1 00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:12,960 Welcome to the Everyday PM Podcast, the podcast where we 2 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:15,840 discuss project management principles for your everyday 3 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:17,960 life. My name is Anne Campia. 4 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:21,280 I'm a certified project manager. I also come with experience in 5 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,760 various industries including healthcare, tech, marketing, you 6 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,280 name it. I think I've had a awesome time 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,360 experiencing being a project manager in any of those 8 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:32,680 industries. I'm currently the VP of project 9 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,440 Management and Operations over at True Sense Marketing. 10 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,600 I'm so excited to welcome our very special guest, Corey Cogan, 11 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,400 who is Franklin Covey's Vice President of content and senior 12 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,960 consultant, as well as the co-author of project management 13 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,120 for the Unofficial Project Manager. 14 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,880 Corey, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us 15 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,040 today. Thank you and for having me, 16 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,720 it's a delight to be here. And I wanted to obviously dive 17 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,120 into the details of not just the book, but of your professional 18 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,080 journey. But before we get started with 19 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,040 today's conversation, why don't you take a brief moment to 20 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:07,560 introduce yourself to our audience? 21 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:09,280 Well. Thank you for that. 22 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,240 And again, like you said, I, I've been with Frank Mcgovy for 23 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:14,680 hard to believe almost 18 years now. 24 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:21,560 Time has flown and I bring I, I guess my claim to fame is I 25 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:26,480 bring an executive on the street background to Franklin Covey. 26 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:31,280 So been around the block around executive leadership, project 27 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,320 management, all those kinds of things and having the 28 00:01:33,320 --> 00:01:36,720 opportunity to blend all of that with the principles of Franklin 29 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:40,000 Covey has been a gift. You might tell from my accent, 30 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,400 I'm born and raised in New York City, but I live in Tucson, AZ 31 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:50,080 and I've held many positions around training, project 32 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,720 management, sales. And here we are. 33 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,240 Here we are today working on lots of things around 34 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,720 leadership, project management, sales, etcetera. 35 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:01,280 So it's just a delight to be here. 36 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,800 And this book has been really unbelievably successful. 37 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,720 A surprise to us as how how important it's been for 38 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,800 unofficial project managers. So real, real delight to be able 39 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:13,560 to talk about it today with you. Yeah. 40 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,320 And our audience, you know, is project managers, non 41 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,640 traditional, traditional, whatever you want to call it. 42 00:02:18,640 --> 00:02:21,320 So I think what was most attractive to me about the 43 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,040 title, even the title of the book is you. 44 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,080 You speak about project managers, but unofficial project 45 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,680 managers, which you know in in today's world and kind of coming 46 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:34,240 up as APMA, lot of us fell into project management accidentally, 47 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,800 unofficially. And so I appreciate that you've 48 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,760 provided that viewpoint, not just as a part of your book, but 49 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,240 it sounds like it's part of your professional journey as well. 50 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,120 That's true. I'd like to say that I'm a 51 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,720 scarred unofficial project manager. 52 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,520 I previously was the executive vice president of worldwide 53 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,560 operations for a global franchise organization and 54 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,760 coming up, you know, in that organization, just doing these 55 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:05,720 big projects like implementing ISO 9000 globally and A and a 56 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:07,480 worldwide learning management system. 57 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:11,880 You don't, you need to be an engineer or a, you know, APMP to 58 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,000 do that. You just in this day and age of 59 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,320 knowledge workers, we were paid to think, innovate and create 60 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,680 and execute. We're asked to do these big 61 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:24,280 things and don't realize these are projects and along the way 62 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,840 without having, you know, little a little extra knowledge, we 63 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,240 push our ways through and we get the job done. 64 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,840 But with with a few scars, unless we know just a few things 65 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,040 that really make a difference. Let me ask you something 'cause 66 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,240 I'm curious you, you said you took on a lot of these projects 67 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:46,000 and you know, at some point was there an aha moment where you 68 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,440 said, wait a minute, All of the things I've been doing on these 69 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:54,200 massive projects that I've taken on exemplifies all of the skills 70 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,680 that are being looked at for a project manager. 71 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:00,560 Was there that moment where you went from I'm an unofficial 72 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,920 project manager to wait? I'm actually project managing 73 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:10,160 this this project. There, there were a couple. 