At our premiere in September of 23, we premiered at the Women's
International Film Festival in Philadelphia opening night.
I had a dear friend. Yeah, So it was really great.
We had a plum position. I had a dear friend from the
Netherlands was visiting me and so she attended the the premiere
with me and it was almost immediately after the film it's
finished and they're rolling their credits.
And she looked at me and and exclaimed.
She said, I've never really thought that I could be doing
this with my money, with my investments.
And I thought, bam, that's exactly what we want.
Welcome to Women Disrupting Tech.
My name is Der Konopkas, and on this podcast, I give the women
who work in tech the platform they need to inspire and empower
each other. Join me on your journey into the
world of entrepreneurship, funding biases, and role models
to discover the strategies for success in the tech industry.
In other words, how women can disrupt tech.
Are you ready to listen? Hey, welcome back to Women
Instructing Tech and thank you for tuning in to episode 123.
Before we start, in this episode we discuss investments, and
everything in this episode is for informational purposes only,
and none of the content is intended as investment advice.
So you know that capital fuels ideas, but whose ideas are we
fielding? In this episode of Women
Disrupting Tech, I'm joined by Azin Ratzen van Alebek.
She's the Co founder and managing partner at MLN Ventures
and the Co producer of the movie Show Her the Money.
Azin is using venture capital as a lever for change, not just to
generate returns, but to shift behaviours, open doors, and fuel
a broader range of ideas. In this episode, Azina and I
dive into the question why showing female founders some
money builds a better future and reshapes venture capital.
By listening to our conversation, you'll learn how
capital can be used as a level for change, what she means when
she says that thinking big is essential when raising VC money,
and why a quick no from an investor can actually be
progress. As you'll hear, Azine is a great
storyteller. One story that stuck with me is
when Azine talks about her time as a stay at home mom.
Instead of sitting on the couch waiting for life to happen, she
used every available opportunity to learn skills that she needs
to grow. I think it's a beautiful way to
present motherhood as a strength rather than as a gap on your
resume. So when you're ready to listen
and learn how showing her the money changes venture capital,
please. Welcome to women disrupting tech
Azin Ratzen von Aleberg. So Azin Ratzen von Aleberg, good
afternoon. Welcome to women disrupting
tech. Glad to have you.
It's an honor to have you. Let's start with some
background. How did you get to funding M
Line Ventures? What happened before that?
That's such a good question. And dear Count, thank you for
having me and Turkan. You and I met in Rotterdam in
May of 2025, SA few months ago at the inaugural screening of
Show Her the Money, a documentary that was screening
in Rotterdam was the first time in the Netherlands.
For me, it was a personal win moment as well because I hold
Dutch citizenship and have lived in the Netherlands for eight
years. And I felt the message of the
movie, which is about raising awareness about the alarming
lack of women represented in the venture capital industry, right.
And this was very originally, it was very much AUS based idea.
But as I began talking with my friend group in the my
community, my venture capital community, I understood it's
really a global issue. And that's why I work so hard to
ensure that this film could screen outside the US as well.
And I had targeted as the Netherlands as like a country.
I really wanted to make sure this conversation was ignited.
And in this what your understanding is for me,
Emmeline is very mission focused.
It is about using venture capital, the proper venture
capital techniques, ways of investing, the ability to make
outsized returns much larger on average than public market
returns, and the ability to change behavior and to bring
innovation to our future. That that essence is very
important to me when we overlay it with a gender lens.
And so I am now in what is often called a third chapter of life.
I've had some great prior chapters, big, I don't know,
like Hofsticka, almost like a trilogy, if you will.
And in this part of my story, I am fully focused on creating
legacy on a, on a global level and using my privileges and my
past experiences and my past knowledge.
It's all ties together. This is the right spot for me
right now. Yeah.
I think. Also good to understand that
indeed our our goal is is the same to close that funding gap,
though we have different ways of doing it.
Yeah, and I think about that and that's important, right?
Like, I think that's that's a celebration that we have
different ways of doing it because it is such a large
systemic, intractable lease. You know, it seems intractable.
Like how are we going to do this?
With any large problem? You attack it from all different
sides, different angles, with different techniques and
different techno tools. Like, right.
Visually, I have the image of a huge boulder.
Well, we're not all going to focus on one part with the same
tool. We're going to approach it from
different, from different angles and, and, and different tools.
Yours might be blunt edged. Mine might be positioned like a
laser, right. Someone else is going to come
with some other alchemy to, to break up that boulder.
And I think we all need to coordinate and collaborate and
celebrate our our community together.
Absolutely agree. Yeah, thank you.
So I will often present myself as someone who it is
extraordinary that I sit in the chair that I do right now given
my background and at the same time it is exactly where I
should be given my background. So that dichotomy holds true.
And, and in this I'll share that I have a great educational
foundation. So I always reference it because
I'm a firm believer in education and I know that I have benefited
from a from a very good one. I studied quantitative
economics, so math based economics at Stanford.
I worked at a boutique consulting firm where we focused
on performance based financial analysis and company valuation
for both private publicly traded companies.
So I've been immersed at this thinking primarily of overall
company value and how the C level and board of directors can
operate to improve shareholder value.
I went Business School continued and more financial learning and
marketing and some other areas, then went back to the same
consulting role. So I was on trajectory and had
great exposure, learnings network.
And and then I took a huge pivot, which it's again a
dichotomy like do you know me as the type A business person or do
you know me as what? I reinvented myself into the
stay at home mom. And so for 25 years, given the
given context at that time, I chose to be at stay at home mom.
When our first kid was born, I had two more kids.
We moved to the Netherlands, I learned Dutch, I figured out how
to live in Europe and, and build my own friend group.
And then we moved back to the US and I started doing a lot more
volunteerism, primarily in school systems.
I taught, I coached sports, I've coached life and and performance
coaching from a mental side. What else have I done?
I've been on a bunch of advisory committees and boards and
through it all I've always been an investor, primarily in public
markets. And then in 2008 I entered into
private into Angel investing. So.
And so how do you end up in Angel investing them?
