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Everyone and welcome to another 
episode of the Unfiltered Rise 

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and Hellfire Agency for our 
Blood Atonement exclusive. 

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We are here to bring you the 
fire and heat and also the 

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disgusting and dangerous. 
So here we are today and we are 

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going to be discussing one of 
the best little Mormons, Ted 

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Bundy. 
How you doing? 

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I'm doing OK, better than Ted 
Bundy. 

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I don't. 
Know yes. 

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Existential suffering is over, 
but yeah, sooner than. 

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Forever. 
Sounds like forever in the fire 

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to me, but who knows? 
We never know afterward, right? 

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Maybe he said. 
Sorry, the baby. 

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We at the Hellfire Agency don't 
think hell sounds so bad. 

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Unless, unless you did something
like Ted Bundy. 

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Yeah, creepy, creepy. 
But you know, I don't know how 

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you would be if you had a 
grandpa dad and a grandma mom 

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and your sister mom. 
And it gets real hairy, so. 

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You know so many things about 
Ted Bundy's like what made Ted 

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Bundy. 
Ted Bundy is so fascinating. 

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I got turned on to this as a 
Mormon kid When I saw I was, I 

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went to a church event put on by
Cleon Skousen. 

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I think we we talked about this 
maybe past and he was, you know,

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he was the chief of police in 
Salt Lake City briefly or but 

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not during the Ted Bundy time, 
but he was like obsessed with 

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Bundy. 
And he, he had a, he showed us 

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the James C Dobson interview 
that was taken the night before 

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Bundy was executed. 
And I don't know if you've seen 

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that, but it is trash. 
I mean, Bundy was a Bundy was a 

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malignant narcissist. 
If anybody was, he manipulated 

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other people and he was 
desperate to get another state 

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of execution from the Florida 
governor at the time. 

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And he was literally hours away 
during the interview. 

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The lights flickered during the 
interview and that was them 

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testing the electric chair to to
electrocute him in the morning. 

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OK, it's ready. 
And they're like, it's good, 

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Ted. 
Don't worry, buddy, we got you. 

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Got the wet, got the wet sponge.
It's all good. 

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We're going. 
We're going to get you good. 

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And he's in there in the prison,
and he's given this interview 

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with James C Dobson. 
James C Dobson. 

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If you do, you know who James C 
Dobson is. 

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I know he had. 
Wasn't he the reporter that kept

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going in and trying to see him? 
Was that the the one? 

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No, No. 
No, James C Dobson was a pastor,

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an evangelical pastor, and he 
was the, he was the man who ran 

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Focus on the Family, which was 
the organization tied to the 

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Mormon Church, by the way. 
And but you know, he was not 

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happy. 
I mean, he as an evangelical 

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pastor, he didn't love the fact 
that he was so closely tied to 

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Mormons, but he needed their 
money. 

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So he take and so but anyways, 
he's so he's there basically. 

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So Ted Bundy's like, this is the
he was like the most influential

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preacher, maybe apart from old 
what's his bucket? 

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Billy Graham at the time. 
Oh yeah. 

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And he figures this guy's going 
to call the president or he's 

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going to call the Florida 
governor. 

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He's going to get here, release 
or get me at least a stay and 

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nothing do him. 
He used him, got his last. 

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You know, God is basically his 
last confession where he comes 

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out and says, you know, I don't 
expect anybody to believe this, 

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but I've made my peace with 
Christ and Jesus has saved me. 

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I have this. 
I have him in my heart and I 

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know that he's forgiven me. 
And he does this whole 

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rigmarole. 
And then he says, look, I there 

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was no Ted Bundy that would you 
would have ever heard of if it 

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weren't for detective magazine 
detective novels, gory detective

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novels and porn magazines I took
out of my neighbor's trash cans 

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when I was a kid wandering 
around town. 

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And he's like, if it weren't for
pornography and detective 

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novels, I never would have done 
these violent sexual things. 

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And it's like, you look into his
actual history and it's like, 

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no, Ted. 
First of all, that's not 

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consistent with any known 
science about people who do what

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Ted Bundy did. 
Or his childhood. 

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Yeah, like the weird stuff. 
I won't ruin it because you 

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might say it so. 
Well, you, you alluded to. 

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OK, so he's he was born in a in 
a home for unwed mothers and to 

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a teenage girl who he believed 
was his mother and or was his 

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sister until he was older. 
And she and then he lived with 

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her parents, who he believed 
were his parents, even though 

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they were way too old. 
And his grandpa, his grandpa was

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a mean drunk and used to hit him
and and one day his sister 

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Louise runs off with a cook in 
the army named Bundy. 

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And she takes him with her and 
they move out to Washington and 

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he has a better life, at least 
there. 

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But all throughout his teenage 
years, he was a kleptomaniac. 

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And that's where we see things 
that are consistent with the 

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rest of Ted Bundy's behaviors 
and his crimes. 

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He would total. 
Psychopath. 

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Yeah. 
We had this he had this itch to 

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buck authority and to make 
people to take something that 

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you weren't allowed to have. 
And how much of that had to do 

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with his being raised in a 
family where he thought that his

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mother was his sister, who 
knows? 

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But it it doesn't escape notice 
that his mother was a brunette 

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with long hair and was a 
teenager when he was growing up,

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and he mainly killed teenage 
girls with brown hair. 

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Well, and then Grandpa, good old
grandpa, there's a lot of 

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speculation. 
Grandpa was literally Grandpa 

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Dad 'cause there was a lot of 
speculation that not only he 

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abused him physically, but 
possibly sexually. 

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He also said that grandpa had a 
lot of that pornography and a 

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habit of being really violent 
with the pornography he chose. 

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And personally, a lot of people 
think like and I don't know, but

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they say that possibly grandpa 
was was daddy O. 

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Was Dad? 
Yeah, I don't know. 

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That's that's, I don't know 
about that, but I mean it's. 

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Yeah, psychopathy when you get 
like too interbred related. 

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Like they've done a lot of 
studies with the Muslim culture 

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where they intermarry and 
whatnot, but apparently violence

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is one thing that goes extremely
high when you intermarry too 

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closely genetically. 
This is actual studies, like not

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my thoughts about it or 
anything. 

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So kind of interesting possible,
but who knows. 

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Only Ted. 
Ted and Grandpa Dad. 

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When they say that. 
Yeah. 

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They say the empathy develops in
the brain mostly during during 

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these earliest years, like I 
think before the age of like 3 

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or 4, I think. 
And so they say that the less 

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time that children, small 
children, toddlers have to play 

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and the more time they spent in 
fear for their lives is the less

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is the less development they get
towards understanding and seeing

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themselves and other people. 
So how much of it is genetics, 

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how much of it is upbringing? 
How much is nature, How much is 

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nurture? 
I don't think we'll ever know, 

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but some. 
But one thing's for sure, I 

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don't buy for a second that it 
was that he bred the gory 

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detective novels and looked at 
porn, but that but he knew James

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C Dobson wanted to hear that, 
that James C Dobson because 

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James C Dobson one of those 
things was. 

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Yeah, he's a minister, so makes 
sense. 

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And and focus on the family. 
Their whole thing was they were 

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trying to kill cable television.
They were trying to cause cable 

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was starting to take off. 
And they're like, and he's like,

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this is the thing. 
You guys can judge me, but 

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you're raising little Ted 
Bundy's in your home by getting 

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HBO pumped into your into your 
television sets with cable 

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television. 
And James C Dobson gets his 

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moment to clutch his pearls. 
Oh my goodness. 

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I can't believe of all people, 
Ted Bundy's here to say it. 

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And he's like, yeah, give me my 
state of execution, man. 

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Save my life. 
I'll say whatever. 

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I'll say whatever you want, 
dude. 

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But I was curious, if you listen
to the to the tapes of Tim of 

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Ted Bundy being interrogated, 
you can hear a change in the 

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pitch of his voice when he gets 
to a point where they start to 

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where, you know, he stops 
spinning lies. 

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Because like at some point he's 
telling Pete, he's telling the 

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investigators everything they 
want to hear, everything they 

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want to hear. 
Hoping that they're going to go 

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back to their respective States 
and say he gave us everything we

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wanted on this girl and this 
girl. 

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But if we're going to get 
especially Utah, you know, he's 

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like, if we're going to get the 
rest on what happened with 

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Laura, Amy, what happened with 
Melissa Smith, what happened 

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with Debbie Kent? 
Debbie Kent was one of the ones 

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he basically confessed to. 
And if but if we're going to get

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the rest on Susan Curtis, if 
we're going to get the rest on, 

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on these girls in Utah during 
his string of murders in 1974 to

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1975, we got we got to get a 
stay of execution. 

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We don't have enough time. 
We ran out of time because we 

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only have like an hour. 
But as he as he starts to wane, 

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he starts to complain that he's 
getting tired. 

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And I don't know, I can. 
It's all starting to blur 

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together. 
You can hear in his voice 

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something that we hear from his 
2 two women who escaped him, 

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Rhonda Stapley and Carol Duranch
in Utah, who escaped from him. 

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And they both mentioned that he 
seemed really handsome. 

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He seemed really personable. 
He was very convincing. 

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And then you get him in the car.
Once he was in the boat, the 

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Volkswagen Beetle, and there's 
driving up the street and once 

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he starts getting towards the 
Canyon because he loved to kill 

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girls in the Canyon and and 
stash them in canyons, is when 

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he would start getting towards 
the Canyon, his demeanor would 

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suddenly turn dark and he would 
turn. 

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His whole behavior would 
suddenly turn. 

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And then in the interview where 
they interview him, they're 

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like, we really need you. 
Look, we don't want to pressure 

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you, but we want to make sure we
can if we could, if there's any 

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chance we can find the remains 
of these other girls, it would 

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bring a lot of peace to their 
families. 

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And it's like, yeah, I want to 
do that, but I just don't. 

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I just don't know. 
You know, I just, it's all 

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starting to blur together. 
And then they and they're like, 

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well, maybe pictures would help 
you. 

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He's like pictures? 
What kind of pictures? 

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And they're like, we have 
pictures of the girls and they 

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start pulling out pictures of 
the girl of girls in Utah. 

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And he starts going through it. 
And you can tell like, all of a 

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sudden, you know, this is 
Bundy's thing. 

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He he loved to relish in what he
had stolen from these people 

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and. 
And they say he would, he had 

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these crystal blue eyes, but 
when he would get like this that

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they would turn like dark. 
And I've seen photos of him in 

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color where they they look like 
black. 

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It's very creepy. 
I mean, I definitely, you know, 

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my take on things. 
I know yours is very different, 

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but I definitely believe in 
demonic possession straight up. 

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He's one that I think was 
possessed for sure at times, not

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always like in and out, right? 
Because nobody can live like 

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that. 
There's one. 

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There's something something else
that people have noted about him

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was that at times he looked like
a completely different person. 

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And even like that photo you 
haven't, we have in the 

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background here, even from that 
Colorado trial, you can see it. 

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There's moments where he looks 
like this, where he looks calm, 

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handsome, put together. 
And in the same, in the same day

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you got these other these other 
pictures where you could swear 

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that was a different person. 
He did. 

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He would change something about 
him physically look different 

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when he would turn angry and 
violent. 

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And the even his brother, you 
know, came out to Utah from 

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Washington because he had 
siblings and his brother adored 

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him. 
I mean, absolutely adored him. 

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He shies away from interviews 
now, but I heard one with him 

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and he said I came out to Utah 
and Ted and I went, went boating

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and, and like fishing and 
swimming. 