74 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:14,480 I, I, I sort of knew early on that it, I mean, I knew it was a 75 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:19,399 project, but I didn't have knowledge really of the official 76 00:04:19,399 --> 00:04:24,520 processes of project management TMI and you know, all of that. 77 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:29,400 The most interesting one, I know this will be a little 78 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:34,520 surprising, but relatable for people is when I was doing this 79 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,200 implementation of ISO 9000 and my boss, who was the CEO of the 80 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,680 company, kept saying to me, Corey, Are you sure? 81 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,320 You you should we get a consultant to help you because, 82 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,840 you know, all these pieces are going to come together and 83 00:04:48,840 --> 00:04:50,320 you're going to sort of get crushed. 84 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,920 And, and I'm like, Oh no, I've got, you know, I've got this, 85 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,920 you know, kind of, and I didn't. And that day came where I got 86 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,600 crushed and he, he almost lovingly fired me. 87 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,320 He didn't. But that was a big aha, that I 88 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:06,400 finally was paying attention to the fact that there were systems 89 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:10,920 and processes in place that could make my life easier. 90 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,800 And then, you know, as the years went by, particularly at 91 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,120 Franklin Covey, you know, sort of understanding and learning 92 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,120 more about official project management and the understanding 93 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:26,600 that you can distill things from that to put into play in our 94 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:31,280 day-to-day work started to started to rise to the top for 95 00:05:31,280 --> 00:05:33,520 me. And being that scarred from that 96 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:38,080 episode, I was all about looking for how do I make things easier 97 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,400 because this is more of my day-to-day job than I thought. 98 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,480 Yeah, yeah, I hear you. By the way, ISO 9000 for those 99 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,760 that don't understand them, massive complexity of a project 100 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,000 like that. Corey, I'm just in awe that you 101 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,000 said, don't worry, I got it because that's a big project. 102 00:05:55,280 --> 00:05:58,720 But I think, you know, going along the lines of you, you hit 103 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,600 some of these bumps that eventually made you look further 104 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,000 into, are there foundational things from a project management 105 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,760 perspective that I can start to capture as part of how I manage 106 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:11,640 these types of projects moving forward? 107 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,360 You know, can you share some more of those pitfalls that you 108 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,760 see happening as you know, folks do take on these unofficial 109 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,840 project management type roles and that type of work, some of 110 00:06:21,840 --> 00:06:23,920 the other pitfalls that they might see? 111 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,760 I know that personally, I've had to take my bumps as well just to 112 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:29,640 get those experiences under my belt. 113 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:37,320 Well, the interesting thing is and for whether you're a small 114 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,600 business or a medium business or a large business. 115 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:41,920 So I'll go back to what I said before. 116 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,560 We are all now many of us are knowledge workers paid to think, 117 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,360 innovate, create and execute. Do you know, excuse me? 118 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,440 And we don't, we've slipped into this role. 119 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,960 Sometimes we don't even, we're not even aware of it. 120 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,880 And so wherever I go around the world, I'll ask the question, 121 00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:01,600 I'll I'll say, hey, let's bring storm. 122 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,120 What are some of the challenges of projects? 123 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:08,760 And the same things come up over and over and over again. 124 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,920 Goals aren't clear or the objectives aren't clear. 125 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:14,760 We don't have right good communication. 126 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,960 We Scope Creek is, you know, a favorite one and we get this, 127 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,320 this list of failures. Why do projects fail? 128 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:28,440 That is consistent. I could be in Rwanda or Dubai or 129 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,360 the UK or the United States. I have gotten the same list 130 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:36,880 every single time and it's become normalized. 131 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:42,440 So a lot of workers, whether you're a leader or an individual 132 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,000 contributor, we are 80. If you think about it, we don't 133 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,400 have project manager on our business card or in our 134 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,760 signature on our e-mail, but most of the work we're doing has 135 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,280 a beginning and an end. It's a it's, it's a project. 136 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,360 And so but we wake up and we go to work, whether you are the 137 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:03,400 leader or you are on a project team and you're like, OK, 138 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,240 there's not going to be clear objectives. 139 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:06,960 There's not going to be good communication. 140 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,800 We're going to have the wrong roles for, you know, etcetera. 141 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:14,040 And it's just become normalized. And the cost of that is 142 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,560 overwhelming. I mean, overwhelming until 143 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:21,000 people realize, wait a minute, all those challenges or why the 144 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,240 project fail, I can do something about it. 145 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:27,880 So it just sort of comes upon US versus this consciousness 146 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,400 around, Oh my goodness, I'm unofficial. 147 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:32,159 It's like, no, wait, I'm unofficial. 148 00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:34,200 I didn't realize it. And there's something I can do 149 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,600 about it and make people's lives better by minimizing some of 150 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,799 these failures or reasons for failure that just had become 151 00:08:40,799 --> 00:08:42,080 normalized. Yeah. 152 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,320 So did you find as you started to pick up on these trends that 153 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,640 it helped kind of frame your perspective on how you wanted to 154 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,440 manage projects through start to finish? 