Yeah, I'll tell you, it's a lovely story.
It's a friend of mine, the father of one of my children's
good friends. He was involved in an Angel
group in Oregon. And I've actually never asked
him, like, why did you ask me? But he asked me.
He invited me. They were doing a pooled
investment. There were 50 slots, so they
were looking for 50 investors to put in a certain amount of money
collectively to diligence and to to select deals in a one year
period. And he invited me into the room
and I'm so thankful that he thought of me because I didn't
know anything about Angel investing.
And honestly, I didn't really know about the private markets
and venture capital and how it all worked.
So that was my first entry into it.
I was a huge learning year. And I will say what it, it's,
it, it's also remarkable that first pooled investment, there
are fifty of us, as I mentioned, we voted collectively, we built
a portfolio of five companies. That portfolio has returned over
10X returns. I mean it, it was phenomenal.
And, and I didn't know this, but that, you know, it takes, it
took about 7 years for the first distribution check to come back
and it took 14 for the final distribution, right?
Like venture investing at the early stages is very long term.
And, and so, but that got me curious and interested and I
started making direct investments into friends, into
truly friends and families, startups.
I looked for other opportunities to invest became an LP and some
venture funds. And it's just, it has remained
an industry, an asset class that I just find so wonderful.
It's hopeful thinking about the future.
It's it's learning about the latest and greatest innovation
in technologies. The people who are in it have
this insatiable curiosity and, and, and, and positivity while
remaining skeptical at the same time.
So. Yeah, that's a, Yeah, that's A,
and it's a unique trade off I think for the that this sector
is in. It's indeed.
On the one hand, it's really, you have to be really curious as
an investor because you are seeing all kinds of new things
that no one knows about or nobody cared about before.
And then all of a sudden you have to understand what it
means. And if you want to invest in it.
And on the other hand, you have to sort of be a bit protective.
So a bit skeptical about it indeed.
Yeah, I mean, I find it's, I would say to my background, I
have been someone who has always felt like an outsider.
I grew up in a small town in Michigan where my brother and I
were the only kids who looked like us at school, right.
And yet I was part of that. And I look back and I'm like, I
loved that. That is part of my background.
I've lived in the US as an Iran, someone who's felt Iranian
different. But then when I lived in the
Netherlands, I was told I was an example of an American, which
was very funny to me. And so and I speak a few
languages. So I have always had, it's
innate right. I I operate on this continuum of
being either in or out or somewhere in between, as you're
saying. As Avci think, that's a really
valuable skill because you do have to look at both ends and be
able to firmly and convincingly support all the different views.
Yeah. So how does that background you
mentioned that you and your brother were the only Iranian
guys or people in the in the village.
How? How does that help as AVC or how
does it help in general in life to adapt?
To yeah, no, I'll start with a how does that help in general in
life? And I think it's the
understanding that your what you hold is true is not necessarily
held true by everyone else. And so to do a few things,
understand what it is that others hold dear, what their
values are, how they're operating, and understand the
why of it. And then to be able to also
reflect upon your own values and understand like and how come
this is important to me and to look for commonality.
And I would say the same if if you've been an expat, if you've
lived in other countries when I lived in the Netherlands, right?
Like things were different than both my Iranian cultural
background and things were different from my American
upbringing. How approaches and in the in
being curious, the fun really is, is like understanding why.
Why is it this way? Why do they operate that way?
What does it protect? What does it signify?
And so if you approach it with open mindedness and curiosity,
it just, it allows your world to be so much larger.
Yeah, it said. Do you find it also more fun
that way? Oh, 100%.
But I'm, I'm, I think I'm, I'm a curious type person and I like
learning and, and it's, yeah, it's just, it's, and I'm in, I
mean, if you want to go into like personality types, I could
tell you why it fits with my personality types.
But the idea of also being able to what?
In the US there's a term called code shifting, right?
So if you're in one group, you act one way and then when you go
into another community, you might start pushing and flexing
other aspects of your personality.
And that's just, for me, it's fun.
It's not acting, but it's an ability to allow your entire
personality to to be at play, if you will.
Yeah. But also to bring to to
highlight certain parts of your personality based on the
situation that you're in, if I hear you correctly.
I think so, yes. Yeah.
So I was wondering, yeah, because you mentioned that when
you were first involved, you first got involved with Angel
investing, you were with a group of 50, I think.
Yes. How, out of curiosity, how many
women were there? Yes, great question.
My memory is there were probably 10 of us.
It wasn't awful, but it wasn't great, right.
So 20% and at that time and it could be fewer by the way, I
might, I might be overestimating.
I can tell you similarly and differently when I was working
in consulting and was working with C level executives and
boards of directors, I remember, and this was for five years and
I must have had over 102 hundred different executives and
individuals that we worked with. I remember at most 5 people
being women. That's pretty low.
Really low.
And so this is if you say like, why am I doing what I'm doing at
Emmeline to help accelerate women in specifically in now
venture capital, which is again, I am taking a small chunk of the
entire problem because this is something I've seen my entire
life, the lack of representation by women and people of color in
positions of power and in positions where there is great
money to be made, right? Yeah.
And maybe also tell the audience what that does.
What is the result of the under representation of women?
Yeah, I would say it's it's, it's multifold.
So one is is if you assume there's a, here's one idea for
you. Those who are intimate to
problems are the ones who will be solving them.
Because if you don't know about a problem, it's unlikely that
you're going to be thinking a founder who's who's building a
startup to solve a problem. That is a very difficult path.
It is lonely, it's hard. So you are going to choose to
work on something that is very important to you.
So if we can agree on that, what it means is if you don't have
enough representation of different types of founders and
that we assume that certain problems are gender based, it
means that conditions that affect her are going to be under
resourced, underfunded, under investigated and under solved.
And that because Venture is all about our future, that means
we're just setting ourselves up today for a future that is less
and less inclined to to fully activate over half of our
population. And I'm going to add one more
thought on this. If you think that if you assume
correctly that talent is equally distributed and I don't care if
you want to talk about gender, skin color, geography, lefter,
hand rightedness, political orientation, religious
orientation, talent is equally distributed.
