Well, same goes for how we interpret behavior.
When a man speaks up, he's seen as confident, assertive, or
really strong leader. But when a woman woman does the
same, she might be labeled as bossy, difficult, and even
aggressive. Sometimes that makes it harder
for women to be taken seriously or seen as natural leaders.
Welcome to Women Disrupting Tech.
My name is dear Ken Lucas, and on this podcast, I give the
women who work in tech the platform they need to inspire
and empower each other. Join me on your journey into the
world of entrepreneurship, funding biases, and role models
to discover the strategies for success in the tech industry.
In other words, how women can disrupt tech.
Are you ready to listen? Hey, welcome back to Women
Disrupting Tech, and thank you for tuning in to episode 113.
So what if tech didn't look like a guy in hoodie coding alone in
a darkroom? That question sits at the heart
of this episode titled Why Women in Tech Can't Fix the System
Alone. I talked to Femke Brauer
Hoebelen. She's a seasoned leader in tech
who never quite fit the stereotype and never needed to.
We talk about what happens when women are told to lean in to a
system that wasn't built for them, how she found out she was
underpaid, and why fixing the system means involving people
who still hold most of the power.
Femka doesn't just name the problem, she offers a path
forward too, from how we raise our daughters to how we build
more inclusive leadership. And she leaves us with this.
It's not about taking something away from men.
It's about creating a system where everyone has a fair chance
to thrive. So when you're ready to start
building a future like this, please.
Welcome to Women Disrupting Tech Femke Brauer.
Hoebleun Femke Brauer, welcome to women disrupting tech.
Good to have you Question. I always ask at the start is how
you got into your current job or current position.
Well, I actually stumbled into IT tech back in 2000 quite by
accident. I started in a marketing role as
AIT Reseller and I never really left the industry after that.
Such an innovative environment with plenty of exciting and
challenging roles and solutions. During the first ten years I
worked in various commercial roles, sales, marketing, partner
sales, both at big organisations like Microsoft and HP and at
smaller companies as well. My career for example.
Eventually I moved into leadership roles.
I started as a team lead and then took on a small managerial
role at the startup and laid their progress to more senior
positions at companies like Dell.
There I was responsible as a senior manager for a partner
sales team in direct and direct roles, managing about 25 people
and overseeing around 130 million in revenue.
And I learned a lot, especially that I really enjoy leading
large teams with a lot of responsibility and I try some
challenges in the workplace. Well, over time, I did also
realize that larger organizations no longer suited
me very much to inflexible, limited freedom.
Office politics are restricted mandates.
So that's why in recent years I've taken on a CEOCEO roles at
smaller companies, helping them grow sustainably and
professionalize the internal organizations.
And while one of the question is how did I get to this level, I
think of course I've worked hard, kept developing myself,
built strong networks and especially stay persistent.
You hear a lot of know quite a lot of times before you get a
yes, especially when you don't follow the most of this path.
But I also had a few key people, in my case mostly men, who saw
potentially me and opened the doors.
So that made a real difference. And yes, timing and being in the
right place at the right time matter, too.
I often say there are so many women with the same skills,
knowledge and right who don't get these opportunities.
So it really is a mix of perseverance, opportunity and
sometimes a bit of luck. Yeah.
So that's in a nutshell my career so far.
OK, cool. So we're going to talk a bit
about the why the system is broken and why it's not the
system needs to be fixed and not to women, essentially, because
as I remember it, it was a comment that you made on one of
my LinkedIn posts about two years ago that we should fix.
Yeah, it's been a while in making this episode, but why do
you believe that the system is broken and that we need to fix
the system? Well, unfortunately, even today
we're not living in a true meritocracy, The idea that
people advance purely based on the talent and hard work,
regardless of gender or background, even though some
people would like us to believe we are.
When I first started working, I believed it too, but over the
course of my career, my perspective really shifted.
