1 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:12,920 Welcome to the Everyday PM Podcast, the podcast where we 2 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,840 discuss project management principles for your everyday 3 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:17,960 life. My name is Anne Campia and I'm a 4 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:21,200 certified Project slash Program Manager with over a decade of 5 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:23,640 experience working in various industries. 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,670 Healthcare, retail, consumer goods, tech, marketing, you name 7 00:00:27,670 --> 00:00:29,550 it. I probably have been have worked 8 00:00:29,550 --> 00:00:32,830 in that industry before. I am so excited to welcome 9 00:00:32,830 --> 00:00:37,470 Giuliano to the podcast who is a project management executive and 10 00:00:37,470 --> 00:00:41,030 entrepreneur with 15 years of experience across ecommerce, 11 00:00:41,030 --> 00:00:43,830 fintech, travel and loyalty industry. 12 00:00:43,830 --> 00:00:47,370 So, Giuliano, you might have me be and the amount of industries 13 00:00:47,370 --> 00:00:51,010 that you have worked. Across as well, but thank you so 14 00:00:51,010 --> 00:00:53,410 much for joining us on the podcast today. 15 00:00:53,610 --> 00:00:56,250 We are definitely going to spotlight a lot of what you work 16 00:00:56,250 --> 00:00:59,490 on and what you do. But before we get to that, for 17 00:00:59,490 --> 00:01:02,210 those in our audience who have not met you yet, please take a 18 00:01:02,210 --> 00:01:03,770 brief moment to introduce yourself. 19 00:01:04,569 --> 00:01:06,530 For sure. First off, thank you and for 20 00:01:06,530 --> 00:01:09,650 having me on the Everyday PM. I'm an avid listener. 21 00:01:10,050 --> 00:01:13,050 So glad to finally be a guest speaker on your show as well. 22 00:01:13,050 --> 00:01:14,840 So. A little bit about me. 23 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:19,000 So I began my, what I call, relationship with project 24 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,520 management, I would say over the last 15 years or so. 25 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,200 And I kind of focused on the business transformation side of 26 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:27,880 things. So you can think of that as 27 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,800 basically large enterprise level type of projects. 28 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:33,440 That's where my passion tends to lie. 29 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,280 And and and if you think about it, most PM's kind of get drawn 30 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:38,880 into the profession because you work on things you've never 31 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,440 really done before, right? It could be a new product, a new 32 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,690 process, a new service. So that's kind of what drove me 33 00:01:44,690 --> 00:01:47,810 into the industry and it kind of haven't looked back since. 34 00:01:48,610 --> 00:01:51,570 Awesome. And you're exactly right. 35 00:01:51,570 --> 00:01:54,530 And we've had probably multiple conversations throughout the 36 00:01:55,010 --> 00:01:59,370 life of this podcast around how either people fell into being a 37 00:01:59,370 --> 00:02:02,760 project manager or they were actually trained and went to 38 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,600 school and and educated themselves before they picked up 39 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:06,960 that role. But it sounds like you got a 40 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,039 little bit of both happening and in your journey to where you're 41 00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:12,720 at today. So thank you so much for sharing 42 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:14,040 your professional journey with us. 43 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:19,600 So let's dive into you talked about being passionate about 44 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,480 enterprisewide PMO. And I know that a lot of folks 45 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,680 who are probably starting in project management might not 46 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,090 even know what that means. So can we break it down for them 47 00:02:30,090 --> 00:02:33,610 just kind of at a basic level, what are the differences between 48 00:02:33,610 --> 00:02:36,410 what you do and your role versus, you know, somebody who 49 00:02:36,410 --> 00:02:39,130 might just be starting out? Yeah, for sure. 50 00:02:39,130 --> 00:02:42,290 So I like to look at, I like to think of the project management 51 00:02:42,330 --> 00:02:44,690 role as a whole. It's really going through some 52 00:02:44,690 --> 00:02:48,130 sort of disruption right now. So if you look at traditional 53 00:02:48,130 --> 00:02:51,410 project managers, they're tend to focus mostly on the project 54 00:02:51,450 --> 00:02:54,330 outcomes as a whole. And then this is regardless if 55 00:02:54,330 --> 00:02:57,010 they have a PMO that they're reporting under or not. 56 00:02:57,810 --> 00:03:01,170 And what's different about enterprise level projects is 57 00:03:01,170 --> 00:03:03,170 you're kind of looking at it from a global scale. 