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You know when you look at an 
X-ray of a broken arm, there's 

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there's a certain comfort in the
precision of it. 

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See the jagged white line? 
The doctor points right to it 

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and the diagnosis is totally 
binary, like it's broken or it's

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not right. 
Yeah, it's safe. 

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We constantly seek out that you 
know that binary simplicity 

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because categorizing the world 
is just comfortable. 

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Exactly. 
But when you step out of the 

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hospital and into the realm of 
human identity in ancient 

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religious law, that desire for a
clean, binary X-ray just 

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completely falls apart. 
You're suddenly navigating this 

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landscape that is well, it's 
profoundly complex. 

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It really is. 
I mean, the moment you try to 

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apply a rigid black and white 
diagnostic lens to something as 

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dynamic as, say, centuries of 
tradition colliding with modern 

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human experience, the tools just
fail. 

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You have to adopt A completely 
different framework. 

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Which is exactly the core 
mission of our deep dive. 

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Today we are taking you into a 
really fascinating stack of 

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sources to explore how 
homosexuality is navigated 

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within the Jewish tradition and 
also the modern state of Israel.

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Yeah, we're unpacking a lot 
today. 

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We really are. 
We've got a historical overview 

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of homosexuality in the Hebrew 
Bible, a pivotal 2006 legal 

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ruling from the Rabbinical 
Assembly, an amazing article 

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from the organization Eschel 
about the struggles of Orthodox 

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parents, and a timeline of LGBTQ
rights in Israel. 

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So we're looking at how an 
ancient religion in a modern 

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nation grapple with tradition, 
human dignity and, you know, 

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lived experience. 
And it's such a layered topic. 

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It is, and before we really get 
into it, I need to state a 

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mandatory impartiality 
disclaimer for you, the 

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listener. 
We are navigating material today

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that touch on deeply held 
religious beliefs and intense 

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political realities from a very 
wide spectrum of viewpoints. 

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So our role today is simply to 
map the territory for you. 

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We are not here to endorse a 
theological stance. 

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Take a political side or, you 
know, validate 1 interpretation 

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over another. 
We are purely tracing the 

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fascinating ideas contained in 
these sources to help you 

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understand this ecosystem. 
And honestly, the evolution of 

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these texts is wild. 
I mean, the way ancient 

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religious laws are being 
reinterpreted today involves A 

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deeply surprising cast of 
character for sure. 

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We're talking about the 
political maneuvers of a 6th 

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century Roman emperor, A forged 
medieval document, and a highly 

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flexible legal loophole built 
directly into the Talmud 

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centuries ago. 
Let's unpack this, because to 

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understand the modern debate, we
really have to start at the very

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foundation right. 
We have to separate what the 

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explicit biblical text actually 
says from the centuries of like 

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political and cultural 
interpretation stacked on top. 

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Of it exactly, the text and the 
interpretation are two very 

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different things. 
Right. 

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So in our sources, the text most
frequently cited are in 

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Leviticus chapters 18 and 20, 
The Holiness Code. 

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And historically, the explicit 
biblical ban here is 

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specifically focused on male 
anal sex. 

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It translates roughly to you 
know, do not lie with a man as 

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one lies with a woman. 
Right, which carried severe 

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penalties historically. 
But a detail that stands out 

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immediately is the profound 
silence regarding women. 

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Like female homosexual relations
aren't explicitly mentioned in 

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the Hebrew Bible at all. 
Which is fascinating because 

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that absence of a prohibition is
just as foundational as a 

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written law. 
I mean, because lesbianism 

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wasn't explicitly addressed, 
later rabbinic scholars had to 

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figure out how to categorize it 
within a system entirely 

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structure around, well, 
patriarchal definitions of sex 

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and property. 
So what do they do with it? 

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They ultimately defined it not 
as a capital offense, but as a 

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lesser rabbinic prohibition. 
They kind of threw it under the 

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umbrella of licentiousness or 
compared it to the quote 

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practices of Egypt. 
Interesting. 

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Yeah, so it created a 
fundamentally different legal 

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and social framework for women 
than for men just because the 

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original text was silent. 
That silence definitely leaves 

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room for interpretation, which 
brings us to the story of Sodom 

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and Gomorrah in Genesis 19. 
I mean, if you ask someone today

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what the sin of Sodom was, 
they'll instinctively say 

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homosexuality, the very word 
sodomy derives from. 

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It right, that's the common 
assumption. 

