We just need to stop treating inclusive leadership as a soft
skill. It should be a requirement.
Don't reward. Leaders will get results if they
do it at at the cost of psychological safety, equal pay,
or their first team. I personally think inclusion
needs to be part of performance reviews.
Why should we be looking who gets promoted, who's staying,
who's burning out? And we need to have the guts to
say, if you're not helping others grow, you don't grow here
either. Welcome to Women Disrupting
Tech. My name is Tierra Keanukas and
on this podcast I give the women who work in tech the platform
they need to inspire and empower each other.
Join me on a journey into the world of entrepreneurship,
funding biases, and role models to discover the strategies for
success in the tech industry. In other words, how women can
disrupt tech. Are you ready to listen?
Hey, thanks for tuning into episode 111 of Women Disrupting
Tech. Today's guest knows what it
means to be seen, but not always believed.
She knows what it costs to constantly filter her words,
scan the room, and play it safe. And she knows what happens when
we treat inclusion like a side project instead of a leadership
skill. Emily von Putten is a
cybersecurity expert with almost 2 decades of experience in tech.
She's also the Co founder of She Unfolds Foundation that creates
space for women in tech to connect, recharge, and feel like
they truly belong. And Emily is a transgender
woman, which means that she has experienced the tech world from
both sides of the gender divide. She's here to talk about what
that told her about bias, visibility, and the power of
showing up as her full self. In this episode, we also talk
about the real reason that women leave tech, why inclusion has to
be tied to power and pay, and how social media creates what
Emily calls the digital closet. This is one of the most open and
personal conversations that I've had on women disrupting tech,
and it's a reminder that belonging isn't just a buzzword,
it's the thing that makes growth possible.
So when you're ready to listen and learn, how she unfolds
creates the space where women in tech belong.
Please welcome to women disrupting tech, Emily
Fumputten. Hey Emily from Putin, good
morning. Good to have you on women
disrupting tech. Question I always ask at the
start is how you got into your current position and for you
that's founder of Co founder of Shear and faults.
Yeah, it's a it's a long story, I feel I've been in tech for
almost 2 decades right now. Yeah, when specifically talking
about shear and faults, it's a new foundation in which we try
to basically connect women working in our indie industry,
ID IT industry that are in some ways the only women in their
teams or organisations. And a couple of months ago we
had this women in NIT HALA organised.
And after this HALA, we just noticed this shouldn't be a one
thing a year event. So together with my partner
Megan, we found that she enforced and we know, yeah,
basically working to to build this out besides the my current
role as a cybersecurity expert in the industry.
OK, that's cool. So how how did you because you
started with the Dutch women in IT gala before that.
I think that's also related to Femco Cornelison.
Previous Guest So how did you become an advocate for women in
tech? That's an interesting story
because I've been, as I said, long in this industry during my
transition, my gender transition, I notice that there
is so that the culture within the, the sector is real
masculine and it's not inclusive for most women.
And if you look at the numbers, they're yeah, troubling because
you see that 52% of women are leaving the IT industry in the
1st 10 years of their career compared to 70% of men.
So I really want to help women working in the industry to, to
stay there, to help them within their journeys from an expertise
perspective, but also by connecting them to other women.
And I noticed myself that people are looking differently at you
because of your gender. And that is what hurts me hard
because I think we need to create an A culture, the ad in
which everyone, the ad, regardless of the boxes you're
checking is in, included. Yeah, so talk to me about why,
why women leave, because 52% leaving in the 1st 10 years is
like really staggering. Why is that happening?
There's a masculine culture. What happens as a result?
Yeah, what happens is result, but we have a lot of focus
details on getting more women within IT.
But from my perspective, not that much on retaining them or
not as much as needed. I think the the culture us out
there are working a lot of men in the industry.
It's about 80% there isn't. Yeah.
The the, the, the, the, the, the, the personal view of the OR
how people work together is really.
And also it's in the IT industry.
It's about making results. It's about, yeah, you need to be
decisive and it's not in most cases not appreciated if you're
don't know right right away. And women have a different kind
of way of working together and it it just doesn't fit in many
cases within the IT industry as it is currently.
