,680 communications, you've heard of training. 68 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,960 Business readiness is like, does everybody have everything they 69 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,320 need to do things in the new way and keep doing it that way in 70 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,040 the future so they don't go back like to the old way of doing 71 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,880 things or they don't get stuck not being able to like move 72 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,760 forward. And so we don't just do it for 73 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:53,920 the fun of it. We actually do it for the return 74 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,120 on investment. We want to realize the business 75 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,280 benefits of the change, which is often what you know the project 76 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,720 manager has come up with or is aware of from say the business 77 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,560 case or from the early scoping of the project, like what is 78 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:09,520 actually the results that we want to achieve. 79 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,720 So it can be any, like I mentioned a few types of 80 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,240 organizational changes already, but it can be any kind of 81 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,240 organizational change. It could be a new product or 82 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,480 service or a change to a product or service. 83 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,480 It could be a new system, platform, application bringing 84 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:28,000 in AI like anything techno, technological or digital. 85 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,320 It could be a new operating model or team structure. 86 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,840 It could be a new or changed process. 87 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:37,880 The move to remote work, the move back to the office, 88 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,040 construction projects, refurbishments like culture 89 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:45,040 changes, regulatory change, compliance change, like the It's 90 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,280 so vast, like any project really that you can think of. 91 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,080 We can use change management to help people feel informed, 92 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:56,800 inspired, confident and ready. So that's what change managers 93 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,520 do. Then comes, I mean, obviously, 94 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,440 you know, from a, from a project management perspective, project 95 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,400 managers are usually focused on actually the delivery of the 96 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:07,600 thing. They want to actually get the 97 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,440 solution up and running into the hands of people. 98 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,280 And they're responsible for scoping that, for planning out 99 00:05:13,280 --> 00:05:15,400 how they're going to do that, resourcing the project and 100 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,560 making that happen. So change managers, we care 101 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:23,360 about the delivery of the thing, but we also are actually more 102 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:27,760 about bringing the people on board so that they want the 103 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,920 thing, they know about the thing, they want the thing, they 104 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,520 know how to use the thing and then they want to keep using it 105 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,040 in the future. And also a slightly maybe like a 106 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:41,120 different shift, which is around sort of like the results because 107 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:45,240 project managers often their, you know, I guess marker of 108 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,600 success is go live. And I know that that's changing, 109 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,880 but like launch is success to them, whereas we're looking at 110 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,000 like how do we sustain that change into the future? 111 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,760 How do we embed it into the future? 112 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:02,880 So in some in Australia, it's quite split in terms of, you 113 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,400 know, project management is a profession, change management is 114 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,560 a profession and the market in Australia. 115 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,320 So the change management market in Australia is very mature, 116 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,040 probably the most mature in the world actually, which is 117 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,640 surprising because we're really little, we're really small. 118 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,520 Like we have like maybe like almost 30 million people in our 119 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,160 population. Like the US is 10 times as big 120 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:26,720 as us. But we really punch above our 121 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,040 weight in the change management sort of space. 122 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:33,640 Whereas in some markets like America, like I've had clients 123 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:38,120 before who they had the title of change manager, but the work 124 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,360 they were doing was actually project management work. 125 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:47,080 Regardless of where you are, what your role title is, I think 126 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:51,760 there's this level of even if you're not necessarily managing 127 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:56,120 change, having change management skills and understanding. 128 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,080 Like we know that project managers need to work with 129 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,120 stakeholders. We know that they need to 130 00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:04,800 connect their team. We know that they need to bring 131 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,680 people on board of the project and of what they need people to 132 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,480 do, so having change management skills is fabulous for any 133 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:14,360 project manager or any professional. 134 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:16,440 I love that. Thank you for that 135 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,480 distinguishment. And not only do you live in the 136 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:23,760 future, but it sounds like you're, you know everything 137 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:28,040 about change management in terms of it being its own role and, 138 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:32,240 and, and recognize and, and fully delineated from a project 139 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,720 management perspective. You are living in the future as 140 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:37,360 well. Because I do see, at least in 141 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,240 the US, when I'm looking across the various roles that 142 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:44,320 organizations are looking for, they very much still have those 143 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,920 two roles in some ways intertwined. 144 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:48,880 Maybe it's intentional, maybe it's not. 145 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:54,240 I was recently at a change management conference and coming 146 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,200 from a project management background, I love this 147 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,400 conversation Ready. And I'm already diverging from 148 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,000 our script, so I apologize about that. 149 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,520 But coming from APM background, I thought it was fascinating 150 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,720 that that was the first thing that jumped out at me as folks 151 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,520 were saying these two roles really should be distinguished 152 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,760 as their own roles. And So what do you think Lada is 153 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:20,520 the would be the negative impact for, you know, maybe what we're 154 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,120 seeing a lot more heavily here in the US, which is a 155 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,600 combination of those roles or again, whether it's intentional 156 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,320 or not, those roles seem to be looked at as the same or doing 157 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,039 similar things. Yeah. 158 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,400 And I, I should caveat it, but it's not always like that. 159 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,799 In some industries there is more delineation. 