58 00:03:03,170 --> 00:03:06,930 So you're really looking at what the strategy is of the company 59 00:03:06,930 --> 00:03:09,170 you're working for. And it doesn't have to just be 60 00:03:09,170 --> 00:03:12,290 the fiscal year, doesn't have to be just 2023 for example. 61 00:03:12,290 --> 00:03:15,170 It's really looking at a couple years ahead basically whatever 62 00:03:15,170 --> 00:03:17,490 the company is willing to share with you, it's kind of you being 63 00:03:17,490 --> 00:03:20,850 able to ingest that and kind of apply it to what you're working 64 00:03:20,850 --> 00:03:23,210 on. So I really like to think of it 65 00:03:23,210 --> 00:03:26,770 as focusing on business outcomes and the success criteria of the 66 00:03:26,770 --> 00:03:30,250 business. Versus just trying to check off 67 00:03:30,250 --> 00:03:33,450 scope, budget and quality like traditional projects do. 68 00:03:33,970 --> 00:03:36,770 I love that you portrayed in such a way that is is very 69 00:03:36,770 --> 00:03:39,850 practical and you kind of outlined with logical steps of 70 00:03:39,850 --> 00:03:43,170 how to get there. Now when I think about it, I 71 00:03:43,650 --> 00:03:48,650 wonder about how do you make that switch, right. 72 00:03:48,650 --> 00:03:53,090 So you could be doing the tactical, you could be very task 73 00:03:53,090 --> 00:03:56,770 driven looking at you know, jobs on an individual basis. 74 00:03:56,770 --> 00:04:00,970 But for you and your journey, Juliano, when did you realize 75 00:04:00,970 --> 00:04:04,970 that you were making that switch for yourself in terms of 76 00:04:05,370 --> 00:04:09,570 focusing more on the strategic initiatives as part of your PMO 77 00:04:09,570 --> 00:04:13,090 versus, you know, the tactical kind of daytoday work that you 78 00:04:13,090 --> 00:04:14,850 probably were doing when you started out? 79 00:04:15,590 --> 00:04:17,350 Yeah, It's actually a really great question. 80 00:04:17,350 --> 00:04:20,070 And I had a pretty interesting career, at least a little bit on 81 00:04:20,070 --> 00:04:22,830 the latter part of my career. So I was definitely one that 82 00:04:22,830 --> 00:04:25,790 just focused on the product, the project level initially. 83 00:04:26,430 --> 00:04:30,830 But one pivot I made around 2018 was actually left the project 84 00:04:30,830 --> 00:04:33,310 management world for a little bit and actually took on an 85 00:04:33,310 --> 00:04:37,430 operations role for a startup for one of the largest companies 86 00:04:37,430 --> 00:04:39,930 in Canada. And that was and you can think 87 00:04:39,930 --> 00:04:44,410 of that as leading teams such as customer support delivery, back 88 00:04:44,410 --> 00:04:46,770 office operations. And while that was a pretty 89 00:04:46,770 --> 00:04:50,290 crazy pivot, one thing I did notice was it really gave me a 90 00:04:50,410 --> 00:04:53,570 much more holistic view of execution as a whole. 91 00:04:54,290 --> 00:04:55,890 And that's how I treat project management. 92 00:04:55,890 --> 00:04:57,810 It's really executing on the strategy. 93 00:04:58,050 --> 00:05:00,570 So that's when the light bulb really clicked inside of me. 94 00:05:00,570 --> 00:05:03,500 It's like, hey, we're not just. Ticking boxes, we're not just 95 00:05:03,500 --> 00:05:05,300 making sure the project is always green. 96 00:05:05,300 --> 00:05:08,220 We're actually trying to create some outcomes that's beneficial 97 00:05:08,220 --> 00:05:09,900 for a company or an organization. 98 00:05:10,580 --> 00:05:13,540 So that was kind of the light bulb moment that I had back in 99 00:05:13,540 --> 00:05:15,420 2018. I love that. 100 00:05:15,420 --> 00:05:18,260 It's such a beautiful journey. And when that clicks for you, 101 00:05:18,260 --> 00:05:21,860 it's kind of like, right. Everything that I was doing, the 102 00:05:21,860 --> 00:05:25,670 grind that was happening on all these projects, the day-to-day, 103 00:05:25,670 --> 00:05:28,310 the nitty gritty, working directly with the project teams, 104 00:05:28,310 --> 00:05:31,230 It all starts to make sense when you start to connect it to 105 00:05:31,510 --> 00:05:34,590 strategy and the overall vision. I like that you said you took a 106 00:05:34,590 --> 00:05:38,950 departure from being a, you know, project manager by title. 107 00:05:39,190 --> 00:05:41,190 I mean, I still think when you're in operations you're 108 00:05:41,190 --> 00:05:43,070 still kind of doing project management stuff. 109 00:05:43,830 --> 00:05:45,470 Yeah. If I'm not mistaken, I'm in that 110 00:05:45,470 --> 00:05:48,350 role now and I still feel like I'm practicing project 111 00:05:48,350 --> 00:05:50,910 management. But I think that departure alone 112 00:05:50,910 --> 00:05:53,670 was something that allowed you to kind of gain perspective too. 113 00:05:53,670 --> 00:05:55,910 And so I implore those that are listening. 114 00:05:55,910 --> 00:05:59,070 When you think about your journey and you're trying to 115 00:05:59,070 --> 00:06:06,070 figure out how to make that transition, I consider your 116 00:06:06,070 --> 00:06:10,150 exposure to, to what you know about the company. 117 00:06:10,430 --> 00:06:14,230 For example, let's say you are considering a long 10 years, 10 118 00:06:14,230 --> 00:06:18,290 years somewhere. Try to expand your network, talk 119 00:06:18,290 --> 00:06:22,810 to people, understand what am I doing on a daytoday and how does 120 00:06:22,810 --> 00:06:26,370 that connect to strategy? And I, I think Giuliano, I 121 00:06:26,370 --> 00:06:29,930 brought you on here because I also want to know how you see 122 00:06:29,930 --> 00:06:33,090 that in your daytoday, right, in your role as PMO director. 