Welcome to Women Disrupting Tech.
My name is dear Kanupkas, and on this podcast, I give the women
who work in tech the platform they need to inspire and empower
each other. Join me on a journey into the
world of entrepreneurship, funding biases, and role models
to discover the strategies for success in the tech industry.
In other words, how women can disrupt tech.
Are you ready to listen? Hey, welcome back to Women
Disrupting Tech, and thank you for tuning in to episode 119.
As you know, only 2% of venture capital goes to all female
founding teams. That's one of the most
persistent inequalities in tech, and it's a number that has
barely changed in the past decades.
My guests today are Ian Cavan Eichen from VP Capital and Mount
from Merlin from Golden Egg Check.
Together they lead women in VCNLA community of more than 170
women changing who gets funded. We talk about how they break
open the closed networks that shut women out, challenge the
stereotypes around risk that hold female founders back, and
build the education infrastructure that women in VC
need to advance. By the end of this episode,
you'll understand why closing the funding gap is not just
about fairness. It's about creating smarter
systems and better opportunities for everyone.
So when you're ready to discover how women in VCNL close the
funding gap, please welcome to women disrupting tech, Erica von
Ehren and mount for Merlin. Erica von Ehren, mount for
Merlin. Welcome to women disrupting
tech. It's an honor to have you.
Question I always ask at the start is how you got into your
current job and current positions.
And Erica, let's start with you. Yes.
So I've actually always believed that capital is one of the most
powerful levers for driving positive change and development.
And my my first real awareness on how equal access, unequal
access to finances between men and women was actually when I
was working for FMO in the Middle East and Northern Africa.
But what actually struck me even more was realizing that this
imbalance isn't limited to emerging markets.
It's just as present here in Europe and especially within the
venture capital industry. And that realization led me to
join Borsky Fund, which is a fund that is investing in tech
companies or female founders. And I saw what I saw was just a
direct way to address the funding gap and to really help
diversify the kinds of innovations that receive that
backing. And today, I, I continue that
journey at VP Capital, which is a family office to well
dedicated to sustainable and inclusive impacts.
And because the shifts in capital flows go hand in hand
with reshaping who sits at the investor table, I pursue that
that mission through the women in VC in in the Netherlands as
well. So we really work to build a
more balanced and representative investor community that drives
broader and more meaningful change.
Yeah. So that that's actually what
brought me to VP, but women in VC in particular.
OK. Thank you and I'm out.
How about you? Yeah.
So my first experience with the entrepreneurial ecosystem, to
say it like that started during my bachelor and I did an
internship at it's best Inc and I joined their pressure cooker
program with a startup. And that's where I found that
working with startups is something that I really enjoy
and also energize me a lot. So working with founders that
have like passions and they really want to change something
in the world and they're working on, on the big societal
problems. So that's something that I, that
I, yeah, really inspires me as well and motivates me to work
together with them and how I got into my current position.
So today I'm working for Golden Egg Check as investment
associate. And I got in contact with
Thomas, well, a few years ago when I was writing my thesis on
the team factors that VC funds look at.
And we kept in touch actually. And yeah, since the 1st of May,
I joined, I joined the Golden Egg Check.
Yeah, wow. Congratulations on that.
Sounds like a really cool place to work VP Capital.
So by the way, but Thomas has been on my radar ever since I
started this journey myself. So he's quite also quite focal,
I think about having a more balanced ecosystem.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah.
And about the funding gap, I joined women in FEC 1 1/2 year
ago. So I went to, besides my job
that, well, back then, I was working for the regional
development agency in IT. And yeah, I wanted to do more on
my network. And I saw it was actually the
first time that I saw that the capital is so like weirdly
divided or distributed across the ecosystem.
And I read the news and all the the data and statistics on see
more entrepreneurship. And then yeah, I wanted to do
something about that as well and also help women in their PC
careers. And I just started my own PC
career. So also help young women in in
their career. Yeah, to get to know each other.
And yeah, that's when when I asked if I could join the board
of women in PC. And I'm very happy that I did it
because I get a lot of energy from this and from networking
with women in the sector and also with with women founders.
OK, so just to double click on that, why does it give you
energy except for the the connection part, which I
understand. What what What makes for you
that it's like makes it alive? Yeah, I think it's also part of
the problem that we're going to talk about.
But I think it's just like women like the, this, the sector is a
male dominated sector. And originally there were many
men working in, in the sector And you see that that women had
a hard time or like it, it was probably less attractive to
women this sector. And as a young woman in in
venture capital, I find it important that opportunities are
equal. And also for me.
So while I'm like building my own career in this sector and,
and well, hoping that I'm seen as equal as well and also trying
my best for it, I also want other people to know that they
are equal, that they deserve to to be taken seriously.
And yeah, that's something that also personally touches me.
And I've seen many young women that have a heart.
I mean, boardrooms, for example, they're not taken seriously or
they're yeah, people just interrupt them.
So I feel like, yeah, we should stand out and do something about
that and and show so that everyone has a place, can have a
place at the table, regardless of their age or their gender.