155 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,160 Does even today and again, you don't have to go. 156 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:57,840 I, I, there's, I mean, I have all the respect in the world 157 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,600 for, you know, project management professionals, BMI 158 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:06,960 and and the other organizations that certified but it it, it 159 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,600 governs. I don't always get my way and it 160 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,560 always doesn't go right. So I'd like to consider myself a 161 00:09:13,560 --> 00:09:17,880 laboratory rat with this stuff, but I am always thinking about 162 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:24,920 and using the principles of project management processes to 163 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:31,120 govern, even today, how I work a project or a part of a project 164 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,120 to try to make my life and other people live people's lives, you 165 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,120 know, easier. Yeah, and and, and it and I 166 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,400 obviously I don't represent PMI, so I shared the same sentiment 167 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:43,720 as you. As you know, you look at PMI as 168 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,920 a governing body and they try to put out publications and other 169 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:51,800 ways, frameworks like agile, hybrid methodologies, waterfall 170 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,680 approaches to help guide project managers. 171 00:09:54,680 --> 00:09:56,840 But essentially what you're saying is true. 172 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,360 It's, you know, you can only get so much from a foundational 173 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:01,720 perspective, understanding the principles. 174 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,520 But when you actually get into the work, that then becomes just 175 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,080 you as the unofficial or official PM to just figure out 176 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,800 what you need to do to overcome and navigate some of those 177 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,520 challenges. And I want to say that's part of 178 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,120 the reason why I loved reading through the way that you've 179 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,600 written this book with your co-author is because it is 180 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,640 practical. It really does get into, you can 181 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,680 tell that yourself and your co-author have been through that 182 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:31,520 grind, have tried to take the principles and apply them in the 183 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:33,240 ways that makes sense for your business. 184 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,240 And so for those who haven't read it yet, I think there's a 185 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,040 lot of value in just reading it from the perspective of people 186 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,240 who have lived through what we've lived through as project 187 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,640 managers and are trying to take some of the standards and things 188 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,040 that PMI is out there promoting. But also understanding that 189 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,520 that's not going to solve the challenges that you have to 190 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:52,280 navigate. It's just going to give you a 191 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,800 little bit of structure, a little bit of guidance on how to 192 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,200 maybe get there and be successful. 193 00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,400 Yeah. And we're endorsed by PMI. 194 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,240 So I mean, people can take our courses and they get credit for 195 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:03,560 that. So we used, I mean, the 196 00:11:03,560 --> 00:11:08,080 principles now with, you know, even with Pimbok, which is 197 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:12,160 their, their, their guidance, you know, we're always on top of 198 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:13,920 that. Moving from six to seven is when 199 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,760 we updated the book and, and updated our course and stuff 200 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,760 like that. It's just taking those things 201 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:24,360 and distilling them down into something usable for somebody 202 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,320 like me who's out there, you know, working on things with 203 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,120 beginning and end most of my, you know, most of my career. 204 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,640 Yeah, agreed, agreed. And do you would you say there 205 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:38,680 are any differences in the skill sets that unofficial project 206 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:43,120 manager should, you know, try to practice on a day-to-day basis 207 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,880 versus somebody who is an official titled project 208 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,280 management role? You know, I think a lot of the 209 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,400 skills are the same. I mean, so you know, our 210 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,040 process, if you think about it, is, you know, we there's five 211 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,720 steps we need to scope the project, we need to plan the 212 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,880 project, we need to engage the people, we need to track and 213 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:03,880 adapt the project that we need to close. 214 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:08,640 So you can tell we took pieces of Timbot 6:00 and 7:00 and we 215 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,720 sort of have this blend of waterfall and agile. 216 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,160 So it's interesting 'cause you sort of do some of these things 217 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,680 intuitively and, and, and you know, 'cause when we scope AI 218 00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:21,320 mean you can think about, you know, a, a big dinner that 219 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:22,880 you're making or a holiday dinner. 220 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,640 You need to plan it. You, you, you need to scope it, 221 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,920 you need to plan it out. You need to engage people to 222 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,200 help you, you need to track everything. 223 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,800 And you know, you need to serve the dinner kind of thing. 