123 00:06:33,090 --> 00:06:37,250 I think that is your daytoday as you're thinking about strategy 124 00:06:37,250 --> 00:06:39,570 on a daily basis. But for somebody who's kind of 125 00:06:39,570 --> 00:06:42,690 just trying to tap into that and figure out, is this the journey 126 00:06:42,690 --> 00:06:45,950 I want to make as a PM, You know, what does that look like? 127 00:06:45,950 --> 00:06:48,830 And so I'm definitely interested in in you sharing that 128 00:06:48,830 --> 00:06:50,590 perspective with our audience as well. 129 00:06:51,190 --> 00:06:54,390 Of course, and I think it really also comes from the level of 130 00:06:54,390 --> 00:06:56,470 leadership in the company you work for too. 131 00:06:56,470 --> 00:07:00,270 Is is do they understand what a Pmo's role is or what the 132 00:07:00,270 --> 00:07:03,510 project manager's role is? So having that buy in and 133 00:07:03,510 --> 00:07:07,710 support at the top level does help immensely for project 134 00:07:07,710 --> 00:07:09,270 managers who are just finding their way. 135 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,160 But there is things that you could do as well to really kind 136 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,520 of kick start the the implementation of strategy that 137 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,480 goes along with execution. And it's really just like you 138 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:20,280 said, I think you hit a lot of the points there. 139 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,720 It's really networking with people outside of your core 140 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:24,560 group. Start speaking with the 141 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:26,520 marketing department. Start speaking with the business 142 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:28,640 developers. Really figure out what the pain 143 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,600 points are in your organization. I think if you start treating it 144 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,560 with that perspective, I want to solve the pain points of the 145 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,120 business I'm working for. You're going to get much more 146 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,240 buy in from from people who don't really understand the the, 147 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,720 the total value of project management. 148 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,120 And that's kind of the approach I took was find out what where 149 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,320 people are really struggling, where they're having friction 150 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,160 either from a communication point of view and being able to 151 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,000 connect the dots. I think PM's are really good at 152 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,440 connecting the dots and it's just just sharing that across 153 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,320 the board. And and one more question around 154 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,760 your journey, because I'm just so curious about how you see 155 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,640 this because you went PM and then you went to an operations 156 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:06,360 role and that kind of back to PM, right? 157 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,560 How does that translate, how, how did that translate for you? 158 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,160 Do you feel that they were, they were kind of in the same 159 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,200 wheelhouse or did you have to kind of make some shifts to be 160 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,360 able to get into more of an operational role versus APM 161 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:22,880 role? Just curious about that. 162 00:08:23,490 --> 00:08:27,170 Yeah, it's a great question. I feel we're all pretty much 163 00:08:27,170 --> 00:08:29,970 accidental PM regardless of what we do. 164 00:08:29,970 --> 00:08:33,370 You could be pretty much any role and it's really just taking 165 00:08:33,370 --> 00:08:35,730 a series of processes and executing on them. 166 00:08:36,210 --> 00:08:38,289 What's a little bit different on the operations front, it's it's 167 00:08:38,289 --> 00:08:40,650 a lot of repeatable stuff. So you're continuously doing the 168 00:08:40,650 --> 00:08:42,809 same things and you're kind of optimizing them. 169 00:08:42,809 --> 00:08:46,890 So think more 6 Sigma type of type of a role, but there's a 170 00:08:46,890 --> 00:08:49,570 lot of project management that could be applied to operations, 171 00:08:49,570 --> 00:08:51,890 especially when you're working in a startup where everything 172 00:08:51,890 --> 00:08:55,670 pretty much is new. And I think using that kind of 173 00:08:55,670 --> 00:08:58,350 terminology and kind of using either predictive or agile, 174 00:08:58,350 --> 00:09:01,790 whatever you want to kind of enforce the project, project 175 00:09:01,790 --> 00:09:04,350 management could really be applied to any rule that's 176 00:09:04,350 --> 00:09:06,790 awesome, definitely transferable skills. 177 00:09:06,790 --> 00:09:09,790 And I I heard that and as you were describing kind of the the 178 00:09:09,790 --> 00:09:11,230 differences between the two roles. 