Welcome to Women Disrupting Tech.
My name is dear Kanupkas, and on this podcast, I give the women
who work in tech the platform they need to inspire and empower
each other. Join me on a journey into the
world of entrepreneurship, funding biases, and role models
to discover the strategies for success in the tech industry.
In other words, how women can disrupt tech.
Are you ready to listen? Hey, welcome back to Women
Disrupting Tech and thank you for tuning into episode 120.
In high school, Annie Hooks I was told that computer science
wasn't necessary. At 20, she never imagined having
a future in tech. Yet her curiosity carried her
from growth hacker to co-owner of Prevo, turning doubt into
fuel for building better companies.
In this episode of Women Disrupting Tech, Henny is our
guide as we explore how curiosity shapes leadership.
It's a story about courage, resilience, and building teams
that last. By listening, you'll discover
what it takes to build better, more resilient companies in
tech, how she shifted from being an employee to being a co-owner,
and why a curious mind is a joy forever.
Her story is proof that companies thrive when leaders
take curious invest in people, and they are to follow their own
spark. So when you're ready to discover
how curious minds build better companies in tech, please
welcome to Women Disrupting Tech Henny hooksta henny hooksta.
Good afternoon, welcome to women disrupting tech.
Question I always start with is how you got into your current
position or current role as a director and co-owner of Prevo?
Yeah, I think it's not the most logical story.
Looking at my study backgrounds, I studied international business
and most people when they finish the masters, they just go to
corporates or the BIG4 consultancy.
It's more like a logical path. But when I graduated, I was
travelling for a while and I was thinking like, what do I really
want to do? And I really felt strongly that
I wanted to work somewhere on a company that I could still form
a little bit, but where I also make some impacts.
And I worked before during my internship at a software
company. So when I finished travelling, I
was just looking for vacancies and I saw there was a company
that was launching a new product called Pluvo.
And I looked at the website and I tried it out.
I was like, this might be interesting.
And I knew back then that growth hacking was really cool thing,
you know, so I really want to be a growth hacker.
I really liked the marketing part of my studies.
I was like, I'm going to be a growth hacker.
It sounds really cool. And so I applied and I started
working here. Most of our team was then
working on the other company and me, the founder and two
developers were actually responsible for building Pluvo.
And I was just responsible like, hey, make the company grow.
And they hired me from a marketing perspective.
But you know when you do marketing, well, you probably
get some leads as well. You need to do some sales.
And then then I rolled into sales and yeah, actually from
then I started getting my own team and at one point they asked
me if I want to become one of the Co owners of the company.
Cool. Yeah, so proof.
Proof. How is a tech company?
What what made it interesting for you to work in tech?
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I must say, if I look
back in my life, I've always been very interested in computer
stuff, but when I went to high school, it was a little bit old
fashioned. I I want to do like informatics
as a as a subject. And they said like, hey, no,
it's not necessary. So I was just going the
economics path, but fortunately I ended up at the University of
Twente, which is like a Technical University.
So I did an alpha studies at a Technical University.
So that meant that a lot of people that I met there, they
were quite technical. And when I was looking for my
bachelor teachers graduation internship, I walked around in
the business days we have like these business days, you can
meet some companies and they're all quite technical.
And then I saw these guys standing there with a Fiat
glasses and I was like, oh, let's try that out.
Well, I didn't have my balance. I kept falling over, started
talking with him and he was like, hey, we want to expand to
Germany. Are you interested in doing an
internship on that? So I was interested because I
was studying international business, always loved the
German language. So I was like, ah, let's do
that. And then I came there to that
company. They had two offices, one in the
Netherlands, the arms forward and one and ends today.
Amish for was more about the salespeople market people, but
two days a week. I wasn't yesterday between the
developers and then I saw what they were doing and that they
were constantly improving the product and there were like new
releases and new IDs and they were the whole part of hey, we
have an ID, we want to transform the products and then being able
to do it as quickly as in one day.
That kind of fascinated me. I was like, no, this is so
different than, I don't know, buying a vacuum cleaner.
It's a product you can improve every day.
And there I really got along pretty well with the developers
as well. And that's the point that I
really fell in love with text. It was like, oh, I really like
this. But if you've asked me when I
was 20 if I would end up in tech, I would probably have said
no. But then again, what I'm hearing
you say is that it's a lot like growth hacking the way they
developed. Yeah, kind of.
Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that they're like very growth
hiking minded with the whole thing as we have an idea and
let's test it quickly, let's build it.
Yeah, sorry, the fastness. Of that, that that's that's
fascinating, isn't it? Yeah, You can always improve.
OK. So it's it's it's in part also
the pace at which things were happening.
Yeah. I really liked that and also the
fact that, so the alignment between for example, a customer
and the software, I mean, I believe that that they they
should be really close to each other and that's, that's also
possible. So as we as, as commercial team
can spot the trends and the things that our customers want.
And it's quite easy to get to the product team and discuss
that if you have a physical product.
Because my other company is in wine, The wine is here now, 1500
bottles. If someone says I would like to
have this change, that's not possible.
So that the fast pace of of, of innovating, but also improving
for your customers, that's, that's yeah.
For me, that fascinates me every day.
OK. So I want to switch gears a bit
in in terms of moving back to Provo, but also maybe the the
guys you worked with in Ends today during your internship
where there was this an old guys team that you ended up working
in as a girl. Yeah, So it ends today.
There were some female females, but there were not on the tech
sides. So we had, we had a few, mostly
men, I would say like 90% men and at believable, I was the
only women for a long time. OK, so how, how did you make
that work for yourself? Because yeah, you did.