160 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:41,919 In some countries there is more delineation. 161 00:08:41,919 --> 00:08:44,880 And even in Australia we have what I like to like. 162 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,800 It's a, it's a term I coined a few years ago, which is called 163 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,280 like a slashy, like a slashy role. 164 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:56,400 And if you know Zoolander, the field like the old sort of cult. 165 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:01,240 Yeah, where, where Hansels like, you know, I or actually I don't 166 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,560 even think it was Hansel. It was somebody who wanted Fabio 167 00:09:04,560 --> 00:09:07,240 was like I wanna be an actor slash model and not the other 168 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,920 way around. It's true. 169 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,760 And I think it's not always when we're talking about like project 170 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,440 slash change, there's a lot of that around like project slash 171 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:21,520 change, change slash business analyst, you know, change slash 172 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,160 comms, so many slashy roles. But I think the thing to really 173 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,680 watch out for if you are project manager or if you're a business 174 00:09:28,680 --> 00:09:33,160 leader who's tasked with putting together a project, like 175 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,680 understanding that project management in and of itself is 176 00:09:36,680 --> 00:09:41,040 such a big role. Like it's such a, a key thing to 177 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,880 have to manage a project end to end. 178 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:50,640 You know, to scope, to quality, to time, to budget, to resources 179 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,360 that you have and capacity that you have available, you know, to 180 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,520 the business case, like having to manage that is such a massive 181 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,360 role. And then change management, like 182 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:06,200 I just came off a project with a consulting client and they were 183 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,080 project, they were very used to projects, but it was the first 184 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,720 time that they'd really been supported by a really kind of 185 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:16,560 hands on practical change manager and one of the program 186 00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:18,720 managers. She was like, I always kind of 187 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,600 knew like project management had this kind of like you put 188 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,920 together a plan and then you kind of execute across the plan. 189 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:27,120 I never knew that change management wouldn't have the 190 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,480 same thing. Imagine you've got a whole 191 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,560 almost like replicating how much work there is to do in project 192 00:10:33,560 --> 00:10:35,520 management. You have to do that for the 193 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,560 people because you want to, you know, identify and map out all 194 00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:40,720 of your stakeholders. And then you want to actually 195 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:46,360 create an experience and create a journey and keep tapping into 196 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,440 those people and into those networks, and you want to craft 197 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:51,800 communications and you're going to need to pull together like 198 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,280 training. So what I found is when project 199 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,760 managers are having to do all the change management themselves 200 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:04,080 as well, it can really run people very ragged. 201 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,640 It can really burn people out. Or they don't focus on the 202 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:09,920 people at all. They just focus on the delivery. 203 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:14,200 And it kind of waters down both professions and it puts your 204 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:18,400 project at risk really. So even if you can't, even if 205 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,840 your budget doesn't allow, maybe for a full time change manager, 206 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:23,640 like you could always potentially bring in a 207 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,040 consultant to do a bit bits and pieces of it. 208 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,840 Or you could bring in somebody more part time, or you could 209 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,400 have somebody come in just to set you up for success on the 210 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,360 change front. And then use some internal 211 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,560 resources to do the delivery. Like there's ways I think that 212 00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:40,480 you can massage it where it's not all sitting on the shoulders 213 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,760 of the project manager. Absolutely, absolutely. 214 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,440 I think it blew my mind. But at the same time, when I 215 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,160 heard it at this conference that they should be distinguished 216 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,480 roles, it completely made sense. And then what you just said 217 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,760 further emphasized the point. So I wanna get into the 218 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,840 connection between the two roles though, because project managers 219 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,640 essentially are carrying out or at least executing part of that 220 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:06,800 change, right? So we are involved in the 221 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:11,640 project change aspect of it. And the heart mind connection is 222 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,800 what I'm super fascinated about in terms of how you do with 223 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,320 change. So you talk about engaging 224 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:21,640 hearts and minds from the inside out for PMS dealing with 225 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,800 resistant stakeholders, let's say, or team members who you 226 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,160 know, we all encounter people who are just really adverse to 227 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,240 change, whether it's in the professional setting or even in 228 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,280 the personal setting, right? People, some people just don't 229 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,600 like change. So how do you use that technique 230 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,120 to move beyond the traditional change management approaches 231 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,440 that were some of us might be familiar with? 232 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,200 I think in the past, our audience has heard about models 233 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,640 like ADCAR, Prosci. I think it is, forgive me if I 234 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,360 didn't pronounce that correctly, but there's a few that we're 235 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:53,640 familiar with. But how? 236 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,680 How does this technique differ from those? 237 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,120 Yeah. So I think it kind of we have to 238 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,440 think about where we are in the grand scheme of things. 239 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,840 And project management's been around for, you know, several 240 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:07,840 decades. Change management's been around 241 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:09,560 for probably a couple of decades. 