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We've gotten responses from 
people all over the world who 

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have talked about how encouraged
they are to see an actual gay 

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older couple demonstrating how 
as role of role models of how 

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they can actively grow older and
don't have to be afraid of being

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old. 
Or that they can be gay and 

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still have a long term 
relationship, have a family in 

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the traditional sense. 
I'm thrilled to have with us 

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today the 2 Gay Grandpas of 
YouTube fame, Grandpa Bobby and 

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Grandpa Scott. 
They're known around the world 

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for their heart warming travel 
videos and their inspiring 

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journey as a married couple. 
Their YouTube channel is 2 Gay 

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Grandpas Travel. 
Today we'll be diving into their

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personal experiences as gay men,
their marriage, their journey. 

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Welcome Grandpa Bobby and 
Grandpa Scott Well. 

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Thank you, Elton. 
Thank you for inviting. 

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Us my my pleasure. 
I originally heard you on a 

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Rotary podcast talking about 
your Travel Channel, and I kept 

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wanting to ask you all these 
other questions about your life 

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and how you met and how you had 
children and how much resistance

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you ran into in society and 
worked with the extended family 

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and everything. 
So let me turn the mic over to 

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you, Grandpa Scott, and tell us 
a bit of your story. 

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Oh, thank you. 
Well, I am the oldest of the 

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two. 
I'll be turning 75 in December. 

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And as our oldest granddaughter 
says, Gee, Grandpa, you were 

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born in the first half of the 
last century. 

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Thank you very much, honey. 
So I I was born in a small 

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mining town in Utah. 
My dad was a coal miner and 

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organizer for the 9 mine 
workers. 

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And one of the questions I'm 
asked a lot. 

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Well, are you LDS? 
No, I'm actually a baptized 

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Methodist and at one time I 
wanted to go into the ministry 

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and that that of course did 
change. 

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I'm one of nine children and, 
you know, I had a really nice 

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childhood. 
It's just I was born in an area 

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that, you know, I wanted, I 
wanted to leave. 

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I, I wanted to go see the world 
and I, I couldn't wait to have 

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that experience of going out 
and, and seeing what all life 

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had to offer. 
And as far as my coming out 

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experience, it was very late in 
life. 

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I was married to a really 
wonderful woman for several 

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years. 
We had two, two daughters and it

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wasn't until after our marriage 
ended, which did not end because

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I came out. 
I didn't come out until several 

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years after the divorce. 
We had just married very young 

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and we found our lives kind of 
separating our interests and and

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our friends, but we stayed 
together up until her her recent

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death. 
In fact, in the family, Bobby 

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and I and Laura, they called us 
a sister wives. 

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So my coming out story is it was
a little later in life, which is

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different from from Bobby's. 
I did, I learned and experienced

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that I was a gay man in my late 
30s. 

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And so I didn't have any of 
those kind of issues growing up 

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as a child that many young 
people do. 

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And I guess I was quite 
fortunate for that. 

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And I, I had a family on the 
whole that was really supportive

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when I finally did it. 
My mom and dad, they spent a lot

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of time in the South. 
My mother was born in the South.

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So they had a whole lot of the 
kind of that evangelical 

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Southern Bible Belt kind of 
background. 

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But through getting to know 
Bobby and falling in love with 

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him just like I did, it pretty 
much was a smooth ride for my 

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mom and dad, a little roughly 
for several of my brothers. 

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But they did come around. 
So I didn't have any of that 

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kind of angst within my family 
that many, many of people who 

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had that coming out experience 
go through. 

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And my situation was a little 
different. 

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I'm eight years, seven years 
younger than Scott. 

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I grew up in upstate New York in
a very large Italian family. 

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So I was always in the cluster 
of this family. 

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And we were very Roman Catholic.
I used to go to Mass twice on 

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Sundays. 
I sang in both church choirs. 

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I even knew the the the Mass in 
Latin. 

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So for me, even at a very, very 
young age, by age 5 or 6, I was 

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aware that there was something 
different. 

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I didn't have the ability to put
a name to it. 

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I knew I was attracted to other 
boys and young men growing up, 

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but because of my religion and 
because my family was very 

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traditional Italian, you just 
didn't bring it up. 