And, and if you are the only woman within a team or perhaps
the the whole organization and you don't have any role models
in the organization that show you that you belong there and
that you can be successful in this role.
So yeah, there's a lot of work to do to get more women, retain
them and also allow them to grow in their in their roles.
Because it's not only about junior media ish roles, but in
the end also about leadership as a women within this within a
technical role can see that you are also capable of ultimately
growing into such a leadership role for example.
Yeah, really reaching, reaching the top level of an
organization. Yeah.
It's really, really important. Yeah.
So, So what goes wrong in terms of retention then?
Because we, we do a lot in terms of getting women into IT.
What, what goes wrong in the retention part of it?
There's role models, as you said.
Yeah, there, there there is role models.
There is not much attention of the, the, the, the individual
needs of, of women in general, a form and health perspective
perhaps, or also about creating moments like you have in in most
orientations, you have the ordinary from evil.
The, the, the, the drink Friday and the Friday drinks.
Yeah. And in some cases you'll also
need to have a conversation with the people.
So not thinking for them, but getting in touch with the people
having trouble staying in the organization and and listening
to their needs. What do they need?
And it's also about IT, most of the people work there full time.
So 40 hours a week. Well, if you look at the the
statistics in the Netherlands, you see that women, most of them
are not working for a full time. So when you leave out this
group, they're not fitting to the role descriptions you have
because you need people or 40 hours a week.
Those people, this talent pool is already left out.
While there is they're capable of so much.
And I have real often conversations about is it's
really necessary to have all those rules 40 hours a week or
can they be fulfilled with less hours.
And I think that is really a mirror that organizations need
to look into in order to leverage this enormous group of
people that have great expertise but are left out just because
they're not working 40 hours a week.
Yeah, and and to your point of being left out often day, day
after Friday off, Yeah. So then no Friday drinks.
No Friday drinks and you and. Also they there's a Friday
drinks. I had an interview with a guest,
I think early, early May and she said well, why it's it's nice of
the employers to pick up the the the drinks tap, but why don't
they pick up the the childcare tap then?
Yeah. That's also part of the
facilitation thing because to your, to your point, I think
it's also important in terms of hearing and making people
belong. Is that you they you actually
help them attend company events? Yeah, and if you are missing
those, those moments for gathering within your
organization, yeah, you can feel alone.
And why, why staying there if you don't feel connected to your
Co workers? And there are so many examples
of unpaid labour. Well, in unfortunately in, in,
in the current societal situation, women are mostly
taken care of. Yeah.
Perhaps we as as an organization, as an employer can
have a look at all those tasks that women are taking on and see
how we can help them to make it more attractive to start
working, especially in IT. And if you look at other
industries like healthcare, there are great examples of how
you can do this. And also if you look at how
Scandinavian countries are are doing this as more as an equal
situation between what men, women, instead of, yeah, this
enormous gap we have in. OK.
So there's parties, role models part what I'm hearing you say,
it's also really having the conversation with women about
what they need. Last question on this topic, why
is that difficult for the current leadership to or for
men? Let me put it that way because I
think there's a sort of barrier there.
But what makes that a thing even?
Yeah, I think especially when you look at platforms like
LinkedIn and if you see the the the conversations around these
kinds of topics, you see that men are not real present there.
And I had conversations a while back with several people and
management guys and men in these cases and they see these these
challenges as complaining and they are not experiencing
problems and challenges themselves.
So there is no problem in their opinion.
Well, there is, but. What is that then?
Is that a lack of empathy or? I think yeah, traditional
leadership, when you look at most organizations, it's just
directive like we have always done.
Well, when you look at inclusive leadership, you'll, there's a
humble role. You need to have this
conversation with the people to understand and to listen to them
without bias. And I think that there is an
enormous potential of growth for these kind of leaderships and
luckily the younger generation is aware of that and is more
focused on that way of leadership, but.
Yeah, I was about to ask, is that a sort of problem that is
sort of going away over time because younger generation is
indeed more aware that we need to change this narrative?
Yeah, I yes, it will eventually when people will retire.
But these days when people for leadership and management roles
are hybrids, we always are looking for the best candidate.
But the best candidate, in my opinion, is the the person that
in most cases is identical to your personality instead of on
paper is real, contributing with diverse perspectives and
etcetera. Yeah, yeah, like attracts like.