224 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,960 So it's interesting how intuitive this is and how, 225 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,680 whether you're an official project manager or an unofficial 226 00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:44,320 1, you are institutionalizing or making really conscious these 227 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,600 skills. What I will tell you and, and 228 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:51,800 really is, is is brought out in the book is two other components 229 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:56,200 besides those things that are sort of skill, one sort of 230 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,880 skills, but one of them is that the process doesn't work by 231 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:03,280 itself. That we say, you know, that the 232 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,240 mindset, which is where we start with skill development, the 233 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:10,440 mindset of a project manager, whether you are official or 234 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:15,680 unofficial, is that it is value plus people plus process. 235 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,560 So particularly, and when we talk about agile and waterfall 236 00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:23,680 agile, meaning we're just more in tune with, are we really 237 00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:28,400 providing value with the end product versus finishing a 238 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,040 product only to find out that it didn't meet the original scope. 239 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,880 That's as simple as, you know, making that definition. 240 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:41,760 But the key to doing that is not the process, it is how a project 241 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:47,680 manager is leading the people that are part of the project 242 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:51,280 team. And that is a major skill 243 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,680 because whether you are a functional leader with actual 244 00:13:55,680 --> 00:14:00,840 direct reports or a matrix leader, which is mainly what 245 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:06,680 projects are, the goal defines the team really in a project you 246 00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:10,560 need to lead with and be skillful in what we call 247 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,840 informal authority. You can't say you have to do it 248 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,320 this way or you're going to be, you know, it's like I don't 249 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,680 report to you. It's how are you inviting people 250 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,920 to want to play on your team and want to play to win? 251 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,560 That is a skill. And that's where we get into 252 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,640 talking about the five behaviors. 253 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,040 Out of all the leadership development things out there, he 254 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,720 can just master the five behaviors that are in the book. 255 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,320 You will go a long way in making people feel like they'd like to 256 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,880 work with you and like to get the job done, which makes 257 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,240 everything much easier. That's the real skill. 258 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:47,880 Corey, are you willing to dive in? 259 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,320 You know, obviously we don't want to give the whole secret 260 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,800 sauce of the recipe to to the audience. 261 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:54,840 I want definitely want them to pick up the book and read it. 262 00:14:54,840 --> 00:15:00,080 But do you want to give an overview of those five behaviors 263 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,040 for for the audience? I'd love to and, and again, 264 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:08,360 remember, you know, a really important thing is, and I'm sure 265 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,600 some of you will relate to this, a lot of people that are running 266 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:19,120 projects made conscious decisions to not lead people in. 267 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,040 And in organizations, you notice there's a leadership track. 268 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,960 Sometimes they call it a genius or a technical track 'cause 269 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,080 they're like, not I'm not into leading people and they lead 270 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,320 projects, but then they end up leading people anyway. 271 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:37,680 Yes, very true. And so that's why I say there's 272 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,240 a ton of leadership development stuff out there, including, you 273 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,760 know, Franklin Covey. It's what we're known for and 274 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,520 for us as unofficial project managers, what we decided was, 275 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,640 you know what, let's just distill down sort of what I was 276 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,040 saying. And this comes from Stephen, Mr. 277 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,320 Covey's work. If you know the speed of trust 278 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,440 body of work out there, he says there's 13 behaviors of high 279 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,160 trust leaders. We narrow that to five. 280 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,840 Here's the five you need to and and they sound easy. 281 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,560 It's like, well, my parents taught me this, but when you're 282 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,840 under pressure stuff and I being, and again, I hate to 283 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,840 stereotype myself, born and raised New York City. 284 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,320 I, I'm an executive. So you can imagine I'm very 285 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:24,040 direct to the point. I, I and, and so I could be 286 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:29,400 abrupt and I could put people off possibly if I'm not careful. 287 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,040 I've had to work on that my entire career. 5 behaviors. 288 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:37,000 First one, demonstrate respect. I, I mean, you real, you know, 289 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,040 again, saying hey, just do it because I said so isn't going to 290 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,480 work for you. It's not going to, it's not 291 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,000 going to invite somebody to volunteer their best efforts. 292 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:49,600 You need to listen. Listen first as we say, and you 293 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,840 need to clarify expectations. And we don't mean clarify 294 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,400 expectations of the project. That's different. 295 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,480 I have been, I've seen this happen where somebody will say, 296 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:02,760 hey, why am I doing this task on the project? 297 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,640 And the project leader will say, don't worry about it. 298 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:07,280 Just do the task. You know, you don't need to 299 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,000 know. And you've, you've turned that 300 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:15,200 into a task that they just want to punch in, punch out, you 301 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,800 know, you're not getting anything extra from them versus 302 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:19,319 saying, oh, I'm so glad you asked. 