You can see there's so many areas, the persistent gender
pray gap, fewer women in senior leadership roles, products or
technologies designed primarily for what they call default men
in tech. For example, I'm often the only
women at the senior leadership table among 25 or 30 men, and
that can be very frustrating and sadly it leads to many women
leaving field in my experience. But the inequality isn't just
the work, it shows up at home too.
Society is still largely structured around women taking
most of the households and childcare responsibilities.
Childcare systems are often very rigid and flexible, making it
harder for women to combine career and family life.
And it even goes deeper. The system is embedded in almost
everything, our school system, healthcare, technology, it's
incredibly complex and honestly it's hard to impact fully in one
podcast conversation. But in my experience, once you
start seeing it, you really can't and see it.
And there's something important to mention, the system doesn't
only hurt women, men are affected by it too.
In fact, we're all part of it and whether we realise or not,
but not everyone sees it because it's system.
The system often benefit those who are already in a position of
privilege. But if we really want to change
things about women and men, we both, We need both women and men
to be part of the solution. Only then we can start to create
real, lasting change and ensure that opportunities in
organization and in society at large are true, truly equal for
everyone. Yeah.
So how are men affected here in this case?
Well, what I see for example, is that a man do not get the
opportunity to work four days a week to take care of the
children or they're not allowed to express any emotions or there
are a lot of examples. If you dive deeper into that,
it's like affecting them a lot as well.
And what are the effects especially just curious because
not allowed to take four days a week off or a day a week off to
take care of the children. From a personal experience,
everyone almost at ING and and and worked four days a week.
Working five days a week was even at at the time.
This is 2015 to through 2018. Even frowned upon is that is
that different in smaller organizations then?
No, it wasn't allowed at Dell at larger IT companies either.
I even had to fight for half a day off so work 4 1/2 days
because they didn't have like the contracts even to support
it. OK, interesting that that I
didn't know that the IT culture was such that it was really
standard for five days a week, 8 hours a day probably then.
Yeah. Well, I'm not sure if it's at
every large IT organization, but I've experienced that at several
companies. OK, and and large and small.
Yes. OK, So going back to something
you said earlier. So this this system is ingrained
everywhere. It's also in our in our
upbringing, in our school system.
So what can you give some examples of where it is embedded
in the school system? Well, because you see a lot of
studies that boys and girls are approached differently.
There are a lot of gender biased ideas about how a boy and a girl
should do behave and what they should be interested in.
Girls should be more like the nurturing, nice type of girl.
Boys should be interested in techniques and all types of
building toys and stuff like that.
So it really starts at the early age.
And I'm going to elaborate that later on in another question you
asked me. But yeah, it's it's it's very
important because when girls doesn't see themselves in like
technical roles or they get like demotivated to do it, then
change will never happen. Or not at the scale we would
like it to be. You know, if we, if you, you
can't be what you can't see. Right.
That's that's an important thing it.
Is very important and that's why I did some role modelling
campaigns as well. I was wondering what, what
elements of this system do you do you think need to be fixed
and how can we start approaching that?
So how can we fix education? How we can we fix how we
approach gender stereotypes? I think one of the core problems
is that women are still not judged the same to the same
standards as men. With men, we often look at the
potential, what they could grow into.
With women we tend to focus on our track record, what they've
already done, and even then there's often still doubt if
they could do it. There have been studies where
identical resumes CVS were sent out, the only different being
the name on the top, one male, one female.
And what happened? The male CVS resumes were
constantly rated higher even though the continent was exactly
the same, so that's a sign of clear bias.
And this is still happening in the workforce all.
Same goes for how we interpret behavior.
When a man speaks up, you're seen as confident, assertive or
really strong leader. But when a woman woman does the
same, she might be labeled as bossy, difficult, and even
aggressive. Sometimes that makes it harder
for women to be taken seriously or seen as natural leaders.
And when it when it gets a bit worse, when you go higher up the
organization at entry level, the gender ratio is often pretty
balanced. But if you as you move forward,
senior leadership women starts to disappear.
So somewhere along the way, the system isn't working.
And that's why we really need to focus our attention on.
OK, so how do women not filter through to the higher parts of
an organization? What happens somewhere in
between? Yeah.