What is at issue is opportunity is not.
And so again, you are narrowing a focus.
Capital fuels ideas. And if we're not fueling a full
cross section of ideas, we are building a future that doesn't
allow all of us to be our best self.
So that's 1/2 for those and that affects everyone.
Whether you know about venture capital or not, it's going to
affect you. How?
It also will affect those who actually invest in this space,
be they founders, general partners, GPS like myself or
LP's, those who invest in the funds like an asset class.
Those 3 constituent groups are also highly male.
So 85% GPS are male, 98% founders are male and around 80%
of investors are male. What happens is asset classes I
mentioned earlier, it typically has delivered two times the
returns that a public market portfolio will return.
So if you think a public market returns typically 10%.
Of a of a return that your investments in venture are 20%
that's a huge difference over time.
It is the wealth creation difference, right?
One is it is true generational wealth.
Let me say it that way. So if women are not
participating here, we're also falling behind, not only because
of our gender pay gap, but because of what happens once we
get that pay and how we invest it.
Yeah. And this is not solved by just
investing in your ETF, index funds, whatever.
And mind you by the First off, you know, disclaimer, I'm not a
financial advisor, right? So please trust yet verify
everything I say on this. But two, I do firmly believe
like you need to have a balanced portfolio.
Yes, you should have some ETFs. Yes, you should have some fixed
income, assuming that you meet the requirements And that you, I
mean, I can go into this, but I'm, I'm fairly concerned.
You need to be thoughtful about how much you put into into
alternative, into the alternative asset class.
But so I mean you're able to. You should be considering this.
Yes. And then still go through
financial certified financial advisors.
To well, let me ask you, what do you mean about that?
Our people who have have been at least have are registered.
Sorry. When you've to make these
investments. Yeah, to to to get advice.
Yes, exactly. Yes, yes to get advice.
Thank you, not to make the investment, but to get advice.
OK, this is how much you could. And I can just quickly say
you'll want to think about your risk tolerance, your age, your
overall goals and values, right? There's a long list of questions
and what's right for you is not right for the next person.
There are some ranges, some bands around which we can say,
well, this is typically what one might do.
So I want to talk about some statistics about funding of
female founders. Through Pitchbook I found out
that .9% of EC funding and these are US numbers.
What is it 6% of deal count? So 6% of the number of deals
that were done in in the what will and up until August this
year 2025 go to female founders. What do you was the first moment
you realized, hey, but this is like a very low number because
this number has been sort of the same for past decade, I think.
That's exactly what I was going to say.
Yes, I think when so five years ago, almost almost exactly 5
years ago, I entered into a program called PIPE run by
pipeline angels. It is they run investor boot
camps that are targeted towards women and women of color
primarily. And it's to, to build the
ecosystem, to build the pipeline of those who are both investors
and, and founders. And so you asked when did I
first hear about this number was likely during that boot camp.
It was very much a focus of, of giving us the data and the, I
want to say the inspiration to make a difference.
But obviously it was something that I intuitively already knew
and when I heard the real data. So what was your first fault out
of curiosity? Well, when I heard that number
of the 2%, I don't know exactly what exactly my first thought
was, but let me say there's a few things I was thinking 1A
roll of the eyes of. I didn't realize it was that
low, but I had expected it would have been low.
The second thought would be some skepticism of is that number
really true or not? And what does that number
actually represent getting into the data?
Because if you remember, I was, I was a data girl back back long
ago. And how does one change this?
So those are, you know, those would have been preliminary
thoughts. I'll give you one data back
because I think I don't want to detract from the very low
numbers of women, female founders in the venture space.
What I often have been asked is, well, how many women are
actually presenting their ideas to venture funds?
And so that number is 30% is what I've heard, right.
So you can say that the number is still low relative to the
number of of submissions. And then you could ask and why
aren't more women submitting, right?
It's a pipeline question. And me when you want to talk
about how is it that we can bring more female representation
into this entire ecosystem? Like I started at the beginning,
of course, what we're doing will have effect, but I think there
are cultural issues at play as well.
How do we educate, how do we, what expectations do we put on
our girl students versus our boy students, right?
How do we parent them? How do we speak to them
differently? So it's it is not going to be
solved in one space. No, and not in.
I don't think it's going to be solved in one generation.
I don't, although people ask me about this too.
And, and my hopefulness looking forward, I would say I have
three children who are in like their late 20s, one who's 30.
And so through them I get to see the eyes of their generation.
And I would say even the generation younger than them,
there is a different approach towards gender and, and the
understanding of, of gender limitations.
I think some of those hurdles have been removed.
Some of the limitations are, are being taken away.
There's a broader sense of what a girl can do, what a boy can do
right. And I actually do here was
something that for me was a huge aha is we talk a lot about young
girls and young women and women at large and giving them
opportunities and making sure that they feel like they have
the full spectrum. And I had a young man point out
to me, he said, we are we men don't all want to be the the
knight on the horse either. And there are many more roles
for the young boys to play as well and the men to play as
well. And I thought that that that
gave me great pause. Yeah, yeah.
It's indeed really important also to see that there is some
change in, in how we educate and and raise our children.
I don't have any children ourselves myself, but it's, I
think it does start there, making, making the changes
starts there. And then indeed there's a
pipeline issue that also has to be solved.
So I was also wondering about one thing you said early on you
wanted to use venture capital to change this.
Why? Why use something that at least
I consider to be broken and part of the cause?
Yeah, no, that's a great question.
And I'm, I don't know that I've actually made this link before
so overtly, but I will say it really roots back to maybe some
core beliefs I hold. And they are illustrated by my
work coming out of college. Remember I mentioned I was
working for a boutique, It was a startup boutique consulting
firm. And at core of what we did was
designing pay systems for the executive group, primarily pay
systems that focus them on the key drivers of success.
So what you can pull out from this is I'm actually a firm
believer that money is a great carrot to get people to focus
and do what you want them to do. Right.