You have to sort of get the respect of those guys.
And so I have one advantage when I came here and that was that I
did it before and I studied ends today, which is like a film.
Male dominated field also lived together with four guys in one
house a long time. I was the only girl.
So I thought I would be prepared that I wasn't prepared on their
own preparedness. So I came here and I think they
were a little bit afraid of me, I would say.
And later on, yeah, well, and later on they taught me because
now I, we got along pretty well as well as.
Yeah, it was not only because you were a women, but also you
were a commercial person. So that's that's a different
type. They talk more, you know,
they're more enthusiastic and and they really didn't know what
to do with it. And I must unless you say they
always did a lunch walk. But when I started, they, they
quit doing the lunch walk. So I was always working, walking
with one person. At one point he said to me like,
yeah, we normally walk with much more people, but not since
you're here. So that was kind of a shocker
for me. So they they they really had a
problem adopt adapting. To.
Yeah, but what? Do you know if it was more
personality wise? Because in the sales people are
you're stereotype developer, let's say.
Yeah, I think it's a combination probably.
I mean, I, I think I just brought a whole new personality
to the company. If you look at the current team
we have, it's, it's much, much more diverse in personalities
and also male, female. But I think it was a combination
of that. And also like maybe we females,
we, we react different to things.
We, we bring a different energy and, and, and, and it just took
them time for them to, to adapt to that.
And, but I knew that before from the other software company
because that was the same. But The thing is, if you are
interested in their product and not only having the classical
field, like, oh, you sell something people, we don't have
something. I do as a salesperson is only
selling the product that we offer.
And I share a vision And it's not like, Hey, I'm selling all
kinds of stuff and then go to development here, you develop
this. It's the other way around.
They they gained trust over time and I think now they're quite
happy that I, that I joined. OK, how long did it did it take
I. Would say 2-3 months maybe.
Oh, so it happened relatively quick.
Now I I I for for a moment I thought OK, this took a year or
so. It was OK.
They are dead quickly. OK, so the lunch walk resumed
after a couple of months. Yeah.
But it's interesting because this year we also hired a
different personality for sales, like I would say like a really
salesperson sales. And I also saw that the company
had to adapt to this. And now like it's always about
adaption, like, OK, something's changing, what's happening and
then we get a new equilibrium together.
So I think that's what happened as well when I joined the
company. OK, so it was more like the
comp, Yeah, everyone getting to grips with or getting to know
each other and getting used to each other.
Yeah, I think so. And it's probably not only
because I'm female. OK, did you do anything special
to to make it work or to speed up the problem?
Yeah, showing interest in because I know, like I, I joined
us like the first non tech, I would say, but fortunately I'm,
I'm very interested in decks and I just really want to know like,
Hey, where are you working on and how does it work?
And, and and they also feel felt respected in their work.
So I think it goes often wrong if we don't talk with each other
and if we don't take interest in each other, right then I think
it's as commercial team, it's also very important to
understand what product is doing and vice versa.
So I think that really helped me finding my place in the company.
OK, cool. How is that you, you said you
you're, you have a much more diverse team right now from when
you started. How has that led to a change and
what is the change like? Yeah, For me, it feels like the
company is changing all the time when we add different people.
You see now like we built much more of a commercial team.
There's much more. So first one of the founders and
I, we were doing like everything commercial strategize and you
know, the people kind of followed I would say.
And now we have like more people that also have a lot of ideas
about the growth and they are like really committed and very
enthusiastic about the company. And suddenly you get completely
different visions and stuff, things you never thought about.
So that really helps us as well in developing the the company,
hiring different personalities so you get different
perspectives on stuff. You're a director now.
You're quite young for a director.
How do people respond to that, especially the new people and
also client new clients? Yeah, that's an interesting
question. I mean, I joined Pluto when I
was 24 and because you're like start up, start up quite fast.
I had to sit next to directors of 50 plus, you know, and it
took me a while to get used to death.
I really had like the imposter syndrome.
I was like, oh, I'm young, I'm a woman and what do I know?
And then I, I learned a little bit to fake it till you make
because I was like the way you walk in a meeting.
Like I had like some some people saying stuff when I was younger
about my age and stuff like that.
And that doesn't happen anymore. But because I know a lot about
our field, about learning, about development, about our platform.
So for now, it's not a thing anymore.
But when I was younger and a little bit more insecure, they
really picked on me on that. Like, aren't you too young for
this? No, I never heard this again.
I only have people saying, oh, you do respect that, that you're
already doing it this at this age.
So do you have to respond? Well, yeah, that's.
So do you have to? Yeah.
Do you have to feeling that you have to prove yourself a bit
more as a woman though? Always.
But I, I yesterday I had a discussion.
I also am in a young management. It's a club with a lot of people
below the age of 40 that all are entrepreneurs or high managers.
And I had a discussion with with a friend of mine from there and,
and she has to say like, you always have to show and prove
that you know what you're talking about.
And for me, it does feel a little bit more that I have to
really show that and be a little bit more dominant to get respect
and then we can continue the conversation.
But that's something I hear from more women that are playing
under higher level. You have to show that you
actually know what you're talking about.
It's not that you automatically get respected because you're
there in your function. Do do you think that's because
you're a woman or because of your age?
Might be a combination, but we all know about the biases,
right? If you look at politicians, how
they describe men versus how they describe women, I'm quite
sure there are a lot of biases about female directors as well.
So how do you deal with that? Because I can imagine that you
don't want to be like dominant if you don't have to.