Well, that's a really complex question because it really
depends on the organization culture, how we perceive women,
but also the situation at home because usually during the
course of time they start a family and they have like other
responsibilities, etcetera, etcetera.
So it's it's, it's quite complex, but hopefully after
listening this podcast, you will get a bit of insight about that
as well. What also matters within
organization is what I call critical mess.
Research showed that real, lasting change only happens when
at least 30% of a team or leadership group is made-up of
women. Otherwise, women remain the
exception and the culture doesn't really shift.
Language plays a role, too. Historically, women have often
been addressed in ways that kind of undermine their authority.
For example, calling a professional women or a senior
leader girl may seem harmless, but it makes it harder for
people to take her seriously by others and sometimes by yourself
as well. And this is actually a real
example from like 3 weeks ago. The CEO was called girl in front
of an audience. We also need to recognize that
it's not enough to tell women to speak up more or negotiate
harder. I think those things matter, of
course, but if only if the system rewards them fairly when
they do. That means rethinking how we
define leadership, performance, and success and adjust the
system to those values to reflect that.
And the last point I would like to make is that, of course, this
isn't just about women, people from other underrepresented
backgrounds, but because of race, disability, age, or
anything else face face similar invisible barriers.
So real equality means redesigning the system for
everyone, not just for one group.
No true. It's even for for people, let's
say over 5055, they are seen as like, OK, you're on your way to
your retirement. So we're not going to promote
you even though you could or we're not going to hire you
because you're going to go year round for for another 30 years.
You do something on the side. I can tell you from personal
experience that this hurts you because people will or employers
will say, well, yeah, that's you're not completely loyal to
us, so maybe we shouldn't hire you and maybe you want to go
away in three years, which is like light year way if you ask
me. Nobody, no one can predict.
So if it's OK to to go to the next question, what what are the
hidden cost of this to women but also to society?
Yeah, well, I think the hidden cost for women adapting to this
system is huge, personally and financial.
The gender pay gap remains a big challenge, women earning less
than men for the same work. And in the Netherlands, it's
also linked to the fact that many women work part time
because they take home more household and childcare
responsibility. And in the current system, part
time work usually means lower pay, fewer promotions and slower
career growth progression. Well, when it comes to
entrepreneurship, women LED startups get only a small share
of the investment capital compared to men.
Many women have to bootstrap or self fund their businesses,
limiting their ability to grow and scale, which creates an
uneven playing field where women have to work harder with fewer
resources. And that's a loss for society
too because we miss out on diverse innovation and
perspective. So to fix this, it's not enough
to tell people to work, tell women to work harder or be more
entrepreneurial. We need to change how investors
and organization think, create fairer funding processes, and
actively support women with mentorships and net and networks
because I'm convinced that when the system works for everyone,
we unlock the potential of everyone and that benefits us
all. Yeah, So what, what, what
experiences did you run into yourself?
So you mentioned at the beginning that you were lucky to
have a few good men support you. Yes, sure.
That's important. That's very, very important.
Yeah. But well, I I can give you a few
examples. My own experience with the
gender pay gap for example, made it very real for me.
At 1 employer, I found out that I was earning significantly less
than my male colleagues even though we had similar roles and
experiences. How did you find out?
Did you? Ask because I talked to a
colleague and because a manager sort of mentioned it during a
review conversation. And then I started digging.
Yeah, OK. Because I wasn't aware of even
that there would be a Jenna page.
I wasn't aware of a Jenna page at all at the time, and it
really felt unfair and frustrating.
And later on, the organization tried to close the gap and
suddenly they offered me like a 10% range raise.
Like, huh? But yeah, it's really strange to
discover this. And you have.
And after digging into it myself, of course, and I think
it shouldn't have been something I had to find out.
Quite disappointing. Yeah.
Did you feel cheated, Paul? Well, or taking advantage of.
It was not like respectful and I didn't feel recognised.
That's was more my, my feeling about it.
But it, it's really unfair as well, of course.