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And they, he had pictures of him
and Ted and they're like leaning

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on each other. 
And they're, they looked like 

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brothers. 
They looked like the dearest of 

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friends. 
And then he said we were driving

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back into Salt Lake, and 
suddenly his demeanor turned 

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dark and something changed in 
him. 

224
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,920
And he's like, And he looked 
disgusted. 

225
00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:41,520
That's the word all of them 
used. 

226
00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,560
Carol Durant used the same word.
Rhonda Stapley used the same 

227
00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:47,840
word. 
He'd suddenly looked disgusted. 

228
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,320
And you couldn't tell with what,
with himself, with the world, 

229
00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,240
with me. 
And it was like, what happened? 

230
00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,840
I just all of a sudden there's 
definitely something 

231
00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,320
neurological going on there. 
I can say because I'm not a 

232
00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:05,760
neurologist, neuroscientist, but
there was something that he 

233
00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,920
would get this urge. 
And he said that his brother 

234
00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:10,800
said they were driving back into
town. 

235
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,160
He stopped and made a phone call
and then he got back in the car 

236
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,600
and he said, I'm taking you to 
the airport, you're going home. 

237
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,160
And he said I was furious with 
him. 

238
00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,080
He's like, I was having a good 
time. 

239
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:25,200
They had this whole weekend and 
now you just could send me home 

240
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,280
and to and so he just he went 
and put him on a. 

241
00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:33,280
Probably saved his life, yeah. 
Quite possibly, I mean. 

242
00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,720
Yeah, I mean, I don't think he 
could control it. 

243
00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,160
You know that impulse you 
probably just thought, well, 

244
00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:41,520
this is my brother, got to get 
him out of here, you know? 

245
00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,800
There's definitely some kind of 
compulsive behavior to it. 

246
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:46,960
I mean, what is it? 
Is it OCD? 

247
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:51,040
Is it some kind of psychopathy? 
Is it some kind of who knows 

248
00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:52,880
what it what it is? 
I don't know that we have. 

249
00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:57,440
Personality, yeah, could be that
could be 100 different things. 

250
00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,520
And the fact that, well, the 
fact of some of the where we'll 

251
00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:04,600
go with some of this is, I mean,
it's definitely not anything any

252
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,400
normal quote, UN quote, normal 
person would do with the 

253
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,400
necrophiliac part and all of 
that. 

254
00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,480
It gets really disgusting. 
And I don't want to, like jump 

255
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,240
ahead, but when we get there, 
yeah. 

256
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,040
OK, so that's interesting 
because there's so many urban 

257
00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:24,800
legends around the necrophilia 
and stuff that Ted Ted would cut

258
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,680
off the girls heads or their 
hands and he would take them 

259
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,040
home and like put makeup on them
and things like this. 

260
00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,720
But there's never any evidence 
to produce to to show that. 

261
00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:38,520
And but there were books about 
his crimes where they talked 

262
00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,040
about this just as if it plainly
as if it happened. 

263
00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,680
I thought there was one where 
they found a piece of the girls 

264
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:49,000
skull in his apartment to help 
maybe identify that one just on 

265
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:54,560
one girl. 
And so as far as I know, I mean,

266
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,320
I've looked into this a lot, but
they, what they found in his 

267
00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:02,120
apartment were tickets to the 
school play where Debbie Kent 

268
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,360
was picked up. 
And she was, I mean, he, they 

269
00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,000
had him dead to rights on her. 
She he killed, no doubt about 

270
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:13,160
it. 
And she was a 17 year old girl 

271
00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:18,160
going up to school up here in 
Bountiful, which is also where 

272
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:23,200
one of his other victims we 
talked about the last time was 

273
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,520
picked up, was picked up in 
Provo. 

274
00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,320
But she was from Bountiful. 
She was from that same area, 

275
00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,920
which is curious. 
So it does say that a partial 

276
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:40,400
fragment of the skull of Linda 
Ann Healy was found in was found

277
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,120
in the place where Bunny dumped 
many of his bodies, I guess. 

278
00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:45,320
That's what it was not in the 
apartment. 

279
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,720
So they found remains of the 
girls, not at not at the 

280
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,800
apartment, but that was curious.
The apartment thing really comes

281
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,600
into play though, with this 
whole with this whole thing. 

282
00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,200
But I should to tell you that I 
got to tell you the whole story.

283
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:02,800
That's OK. 
That's why we're here. 

284
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,640
Right. 
So the curious thing about Ted 

285
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,440
Bundy in Utah is his 
relationship with Mormons. 

286
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:16,119
And so when Ted Bundy came to to
Utah in 1974, he had left a 

287
00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:21,079
girlfriend in Washington who was
a Jack Mormon girl from Ogden. 

288
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,680
And we talked about this before,
but you know, when he lived in 

289
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,080
Washington with this girlfriend,
you know, she was obviously a 

290
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,440
Jack Mormon because she wouldn't
have lived with her boyfriend if

291
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:37,000
she was a good Mormon girl. 
But he would leave her clues all

292
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,640
the time, almost like a 
taunting. 

293
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,800
He'd leave a knife out that 
looked suspicious and that she 

294
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,000
didn't recognize. 
And she would ask him, where did

295
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,880
you get that knife? 
And then why is it, you know, 

296
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,200
why is it in the basement and 
things like this? 

297
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,360
Or he would leave out the 
plaster of Paris that he had 

298
00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:57,000
used to make the arm cast that 
he would use on one of his 

299
00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,800
favorite roses, right. 
And she would ask him, why do 

300
00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,480
you have plaster of Paris? 
What is this about? 

301
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:07,360
And he would get, and he would 
like give her bad answers. 

302
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:09,720
You know, she would ask him 
what, what do you do at night? 

303
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,440
Because he would go, he would 
sleep in all day, barely show up

304
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,560
to work. 
And then he would go out at 

305
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,560
night and then come home and, 
you know, she'd be like, where, 

306
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,600
where have you been? 
And it's like, you're always 

307
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,560
interrogating me. 
You're always after me about 

308
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:26,680
what I do. 
I have friends, I have a life. 

309
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:28,720
And you know, you're not 
everything to me and blah, blah,

310
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,080
blah. 
And then she told she later 

311
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:36,200
tells the police the last year 
before he when he was going out 

312
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:41,280
to Utah, setting up to go to law
school in Utah, that his that 

313
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:43,880
the sexual relationship they had
turned violent. 

314
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:50,240
And he would tell her that he 
felt bad because he felt violent

315
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,000
impulses, that he wanted to hurt
her or wanted to hurt women, 

316
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,480
wanted to hurt people. 
And he would frighten her. 

317
00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,680
And he'd say, I would never 
actually do it. 

318
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,280
You know, it's just kind of a 
kinky thing right now. 

319
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:08,120
He's like, but, you know, 
sometimes I want to, I feel like

320
00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:11,560
I want to hurt somebody. 
And for you and Molly's sake, 

321
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,160
Molly's her little girl. 
For you and Molly's sake. 

322
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,080
I have to get out of the house. 
I have to get out here. 

323
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,560
She's like, well, OK, good. 
Great. 

324
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:25,400
Bye, bye, Bye Felicia. 
Then he starts telling her, you 

325
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,840
know, if I got, if I went to 
Utah, if I go to Salt Lake and 

326
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,280
get enrolled in law school, I 
could become a lawyer and then I

327
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,120
can provide for you and Molly. 
We can get married. 

328
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,320
And so they're kind of engaged. 
Not really. 

329
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,520
They're just talking about 
getting married and she's like, 

330
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,440
well, that would be great. 
Ted not really figuring what 

331
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:45,800
she, you know, what was going 
on. 

332
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:48,880
She she's. 
Counting on that. 

333
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:54,760
Right the instant that he is 
that he is out the door, she 

334
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:56,880
takes the picture. 
The last picture of him in 

335
00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:01,360
Washington DC in, sorry, 
Washington State, is him. 

336
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,720
Facing towards Utah on the 
highway with his bicycle turned 

337
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:10,280
upside down on his Volkswagen 
Beetle there and he's about to 

338
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,080
take off. 
And that clothes, that's later 

339
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,840
how people like how the police 
identify him. 

340
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,640
He's wearing those clothes when 
he's caught on camera and his 

341
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:26,200
car is in the frame in this at 
this picnic leaving Washington 

342
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,200
state where 2 girls wound up 
going missing and it turns out 

343
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,200
they were killed. 
And so, I mean, he's got that 

344
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,360
photo. 
And the same day there's video 

345
00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:37,880
footage from just people, you 
know, just taking home. 

346
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,000
Yeah, just taking their own. 
Little thing. 

347
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,960
That's there he is. 
There's Ted looking for victims.

348
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,360
He couldn't he couldn't even 
make it out of the state before 

349
00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:51,400
he had to kill somebody. 
And so he but anyways, but at 

350
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,440
that point he had been killing 
girls in, in Washington for a 

351
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:59,200
while. 
And she, he and she as soon as 

352
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,760
he was gone, she called the 
police and said that man, those 

353
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:08,080
murders the about a white man, 
they called him, I'm not sure 

354
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,360
what point they started calling 
him the Ted killer. 

355
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,240
But she said, she said, 
everybody, from what I 

356
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,400
understand, he was a white man. 
He is tall. 

357
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:21,200
He had curly hair, black hair. 
He's very personable and 

358
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,320
friendly people who knew him And
he drove a light colored 

359
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,760
Volkswagen Beetle. 
And she's like, I'm almost 

360
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:28,520
certain it's my boyfriend, Ted 
Bundy. 

361
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,000
And she told the police in 
Washington this. 

362
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,600
And they're like, OK, you know, 
they take down the report. 

363
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,400
It's like, oh, we got another 
Ted killer. 

364
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:36,560
OK, great. 
Yeah. 

365
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,280
And that was it. 
They could have saved. 

366
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:41,560
Stopped it then. 
Yeah. 

367
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:46,480
Wow. 
So he goes to Utah and at that 

368
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:51,240
point in time in Utah County, 
where I live here in, you know, 

369
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,640
here in American Fork, there was
a man, sheriff by the name of 

370
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:57,760
Mac Hawley. 
I have his journal here. 

371
00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:00,760
This is one of a very hard to 
get item. 

372
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,200
I had to I had to really dig to 
get this thing. 

373
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,760
But in this book, this is the 
book where he claims Mac Hawley,

374
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:14,240
the sheriff of Utah County, that
he doubts that Ted Bundy killed 

375
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:18,480
Laura Amy, who becomes central 
to to the whole case. 

376
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:23,480
Laura Amy was found dead here in
American Fork Canyon about 

377
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,040
Yonder from where I am right 
now. 

378
00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:33,960
And so so in 1974, just that 
that's spring. 

379
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,600
Owen Kornberg works for Mac 
Holly. 

380
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,800
Now you have to understand Mac 
Holly, his experience in 

381
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,320
criminal law at this point he 
would owned a store in 

382
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,840
Springville. 
No, no Spanish Fark as people 

383
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:54,760
from New York back Spanish Fark.
So he owned a store in Spanish 

384
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:59,360
Fark and didn't have a lot else 
going on in life. 

385
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,120
Member of the church, Norman 
Church, obviously not a big 

386
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:04,800
surprise there. 
But the sheriff at the time 

387
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,680
comes to him and says your store
runs fine by itself. 