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You didn't admit it to yourself.
I think the only role model that

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I could visibly see growing up 
was Liberace, and I knew I 

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wasn't Liberace, so I suppressed
that. 

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So I was fortunate, though, that
I came to my awareness of my 

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gayness when I was in college. 
I went away to college, met a 

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lot of friends, and two close 
friends of mine came out and I 

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realized this was OK, that these
were normal people. 

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And so I made the determination 
to come out in College in my 

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final, final year. 
And I remember coming home for 

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Christmas that final year 
saying, OK, you're going to come

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out to your family. 
And of course I was home for 

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over 3 weeks and waiting for 
that right time to come out and 

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have that conversation. 
Well, finally, by the last night

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before my plane had to leave, I 
said, OK, I've got to have this 

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conversation because it's never 
going to work its way around the

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dinner table. 
My father had passed away when I

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was a young person, so it was 
only my mother that I came out 

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to, and we had that 
conversation. 

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And like many parents, my mother
said, well, I kind of always had

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a suspicion about this. 
But then she expressed her 

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concern that, you know, I'd be 
happy in my life. 

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And the one thing that she had 
to start understanding was I 

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explained to her that there is a
difference between being 

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homosexual and being gay. 
My mother couldn't quite 

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understand how I could be proud 
to be gay. 

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So when you could be proud to be
Italian, a proud but proud to be

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gay, she didn't quite understand
that. 

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But she was accepting as long as
I was happy, etcetera. 

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I'm on my way back to college. 
I stopped in to see my two older

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sisters, came out to them and 
they said, duh, Well, of course 

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you are. 
We've known for years. 

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And I was like, like many 
people, why didn't you tell me? 

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So it was, you know, it was very
accepting. 

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My mom then to help herself 
along joint PFLAG and she became

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a very active member of PFLAG. 
And then a few years later, my 

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mom joined the Boulder County 
AIDS Project and she donated her

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time, dedicated her life to that
organization for 26 years, to 

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the point now where I still have
people up to me telling me how 

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my mom was like a mother to them
when they had no family to turn 

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to. 
When she was 70 years old, my 

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mother wrote the Pope and told 
him that she had to leave the 

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church because the church was 
not accepting of her gay son. 

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And she became a Methodist. 
Go mom. 

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Yeah. 
Which is interesting because it 

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may be a little controversial 
with people, but I still regard 

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myself as a Catholic. 
My feeling is I was born, I was 

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baptized, I was confirmed a 
Catholic. 

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I will be a Catholic until the 
day I die, but I'm not a 

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practicing Catholic. 
Of course, I don't agree with 

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everything my faith teaches me, 
but I'll still tell you when, 

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say, we're traveling and around 
the world and we're in Europe 

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and we're in a cathedral. 
I still get those wonderful 

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feelings of peace and intimacy 
when I'm in a beautiful stained 

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glass cathedral. 
But I just can't accept being an

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active part of that religion 
anymore. 

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The Church, The church has 
wandered astray. 

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Yes, yeah, it was. 
I always like to say that I 

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didn't leave the church, the 
church left me. 

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Well, even the Methodist Church,
you know, it's sad to see how it

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has split over the issue and and
you, you go, guys, if you say 

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you have this Jesus centered 
life, It's about the love that 

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he spoke about. 
And it just I may be digressing 

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you a little bit, but it's just 
so sad to see the issue of faith

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become so riddled with, well, I 
don't like you because of this. 

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And you cherry pick out of the 
the Bible what you want that 

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kind of fits your own values. 
Particularly Old Testament, 

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Yeah. 
And so that's you're still 

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feeling very much like, you 
know, Roman Catholic. 

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I have kind of gone the other 
road L tonight of pretty much 

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just, you know, there's there 
isn't anything I feel in it for 

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me in terms of kind of 
institutionalized religion. 

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It's not that I don't have a 
spiritual side, but it just, 

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it's not within the confines of,
let's say a denomination, if you

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would. 
I guess both of us feel that 

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regarding the mystery of what's 
beyond life, well, no one is 

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ever going to fully know it 
completely. 