So I felt that too, yeah. And I do have another example
which is quite stunning as well. I think I was already in a
senior leadership position and my manager made a comment.
He said something like, well, you're already earning a lot.
I think for women that's what he meant.
I'm not sure. And your husband has a good
salary too so you don't need a raise.
And that moment showed me how unconscious bias can show up
even in in subtle ways. Or I'm not sure if this is
subtle and how outdated perceptions are about general
rules and money. And this still influence
decisions in boards, apparently. I don't consider it subtle in
any way. Shape or form, but it was like
sort of one line in a conversation.
So it afterwards it's just. What, out of curiosity, what did
it do to your to you as a person, did you like think?
Because I've spoken to women who were in the same situation and
one actually an episode that airs on the day that we record
this, decided to pack up our bags that day and just leave,
Say, OK, well apparently you don't want me so I'm just going
to take my whole business elsewhere.
But what? What was your response?
Well, I really realized afterwards because it was like a
longer conversation and then I felt like this is so traditional
and we're still still here. I thought we were like her in
the process, so why is she saying this?
And then I actually talked to him about it and asked him, why
did you say that? And what do you think that is
that this is doing to me? And I don't think it's fair.
And then he said, yeah, well, I understand what you're saying,
but I'm not sure if he didn't do it like another time because
it's it's, it's, it's apparently it's, it's, it's, it's still in
the system of a lot of people unconsciously.
Yeah, that's that's, it's quite normal to have the men earn the
money and the woman stay at home because that's I think where
most of these discussions start. Yeah.
So you talked about critical mass, about having that we have
to ensure that tech or that companies in general have at
least 30% women. Why is it important not only to
look at, let's say the technical parts of company, but like
broader as well, like commercial and yeah, also leadership?
Well, I think indeed the conversation should be broader
than focusing on technical roles and founders.
I hear that a lot because tech is so much more than coding or
building a company from scratch. And I think when we change the
image of what tech really means, we need more women, girls, and
maybe other underrepresented groups will become interested
because working with new technologies and solving real
problem is generally very, very exciting in my teams.
We need great listeners who understand customer needs and
translate those into tech solutions.
Sure, technical development is crucial, but just as important
is translating that into business and impacts and then
you will create lasting change. And I see or I hear that tech is
often seen very narrowly, like the guy in Woody coding alone in
a dark room. But there are so many diverse
roles where collaboration drives real innovation.
I actually started my tech career in sales and marketing,
as I mentioned before, but the narrow view really makes it
harder. And that's also my own
experience because I, I, I taught at elementary schools,
it's harder to attract girls and women to tech.
And the education system should change this by showing kids from
a very young age how broad and exciting tech really is.
And I think it's not only for women or in the represented
groups. Broadening confrontation is also
vital for the companies themselves because my first team
bring fresh perspective leading to better ideas, stronger
solutions, etcetera, etcetera. And it's proven that more women
in leadership positions means better decision making, more
impactful innovations. So what we really need and take
now in my perspective is more female leaders who want to make
a difference and by recognizing a value all the roles in tech,
not just coding open store for more women and other groups to
try, lead and create real impact.
Yeah, I agree there. Our conversation now, I remember
our conversation started on LinkedIn with a comment that you
made on one of my posts around your podcast sort of hinges on
the idea that my guests have made it so so can you.
And that's also a bit about what role role modeling is about.
At least the podcast idea that I have is based on the on the
assumption, OK, if I show these successful women, then I inspire
people. Why is that not necessarily true
that it works that way? Well, I think it's really
powerful to have role models. I've been one myself that share
their stories and show what's possible.
And I'm I'm I'm a huge supporter of women who found success in
their own way. These stories are incredibly
important. However, I've listened to some
of your podcasts where the focus is heavily on the idea of
meritocracy. If you just work hard enough,
push yourself, become more visible, or negotiate better,
every woman can make it. And I don't fully agree with
that. And recent study backed this up
as well. There are many women, a lot of
women who work hard, who are talented and ambitious but still
don't get the opportunities. Just look at the average
leadership team within tech. I believe around 10% of mid
senior leadership roles in tech are by are held by women.