So as an incentive, I'm not arguing that it doesn't work,
but I'm just right. And so, so, so if we hold that
true and then we say there is a great deal of money to be made
in venture. Let us use that capacity, that
ability to again, help people understand the value here,
because what statistics we haven't talked about yet is that
female founders tend to outperform.
They are much more capital efficient.
They exit in faster right and they and their return on the
investment is much higher. So it's all about aligning and
focusing the vision on where the money is.
You know, show me the money is is a great way to distill it.
Yeah, so that's a great bridge to the to the movie.
Show her the money. Maybe for people who haven't
seen it or haven't read the book, there's a book I think.
There's a book that came out, I believe it was July 15th.
It's in hardback. And what paperback recently came
out? We've been on the number one
bestseller list at Amazon. It's incredible.
Yeah. So for those who haven't read
book or seen a movie, what is it about?
What is it? Well.
Except for wonderful female founders and their investors,
actually. What is it about?
And I'll tell you first what the book is about and then I'll tell
you what the movie is about because they're slightly
different. So the book is, I believe it's
40 chapters. And each chapter is the story of
an individual who is affiliated with the film, either as a
producer or a cast member. And then the idea is in in
reading these stories for someone who wants to get
involved, you will recognize the paths to getting involved are
varied. There's no one path, there's no
right path. And that all of our past
experiences are important. And by the way, I think so then
just many of the stories are highly inspiring and funny and,
and, and give you moments of, of lovely learning and reflection.
So that's what the book is about all wrapped up in the idea of
let us inspire you. And if you pull to the film, I
talk about it and in fact a few different ways.
And I'm not sure what you heard me talk about the night at in
Rotterdam. The film is really about
inviting people in and especially women, helping them
invite them into this world of venture, of start up, investing
in a way that is approachable, that is enjoyable, entertaining
and inspiring. Because the film follows 4
founders. It follows their journeys and
the journeys, as I had mentioned earlier, they have peaks and
valleys and, and, and you know, when the same day you might go
from a peak valley a few different times.
And this continues for years. And, and the film actually does
follow a longitudinally, I think about six months, 6 to 12 months
of the four different founders. And it intersects then with two
venture capital firms, ours and another.
And it includes also a few Angel investors.
And so we're really trying to give a, a beautiful storytelling
of what goes on in the space because that isn't something
that most people are Privy to. And for founders, it is a such a
like a hits their heart. They see themselves in the film
and for others that it allows them to understand, hey,
actually, I could be doing this and I could be doing it as an
investor, but maybe that's not right for me.
I could be doing it as an ecosystem builder.
Maybe I'm just going to be someone who talks about this to
all my friends, right? But there's a lot of ways to
activate. And this I've talked about all
very specifically, it's related to Venture, but what I also like
to talk about with this film is it goes a level higher.
You can view it as a level higher to say anything's
possible, just remove your own self limiting beliefs.
And that for me is the strongest message of this film as you see
when you see it. It's the idea of like I can do
that. Yeah.
But also I can invest in that because there were two two
founders. I want to pick out that that I
remember 1 is Jasmine Jones. She produces prosthetic bras.
So for people who have had breast cancer, for instance, or
had to have breast removed, that they can have bras that
actually, well give them back part of their identity.
And the order is Marion Leitner, who had an idea where I was at
first when I first saw it, like, OK, how does this work?
It's luxury wines in Cannes. And it only the the quarter
literally only dropped with me when she told that she was had
been selling to Southwest Airlines, which is a big US
airline. And I was like, oh, wait a
minute. Yeah, they are.
It's about weight. And then all of a sudden, a can
of wine makes a lot of sense. So going back to the limiting
beliefs, what are the limiting beliefs that holds male
investors back from investing in those two ideas?
Yes, I'm going to tackle them differently or so limiting
beliefs for male investors in general, not to go into female
spaces. I would say I don't know that it
starts with eliminating belief, but it starts with a lack of
lack of knowledge. And remember at the beginning we
had talked about those who are best served to solve a problem
are those who experience it. I would say investors are also
best served investing in spaces they know a lot about, right?
You should you should have a good deal of knowledge,
experience, understanding and and usually interest fuels that
that not that need to like dig and to understand more.
And so I would say for many of the of the business solutions
that are affecting her, I feel that just like men just don't
understand, they just don't know.
Do I fault them for it? A little bit, but not a lot.
I'm like, you have to invest in what interests you and what you
know. Well, what I can fault them on
is not taking a moment to understand how large of a market
this is. Many of these solutions are in
right and as a as a venture investor, you want to be
investing in spaces that are very large and that are growing.
That's very important to ensure that you can you can model out
the appropriate returns. And so the self limiting belief
is that I would say that they're guilty of is not taking the
moment to be curious, not taking the moment to to broaden their
aperture and, and, and not not wanting to perhaps bring in
other voices on their in their investment committees, on their
diligence teams and to trust them when they are being told,
hey, wait a second, this is, this is a really lucrative
market. And I will say I have been
seeing more and more that there are traditional male investors
who are coming into this space. And you know, I think of them as
being very smart. Yeah, it's still 50% of the
population. Yeah, 50% of the population with
a with a pent up demand and need for solutions that will be
instrumental in improving health outcomes, for example, for half
the world's population. And in many of those solutions,
if they're focused on her health, particularly in in
maternity, right. And during pregnancy, you really
then are affecting 100% of the population.
Indeed. Yeah.
So, so was there during the the I think six months or so were it
the the film spends about six months of developments.
Was there a specific moment that you remember while shooting the
movie, creating the scenes that you fought like, OK, and This is
why I'm doing the the work that I'm doing.
This is why I made this movie. Well, that's such a good
question. No one's asked that yet.
I would say in full honesty, while we are filming the movie,
working on the movie, I do sit with a skeptic cat a little bit
too long. I was had a foot in both doors
of like, is this film actually going to ever get made right?
So I think the during the the production of it, I might not
have had that moment of like the big light bulb.
At our premiere in September of 23, we premiered at the Women's
International Film Festival in Philadelphia opening night.