242 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,800 So it is that bit of a newer profession, probably a bit newer 243 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,720 than project management because back in the past, like sort of 244 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,320 the traditional view of change management was that you would 245 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:25,040 have a project, it was running waterfall and then you would be 246 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:30,120 able to have this really clear cut change that would like 247 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,560 change management approach that would sort of tee up against 248 00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:39,360 that kind of very like defined and timelined step by step, 249 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,760 stage by stage project management approach. 250 00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:46,480 And the problem is, is like that's not the way that projects 251 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,480 often run anymore. Like often they are more 252 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,680 flexible, they are more fluid, they are more agile. 253 00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:53,160 There might be an overarching project timeline, but things are 254 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:54,760 chopping and changing in between. 255 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,880 And then there's how we actually think about people. 256 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:04,080 So people in the past as well, you know, like 20 years ago and 257 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,400 30 years ago, there was a lot more opportunity for people to 258 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,280 just be told what to do. I mean, yeah, there might have 259 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,440 been some resistance, but you know, people generally kind of 260 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,000 like stuck with that kind of hierarchical. 261 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,560 Reporting kind. Of things, whereas now people 262 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,840 really want to be empowered in their organization. 263 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,400 They want to feel like they've contributed, that they've been 264 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,160 part of it, that they've been consulted. 265 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,720 There is a real shift in the way that people show up to work and 266 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:32,760 what they feel entitled to at work. 267 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,520 Like rightly or wrongly, they feel entitled to have a say and 268 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,280 they want to be engaged and they want to be part of it. 269 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,200 And you mentioned, you know, some people don't like, most 270 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,760 people don't like change. Like myself included, like I'm 271 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:52,520 part of this as well because it's part of our internal hard 272 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,480 wiring of like how our psychology is hard wired. 273 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,040 Like it's not rocket science and I don't go into it in huge 274 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:04,000 amounts of like detail, but like it said, like at a really high 275 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,280 level, when things are stable, when things are the same, when 276 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,680 things continue on, then we know our place. 277 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,520 We can plan for the future. We can guarantee our livelihood 278 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:16,960 and our income. And when something changes in an 279 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,000 organization, it really throws up that survival instinct 280 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,080 because people don't know what it's going to mean for them, 281 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:23,800 don't know what it's going to mean for their role, don't know 282 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:25,160 what it's going to mean for their future. 283 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:29,080 And you know, their ability even to put food on the table, even 284 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,960 something as little as like a process change can really fire 285 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,640 up that survival instinct within people. 286 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,760 Then what happens is that once that emotion gets triggered, 287 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,840 people's ears close to all of the logical, rational reasons 288 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,960 why we need to do this change. So they, they often, like we say 289 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,360 in neurolinguistic programming, which is what I'm accredited in, 290 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,800 it's the study of excellence in behaviour, communications and 291 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,080 psychology, or your emotions. And what we say in that is that 292 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:05,120 when people's emotions increase, their intelligence decreases, 293 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,240 which is not to say that their IQ decreases. 294 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:12,840 It's that their ability to rationally think and process is 295 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,600 impacted. And if you ever think about, you 296 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,720 know, when you're in the heated and in a heated argument or in a 297 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,320 really like high emotional state, you can't think clearly. 298 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,880 Like you'll literally like, you know, they talk about like 299 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:28,080 you're seeing red or you kind of almost like you're more focused 300 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,320 on winning that on what's right. If that makes sense. 301 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:34,760 Those same things are being triggered when change is 302 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:39,160 announced and probably even more emotive because it is really 303 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,440 linked to, you know, am I going to have a job tomorrow? 304 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,360 And again, even the the simplest thing that you might think 305 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:48,640 doesn't even affect people's role. 306 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,600 People will project that and they will jump ahead and they 307 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,120 will, they'll be doing that at an unconscious level, whether or 308 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,320 not it's right or not. They'll make that jump for 309 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,240 themselves and jump to that conclusion. 310 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,520 So with neurolinguistic programming, we really want to 311 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,119 tap into people's hearts and minds and we want to craft 312 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,960 change communications and change messaging. 313 00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:12,520 We want to run programs and training. 314 00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:15,599 We want to set people up for success and build capability and 315 00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:19,119 coaching skills in a way that's going to actually really tap 316 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,200 into their hearts and their minds. 317 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,760 It's going to actually have them resonating with this change from 318 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,520 the inside out and feeling like they are empowered, supported, 319 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,440 understanding, and also that they have a future. 320 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:35,520 And I think that's where it differs. 321 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,680 Like my approach really differs from sort of a lot of the 322 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,400 traditional kind of models of change management out there and 323 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,880 the methodologies of change management because they're very 324 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,120 much focused on the technical side of change. 325 00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:51,400 And like, yes, you need to deliver change. 