Absolutely. Hey, I want to switch a bit to
back to to belonging and also to leadership because we talked
about belonging for a minute when we talked about events and
really being part of the, let's say of the of the team.
What makes this topic important to you personally?
For me, balloon is when I can just be without overthinking.
I feel a little more of not having to scan the room or just
my tongue to make sure I don't come across as too much.
Most of my life was about fitting in, adapting, playing it
safe and belonging kinds of flips that It tells you you
don't have to shapeshift to be accepted or allowed to take up
space. And honestly, that's not just a
nice feeling, it's the thing that makes it possible for me,
but also others to grow because you can thrive when you're
constantly trying to survive. Yeah.
So this maybe let's double click a bit on on playing a role then
what can you describe what it meant for you to be in a
position to? Yeah, to have to have to scan a
room to see if there were any allies with you, to see if there
were any people who could be post potentially hostile.
What is that like? And it really started change
happening when people within my organization, I was working back
then were aware of my situation and as transgender women.
And this is hard because it's real for me.
It's a real obstacle. You're far away from your your
individuals. You're hyper visible and on the
other hand everyone is noticing, everyone is judging.
You can see it in their eyes without them telling you they
are. And that is hard because you
want to fit in. You want to not be the they're
on your own. But on the other hand, you, you
want to go through with your personal journey.
And it's really important for me, if you look at my mental
history of a couple of years ago.
And that is troubling sometimes because I, I made the choice to
inform people as much as I can just I, I can start a new job, I
can move for a living to another location, but in the end, I want
to be in this world, real world and not gathering with other
trans people. And I think in the end that
helps because you're by being more vulnerable, open on these
topics that most people are not familiar and talking about.
I think this opens another layer of connection with the people
around you. Yes, probably you will lose
people on your journey when you choose yourself and it's not
the, the, the role people expect, expecting from you.
You will lose people that don't feel connected to you anymore.
And I think in the end that's hard, but it's also fine because
the people that stay or are connecting with you actively are
the people that see you instead of the role you're playing.
Yeah. So what does that do do to your
energy levels if you have to enter a room and scan?
It's, it's real intense because on one hand you have your
personal journey that is already so overwhelming with all the,
the mental support and medical staff, all the, the, the
appointments with, with therapists and it's, it's real.
It's almost ridiculous. And that is not just all because
on you have also your your career people that I just was
talking about people judging you and it has some mental impact on
you. And then you're also talking
about all the the impacts that the medical starting with
hormones has real impact on your body in in it's it's real for
realming and balancing all these challenges together.
It's it's it's. It's already hard, but then if
people start judging you I can imagine it becomes even like a
double whammy. Yeah, and I try to explain to
some people that, yeah, I, I'm in my car driving to a certain
falling on the road, a journey. I'm, I'm, I'm on and on the back
seat there are so many people, people close to you, people a
bit farther away. And I need to really take care
of it, travelling, braking, steering, because if I do it, I
steer to to heart or I am throttling massively, then
people on the back sheet, I will lose them.
And while, and it's also challenging because not all
people are pointing the right head in the same direction.
Once the one wants you to to move left and the other one to
the right. And how are you going to
navigate all these opinions and all these expectations while
still being true to the journey you're on for yourself?
Yeah, How do you do that? How do you, how do you keep
focus on on yourself? Because I can, I, I won't say I
can imagine because I can't. I'll be honest, all the all
those voices, all those influences from the back seat of
the car and you have to keep your own car on the A on the
road and B on course to where you want to go.
How do how do you do you have any things you do?
You talked about therapy. But it's real complex.
When I started, I wanted to just full throttle and go to the to
the point where I wanted to be. But then I start noticing that
the people around me that are really close to me and it's just
too fast because it has an enormous impact on them.
They are losing someone in in a certain way.
I'm warning that the person that is transitioning more or less.
And so we had so much conversations privately about
things I wanted to do but the the people around me were not
ready for. How did she discover, besides
having those conversations, What, what did they say?