I had a dear friend. Yeah.
So it was really great. We had a plum position.
I had a dear friend from the Netherlands was visiting me.
And so she attended the the premiere with me and it was
almost immediately after the film, it's finished and they're
rolling their credits. And she looked at me and and
exclaimed. She said, I've never really
thought that I could be doing this with my money, with my
investments. And I thought, bam, that's
exactly what we want. And so for me, that was a little
bit of a different answer. I'm answering slightly
differently than you asked me, but like that idea of this.
Is why we're doing this is to help people open their their
aperture, open their thinking about what can be done.
Yeah, Yeah, it's it. I think that the film is very
powerful in that sense. A from from showing, let's say
business cases that are I think don't traditionally go through
VC or even Angel investing at all.
And also, yeah, really inspiring people like, hey, it can just be
you as a restaurant owner or I think there's a owner of a chain
of restaurants or franchise holder in in there or, or a
woman who is just runs into, let's say a larger paycheck who
then decides to do something meaningful with your money to
really to use to, yeah, to use capital to make the change.
Purpose. Yeah, with purpose.
And that then there have been studies done that women
investors tend to want, we tend to look for purpose and
fulfillment, right? And I would say as someone who's
running a venture capital fund, right, like I'm investing to
make money for profit with purpose attached.
And what's lovely that I can point to is there are a number
of studies that show when you combine purpose with profit,
your profit tends to in fact be greater.
So there. And because that's one of the
limiting beliefs we hear often that if you invest for purpose
that you are there for accepting concessionary lower than
expected returns and that's not true.
Now that that's that's a bit in the DT myth also that you have
here and that you even getting comments on social media.
Oh yeah. But you're doing it for the
impact. So why are you not doing it for
free? Yeah.
And I would say, and I really dislike the word impact by the
way, because all investments have impact, everything we do
has. Impact.
And so the question is, are you aware of the impact and is the
impact positive or negative and from whose point of view?
Yeah. So it's more about purpose and
then it is about impact. Yeah.
And I would say intention, like I know we are very intentional
and deliberate at Emmeline. Yeah, so how about Emmeline?
Because you focus on her overall health, right?
Maybe explain what her overall health falls into and what it
includes and excludes. Sure.
And and I'm going to present it in two different ways to start
because I know, you know, we all, we're all different types
of thinkers. So I hope it lands as people are
listening. They're like, oh, I like it that
way. And some people will like it a
different way. But I often say we invest in her
overall health, where health is a broadened definition to
include her physical health, her mental health, her financial
health, and her environmental health.
So those core pillars of her health keep her truly whole and
healthy and able to accelerate. Another way to think about it is
we invest to manage her health, build her wealth, and help her
live in a cleaner and safer world.
And so, and if you really want to distill it very like chop,
chop, chop, I could say we invest in femtech, fintech and
food tech, right? That's, that's a, that's a very
condensed distillation because it's a little bit broader than
that, but I like the three FS and, and that helps people,
right? And So what does it mean?
So we are looking for solutions that are going to support her
exclusively, differently and disproportionately.
And those terms are often used for medical conditions because
you can now think about pregnancy and menopause, let's
say, are medical conditions that she exclusively experiences.
Men don't experience that, right.
And then you have differently and disproportionately women
disproportionately experience are affected by Alzheimer's.
I think it's like a rate of 2 to one.
I mean it's a huge number. So we're curious about those
solutions that are are supporting her there differently
would be cardiology. So how a female presents with
with her heart conditions is different than a male.
And so again, there need to be more studies because your
listeners should know that women have not been involved in
medical testing until I believe most recently, I believe that
began and I double checked me on this, but only as recent as 15
to 20 years ago. Yeah, that that actually that
coincides with where that matches with what a previous
guest told me that when she was studying, which is like 20-30
years ago, most of the Lab Rats were still male to make sure
that even in the Lab Rats, they could exclude all the hormonal
effects. Which has is one of our major
effects across a woman's life are hormones, right?
Strongly and consistently. So, so it's only recent studies
that include female bodies in in the study work to really
understand those differences and, and how medicines are
treated and, and therapies and, and advice, right.
And so again, looking at financial and environmental
health, we apply that same lens when we're thinking about the
solution, the startups that we're looking at.
I'm going to give you an example of a financial health company
that we're invested in the beans.
It is a financial budgeting app that is offered through
employers and is specifically targeted to healthcare and into
medical healthcare with a lot of nurses, teachers, right?
Like those employee groups, they're predominantly female.
So again, so we're looking in ways like men are going to use
it too. Of course they're going to use
it, but the we're starting in groups that is highly female.
So we're going to help her. More OK, do you also.
Sorry. Do you also invest in in
companies who do it match with the purpose but who have a male
founder? So I didn't say, so thank you.
Before I go, then we're looking at seed stage, which is an
earlier stage company. They have a product, they have
some revenues, they're working on their product market fit by
virtue of the types of of companies or solutions that
we're trying to solve, it is almost always a byproduct that
there will that there will be a female on the founding team.
So can there also be a male on the founding team?
Absolutely. Do we want strong female
representation? Absolutely.
Yeah, but it's not actually women only.
Not women only, no. So we, a number of our our
startups have men on the founding teams as well.
Because truly, diversity goes both ways.
Yeah. So what kind of founders are you
you most excited to back? So it's it's it's seat that that
is one thing. It's it's either mixed or female
founded. What else?
I'm looking for, if I could distill it in a few words, who
I'm looking for. I'm looking for someone who was
who has intimate knowledge of the problem she's solving.
Right, Because I want it because and I want them to know the
problem inside and out and to be able to iterate on the solutions
because the solutions we see at pre seed and seed stage are
going to change because they're and here's like the second
aspect, I want a founder who's going to be curious and who's
going to be doing a good deal of hypothesis testing, get
gathering new knowledge, bringing that back in right into
the system. So it is an iterative process.