326 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,160 And I teach my students how to like practically deliver change 327 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,240 in a project. At the same time, you need to be 328 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,480 able to bring in these abilities to engage hearts and minds. 329 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,640 And I sort of share a lot of really deep neuro linguistic 330 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,000 programming coaching techniques where you can then engage hearts 331 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,440 and minds to really reframe the change for people. 332 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,000 I love that you said so many good Nuggets and, and, and you 333 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,920 started with something that had never crossed my mind, which is 334 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:24,480 the voice of the people in terms of how it used to be versus how 335 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,520 it is today. And all of that intertwined with 336 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,400 their even passion or their excitement for change or 337 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,000 whatever, for lack of a better word. 338 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,560 And being involved in the change and how even just kind of 339 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:41,880 flipping the script on how that has transformed itself through 340 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:47,480 the years is really a big change in itself for how probably 341 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,240 Someone Like You, a change leader, would approach change 342 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,880 today versus maybe 5-10 years ago when you said it was easier 343 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:56,600 just to tell somebody we're changing it. 344 00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:00,680 Good luck, right? But now you really have to be 345 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,960 conscious of like what people are thinking, how they're 346 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,920 feeling about it, what's the impact to their role. 347 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,880 Those are all the things that, you know, we started this this 348 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,440 conversation by distinguishing between APM and a change 349 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,440 manager. I don't know that APM would even 350 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,840 be in that frame of mind to be thinking about that. 351 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:26,400 So even more so from convincing me that absolutely these roles 352 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,040 should be delineated because you have to have somebody like you 353 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,280 in there thinking about the people and, and how they're 354 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,000 feeling about the change. So that was fantastic. 355 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,680 Now, when it comes to the application of the technique 356 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:45,240 here, do you have something a little practical that our 357 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,280 listeners could take and apply to something that might be 358 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,080 happening at their organization? Yeah, absolutely. 359 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:57,040 Like I mentioned, I drawn a lot of sort of NLP tools and 360 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,400 coaching techniques and I sort of have brought those across 361 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,400 into the change management space. 362 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,320 So like they're kind of business ready tools. 363 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,600 And one of the ones that I love the most, like I'm sure a lot of 364 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,680 your listeners will have heard of this already, but you know, 365 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,760 like when you are thinking about change, it's like coming up with 366 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,960 the say the like the what's in it for me or sometimes we'll 367 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,840 call it like the wiffum. So what's in it for me? 368 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,720 But my question to you and would be like who comes up with the 369 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:27,720 what's in it for me? Gosh, like who responds to that? 370 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,320 Yeah. Like on a project, if you were 371 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,640 coming up with the what's in it for me on the change, like who 372 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,240 would usually come up with that do you think? 373 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:38,360 I don't know. I mean, I, I would think one of 374 00:20:38,360 --> 00:20:41,920 the typical answers you hear is leadership or the executives or 375 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,480 somebody who's setting the vision for the organization, but 376 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,560 I'm going to guess that's wrong. Am I wrong a lot of? 377 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:48,920 Bingo. You're not wrong. 378 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,800 You're absolutely right. Like you know, it might be the 379 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,320 change manager, the project manager, it could be executive, 380 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,440 sometimes even the board. I've worked on projects where 381 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,280 the board actually mandated it changed the leaders. 382 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,440 And if you think about it, if somebody else is coming up with 383 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,000 the what's in it for me, then it's not really what's in it for 384 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,800 me. It's actually what's in it for 385 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:12,920 you. It's trying to convince somebody 386 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,680 what's in it for you. So it's not with them. 387 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,680 It's actually more wiffy. And it is a bit wiffy, right? 388 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:23,240 Like it smells a bit like BF because people are like, hang on 389 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:24,840 a second. You're just telling me all these 390 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,080 like, and often it's like the logical, rational reasons why we 391 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,080 need the change. Like we need to create this 392 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,360 burning platform for change, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 393 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:34,480 blah. But the problem is it's being 394 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,000 crafted from people who are looking at it from a business 395 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,680 case perspective or looking at it from a productivity 396 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:41,440 perspective or a performance perspective. 397 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,800 And that's not what engages people's hearts and minds. 398 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,560 Like a really good example of this sort of early on in my 399 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,640 change management career, I'd already learnt neurolinguistic 400 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,280 programming and coaching and I was struggling with this project 401 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:59,440 manager who was rolling out this financial reporting system and 402 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,160 she was like an accounting finance background. 403 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,920 So I was saying to her, I'm like trying to figure out how we're 404 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:06,560 going to brand and message this change. 405 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:12,120 And I said to her, I'm like, oh, you know what, what is the 406 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,920 benefit of this change? And she's like financial 407 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:20,320 reporting. And I'm like, OK, I'm for you. 408 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,440 I know that switches you on. Like you could see her like, 409 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,840 she's like, yes, like. This is great. 