303 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,720 Here's the purpose of your task and the bigger picture. 304 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,960 And again, I know we're on borrowed time. 305 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,880 There's so much research on people needing to feel purpose 306 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,720 at work and how and how vital that has become anyway. 307 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,760 So clarifying expectations of how each person and their job 308 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:37,800 fits into the bigger scope of the project. 309 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,400 Extend trust. Again, I could go on about each 310 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,240 of these behaviors. Extending trust to others. 311 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:49,040 You have to delegate out the work and not do everything 312 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,360 yourself. Or they need to feel like you 313 00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:54,160 trust them. They'll give you so much when 314 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,800 they feel trusted by you. And then finally, practice 315 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,640 accountability. First of all, you need to be a 316 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,920 model of accountability. So you need to stick to your 317 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:09,120 commitments, but the harder not, but it's an end because first 318 00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:10,960 and foremost, you need to model accountability. 319 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,080 You have to hold people accountability and you have to 320 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:19,080 learn how to do that in front of other people respectfully and 321 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:20,680 how to do it to get the job done. 322 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:25,040 Because if Anne, you show up to the meetings late three times in 323 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:29,640 a row and nothing happens, then I'm like, hey, I don't, I don't 324 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,360 need to, I'm going to go, you know, take my kids to school 325 00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:35,560 because why I there's no repercussions. 326 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,280 So but, but holding accountability without 327 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,640 embarrassing people and doing it in a way that's very 328 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,200 professional. So those are the five behaviors 329 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,720 and they. They tie in so beautifully to 330 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,640 what you said before you went into the overview, which was 331 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:56,440 this idea around value and the project managers, unofficial or 332 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:01,080 official understanding how you can drive the even the concept 333 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,440 of value add of the project to to the team, to the 334 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,800 organization. And I think that coupled with 335 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,680 these five behaviors as of you as a leader, is really kind of 336 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,440 digging into all of the elements that come into play. 337 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,480 If you become an unofficial project manager and are trying 338 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,160 to figure out how to navigate being successful in your role. 339 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,160 I think that that's absolutely some of the secret sauce that we 340 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,200 need to infuse into what we do on a day-to-day basis. 341 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,320 Yeah. And and also for official 342 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,920 project managers because we do a lot of times have official 343 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,760 project managers in our groups and coming to us. 344 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,800 And I would say to anybody that's on this call, they 345 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,320 struggle that I again, I'm, I'm making a big statement here. 346 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,120 They tend to struggle the most. With. 347 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,760 Asking the right questions to get to the value prop. 348 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:54,560 And more importantly, they struggle with the people side. 349 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,400 So the last thing that they need to read about in this book is 350 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,680 how to do a Gantt chart. They know how to do a Gantt 351 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,360 chart. What they really struggle with 352 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,520 official project managers is how do I engage people to do the 353 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,360 work? And that's so. 354 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,240 So this is not just the unofficial project world. 355 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,920 This is across the spectrum. And I, I would love to hear your 356 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,280 perspective kind of just to round out this conversation 357 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,720 around, obviously, you're an executive at Franklin Covey, 358 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,760 you've written this book, you've got the unofficial, even 359 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,760 official experiences as being a project manager throughout your 360 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,520 professional journey. This all leads to how can we be 361 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,880 successful as project managers titled or not? 362 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,000 And what are the things we can do to help ourselves and our 363 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,840 organizations be successful, but ultimately get that value back? 364 00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:45,880 So that's a long way of me asking you, you know, at 365 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,800 Franklin Covey in terms of your role now and as an executive and 366 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,880 knowing the things that you've learned having LED these types 367 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,720 of projects, what are the some of the things that you've 368 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,440 promoted within your organization or that you've seen 369 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:02,040 seen be successful as a result of some of the things that 370 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,760 you've captured in your book? Great question. 