This is where the system I mentioned earlier comes into
play again. And if you don't realise that
you're operating in an environment where you're viewed
and just judge differently from your colleagues, including all
the unconscious biases, it's easy to start doubting yourself.
You think, and this is a real example, I'm doing everything
what's expected of me, Why is it not being recognized?
I get better refuse. I've been working hard for three
years, yet my male colleague with one years of experience
gets promotion. So from my perspective,
ambition, determination are very important, but it's crucial to
understand that you're operating in a an equal field.
Often it's not about the the woman or effort, but it's also
about the system. And I've seen cases that no
matter how to work or learn, sometimes the opportunity just
isn't there. And when I personally realized
that, it took me quite a while. I started figuring out I would
navigate this reality in a way that works for me and not by
following the usual advice of be visible or negotiate better or
constantly sending emails about my achievements.
That was expected in the larger IT companies, but by finding my
approach. And that still got noticed.
And over time I developed my own leadership style.
Result driven yet empathetic, always keeping people at the
centre. And I think it's about finding
your your authentic way to succeed within a system that
still needs change. And I that's why I think these
conversations are so important, because change will only happen
if we all recognize more or less the bigger picture and not just
the individual effort. Yeah, that that I agree with.
So how do we how do we get there?
Do we flood the system with women as one of my previous
guests said? Is that is that the solution?
We just. No, I, I, well, I don't think
so. But this is very complicated
question as well, because we really need to do it together,
men and women. So we really need to find a
system which works for everyone. And I'm not sure if that's like
flooding the system with women. I'm not sure.
Me neither, but I was just curious so we'll get you.
You need like balanced teams to get like the most successful
outcome. So you both need men and women.
But then it's important that women get the chance.
Yeah. And how do we get to that point?
Yes. OK.
So we also talked about English. We're recording this in English
as as a barrier to or as a potential barrier.
So I come from La La Land, where everyone speaks, almost everyone
speaks proper English. We before we started, I
discussed one manager that didn't, who was really high up,
which to me was like really shocking.
So remember a Prime Minister who was talking about a country?
I remember hearing that. And like, OK, so you're
representing an entire country. Why can't you even pronounce
this word correctly? Right, but.
What what is the the role of of English here?
Well, I'm Speaking of the Netherlands and it's often
assumed that everyone speaks English very well or feel
comfortable using it. And there are really signs that,
for example, women with patient education backgrounds like MBO
called in the Netherlands, face real language barrier.
So many find it very difficult to follow and listen to English
language podcasts, especially when the topics are complex or
sensitive. And I believe it's important
that these women also hear this information, particularly since
some Dutch specific culture issues come up in the
conversation. For example, in the Netherlands
there's a strong motherhood ideology where women are
expected to work no more than 3.5 days a week once they have
children, definitely not full time, and this directly affect
the career progression and ultimately the chance to reach
leadership roles. On average, women's salaries
drop around 35% by having a kid, which is known as the child
penalty. So initially we've discussed
this before. I would have preferred to do the
postcards in Dutch to reach more women across different
backgrounds to make a real impact across all layers of the
Dutch society. Dutch would have been ideal, but
I also value of course the chance to connect with an
English speaking audience. These challenges around women
and tech leadership are not unique to the Netherlands,
they're global. I I think so.
If sharing my story in English can spark recognition or
inspiration beyond order, that's incredibly meaningful to me as
well. Yeah.
And also I think, and that's also why I wanted to give you
the platform also in English, is that it reaches the audience who
may not be aware of these brokerages in, in that sense,
especially of the English part language part.
Because to me that was sort of, I wouldn't say shocker, but an
eye opener for sure that I was like, OK, so.
Because if if I go to my work at an art gallery, I pass by a
coffee shop and I sometimes I go in and the last time I had to
order in English because everyone there is so accustomed
to English. So, but then again, I understand
that I'm privileged in the sense that I, I've worked in English
speaking environments for pretty much my whole life, that my
parents both spoke pretty good English, which I think helps
that I have had higher education, so not a vocational
education. So does that also make going to,
to the vocational women in vocational education for a bit?