179 00:09:11,230 --> 00:09:14,110 So I think for those that are listening, that's also helpful 180 00:09:14,110 --> 00:09:16,830 to take note of is that there's a lot of transferable skills. 181 00:09:16,830 --> 00:09:19,990 So if you find that you're on your own journey and you love 182 00:09:19,990 --> 00:09:23,880 process improvement, maybe think about operations, right. 183 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,240 And then and consider what Giuliano's saying. 184 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:30,160 If you like kind of the creating and and the repetitive nature of 185 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,640 of some of the things that you can create and implement at an 186 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,120 organization to find efficiencies, then maybe that's 187 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,440 that's the role for you. But definitely kind of start to 188 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,040 be in tune with what you like about project management and 189 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,080 then you can find a path like Giuliano has. 190 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:49,360 So I I know when we were talking about the concept of this 191 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,920 episode, you shared with me a few tidbits around educational 192 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:54,480 initiatives that you're working on. 193 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,640 And so I think that really was obviously attractive to me in 194 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,320 the sense that I am also an educator on the side. 195 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,280 But I want to kind of start to go segue into that part of the 196 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:07,600 conversation around the educational initiatives that 197 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,920 you're working on and essentially what are you 198 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,160 launching? How does that translate to 199 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,160 project management, give us the whole spiel around and what's 200 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,990 going on in that world? Totally, yeah. 201 00:10:17,990 --> 00:10:22,030 So one thing we noticed is from a context perspective, we were 202 00:10:22,030 --> 00:10:24,310 noticing 2 things, at least I was noticing one. 203 00:10:24,950 --> 00:10:28,150 Given the popularity of the PMO, we were starting to get a bunch 204 00:10:28,150 --> 00:10:30,990 of requests for project work. So expertise of project 205 00:10:30,990 --> 00:10:34,710 management, while that is a great problem to have overall, 206 00:10:34,990 --> 00:10:38,030 we were starting to notice that we were becoming the bottleneck 207 00:10:38,030 --> 00:10:40,830 in a lot of things. So and and that's something we 208 00:10:40,830 --> 00:10:43,510 don't want and in any stretch of the imagination we want to be 209 00:10:43,510 --> 00:10:46,730 able to execute efficiently. Which wasn't possible with the 210 00:10:46,770 --> 00:10:51,330 with the demand currently there and two the level of requests 211 00:10:51,330 --> 00:10:53,690 coming in kind of were all different flavors. 212 00:10:53,690 --> 00:10:57,170 It was massive enterprise level stuff but there's also a lot of 213 00:10:57,170 --> 00:10:59,810 little tiny stuff. And then speaking with my boss 214 00:10:59,810 --> 00:11:02,650 who was who is the VP of Operations, she actually came up 215 00:11:02,650 --> 00:11:05,490 with that with an idea that really sparked the interest in 216 00:11:05,490 --> 00:11:09,690 me is why not teach this that the PM skill set to to to others 217 00:11:09,690 --> 00:11:11,450 so they can actually run their own projects. 218 00:11:11,900 --> 00:11:14,620 So effectively we're scaling project management without 219 00:11:14,620 --> 00:11:17,340 increasing the head count, which is I thought a brilliant move. 220 00:11:18,660 --> 00:11:20,300 Yeah, that's a mindblown moment for sure. 221 00:11:20,300 --> 00:11:21,940 And it was really. Yeah. 222 00:11:21,940 --> 00:11:24,060 And it was really us. So what we we kind of, I 223 00:11:24,060 --> 00:11:25,780 basically took it and I ran with it. 224 00:11:25,780 --> 00:11:30,300 So I we created a program called the PMO Collab and you can think 225 00:11:30,300 --> 00:11:33,260 of it as a ten session interactive course where we 226 00:11:33,660 --> 00:11:36,300 started a pilot last year anybody who was interested in 227 00:11:36,300 --> 00:11:38,830 enrolling. And we basically took those core 228 00:11:38,830 --> 00:11:41,470 competencies, it could be timeline management, could be 229 00:11:41,470 --> 00:11:44,070 dealing with this difficult customers, it could be 230 00:11:44,070 --> 00:11:45,950 stakeholder management, things like that. 231 00:11:46,350 --> 00:11:50,430 And we started to teach that to the company and we split the 232 00:11:50,430 --> 00:11:53,150 session up into two. So the first part of the session 233 00:11:53,150 --> 00:11:56,750 is lecture format, where it was me and my team kind of doing a 234 00:11:56,750 --> 00:11:58,990 PowerPoint, teaching others kind of the skill set. 235 00:11:59,510 --> 00:12:02,630 And then the second part using Zoom or Google me or whatever we 236 00:12:02,670 --> 00:12:05,790 we broke up into virtual teams and they kind of applied the 237 00:12:05,790 --> 00:12:09,150 skill they learned to a mock project or mock scenario. 