388
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,120
You should come down to the Utah
County Sheriff's Office and 

389
00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:13,200
become my deputy and I'll 
deputize you. 

390
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,640
You become deputy sheriff. 
OK, cool. 

391
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,600
And so he becomes deputy county 
deputy sheriff. 

392
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:25,760
And then the sheriff retires and
Maccauley runs, I believe, 

393
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,440
unopposed and becomes a sheriff.
And that's how Mack Hawley 

394
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:30,920
became the sheriff of Utah 
County. 

395
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,480
This is the extent of the man's 
law enforcement experience at 

396
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,160
this point. 
All of his, you know, and 

397
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:43,200
basically his whole department 
is, you know, sheriff's county 

398
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,560
deputies writing speeding 
tickets, cleaning up Rd. kill on

399
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,960
I-15, not doing a whole lot, 
right? 

400
00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:53,080
But Utah County starting to grow
with BYU getting more and, you 

401
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,600
know, students enrolled and, you
know, things like this. 

402
00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,160
And so Utah County's taking off 
and he decides he's going to 

403
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,960
start a detective department. 
They're inside the Utah County 

404
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:05,840
Sheriff's Office. 
Eventually we're going to have 

405
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:07,440
crimes here. 
And he is. 

406
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,640
So he gets one of these exams 
for deciding, you know, if a 

407
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:16,480
person has the intellect for a, 
for a detective and gives it to 

408
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,000
everybody in his, in his 
Sheriff's Office. 

409
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,920
And the guy who scores the 
highest is a man named Owen 

410
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:27,880
Kornberg. 
And he doesn't score, as far as 

411
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,360
I know, particularly high. 
I haven't seen the actual 

412
00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:32,440
results. 
He just scores higher than 

413
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,280
everybody else in the in the 
office, including Holly 

414
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,200
Maccauley himself. 
So Maccauley's like, well, I 

415
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,480
guess, you know, you've only 
been on the job a couple of 

416
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,640
years, so I can't give you a 
bump in pay and I can't give you

417
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,440
like a, you know, raise in 
entitled to something like a 

418
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,840
captain or something like that. 
So I'm just going to make you a 

419
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,040
Sergeant. 
Yeah, I believe a Sergeant, 

420
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,600
either Sergeant or, or just 
detective. 

421
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,520
And you're going to have a three
man detective group and you guys

422
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,040
are going to solve crimes. 
And it's like, great. 

423
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:05,480
What crimes? 
I don't know whatever crimes 

424
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,440
come up. 
The road kill. 

425
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,760
Right. 
Who killed, who killed Bambi? 

426
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:19,320
And so that so that September 
Bundy comes to Utah, comes to 

427
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,880
Salt Lake, he moves into the 
pink Palace up there in the 

428
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,000
avenues. 
That's the apartment. 

429
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,840
When people talk about Bundy's 
apartment, usually that's the 

430
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,960
apartment they're talking about.
That apartment, by the way, 

431
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,640
belonged to a Supreme Court 
judge who spent a lot of his 

432
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,000
political capital trying to keep
that under wraps. 

433
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,240
But everybody in that I, I 
talked to a guy who talked to 

434
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,240
neighbors of, of Bundy's in that
building, they're like everybody

435
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:48,760
in this house was doing drugs 
all the time. 

436
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,240
It is like it is hard to, it's 
like, could, could Bundy really 

437
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,360
have brought girls in, taking 
girls out? 

438
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:57,120
And it's like, dude, half the 
time we were all tripping acid. 

439
00:25:57,120 --> 00:26:00,440
And shit. 
It's like we were all fucking 

440
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,600
high. 
Probably like. 

441
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:05,040
Let me help you with that. 
It's. 

442
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,280
Like, dude, you couldn't wake 
the, you couldn't wake the dead,

443
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,240
you know? 
So, yeah, so I mean, but so that

444
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,240
apartment becomes curious. 
So that's September, September, 

445
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:24,080
October 2, Mormon missionaries 
knock on the door of that house.

446
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,280
Sister missionaries, girls, 2122
years old, right. 

447
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,800
And they and who comes to the 
door but Ted Bundy. 

448
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,160
And he's very interested in what
they have to say. 

449
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:42,720
And won't they please come in 
and you know, 2 cute Mormon 

450
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,520
girls are like, oh actually 
we're not allowed to teach 

451
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,800
single men who live by 
themselves. 

452
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,560
Which normally when I was a 
missionary I hated that rule, 

453
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,040
but this case that's probably a 
good idea. 

454
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,680
Yeah, they could have been the 
next roadkill. 

455
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,600
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

456
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,360
They were, they were in a lot of
danger. 

457
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:09,200
So, but they're like, well, you 
should come out to family home 

458
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,880
evening. 
And he's like, well, family home

459
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:12,840
evening. 
What's that? 

460
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,040
I said it's every Monday night. 
Mormons spend the evening with 

461
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,080
their families. 
And he's like, well, I don't 

462
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:20,920
have a family. 
I'm a single guy. 

463
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,360
And they're like, well, that's 
the thing at the University 

464
00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:28,480
Ward, which is a congregation 
for single people here at Utah 

465
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,400
County. 
You know, we get together with a

466
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,760
whole bunch of single people and
we're like each other's family. 

467
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,840
And it would be really great if 
we could get more guys there 

468
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,520
because the portion of guys to 
gals is like 10 girls to one 

469
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,520
guy. 
And he's like, do you have any 

470
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:51,120
brunettes, really? 
So like if if you ever see 

471
00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:54,720
photographs of Ted Bundy being 
normal, that he was like cooking

472
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,680
or that there's like 1 scene 
where he one picture where he's 

473
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,960
got a towel over his shoulder 
and he's washing dishes with it 

474
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:02,880
with a gal. 
Those are all from a Mormon, 

475
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,400
from Mormon family home evenings
there with that ward. 

476
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:07,760
I want to say it's called 6th 
Ward. 

477
00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:14,280
And yeah, so he starts to attend
these family home evening events

478
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,680
and take discussions. 
Now, at the time they don't have

479
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,880
any full time missionaries in 
Salt Lake for to who are males 

480
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,680
who can teach him. 
So they they get a couple of 

481
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:30,320
RMS, especially 11 man by the 
name of Larry Anderson, 

482
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,240
basically becomes in charge of 
converting Ted Bundy. 

483
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,160
And he's a he's a return 
missionary. 

484
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,800
He gets called the state 
missionary, which for people 

485
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,920
outside of the Mormon circle is 
basically like in like a 

486
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,800
missionary reservist who's, you 
know, he's doing it part time. 

487
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,480
He's not a full time machine, 
but he was, he was a return 

488
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,920
machine. 
So they're teaching Ted the 

489
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:55,200
discussions. 
And during this time, we now 

490
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,600
know he would start to go down 
to Utah County to hang out in a 

491
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,000
little place called Lehigh. 
Right down the road from where I

492
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,920
am here in American Pork, 
there's a little cafe that was 

493
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,280
known to locals as Brown's Cafe.
It's the actual name of place 

494
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:15,840
was the Knotty Pine Cafe and but
the locals called it Mole Browns

495
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:20,120
because a man named Brown owned 
it and he had a big mole on his 

496
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,800
face so he was known to locals 
as Mole Browns. 

497
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,240
That's terrible. 
Hi, Molly. 

498
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,400
This is, this is like a local, 
you know, So this is like a 

499
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,600
local story. 
I mean, it's quite a thing. 

500
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:40,160
So that comes into play later. 
So what happens though, is on on

501
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:45,840
Halloween night 1974, a girl by 
the name of Laura Amy goes 

502
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,560
missing from Robinson Park here 
in American Fork, just right 

503
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,200
down the street from me. 
And that same night she had been

504
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,000
at a bowling alley right down 
here. 

505
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,720
Now there's a bowling alley 
right next door to me because of

506
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,640
Jack and Jill's lanes. 
And when I read this in the 

507
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,200
poem, I'm like, Oh my gosh, it's
like right next door to me where

508
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,960
this girl was, you know, and I 
was talking to this guy who was 

509
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,120
a researcher for an Australian 
biographer who's doing a 

510
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,920
biography on Bundy. 
And he said, no, it was actually

511
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,040
another building right down the 
road from there that's now like 

512
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,520
a Recreation Center. 
And the moment he texted me 

513
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,560
that, because he and I've been 
talking about texts for months 

514
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,520
now, I happen to be walking past
that building. 

515
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,120
Oh wow. 
I turned and took a picture of 

516
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:29,560
it. 
I turned and took a picture of 

517
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:30,480
this. 
Building. 

518
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,480
Like this building right here 
and he's like, you found it? 

519
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,320
I'm like, I walk past this 
building every morning. 

520
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,040
He's like, that was the bowling 
alley I was getting. 

521
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,040
So I'm wild. 
We know that she was there and 

522
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,000
then we know she was at the park
and then a little after midnight

523
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,480
when the party ended as a 
Halloween party, she disappeared

524
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:55,040
and one at least one person saw 
her get into a light colored 

525
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,160
Volkswagen so. 
That car was his downfall. 

526
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,680
You think as smart as he was, 
he'd be smarter than that. 

527
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,440
Here's the wild part about that.
That whole time he had another 

528
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,520
car, he had a truck. 
Get a. 

529
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,120
Pickup. 
Truck and it was like and but 

530
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,880
like I'm like the heater must 
not have worked in the truck 

531
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,800
like he this this researcher and
I went back and forth of this 

532
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,160
I'm like. 
Used the truck. 

533
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,560
Why the Volkswagen and it's 
like, but like people 

534
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,440
hypothesized for a long time, 
it's that if you took the the 

535
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,960
seat, the passenger seat out of 
the Volkswagen, it was just the 

536
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:35,240
right size to put a body in. 
It's like, well, they a truck 

537
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:40,680
has a bed. 
Was the truck broken down? 

538
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,720
What's the story? 
But that it's another thing is 

539
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,600
that the truck starts to make 
and starts to emerge in other 

540
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,800
stories. 
Oh, there was Ted would come 

541
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:54,680
down, but he with his buddy was 
a tall, lanky friend and they 

542
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,680
came down in a green colored 
boat and pickup and it's like, 

543
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,160
what color was Bunty's pickup? 
And like, start digging through 

544
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:03,040
all the. 
Right. 

545
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,440
Yeah. 
And nobody knows this, this 

546
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,440
pickup went missing someone. 
And he's like this researcher 

547
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,640
and I, we were talking about and
he said he's the guy who has the

548
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,480
YouTube channel where he 
interviews all the people 

549
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:20,040
connected to Bundy. 
And he is called Captain Borax 

550
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,000
on YouTube. 
And Captain Borax and I go 

551
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,120
through it and he's like, here's
the thing. 

552
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,280
Those are the old pickup trucks 
people fix up and keep running 

553
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,280
and running. 
It's like someone out there in 

554
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,400
Utah probably is driving around 
Ted Bundy's pickup right now. 

555
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,320
Yucky EW. 
They have no idea. 

556
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,320
That it would green. 
My dad had a old green pickup. 

557
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,560
I hope it wasn't a Chevy. 
We need to, we need to talk. 

558
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,920
It could be Ted Bundy. 
I know, spooky. 

559
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,440
So Lauren Amy goes missing on 
Halloween night, then on 

560
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:58,520
Thanksgiving morning. 
Thanksgiving Day 2 hikers in 

561
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:03,120
American Fort Canyon People from
not Utah don't know this 

562
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:09,080
euphemism. 2 hikers in American 
Fort Canyon means two kids 

563
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,800
smoking weed because. 
We can't be normal out here. 