Yeah, sometimes it's it's the hard, the hard way that people
are are. Yeah, basically having this
conversation and seeing a real hard conversation, crying and
that sometimes you take I, I, I take a certain decision and then
I see and notice that it's too fast for the people real close
around me. So it's, as I said, it's that
sometimes the hard way and that opens my eyes hopefully.
And I think in the end it's resulted in that I am it's it's
the conversation allows you to allows me to travel while also
taking care of breaking. So if I am on full trouble and
the the people around me are on are breaking and break, yeah,
that is real hard. And you will lose those people.
And you need to adapt your personal life as well.
Because in some situations I cannot be that person and
provide the the things I used to provide.
Yeah. And you, yeah, need to take
certain decisions. How are you kind of balancing
and integrating new visions within your personal life, but
also your your corporate professional life?
Yeah. So I was wondering, yeah,
because you're transitioning from a man to a woman, have you
observed people behaving differently from from you seeing
you as a man versus seeing you as a woman?
Because. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
And before I transition, people rarely questions my expertise
that just I I assumed I knew what I was talking about.
But during my transition, I'm still in in it.
Certainly the exact same knowledge was met with doubts.
People started interrupting me, explaining things back to me,
things I built myself. In some cases, it's really yeah,
it's it's it's to laugh about. But yeah, at first I was, yeah.
And at first I was trying to adjust.
I tried something less emotional, more neutral, more
acceptable, I guess. But it made me feel smaller.
And honestly, it felt fake. And these days I refuse to lead.
I have from a filtered version of myself.
So now I speak up, not just for me, but to point out how much
gender still impacts who we trust and which voice we take
seriously. And it's not only about me, it's
about all voices in society. Because if we want real change,
we need to stop pretending this stuff isn't happening.
True. And and to your point, the
reason I was asking is I'm reading a book called The
Authority Gap which describes exactly this behaviour.
Also there I'm reading it. I'm actually now in a chapter
where the writer has interviewed a number of trans people, 1
going from men to transitioning from men to women and another
one back from women to men. And they describe exactly that
same thing that you just described.
Like for men you hardly ever get judged or challenged, and for
women all of a sudden you get interrupted and you get
questions and you get less. Yeah, But the interesting thing
about that topic is that men and women are having certain
challenges in society. For men, trying is not allowed
You you have to basically get rid of your emotions in a
certain way. And when I'm talking about these
topics that things are changing because of how people are
perceiving me, it's gets reactions and people are, oh,
this is really happening. But don't forget that CIS men
and CIS women are having the same issues during their whole
lives. It's nothing new.
But because I am talking about my last experience, it's it's
more credible in some way. And perhaps we should start
listening to the to the people, not just trans people, but
everyone, about the challenges they're experiencing and do
something with that instead of waiting to someone with more
dysphorous perspectives. Shows the the exact same thing.
Yeah, yeah, I think listening to each other is really important
to to get more empathy and understanding.
And also as a result, I think the culture within tech will
become more hospitable for outsiders for let's say the the
non Caucasian CIS guys with a university degree.
So yeah. Yeah.
And you're not just checking this one box.
We are all made of different aspects at the boxes.
We are always talking about that the combination of them.
Everyone has a unique combination which has its its
challenges and. Yeah.
And that that's, that's one of the things I think that is often
forgotten or overlooked, that everyone is unique.
Everyone has his own sort of operating manual.
And for some that is, for some people that's a bit longer, and
for some that needs to be rewritten.
And for some it's pretty straightforward.
And even if you can put two people in the exact same 20
boxes, for example, they still have their personal preferences.
So and then it's about, as we talked about listening, trying
to understand each other's needs.
OK. I want to switch back a bit to
to belonging and also to your own journey as a transgender
woman in tech because you're also going to talk about at
least about playing roles in October at TEDx.
Tell me a bit more. Tell us a bit more about that.
Yeah, that's very interesting because I've been, I've been
talking about a TEDx and I'm trying to create a relation
between my personal journey as playing roles that I've
experienced myself as we just talked about.
And on the other hand, we see that these days we have all
those apps like Instagram, Tech Talk, LinkedIn, yeah, call them
that are all basically you're rewarded based on algorithms.
So if you publish something and you'll get those likes, it's
been fueled. It's it's really resulting that
people will do add the DD things to get to these results again
and try to adapt their voice online to get more, more
rewarded because of those likes and feels, etcetera.