238 00:12:09,870 --> 00:12:14,270 And if you Fast forward to today the the actual program became 239 00:12:14,270 --> 00:12:16,950 massively popular. It's almost 20% of the 240 00:12:17,030 --> 00:12:19,670 organization is a part of this collab now. 241 00:12:20,390 --> 00:12:22,350 We actually created an additional level. 242 00:12:22,670 --> 00:12:25,870 So we have kind of level ones, PM 101 and now we have a little 243 00:12:25,870 --> 00:12:28,230 bit more of an advanced tactics type of thing. 244 00:12:29,090 --> 00:12:31,890 And then just to create a little bit of a gamification to it as 245 00:12:31,890 --> 00:12:35,850 well, we we do a final exam for the people who complete each of 246 00:12:35,850 --> 00:12:39,490 the 10 sessions and if they pass it, we give them kind of an 247 00:12:39,490 --> 00:12:42,490 honorary badge, they can kind of put in their e-mail signatures, 248 00:12:42,490 --> 00:12:44,130 share on LinkedIn, things like that. 249 00:12:44,130 --> 00:12:47,930 But the program has really been a massive success for us. 250 00:12:48,570 --> 00:12:54,250 I if you're watching this video like my smile just like grew all 251 00:12:54,250 --> 00:12:58,500 the way to this corners of my face that it is amazing. 252 00:12:58,500 --> 00:13:02,260 That is incredible to hear such a great use case, such an 253 00:13:02,260 --> 00:13:06,820 innovative and creative way to expand the PM knowledge without 254 00:13:06,820 --> 00:13:10,860 to your point, without having to hire actual project managers. 255 00:13:10,860 --> 00:13:15,740 And it's a great way to kind of share the knowledge but also 256 00:13:15,740 --> 00:13:20,650 bring a new perspective to those who may or may not have 257 00:13:20,650 --> 00:13:23,690 necessarily seen the value of what project management can do. 258 00:13:23,770 --> 00:13:29,330 So I love that idea. I am probably gonna steal it. 259 00:13:29,330 --> 00:13:31,330 No, I don't know, steals. Probably not the right word. 260 00:13:31,330 --> 00:13:33,930 Maybe I'll borrow a few influences from what you just 261 00:13:33,930 --> 00:13:35,930 shared. But I I love that idea and I 262 00:13:35,930 --> 00:13:39,010 love that you're you shared that it's working out well and it's 263 00:13:39,010 --> 00:13:41,290 being well received by the organization. 264 00:13:42,010 --> 00:13:44,450 Yeah, totally. And and and just to kind of add 265 00:13:44,450 --> 00:13:46,450 a little bit more to that because in terms of the 266 00:13:46,450 --> 00:13:49,970 benefits, it's not just teaching people about PM, which is the 267 00:13:49,970 --> 00:13:52,450 big core of it. And two, it's really getting 268 00:13:52,450 --> 00:13:55,730 people to start talking with the same language as well. 269 00:13:55,730 --> 00:13:58,170 So when we're working on a project and we're talking about 270 00:13:58,170 --> 00:14:02,370 UAT or we're talking about scope or requirements, everybody kind 271 00:14:02,370 --> 00:14:04,170 of understands right away what that is. 272 00:14:04,490 --> 00:14:07,250 So less time focused on kind of getting alignment on the 273 00:14:07,250 --> 00:14:10,830 terminology. More time focused on the actual 274 00:14:10,830 --> 00:14:13,110 getting things done, which is the most important part of 275 00:14:13,110 --> 00:14:16,150 project management And then three, which is actually a 276 00:14:16,150 --> 00:14:20,190 downstream kind of importance that I find is we're actually 277 00:14:20,190 --> 00:14:23,510 creating an active internal pipeline of potential project 278 00:14:23,510 --> 00:14:26,310 managers in the organization. So whenever the need arises 279 00:14:26,310 --> 00:14:29,150 where we have an additional head count, that opens up and the 280 00:14:29,150 --> 00:14:32,830 person actually sees project management as a potential role 281 00:14:32,830 --> 00:14:35,380 for them in the future. We already kind of trained them 282 00:14:35,380 --> 00:14:38,060 where the stakes are really low so they can come in when they 283 00:14:38,060 --> 00:14:40,900 hit the ground running instead of bringing in someone who you 284 00:14:40,900 --> 00:14:43,180 potentially may or may not have a good culture fit. 285 00:14:43,620 --> 00:14:46,980 I you it was that was perfect. You read my mind that was gonna 286 00:14:46,980 --> 00:14:48,900 be. My question was did it then 287 00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:53,540 start to motivate folks to wanna actually be project managers? 288 00:14:53,540 --> 00:14:55,140 And it sounds like that is the case. 289 00:14:55,140 --> 00:14:58,530 Or at least it gives them opportunity or pipeline to be 290 00:14:58,530 --> 00:15:01,090 able to do so, which is which is also fantastic. 291 00:15:01,090 --> 00:15:05,330 So were there any downsides to the program in terms of you 292 00:15:05,330 --> 00:15:10,650 know, just everything that we do is always, you know, usually met 293 00:15:10,650 --> 00:15:13,250 with some sort of opposition. Was there anything like that 294 00:15:13,250 --> 00:15:15,970 that was happening as you're trying to stand this program up 295 00:15:15,970 --> 00:15:18,890 or did it kind of execute pretty flawlessly for you? 296 00:15:19,500 --> 00:15:21,420 I would say it was pretty flawlessly. 297 00:15:21,420 --> 00:15:24,020 I would say the only I would say potential downside or or at 298 00:15:24,020 --> 00:15:27,260 least early on was the opportunity cost of it, right. 