Like sometimes you have to be. It depends on which personality
type you're dealing with, right? Like sometimes you have like
really red people and I don't know, sometimes also have to use
my red part. But I once was at the podcast of
Wheel of SAS and then Johan, you might know him as well.
He told me like we don't need more masculine females of
females that try to be masculine.
We just need to the the feminine energy in it.
And I also tried to take that into account that I have to work
for my own power and not try to be something that I am not.
Yeah. Which doesn't mean I'm never
dominant because I also have the part in me, but it should be
fake. It should be like how I am in
the situation should be me and not someone else trying to be
like a dominant man. No, I should try to use my
femininity as well and. So how do you, how do you do
that? How do you mix that?
How do you find the right mix? That's a good question because I
don't know if people can can see what we're doing, but I, I, I
smile a lot and that that helps a lot.
I think. I mean, that's something I, I
normally do as well, but I know that I, I have some kind of
energy and, and, and people like that most of the time and it
makes them happy and enthusiastic.
And I think that's one of my core qualities as well.
However, when I'm negotiating, because I also do negotiation,
yeah, then then I, I will tap into that order.
Maybe more rapt energy zone. Yeah.
But is that also because at that point it's sort of expected,
it's part of the game that you have to be able to bluff a bit?
Maybe yes, but sometimes people kind of get can get aggressive
in conversations, right? And then you don't want to be
nice. Like sometimes people say, yeah,
yes, I really want this and this, this, and some people
could be like this in a negotiation.
Then I don't want to be the nice smiling women because then we're
negotiating. And most of the time, that's
what I mostly say about don't take that personal.
It's it's the negotiation game. And I had to learn that from
male Pierce that hey, Henny, it's not personal.
Sometimes it's like a game, the negotiation.
So yeah, maybe it it is. It is what you're saying that
I'm using that because part of the game.
Yeah, I can imagine. Have you had any mentors that
that taught you how to how to function?
Well, what I quickly found out when I started here is that I
was looking for knowledge which I couldn't find in the company.
So quite fast. I was going to all kinds of
start up events, join some communities.
We're also with young management.
That's a really good community for me because you can just talk
about the things you're facing. And I have some people,
sometimes I drink coffee with them or I ask them some stuff.
They are older, mostly meal though.
But I kind of ask them on those fires like hey, what should I do
in this situation? What should be the next step?
Because I really found out that not all knowledge is inside the
company because you are building the company.
So you have to look for the people, and I sometimes call
them mentors because it's just the people that I asked for
advice to. OK, so do you, you have, let's
say, a network of people that you have to talk to, to ask for
advice? Exactly.
I think that's one of the most important things of, you know,
being successful, trying to become successful is find the
right people around you because you also will need people that
support you. Because I also went when I was
saying like, hey, I might be becoming a co-owner of Pluto,
that I had quite some friends saying like, hey, you shouldn't
do it. It's a risk.
I mean, you just don't become as you have to buy part of the
company and it's kind of a risk. And if I wouldn't have other
people surrounding me, maybe from the network clubs, some
other entrepreneurs that I knew, they really were like, hey, you
should do it. Take the chance.
And maybe like, because I don't have a family network that would
support me that as well, because I'm not an entrepreneurial
family, maybe if I wouldn't have the right people surrounding me,
maybe I never dared to take the leap so.
In, in, in female leadership, it's so important to also have
people surrounding you that support you.
OK, I want to double click on one one thing at at some point
you get the offer to become a co-owner.
What what changed? Did you observe any change in in
how people response responded to you as a person before and
after? And I'll, I'll preface this
because I I talked to Esther Bishop.
It's episode 93 for those who are listening.
And in the episode she shares about her experience
transitioning from an employee at an e-learning company to
being a co-owner and that all of a sudden for her, things change,
even though for her Co workers, then all of a sudden they became
her employees. Yeah.
And that's that's sort of shifted dynamics and energy.
I was wondering how that was with you.
Yeah, it's interesting because sometimes change are subtle, but
I think the person who had the hardest time with the change was
me, because I was already kind of leading the company from a
commercial perspective, maybe some colleagues now.
So she's one of the Co owners, but I think a lot of customers
already thought somehow that I was a co-owner.
So that that was doing pretty well.
Only sales negotiations went easier because suddenly I can
say I'm the co-owner and then they kind of sound stupid, but
they kind of respect you a little bit more.
But for me, I've worked, they were my bosses, my Co founders
for a couple of years and suddenly I was their equal.
And like they're 50 plus. That's why I love that I took
the chance. Like they, they, they, they are
the, the, the white Gray men and they, they supported me and for
my young age and gave me this chance.
They didn't find it hard that I joined.
But for myself, I was always like, you're still in my head.
It took so much time that they to shift that from home.
They are my bosses to they are my equals.
And I think it took me two years to get to that point that I also
saw myself as equal. That was the hardest part, so.
What did you have to shift in your mind?
That my opinion is equally important and that they are not
anymore the, the, the final decision makers, but that I am
also one of them. And it's not that they they
acted like I wasn't one of them. It was more mentally in my own
ads that I really had to make the shift like, oh, I'm
important, more important this now as well.
And I can also make decisions on my own instead of like always
having to fertify that. Yeah, so you had to learn to
take space. Yeah, I had to learn to take
space and they never worked against me.
It was really a thing for myself.
Yeah. So did you have any help with
that? Well, first I didn't really talk
about it, you know, And I was a little bit stubborn.
I was like, oh, this will be fine.
And at one point I was blocking myself.
I felt like I was blocking myself.
And then I started talking to people about it.
And then I talked to some friends about it who were also
like, entrepreneurship, stuff like that.