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But the sources revealed that 
the traditional Jewish view 

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historically saw the city's sin 
as a catastrophic failure of 

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hospitality. 
Like philosophers like Philo and

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historians like Josephus, they 
focused on a mob attempting to 

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violently interrogate and abuse 
Lot's visitors. 

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It was about cruelty, not a 
blanket condemnation of a sexual

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orientation. 
Yeah, and what's fascinating 

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00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,400
here is how that historical 
interpretation morphs. 

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The transformation from a story 
about violent in hospitality to 

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the modern concept of sodomy is 
basically a master class in 

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political maneuvering. 
Wait, really? 

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How so? 
Well, in the 6th century, the 

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Byzantine Emperor Justinian the 
Great was facing a series of 

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devastating earthquakes and 
plagues, and he needed a 

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theological scapegoat. 
Oh wow. 

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Yeah. 
So Justinian became the first to

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legally declare that the sin of 
Sodom was specifically same sex 

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activities. 
He instituted legal novels 

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mandating this interpretation, 
explicitly linking those acts to

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the natural disasters destroying
his empire. 

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He weaponized the biblical 
narrative just. 

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To keep his state together, and 
his interpretation might have 

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just stayed a Byzantine footnote
if it weren't for a monk a few 

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100 years later. 
Oh, Benedictus Levita. 

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Yes, around 850 CE, this 
Frankish monk, using the 

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pseudonym Benedictus Levita 
Benedict the Levite, fabricated 

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an entire series of fake legal 
documents, the Charlemagne and 

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Capitularies. 
Right. 

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Completely forged. 
He lifted Justinian's 

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interpretation and used it to 
demand burning at the stake for 

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carnal sins, but his actual goal
was to justify the church's 

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supremacy over secular 
institutions. 

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It's crazy to realize how much 
of what we assume is an ancient 

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biblical stance is actually just
a medieval political strategy. 

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Exactly, and at the same time, 
the Hebrew Bible contains 

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narratives that complicate the 
picture even further. 

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You have these incredible 
depictions of same sex devotion 

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like. 
David and Jonathan. 

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Yes, in the books of Samuel, 
their relationship is described 

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with this intense emotional 
language. 

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The text notes their love 
surpass the love of women, and 

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there's a scene where Jonathan 
literally strips off his armor 

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to give it to David. 
Traditional scholars call it a 

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Platonic bond or a symbolic 
transfer of power. 

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But, modern scholars point out, 
the textual ambiguity certainly 

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allows for readings of Romantic 
devotion. 

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And we see a similar devotion 
with women in the book of Ruth. 

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Ruth makes that famous pledge to
Naomi, whither thou goest, I 

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will go. 
And ironically, that specific 

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expression of loyalty is so 
powerful it's routinely used 

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today in modern heterosexual 
Jewish wedding ceremonies. 

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Which is brilliant, right? 
The ancient textual landscape is

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clearly not a monolith. 
You've got explicit 

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prohibitions, absolute silences,
and these narratives of fierce 

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devotion. 
Right. 

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So how does a modern religious 
movement handle these ancient 

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rigid laws? 
When faced with modern 

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scientific reality, they don't 
throw away the law. 

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No, they can't. 
Traditional legal systems 

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survive by diving deeper into 
their own frameworks. 

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Which brings us to the 2006 
Rabbinical Assembly response. 

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This was a pivotal legal ruling 
in the Conservative movement and

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it only passed by a tight 13 to 
12 vote. 

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Razor thin margin and to 
understand this ruling, you have

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to remember that Jewish law, or 
halaka, is a comprehensive, 

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evolving legal system. 
The authors of this ruling, 

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Rabbis Dorf, Nevins and Reisner,
they started by confronting 

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modern science. 
Right. 

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They looked at the psychological
consensus that sexual 

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orientation is fundamentally 
unchangeable. 

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It's not an illness. 
And they paid very specific 

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attention to the data on 
conversion therapies. 

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The scientific consensus is that
trying to force a change in 

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sexual orientation is profoundly
harmful. 

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It leads to elevated suicide 
rates. 

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It's essentially torture. 
Exactly. 

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And from a halachic standpoint, 
a legal requirement must be 

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feasible for the community to 
bear. 

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Expecting individuals to commit 
to a lifetime of total isolation

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is an invitation to profound 
suffering, so it ceases to be a 

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viable legal expectation. 
So what does this all mean? 

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It's almost like discovering A 
constitutional loophole because 

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they couldn't erase the core 
text of Leviticus. 