And ultimately that results in that you may be having an online
persona, which in fact is completely different than the
people behind the computer that is creating this content.
And and then it might be real hard for you to step up in real
life among people that see your content, while this online
identity of yours is not the people they're seeing in real
life. So, and when you look at the
numbers of, of younger people with, with, with anxiety, and
that's real troubling. And I wanted to make clear that
when I was in the closet for a longer period and this exact
same thing called the digital closet is happening online for
many people without noticing. And I think we should be more
aware on the image we're creating online of ourselves to
prevent, Yeah, stepping into this pitfall.
And it's interesting to say that when people create a selfie,
yes, for sure for a quick publishing, but they're not
they're not making just one selfie.
They're making 10 or way more and how authentic is this and
which filter to use etcetera. In this case, that's not
authentic anymore because you're still subject of all the in the
end algorithms and people online judging you in a certain way.
Yeah. How do we change that?
How do we change? I mean the algorithms are there,
the rewards are there and real and are felt because I also look
at OK, I'm starting to get off AI as as a help to to write my
copy. Yeah, I think I, I, I try to
explain to people that at first I think it's, it's the things
you can do for yourself. It's auditing your online
identity. Are you shaping your online
presence with intention or is it shaping you?
You can just open your last 5 lbs and what's off your shelf
are missing. And yeah, is this truly my first
or am I just playing a role? And on the other hand, try to
ignore algorithm. Algorithms strive on
predictability. They favor what comfortably fits
their malt. High performance doesn't
necessarily mean authenticity. So reflect.
Are your choices online driven by what you want to express or
by what the algorithm reverse? And the last one is just make
intentional choices. Stay aware of a thin line
between your curated persona basically, and your authentic
self. Make choices about what you can
share because it reflects you, not because it seeks validation.
Yeah, I think that's hard to do. That, yeah.
But also, I think be mindful of what you share in terms of, OK,
how does this add to my online persona and how does it move
away or actually keep me close to who I am?
Yeah. And just you just get ask
yourself this question, what is the smart change you can make
today to align your digital self closer to your real self?
Use technology intentionally to empower authenticity and not be
started. I want to double click on one
thing you just said because I found that really interesting.
High performance is not necessarily authentic, often the
same as authenticity. Right.
Isn't that the whole problem here?
That we don't associate high performance with being
authentic. Yeah, it is.
And in some cases authenticity can be high performance, but
it's real hard. And not that long ago, I shared
a real a post about my mental health site a couple of years
ago. And these are the topics we
normally not talk about online. It's not there.
And and yes, these, these, these topics are rewarded because
they're more authentic. And you can never say they're
100% authentic, but because it isn't in the end, it's always
published in a certain way to get read and notice.
But these days we're just publishing.
The most we're publishing is what we want the world to know
and see of you instead the instead of also showing that we
are not only having great days making research and the great
event after the other one, we are also having the hard days
the the days that we don't know. And if I can honestly say that I
don't know or that I am, I'm having mental health issues that
allow someone else that is suffering from the same
challenges on their own. And in most cases, they're just
having this on their own have perhaps are more capable of
sharing their chances as well. Last week was real.
I was at a conversation at an at Codem in Amsterdam in school for
an Ask Me Anything session. And it's real great.
And that was aimed at technology on one hand and gender on the
other hand. But in the end we, we delve into
mental health and I shared about my depression and about suicidal
periods. And at the end, there was this
one woman, she was in the corner of the room and I saw on her
face that's there was something going on.
She was real emotional, but she was on their own.
No one was going to her. So I walked to her and just
asked her, do you want to have a hug?
And this person felt into my arms, embraced me and like she
would never let me go. I was crying.
We stood there for a couple of minutes and then I real that's
real impact on me personally, because I noticed that this
person was going through this topic on their own and doesn't
feel the space to talk about it. Well, in the end, if if people
are in a situation they need to deal with this on their own, I
think it's less likely they're going to survive instead of when
the people around them to support them.
So I think it's it's we need to normalize healthy part of our
lives instead of just being this create online persona.
Yeah, and also again, listen. Listen once in every hour to
ask. Give, give.