299 00:15:27,260 --> 00:15:30,980 It's it's it's not an easy undertaking to to do so it takes 300 00:15:30,980 --> 00:15:34,540 up a lot of my time and my team's time and also each of the 301 00:15:34,540 --> 00:15:37,980 participants has to dedicate a couple hours a month to to 302 00:15:37,980 --> 00:15:41,140 attend these sessions. So a small investment overall, 303 00:15:41,140 --> 00:15:43,540 but it's, it's something you have to get buying from 304 00:15:43,540 --> 00:15:46,910 management and whatnot of each of, of the participants, sure. 305 00:15:46,910 --> 00:15:48,910 I mean and again a project in itself, right. 306 00:15:48,910 --> 00:15:52,990 So a good use case to also to train folks on is, is just the 307 00:15:52,990 --> 00:15:57,150 creation of this actual program. I'm also curious about where you 308 00:15:57,310 --> 00:16:00,990 are drawing the curriculum from. Are you are you teaching around 309 00:16:00,990 --> 00:16:04,830 the organization's methodologies around project management or is 310 00:16:04,830 --> 00:16:09,710 this kind of a broader perspective from the global PMI 311 00:16:09,710 --> 00:16:12,510 or where where your sources coming from that you're training 312 00:16:12,510 --> 00:16:14,350 folks on? Yeah, totally. 313 00:16:14,350 --> 00:16:17,990 It's so we, we treat ourselves as kind of PM methodology 314 00:16:17,990 --> 00:16:20,630 agnostic. So we don't really kind of go to 315 00:16:20,630 --> 00:16:22,910 one versus the other. It's kind of what's the 316 00:16:22,910 --> 00:16:24,630 project's. The first question we asked to 317 00:16:24,630 --> 00:16:26,710 see the type of methodology to apply. 318 00:16:27,310 --> 00:16:30,350 But yeah, you're 100% correct. It's really looking at it from a 319 00:16:30,510 --> 00:16:34,280 kind of a global view. And and we have people, we have 320 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,160 scrum masters who attend, we have product product managers 321 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,240 attend. So we want to make it as broad 322 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:43,920 as possible and not focus too much on the terminology to kind 323 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,080 of constrain people. And I think that's a big thing 324 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,560 with a lot of PM's, right. It's being as collaborative as 325 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,440 possible versus kind of red tape, red tape, red tape. 326 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:54,360 Gotcha. Gotcha. 327 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:59,720 And how do you feel that this program has impacted your PMO? 328 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:04,670 Has it strengthen the the value of the PMOII would assume, but I 329 00:17:04,670 --> 00:17:08,069 mean is there anything else that you kind of saw as a residual 330 00:17:08,069 --> 00:17:09,869 impact that's happened with the PMO? 331 00:17:10,790 --> 00:17:13,750 I think for the most part internally it's been very 332 00:17:13,750 --> 00:17:16,470 impactful. So it gives our, it gives my 333 00:17:16,470 --> 00:17:19,910 team specifically the opportunity to share their 334 00:17:19,910 --> 00:17:22,150 expertise to the to the wider company. 335 00:17:22,150 --> 00:17:25,190 So I think just the fulfillment of being a teacher versus just 336 00:17:25,190 --> 00:17:28,990 executing all the time is a really great change of pace. 337 00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:32,100 And they kind of asked me all the time when we're doing a new 338 00:17:32,100 --> 00:17:33,460 session, like, could I lead this one? 339 00:17:33,460 --> 00:17:35,300 Could I lead that one? Could I lead that topic? 340 00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:38,420 So it's creating that environment of continuous 341 00:17:38,420 --> 00:17:41,100 learning and continuous improvement, which I think is an 342 00:17:41,100 --> 00:17:43,260 awesome thing to see. That's so great. 343 00:17:43,300 --> 00:17:45,300 I love it so much. Again, grinning. 344 00:17:45,300 --> 00:17:48,860 Again, just listening to this entire journey is amazing and 345 00:17:48,860 --> 00:17:52,620 and I think a lot of folks will benefit from just hearing the 346 00:17:52,620 --> 00:17:55,940 successes that you're seeing in the creation of this. 347 00:17:55,940 --> 00:18:00,060 And it just came from that idea, right from your VPO, which is 348 00:18:00,060 --> 00:18:01,620 great. And you, you went in and 349 00:18:01,620 --> 00:18:04,700 executed everything. So I think Giuliano, I I'm 350 00:18:04,700 --> 00:18:10,300 curious because we don't, it's rare that we have PMO directors 351 00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:12,940 come on and be guests on on the podcast. 352 00:18:12,940 --> 00:18:17,620 So in your role I don't know if you've been hearing about all 353 00:18:17,620 --> 00:18:21,660 this chatter around PMO's are evolving and kind of how they're 354 00:18:21,660 --> 00:18:23,860 they're kind of shifting and same thing with the role of 355 00:18:23,860 --> 00:18:26,630 project manager. There's lots of conversation 356 00:18:26,630 --> 00:18:30,750 around how we are project leaders or however you want to 357 00:18:30,750 --> 00:18:32,630 you want to portray our roles today. 358 00:18:33,030 --> 00:18:36,510 Do you have you heard of any of that chatter and and I promised 359 00:18:36,510 --> 00:18:38,630 you I wouldn't ask you anything where I didn't think you would 360 00:18:38,630 --> 00:18:41,750 have a response to this. But now I'm just curious, have 361 00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:44,830 you heard any of that chatter and if you have, do you have a 362 00:18:44,830 --> 00:18:48,470 perspective on on it and and where you think PMO's are going? 