410 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,320 And like, nobody else is going to care about that. 411 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,080 Like maybe your colleagues will, but nobody else in the 412 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:35,920 organization is going to care about that. 413 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,960 So if we LED messaging that change with like financial 414 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:44,680 reporting, we would lose people because they would either not 415 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,120 care or even worse, they would think it's only about the money. 416 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,320 And like they, you know what I mean. 417 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:56,800 So instead I did this one really simple, very powerful NLP tool 418 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,600 with her, which is called Chunking Up and an idea. 419 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,200 The principal premise behind chunking up is that when things 420 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,680 are high level, when things are more broad brush and high level 421 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,600 that they, that more people are going to get into agreement with 422 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,680 it. And that when things are more 423 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,640 detailed and lower level and more specific, that's where 424 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:17,840 you're going to get disagreement. 425 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,880 That's where you're going to get opposition, resistance, personal 426 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,360 preferences which create, you know, opposition. 427 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,760 So like a really good example is like, I live in the heart of 428 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,480 Sydney. I live in a 2 bedroom apartment. 429 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,160 I've got a beautiful garden terrace, I have a pool, spa, 430 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,920 sauna, 24/7 concierge and a library in my apartment 431 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:41,000 building. And I love it. 432 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,440 But for other people, like it's super specific, right? 433 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,080 But for other people, they might, that might be their idea 434 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,080 of a nightmare. Like they might be like, I want 435 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,640 to be in a house in the suburbs so that there's, you know, room 436 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,200 for my kids and my pets. Or they might be like, I could 437 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:56,280 don't even want to live in the city. 438 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,240 I want to live in the countryside and see the mountain 439 00:23:58,240 --> 00:23:59,040 air. Do you know what I mean? 440 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,480 Like everybody has personal preferences of the individual 441 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,800 house to live in. But when we chunk up and we kind 442 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,040 of go, you know, like, what's the purpose of a house? 443 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,320 What's the purpose of of living in a house? 444 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:16,240 We can chunk up by asking this question for what purpose or 445 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:17,880 what's the highest intention of that? 446 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:19,760 That's how we get higher level chunked. 447 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,400 And then we could chunk up and go, OK, like we've got a house. 448 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,640 What's the purpose of a house? It's or like, what's the next 449 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:27,800 stage of a house? Oh, OK. 450 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,400 It's to be in, you know, a community. 451 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:32,800 What's the purpose of that? Because that's part of, you 452 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:34,680 know, being in a country. What's the purpose of the 453 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,800 country being part of the world? What's the purpose of the world? 454 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,000 Well, we're in. We're all part of the fabric of 455 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,600 the universe. Yeah. 456 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,400 And when you chunk up to the universe, like we can all agree 457 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,240 that the universe is a pretty great place to live, right? 458 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,840 So then you're able to kind of get to this point where 459 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:54,760 everybody's able to be in agreement. 460 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,000 So that's the principle. Then going back to this 461 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,920 particular case with this particular project manager, so 462 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,800 I'm asking her, so I just did this with her, one-on-one, just 463 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:06,880 with her. And I just said to her, like, 464 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,200 what's the purpose of financial reporting? 465 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,000 And then she answered, what's the purpose of that? 466 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,480 What's the purpose of that? And I just kept asking, and I 467 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,680 wasn't asking the question why? Because why actually creates 468 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,240 listing in the mind? We want to ask for what purpose? 469 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,520 What's the highest intention? Because we want to chunk up. 470 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,040 And we ended up getting to the point it was a local government 471 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:29,640 organization that I was working for. 472 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,120 And we ended up getting to the point that that doing this would 473 00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:39,200 actually create more information and data to be able to make 474 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,800 better decisions. And the reason that we want to 475 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,560 make better decisions is for our community and everybody, whether 476 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,040 they're office based staff, whether they're outdoor based 477 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,800 staff, like no matter where they worked in the organization, the 478 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,680 community was a really big reason as to why people chose to 479 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,560 work at that organization. And it really switched people on 480 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,960 and gave them a real kind of like sense of why they showed up 481 00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:03,520 to work each day. So we ended up naming that 482 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:08,400 program Make It Count. And the tagline was empowering, 483 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,480 better decision making for our community. 484 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,040 Nice. And then and then we kind of 485 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,360 called it like, you know, every asset, every person, every 486 00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:19,680 dollar, every decision. So rather than just focusing on 487 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,000 the finance, we went broad brush. 488 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,800 We tapped it into people's hearts and minds as to what 489 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:30,200 would actually switch them on, and we kind of paved that way 490 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,920 for them. Such a great example. 491 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,560 It completely translates. And so for folks who are 492 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:40,200 thinking about this in terms of how do they push out their own 493 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:44,200 change, I think that is truly applicable to the kind of the 494 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,200 narrow funnel that a change could be perceived as from maybe 495 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,840 one person that you've spoken to versus the many. 496 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,240 So, so far we've learned, I'm just going to call this out 497 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,680 slushy with them and chunking up. 498 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,480 These are all and these are great because you know what, 499 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,680 following this conversation, I will remember all of those terms 500 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:06,360 and remember what you're you were saying. 