Ask someone if she or he needs a hug.
Yeah, sometimes that's, that's OK.
And you don't have to say any words but disconnection between
people and I, I, I didn't know this lady before diving into the
session. And that also helps that someone
feels seen. So why is it important to you to
take this role to to be a role model?
Yeah, I think. Because you're, you're standing
in front of rooms. You're you're out in the open
about your, your transition, your Yeah.
I'm talking about several subjects also about women in AT
and my mental state and my transition and etcetera.
There are not that many people that dare to share these topics
as I do. And sometimes it's it's real
hard. It is.
And I'm not per SE doing this for my personal situation
because I'm already gone through many of the things I challenged
earlier. And I hope that in some way,
because of my loud and I think revelation voice, some people
see this and think, OK, I'm part of the things you're just
talking about. And perhaps I can contribute in
a way that I'm feeling comfortable with that has way
more impact on the people that are having these chances that it
has on me while while helping them.
And it's about feasibility in the end.
And I'm also in a certain way, it's also, it's hard to say
about yourself, but a role model for people that are not capable
or they're as as tough as. Me while still going through
these the same topics I did. Yeah.
Does it help you also in going through your own process?
Yeah, Yeah. Good question.
I think it's it, it, it does because there are so many topics
that people are absolutely not aware of that are really having
impact on me and many cases directly on the things I'm
involved with. So it helps me if people
understand better. That's where certain things
coming from why I'm it's not that's an issue right now
anymore, but why I was every week having appointments.
For example, if you are on working in an organization and
your Co worker is not there every week at a certain moment
you can have that. This can feed conversations.
Well those appointments may be legitimate.
It helps if people understand how things are so that you have
a real conversation instead of she was not in the office again
and it's not helping for the culture.
Is it also about, maybe I'm phrasing this wrong way, but is
it also about controlling your own narrative?
Than it is it is in a certain in a certain way because if people
understand better I probably have more space to navigate my
personal journey yeah it's a certain way it's it's it's
control of the narrative we just we in the beginning of this
conversation we talked about the the the industry as a whole and
the culture in there and I think it's not helping for many people
that are not checking this these boxes of of man Caucasian
etcetera yeah. If I hope to just contribute to
a change that hopefully is way bigger than I can imagine right
now. Yeah.
So how does, how does sheer unfold fit into this?
Because we talked about it earlier and if I understand
correctly, it's about creating events that are not necessarily
work work. So not cyber events for women,
not cyber or, or IT events for women, but really something
totally different like like the gala you organized.
Yeah, that's an interesting because a lot of what I do
actually come from things I wish I had myself to gather with
Megan. I already referenced I started
the women in Attihala last March and we organized this in 3 1/2
months and we were just tired. Tired of feeling lonely, tired
of being the only woman in the in the room.
And we didn't want another event with forced conversations,
rehearsed speeches, name tags, etcetera.
We just wanted to have this one night where where you could show
up and feel seen where nobody as you what do you do?
But instead, hey, how are you really not performing but just
connecting and that night happened and it was incredible.
Fallah sold out in no time and energy in the room was
absolutely amazing and also interesting to see that there
were women from all stage in their careers and junior
director and it was just generally connecting and from
that feeling. Basically she and fossils born
because we thought that one night isn't enough.
We need something lasting, which she and folks are creating more
of these moments. Special memorial getting that
you'll generally look forward to moments focused entirely on just
being together or feeling safe. Events that are both you don't
want to miss because they feel you're up and reminds you why
community matters. And yes, we have already a
plenty of technical communities and those are great, but
sometimes you just want to leave your expertise at the door.
Step into space where you can slow down, connect, and just be
yourself, not proofing yourself. Yeah, so actually creating to
safe space that women need to also be successful in in tech or
IT. Yeah, absolutely.
So. So let's double click on safe
spaces. What do you consider a safe
space? Like a place where you can be
yourself? But can you define that a bit
more? Yeah, it's interesting to say.
I think it's a space is about a room where you're can show up
100% as your true self. And this, it's easy to say, but
it's hard to realize. I think the way to create a safe
place just to sing out loud what everyone else is thinking with
no one dares to say. And that I think this applies to
several top semi full bits. And sometimes that feels a bit
uncomfortable. But usually if we're feeling
uncomfortable, we're hitting something in the end, right?