371 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,400 And I will continue to say that I'm a laboratory rat and it's 372 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,640 really hard. It doesn't always go the way I 373 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:17,120 want it to go either. And I continue to work at it and 374 00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:21,880 even right now handedly right in the middle of a project that is 375 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:27,600 now paused. And if I think about a 376 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:32,080 retrospective or lessons learned I could have done and we, it's a 377 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,920 big we, right? It's not just me, but we could 378 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:40,160 have done or should have done a better job, a better job front 379 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:44,960 loading. So back in scoping, how could we 380 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,200 have done better? And sometimes you can't. 381 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,400 It's only in the retrospective, which is an important part of 382 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,760 closing a project which we're not up to yet, but is you always 383 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,080 have to look at that and say how could I have done this better to 384 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:01,520 avoid this kind of pause, if you will, you know next time. 385 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:08,640 So what's been successful is again, making sure that you 386 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,960 first of all have the right stakeholders and the right key 387 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:14,840 stakeholders. And we go into that in the book 388 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,960 and by the book, the way the book is really a series of 389 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,680 stories. Speaking of success, it's a 390 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:26,880 series of 3 or 4, like you were reading a novel in addition to 391 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,880 the technical aspects. So it's not this heavy book, but 392 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,160 you're going to see some of these challenges and some of 393 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,840 them are autobiographical. So when you see the story about, 394 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,160 you know, building out a new headquarters for a hybrid, you 395 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,520 know, work environment, that's from my previous experience as 396 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,280 well. So, like many authors, we bury 397 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,800 our angst into, you know. Into what we're. 398 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,680 Into what we're, we're writing, identifying the right key 399 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,000 stakeholders is really key and we give guidance on that because 400 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,280 it's, you know, what's obvious a lot of time are the signers, you 401 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,560 know, who is, holds the budget and you the CEO, you know, 402 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,640 whoever it might be. And we call it the key 403 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,840 stakeholder dance. Who are the decision makers, who 404 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,280 has the authority, who has the need? 405 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,720 Those are obvious. It's the C and the E who has the 406 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:18,120 connections and the energy because those are influencers. 407 00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:22,240 And sometimes we forget about the influencers, both positive 408 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,600 and negative, right? So you have and, and so when 409 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,680 you're looking at key stakeholders and I have people 410 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:34,680 out in the field that I have as influencers because I know those 411 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:39,440 that are going to be the negative, they say you're, I say 412 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,120 that with respect, you know, kind of thing. 413 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:47,120 So really important to make sure you identify all of the possible 414 00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:50,960 stakeholders. And again, it's like Will, this 415 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,440 is going to take time, It's not going to take that much time and 416 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:54,800 it'll save you time in the long run. 417 00:23:55,240 --> 00:24:00,520 But any possible stakeholder in order to then find your group of 418 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:05,240 key stakeholders and not get blindsided down the road, which 419 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,320 I think a lot of us have have handled. 420 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,280 So doing a really good job of that. 421 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,800 And I'll go back to what I said before and what we do with final 422 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,240 cover, asking really good questions, You know, why are we 423 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,600 doing the project? What's the expectation? 424 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,320 What are the goals around it? Really getting to the value of 425 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:27,560 it is, you know, is really key. I, you know, I think that and, 426 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,200 and, and I think what I have to work on the most, particularly 427 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,880 in an agile environment 'cause we write programs. 428 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,280 So, you know, training, learning programs. 429 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,960 We're not doing software development, but this 430 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,040 combination of waterfall and agile has a really important 431 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:48,200 component of today's world. Tracking and adapting is really 432 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,920 important along the way. How do you make sure you're 433 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,600 hitting key stakeholder needs? And again, I'll be the 434 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,760 laboratory rat here and say it's really important to be open 435 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:02,840 minded to making sure with key stakeholders and testing that 436 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,640 you are headed in the wrong direction. 437 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:10,040 Don't get so locked into the scope that that it's immovable. 438 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,920 That's, that's, you know, if you're building a bridge, that's 439 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,200 one thing, but that's not how we operate in today's world of 440 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,240 knowledge work mainly. And I would say I have to work, 441 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:25,480 I always have to work at being open minded to feedback and 442 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,960 feedback loops because I want to just go and that's not, you 443 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:31,680 know, you have to find the sweet spot there. 444 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:36,760 So I think we are good at that. That's a real key to success and 445 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:41,280 knowing where to stop that so you don't get into scopes creep. 