501 00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:09,400 So this is all really good practical application. 502 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,760 Thank you, Lada. So let's talk a little bit about 503 00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:16,480 change management in terms of the after, because PMS are 504 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,080 typically not used to that. As we had talked about in the 505 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,120 beginning, when we close a project, we're on to the next 506 00:27:22,120 --> 00:27:25,000 project, right? So we start close and maybe 507 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,800 there's some documentation we got to do lessons learned, put 508 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,800 that in the catalog, pick that up for the next project. 509 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,120 Change management from what I understand is different. 510 00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:38,640 It almost feels like your works only starts after the changes 511 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,680 executed and implemented and trained on to figure out if it's 512 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,720 actually going to to stick to be sustained. 513 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,160 So tell me more about how that works out for you in terms of 514 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,000 how do you measure that? You know, have you ever been in 515 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,000 a a situation where you're within the change itself and 516 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,400 you're seeing maybe the general audience is losing their hearts 517 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,040 and minds about the change? You know, how do you pick that 518 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,680 momentum back up as well? So such a such a good question, 519 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,800 such a big. Question, sorry, it's very 520 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,120 broad. And you've definitely like hit 521 00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:19,040 the nail on the head, I think in terms of when the project ends, 522 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,320 like that is really when the change work begins, or I should 523 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,120 even say when go live happens, which is usually like in, in a 524 00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:29,600 lot of project managers minds, like that's the mouse when 525 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,480 they're trying to hit is go live launch. 526 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,280 And like I've seen projects where like a project manager 527 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,760 will literally like finish on that project 2, two weeks later. 528 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,400 I as a change manager, because change managers are often linked 529 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,480 and funded out of the project, we end up having to do the same 530 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,640 thing where we're actually being pulled off projects after only 531 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,000 two weeks. And so a really and, and 532 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,800 obviously we don't just want to know about what what's happening 533 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,760 with go live. We want to actually make sure 534 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,240 that we've seen that change embedded and sustained into the 535 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,440 future, that people keep doing it and most importantly that we 536 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:11,280 really realize those business benefits because the business 537 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,760 case, which is why the project even got signed off in the 1st 538 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,160 place. It's like if you have nobody 539 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:22,120 continuing to actually report against the business case 540 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,840 objectives and from a change perspective and the way that I 541 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,440 teach it is that we don't just look at just like the, you know, 542 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,240 like the financials and the like kind of like the technical 543 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,320 aspects. I open it up and make it more 544 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,520 broader. We want to actually track that 545 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,880 over time. And because I have like a 546 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,240 marketing background for me, everything that we do should 547 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,320 have a customer experience component to it where it's 548 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:52,920 either going to like increase sales, decrease costs or or do 549 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,160 you know what I mean? Like make, make sales, save 550 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:59,000 money or bring or, or bring some sort of customer experience 551 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,920 element. You can't figure that out at Go 552 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,680 live like it's not enough time hasn't hasn't actually been 553 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,520 experienced for long enough to see whether there has been that 554 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:14,640 long term benefit. So, and in one case I actually 555 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,720 saw a project which is literally the people on the project had 556 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,320 been reassigned to new projects and sort of started working on 557 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,520 them even before the change. Went on Oh my before it 558 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:26,880 launched. Wow. 559 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,840 What we do in change management, we really focus on handover and 560 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,880 embedding and we try to build that in actually from the very 561 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,520 beginning that there's going to be this tail on this project and 562 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,480 then towards the end of the project and after go live, like 563 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,480 I always kind of say to my students, like we always want to 564 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,040 keep our ear to the ground and notice the results. 565 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,280 This is another sort of thing that comes up in neuro 566 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,560 linguistic programming when you're working with somebody 567 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,320 like one-on-one or you want to notice the shifts and the 568 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:55,960 changes that are happening. Has it worked? 569 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:57,320 Has it not worked? Yes, no. 570 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,920 Kind of very binary. So we want to notice the 571 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,000 results. And maybe it is that we actually 572 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,920 need to do a bit more training. Like after go live, it's clear 573 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,800 that people are still struck struggling, they're still stuck. 574 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,080 They need to do more training. Maybe it's instead that like 575 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,520 the, the change has created new needs. 576 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,240 So a good example is like from a business readiness perspective, 577 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,200 going back to that change, we're rolling out these like sort of 578 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,160 like tablets to these outdoor workers or iPads to these 579 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,240 outdoor workers. And like one of the things from 580 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,280 a business readiness perspective is that if you've got weed 581 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,840 killer on your hands or water on your hands or dirt or soil on 582 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,240 your hands and you go to try to use a touch screen, like what 583 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:48,000 happens? Don't want to do that actually. 