And then I also would have the conversations with them.
And somehow that cleared the air for me.
And then everything went better. OK, Yeah.
I had to talk about it, you know.
Yeah. How how did you sort of find for
yourself that you had to start talking about it?
What? What were signals?
I. Felt that you felt that you
knew. OK, I'm so stuck now that I need
help from other people to get unstuck.
Which is great if you if you actually find out.
Yeah, well, I, I had a huge imposter syndrome, I would say.
And I kind of felt during management team that I didn't
always say what I wanted to say. And, and, and it made me feel
very even happy at the end of the day.
You know, it was like there was like this itch and I was like,
I'm not happy with how I see myself in this.
But I also knew that that was my own thing.
It comes from my youth. I knew where it come from.
So it was also interesting because it's also linked on like
the the convictions you have about yourself, right?
It's all about your youth and what you made through there.
And then suddenly in work life it comes there as well.
So I went also to therapy. So yeah, I also took some
therapy on that because there were some blockers from my youth
that made that I didn't take space for myself because I
thought it wasn't worth that. And and because of therapy, I
also tried to talk with my friends about it and things
became more clear and took care of some traumas.
And now I feel much better. Yeah.
So therapy does help.
Yeah, for me, it helps. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Because sometimes it's not always about what you feel right
now. What you're blocking right now
is something from now. I found out it was from my past,
something I didn't take care of. So yeah, I had to take care of
that as well to go further business wise.
Yeah, it's powerful. I'm sort of in that type of
shift. I'm looking for a different type
of therapy. A friend of mine does what is
called healings or it's called compassion key healings.
If you want to Google it, feel free and don't don't blame me
for doing it, it's just. Yeah, you have to try stuff and.
Find out what. Works for you.
Yeah, yeah. And also, but also look at,
let's say, things that happened in the past and and see it that
I have stayed on the shelf for a really long time and that are
not now not working for me anymore.
Because so far I could hide those parts.
And I will soon feel like, hey, maybe this doesn't work for me.
So I need to start taking care of it.
So yeah. And then there's the same what I
saw, like I could deal with this for a long time and I couldn't
anymore. And then you know you have to do
something. But thanks for sharing.
Yeah, it's, it's something that isn't talked about a lot or
enough that's. Taboo sometimes, isn't it?
Well, it's going to help so much people and I think, but that's
also because it's about women disrupting tech.
But for men, it's even harder to go to therapy because there's
also bias on that, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.
For women, it's sort of accepted in a sense.
For men, I don't think it's really accepted at all.
No, should be. Should be it's because it's
actually I, the more I look into it, the more I hear that it's
actually quite normal also for men.
And that is actually also quite needed for men to talk about
their feelings, to talk about things that may have happened in
the past that they didn't feel comfortable with or that that
sort of blocked them now that that have an impact.
So yeah. Yeah, well, good that you're
taking the step. Yeah, yeah.
I took a bit of took a bit of time and a bit of courage, but
yeah, here we are. So.
Yeah, I took me a lot of time as well to get there.
So I think that's normal, isn't it?
Yeah. Yeah, I think so too.
It just takes, I was talking to to that friend and she also, OK,
why now? And I told her, well, initially
I didn't really know what I wanted to get out of it.
So, and now I know that that it's sort of sort of a readiness
thing you have to get ready for to accept for yourself, but also
to in my case at least to find a sort of quote UN quote use case.
Yeah, it makes sense. And yeah, it is not easy
therapy, you know, it takes time, a lot of mental effort.
It does help you further, but you kind of have to be ready for
it. And I postponed it for years as
well, and I knew. Because you were afraid of the
consequence of what you were were going to dig up.
Yeah, I think afraid of pain, and a lot of it was hard to go
to the traumas. I mean, I had EMDR, so that's
not fun. It's very useful.
Like trauma therapy, it's not very useful, but it's really
heavy. And it means that you have to go
to things you don't want to talk, think about.
You push it away all the time, but you know, your body keeps
score, so they are there anyway. And yeah, it's confronting, I
think. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, that's still waiting
for me, but we'll help. Maybe you'll make a podcast
about it one day. Yeah, well, probably I will.
It's just because it's also, I think it's also intellectual
concept of, of therapy. I've I've had a few podcasts
about therapy and mental health so far so I I know a bit about
it but I think the the the whole mental health aspect is really
underserved and under how do you say not under researched, under
highlighted and deserves much more credit than it gets.
Also, from a business perspective, if I don't feel
well mentally, I cannot take care of the company and of my
employees. So it should be like a #1
priority. It it doesn't mean that I can
always make it because I also sometimes neglect my mental
health until I need to take some more time for that.
But if I don't feel well, I'm not creative.
I cannot support people. I cannot do good sales calls.
So yeah, we should take care of ourselves more, isn't it?
Yeah. Absolutely.
I want to go back to our prep conversation because you told me
that your partner actually encourages you to be role.
Yeah, he does. I never thought about that.
But what does it mean to you being a role model?
So that was also a little bit like, hey, why should I be the
role model? You know, like I'm just doing my
thing and I'm liking it and I also have insecurities.
But he told me because he is also in tech, he's but from the
tech side. So he's a principal engineer,
very techie, very smart. And so he also works mainly with
men, of course, and in the SAS business.
And he said like, well, honey, the hardly women like you.
And also like, I'm also in my sorority and I also organized an
ambitious day because I really feel like we women can do a lot,
even if you don't always have the right backgrounds.
And he said, like, well, you lead by example.
I mean, you're very enthusiastic, but you do it from
your own perspective and you're making it successful.