Yeah. So Erica, what is your
experience with that? Yeah, I, I totally conquer with
that. And I think it's, it's for me,
what really drives me as well is to see that you actually as a
woman, you kind of face similar challenges in this sector in
particular. And that just well, just
bringing all these women together and, and well, just
making well have open conversations about the
challenges that we face really helps in just well become
stronger, but but really help out in in just kind of
progressing in your career, but also in indeed your interactions
with other Co investors or boards members.
So it, it's really, I see such a strength of just having that
network and, and really strengthening or feeding that by
well organising events or other types of education or trainings.
So maybe good to get a bit of a feel of the landscape here.
Is is there like like there are in, in terms of female founders,
I think it's about 60, forty, 40% women, 60% men, if I'm not
mistaken in the Netherlands. How is that on the on the
investor side and especially with women in positions where
they actually can. Yeah, how to say pull the
trigger? Yeah.
So that's still really low. Actually.
We've seen that over the last years.
There are more women and younger women as well entering the VC
job market, so to say. But currently actually there was
a research done by the MVP and level 20 and they researched
that in 2025, said this year there's 18% of the professionals
in VC is women, so 118. And in 2023 that was 15%.
So it increased a little bit, which is good to see.
But we've seen that that mostly increased on the junior and
meteor levels and in senior positions, there's still only 9%
women working in in senior level positions.
So one in eleven decision makers in VC is a woman?
How did that happen? Is that, is that something that
just happened because it was initially a male, totally male
invented markets I would even say or is that because women?
Yeah. Yeah, I think VC really thrives
on informal networks and local networks.
So you have to basically, yeah, share the deal with each other
just because of like willingness and connections.
So there's any yeah, information that's actually kept between
these informal networks and because there were less women in
these sectors. Yeah, originally.
I think it's, it's more difficult or it can be more
difficult for them to yeah, to have access to all this
knowledge or networks or deal flow or so that was originally,
right. Luckily, we see now that yeah,
women are breaking into CC and it's very, very good for the
sector, not only for the funds, but also for investing in female
founders because the the lack of of women is in decision making
positions in this sector also has a very big impact on on how
much capital is distributed to women founders.
So we do see a change. But I think that that, yeah, the
the reason for this is the informal networks or one of the
Yeah. Erica, you want to add?
Yeah, I would like to add to that as well.
And and actually echo also what Mao T is saying.
But I, I think 1 is indeed maybe on the why on the investor side,
it's so male dominated. I, I think it's indeed, it is
something that is already, well, they're from, well, a long time
ago. It's already something that kind
of grew because the financial sector in itself is male
dominated. But it's also, I think if you
look at the funds that have been built, they indeed have been
built by men. And it's to, in order to kind of
create a culture among funds where you embrace more
diversity, not only women, but also other types of diversity,
you need certain mass and a certain changing culture in
order to kind of, well, be more inclusive in that.
And I think that's often still lacking.
What so you feel when I talk with other female investors, I
often hear that either funds are still just doing it in a very
kind of classical way, but also in terms of personal development
and and creating that culture. And I think there it is
something that certainly has to change and I think will change,
but it needs to come from both sides.
So the fund management as well as women becoming kind of more
well equipped and confident that they actually have that position
in the fund as well and never well and and very good say in
and good input in decision making as well.
So is it, is it, do I hear you say that in part, let's say the
the classical setup of the of the whole ecosystem, but also a
matter of women needing to be more confident about themselves.
I think it's indeed on both sides.
So, well, I think indeed women also need to kind of, well, kind
of or get more equipment or tools in order to thrive in CC.
But I think there also needs to be more openness for other types
and other ways of investing because I think I really would
never say that women just need to change in order to kind of
fit in the the C industry. I think the authenticity and the
actually the way they do it, not to generalise too much, but it
is brings actually a lot of diversity in decision making,
but also, as Mao said, in the types of investments that you
make. And I think that's link to
indeed the types of companies that are are being invested or
backed by VC. We were were really kind of
quite monotone in, in what type of companies we invest in.
Well, if you have more a more diverse VC team, you also see
that there are a lot of other types of opportunities in the
market that actually do deserve investments as well and really
make and return as well. So hence it is important to have
that diversity in the teams of VC funds.
Yeah, also to open up more, more opportunities in terms of of
widening the scope of of what is considered investable.
Exactly. But what I also heard you say,
I, I just want to touch back on that, is that it's also a matter
of, let's say, mass, the sheer number of women in VC.
So Mao, you indicated that currently there there, the book
of the women is in junior or media positions.
Do you know of that? There's a sort of structured
education plan of sorts to bring those up to the to the more
senior levels. Well, I haven't, I haven't heard
of that in infants for example. So I think that's partly what we
are doing with women in CC. We're trying to structure
education and network and we can tell you more about that later.
But so, so because there isn't, we are trying to to do it.
And I think sponsors, so, so people that support you and also
want you to grow into partner positions, for example, are very
important. So a sponsor is someone like
it's a role in a company. It's someone that helps you
actually grow into senior positions.