It's not about being provocative, it's just about
opening the door to real connections like we did with the
Hala, that you don't have to adapt and press or not back.
As I said, you can show up exactly as you are.
And we're trying to create these safe spaces.
And unfortunately for the men, it's it's also placed without
men because honestly, in these cases, there's a different
dynamic when women are together dynamic where all aspects of
being a woman can be there freely.
No filters, no adjusting, just real open and completely
yourself. Think that's what safe spaces
are mostly about. OK, so there's one thing that
makes me really curious because I'm do you do you see that merch
over time that men can start to enter that space?
Yeah, I, I, I think it will. Or perhaps we can create certain
moments where men are allowed. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. It's not because we want to keep
men deck, keep them out of that, but we want to create this
atmosphere of women connecting. That isn't possible on the
working floor. Well, it's we said that it's
real masculine and many women are struggling how to stay
authentic to who you are, while the culture is really asking you
to adapt and and everyone wants to be seen and fit in in the
end. So yes, perhaps you will at some
moment, but for now the main aim is to connect the women that are
working in the industry in a new bolt manner.
Cool. So let's say I'm forward
thinking leader and I really want to create that inclusive
atmosphere also on the work floor, not only by sending women
to there are separate events where they're separate rooms,
but really make it inclusive. What is one step I need to take?
What is the first step I need to take to to get there?
Yeah. So that's basically making
inclusion more normal. Yeah, yeah.
I think if you want inclusion in tactile, we are more focused on
all the people. We have to stop outsourcing the
problem in the end to the people who are already
underrepresented. It's time to shift the weights.
And for me, I think the bold move in this case is tie
inclusive outcomes to power and pay.
We just need to stop treating inclusive leadership as soft
skill. It should be a requirement.
Those reward leaders will get results if they do it at at the
cost of psychological safety, equal pay or diverse team.
And definitely don't promote who can build inclusive cultures no
matter how strategic or technical they are.
I personally think inclusion needs to be part of performance
reviews. Why should we be looking who
gets promoted, who's staying, who's burning out?
And we need to have the guts to say, if you're not helping
others grow, you don't grow here either.
No, not. Not with a career and not with
bonuses. No, If you want to have changed,
it's changed something. We need to make people
accountable and unfortunately that's that means that people
that have a certain way of acting and need to adapt as
well, not just this, this in the represented groups.
OK, so I want to move forward to 2032 when this is all completely
normal. What does she unfolds look like
then? Ask this great question, this is
this, this initiatives. In the end, if everything is as
we hope society and the workplace should look like,
there is no sharing faults because there is no need anymore
for a certain initiative. Perhaps we can have great
moments together, but not with the initial thought of
connecting people, but just having great events for for men
and women together, for for doing, for the having fun
together without the pressure on changing problems we currently
have. Yeah, that sounds like a great
place to to close. Emily von Putten, thanks very
much for the amazing interview. If people want to learn more
about you and more about Shian faults, where would you like to
send them? Personally, you can find me on
LinkedIn. That's where I share a lot about
all the topics we just talked about.
And if you're curious about Shian faults.
Yeah, I, we're, we're just building the community.
And if you want to be part of it, get in contact with me, send
me a message. Things have to be built.
We need to yeah, volunteers to help us build it in the end.
OK, cool. So that's also your call to
action then, if you want to help build a community.
Be part of it. You'll have plenty of space,
yeah. Reach out to Emily and we'll
include the link to your LinkedIn profile in the show
notes. Thank you so much for having me.
You're welcome and thanks for being an amazing guest and role
model. And for the listeners, thank you
very much for listening. And until the next episode, keep
being awesome. Well, that's a wrap for episode
111 of Women Disrupting Tech with Emily Von Berton on how she
unfolds creates the space where women in tech belong.
Emily and I hope that you found our conversation as inspiring as
we intended it to be. And if you have any questions
for Emily or for me, please leave them in the comments on
Spotify, Apple, or YouTube. If you'd like to learn more
about Emily as she unfolds, please check out the show notes
at Women Disrupting Tactile blog.
The link is also in the description.
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