564
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,720
This is not a normal place like 
smoking weed is like you're 

565
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,120
going to prison here just so. 
You people know that. 

566
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,600
Well, the the real scandal is, 
and then it's reported in the 

567
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,400
newspaper to BYU students and 
hiking in American Port Canyon. 

568
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,880
It's like oh shit, honor code. 
Now I got juicy. 

569
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,400
So they're going up, they're 
smoking, they're smoking the 

570
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,160
stuff allegedly, allegedly as 
they're going up American Fort 

571
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:45,760
Canyon and stumble upon the 
remains of Laura Amy and they 

572
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,640
freak out, call the police. 
They have to go back into town 

573
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,440
to call the police because at 
the time I'm, I don't think it, 

574
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,160
this was just past Mount 
Timpanoga's cave, just on the 

575
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:59,920
other side of Mount of the Uinta
side of Mount Timpanoga's cave. 

576
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,480
And so, and I don't think that 
the visitor center was there 

577
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:04,680
yet. 
As a matter of fact, I've seen 

578
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,760
pictures from that year. 
It was like mainly just a 

579
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,040
parking lot. 
And so Mount Timpanogas was 

580
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,199
popular, but to go to or or 
Timpanogas cave, excuse me, was 

581
00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:17,000
popular, but to go to The Cave, 
not to the visitor center. 

582
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,880
So they have to go back into 
town to report this gal. 

583
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,440
This this woman they found, 
she's 17 years old. 

584
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,639
And at the time, I don't know 
how they, I don't know why they 

585
00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:31,600
called Utah County because 
technically I think that she's 

586
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,639
on the Uinta side of the Canyon.
But I, I've been looking for 

587
00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:37,120
this. 
I haven't tracked it down, but 

588
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,320
I'm pretty sure that Uinta just 
didn't have a County Sheriff at 

589
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:41,639
that time. 
But I'm not sure. 

590
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,560
But Utah, Yeah. 
Yeah. 

591
00:34:45,159 --> 00:34:50,199
Utah County Sheriff's Office Mac
Holly and Lee and Owen Kornberg 

592
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,960
show up to do the investigation.
Their first stuff ever and it's 

593
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,240
this horribly big case. 
Oh my gosh. 

594
00:34:57,240 --> 00:35:01,080
It's their basically their first
case and I can't really. 

595
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,920
Imagine. 
So all right, according to the 

596
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:10,800
police report, they found tire 
marks matching that later worked

597
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,640
matched to Ted Bundy's 
Volkswagen and they made a 

598
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:19,000
plaster cast of the tire marks. 
OK, cuz it's at a pull out. 

599
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:25,000
They found Laura Amy's body. 
She was naked except for a ring 

600
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,400
on her finger. 
And she had had. 

601
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,960
She had been strangled. 
She'd appeared to be strangled 

602
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:34,280
with a pair of pantyhose. 
And there were later fibers of 

603
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,520
pantyhose nylon embedded in her 
skin. 

604
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,080
She is. 
And she had been apparently 

605
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:48,640
raped and bludgeoned over the 
head and, but otherwise. 

606
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,360
He was a nice little contact 
killer man, like with the bare 

607
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,160
hands stuff like. 
Yeah, that. 

608
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,560
Talks about Yeah. 
There's a whole psychological 

609
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,240
thing to get into the pantyhose 
because she was not the first or

610
00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:05,200
last that he used that this was 
his MO to strangle them with. 

611
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:06,680
Pants. 
Yeah, and the and the 

612
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,720
bludgeoning too, which is weird.
And the bludging on the head. 

613
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:12,080
Yeah, yeah. 
Consistent. 

614
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:18,000
Everything consistent with a Ted
Bundy murder you know well over 

615
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,840
a year before those all those 
details are really fully public 

616
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,440
or really well known in the 
public. 

617
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,040
This this was consistent boom, 
boom, boom, boom, boom MO Ted 

618
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:33,400
Bundy, Ted Bundy killing the one
difference was Ted Bundy would 

619
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:38,560
pick girls up and and he this 
becomes actually a big key. 

620
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:39,760
Maybe I'll save that for a 
minute. 

621
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,640
OK. 
Anyways, there's one major 

622
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,000
difference and that was that she
was picked up in the same county

623
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,520
that she was that she went 
missing from and Ted Bundy 

624
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,720
didn't do that. 
Ted Bundy would pick him up in 

625
00:36:50,720 --> 00:36:54,000
one place and he would move him 
and he would drop him off after 

626
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,720
they were dead in another place.
But that that is interesting 

627
00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:03,400
when that got when he would blur
that line was either probably 

628
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,000
appears to be either he was too 
drunk. 

629
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,040
His claim was that sometimes he 
was too drunk and he would start

630
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:11,800
to panic. 
And so we just had to get her 

631
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:16,600
out of the car, get the car. 
Well, and then you have to think

632
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,640
about the work that it is. 
You know, like this isn't just 

633
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,320
like I I've carried a dead body 
because I'm a nurse and I've had

634
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,360
to move them and all kinds of 
gross stuff. 

635
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,200
And that is not an easy task. 
You have to be up for it. 

636
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:34,240
So yeah, I mean for sure. 
It's like some girls like 

637
00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:39,120
Melissa Smith, he killed her on 
you know, you know, he picked 

638
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:46,120
her up on at the mall up there 
at at the fashion mall in Murray

639
00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:49,400
and then he basically dumped 
her. 

640
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:51,960
He like basically went up the 
Canyon and just dumped her. 

641
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:59,080
Whereas Debbie Kent, he picked 
her up in Bountiful and Stat and

642
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,120
claims he stashed her body way 
down in Sanpete County. 

643
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:07,960
Like days later I was like holy 
crap, are you like what? 

644
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,160
What? 
Are you doing with it in 

645
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:11,320
between? 
Yeah. 

646
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,160
Exactly. 
And that feels this, this whole 

647
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,560
thing about maybe he he played 
with them. 

648
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,440
Well, two things. 
One was that he would keep them 

649
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:24,760
alive and he would rape them 
consistently and then kill them.

650
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,240
And the other was that he would 
kill them and then rape them 

651
00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:33,280
after they were dead. 
And, and we he never really 

652
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,960
confessed to either. 
So we don't really know what 

653
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:41,800
happened there. 
But this, this MO, the 

654
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,640
differences in the MO is where 
things get really murky with 

655
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,600
Bundy to the point where some 
people say like some of these, 

656
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,120
some of these murders he's 
actually been exonerated on 

657
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,960
where it's like this doesn't fit
his MO. 

658
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,600
And then witnesses have placed 
other persons at the scene of 

659
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,240
the crime, where we realize now 
for years, some of these victims

660
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,840
are not Bundy's victims. 
There's somebody else, which 

661
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,840
means that there was more than 
one murderer swimming around. 

662
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,080
They should be doing some DNA 
from that. 

663
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,560
They take all those samples. 
I bet they have. 

664
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:19,120
I bet they have some stuff. 
So there's the thing, 1974 DNA 

665
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,280
research exists, but courts and 
police departments don't really 

666
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:24,840
trust it at this point. 
How can it be? 

667
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:29,480
These scientists know who it is.
They you don't know whose blood 

668
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,280
that is. 
You don't know whose semen that 

669
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,720
is just by testing it with your 
little science lab kit. 

670
00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:38,680
They didn't trust it. 
And you know, and especially 

671
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,960
because people started to get 
exonerated as DNA starts to 

672
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:48,320
emerge, Well, Laura, Amy, she 
gets examined as soon as she's 

673
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:53,560
discovered that evening. 
She gets an autopsy by the Utah 

674
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,040
medical examiner, Dr. Serge 
Moore. 

675
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,200
There's a whole other facet of 
this story. 

676
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:05,200
Serge Moore says that she was a 
non virgin, a non virginal 17 

677
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,840
year old girl. 
Which seems strange to me. 

678
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,120
It's like I'm reading this 
autopsy report and I'm like, is 

679
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,080
that the way they put describing
autopsies? 

680
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,160
I can't find, I can't find a 
coroner to answer these 

681
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,760
questions for me on on my 
podcast so far. 

682
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:26,240
But it was, it all seemed, very 
judgmental, very looking into 

683
00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:32,840
her personality. 
And then and then like you can, 

684
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:38,640
you can know sort of, but not 
conclusively if somebody's quote

685
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:43,960
UN quote a virgin because there 
is the hymen and the hymenal 

686
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,800
tissue and then the the widening
of the vaginal wall. 

687
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:52,640
However, some women have a wider
set vagina than others and 

688
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:56,000
depending on tampons and these 
other things and whatever, we 

689
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,920
won't even get into self 
exploration such as things like 

690
00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:02,360
that. 
Who knows what we don't know? 

691
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,600
I mean, they've even had women 
break their hymens on a horse 

692
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,600
riding horse. 
Or riding a bicycle and stuff 

693
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:10,320
like that. 
Stuff happens. 

694
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:15,720
Yeah, but it's like, and, and 
she's 17 and what difference 

695
00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:17,120
would it make? 
You know? 

696
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,280
It's like, give us the facts 
Surge. 

697
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:24,480
You know, Doctor Moore, Doctor 
Moore ISM is a Mormon. 

698
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,720
His actual name was Moreno. 
He was educated in the 

699
00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:31,640
Universidad de Mexico. 
He was born in Mexico City. 

700
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:38,840
And later on, I find out through
this, you know, research 

701
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,600
connected to me, to this 
researcher, that he later was 

702
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,480
basically fired as Utah Medical 
County examiner because so many 

703
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,880
of his autopsies were so 
inconsistent with the facts. 

704
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,080
And it turns out they looked 
into it and contacted 

705
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,720
Universidad de Mexico and 
discovered that they had no 

706
00:41:57,720 --> 00:42:01,960
record of him. 
And he, this man had practice 

707
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,080
medicine at Johns Hopkins 
University. 

708
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:08,680
If he had practice medicine in 
Cleveland, OH, he had practice, 

709
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,360
and he'd had. 
Way to do your due due diligence

710
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,840
people. 
Exactly, all the time. 

711
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,960
And he had served in the IT 
served in the Navy, apparently. 

712
00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:22,240
So it's like, and then all this 
time it's like basic things. 

713
00:42:22,240 --> 00:42:24,000
Well, so this is the curious 
thing though. 

714
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:30,600
So he gets her remains and he 
says he found semen in her 

715
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:37,160
vagina that had non potent, if a
non potent sperm in it. 

716
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:41,120
So which you would expect. 
I mean, she's been dead for a 

717
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:45,920
month. 
They're dead and it's and but he

718
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:50,320
found but he found semen and 
which means he collected it if 

719
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,120
he knows how well you know 
whether or not the sperm or 

720
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,040
healthy must have tested it, 
done some tests with it and 

721
00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:00,720
collected actual, actual fluid, 
actual tissue. 

722
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:07,520
And he is so you have that and 
he has he found the nylon fibers

723
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:11,760
in her skin. 
He found the bludgeon marks 

724
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,280
where she had been struck over 
the head with a head with blunt 

725
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,240
force trauma in a way consistent
with something like a tire iron.

726
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:21,240
And he actually puts that in the
autopsy. 