If they are are if they are both curious and aware of the
problem, they are going to be finding the correct solution
that the market wants to pull. And so that requires a good deal
of another way to say it is a strong back and an open heart,
right firm and convictions and yet open to receiving new
information and processing it and and adding it into the
system. Strong about to what and why,
and soft and how. Yeah, yeah.
And I'm trying to think if there's anything more.
I've been playing around with a few other variables that I look
for. I'm just going to keep those to
the side now, but I am, I try and embody what I'm looking for,
right? Like I am iterative, constantly
learning, I joke around with people.
I'm like, I'm my own LLM basically like just keep giving
me data and I'm going to be readjusting and, and, and
expanding my knowledge. And of course, like integrity,
it is a long relationship that we hold together.
So we need to be able to trust one another and really feel
like, hey, we're in it together for the long haul.
Yeah, what? What does integrity mean?
How does it sort of Yeah manifest?
I would say for me, it's it's being open, it's being clear,
it's having the hard conversations when you need to.
It's leaving ego aside and it's just, and it's and trust is part
of that, right? Last question on you as an
investor, you spent your time between the US and Europe.
What are the differences in how you see that women founders are
supported or not supported by the ecosystem?
Yeah. I'm not an expert in the
European ecosystem and one thing Dirk and we didn't talk about is
with at Emeline we're investing only in US based companies with
our fund one. And my presence in Europe has to
do more with personal interest and having lived here and and
being a frequent visitor so and in wanting to intersect and use
my learnings from the US. So how are female founders?
How is it different for her in Europe than in the USI would say
there's, it's maybe more difficult in Europe.
So there are fewer what I there are fewer funds like ours in
Europe that are really very have that gender lens overlay with
the PC. They definitely exist.
There's some incredible ones out there in the Netherlands for
sure, and in the UK and I in France as well and across the,
the continent, right. I believe the number in the US
is, is much greater. We've been around for longer and
the capital that we control is larger, so more access.
Is, is, is it also, yeah, maybe not for women per SE, but also
the fragmentation of the market. The problem because the US is,
is 1 big market. In the end, if you're FDA
approved, you're FDA approved. You can sell pretty much
everywhere, yeah, barring some. State yes for.
Sure, but in Europe there's legislation that is different
from one country to the next, even though we're pretending to
be a union. Yes, Now that's a great point.
I would say yes, that is one of the difficulties as well and
particularly in healthcare because of the systems are
different, right. Yeah.
So that's that, and also. Yeah.
Just that and also block female health solutions.
I would say it just really depends what's the greatest
answer. In VC it depends, but it depends
on if it's one that needs approval or not, how the
reimbursement works, how the payment works for its.
Yeah, because that that is going to indeed be different from one
country to the next and then it's becomes an issue.
So I was wondering if you meet a founder maybe going back to the
ideal founder profile, but not through profile, but to to the
cases that you invest in. What are you looking for in
pitch tax? Are there are there specific
things other than the that that of course it needs to be seed?
Right. And US.
Yes, so thank you for that. So seen US based it has to
somehow fit with our investment mandate of in those sectors that
help her manage her health, build her wealth and live in a
cleaner and safer world, right. So those to start with, but the
actual pitch deck a few thoughts.
One is to remember that the pitch deck is to pique my
curiosity and interest to say I wanted.
I want to set up a call with you, right?
So there needs to be enough in there to get me excited and not
so much that I get lost or bored or feel like I have enough
information I don't need to talk to you.
So it, it's this delicate balance I am looking for the
ability to, to communicate the problem in the solution
concisely and to quickly turn and explain to me how, how I as
a, as AGP of a fund, be able to make money off of this
investment for our fund, which is what my job is.
And so, and I say those three things very deliberately.
I find often that the problem in pitch decks gets too much
attention. Personally, I'm like, I need one
page, maybe 2. That's all like hit me top
level. What the problem is.
I want to quickly understand what the solution is, but I also
want to understand that the founder.
And I think This is why I really want to see this, that the
founder understands what the relationship is and what my job
is because I definitely want to improve health outcomes from all
for all. That's my purpose.
The profit is still where I really need to focus.
And so if you can help me with that to understand quickly in
your pitch deck, then I like not only does it help me want to say
yes, but it helps me learn a little bit more about you that
you understand the system that you're in.
OK. So if I can distill a tip from
this also is it's also for founders to really understand
who the investor is, who the and how he or she thinks what he or
she needs from you as a founder to be successful and to sell the
investment to LP's, to stakeholders, to whoever.
And I and I believe in Rotterdam, I spoke about this,
I'll say it again. There are so many great
businesses ideas out there and so many wonderful ones, right,
that will and make money for the founder and can have a great
impact in the world and can improve health outcomes or
wealth outcomes for many. That is all true.
It is also true that in that in that large subset of companies
that I've just mentioned, not all of those are made for not
all of those should take venture dollars.
Right. And so understanding that is
also important for a founder to say what is the best type of
capital for me and for my company and how I want to build
my company. And so it seems like Venture has
become such a like a coveted sexy, you know, capital
allocation for founders and it and it works really well for
some, but not for all. So what?
What makes a proposal venture ready?
A proposal or a. Business, yeah.
Well, every, every VC is going to have a different answer,
right. But I would say one thing that
we can align on is you need to see that the business can grow
so that and to grow quickly. So it is not something of a slow
build over time business that we're looking for, but we're
looking for let's say triple and double 300, two 100% revenue
growth in the first few years. Yeah, and that doesn't need to
lead to profit yet, I suppose, not in the few first few years.
Not in the first few years, but now since 2021.
Investors are leaning back more on fundamentals and the idea of
growth at all costs is incorrect.
There needs to be a growth with a path towards profitability.
Yeah, yeah. Ultimately the the money has to
come out somewhere, yes, Because otherwise there's, if there's no
profit, there's no dividend, there's no payout, there's no
right. You're just going to go quicker
into debt. Yeah, and burn quicker.
Yeah. So and here, yeah.
And so, and I'll just, and things that current trends I've
been seeing is CPG is something that VCs are less and less
inclined to invest in and apps are less and less an area focus
where they were maybe five years ago still very hot.