Does that also make IT more difficult to enter because there
is so much English? I mean the whole terminology in
in IT is is pretty much English. Yeah, yeah, probably.
It's harder to learn in a different language.
Yeah. But I, I think most of the
lessons at MBO, what I understood from a professor, are
mainly in Dutch, like only the work related terminologies in
English. So maybe, well, I guess then
it's doable. And I think it's a bit different
if you're like, you need to listen to a full conversation in
English or have a conversation in English or only use like
typical work language or IT language and then do the
explanation in Dutch or have a conversation in Dutch with other
people's. Yeah.
And for me, five years ago, it was an eye opener as well.
Same As for you, because I'm living in my own bubble as well.
But I think in order to create a real change, we really need to
have conversations with everyone.
So it's important to take that into account as well if you want
to reach a broader audience. It's part of inclusive
inclusivity as well. Yeah, make people belong.
So what other role can education play to make tech or tech more
appealing to women or to girls? Well, I think education can play
a very important role in getting more girls enthusiastic about
technology because in my opinion, it starts at a young
age. We need to be aware of how we
raise and guide boys and girls and make sure we're not
unconsciously steering them in different directions.
I think if we show girls from an early age how fun, creative and
meaningful tech can be, they're more likely to see it as
something for them to. Right now the numbers in the
tech related education in the Netherlands is still quite low.
For me that's a concern because if fewer girls choose the tech
part, fewer will make it into the tech force and the imbalance
will continue. Tech is often seen as something
for boys and that stereotype old school girls really back.
The more we can break that image and createspace for girls to
explore tech, the more progression we'll make.
And again, it's not all about about numbers because as
mentioned before, more women in tech means more diverse
perspective, which leads to more inclusive innovations.
And when you bring different viewpoints to the table, the
solution you build are better and more relevant for a wider
group. So we really need to focus on
education as well and parents to.
How do we quote UN quote fix the parents part of the system?
Well, I'm not sure. I, I, I don't think there's like
easy solution because it's very cultural, but it starts with
having a conversation and making parents aware.
A lot of parents aren't aware of this, yes, but there are a lot
of very nice videos on YouTube who which really show the
problem and it starts at like when children are one or two
months old. My dad can.
Yeah, they did an experiment, yeah, in in the UK.
What was the experiment? Well, they filmed some people
working at the daycare and how they respond to babies who look
like a boy or look like a girl. So they took one baby first, put
some girlie's clothing on and looked at how the baby was
approached and how the daycare worker interacted with the baby.
And then they put on some boys clothing and looked at that as
well. The same daycare worker and it
was very different. They brought different toys,
they talked differently, et cetera, et cetera.
It's it's. The same, same baby.
Same baby but the assumption was a girl or a boy was enough to
change behaviour. OK, even a daycare worker.
Yeah. Wow, that's, that's interesting.
I didn't know it was that deep because at even at that level I
would expect maybe not the impact to be that big because it
that when children are. It continues.
Yeah, yeah. That's the problem and and and
it's not everyone right, but it's still there.
So I was wondering, we talked about the system that needs to
be fixed. We know talked about some of the
solutions in English as a language barrier.
How do you contribute to fixing the system within the companies
you work for? How do you do that?
How do you? Address Well, at the moment I'm
in between jobs. I'm not actively working in an
organization, but in previous roles I always try to contribute
to change whatever I could. I'm very aware that I can't
change an entire system on my own, but that doesn't mean you
can't do anything. In my experience, there are many
ways to start making a difference.
Looking critically at recruitment processes,
addressing the gender pay gap where I needed, and working
working at create a culture where people can truly be
themselves. Because culture really matters.
It's about people. Make sure people feel safe,
seen, included. And I've also found out that
having open conversations about the topic really helps.
I talked to colleagues and leaders to raise awareness and
to help people recognize the patterns that still exists.