727
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:26,560
And so all of this consistent 
with the MO and also a ring that

728
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,520
he took off of that he had to 
cut her finger off because it 

729
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:34,240
had started to swell. 
And so and that rigor mortis had

730
00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:37,960
started to set in. 
But he said that the rigor, the 

731
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,760
state of rigor mortis that she 
was in showed that she had been 

732
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:47,520
dead for a week. 
Now this is Thanksgiving Day 

733
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:52,040
19701974. 
She went missing. 

734
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,600
Oh, yeah. 
Halloween night 19. 70 yeah, 

735
00:43:55,720 --> 00:44:00,440
that's long. 
So there's at least two weeks, 

736
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:05,920
maybe 3 where she is, according 
to this autopsy. 

737
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:10,520
She's been kept alive somewhere.
And I'm looking at this and I'm 

738
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,960
like, where? 
Because the reason I started 

739
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,640
into this is that there's a cave
up here in American Fork Canyon 

740
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:19,800
that they called Ted Bundy's 
Cave. 

741
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,400
And it's been an urban legend 
for a long time, debunked 

742
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,480
several times. 
People like there's no way Ted 

743
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:27,640
Bundy would have known about 
this. 

744
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:29,280
It's an old abandoned mine 
shaft. 

745
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,760
I went up there to record in 
front of it and very 

746
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,000
disappointed to find out they 
blasted it out. 

747
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:36,520
So you can't even get up there 
anymore. 

748
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:42,920
So, but the, The thing is, all 
of that speculation came out of 

749
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:47,320
this conclusion that there was 
that she'd only been dead for a 

750
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:49,400
week. 
And so people started looking 

751
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:51,320
for where, where did he keep 
her? 

752
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,000
Was it in the basement? 
So there's a, a cellar, a storm 

753
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,840
cellar in the place where he 
where his apartment was in the, 

754
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:03,200
in the avenues. 
It's like he picked her up in 

755
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:07,640
the he picked her up down here 
in Rob at Robinson Park and 

756
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,240
drove her all the way back to 
the Avenues and kept her up 

757
00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:13,760
there, kept her in the basement 
of a building where all these 

758
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,560
other people are living. 
I don't care if they are smoking

759
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:18,640
pot and dropping acid all day 
long. 

760
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,840
Somebody's going to hear a girl.
Right on. 

761
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:26,360
Something screaming. 
Yeah, it's like, but I mean, you

762
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,440
could say, well, maybe he took 
her up there and he killed her. 

763
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,040
But then why would would her 
autopsy report say she'd only 

764
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,920
been dead for a week? 
She, you know, So none, none of 

765
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,600
it adds up. 
None of it makes sense until I 

766
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,320
said to this researcher. 
I said he said, what do you say,

767
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,480
Joe? 
I said, I say, is October 31st, 

768
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:47,720
which means an American Ford 
Canyon. 

769
00:45:47,720 --> 00:45:50,320
I've been up and down that 
Canyon a million times. 

770
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,440
That means that that Canyon was 
cold AF. 

771
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:59,120
Dude. 
That Canyon is a morgue, and 

772
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,160
that makes total sense that she 
would her body would be 

773
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,040
preserved more. 
Than you would expect. 

774
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:06,440
And he's like, not only that, he
said. 

775
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:10,920
But it snowed that day. 
He said snowed and, and on 

776
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,720
Halloween, I mean, it happens, 
but that's a little early. 

777
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,760
And he's like, it did. 
He's like, you can find reports 

778
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,760
down as far as South as Provo 
that it was snowing. 

779
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,840
And he's like, you get a body 
there with a thin layer of snow 

780
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:26,400
over it. 
Yeah. 

781
00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:29,640
I'm like. 
It's going to stay nice, yeah. 

782
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,280
I said, so she could have been 
dead for a month. 

783
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:34,520
He's like, yeah. 
And I said that's that seems to 

784
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,640
make more sense to me than that.
He took her up to the avenues 

785
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:41,800
and kept her in the cellar. 
He never kept them that long, 

786
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:45,240
even if there was conjecture 
that he kept them, that it's 

787
00:46:45,240 --> 00:46:48,760
like very short period of time, 
you know, from what we know. 

788
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,880
He was such a, he was such an 
anxious man. 

789
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:56,280
I mean, he would, he would freak
out, you know, he would be like,

790
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,160
since somebody's going to find 
out, somebody's going to find 

791
00:46:58,160 --> 00:46:59,680
out. 
Yeah, I. 

792
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:00,440
Can't. 
Imagine. 

793
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,600
I don't think so. 
So here's The thing is that that

794
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:08,640
Thanksgiving, Ted Bundy had 
friends over to the house up 

795
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,200
there, the apartment, the 
avenues. 

796
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:16,400
It was his missionaries, John, I
forget his, there's John. 

797
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,840
So and so there's four guys. 
I have it in an episode of Blood

798
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,920
Atonement coming out here soon. 
But but there's four of them, 

799
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:30,600
including Larry Elder and they 
had just gotten a copy, I 

800
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,560
believe of the Deseret News. 
There was a there was an article

801
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:37,440
in the Deseret News about a 
murder, about an attempted 

802
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,520
kidnapping. 
Of like, do you hear about this?

803
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,800
Do you hear about this girl? 
Yeah, right. 

804
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:48,240
And so it's been attributed many
times to Carol Duranch, but it 

805
00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:51,720
actually wasn't Carol Duranch. 
They published a a composite 

806
00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:57,800
sketch that turns out it was the
the drama teacher for Debbie 

807
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:04,000
Kent in Bountiful and she had 
she had been approached on the 

808
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:08,760
night that Carol Duranch. 
Carol Duranch was one of was the

809
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,560
first woman to survive the Ted 
Bundy attacks. 

810
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,520
She you know, he picked her up 
at the same place where he 

811
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:18,160
picked up Melissa Smith earlier 
earlier that month. 

812
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:23,880
He came back and picked her up 
and said that he was a police 

813
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,400
officer, that he caught somebody
trying to break into her car. 

814
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:29,800
He wanted to take her down to 
the Murray Police Department to 

815
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,760
fill out a report. 
She's like, OK, so she goes with

816
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,040
him. 
But she's a pretty clever girl, 

817
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,560
Carol Duranch. 
And she figures out right away 

818
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,960
because she's getting up to this
old beat up Volkswagen, that 

819
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:45,360
this is not a police officer. 
And she figures I guess maybe 

820
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,360
he's undercover because he's not
dressed like a police officer, 

821
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:51,040
but he has a badge. 
And she says, I want, can I see 

822
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,080
some credentials before I get in
this car, this strange car? 

823
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,400
And he flashes a badge at her. 
And then she's like, get in the 

824
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,560
car. 
She's like, OK, I guess some 

825
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:01,040
police officers drive both, you 
know? 

826
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,800
So she gets into the car. 
They make it up the road less 

827
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,680
than a mile when his demeanor 
turns dark. 

828
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:16,520
And he reaches over and takes a 
pair of handcuffs and slaps one 

829
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:22,160
on her wrist and she's and she 
freaks out, as you would 

830
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:26,320
imagine, turns to him. 
She starts screaming, wants to 

831
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,480
get out of the car, get let me 
out of this car. 

832
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:32,160
He pulls over onto the side of 
the road, starts wrestling with 

833
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,120
her. 
She goes for the door, door 

834
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,400
handle and discovers it doesn't 
open. 

835
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:38,800
He's been rigged to not open 
from the inside. 

836
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,840
And so she starts wrestling. 
He pulls out a gun. 

837
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,920
He pulls out a pistol and tells 
her to be quiet or he's going to

838
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:50,080
kill her and she's like 
whatever, you kill me either way

839
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:50,600
is. 
Whatever. 

840
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,120
Yeah, you're coming for me. 
Whatever. 

841
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,920
Yeah. 
She she manages to I, she 

842
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:58,920
doesn't even know. 
She doesn't describe how she 

843
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:03,040
figured out or or managed to, 
but somehow she managed to buck 

844
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:07,640
that door open, just twisting it
in a seat and just boom, popping

845
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:11,240
that door open, which it'll do 
if you do just about any car 

846
00:50:11,240 --> 00:50:14,240
door. 
He's out on top of her. 

847
00:50:14,240 --> 00:50:17,160
As soon as she's out on the 
ground wrestling on top of her 

848
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,680
and the car comes up all along 
the road. 

849
00:50:19,720 --> 00:50:23,480
She gets out from underneath 
him, runs over to the to this 

850
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:27,920
car and throws open the back 
seat of the the back door of 

851
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,960
this sedan. 
Thank goodness that one was open

852
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:35,480
and shouts Dr. drive drive. 
And so she gets away. 

853
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,320
That turns out to be his worst 
nightmare, because that's the 

854
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,440
girl who later identifies him in
the lineup. 

855
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,600
And that's where his story 
starts to unravel. 

856
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:50,320
So in any event, the that same 
day he got that he has that urge

857
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,920
to kill. 
And it once he got that point, 

858
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:57,800
he can't stop himself. 
So he goes up to Bountiful, goes

859
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,480
to a school play, he gets a 
ticket. 

860
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:06,240
He or no, no, he gets a like a 
handbill for the play at at this

861
00:51:06,240 --> 00:51:09,280
local high school. 
And that's the handbill they 

862
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:13,200
later find in his apartment that
connects him to this murder. 

863
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:19,360
And so he finds, he start, he 
walks up to this tall, lanky, 

864
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:26,160
beautiful brunette, early 30s, I
want to say, who's the drama 

865
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,320
teacher in the hallway? 
And he comes up to her and he 

866
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:33,000
starts and he tells her that he 
really, he compliments her on 

867
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:37,000
her eyes and like her dress or 
whatever. 

868
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:40,480
I, I, I forget exactly. 
I think he, I remember he, he 

869
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:45,280
complimented her on her eyes and
then he told her that he wanted 

870
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,640
to show her something out in his
car or something. 

871
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:51,200
And she's got all the red flags 
going on. 

872
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,880
She's there monitoring the play,
of course, because she's the 

873
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:58,960
drama teacher. 
And she's like, I don't think 

874
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,040
I'm going anywhere with you, 
thank you very much. 

875
00:52:01,240 --> 00:52:06,240
But who, who even are you? 
And it's just like, look, I, I 

876
00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:10,200
have to be back backstage. 
So she goes backstage and she 

877
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:13,440
goes to a male faculty member 
and she's like, there's a creep 

878
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,080
outside wandering the halls of 
the school. 

879
00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:18,200
I think he's, I think he's 
dangerous. 

880
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,560
Go check him out. 
By the time he gets out there he

881
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:23,000
comes back. 
It's like I didn't see any 

882
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:28,600
creepy looking guy. 
She has seen him entering into 

883
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:30,600
the auditorium and leaving 
again. 

884
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:36,840
Debbie Kent goes has and he and 
that he had Debbie Kent with 

885
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:38,840
him. 
Debbie Kent goes missing that 

886
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:40,000
night. 
She's never seen him alive 

887
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,160
again. 
They find later they find a 

888
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:48,800
Patella in down in San Pete 
County I believe and that's 

889
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:53,040
believed to be her that later 
was DNA match to be Debbie 

890
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,800
Kent's. 
So in any. 

891
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,920
I wonder if I kept all those old
samples, like even if they 

892
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,840
didn't run them back then 
because they thought like it's 

893
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:05,080
hokey or whatever. 
I'm curious, you know, there's a

894
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:08,280
lot of cases that have really 
old DNA that they're still able 

895
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:12,520
to extract later. 
And, and I it's curious that 

896
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:16,160
they haven't done this because I
mean, obviously, like you said, 

897
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:18,880
I don't think they want to get 
into it like, oh, there's maybe 

898
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,080
another guy and we missed it or 
whatever. 