584 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,480 I, I mean, I would try to avoid it at all costs, but yes, it 585 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,000 would. Yeah, it does not work. 586 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,480 If you have like a wet finger off and you won't find your 587 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:02,880 finger or as part of go live, like we were like, let's pop a 588 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,400 set of like wet wipes into each truck for each of these after 589 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,360 workers. But then thinking about it, 590 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,720 thinking about how you're going to embed that, once that pack 591 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,520 runs out, it's like they're not going to do it anymore and they 592 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,040 won't be able to use their tablets. 593 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,240 So it's like, OK, we needed to give that job to somebody to 594 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,720 replenish those on a regular basis so that they could keep 595 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:29,400 using those tablets in the future. 596 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,760 So there's this hand over and end bed place where we want to 597 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:35,960 go. What's all the things that 598 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,480 happened in the project and how can we farm those out to 599 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,320 business as usual teams? Because we know that the 600 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,560 project's going to disband. We know the project manager's 601 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,320 going to leave, go work on another project, change 602 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,240 manager's going to leave, go work on another project. 603 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,560 So it's like, how do we put the reporting? 604 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:55,120 How do we farm out the reporting and the benefits realization to 605 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,360 business as usual teams? Who's going to own that moving 606 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,440 forward? But also all the things that the 607 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,680 project did? Because, you know, projects are 608 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,240 short, sharp pieces of work and they're often very well 609 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,760 resourced and supported. But as soon as they disband, 610 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,800 where does all of that support go? 611 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,880 Like it disappears into the ether. 612 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,720 And that's such a big reason why change so often fails. 613 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,760 It was great at Go live, but it never embedded into the future. 614 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,920 There might be new roles that need to get created. 615 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,600 There might be new rhythms and ways of working that needs to be 616 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,040 created in order to support people being able to do this 617 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:35,080 change in the future. So that is kind of the like what 618 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,040 I would say it's a, it's a crying shame that so often 619 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:43,200 change managers are hired into projects and finish very shortly 620 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,440 after go live. But a good change manager, 621 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,800 regardless of how much longer they're on the project for, will 622 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,760 at least create that handover and embed plan and see any of 623 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:57,000 the things that might have popped up and cropped up as soon 624 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,280 as people started actually experiencing the thing, whatever 625 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,640 it is that you're delivering. And they will actually build 626 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,720 that plan in and hand over appropriately. 627 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,360 That's great. Let's add handover and embed to 628 00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:11,679 to the list of phrases or or concepts that we've learned 629 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,440 today. Now without me being facetious 630 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,400 about, I've given you about 50 questions and I maybe have gone 631 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,000 through three of them from what I wanted to ask you today a lot 632 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,520 of. So I think just to round out 633 00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:30,840 this conversation, I have one more question around future 634 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,760 trends because as I think you mentioned upfront too, you're 635 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:40,000 aware that at least in the PM space, the concept of project 636 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,080 closure now involves value realization, benefits 637 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:45,760 realization and and that sort of thing. 638 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,800 So the PM profession as well is, is evolving to start to 639 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,920 understand post project, how do we measure if it was successful? 640 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,640 Now knowing that and knowing what the trends may be for 641 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,520 change management, how do those come together in your mind? 642 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,360 Do you see anything that is going to shift or evolve to 643 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,640 where project management and change management might see a 644 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,600 different future because of that? 645 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,960 Or is it, are we kind of continuing down the same path of 646 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,840 the roles, being very distinguished but being able to 647 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,600 work together? Yeah. 648 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:23,480 So I think that regardless, project management and change 649 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,120 management are partners no matter what. 650 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:27,600 Oh yeah, absolutely. They. 651 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,600 Kind of like there's always going to be value in partnering 652 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,000 and a change manager. Understanding and respecting 653 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,840 what a project manager is doing and what, what's top of mind for 654 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,240 them is really important. As is a project manager 655 00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:43,560 understanding and supporting what a change manager is doing 656 00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:48,760 and kind of and how involved you want to be in each side. 657 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,240 Like personally, I kind of stay out of the project management 658 00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:54,560 side because like, unless there's no project, I've worked 659 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,680 on projects where there is only a change manager and there is no 660 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,600 project manager, and I've had to sort of jump in to do a bit of 661 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,600 the project management to showcase the fact that we need a 662 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:07,440 project manager. Sorry, irony of that, yes. 663 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,960 And so like, I'm always advocating, like I think every 664 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,240 project, no matter what, should have a project manager and a 665 00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:16,680 change manager. Absolutely. 666 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,960 I think one of the big trends that we're seeing, it's already 667 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,440 started like it's like if you ever talk to anybody in 668 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,880 organizations, like you hear the words change, fatigue, change, 669 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,240 overwhelm, like, oh, you know, like this project barely rolled 670 00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:34,520 out and the next project is already started. 671 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:36,600 And I think that we have to really. 