Because as mentioned before, once you start see the system,
you can't Unsee it. And the more people become
aware, the more momentum we will build toward lasting change.
Most people don't actually agree with inequality, but they just
don't always realize it's happening right in front of
them. So that's why I try.
That's what I try to do within my sphere of influence.
Even sometimes it feels quite small, but I think if enough of
us do that, then it can lead so big.
Do something bigger. That's like, in a nutshell, what
I do. OK.
So can you give an example of how you open up these
conversations? What what, what is that?
Is that sort of how do you do that?
Well, sometimes there's like a situation then I just ask an
open question. So someone in an organization
A-Team lead already has like 7 people looking like him in the
team and has decided to hire another person exactly the same
and just ask why did you hire the person?
And yeah, and have the conversation about that and
usually you get into these types of you share information about
that and you get some awareness because usually they are not
aware. So that's an example or I had
some conversation with CEOs as well about why their
organization is quite non balanced, but always from like
an open perspective, not judging, just sharing
information and try to create awareness.
Yeah. And does that then help?
Do you see that? Yeah.
Sometimes it does, but it really depends on the person.
And I also found out that not everyone is open for the
conversation. So if I sense that there is not
like a willingness to listen or they're not open to hear
different perspective, then I I'm not going to do it.
In the past I tried it but it's useless in my opinion.
So people really need to have some open mind about it already.
Yes. So then the trick becomes or the
the pivot sort of becomes, creating that open mind with.
More people, if they already have an open mind about it or
open to hear more about it, then you can have an open
conversation. Yeah.
Do you see that more that open mind?
Do you see that more in younger people or in just doesn't age
play a role in your experience? No.
OK, so it doesn't play a. Role no no it in my personal
experience it doesn't matter. I'm not sure what studies say
but no no no. There are some open minded older
men and not so open minded younger men and everything in
between SO and women as well of course, but because not every
woman realizes this as well so. Yeah, yeah, there are still
there's this trend of the threat wives who are happy to stay,
stay at home which which they should if they're it makes them
happy, I think. So you're a certified
supervisory board member. For context of non Dutch
listeners, we have two tier boards in the Netherlands.
So there's supervisors and there's executives, and
supervisors then have the obligation, let's say, to
oversee what the executives are doing and coach them, advise
them. And yeah, basically, probably
you can say better what what they're allowed and not allowed
to do. But is diversity an inclusion?
Is that the topic that is part of the training at all?
Yes, it is. And in a broader perspective,
diversity is a topic in supervisory board or education
and I guess it's improving amongst other due to the quota
introduced in the Netherlands, listed companies are now
required to have at least 30% women in their supervisory
boards and that's already start to starting to make a difference
see like progression. And I've also heard from the
training institute that more and more women are now enrolling in
supervisory board programs, which is a very positive
development. And when I did the training
myself, there were 14 participants, 11 men, three
women, and around 90% of the group was over the age of 55 S
Yes, general diversity is improving, but I think still a
lot of work has to be done and not just in terms of gender, but
also in terms of age, diversity of thought and experience.
I truly believe that supervisory boards would benefit from having
a wider range of perspective in the board, especially as the
world and the workforce is continues to change.
So a lot has to be done yet still, yeah.
Because the, the traditional view on the supervisory board
member at least also in my mind was like, OK, you start doing
that after you've been an executive for a company.
Then you move sort of while you're also enjoying your
pension, you're also on the supervisory board.
And then at some point, I think it was the code at the box plot
when they started to limit the number of positions that you can
have. And then they introduced, over
time, they introduced A quota that 30% of supervisory board
members have has to be a woman. Yeah, and listed companies.
Yeah, listed companies. Very important addition.
And and also I saw that it doesn't really trickle down to
large non listed companies. No, no, that's still a
challenge, Yeah. Because it's not a requirement,
so we're not going to change. No, probably not.
But I think the supervisory board should like have more
subjects they discuss within the board.