899
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:25,400
But I mean very curious. 
See, now that's interesting that

900
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:29,000
you would bring that up. 
OK, so here's the deal my. 

901
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:32,320
Forensic weird brain. 
We're going to get to that We're

902
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:34,480
going to get to that because 
that's exactly right. 

903
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:38,920
I I I said the same thing, 
especially when Laura Amy they 

904
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:43,800
tested the sperm, the sperm 
count in the semen that they 

905
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:45,920
found in her. 
That means he collected semen. 

906
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:47,360
You wouldn't just throw that 
away. 

907
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:49,880
You'd put that with the evidence
right. 

908
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,240
In case you case you find the 
killer you can connect them up 

909
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:59,160
so, but any event they. 
At least tested, you know, 

910
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:02,160
there's people's sperm even back
then. 

911
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:05,400
There's like carrier sperm and 
non carrier sperm. 

912
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:09,160
Like they like blood where it 
has like the RH factor or non RH

913
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:10,600
factor. 
There's stuff that they could 

914
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,840
have used, even the blood typing
from it. 

915
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,560
So I mean, there's typing of 
these things. 

916
00:54:16,720 --> 00:54:20,480
So I'm curious. 
And hair samples, one of the, 

917
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:25,280
you know, sketchier, but you 
know, sometimes productive ways 

918
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:28,040
to well. 
Let's be let's be honest, we 

919
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:30,720
know he wasn't grooming because 
have you seen those eyebrows? 

920
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:35,840
I'm sorry. 
Not his. 

921
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:38,600
Not his hair. 
The victim's hair. 

922
00:54:40,240 --> 00:54:46,000
Because later he sells that 
later after he goes, he goes, 

923
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:49,920
he's being held in jail for 
Carol Duranch for the attempted 

924
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:54,440
kidnapping of Carol Duranch. 
He takes his car, which he has 

925
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,560
put up for Bond. 
He takes that Volkswagen and he 

926
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:03,600
sells it to a 1617 year old boy 
down in Murray. 

927
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:08,920
Murray, who was one of the 
classmates of Melissa Smith, the

928
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:10,600
girl, one of the girls he 
murdered. 

929
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:14,360
And he sells the car to this boy
who's ecstatic. 

930
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:17,760
He starts taking girls on 
because he's working down at the

931
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,600
Winchell's, you know, doughnut 
shop. 

932
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,440
And he's he's making a little 
bit of money. 

933
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:27,240
So he's going to take girls out 
on dates and things he's taking.

934
00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:31,080
Girls money I mean they can't 
get away because there's no door

935
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:38,800
that we're I'm sorry I I am the 
worst OK, This is why I'm here 

936
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:42,960
I'm here to bring the goof like.
Once So here's the thing. 

937
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,920
This so they they have a hell of
a time tracking down this car 

938
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:50,400
because he told the boy he's 
like when he sold it to him. 

939
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:52,960
I almost got an interview. 
I might get an interview with 

940
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,440
this kid. 
This car is so cool. 

941
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:58,760
My researcher friend, he talked 
to the guy he had. 

942
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,160
There's video on on Captain 
Borax's channel. 

943
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:03,400
You can watch. 
You can listen to them talking. 

944
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:06,480
That's actually completely 
awesome. 

945
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:08,920
OK, in 30 minutes I have to tell
you this. 

946
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:11,440
Oh, do you have a? 
Version No. 

947
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:14,640
No, I don't have to get out. 
My daughter accidentally ordered

948
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:17,560
Starbucks to my house instead of
her house. 

949
00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:22,040
So in 30 minutes I'm going to 
that door cuz I am not white and

950
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:23,360
delight some. 
I like coffee. 

951
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:28,600
We are brown and we are brown. 
But I'll just bring it down here

952
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:31,000
and drink it while we talk. 
So that sounds good to me. 

953
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:34,600
You just let me know, I'll head 
over, I'll help the car. 

954
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:38,440
Yeah, yeah, we're going to meet 
up one time and do this live and

955
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:39,400
have some. 
Lunch. 

956
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:40,640
Or something. 
It would be fun. 

957
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:43,760
Sorry. 
Sorry for my. 

958
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:45,840
Interrupt. 
Back to the car. 

959
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:50,440
So they get the, so they 
finally, you know, so he takes, 

960
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:56,120
so this boy, he buys the car and
you know, for like $800, which 

961
00:56:56,120 --> 00:57:00,080
is less than it's worth. 
But Bundy tells him, he says, 

962
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:04,280
listen, I was caught smoking 
weed in this car by the police a

963
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,520
few weeks ago. 
And the guy just let me go. 

964
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:10,880
And he's like, so there's a 
report connected to the car 

965
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:14,360
with, with smoking weed. 
If you get pulled over with this

966
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:17,840
car, you're going to, you know, 
they're going to connect you 

967
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:19,880
with that. 
And then the boy's like, Oh my 

968
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:21,840
gosh, you serious? 
I don't want to get into any 

969
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:23,840
trouble. 
And he's like, just don't worry.

970
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:27,520
Just don't register the car and 
then tell them my name. 

971
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:30,560
You tell them that it's my car 
and that I lent it to you. 

972
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:34,520
And so he's like, oh, OK. 
And you know, stupid 17 year old

973
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:36,080
kid, he's driving. 
The car. 

974
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:40,680
Right, exactly, exactly. 
So when the police come looking 

975
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:44,920
for this car and finally track 
it down, they're like, and he's 

976
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:46,840
like, well, wait a second, 
what's going to happen? 

977
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:49,000
You know, they're like, we're 
going to impound this car. 

978
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:52,880
It might have evidence in it and
he's like, well, OK, So what 

979
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,120
happens with me? 
Do I get like paid or do I get 

980
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:56,840
the car back when you're done 
with it, you're. 

981
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:59,080
Good. 
You're screwed, Yeah. 

982
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:02,120
Yeah, exactly. 
And they're like nothing. 

983
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:06,160
You, you, you bought a car that 
was used in a crime, so that's 

984
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:10,960
the end of your car anyway. 
So they opened up that car. 

985
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:16,040
They opened up the panel and 
somebody, somebody had the 

986
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:20,720
clever idea to pull that, that 
door panel off with the broken 

987
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:23,760
door handle. 
And what do they find in that 

988
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:29,600
door panel? 
But brown hair, tons of hair 

989
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:33,320
from all the girls who've been 
trying to get the fuck out of 

990
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:37,120
this coat. 
And they, they're able to 

991
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:40,480
distinguish out, separate out 
the hairs by pulling them out 

992
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:42,200
and, you know, getting them 
under a microscope. 

993
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:44,240
OK, this is from 1 victim. 
This is from 1 victim. 

994
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:46,760
This is from 1 victim. 
They're able to type them, you 

995
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:49,960
know, by what kind of hair 
product they use, what kind of, 

996
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:53,880
you know, how worn the hair was.
Course. 

997
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:56,680
Yeah, of. 
Course then early, early, all 

998
00:58:56,680 --> 00:59:01,800
that so they start to type it 
and of course now we know that 

999
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:04,760
if you can get a hair sample 
from here and hair sample from 

1000
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:08,280
here, you can DNA for. 
Sure. 

1001
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:13,440
They weren't doing that back 
then, but when they when they 

1002
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:17,400
found Laura, Amy, who is a 
brunette, they found her body. 

1003
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:21,640
They took hair samples. 
So they come back. 

1004
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:24,560
All of these researchers, this 
is now the FB is involved 

1005
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:28,240
because now they know that 
they've connecting him with 

1006
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:32,200
murders in Washington, UT, 
Colorado and Idaho. 

1007
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:36,840
So this is now a national case. 
This is a federal case. 

1008
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:42,080
And so the FBI is like, we want 
all of the evidence for all 

1009
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:45,320
these girls, especially that 
girl down in American Fork 

1010
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:47,400
Canyon because that could tie 
us. 

1011
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:49,120
You know, she was so well 
preserved. 

1012
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:52,240
Most of these victims, they 
don't know what happened to 

1013
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:56,040
their remains. 
So they they're like that girl 

1014
00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:58,800
down in American Fort Canyon. 
That's dynamite. 

1015
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:01,680
That's pure gold, man. 
We got to get all of the things 

1016
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:07,240
they have from her. 
So the District Attorney for 

1017
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:09,680
Utah County is the man named 
Noel Wooten. 

1018
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:15,680
He goes to Mack Holly almost 
right away after this girl goes 

1019
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:17,760
missing. 
There's another part of the 

1020
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:20,360
story I was going to get to. 
I'll come back around to it. 

1021
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:23,200
We don't. 
I don't have a time limit other 

1022
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:28,000
than my coffee so no worries. 
That's a hard limit. 

1023
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:30,720
Right there we go. 
And that's just 5 seconds. 

1024
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:35,480
Go up, come back. 
So Noel Wooten, my dog. 

1025
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:36,280
Will let me know. 
Oh yeah. 

1026
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:42,080
I remember that. 
But Noel Wooten, he goes over to

1027
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:45,080
Mac Holly and he says we want 
all this evidence. 

1028
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:48,280
We're so we're collecting it all
in Colorado to give to the FBI. 

1029
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:54,200
They even have the car and Matt 
Colley's like what evidence? 

1030
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:59,080
And he's like the evidence on 
Laura Amy, the hair samples, the

1031
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:03,240
semen, the the the plaster cast 
of the tire tracks. 

1032
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:06,560
No, no, don't know what you're 
talking about. 

1033
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:10,800
And he's like, don't tell. 
He's like, don't give me that. 

1034
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:13,360
That's not funny. 
And he's like, I need this, I 

1035
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:16,000
need this by a certain time. 
I'll send, I'll submit the forms

1036
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:18,680
now. 
But I, we need it like right 

1037
01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:21,080
away because they're putting 
together the case to take him 

1038
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:25,120
to, to trial and to charge him 
in Colorado. 

1039
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:28,560
And he's like, yeah, no, he said
I. 

1040
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:33,600
And so they finally, they, they 
badger him for the longest time.

1041
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:40,360
So it turns out Owen Kornberg, 
who's this detective, He shows 

1042
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:44,000
up at the home of Laura Amy's 
father. 

1043
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:49,280
Laura Amy's father is the person
who identified her by looking. 

1044
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:54,040
But when he heard on the news 
that a girl had been a girl 

1045
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:58,280
who'd been found in American 
Port Canyon, he find he was able

1046
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:02,960
to see by the by three scars on 
her arm from where she'd been 

1047
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:05,040
thrown from her horse. 
She was a horse rider. 

1048
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:10,960
She loved horses. 
And he goes up there and he's 

1049
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:14,600
like, I, he calls them and he's 
like, I think this girl might be

1050
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:17,680
my daughter, the girl they found
in the in American Fort Canyon. 

1051
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:21,080
And they're like, really? 
You think that your daughter 

1052
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:23,920
might be missing? 
And he's like, OK, my daughter's

1053
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:26,800
a runaway. 
I know that she has a, you know,

1054
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:29,320
a hard lifestyle, bad lifestyle 
and whatever. 

1055
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:31,760
But you know, what can I tell 
you? 

1056
01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:33,600
She's a rebellious. 
Girl, I want to know. 

1057
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:35,360
Yeah, I want to know. 
It's still my kid. 