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But Jewish law has this concept 
of building a fence around the 

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Torah, right? 
Yes, secondary rules to stop you

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from accidentally breaking the 
main rule. 

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So prohibitions against holding 
hands, hugging, living together.

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Right. 
And the brilliance of the 2006 

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response is how they addressed 
those fences. 

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They use a different, equally 
powerful legal principle from 

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the Talmud called Kavod Habriod,
which means human dignity. 

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The Talmud actually states that 
human dignity is so great it 

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supersedes a negative 
commandment of the Torah. 

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It's an incredible application 
of jurisprudence. 

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The authors argued that being 
permanently excluded from 

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finding a life partner is an 
intolerable humiliation. 

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00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,600
Now, Cavada Hebery, it can't 
overturn a core, explicit 

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biblical prohibition. 
So the Leviticus ban remained. 

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Right. 
But they successfully argued 

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that human dignity does allow 
them to completely dismantle all

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the rabbinic fences. 
So by knocking down the 

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00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,560
secondary prohibitions, they 
effectively normalized gay and 

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00:09:03,560 --> 00:09:06,320
lesbian Jews in the community, 
even allowing for their 

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00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:08,480
ordination as rabbis. 
But wait. 

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00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,440
I read that some scholars, like 
Rabbi Joel Roth, pushed back 

188
00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:14,880
hard on this. 
He argued that dignity only 

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00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,520
applies to protecting other 
people's feelings, not your own.

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00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:19,280
He did. 
His stance was basically that 

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00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,360
using your own dignity as an 
excuse places human dignity 

192
00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,760
above God's dignity. 
Right, so how did they answer 

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00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,280
that push back? 
Well, the author's rejected 

194
00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,560
Roth's view by citing historical
Talmudic precedence where 

195
00:09:30,560 --> 00:09:34,360
dignity absolutely justified 
altering behavior for oneself. 

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00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,880
Like there's an ancient law 
permitting a person to carry 

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00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,440
smooth stones on the fabbath for
personal hygiene. 

198
00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:43,480
Oh wow. 
Yeah, violating the restriction.

199
00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,800
Caring objects. 
They also highlighted a modern 

200
00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,400
ruling allowing a hearing 
impaired person to carry a 

201
00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,360
hearing aid on the Sabbath. 
Dignity, they argued, is 

202
00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,160
fundamentally a social 
phenomenon. 

203
00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,240
A person barred from 
companionship is isolated. 

204
00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:59,160
The legal system had to address 
it. 

205
00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:00,520
OK. 
Here's where it gets really 

206
00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,840
interesting to me, because these
theological debates don't just 

207
00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,000
happen in high councils, they 
crash directly into the living 

208
00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:08,560
rooms of conservative 
communities. 

209
00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,360
And based on the Eschel article,
the unexpected frontline 

210
00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:14,440
warriors in this shift aren't 
the youth. 

211
00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:16,200
No, it's their parents. 
Right. 

212
00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,680
The Orthodox parents, when a 
child comes out, the parents are

213
00:10:19,680 --> 00:10:21,480
forced to like, come out as 
well. 

214
00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,360
And we usually expect the 
younger generation to rebel and 

215
00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,680
leave for a liberal city. 
But these parents are in their 

216
00:10:26,680 --> 00:10:30,000
40s or 50s. 
They have jobs, homes, deep 

217
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,160
community ties. 
They can't just walk away. 

218
00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,440
Exactly, and the social 
mechanics make the stakes so 

219
00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,680
incredibly high. 
In many orthodox circles, 

220
00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:42,600
marriages are arranged through 
strict matchmaking networks 

221
00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,640
shiduchim. 
So if a family reveals they have

222
00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,080
a gay or transgender child, it 
can instantly threaten the 

223
00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,680
marriage ability of their other 
heterosexual children. 

224
00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,200
The whole family's reputation is
on the line. 

225
00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,200
And when they go to their rabbis
for guidance, the sources show 

226
00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,640
these rabbis were often 
completely unequipped. 

227
00:10:59,960 --> 00:11:02,720
They're the first responders. 
But they'll tell parents to keep

228
00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,600
the child away from the 
synagogue to avoid a, quote, 

229
00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,160
hostile environment. 
Or worse, parents will be 

230
00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:13,040
sitting in the pews listening to
a rabbi blame Hurricane Katrina 

231
00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,600
on gay people. 
It's devastating, but if we 

232
00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:17,960
connect us to the bigger 
picture, This is why the parents

233
00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,200
matter so much, because they 
stay, they become the ultimate 

234
00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:22,840
catalyst for systemic change. 
They. 