Traditionally it's focused on financial control, but I think
in the current landscape world, for example, it is quite
important. Sustainability is very
important, diversity, inclusion is important and you see that
changing. But what I see most boards are
still focused on finance and control.
So in my opinion, it's important for the future to changed that
as well. And that's what I meant by
diversity of thoughts and experiences, because you really
need that to stay and grow as a company.
But also if you have a broader agenda as a supervisory board,
it makes it more appealing to people with, let's say, not just
a finance and control background.
It sort of limits the pipeline by default, almost I would say.
It does, and that's changing as well, but I think there are some
steps still to make. So we talked about it already a
bit, but what is the specific role that men can play in
changing the system? Well, I think men can play a
crucial role in helping fixing the system.
We want real change and lasting change.
We need to do this together, men and women.
And in fact, I do not believe that women can change change the
system on their own. We need the active support of
male allies who are willing to listen, learn and use their
influence to open doors and challenge.
Challenge state school as well, especially in tech where most of
the leadership position are still held by men.
Position that shape company culture.
Hiring practices or promotions are often in rooms where women
are underrepresented or not present at all, and that's why
it's essential for men in those positions to be part of the
solution to question their own biases.
Advocate fairness and createspace for different
perspectives. And I don't think it's that's
what I hear sometimes. It's not taking something away
from men. It's about creating a system
where everyone has fair chance to thrive.
And I think when we work together, the outcome benefits
everyone. More inclusive themes, better
decision making, and ultimately more successful and innovative
companies. Yeah, so there's a lot to gain.
Gain for men it's not. This year as well, yeah.
It's not, that's what I try to keep saying as well as it's not
a 0 sum game. No it isn't.
But if you're in a competition mindset, it is a 0 sum game
because your gain is my loss. Yes, yeah.
And I don't think we should look at it like that.
No, but breaking debts is is proving to be quite difficult,
let's say. It's a challenge.
Yeah, it's a challenge. I think that's the that's the
understatement of the year. Right.
Yeah. So I'm on a mission to to make
inclusion in tech the new normal by the end of 2032.
What's your expert advice to get?
Yeah. Well, if we want to make
inclusion and take the new normal by 2032, I think we need
to stop treating it like a side project or ticking the box and
start embedding it into the heart of how we build companies,
teams and technology. And I think that means working
on multiple levels at once. So what we discovered before
fixing the system from recruitment to pay gaps, the
progression, language, leadership culture, etcetera.
But it also means changing the narrative.
The women and girls see that tech is also for them.
And it's not just about coding in a hoodie, but it's also about
solving real problems, working with people, creating impact,
and it's also about redefining leadership.
We need more diverse leaders at the table, and not just one or
two, but enough to actually shift the culture.
As mentioned before, studies show you need at least 30%
representation for sustainable change working together.
Women cannot fix this alone. We need male allies and
inclusive leaders who are willing to change the status quo
even though they benefit from it.
And finally, start early. Show goods from your age have
exciting and meaningful tech can be.
If you make it normal for them to see themselves in tech, it
will become normal for everyone. And, and personally I would love
to see a future where every woman, girl or on the in the
represented group feels like that could be their part and
where no one has to adapt to a broken system because the system
finally works for all of us. Sounds like a great place to
close. Yes.
Thank you, Famke. You're welcome.
For a really wonderful conversation.
If people want to learn more about you, where would you like
to send them? Well, as mentioned before, right
now I'm in between roles. There isn't a company I
represent at the moment, but if you would like to stay in touch
to follow what I'm working on next, you can find me LinkedIn.
I regularly share thoughts and experience there and who knows,
by the time this episode airs I might have exciting news to
share. So see you there.
Thanks. We include the link to your
LinkedIn in the show notes so. Thank you.
Fame Kabraar, once again, thank you very much for an amazing
conversation. Listeners, thank you very much
for listening and until the next episode, keep being awesome.
Well, that's a wrapped for episode 113 of women disrupting
tech with Femka Brauer Hobelen titled Why women in tech can't
fix the system alone Femka. And I hope that you found our
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And if you have any questions for Femka, please leave them in
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