1058
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:39,280
Asshats. 
Like, right, I mean, I'd be the 

1059
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:42,160
greatest, I'd be the greatest 
dad in the world if my kid is 

1060
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:43,040
dead. 
I want to know. 

1061
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:49,560
And he says to the to the guy 
working for Noel Wooten later, 

1062
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:51,400
I'm trying to remember the guy's
name. 

1063
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:53,440
He's now a judge down here. 
As a matter of fact, he's a 

1064
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:55,040
member of Pleasant Grove City 
Council. 

1065
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:01,800
He tells him, he says, he says 
I, I asked him. 

1066
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:05,560
I said, well, can I go and check
out the body and there. 

1067
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:08,680
And he's like, and they gave me 
a real hard time about it. 

1068
01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:12,560
And I was like, I need to know 
if you can't tell me, he's like,

1069
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:16,000
tell me the girls the tell me 
the color of the girl's hair. 

1070
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:19,040
And they were like, we can't 
give out that kind of 

1071
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:21,120
information. 
The Utah County Sheriff's Office

1072
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:24,280
is telling him, and he's like, 
how is the person supposed to 

1073
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:27,600
find out if it's their kid? 
And he's like, this is this is 

1074
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:29,360
wild. 
And so they're like. 

1075
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:33,320
And then finally the guy says 
Mac Holly says, well, you can go

1076
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:35,040
up there and look at her if you 
want. 

1077
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:39,600
OK, thanks, jerk. 
And he goes up to. 

1078
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:41,960
I mean my kid. 
My kid is missing. 

1079
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:48,160
Yeah, and she might be murdered 
anyways, so she goes up to Utah 

1080
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:49,760
County. 
So he goes up to the medical 

1081
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:51,680
examiner's office and identifies
her. 

1082
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:53,200
Yeah, that's my daughter, Laurie
Amy. 

1083
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:59,240
And then later, when they start 
looking for the evidence box, 

1084
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:05,360
Owen Kornberg apparently 
contacts him and says, you know,

1085
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:08,400
and starts asking him if people 
have been asking around about 

1086
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:10,440
their daughter. 
About his daughter. 

1087
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:13,600
It's like, what kind of people? 
What are you talking about? 

1088
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:15,800
And it's like, we're just we, we
we need to know. 

1089
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:19,000
Are they, are, you know, have 
you been contacted by anybody? 

1090
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:21,640
He's like, who would contact me?
What? 

1091
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:23,360
Yeah. 
Then you would be like, worse. 

1092
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:25,600
You're like, what the hell is 
wrong with you people? 

1093
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:28,480
I would be going crazy by now. 
I would be. 

1094
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:34,320
Arrested, right. 
So they so they after they are 

1095
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:38,160
able to identify the body and 
all the autopsy is closed and 

1096
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:42,360
the case has been put, you know,
put away, they give the body 

1097
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:46,280
over to the parents who take her
down to Sandpi County and they 

1098
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:53,600
bury her down in Sandpi County. 
Well, after, after all this is 

1099
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:56,880
all all this is going down 
between Noah Wooten and Mack 

1100
01:04:56,880 --> 01:04:59,240
Holly. 
They finally get into into an 

1101
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:01,360
office somewhere to have a 
meeting. 

1102
01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:03,920
We're not clear. 
We've been me and this 

1103
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:06,360
researcher guy a knife, Captain 
Borax and I, we've been going 

1104
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:08,160
back where I was like, where did
this meeting happen? 

1105
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:11,120
What exactly got said? 
We can't really nail it down. 

1106
01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:16,800
But after that at, at at one 
point, we know in this meeting 

1107
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:21,680
or, or leading up to this 
meeting, Noel Wooten told Mack 

1108
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:26,520
Holly, He said I will put you in
prison if you do not produce the

1109
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:31,160
evidence of this girl. 
I will charge you with evidence 

1110
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:34,000
tampering if you do not produce 
the evidence of what happened to

1111
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:37,520
Laura, Amy. 
And then they have this meeting 

1112
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:41,720
and then nothing, nothing 
happens afterwards. 

1113
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:46,560
And yeah. 
And So what kind? 

1114
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:50,120
Of janky situation is happening.
Exactly. 

1115
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:54,240
We got a bunch of basically in 
the episode on on Helpfire 

1116
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:58,440
Agency, I describe it as this is
this is a Sheriff's Office with 

1117
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:00,680
no Andy Griffiths and all Barney
Fives. 

1118
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:04,000
Apparently so. 
Jeez. 

1119
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:07,880
Wow. 
So what it turns out is that 

1120
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:10,920
later they find out that the 
Utah County Sheriff's Office had

1121
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:14,840
moved offices at the end of 
1974, early 1975. 

1122
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:18,080
And in the process of moving 
offices, they threw away a whole

1123
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:19,600
bunch of boxes. 
They didn't even know what they 

1124
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:21,960
were. 
And probably Laurie Amy's 

1125
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:26,320
evidence was in there. 
Now, I talked to this, this guy,

1126
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:28,200
the Captain Barks I've been 
talking to. 

1127
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:34,000
He went down to, I want to say 
Springville and met with Owen 

1128
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:36,760
Kornberg, lo, these many years 
later. 

1129
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:44,480
He's an old man and he tells and
he said and he tells me that he 

1130
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:47,520
had a conversation with the man 
and he basically said we never 

1131
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:50,200
had any evidence at all. 
And he's like. 

1132
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:54,120
But. 
That's a it's, but that doesn't 

1133
01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:56,800
match the police report. 
That's a falsified police 

1134
01:06:56,800 --> 01:06:59,000
report. 
People go to jail for that. 

1135
01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:02,080
People go to prison for that. 
It's like, this is, this is 

1136
01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:04,400
serious business. 
And he's like, yeah, there's 

1137
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:08,280
never any evidence collected. 
It's like, but isn't that what 

1138
01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:11,800
you would say if you had thrown 
the evidence away? 

1139
01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:15,480
Right, he's screwed one way or 
another. 

1140
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:20,360
If he loses it he's in more 
screwed problem then I feel like

1141
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:25,160
If he never had it and lied I 
feel like I feel like that's the

1142
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:28,760
lesser of two evils probably. 
But who knows? 

1143
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:33,840
So this eventual judge, this 
officer who works for Noel 

1144
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:37,760
Wooten goes has to go. 
He goes down to Sanpete County, 

1145
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:44,040
hat in hand to to the girl's 
father, to Laurie, Amy's father,

1146
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:48,160
Jim, Jim, Amy. 
And he says, and he has to tell 

1147
01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:51,640
him, basically, Utah County lost
your daughter's evidence. 

1148
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:55,480
And we think this guy, Ted Bundy
killed her and he's like, are 

1149
01:07:55,520 --> 01:07:58,520
you kidding me, that guy? 
And he's like, it's consistent. 

1150
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:01,360
Everything's consistent with 
with his other murders. 

1151
01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:04,160
We think we can nail him for her
murder. 

1152
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:08,880
And she's one of the only girls 
that we have any remains for 

1153
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:11,640
that we can nail him with. 
We've got the body. 

1154
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:16,160
And he's like, well, OK. 
He's like, So what does, what 

1155
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:17,800
does this have to do with us 
now? 

1156
01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:20,200
He said now. 
He's got to dig her up, I bet. 

1157
01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:22,600
Yeah. 
They had to dig her up. 

1158
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:26,240
That exhumed the body and he's 
like, because we found hair 

1159
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:31,080
samples in the Volkswagen and 
he's like, it's not very 

1160
01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:34,319
conclusive evidence, but it's 
the best that we've got given 

1161
01:08:34,319 --> 01:08:39,240
that all evidence is. 
And so he signs off on it and 

1162
01:08:39,240 --> 01:08:42,120
they go to get a court order. 
This is how you know, this guy 

1163
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:46,000
is a belt and suspenders kind of
lawyer, right? 

1164
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:49,960
He's like, he's got the court 
order, the injunction to or 

1165
01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:53,040
whatever it's called to, to dig 
her up. 

1166
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:55,520
And then he goes and gets the 
family's license to exhume the 

1167
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:59,520
body and at least get hair 
samples cut from her hair. 

1168
01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:04,120
And so that I mean you Can you 
imagine just the trash? 

1169
01:09:05,359 --> 01:09:08,840
Just the dad, like the way they 
handled him in general, that's 

1170
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:11,479
he should have sued. 
He should have sued the county. 

1171
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:15,359
And he said there's a guy, he 
this guy was saying in this 

1172
01:09:15,359 --> 01:09:18,640
interview on Captain Borax's 
channel that the, that Jim Amy 

1173
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:22,439
had told him, there's this guy 
from the Utah County Sheriff's 

1174
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:25,359
Office. 
And he was so rude to us when he

1175
01:09:25,359 --> 01:09:27,720
confronted us about who we've 
been talking to. 

1176
01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:30,479
And, you know, is there anybody 
snooping around about this case?

1177
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:33,120
And he was just rude, rude, rude
to us. 

1178
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:35,880
And the guy's and the guy has 
to, he said. 

1179
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:40,760
Was his name Owen Kornberg? 
Wow. 

1180
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:44,279
Which couldn't have been he. 
Didn't want to cough it up. 

1181
01:09:44,279 --> 01:09:46,920
Yeah, he didn't want us. 
He didn't want to be nailed. 

1182
01:09:47,439 --> 01:09:49,200
Wow. 
He knew that own. 

1183
01:09:49,359 --> 01:09:52,319
He knew that Mack Hall, either 
Mack Holly or he might go to 

1184
01:09:52,319 --> 01:09:54,640
prison over this. 
I mean, he must have. 

1185
01:09:55,920 --> 01:10:00,240
So in any event, he could. 
Have just give him indemnity to 

1186
01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:04,400
talk like at that point where 
he's so old, like even before 

1187
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:08,520
that like just give the guy his 
free pass of oopsie so we know 

1188
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:10,840
what happened. 
Like the guy probably just 

1189
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:13,680
wanted to know what happened to 
his kid, you know? 

1190
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:17,160
The whole thing these years 
later just smacks up. 

1191
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:19,280
Who cares? 
You know Bundy's dead, doesn't 

1192
01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:20,520
matter. 
And it's like. 

1193
01:10:21,320 --> 01:10:24,680
So to the dad like. 
I want to know I have no 

1194
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:26,560
connection. 
I live down the street from 

1195
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:29,880
where the woman's the girl's 
body was found and I want to 

1196
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:31,960
know what happened to her. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1197
01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:33,520
It's not right. 
That's not right. 

1198
01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:37,640
So in any event, so they had 
they dig up the body, they take,

1199
01:10:37,640 --> 01:10:40,280
they take the hair samples and 
lo and behold, they don't match 

1200
01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:44,240
any of the hair samples found in
the car to this day, to this 

1201
01:10:44,240 --> 01:10:47,320
day, they never can have 
produced conclusive evidence 

1202
01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:49,280
that Bundy killed her and he 
never admitted to it. 

1203
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:54,880
So it's amazing because their 
whole reason I even tracked down

1204
01:10:54,880 --> 01:10:56,760
this book they spent 30 bucks 
on. 

1205
01:10:56,760 --> 01:11:04,080
I think I tracked it down. 
This is a small limited print of

1206
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:13,520
this book written by Mac Hawley 
to to talk about his basically 

1207
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:20,680
his whole career as sheriff from
1960 to 1985. 