I think that's super, super important.
Because if that's not the case, like yeah, it's going to be very
difficult to to join a distance decision making position, right.
So I think also the board of if you see funds really need to
yeah, try and diversify their look or their the way that
they're currently doing things. And I think that the quickest.
What? What is standing in the way?
What? What is standing in the way of
that? Yeah.
Why? I mean, this is, this is a bit
just to go on a tangent here, this is a bit my frustration
with the whole topic is that we have known since well at least
2015, the diverse teams perform better.
We know from companies left, right and centre that if the,
the moment you promote women to leadership positions, the, the
culture changes in a positive way.
And I I'm like, OK, so what's keeping these quote, UN quote
guys in VC from making that change?
Yeah, I, I think it's it, it has several factors, but I, I think
it's, I think it's, it has to do also a lot with unconscious
bias. So not actually knowing that
you're working in such way and that other people that may not
well look in the same way as you do have have also interesting
inputs. So I think it's, it's often just
not knowing that and also the culture that you have built in
your fund is actually maybe not welcoming to everyone.
So I, I think it has to do with one on the the fund level.
I think it's, it's just will become more aware of your blind
spots and making sure that you will in the end be more
inclusive in well, gathering other inputs from others and
really appreciating, appreciating it.
So I think on, on that level, it's, it's lacking.
And I think also on the, what I also see is, well, people,
especially when they're younger, they, they kind of need to
indeed they need sponsors like Mod said, but you also need,
well, you need also a certain training in order to develop
and, and well, develop your personal skills and, and
technical skills. And I think that's in PC also
lacking a lot. There is very little budget.
For trainings, so there is actually almost none.
Well that also has to do with the cost structures of funds
often. But the the problem is that then
you'll have to find it somewhere outside and and that's something
that we really try to address with women if you see.
OK. So yeah, Mao, do you want to
chime in? Yeah, maybe in addition to that
as well as if you've started a fund with for men, for example,
you're also doing things the way you've already you've always
been doing it, right. So I think it's really changing
a narrative of your fund and also hiring a, a woman in this
team, but then keep a woman in the team of four male people
that are more senior perhaps in running this fund.
So it's also it, it requires also, yeah, adaptation skills of
the people that are already in the fund.
It's very difficult to actually hire a woman as a partner in a
fund with four men, for example, because that's still not equally
distributed, right. So also, yeah, a woman in a
partner position where most of the team is still male can be
still quite difficult. And I still hear that people
also in those positions, they yes, sometimes people don't let
them talk like they get interrupted all the time.
So that's, it's like the same problem, I think.
So it's also really indeed, like Erica said, also being open to
changing the way you work and be aware of the way that you look
at things and that other people can actually bring fresh and new
perspectives that maybe you, you yourself haven't thought about.
OK, Yeah. So I was, I'm wondering, yeah,
how can we bring this sense of urgency in?
Because if, if I hear you correctly, one, one of the
things that is lacking, there's education, of course there's I
was actually quite shocked by your remark that there's no
education budgets, Erica. Yeah.
Because I, I, I, I think that's like one of the base parts of
running a good company anywhere. Yeah.
And yeah. And I think, I think to that, I
think particularly the smaller funds that are that, that will
have just also more little or or smaller budgets because of the
management fee that is in the end related to the fund size,
which also kind of in the end leads to very little budget for,
for training. But the bigger the funds,
probably they'll they'll have bigger budgets.
So it also depends a bit on on well the type of fund.
But overall we see that there is very little money spent on
trainings, personal trainings. So that, that's why we kind of
take that role and, and, and people feel really kind of
personally motivated just to develop and, and work on their
skills, but it's not per SE something that is driven by old,
well, your, your, your partners. No, but yeah, then that that
keeps me wondering why, how we can get the sense of urgency in.
Is that is that also a matter of training or because I recognize
your remark amount on on if you're hiring a woman and you've
been running the front with four men, you tend to continue
running as as you've always done, maybe with with more
literally a fifth wheel on the wagon.
How do how do we get these guys to be more open, more
hospitable? Good question.
I think that's very difficult to answer because changing like
it's also in our culture, right? It's rooted, it's rooted in our
culture. So I think it's also very
difficult to change it, but I think there are more funds like
seeing that they're actually missing out on good deals or
diverse deal flow and that they're there.
There's also like, I don't want to say that people don't want to
change. They do want to change.
I have this this talk with my male counterparts as well.
And they, they also wanted to change, you know, but changing
it is, is difficult. So it's not that it's their
fault or something, but it's just going to take a lot of time
to, to make a culture change. And also, of course, women also,
yeah, it's necessary that they also want to stay in the sector
because if, you know, we have a quite dynamic work and sometimes
it can require quite some time to, to carry out our work.
So it's also you, you have to be able to manage that during your
week. And it's the same for men, but
maybe also in some families there are still some like more
traditional structures or you know, so I think there's,
there's also more, yeah, the, the job is not very easy just to
to leave at 5:00 and then do that every day.