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We'll get there eventually, and 
that we both feel that as long 

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as we lead a good life, live by 
the Golden Rule, doing unto 

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others as we would have them do 
unto us, that that is a form of 

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faith. 
That is faith in mankind, faith,

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respect for our planet, caring 
for our friends and family, and 

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that's what guides us through. 
It's we've been together, now 

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we're going into our 46 year 
together. 4640. 

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Six. 
Yes. 

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We met in San Francisco in well 
after college. 

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I moved to San Francisco. 
Scott had moved the year before.

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And we met in 1979. 
And as Scott had mentioned, he 

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had two children with Laura and 
the children were five and six 

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when they came into my life. 
So they don't remember a time 

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that I wasn't a part of their 
life to the point where they 

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call us both. 
Dad, Scott is dead. 

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One, I'm dead too. 
And our grandchildren, of 

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course, have only ever known us 
both as grandkids. 

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And I think sometimes they're 
pressed to know which one's 

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biologically connected, which 
one's not. 

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I love that. 
OK, I love that. 

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Because there and a lot of times
people have trouble. 

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Well, I mean, isn't there really
a difference? 

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No, no. 
Both the girls, our daughters 

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and our grandkids, there's 
there's no difference. 

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Yeah, especially when they 
zealous for ask us for money. 

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There's there's absolutely no 
difference. 

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I don't care. 
When we were let, let me 

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interrupt before I forget a 
couple things. 

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You know, I see many Catholic 
adults go to Catholic churches 

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and are very conflicted. 
I think it's real challenge. 

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Yeah. 
I wanted to comment on two other

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things. 
One was both of you had and a 

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spiritual sense at a young age. 
Scott, you said you thought 

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maybe even of going into the 
ministry. 

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That's a story I hear over and 
over again. 

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And I think that's why a young 
queer people often struggle even

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more because they're true 
believers. 

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They really can sense the 
spirit. 

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They're they're gung ho for for 
Jesus. 

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They're in the choir and then at
some point in their life this 

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tremendous slap down happens and
it just sends them into a 

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tailspin. 
The other thing that I smiled, I

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didn't interrupt. 
I almost did that the women in 

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her life, Bobby knew what was 
going on before you did and 

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never said anything. 
I've certainly experienced that.

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Not on the same issue, but other
issues where my mother would 

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sell. 
I I realized that years ago and 

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I look at her and I said that 
would have been nice if you 

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could have just maybe given me a
clue. 

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Well, also it would have been 
nice to know that they 

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understood and accepted because,
you know, growing up I felt that

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there was no one like me. 
Now years later, I find out how 

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many friends in high school 
actually were gay. 

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For me, I was the fortunate 
type. 

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I was not an isolated recluse or
and didn't withdraw and I was 

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not one of the very challenged 
mentally young adult. 

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What I did is the exact opposite
is I called what I hid in plain 

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sight. 
I was the joiner. 

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I joined every school club, 
every activity, every play, 

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musical. 
As I said, I was in two church 

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choirs. 
I was going, going, going, and 

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for me what that did is I didn't
have to confront that 

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traditional boy dating girl 
activity. 

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I was too busy for that. 
And I kept involved with theater

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and drama folk, which were, as I
found out years later, many 

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other gay students. 
We contrast that with now the 

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experience we've had with our 
grandchildren, which has been so

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entirely different. 
We have 6 grandchildren. 

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They now range in age from age 
10 to 30. 

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Three of them are LGBTQ, of 
which one is transgender. 

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And sharing those experiences 
with them growing up. 

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Now, mind you, they had the 
benefit and I'll say frankly of 

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growing up in Southern 
California, which is a more 

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accepting environment. 
And, and we were talking about 

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the generational change, how I 
came out much younger than 

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Scott. 
Our grandkids came out so much 

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younger. 
Our eldest came out in high 

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school. 
Our grandson started 

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transitioning in junior high to 
the point where his teachers 

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were aware of his new name 
before he even had the courage 

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to tell his own father and they 
would allow him to use the 

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teacher restroom. 
The nurses are then she he could

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change about the time hadn't 
totally transitioned. 

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That's why I said she, but he 
could he could go in and use the

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nurses restroom to change for 
gym. 