And he said to me, like, I think it inspires a lot of people.
And when I look back, there were quite some people women said to
me, like, you inspire me, but you always push it a little bit
aside. But I was like, oh, yeah, but if
I can aspire only one person, why not?
And and the only way to do that is to stay yourself and use your
own energy, know your own power. So I felt a little bit
uncomfortable when he was saying that like a role model, role
model. But I do think that I made
different choices than some people.
And that did let me to my happy life.
So if I can, yeah, inspire people with that, why not?
Yeah. But what I'm also hear you say
that you actually have to be happy with your comfortable with
yourself to step into that role. I think so because you know, IA
lot of people think of themselves as an outsider and I
think I had that as well. I also have that.
And at one point I was like, OK, people always have the opinions
of me. Example was a becoming a
co-owner. I think most people said I
shouldn't do it, but I really tried to like focus more on what
do I want instead of what does the world want from me.
And for me, it feels 100% that I'm currently leading the life
that I'm supposed to live. And if you know a little bit
about my backgrounds, my both parents died when I was quite
young. I thought they couldn't support
me in this whole journey. But it also made me realize that
life is quite short. And as it's too short to keep
listening to what other people want, if you want to do
something different. And I hope more people will do
that. And there's a great quote by
Steve Jobs about this. Don't let the voices of other
drown out your inner voice. Exactly.
And if you look backwards, you can always connect the dots.
That's what he says as well. And for me it feels as well like
that. You're also quite feasible in in
SAS and in tech right now or I think because of also because of
the role you have. What do you wish more people
would understand what SAS and being a woman in SAS and tech is
actually like? It's not as scary as people
think it is. And it doesn't mean you have to
be a hardcore coder to work in tech.
You just you. I think there should be some
part of you that likes innovation or software or
whatever, but it doesn't mean you have very to be very
technical to be successful in SAS.
I think a lot of people think they should know a lot about
coding and stuff like that, but that's not true.
Yeah, that's that's true that a lot of people still think that
tech is coding and putting things together like Lego and
then they're do you think it's afraid, people being afraid of
failing that they don't try? Yeah, so for me it was also
about growing up, you know, like I, I think if I would have a
different education, I would probably end up here as well.
And now it was more a coincidence.
Well, it's not a coincidence if you listen to Steve Jobs.
But it's also maybe because when I I grew up in a village and I'm
now 31 years old. But back then it was really like
girls play with Barbies and guys doing more technical stuff.
And because we are not immersed in the more tech part, we might
think that it's not suitable for us.
But that's not true at all. So maybe if because we don't
know, it doesn't mean that we cannot do it.
Yeah. But do I then also understand
that you think it has to do with immersion in so, so being really
immersed and also to to an extent being curious, I I guess.
Yeah, I think it's of course. I think a curious mind is a joy
forever. Always keep learning, of course,
but I also like if you never try is and that's also about whole
education. And like parents can also play a
role in that in showing not because you're a women, you have
to do something social and as a guy, you have to do something
technical. I think in her whole technical
educational system, we need to try and get everybody get in
touch with that and that's improving.
I know that, but I knew that when I grew up there was like a
huge split up between the different genders.
Yeah, yeah, that was true for me as well.
Yeah. Even though I'm 20 years older
than you are the same things. Like girls.
Well, yeah, actually, Barbie was around, so.
Yeah, girls were playing with dolls and guys were playing with
cars and. I never liked Barbies.
There was a problem when I. Oh yeah, that was that must have
been difficult. Yeah, those were stupid.
And too superficial and I just want to play on a computer.
Yeah, but that's one of the things I still want to to just
rewind on. You were interested in
computers, but they said it was not necessary at school, so they
didn't let you. Yeah.
So like when you guys do the 4th grade right then they you can
always choose the subjects and I wanted to choose a subject,
computer science subject and they said like, no, we're not
offering it because it's not important.
And I. Not not offering it to periods.
We're not offering it to women. No, not offering it because he
said it's not. And one of the reasons that I
wanted to work at a learning company is because I was so
frustrated with my high school. If I look back, it's like I
really was when I graduate, like I want to change this.
So because I did, I didn't agree with a lot of things.
So I think that that triggered also something like why?
Why not? And when I look back, I'm like,
how could they say that subject is not important and also they
will not offer? It that's that's knowledge of
hindsight. Yeah, it is but the.
Hindsight in this case, we're talking 2004 to 2005, I guess
around that time, 2006. 1515 years ago, yeah.
So back then the Internet, like if it was wet because I actually
got the chance to do some computer sciences on the side.
So to learn to code oboe, this is 901985.
And we were like girls and boys, heavily encouraged, hey, you
have to do this. This is the future 85.
So I'm a bit surprised about people saying in 2006, like 20
years later, like was not important.
You don't need that. When I when I told my boyfriend
this, he was really angry. Yeah, yeah.
But. Yeah, at the end it all sound
pretty well. Yeah, hey, let's talk about
Provo. Yes, maybe go to tell people
what Provo does. So Provo is a learning
management system that's always sounds a bit bit bit boring, but
it's not because organisations, they can only grow when people
are growing, right? And a lot of companies, they
just want to have a central place for that.
So think about creating E learnings.
So I don't have to explain people all the time.
I stuff work organising meetings, making learning
journeys for onboarding, but also the compliancy parts.
So when people get an audit, they can say like, hey, we
educated our people all the time and we built a complete platform
for that, for in organizations to manage that and to make that
as easy as possible. So that's what we do.