And, and, and that's it. You know, it's also quite
demanding job. Yeah, yeah.
Because yeah, we, we yesterday we had a WhatsApp conversation,
I think at 11 in the evening. I'd I hope that that doesn't
represent your standard working hours, but.
No. And I'm, I'm, yeah, I also like
it a lot, you know, because yeah, I'm thinking a lot about
my work, but it also gives me a lot of energy.
So I still have the time for that right now.
Is that also one of the sites of the work that you actually
there's a lot of analytical skills involved.
I think that that you can actually, I mean, there's always
time to to think I would would believe.
Where am I wrong there? No, of course, yeah, that's
true. And, and it's also you learn
something about new markets every day because the one day
you're working on company that's active in farming and then the
other day you're looking at a company that's active in AI.
So totally not related, you know, so that's something that I
actually find really interesting that you learn something every
day. But like I mentioned before,
it's also, it's also very important in a sector to network
a lot. And there are many, many
networking events like especially in these months that
can be 1 every day. And these networking events are
always in the evening, you know, at these side events or yeah, or
drinks or gatherings. They're, they're often in the
evening. So yeah, it's it requires a lot
of flexibility. Yeah.
And just for context of the listeners, we're recording this
at at the beginning of July, sorry.
And and June and July are really busy at least in the Netherlands
with networking events, I think internationally even.
So just before the summer starts and then you get a dip in August
and then in September through November, you get a lot more.
And, and to your point, you have really you need to be flexible,
be able to, to be flexible. So Erica, I was wondering about
one thing. Yeah, we talked about education
and, and that it's possibly also part, part of the cause is that
there's an issue with budgets. So how do you educate yourself?
How do you keep up to standard with the information about
sector besides from reading the newspaper?
Well, I don't, I don't know. Do you need newspaper or
websites or what? Yes.
Well, certainly you also need so, so you have indeed maybe
just to get the that get that clear.
So you have one education more on the kind of personal
development and of course you have education on just diving
into specific sectors or specific propositions.
And that is I think just well inherent to or or that's just
your job. So you really need to dive into
when you see a certain startup that you really like, you'll
just need to know every nitty gritty of the market.
And so that that is something that you'll, you'll actually
learn either well, both through kind of desk research, but also
talking to people, reference calls, talking to industry
experts or people in your network.
So that's where this network is also very important for.
And then on the, so more on the educational side, if you want to
learn more about well, how you, you do well, how, how do you
actually negotiate a term sheets?
So what are the kind of important terms that you need to
be aware of? And, and so, so that's or, or
for example, on valuations, how do I evaluate a company, but
also on personal skills, indeed, how, how do I perform in a
board? Those are, I think the ones that
do need well, either trainings or mentorships or through well
coaching. And that is something that we
really try to do also with the women in VC is to, to really
bring that knowledge and network in order to kind of well propel
your, your, your, your skills and, and your knowledge and, and
development. Is that your career?
Yeah, exactly. And, and in the end that will,
will, will it, it will help you in, in just your promotions also
in, in within your fund or outside.
And I think that's super important.
And maybe to my point where I was saying so there's too little
budget. I think I'm I'm mostly talking
about just kind of the, the classical VC funds.
There are of course many other types of funds or investor types
which may have budgets. For example, VP capital where I
work, there is actually a big training budget, but that's a
family office. So it's it has a different
structure. So, so it really depends.
Overall you see that the kind of classical VC funds have very
little budget there. And maybe, yeah, to the point
and maybe we'll we'll be discussing that a little bit
later as well. But I think on, on education,
one of the things that we we've set up last year was a newly
venture program, which is a program that is actually meant
well for female investors with work experience of above 5
years. But it's, it's both meant for
women that actually just entered the CC industry as well as
people that are already more seniors or also on partner
level, because we believe that you can learn a lot from each
other. And that program is in the end,
it, it consists of several workshops where you'll just be
talking, discussing on specific topics like fundraising,
negotiations, and then you'll have intervision sessions where
you'll just be talking with other, well, smaller groups, but
people like minded people that you want to present your
specific challenges that you face too.
And, and they'll, they'll can actually provide feedback.
And I think that's through these.
I'm just talking, this is an example of, of a program that we
set up. But I think it, those are super
important in order to, to really equip the female investors in
one, broaden their network, finding just people that you can
really trust and, and will discuss and be very open to
things that that will, that will challenges or problems that you
face. But also, well, it's, it's in
the end also just the education that we want to provide.
Yeah, it's a sort of education session meets mastermind meets
networking. Yeah, exactly.
It's a bit of a mix of those opponents.
Yeah, because it also to, if I hear you correctly, it also sort
of creates opportunities for the for the coaching and mentorship
part, because you have, let's say, different people operating
in different levels of of AVC organization.
And I think also for smaller VC funds for women working there.
It also provides an opportunity then to touch base on things
that they run into on a daily basis.
And yeah, if you're alone, you're alone.