But now the idea is you really need something much larger like
a like a like an actual company or a platform that might
incorporate the app. But you have to think bigger,
which I'm going to say that term one more time because there are
a few things when we think about limiting beliefs is to recognize
that particularly women. It's how we're acculturated.
I'm going to say that is that we're, we're not conditioned to
think big and to dream big. And I'm going to give an example
differently. I was talking to someone about a
she was a founder of a of a sports, a startup focused in the
sports arena and talking about thinking about the individual
athlete. But then it was really helpful
to be talking. I was talking to a guy and he
reminded me, well, like, why don't we talk about teams?
Why don't we talk? About leagues.
Right, and it was even. And I find myself hitting my
head on this all the time too and reminding myself think
larger, think bigger and not and to grow your to grow the expand
your idea of what is possible. Is that helpful?
Yeah, it is. How can women, how can female
founders change that perspective to to to look at it from bigger
lands? So if they're going to be
solving problem A right and I'm going to, I want to give a
concrete example. I hope this is helpful.
I have a founder who's solving for working on an app that is
looking at hormones in a specific period of time for a
woman, right. I actually have a few different
companies that I'm looking at that are doing this along
stages. I've also met someone who's
looking to understand hormones at large across her entire life
stage. OK.
And so for me, that's just, it's a different orientation.
I like the latter more than the former.
Do you put them together? Like, do you talk to them?
Like, hey, you're looking at this from different angles.
Yeah, some of them, yeah, it's a great question.
Some of them I do. I always, I always double opt
in. By the way, I'm like, This is
why I think you might want to talk to this person.
And here's the reason why you might and, and for me, it's it's
about understanding that everyone can get to a better,
like Pareto optimal is an economic term that I learned
long ago. And the idea is to put everyone
into a better position without decreasing anyone's position.
So if I feel that's possible, I will certainly make
introductions and and and think about ways that they can work
together for sure. Yeah.
So I want to go back to all the way to the beginning.
OK. Of the conversation, you
mentioned that you were a stay at home mom.
Yes. Let's say there are women
listening who are currently stay at home, mom or otherwise on the
sideline of working life. 2 questions.
One is, I heard you say in another podcast that you really
did a lot on upskilling yourself, so maybe help
understand why this is important to to obscure and stay relevant.
Yeah, in that period. Yes.
And I'm going to say it in two different ways.
And thank you, dear John, for bringing that up, because I do
think it's an important phase of my life And I, I have worked
hard to reframe it in my own head, right, Because I know that
or I feel that culture has positioned the stay at home mom
experience, despite saying, oh, it's so worthy, it's so
admirable, so noble, blah, blah, blah.
There's it's still viewed as a less than intellectually, I
don't know, demanding time. And I'm not saying that exactly
correct. But there are some issues still
with the, with the term a stay at home mom, some negative
issues associated with it. And so one I want to remind
anyone who's in that position you're in, because I know for me
it was true. I ended up getting an education
in areas that I wouldn't have gotten it had I stayed as a
corporate person, right? As a corporate person, there are
other skill sets that are natural and inherent in that
role that are very specific to that role that you don't get
elsewhere just by being a mom. Like, I have to learn how to
nurture one. It's not.
I was, and I don't know if you've heard this before, I was
voted least likely to become a mother.
So yeah, I mean, it's for me, it's such a joke, but I'd like
to throw it out there is to show the contrast.
Like this wasn't the natural state for me.
I had to learn a lot and I mean, frankly, I'd sort of learn how
to cook. I like do a lot of the kind of
things that were expected of that role.
And at the same time I'm like, OK, this is my role.
I'm going to figure it out. So that one is understanding
that there are things that you do there that you don't get,
they are learning. And then the relevant piece is
thinking about, well, if you do want to intersect back into a
professional role, corporate role there, that world is
learning, changing, evolving rapidly.
And so when you left, it was at one stage, if you want to go
back in, you need, it's incumbent upon you to, to keep
track of those learnings and, and the technologies, right,
Like technology is now with AI, like you can do that now as a
stay at home mom, you can spend some time learning it.
And there's enough now that we've have so much virtual
learning that would suggest to anyone to, you know, go find
some courses to take online. I did that.
And to understand in your stay at home caregiver role or, you
know, pause or whatever, I saw rules that were fun, that were
interesting, that were fulfilling, and where I was
doing things that I knew I could tangibly say, Oh yeah, that that
actually is good for me. In my expanded, I don't know if
you want to think about your professional toolkit, but I
taught, I think I mentioned I taught art on a volunteer basis
for kindergarten to 8th grade. One of the reasons is because I
love art history. It was great.
I got to learn about it, but also I got into classrooms where
I had to speak public speak like no one likes to public speak
really. I certainly didn't and I still
don't love it, but I know it's part of what I do.
And so I for eight years, a few times a year would be in
classrooms. And if you want to think about
terrifying, it's being in an eighth grade classroom with
students right on a topic that they don't really care about and
you're the volunteer teacher, you better make that
presentation engaging and interesting.
So you learn, you Start learning little tricks.
I mean, I think back to that. That was a great, just such a
great experience for me. And I also would once or twice a
school year teach to the adults who were going to go out into
the other classrooms. So just give me some great
experiences. I also, in another role, wrote a
newsletter for three years. Every week I would write a
condensed newsletter for all the parents in the high school.
So I never used to like to write, by the way.
So now I had to do it every single week, write something.
And it was a hot, like, man, that yeah, go ahead.
Did you did you actually pick those responsibilities yourself?
Like, hey, this is an area where I want slash need to grow, so
I'm going to pick those even though I well, quote UN quote
dislike it. You know, that's a great
question because I can history of the, you know, a hindsight is
2020. I can say absolutely I did.
Dear John. And I'm not sure that it was so
targeted. I'm not going to I'm not going
to tout my horn that I was so smart, but I definitely was
seeking roles that seemed that there was a challenge in them.
So. So yeah.
But I look back and I'm like, OK, every week I had to write a
newsletter and it was to a 400 parents who were highly
educated, highly involved. Like it was a beer group where I
thought, OK, I don't want to goof up beer.