446 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,320 Corey, I can I just say that I love how you responded to my 447 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,360 question because you responded to it in the voice and with the 448 00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:53,760 mindset of a project manager who is running their own self 449 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,400 reflection and retrospective on the work that they've done. 450 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,920 So I think in the way that you've portrayed all of the 451 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,880 skill sets, the capabilities, the support that you would need 452 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,720 to be able to understand how to navigate being an unofficial 453 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,920 project manager. In addition to the details and 454 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,440 content of the book that you've now published and then updated 455 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,680 to make sure that it's also staying relevant with, you know, 456 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,960 PMI standards. I think all of that to say, 457 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,360 you've shared just a wealth of knowledge with our audience 458 00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:25,000 today. And I very much appreciate 459 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,360 everything that you've been able to share with us, your insights, 460 00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:31,600 your expertise, as well as the time you've taken out of your 461 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,080 day to spend with us. So is there any closing thoughts 462 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,400 from you as we wrap up our conversation? 463 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,440 You know, I thank you for what you just said. 464 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,960 I, you know, I, I speak all over the world and the last thing I 465 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,440 want to do is be an imposter. So I don't want to get up and 466 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,360 tell everybody what great leadership looks like and what 467 00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:54,200 great project management looks like unless I'm living it. 468 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,120 So I would, I'm a laboratory rat. 469 00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:59,360 I'm human. So, so it's, so I thank you 470 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:04,520 because it's cathartic for me to share, you know, my, my journey 471 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,360 of reality and I people respond to reality more than you know, 472 00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:12,800 you should be a perfect, you know, person, you know, doing 473 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,400 leadership kind of thing. What I, my final comment, 474 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:23,240 project management is all the rage, even with AIAI is not, you 475 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,200 know, there's a lot of it's going to replace. 476 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,080 I the statistics on, yes, it's going to replace X amount of 477 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,800 jobs, but it's going to create even more jobs for humans. 478 00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:35,760 Project. Everything is a project. 479 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,160 Since the pandemic, everything has changed. 480 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,240 New systems are being formed every day. 481 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,440 We're making things every day and project management is the 482 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,400 place to be. So if you haven't tried it yet, 483 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,800 give it a try. And if you're in it, take a deep 484 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,040 breath because it really is the skill set of today and the 485 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,480 future as we continue in the new world of AI. 486 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,600 But the human capability side of project development is key to 487 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,080 all of that working really well. Thank you, Corey, and please 488 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,840 always look at the everyday PM and our audience as your area to 489 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,080 just be your authentic self, which you brought forward to us 490 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,560 today. So we can be that group therapy 491 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,680 for you if you ever want to come back onto the podcast and just 492 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,040 have a real conversation around how it really feels to be a 493 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,040 project manager, unofficial or not. 494 00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:23,560 And I look forward to, if you ever want our planning to do an 495 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,160 update to the book that talks about, you know, how AI and PM 496 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,680 is going to end up being kind of cohesive in the future again. 497 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,920 And you're more than welcome to come back onto the podcast to 498 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,280 share your thoughts on that. So Corey, thank you so much for 499 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,320 taking the time with us today to share your insights as well as 500 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,120 share some of the context of the book. 501 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,320 I'll make sure all of the links are dropped as we drop this 502 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,200 episode so that folks can pick up the book and follow Corey as 503 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,080 well as any other areas that you want to promote Corey. 504 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,400 I'll make sure that those are included in this posting. 505 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,960 So folks want to chat further with you. 506 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,520 Can they find you on LinkedIn or is there another place that they 507 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,080 can connect with you on? Yeah, LinkedIn is the best place 508 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,320 and if you want to learn more about anything Frank and Covey 509 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:11,040 or project management, the book is in the regular sellers and 510 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,480 www.frankandcovey.com. So happy anybody reaches out on 511 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:16,840 LinkedIn. I'm always glad to connect. 512 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,440 Fantastic. So Corey, on behalf of our 513 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,760 audience, thank you again for choosing this platform to share 514 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,320 your insights on. If folks want to follow me, I'm 515 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,800 on LinkedIn as well. And Kanthia, you can also follow 516 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,920 the Everyday PM podcasts on any of your podcasting platforms. 517 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,560 Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, you name it, we're there. 518 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,280 Just search for the everyday PM that will do it for Corey and I 519 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,880 on this instalment of the Everyday PM Podcast. 520 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,080 And until next time, take care.