Certainly so I think there you do we actually well, this was a
kind of a first cohort where there were now doing this for a
second one. But I, I think the feedback that
you get also from the the kind of higher levels is that there
is a huge need for just for discussions on everyone has in
their work challenges that you'll be facing.
And I think just the strength of just being able to in, in a very
kind of secure and, and trust environment to be able to share
these challenges and, and thoughts that you're having is
just super powerful. I think in the end it, it, it
also is something that you that men will appreciate as well.
But I think it is in the end, the women that we want to
support here in particular because they're a minority.
Yeah. And I think it's it's also a
beautiful way to at least create an ecosystem with a safe space.
Yes, exactly. And you're sort of in the
process creating this this pipeline because do you then
also see people transfer from 1 VC to the other as a result?
I haven't seen it directly from the New Leaf program yet, but
I'm sure there will be because there is often transitions to
other funds as well. I think it's in the end we do
see that happen. I mean overall the PC industry
is a pretty small market in the Netherlands.
Every well people know each other or or well get to know
each other quite, quite fast, particularly through these types
of networks like the the women in VC.
But so that that definitely enhances or facilitates those
transitions as well. Yeah, and I, I.
Think sounds. You mentioned something here
that's actually also quite important because what happens a
lot in VC is that vacancies are not even coming online.
So you also get jobs just because, you know, people.
And yeah, therefore it's also super important to network.
Maybe we can, as fans, we can also do something differently
here to really share a vacancy because that's actually very
important for for people to open up the space a little bit.
But yeah, I think that's also what's what helps a lot is if
you increase your network, you will also better know like where
our positions open and and yeah, you get these chances.
Yeah, A, you get, you hear about them, and B you're, you get on,
as I call them, scouting lists. Yeah.
Because most, most employers and I don't think from what I hear
VCs are the exception there have a sort of list of people, hey,
if we have an open position here, we want to ask the this,
these are the top 3 outside candidates.
Let's say you need to be on that on those lists as well.
So maybe a good time also to, to switch to, to women in VC as a
community. We talked about the new leaf
program it's in. It's it's coming up to its
second cohort. What I heard both of you say is
that there's a lot of networking, a lot of education
going on. What else do you offer as a
community to female investors? I can tell a little bit more
about it and please add on mouth, but I think with with
indeed there there's educational training is is a very important
one. Network is an important one.
Indeed the well the new leaf program.
What we actually, I think I do have to mention that because it
is actually also makes it even more powerful is that we Co
organise that with NVP and level 20.
So those are well it makes it very kind of powerful because
they'll bring a lot of input as well on the the educational side
and and then the exposure to a bigger network.
But other than that, we have a gallery, which is all the female
investors have registered their with their funds and the types
of the focus that they have on the types of investments and
founders actually have female founders have access to that
gallery. So that it, it helps a lot in
just bringing the female founders a bigger network of the
right type of investors that they're looking for.
So it it's so it's enabling them And well, MO MOT had actually
did, did a lot of work on that. I think on one hand, it's just
super cool to see that the female investors are actually
giving access to their, their, their kind of focus.
And, and because that is not very uncommon thing that people
are so open about what they, what they do, what they, what
they're looking for, because they are also afraid that
they'll just be bombed by founders that are looking for
capital. But here there's actually a lot
of openness in order to make sure that we actually reach
those female founders as well. Yeah.
What I really like about that is that it also makes the whole due
diligence part for the founders a lot easier because usually one
of the these, that's what I hear a lot is that it's so difficult
to find the right investor because you need to be in the
right vertical, the right stage, the right ticket size.
And if you have, I think it was an air table or another at least
sort of dashboard thing where you can see, OK, hey, I need to,
I can skip these people off the list and I need to really focus
on, on these people. It makes your your funding
efforts a lot easier. Yeah, yeah.
And we see that that in particular for female founders,
one of the reasons why they will have more difficulty in, in
finding capital, attracting capital is because they don't
always have that network. And therefore this isn't a way,
a tool to enable them and, and, and well, also giving them that
exposure. So that is an important one.
Maybe one other I would like to add is that we're, we're
actually actively looking for a lot of partnerships as well with
other types of organizations. Like for example, there were,
there was an event organized by Femstart where we Co organized
Femstart is actually organizing pitch competitions for female
founders. And they also provide the well
education on the, the pitch pitches itself or how to hold a
company. And I think those are also super
important to have in our ecosystem.
And, and we're very much looking for these type of of
partnerships as well, Although we do want to, I mean our main
focus is really to get more female investors in the industry
and really retain them also in the industry.
Yeah, so I'm out. You want to chime in?
Yeah. So, so I think indeed what
Erica's saying is, is we've we've recently had a strategy
session on logic. OK, what are we going to do?
Because the funding gap is a real big issue.
Is it something that we can solve?
Well, we, we do this, we are in a board with four people.
So Erica, VP Capital, Sophie Heimbach had no such ventures
and lots of it like at Gapya Ventures and me from Golden
Golden Neck check. But so we, we all do it besides
our job, right. So, but but we really want to do
something about it. And this was basically for us a
way to say, OK, we are focusing on one part of the problem,
which is that there's a lack of women investors in decision
making positions, but we want to do something about it.