OK. So just to be clear, you don't
do the content of the E learnings, but you do do the
process around it to lock if people completed stages to or
completed educations to certifications to keep them
updated to the making it audible auditable for let's say if you
have a let's just take an ISO certification as as a basin.
Yeah, yeah. That's what we do.
And they can create their own E learnings, but we don't offer
the contents because a lot of companies when you go do to an
onboarding at Bluevol will be different when you go to your
company through an onboarding. So we, we try to make it as easy
as possible as well for them to share that knowledge within
minutes, we always say, but especially organize it as well.
And we're getting more and more customers that have to work with
obligatory trainings, compliance requirements, legislation is
changing. So that's also an important
aspect. So sharing the knowledge but
also checking do people actually know and are they are they
certified to do their job? What do people get or what do
companies get wrong when it comes to this?
What do they get wrong? Like in general sense.
Yeah, what do they not understand about the need to to
have systems like evolve? Yeah, I think a lot of times I
think like, oh, we can can do it on our own.
And then they spend like hours a week trying to like change the
excels losing stuff, but also losing people because it's also
about personal development. And we know the younger
generations find that even more important than salary.
So it's also about not investing in your employees.
And if you're doing it and it's everywhere, it's scattered.
It takes so much time and money. So they have to transition that.
But sometimes they think like, no, we just put it in Excel and
it should be fine. But then you're not really
motivating your employees to actually grow and learn.
No. And and yeah, that's, that's
really important. And it becomes more important
with new generations coming in. So.
So how'd? So that's maybe the
misconception, isn't it, that I'm going to say she don't think
that learning and development is important, but it is.
It's the only way you. Can survive that would like
really be interesting if you think learning is not important.
Yeah, well, they say it's important, but we don't want to
spend time on it. Yeah, but then, then it's not
important. No, exactly.
If you just focus on the productivity part of people and
even then I think people need need to learn new processes.
So at some point. I would say if you're not
focusing on learning, on development of your employees,
your company will not grow anymore and you might go
bankrupt. I think it's essential and I
think we're getting more and more there because you know,
life is changing quicker and quicker.
So, so we see a lot of companies they become more conscious on
like, oh, we should do that pretty well also because the new
generation really requires it. But that doesn't mean that all
companies realize it yet. They hopefully will, but not
everyone but. That's interesting.
I would think that nowadays with the speed that AI is developing
and number of other technical developments and increase of
requirements, people, especially let's say the larger companies
would be like, OK, we need to wrap something around it.
Yeah. And and that's why it's a good
business where we're in because more companies are realizing it.
But that's a shift we're going through.
Yeah. So.
So what is the shift then? I think that the consciousness
on how important it is to invest in learning development, I
really see there's like more and more companies.
First, it should be something that HR does.
A lot of companies get a special person that does the learning
development part. We really see like the amount of
in the SMEs, for example. So like learning management was
done in, in the corporates and we focus more on the SMEs that
that part is really growing. And also the SME mark is now
like, hey, if we don't invest in our employees, they will walk
away and we cannot replace them because we have a lack of
people. Yeah, I know.
And a lack of knowledge. And a lack of knowledge?
Yes, Exactly. Yeah.
Because then essentially what I'm hearing you say is your
company literally bleeds to death.
I would say so, yeah. So what kind of customers come
to you? So it's SME.
Yeah, it's a lot of factories and production locations, but
it's also government and it's also like artists, The Royal
Zoo, they use it as well to like, educate their employees
and their volunteers. So it's kind of diverse.
One thing they have in common is they want to share their own
knowledge and they are willing to invest in their employees.
Yeah. OK.
So if you're hearing this and you have you want to preserve
knowledge and educate your employees and keep your
employees in boards, then yeah. Send me a message.
Yeah, just look at our website, of course.
But you can also say like, hey, I listen to the podcast.
Yeah, it will be nice. OK, So what?
What does PO look like in five years, you think?
Yeah, that's a good question. I had to apply for tender and
they asked for us for the five year road map.
And honestly things are going so fast right now.
I can I know where we will be like in one year, but where we
will exactly be in five years. It could be anywhere in that
sense like because technology is evolving, we're investing in AI
quite a lot. But in five years, we will have
so much more technologies and political, of course, go with
that. But I cannot really tell you
what it looks like. But if you're asking where we're
currently focusing on is like we have like a compliance part
that's completely ready. We will add a lot of AI features
that make it even more possible and easy for people to do
everything around learning management.
And we are already expanding abroad right now.
So we're getting more and more companies outside of the
Netherlands. So I hope we will be a
sustainable player on a European market that people in in a lot
of the countries in Europe will use Pluto.
That's my dream. OK.
Which countries are you expanding into?
Germany, England. So we already have some
customers in England, Belgium, Slovenia, for some reason Spain.
But one of the first target marks is Germany, because they
lost always a little bit later than the Netherlands, but they
have a lot of obligatory training needs.
So that means a great market for us, a lot of factories, lot of
industry, which fits perfect to the how Pluto can be used.
So that will be the first country, yeah, that we want to
penetrate. And that's then partially driven
by compliance needs. Yes, yeah, because we found out
companies, they want to invest in employees, but they don't
feel the pain. There's more like a Fitzman.
Yeah. However, if they have to do deal
with compliance needs, it will be a painkiller.
And then they are much, much more needed and required to
invest in a system like us because they have to and they do
it with Excel. And that's not durable when
you're with 200 people. So there's a need, there's a
pain. So that's for us.
Bite fits up pretty well. And then the fight men that your
employees stay on board is, is a sort of sweeter deal sweeter.
Yeah, it shouldn't be, right, It shouldn't be.
But we just see in the serious trajectories that's.