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Refuse to be closeted. 
Exactly. 

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By refusing to hide, they force 
their peers and their rabbis to 

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confront the issue head on. 
Organizations like Eshel and 

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Tamika provide a crucial peer 
support so they don't have to do

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it alone. 
They are effectively putting the

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Cavad Harbriet Human dignity 
theory into actual practice in 

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the pews. 
They're educating the religious 

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establishment from the bottom 
up. 

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Precisely. 
So from the deeply personal 

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struggle of families, let's zoom
out to the macro level, because 

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the timeline of LGBTQ rights in 
the State of Israel shows a 

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modern nation navigating this 
exact same tension. 

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And if you're listening to this 
and thinking Israel's just one 

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big pride parade in Tel Aviv, 
think again. 

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Right, it's far more fractured 
than that. 

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Israel operates under a unique 
dual system. 

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You have a secular parliament 
and Supreme Court passing 

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progressive civil laws, but 
state sanctioned religious 

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authorities, the Rabbinate, 
control personal status issues 

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like marriage. 
It's a crazy duality, but the 

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rapid legal evolution on the 
secular side is stunning. 

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In 1963, sodomy laws were 
practically nullified for 

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private adults and fully 
abolished in 1988. 

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Then, in 1993, the Israeli army 
allowed openly LGBTQ soldiers to

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serve in any capacity. 
Which was decades ahead of many 

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Western nations. 
Completely. 

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And the high profile visibility 
is amazing. 

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You have Nitzen Horowitz, the 
first openly gay party leader 

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and health minister who actually
banned conversion therapy in 

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2022. 
Amir Ohana, the first openly gay

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parliament member from the 
conservative Likud Party. 

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And culturally, you have Dana 
International, a trans woman who

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won the Eurovision contest in 
1998 representing Israel, and 

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Yiska Smith, a trans Orthodox 
woman advocating within the 

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Shabad movement, which is deeply
traditional. 

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But, and this is crucial, the 
sources document a really dark 

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side to this progress. 
In 2009 there were tragic 

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murders at the Tel Aviva Gouda 
branch and in 2015 a 16 year old

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girl was murdered at the 
Jerusalem Pride parade by a 

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religious extremist. 
How does a country balance a 

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thriving LGBTQ culture with such
intense religious extremism? 

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Well, this raises an important 
question about a state that is 

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both democratic and Jewish. 
The tragedy of these hate crimes

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highlights that the theological 
tension we discussed earlier 

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isn't just theoretical, right? 
It has literal life or death 

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consequences. 
Yeah, the activism of groups 

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like the Aguda fighting for 
rights in the secular courts 

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represents this ongoing daily 
struggle to carve out safety 

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within a fractured system. 
It's just an incredible 

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landscape. 
I mean, the journey of this deep

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dive has taken us from the 
ancient interpretations of 

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Genesis being shaped by medieval
politics to modern rabbis using 

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00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,160
human dignity as a legal 
loophole. 

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And to the quiet courage of 
Orthodox parents in their living

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00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,720
rooms, all the way to the 
vibrant, complex Society of 

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modern Israel. 
Exactly. 

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And for you listening, this 
isn't just about a single social

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issue. 
It's really a master class in 

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how ancient traditions and laws 
bend, adapt, and negotiate with 

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the reality of modern human 
existence in science. 

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It absolutely is, and you know I
want to leave you with one final

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thing to ponder that wasn't 
directly stated in the text. 

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00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,120
Oh, what's that? 
Well, we spent a lot of time 

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talking about how Jewish law had
to adapt to accommodate human 

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dignity, right? 
But what if the reverse is true?

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What if the only reason ancient 
traditions survive for thousands

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of years is because they contain
internal mechanisms, like Cavad 

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Habriot, that allow them to 
evolve? 

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People often frame adaptation as
a betrayal of the past. 

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But perhaps adaptation is the 
ultimate proof of a tradition's 

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resilience. 
It's the very thing that ensures

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it survives into the next 
century. 

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Wow, yeah, that maybe without 
that flexibility, it would just 

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snap under the pressure of 
modern life. 

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That's profound way to look at 
it. 

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We will leave you to explore 
that idea on your own. 

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Thanks for joining us on this 
deep dive.