And that's basically opening up our network to FEMA founders.
So indeed the database can be used as a first filter on like
which funds are there, which, which funds fit your strategy?
We hope that's helping. And I also sometimes get asked
questions from founders like, hey, do you know a fund that's
good that suit my company. So then, yeah, of course I can
try to make introductions for you with the investors.
And yeah. And indeed, the partnerships
will also help us to reach more female founders and to open up
our network even more. So yeah, I'm really, really
happy we we were able to do that.
Yeah. And on on the on the partnering
side, I think there's also a list of what I would call
service providers. So people who can do marketing,
who can do accounting, etcetera. I mean, can you tell a bit more
about that? Yeah.
So we since January, we restructured the community.
So right now we have basically have three groups, one for
investors only, one for investors and founders, and one
for investors and service providers.
So often PCs are looking for services to help their portfolio
companies. And in this WhatsApp group, we
often see that PCs are, for example, asking like, hey, I'm
looking for a fractional CFO for a company in My Portfolio.
Anyone in this group that could help me?
So yeah, indeed, we, we try to, yeah, keep, keep those
connections also close to us. And we also use it sometimes for
them workshops that we give. So outside of the newly venture
program, we also give workshops just for any member.
And if we want to do a session on scaling, for example, we can
ask in the service provider group if, if someone wants to
give a workshop on scaling. So yeah, it's very helpful.
OK cool. And if there's someone who is
who can do workshops on biases, then probably you also ask that
question. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Yeah, yeah. So to give an example, we also
worked with Ian who's on session on on term sheets, for example.
But indeed, I'm, I'm still looking at a service provider
that could help me on a session on investment biases.
So if there's anyone, then they reach out to me.
That's a nice little bridge to the back to the biases because
there's one thing that struck me.
I think you said it mouth that when you've always done things
like you've done things, you will continue to do that.
Also you need, you will keep looking for the same things.
So that's yeah, a pattern matching, I think, or
confirmation bias. How do you how can we break that
a bit? Besides adding more women, what
else can we do? Yeah, that's very difficult
actually to to change that I think.
Yeah, good question. What?
What role can what role can more women play there?
Well, I think I think for example, what women can do
indeed is, and that's also what we discussed internally with
with our members during International Women's Day.
We had a really nice breakfast and we had a discussion on this,
like what can we do to find more women and support them better
during their founder journey? And one of the things that we
discussed there is also like if, if we, if you reject the
proposition, for example, from a female founder, also try to
really give them honest feedback.
And yeah, sometimes, like we always try to give honest
feedback, of course, but sometimes, yeah, it just doesn't
fit. Or you know, it's, it's a bit,
yeah, you just want to keep it short.
But what I'm trying to do as investor is also to really take
time then and, and explain them why it doesn't fit for us at the
moment or if I think they're investor ready at all.
And I really try to also put some time in in consulting
people on this and how they should approach reaching
investors or what they can do or if they're investor ready.
So I really try to share the knowledge that I have in a
network that I have with people and more, I think even more if
they're women founders, yeah. Yeah, I think also indeed
sharing your, your network, I think that the women that are
there, I think, well, one, it's of course important to create
that mass of more female investors at the investor table.
I think super important. But other than that, I think
it's indeed the, the women that are already there share as much
network that you are, you're having, but also try to coach
other, other women in your in your network or in, in this
industry to really create that kind of ripple effect.
I think it's, it's super important that we all are, are
open to kind of help each other out instead of competing with
each other. Not, I'm not saying that that is
the case, but I think it is we, we should be very collaborative
and I think and overall women have that in them.
So, but let's do that more actively.
Let's let's make sure that we'll all yeah, help each other and,
and also trying to be visible in this industry just to because I
think also talking, for example, about role models.
I think it is in the end, I think we, we, we maybe sometimes
have that definition of role model in our minds that you have
to be like a celebrity or something, but that's not the
case. I think a role role model is in
the end, just something that you have that inspires others and,
and everybody can be a role model.
I think there's also not as a person myself, I, I don't have
one role model, but I just take different pieces of different
people around me, which I really appreciate and, and think I
would like to well, kind of add to my skills or to my way of
doing so. What I'm saying is that role
model models are important, but I think everybody should be
aware that they actually are a role model, probably a role
model to someone else as well. Yeah, Yeah.
I think that's really powerful to say that really there's
always, because I also have this, as I call it, pick and
choose approach where I look at sometimes people can do things
one thing really well and rest maybe well, they're they're at
the standard level, which is quite OK, But I always try to,
to really lead to focus on what people do well and then what can
I learn from them? And if you, I agree with you,
Erica, that if you changed your approach of learning and looking
at role models at that makes it makes the pool bigger and also
makes it easier to let's the rest go.
It's also because many people have sort of fall in the trap,
Like if you have to be a role model, then you have to be
perfect all around. Like you almost have to be gold.