I'm just struggling with this. I don't know the German markets,
Joe Parks, but everywhere I hear there's a shortage of people, so
maybe that's a pain. It should be a pain and but that
that's what I see and that that's interesting.
So I have sometimes like these, these conversations, like we
have a lack of people, therefore we cannot invest in our people.
And that's weird, isn't it? But they're like, we don't have
time because we don't have the people.
And you know what will happen? More and more people will leave.
So I, I see that around me, right?
And not not I see this happening.
Yeah. So to they they put themselves
in a in a sort of infinite loop, infinite spiral downwards.
Until the pain is too big and then they.
Right until there's regulation coming in that says thou shalt
educate on decision this and then they.
Well, they tried that in Belgium with a system that you like,
have so much education, all days and hours for your job.
It's not so easy. But yeah, I think as a company
you should be internally motivated to educate your people
and give them the chances to grow because it helps you as
well as a company. Yeah, it's an interesting
parallel with diversity, I have to say, because everyone knows
that it is better for your company to have a diverse team,
to have a diverse employee base. Yet do you see that in in tech
that it's that idea is catching on?
Of hiring more diverse. Teams, yeah.
Well, it's a thing I know a lot of people talk about, but if you
look at the marks, for example, about investments in more
diverse teams. What's happening?
It's something we talk people talk about, but I'm not quite
sure if things are really changing.
How do we create pain there you think?
Yeah. Then you have the discussion
about shouldn't we regulate it a little bit more?
And then you have the liberal people saying like, no, we
should be free. However, if we don't regulate
it, probably things will not change.
Is it? Now I had an interesting
discussion with people from from Femstart about how to get more
investments in women, in female entrepreneurs.
And my, I think it was my own spear who said, well, we just
had need to flood the market with female entrepreneurs
because they, they, they, they, they just have to finance just
because there's no others other way to well, finance.
I love that. So it just means that we need to
stimulate female entrepreneurship much more.
Yeah, yeah. And that's why I like as a
female entrepreneur, I think you should stimulate that around
you. You should don't be the person
that said to me, don't do it. I'll always say that people have
to do it and follow the heart and try to motivate them to to,
to take those steps. We can take it.
Like dear young you and me, we can be an example.
And maybe if people listen to this podcast and they're
listening to your protocols specifically, like you have more
episodes in this, I think that that's also a medium that can
inspire people to take the leap. I hope it is if, if people are
listening, if women are less. If there's a woman listening
though she's she wants to try working in tech or she wants to
try be an entrepreneur. She doesn't feel she has some
background or the education. What do you tell her?
Just do it, just try like you can always go back if you don't
like it. It's if you never try, you will
always regret not trying it. That's yeah.
But that's me. I'm always like go, let's go, if
because. Yeah, it's, it's it.
Yeah, I, I, I have this theory I was thinking about this morning
when I rode my bicycle to work. And it's it's it for me
personally, there's like this little flame sometimes inside
me, this little energy bulb. And I feel like I want to do
something. And for me.
And I know more people have that, that, you know, like what
you just told me about your ID before the podcast.
You know, when you feel the spark, Yeah.
And of course you you get in certain and in doubt.
But when you feel the spark, I think you should always follow
it. Yeah, and it's magical if if you
do. I was literally this morning in,
as I call it, stouter motors. Yeah.
Exactly like that. I like.
Like really aesthetic almost, but in a positive way.
In a positive way, it's one of the.
Best things ever. Yeah.
Oh yeah, absolutely. And for the listeners who are
thinking what the heck, stay tuned.
Stay tuned. It will.
It will come to your podcast feed at some point that I tell
you about this. Any I was there's one one more
question about this that I was wondering about.
We talked about adopting a growth mindset.
How does that play? I think that changes your whole
life. I think a lot of people are
stuck in a fixed mindset. I cannot do it.
I cannot learn it. I mean, it doesn't mean that I
never had that as well, but when I learned that's nice about
working in a learning company, you know, you learn a lot of
learning theories and you also have this effect.
One point is the golem effect and you have the other ones.
If you tell a class that they are stupid, they will have like
lower grades. And when you tell them they are
smart, it's the same as you can tell yourself if I I know it can
learn it. So I see it a lot in my sport.
I don't call aesthetics. It means that I have to learn
weird stuff like gymnastics a little bit that when I tell
myself I cannot do something, I cannot do it.
And I know when I know like I can do it, some of the stuff
clicks. And I think that's the same with
entrepreneurship or your career. Your own mindset is so important
in everything that you do. And if you only talk negatively
and think like, oh, I cannot learn it, of course you will
not. But I really believe that you
can learn anything. And I think that people should
always try to learn everything that they want to learn because
also because of coding, I was not very technical.
And then I decided this Christmas that I want to take a
hacker course. At first I was like, oh, I'm
not, I'm not. I didn't have like a technical
education, but it's like, oh, I can learn.
If anything, it was really fun actually.
Yeah, yeah, curiosity and and learning things is absolutely
fun. Exactly.
Even though we get taught at school by our classmates that
it's that you're not school if you're learning.
Yeah, at. Least I was taught that, yeah.
Because you were a book nerd, so I would say no.
No, no I wasn't. Actually I was quite the
opposite from a book nerd. I didn't start reading until I
was like 10 I think. OK.
At least I read, but I was like too lazy much more.
It was more a television person. But no.
But I was keen to get the knowledge.
So I would be really sitting silent in front of the
classroom, which is like not the thing cool boys do that's.
Not learning right at school. You're not supposed to.
It's you're supposed to neg the teacher etcetera anyway.