No. No.
And I think it's really powerful that you you actually did look
for, let's say, a bit more challenging things.
And I think it's also great advice to to women are who are
currently struggling to maybe find a purpose.
Yeah, in your life, in, in, in the intermediate while also
raising children because it is a busy job.
And I think it should be paid in some shape, way, shape or form
beyond let's say the the usual allowance for children and for
for groceries, etcetera. Yeah, here in Durkan, I want to
add this in. And I also did, I was the the
party mom, the classroom mom. I was the lice patrol mom
because in Holland at that time, like once a month, I'd go and
I'd with a few other moms and we'd go through the hair of
kids. All those experiences teach you
something and and you you build a bond, a community with your
other parents. I would say fine that if you're
a stay at home mom, which is kind of like a founder by the
way, you're you're only a lot. You got, you know, angry, angry
employee, you know, your children and get some difficult
troops around you, highs and lows all day long.
So it's not too dissimilar from being a founder.
So find those other rolls and hats to wear that that bring you
the joy and happiness and are doing things that you feel are
expanding your one lived experience, right?
Because at the end of the day, and that's there's this poem, I
can't remember the name Mary, I think, but like we're all living
this one wild, crazy life. Like, how do you want to do it?
And I and I want to, you know, I'm, I want it all I want, I
want to try lots of different things.
Cool. So I want to shift gears.
Fast forward to 2032. When?
Women get more than a fair share of the capital, Yeah.
What do you hope the the venture capital ecosystem looks like
then, or what? Let me rephrase that.
How has the venture capital ecosystem changed?
I would say how the SO isn't that great 2032 I was trying to
understand how you chose that date, but I'm wondering did you
choose it also because the. I I started my podcast in 2022
and then the first one of the first guests said by 2032.
So into in 10 years there has to be a non issue and by extension
your podcast will be then be irrelevant.
Exactly. So that's the start of.
Yes, OK. And I'm also thinking because
the there are many reports, let's say by 2032 thirds of all
wealth will be held by women globally.
So that's a big deal, right? And venture capital is going to
look like what society, I hope looks like, right?
That we look at every individual as an individual and that
everyone brings his and her full self forward.
And it's it's just not talked about anymore, right, That you
have men, women investing equally across all spaces that
and here is in 2032. Where are we right now?
We're in 25 S in seven years when I really hope I in seven
years that we are going to have some really big exits in the
investments that Emmeline and firms like Emmeline are making
right now. Yeah, how how are exits playing
into, let's say, the positive image for investing in in women?
Oh. Yeah, really.
Well, no, lots of like the, the, the data are coming in that this
investing in the space really does pay off in the dollars and
cents. Yeah.
Because I think in the end it is about the dollars in yeah.
And let's just say in the EUR as.
Well, in the EUR, but yeah, so final question from my side, I'm
building a tool that connects female founders and investors
using AI. From your perspective, what is
the most important ingredient to make that tool empower female
founders and investors? So you're you're building, if
you will, like a matching agent. Yeah, yeah.
I, I call it a funding coach, but because it also coaches to
the female founder on their pitch decks and they're, let's
say they're the pitches that they do.
So basically they can upload their pitch deck or their pitch
and then they get feedback. But in the end, I also want to
make it connect. Yeah, to specific investors.
Well, here, and I'm not sure and I'm going to say this is what's
popped to the top of my head. This is a relationship business.
It is long term. And so I would say what's most
important for your tool is to ensure that all the individuals
on the platform, both founders and investors, don't conform to
a certain notion, but are allowed to actually show their
individuality. Because you do want the, the
matches have to be true. And to have a true match, you
need to present your true self, right?
Because then another thing, and it's for the founders in the
room who are listening, It is most important, like all the
advice you're going to hear from me, from Dirk Young, from
others, it is true. What is also true is you know
best who you are and what you want and what your what is best
for your startup. And so keep that in mind as you
present yourself because that energy is going to attract the
right money. And if if you're not attracting
certain certain other investors, you should be thankful because
they're not the right ones for you if you are presenting your
truest energy right. And I think it's hard from both
sides to recognize that to just at some point just walk away and
say like, this isn't right as much as I think it should be, it
isn't. And my better match is somewhere
elsewhere. Yeah, so dare to say no and walk
away. Yeah, yeah, as I'll tell you and
one of my advisors recently said, and I've read this in
other ways too, right, getting to a no quickly is really very
helpful for everyone. Yeah, because I at least, you
know, not to spend time with that person.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, yeah. So that's also great advice on
how to handle rejections, I think.
Yeah. So as in, thanks very much.
Really appreciate this, this conversation.
If people want to learn more about you, about Emmeline and of
course, the movie and the book, show her the money.
Where do you want to send them? I think the best and easiest
place would be LinkedIn. So yeah, thank you.
And I'm the only Azine Ratson. Then all the bake.
To my knowledge, I'm the only one who holds all four of those
names. Combination of my Persian
background and my Dutch assumed background.
So thank you. And dear Count, it's really been
great. A pleasure.
Thank you for your questions and for your thoughtfulness and for
truly getting me to think about a few things that I hadn't
thought about before. So thank you.
OK, well, that's that's cool to hear.
So Azin Ratzen from Arabic. Thanks very much for the
conversation. Listeners.
Thank you very much for listening.
And until the next episode, as always, keep being awesome.
Well, that's a wrap for episode 123 of Women Disrupting Tech
with Azine Ratzen von Allenberg titled How showing her the money
Changes Venture Capital Azine. And I hope that you found our
conversation as engaging and inspiring as we intended it to
be. And if you have any questions
for Azine, please share them in the comments on Spotify, Apple,
or YouTube. I'll make sure you'll receive an
answer when you want to connect with ASIN or learn more about
Emmeline Ventures or find out where you can watch the movie,
Show her the money. Please check out the links in
the show notes. And as usual, you can find the
show notes at Women Disrupting Tactile Blog.
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episode, and until then, as always, keep being awesome.