And this this sort of avoids that trap I would say.
Yeah. And I think as a founder, I
mean, like if you start a business, you're, you come in a
bubble of people that also found these companies and it maybe
have more ARR like annual recurring revenue already.
And they're, they have a very successful business that perhaps
there are many people that are still in their corporate life,
they've thought about like setting up a business that they
like didn't have the, the well chance or, or not or whatever
to, to start it. And yeah, if you are a founder,
you did, you know, you, you give up a lot actually to build your
business because you believe in in your vision and anything that
you're building. And that's already super
inspiring. I think any founder can be and
any person indeed can be a role model.
And yeah, sometimes it seems like I said that if you're in a
bubble of founders that maybe you're not doing well, but
actually you've already come so far by starting your own
business, you know? So it's really worth it also to
share that with people and, and go on stage and tell your story
on how you did that because you you actually might inspire many
people to do the same. Yeah, I think that's really
often underestimated power you have by by starting and and also
as an investor I would think because that's a question I
still had. Can you also be an investor,
maybe on an Angel level if you're still working a corporate
job? Yeah, definitely.
Yeah. There are Angel initiatives
where you can actually, yeah, put in small amounts of money
and you don't have to be a rich person or an Exodus founder to
become A to become a business Angel.
So I think to communities that are good, like if you're
interested that to become an Angel founder that are very good
in this is for example, the Angel initiative or there's a
new initiative now it's called adventure.
Those are really yeah, good, good initiatives to to start
Angel investing. Yeah, sorry that they even also
touch on another thing that's very important and that's also
personal wealth. So, you know, as as female
Angel, for example, if you can invest your money this way, it's
also, yeah, it's helping other founders, but also your own
personal wealth. Yeah, if you do it right, yeah.
But that's probably, probably, yeah.
That's always a thing that we have to keep in mind.
You don't. You do this with money you can
miss, and you do this probably start with companies where you
at least have a bit of a feel of what they do that you at least
understand what's the risk you take.
Yeah, and there are education programs as well.
OK. To learn how to educate the the,
the that bottom of the pipeline, I would say.
The Angel, if that's. You mean yeah.
Well, Angel, it's just more in our community, but we like
they're, they're welcome to join our sessions, of course.
But it is I think we mostly focus on on women in venture
capital. And there are also other
platforms that focus on solely Angel investors.
But Angel investors are welcome to our community, but we don't
have specific workshops on Angel investing.
No, OK, clear. So I want to move a bit towards
the end of this session. You talked about having a
strategy session. What are the plans for the
future? There's the second cohort of New
Leaf coming out. What else?
Yeah. I think with New Leaf, we've
seen that because, because there's also many senior women
joining this program and we've seen that they also like to have
like sparing partners to to share experiences with.
So I think what we will do internally is also see how we
can restructure it even more and yeah, create smaller groups
because right now we have a community of 180 female
investors. So it's becoming quite big.
And sometimes that also makes it that you feel more anonymous.
So we're currently thinking on how we could, yeah, structure
the the community better to also, yeah, connects people a
bit more on, on a deeper level. So we're going to work on this
during the summer and yeah, hopefully after summer we can,
yeah, we can kick it off. OK, cool.
Yeah. And also I think what's also
nice in New Leaf program is that you see we, we connect also more
senior people with, with people with at least five years of
working experience. So there's also, I think we, we
also hope that there's like for example, mentor duos rising from
this, you know, if you have a question on building your own
fund or yeah, whatever that, you know, who to call and that yeah,
people can help each other out. So I think that's going to be
our main thing to connect our community even more.
OK. So building connections and
educating people, Yeah, that's there.
That's the two focus points. Yeah.
And I think maybe to add 1 is what we also are are thinking of
because you, you do have other women in CC communities also
outside of the Netherlands. So really try to see if we can
join forces there as well. So there is one pan European,
one unlucked sea and also trying to see if there are good
collaborations with these networks to actually make it
also international. Because in the end also for
your, your, the start-ups that you're investing in that want to
internationalize or want to raise another fund outside of
the Netherlands, it's actually, well, a big strength to have
that network outside our borders as well.
Yeah, I was about to say Dutch market is is the Dutch market.
It's not particularly big. No, no, no, no.
We do realize that there is a rule outside.
So let's say we're about 10 years from now and there's how
many percent of work positions are then filled by women.
So investor on the investors on the VC side.
Do you want to have our the the dream answer or the realistic
answer? No, the dream answer the.
Dream answer. Well, in that case, I would
actually, I really would like to push that in the end, the board
and just I think in general in the PC industry, it is more of a
reflection of society. So it's not only women and men,
of course, but just overall diversity.
Well, as you said, the figures, the numbers are real, that
they're there. Diversity is in the end well
brings the best performance and and is is in the in the end the
the answer. So if I have to give my dream
answer, I would say that the board would look exactly as a
reflection of society, meaning that there is half female, Half
Men, but also other types of diversity in the board.