You like learning? I I, I always like learning and
it's still, yeah, still helps me deal with curiosity problems,
let's say. Yeah, that's, that's interesting
because like in Dutch you have the same news sheet and they
always cope me like that. And I thought it was a bad
thing. You know, I was like, oh, I
asked too many questions. Yeah, and there's no such thing,
I think. Oh, if we know back then that
was a good thing. You know, you have to be
curious. And I know my teacher told me
like, you're too curious. And then I look back like, oh,
but it's good. Curious.
Yeah, how can men adopt A growth mindset when it comes to making
tech more inclusive? Yeah, I got this question
beforehand and then I was really thinking about it.
I also discussed it with my colleagues like, hey, what do
you think I get? Got a point blank.
They were like, I don't know. And I mean.
Thanks for confirming my business idea by the way anyway.
Yeah, exactly. So they were like, so for me
personally, like my, my Co founders, you know, they, they
gave, they really gave me as a 24 years old women the chance to
do my own thing. And they never judged me as
being a woman they'd really like.
Oh, I want we want to give her the chance to do this with us.
So that that that that's also about that, like if, if chances
to people and motivate them to do it.
So that that was for me a big deal changer.
If they wouldn't be as open, like they're not like typical,
like, Hey, I want to protect my own part.
They were really like, Oh, we give you the chance because we
believe in you and I, I find it important that they told me
that, you know, like they they really created the space for me
to grow into the purse where I'm now.
But what I was also thinking about was in tech in general, is
that a lot of tech is also developed and tested on men.
So I think if you're talking about inclusive tech, it should
also be like, hey, in your whole from the product point of view,
like, hey, how do you develop it?
Who do you develop it and with whom are you testing it?
So that's that's was also a thought that crossed my mind.
So more inclusive test panels as well.
Yeah, I should. Be but also if if I can just
rewind, I think it's more like OK half of your customer base
will be a woman so why is it only men developing at it?
You could say that and we have one female developer now.
I was so happy with that because it was not the easiest to find.
How how has that changed the the product?
That's a good question. Well, I think a lot of things
have changed general in the company the past few years.
So I'm not quite sure like what was that specific change.
But I think I think it's better for the development team in
general that they also have like a different point of view in
developing. But did you actually see that
also feed in in terms of of the discussions that were?
Yeah, because I'm not very developed, like I'm not very in
the product team. Of course.
I mean, I, I talk with them and and I see stuff, but it's not my
team. But I see, I see.
I saw a shift. It's more cooperative, I would
say, yeah. That's good, right?
So that's a good thing. But yeah, I mean in the future I
would like to have a 5050 at trying to get there, but it's
not as easy as it as it sounds. Is is that because what?
What makes it difficult to hire more women in the development
area? I think if we do like
application then I think 90% of the applicants are male so.
So there's 7% women. Yeah, it's, it's not so much.
And most of them that apply of course, like they don't qualify
at all, like male and female, but we don't get a lot of
applicants. And I have the same when I had a
sales vacancy, I mostly got male respondents.
So that's interesting. Like, hey, how are we
formulating A vacancy? And I think that sales and
development guys mostly, oh, we can do sales, but I believe that
women are mostly better in sales because we can listen better.
But a lot of women think now I can do account management, but
not like sales, sales. Well, so there's also like, how
do you perceive a specific job description?
Yeah, it's, it's, it's a matter of wording.
At least that's what I know from a number of episodes that that
actually the text of the, of the the vacancy or the job ads that
you have actually does matter a lot to to the point that if you
put underneath like, hey, we know that from, from data that
women only apply when they meet 110% of the requirements.
But we want to invite you to apply anyway, even if you meet
40, because the guys will start applying at 40 and bluff their
way through the remaining 60. Yeah, which and I think that
because we are not recruiter experts, so we always use
recruiters for it. So hopefully they will get
better in it as well. Yeah.
So one thing I learned from a recruiter is that they will come
up with the most probable candidate to meet your
requirements, which is usually someone that looks like them or
looks like someone who have they've hired before.
So there's a lot of implied bias there.
Yeah, I believe that as well. And I know there's also shift
going on there. You have like these tech tools,
it's make it easier to use. But then we're still like SME.
So I'm not investing €100,000 to get a tool like that.
But I hope that with all the columns of technology, we can
make positive shifts in it as well.
Cool, sounds like a great place to to close Henny Oxcar.
Thanks very much for an amazing conversation.
Really enjoyed this. Also the the insight about
mental health and about therapy. Yeah.
Thanks for that. Yeah, thank you as well for this
lovely conversation. Thanks for inviting.
Yeah, if people want to learn more about you or about Pluvo,
where would you like to send them?
Well, you can always add me on LinkedIn and Youth Star and
Pluvo. You can also look on our website
pluvo.com. Cool.
And we'll include those links in the show notes.
Henny, thank you very much. Thanks, Nurse.
Yeah. This nurse, thank you very much
for listening and until the next episode, keep being awesome.
Well, that's it for episode 120 of Women Disrupting Tech with
Henny Hoekstra, titled How Curious Minds Build Better
Companies in Tech Henny, and I hope that our conversation
encourages you to use your curiosity as a superpower.
If you have any questions for Henny, please leave them in the
comments on Spotify, Apple, or YouTube.
I'll make sure you'll receive an answer.
When you want to connect with Henny or learn more about Plevo,
please check out the links in show notes.
As usual, you can find the show notes at Women's Distributing
Tech or Block, and the link is also in the description.
If you've enjoyed listening to this episode, please consider
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And until then, as always, keep being awesome.