672 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,280 And another concept for your. Little list. 673 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,560 Yeah, let's do it Little. Glossary that you're keeping, 674 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,520 You know, we really have to think of like sort of like the 675 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,680 end to end changes and the fact that change isn't going away. 676 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,960 And I kind of like to sort of talk about it kind of almost 677 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,640 like the ripple effects of change. 678 00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:56,560 And I don't know if you've ever heard that phrase where like a 679 00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:02,200 rising tide lifts all boats, but in the past we sort of had like 680 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,720 project peaks and then down and then another project peak and 681 00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:11,000 then down. And those waves are almost like 682 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,760 not, there's no separation of them anymore. 683 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,800 Like change is coming so thick and so fast. 684 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,240 Projects are having to implement and deliver so quickly. 685 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:26,400 With increasing technology, the advent of AI, more automation 686 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,320 happening. Like we're only going to see 687 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,600 that accelerate. So projects won't have the 688 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,800 luxury of, you know, like sometimes like the six months or 689 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:38,080 the one to two years to figure themselves out and deliver and 690 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:42,480 change won't have that either. So what I like to sort of the 691 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,840 phrase that I like to use is building the undercurrent of 692 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,520 change acceptance. So building the undercurrent of 693 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:51,920 change acceptance. So instead of thinking of those 694 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,720 peaks and troughs, which is why I don't really use a lot of the 695 00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:58,680 change management models anymore, I use sort of my own 696 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,760 model that I or this own kind of framework, which kind of alludes 697 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,320 to the fact that change never ends. 698 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,560 Every change you've done in the past feeds into the change that 699 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,480 is kind of coming in the future. Every change you do in the 700 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,320 future can embed changes from the past. 701 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,440 You don't actually need to start and stop them. 702 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,560 So an undercurrent of change acceptance is getting your 703 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,520 organization, getting your people, getting your community, 704 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,000 your clients, whoever it is that you're serving. 705 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,200 They're starting to build their comfort level with change, their 706 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,120 understanding of change, their acceptance levels of change, 707 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,240 because it's not going away, it's only getting faster. 708 00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:40,560 And they will struggle if they expect to ride peaks and troughs 709 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,480 they actually need to, like a rising tide, lifts or boats. 710 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,320 We need to raise the level of change acceptance across 711 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,720 everybody, everywhere. Otherwise people will drown 712 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:52,800 people. Will just. 713 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,360 And I think it's everybody's responsibility. 714 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,600 Absolutely absolutely look lotta I I wish I we had many, many 715 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,720 more hours to have you as part of this episode. 716 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,840 I will be completely honest. I hope I didn't sound too 717 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,480 nervous in this conversation, but when folks like yourself, 718 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:17,040 leaders and in in their space approach this small podcast to 719 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:21,640 say, hey, I want to come talk about XY and Z, sometimes I do 720 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,600 get nervous because it's just incredible the information that 721 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:26,000 you shared with our audience today. 722 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,120 And I'm truly honored that you made some space for us. 723 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,640 You've shared a lot about change management, but certainly not 724 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:34,960 enough. So if folks want to continue the 725 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,480 conversation with you, where can they find you online? 726 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,240 Yeah, I definitely think that if you are interested in sort of 727 00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:46,040 like learning more about change management or making the career 728 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,680 change change, come follow me on LinkedIn for Sadas. 729 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,000 I post all this stuff about change management there. 730 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,120 If you're thinking of sort of like making any kind of career 731 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,000 change, you can find my book Pioneer or Career Change on 732 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,800 Amazon or all audiobook platforms. 733 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,720 And then if you really do want to bring sort of change 734 00:40:03,720 --> 00:40:06,760 management, practical application of change management 735 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,240 skills, tools, techniques. That engage hearts and minds. 736 00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:12,920 If you want to bring that into your project management toolkit 737 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,600 or into your leadership toolkit, I would just so highly recommend 738 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,080 my program Leading Successful Change because that is what it 739 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,560 is all about. And you like I've had students 740 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,680 literally walk out of that program or even just one, one 741 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,360 session or one module or one lesson of it and be like, I've 742 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:33,320 put that into practice the next day And hearing that just lights 743 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,960 me up because I'm like, people are going out there and they're 744 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,280 practically doing change. They're not just learning about 745 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,560 the theory of change and going out there and doing it and 746 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:46,040 helping people to understand, accept, embrace and come on 747 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,680 board with change, which is my big passion. 748 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:53,160 I, I can't emphasize enough how honored we are to have the 749 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,480 information that you shared super practical, not just for 750 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,160 project managers, but career professionals in general. 751 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:03,040 So you folks can also talk to me, but you know, more so talk 752 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:04,760 to Lada. I'm also on LinkedIn at 753 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,160 Ancampia. But more importantly, subscribe 754 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,640 to this podcast, the Everyday PM Podcast, and leave us a comment 755 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:12,800 about what you thought about our conversation today. 756 00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:16,280 So that will do it for Lada and I for this installment of the 757 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:20,520 Everyday PM Podcast. Until next time, take care.