And that will really in the end bring the kind of balanced
decisions in the companies and and well you see them building
also for customers that are more diverse and not only surfing one
type of customer base. Yeah, I think same.
I think the reflection of society is very important and
we're now focusing on gender, but there's there's more ways of
diversity that we should indeed focus on to to make the results
even better. What can men do?
So because if we want to move to a more 5050 base of women in
decision taking positions, how can men facilitate this?
Yeah, I, I think it's important to be aware that you have your
own bubble network. So it's important to also try
and, and look at other networks outside of your own bubble.
Maybe ask different questions to to founders because women tend
to be more or that's that's always what I read like women
tend to be more risk averse. But actually I always see only
like very well motivated propositions of women.
They exactly know where their money goes.
They have everything well thought true actually.
So I yeah, I'm always like risk. Like by only building your
company, you already take a lot of risks.
So yeah. And actually the risk aversity
it's. Actually.
They are aware of all the risks that are in the business and
they actually have a plan on how to mitigate them.
So I'm I'm only enthusiastic about this.
Yeah, I, I think women are more risk prepared than men.
I don't think they're necessarily they're better.
It's it's a myth that women are more risk averse.
They're not. They need, they want more
information and they want, they are usually better prepared,
which actually from my own experience makes them better
risk managers. So that's why you see in
especially in risk management positions in, in large finance
financial companies, actually the the split man where woman
is, I would not say 5050, but at least close to it.
Yeah. And I think another thing that
that men maybe could do is also try to see if you can create an
unbiased evaluation tool if if you're evaluating companies and
it shouldn't actually matter if there's a man or a woman or a
woman in front of you. Yeah.
And be aware of this and see how you can actually diversify your
funnel and your and the way that you look at companies.
Yeah. Would opening up the networks
also help? Because I I think it's, it's a
small network, everyone knows each other.
But if the the moment you start sharing deals with women with
women feces. Yeah, No, I think super, super
important also just opening indeed.
Well, I think from, from our end, I think it's in the end
also a goal I think just to integrate our network more with
the mill network. It's not like we're want to
build a kind of container network that is just interacting
completely separately from, from men.
I, I think that's not where you where we should go to.
But I, I think indeed also on the, for example, with events,
you always go to the same events and then you actually, it, it
helps so much better if if you just look around and see, OK,
but what, what is actually, what are other events I would
normally typically not go to. Let's let's attend those and see
if I can actually broaden also my source of of leads by doing
that. Yeah, or, or if you're
organizing an event, see who are who are your Co organizers.
I had a funny example of this because I went to a side event
and and it was organized by only men.
And in the first few hours there were only men present and I was
well, one of the few women. Luckily later on there came a
few women more. But then the other day I, I had
another event that was organized by a very diverse team.
And actually there the crowd was also very diverse.
So I think also in organizing stuff and teaming up with other
VC funds, because men and women in VC can find each other really
well. Also make sure, yeah, if you
could organize something that the team that's organizing it is
also diverse because then you would also attract more diverse
network. So I think that's that's a very
quick win. Yeah, with a with a huge ripple
effect. Exactly.
Yeah, yeah. And it also, it also counts for
us, right. So as women in TC, I think it
would also indeed, like Erica said, would also be good to,
yeah, try to see how we can diverse it, diversify with the
meal networks as well and organize something together.
We're not there. We haven't done it so far, but
but of course, we're also open to this.
So yeah, I think that's very important.
Cool. Let's close it there.
Yeah, out for Mary, Erica for Nathan.
Thank you very much for this wonderful conversation.
Question I always ask at the end is where people can learn more
about you, where they can connect with you, and where they
can find out more information about women in VCNL.
Yes. Well, you can find more
information about women in VCNL at LinkedIn.
So we have our LinkedIn website. We of course are.
We have our WhatsApp groups. So if you want to you're, you're
not member yet and you're an investor or a founder or service
provider, please reach out to us personally and we can make sure
to include you. And we can also, of course, add
you to the gallery as a, as an investor.
And for the New Leaf program, well, currently where the
selection has taken place. So for this year it will not be
open, but it will for next year. We're happy to onboard new
people on on the programme. Yeah, to have people on the
waiting list already. Exactly.
Cool, and people can connect with you Erica via LinkedIn as
well as Oppose. Yes, definitely can always reach
out. Cool.
Mao Sing for me. Yeah, on LinkedIn.
OK, cool. We'll include those links in the
show notes. So once again, thanks very much
for the amazing conversation. Really insightful, this nurse.
Thank you very much for listening and until the next
episode, keep being awesome. Well, that's it for episode 119
of Women Disrupting Tech with Erika Vonageen and Out for
Merlin, titled How women in VCNL close the Funding gap.
Erica Maout. And I hope that you found our
conversation as inspiring as we intended it to be.
And if you have any questions for Erica or Maout, please leave
them in the comments on Spotify, Apple, or YouTube.
I'll make sure you receive an answer.
When you want to connect with Erica or Maut or learn more
about women in VCNL, please check out the links in the show
notes. As usual, you can find the show
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And until then, as always, keep being awesome.