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The teachers were supportive and
and this was in Southern 

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California and in a very 
Republican area. 

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So that was beautiful to see 
that there was this level of 

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support from the teachers, from 
the principal. 

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And we know that a lot of trans 
kids and trans adults, they 

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don't have that support where 
they are. 

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You know, if they're, if they're
in a deep red state in a rural 

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area, they don't have that. 
So I think that's why I love the

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idea of your podcast. 
I love the idea of the podcast 

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from trans people who, who give 
access to kids and adults who, 

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who don't have that support 
system. 

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It's so important because when 
you don't have it, that's when 

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you get the issue, the suicide 
ideation, suicidal ideations, 

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That's when you do get. 
That sense of isolation. 

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Oh yeah, it's it can be horrible
for you. 

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Our and our youngest 
granddaughter. 

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I swear she came out of the womb
as a lesbian. 

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She was a flower girl or a bring
bear at our wedding. 

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She was six years old at the 
time. 

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She was in a long dress. 
We were getting ready to go down

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the aisle. 
She walked in, she came up to me

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and said, grandpa, this is the 
last time I'm wearing a dress. 

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And that was and that was, that 
was it. 

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She's never worn a dress since. 
She never even came out. 

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She just always was her son. 
She. 

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Was there? 
And, and she's the one most, 

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she's in college now and she's 
the one most wonderful old soul.

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So and it's just so joyful that 
we are fortunate. 

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We have a very accepting family,
very close family. 

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As Scott had mentioned, we hope 
to raise our kids with his 

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former wife, Laura. 
We were so close, Laura, Gabe, 

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Scott away at our wedding. 
So our kids have had the benefit

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and our grandkids have had the 
benefit of growing up in a very 

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accepting family community that 
I know a lot of kids don't have 

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that ability. 
We're keenly aware that that 

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doesn't all. 
That isn't always the case for a

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lot of wonderful. 
People out there, but we are 

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seeing, I mean, we see the 
trends from when Scott, you 

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know, grew up. 
He had the role models of his 

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older brothers getting married 
and they all got married and 

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Scott kind of followed suit. 
My generation changed to we were

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the ones that came out in 
college. 

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And now we see it translating 
all the way down to our 

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grandkids are expressing 
themselves in elementary school,

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in junior high, and that's so 
much more helpful. 

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Yeah, there were a lot of there 
was a lot of roles as a child of

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the late 40s and 50s, you know, 
Missus Cleaver, the woman wear 

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the necklace and stayed at the 
kitchen. 

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Dad went out and came back in at
5 O clock or whatever. 

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And so many of us in this 
country, you know, that was what

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you saw. 
That's what you bought into. 

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And what I think is very dynamic
now, both in, in, in media and, 

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and, and the social platforms, 
those roles have frequently been

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challenged. 
They're not as set anymore. 

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We don't hear this anymore. 
Or which one is the woman in our

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relationship. 
And, and you know, a lot of the 

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times in the early days that we 
were together, we get asked that

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a lot, you know, and we're not 
hearing that anymore. 

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And I, I hope that the young 
people are not having to 

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experience that anymore because 
I think it frees them up to be 

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who they are, be their authentic
selves and just enjoy life as 

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the people who they are. 
And it's also now we've had the 

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opposite extreme. 
Through our our Travel Channel 

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and through our podcast Travel 
Your Heart, we've gotten 

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responses from people all over 
the world who have talked about 

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how encouraged they are to see 
an actual gay older couple 

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demonstrating how as role of 
role models of how they can 

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00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,480
actively grow older and don't 
have to be afraid of being old. 

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Or that they can be gay and 
still have a long term 

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relationship, have a family in 
the traditional sense. 

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That was from the first half of 
my interview with Grandpa Scott 

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00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:31,200
and Grandpa Bobby of the hit 
YouTube Channel 2 Gay Grandpas 

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Travel. 
They also have a podcast called 

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Travel Your Heart. 
Next episode, the second-half of

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00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:43,040
this interview when we discuss 
parenting, teen suicide and 

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00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,600
more. 
This is Elton Sherwin. 

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Stay safe, be brave, and God 
bless.