363 00:18:49,170 --> 00:18:51,810 Yeah it's it's been on my mind quite often to be honest. 364 00:18:52,290 --> 00:18:55,250 It's it's we're in a constant state of disruption, the project 365 00:18:55,250 --> 00:18:59,730 management world in particular. So that's why I'm I'm really 366 00:18:59,730 --> 00:19:04,210 encouraging my team and and the PMO within our organization to 367 00:19:04,210 --> 00:19:06,930 focus more on the transformation side of things because 368 00:19:07,450 --> 00:19:10,170 disruptions not just happening on a PMO level, it's happening 369 00:19:10,170 --> 00:19:12,850 at A at a global level in a way and we want to be. 370 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,520 The kind of the engine that drives change and be change 371 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,840 leaders in a way. So that's kind of that's kind of 372 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,760 how I'm positioning the role when speaking to other people 373 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,440 within my organization. So I I I call ourselves change 374 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,920 agents, transformation leaders and project managers. 375 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,800 But I really want to get that message across that you could, 376 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:34,920 you could leverage us for a bunch of different ways. 377 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:37,920 But yeah, it's definitely a time where you we're going to have to 378 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:39,320 pivot. I think everyone's going to have 379 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,400 to pivot as as project managers and PMO leaders. 380 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,600 And really see what are ways that we could tap into to value 381 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,720 that's quite different than the traditional world that yeah, 382 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:55,120 that sounds fantastic. I think you're you're trying to 383 00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:59,360 progress in the direction that the the water is flowing, right. 384 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:01,960 So you're you're trying to be a little bit ahead of that in fact 385 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,880 and then the way that you've responded to that question 386 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,880 because I think there's just a lot of organizations who are 387 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:16,300 struggling with adapting. And and that doesn't seem to be 388 00:20:16,300 --> 00:20:20,100 your perspective at all which which is fantastic in in this 389 00:20:20,100 --> 00:20:26,180 time where the environment is disruptive, it is changing and 390 00:20:26,180 --> 00:20:29,220 we have to make a decision whether or not we are going to 391 00:20:29,220 --> 00:20:32,540 evolve with that. And I, everybody who's 392 00:20:32,540 --> 00:20:35,220 listening, I think that's such a great perspective to have to 393 00:20:35,220 --> 00:20:39,100 focus on transformation, to learn all you can on change 394 00:20:39,100 --> 00:20:42,500 management and all of those things that are becoming much 395 00:20:42,500 --> 00:20:47,260 more relevant in this, in this day and age of PMO's where 396 00:20:47,540 --> 00:20:51,300 you're not just kind of divvying out projects, you know, that's 397 00:20:51,300 --> 00:20:53,420 kind of the old school way of looking at a PMO. 398 00:20:53,420 --> 00:20:56,060 You become much more, it sounds like there's so many more 399 00:20:56,060 --> 00:20:58,140 services that your PMO is offering. 400 00:20:58,140 --> 00:21:01,420 That might not have been the case in the last five or even 10 401 00:21:01,420 --> 00:21:03,780 years. Yeah, very much so. 402 00:21:03,780 --> 00:21:07,620 And just another example of that is most PMO's, if you look at it 403 00:21:07,620 --> 00:21:09,380 from a traditional sense, they kind of. 404 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,840 Put some red tape around. These are the type of tools you 405 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,240 have to use for the project. You have to use this scope, 406 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,760 document, et cetera. What we're doing is we're 407 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,480 building more of a list of of best practices. 408 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:22,200 You can use these tools if you want. 409 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,240 They're available for you company wide. 410 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:25,880 We're not going to force you to use them. 411 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,800 If they if you feel you have a better way of doing it, by all 412 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:30,800 means go ahead. So I think it's that 413 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,880 collaborative approach that PMOS have to start taking and be more 414 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,160 consider yourselves more a partner to other functions 415 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,920 versus this this overseeing overbearing entity which is 416 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,720 traditional, such a great point, such a great point. 417 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,240 Any other words of wisdom Giuliano, you want to leave with 418 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,520 our audience. I mean, I could probably kind of 419 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,720 nitpick and pick your brain about this this topic for for 420 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,880 hours, but I I think our time is up for today, but anything else 421 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,080 that you wanted to share? Yeah, of course. 422 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,240 I would just leave you with just embrace change. 423 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,040 I think that's very important as as PMO leaders, as project 424 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:10,200 managers embrace the change. With change comes opportunity 425 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,000 and and kind of a role with it be agile and IT be an agile 426 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,560 thinker and then it kind of use that to kind of shape where your 427 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:18,400 career is going to be and where your PMO is going to be. 428 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,000 I wish there was a day where we could work together. 429 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,790 I just. I feel like already, yes, 430 00:22:25,790 --> 00:22:27,270 exactly. That is very true. 431 00:22:27,270 --> 00:22:29,510 I think you never know. And we are essentially working 432 00:22:29,510 --> 00:22:32,750 together on this episode and it's been truly an honor and a 433 00:22:32,750 --> 00:22:35,430 pleasure to get to know you over this, the course of this 434 00:22:35,430 --> 00:22:37,910 discussion. I think that you're doing such 435 00:22:37,910 --> 00:22:39,510 great things for your organization. 436 00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:43,110 And I I just think that if if I was on your team, I would just 437 00:22:43,110 --> 00:22:46,490 be constantly passionate about what we're doing and and where 438 00:22:46,490 --> 00:22:48,610 we're going. So thank you for sharing your 439 00:22:48,610 --> 00:22:51,930 insights with our audience. Thank you for sharing that 440 00:22:52,330 --> 00:22:55,530 amazing program that you have running at your organization. 441 00:22:55,530 --> 00:22:57,970 I definitely am going to take some cues from what you guys are 442 00:22:57,970 --> 00:23:00,410 doing as well. So folks want to continue the 443 00:23:00,410 --> 00:23:03,610 conversation with you, Giuliano, on any of these topics that we 444 00:23:03,610 --> 00:23:06,050 discussed today. Where can they find you online? 445 00:23:06,860 --> 00:23:10,460 For sure you can either find me online on LinkedIn, you can just 446 00:23:10,460 --> 00:23:12,180 look for my name and then find me there. 447 00:23:12,940 --> 00:23:16,060 But I also recently started a substack publication called 448 00:23:16,060 --> 00:23:18,660 Relentless Velocity where I talk about a lot of this stuff we 449 00:23:18,660 --> 00:23:21,340 talked about today, business transformation and hyper growth. 450 00:23:21,940 --> 00:23:25,580 And you can find me at relentlessvelocity.substack.com. 451 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,400 I will definitely make sure all the appropriate links to contact 452 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,720 you are available as well so that our everyday PM audience 453 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,520 can find you. You can also find me on LinkedIn 454 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:36,720 as well. If you want to continue the 455 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,840 conversation with me. While you're there, support the 456 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,640 Everyday PM podcast by giving us a 5 star review. 457 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,240 If you're listening to us on the Apple podcast or whatever 458 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,960 podcasting platform you are listening on, we're available on 459 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,360 Spotify, Google Play, Breaker, Overcast. 460 00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:53,760 Just search for the Everyday PM. You should be able to find the 461 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,170 podcast there. You can watch the video version 462 00:23:56,170 --> 00:23:58,850 of this on my YouTube channel. You can see how big I was 463 00:23:58,850 --> 00:24:02,250 grinning as Giuliani was going through his use case example 464 00:24:02,250 --> 00:24:04,130 because I just think it's incredible. 465 00:24:04,610 --> 00:24:07,490 Watch the video version of this on my YouTube channel 466 00:24:07,490 --> 00:24:11,050 youtube.com/and Campia. While you're there, take a 467 00:24:11,050 --> 00:24:13,770 moment to like this video. Subscribe to the channel and 468 00:24:13,770 --> 00:24:17,250 click the notifications bell to know when new content goes up. 469 00:24:17,930 --> 00:24:21,250 So that will do it for Giuliano and I and this installment of 470 00:24:21,250 --> 00:24:24,760 the Everyday PM Podcast. Thank you everybody for joining 471 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,400 us and until next time, take care.