1208
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:25,120
Plus it says plus BYU basketball
and football personal 

1209
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:33,400
observation history, right? 
And in this whole history is 

1210
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:37,280
this lines on page 50 of this 
book, right? 

1211
01:11:37,440 --> 01:11:42,880
And says another Grimm, it says 
the murder of Laura and Amy. 

1212
01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:46,000
Another Grimm murder 
investigation began when the 

1213
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:51,280
nude body of Miss Amy, age 17, 
was found by hikers in American 

1214
01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:56,400
Fort Canyon November 26th, 1974.
According to the medical 

1215
01:11:56,400 --> 01:12:00,400
examiner's report, Miss Amy had 
been raped and probably died of 

1216
01:12:00,400 --> 01:12:03,160
multiple blows to the head and 
strangulation. 

1217
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:07,440
Police officials compared notes 
concerning this and the murder 

1218
01:12:07,440 --> 01:12:11,360
of Melissa Smith of Midvale and 
the disappearance of Deborah 

1219
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:14,680
Kent of Bountiful. 
This was an extremely trying 

1220
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:17,880
case with bickering and 
innuendos thrown about. 

1221
01:12:18,480 --> 01:12:22,360
He's talking about people saying
people accusing him and and Owen

1222
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:24,840
Kornberg of disposing the the 
evidence. 

1223
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:31,920
This this is an unsolved case. 
Many officers have attributed it

1224
01:12:31,920 --> 01:12:36,280
to Ted Bundy, the so-called 
serial killer who had been in 

1225
01:12:36,280 --> 01:12:41,920
this area. 
I'm not so certain that's it. 

1226
01:12:42,320 --> 01:12:45,840
Well, I mean, if you would have 
done your job, we probably would

1227
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:49,200
be certain. 
If you and if you hadn't covered

1228
01:12:49,200 --> 01:12:50,920
up for the fact that you didn't 
know what the hell you were 

1229
01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:52,960
doing. 
Yeah, exactly. 

1230
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:56,440
Like, better to admit an 
accident than you know. 

1231
01:12:56,440 --> 01:13:00,200
And that's where I think that 
with anybody, like, OK, the 

1232
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:03,520
suing should only happen when 
it's non nefarious. 

1233
01:13:03,520 --> 01:13:07,000
If it's nefarious 'cause you're 
trying to cover it up or you're 

1234
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:09,440
trying to help somebody get out 
of prison or whatever, then 

1235
01:13:09,440 --> 01:13:12,480
that's a different thing. 
But if they had had a law where 

1236
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:15,720
they wouldn't go to prison 
because of an accident, OK, if 

1237
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:19,080
it was truly an accident and 
maybe they're covering for their

1238
01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:22,880
secretary or who knows what the 
cleaned up or whatever. 

1239
01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:26,920
If there was no fault laws, we 
would have a lot more knowledge 

1240
01:13:26,920 --> 01:13:30,920
in many cases. 
But that's not the way it is so.

1241
01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:35,720
The interesting thing came up, 
the interesting thing that comes

1242
01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:40,760
up is in all the little details 
of the of of the things where 

1243
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:46,360
you can play a straight case for
everything that happened here 

1244
01:13:46,360 --> 01:13:50,000
was exactly as you would imagine
it happened if it was just very,

1245
01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:52,760
a very normal crime, a series of
crimes. 

1246
01:13:53,280 --> 01:13:57,280
And then all of these wild 
stories like Ted Bundy used to 

1247
01:13:57,280 --> 01:13:59,320
keep girls down the basement of 
the house. 

1248
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:02,040
He used to keep them in some 
cellar up in the Canyon. 

1249
01:14:02,200 --> 01:14:04,920
He used to keep them in this, 
you know, down here in this 

1250
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:08,080
Canyon or down in the Canyon and
Provo in The Cave down there, 

1251
01:14:08,440 --> 01:14:12,680
you know, on all these things. 
And then even now, little things

1252
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:18,400
like this guy, Captain Borax, he
took that boy who had bought Ted

1253
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:22,800
Bundy's car up to the house in 
the Avenues. 

1254
01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:27,520
And he said and he and there and
they went up to Ted Bundy's 

1255
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:31,840
apartment because that boy when 
he bought the car, Ted Bundy was

1256
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:33,720
like, hey, I want you to drive 
me back to my house. 

1257
01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:35,080
I don't have a right back to my 
house. 

1258
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:38,600
So they drove him back up to 
that house and they went 

1259
01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:42,640
upstairs for a while probably. 
Probably smoke some weed. 

1260
01:14:42,760 --> 01:14:46,480
Yeah, because to nail his story 
right, like here we go. 

1261
01:14:47,080 --> 01:14:50,960
Now he goes in to the apartment 
and he says, here's the thing. 

1262
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:57,600
He notes something that Larry 
Anderson notes at that when they

1263
01:14:57,600 --> 01:15:02,080
went over to Ted's for 
Thanksgiving dinner, basically 

1264
01:15:02,280 --> 01:15:07,760
with this composite sketch in 
hand and start talking about the

1265
01:15:07,880 --> 01:15:11,040
this, you've heard this, the Ted
Killer might be in Utah. 

1266
01:15:11,320 --> 01:15:14,080
Is this guy Ted the Ted Killer? 
Look, here's this. 

1267
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:17,800
They showed that they're passing
around this composite sketch. 

1268
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:22,600
And hey, your name's Ted. 
Yeah, and but he says we we 

1269
01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:26,400
would hold them up to the 
sketch, to each person around 

1270
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:27,240
the room. 
Is it you? 

1271
01:15:27,240 --> 01:15:28,600
Is it you? 
Is it you? 

1272
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:30,600
Oh, I bet it's Al. 
Look at Al. 

1273
01:15:30,920 --> 01:15:32,280
And then it's like, what about 
you, Ted? 

1274
01:15:32,280 --> 01:15:33,800
Oh, Ted. 
Ted. 

1275
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:36,120
Ted is the Ted killer. 
Hey, come here, Ted. 

1276
01:15:36,840 --> 01:15:41,680
Like, Oh my gosh. 
And, and I don't think he had 

1277
01:15:41,680 --> 01:15:47,320
the ability, knowing his 
personality to keep someone, 

1278
01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:50,000
like you said, because he was 
known to have OCD. 

1279
01:15:50,240 --> 01:15:53,560
He was known to have like this 
really compulsive behavior. 

1280
01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:57,320
He was known to be really like 
paranoid. 

1281
01:15:57,320 --> 01:16:01,720
And I just don't like you said, 
I don't think that fits his his 

1282
01:16:01,720 --> 01:16:05,520
MO if we want to go there. 
Like I just can't see him doing 

1283
01:16:05,520 --> 01:16:07,680
it. 
I'm very convinced that he had 

1284
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:11,320
obsessive compulsive disorder. 
Too many things just were too 

1285
01:16:11,320 --> 01:16:15,600
consistent with it. 
Well, so, but they said, but his

1286
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:19,880
missionaries made frequent 
mention that he was a very good 

1287
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:22,280
cook. 
He was a gourmet cook. 

1288
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:26,560
And he was one of these people 
who kept pots and pans hanging 

1289
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:30,760
on a pot, hangers on the wall. 
That's what's the perspective of

1290
01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:33,680
the Mormon missionaries who are 
trying to convert him, right? 

1291
01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:37,200
It's one of those people who 
has, you know, special pots for 

1292
01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:40,960
things and pans for things. 
It's like, you know, takes care 

1293
01:16:40,960 --> 01:16:43,320
of his stuff because he uses it 
to cook for people. 

1294
01:16:44,000 --> 01:16:48,680
That boy who bought the car, his
first thing he said he knows 

1295
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:51,760
when he walked into the 
apartment was that he was that 

1296
01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:56,360
he, there were meat hooks 
hanging from the wall and that 

1297
01:16:56,360 --> 01:16:59,640
he would Ted Bundy that he had 
bicycle wheels. 

1298
01:16:59,640 --> 01:17:03,320
He had like this thing where he 
took bicycle wheels and then he 

1299
01:17:03,320 --> 01:17:07,520
put least into the spokes of the
bicycle wheels these meat hooks.

1300
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:11,720
And then he would hang the pots 
and pans on these meat hooks, 

1301
01:17:11,960 --> 01:17:14,920
unlike this elaborate display in
his apartment. 

1302
01:17:15,440 --> 01:17:17,560
And then he's like, what a weird
thing. 

1303
01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:19,640
He's like, it's strange. 
Nobody else noticed that they 

1304
01:17:19,640 --> 01:17:22,600
were meat hooks that he hung. 
On he's like. 

1305
01:17:23,280 --> 01:17:26,080
The creepiest things like who 
does that? 

1306
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:29,720
So then they go down in this 
video, you can see in the video,

1307
01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:32,480
they go downstairs and they 
convince one of the people 

1308
01:17:32,480 --> 01:17:34,520
they're not supposed to do this,
according to the property 

1309
01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:37,600
manager who manages the 
property, to let them down into 

1310
01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:40,040
the cellar where Buddy 
supposedly kept girls. 

1311
01:17:40,360 --> 01:17:42,480
And it's that's usually 
padlocked. 

1312
01:17:42,480 --> 01:17:46,640
Nobody's allowed down there. 
So they somehow got the padlock 

1313
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:48,640
off. 
He's like, he's like, I'm not 

1314
01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:51,960
telling, you're not telling. 
But we got down into the cellar 

1315
01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:54,000
and they did. 
They got footage down in the 

1316
01:17:54,000 --> 01:17:57,440
cellar. 
And one of Captain Borax, he's 

1317
01:17:57,440 --> 01:17:59,760
down there and his foot strikes 
something metal. 

1318
01:18:00,280 --> 01:18:03,280
He reaches down, picks it up. 
Guess what? 

1319
01:18:03,280 --> 01:18:05,520
It's a meat hook. 
No way. 

1320
01:18:08,040 --> 01:18:11,760
And he shows it to the guy, and 
he's like, is that the meat that

1321
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:15,720
you saw in his apartment? 
And the guy flipped. 

1322
01:18:15,840 --> 01:18:18,640
He's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, 
whoa, whoa, whoa. 

1323
01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:21,640
Weird. 
I'm not no, I'm not even. 

1324
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:23,720
He got very quiet all of a 
sudden. 

1325
01:18:24,160 --> 01:18:26,920
So it's like, OK, is this a 
gimmick? 

1326
01:18:26,960 --> 01:18:29,800
I asked him like, come on, man, 
did you really find, did you 

1327
01:18:29,800 --> 01:18:32,320
really find a meat hook in the 
seller? 

1328
01:18:32,440 --> 01:18:35,960
And he's like, Oh my gosh, he's 
like, I'm telling you, Joe, He's

1329
01:18:35,960 --> 01:18:38,360
like I'm telling. 
You and it was probably like old

1330
01:18:38,360 --> 01:18:41,360
and shit like all gross. 
Like all crusty? 

1331
01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:46,040
Yep. 
It's like I'm not a person now. 

1332
01:18:46,120 --> 01:18:49,840
I tell people all the time. 
I sell my subscribers. 

1333
01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:53,040
I'm like agency. 
I don't go for conspiracy 

1334
01:18:53,040 --> 01:18:55,520
theories. 
And I'm not 100. 

1335
01:18:55,520 --> 01:18:59,520
Percent weird. 
For conspiracy, if there's 

1336
01:18:59,520 --> 01:19:05,080
receipts, if there's receipts. 
And who's to say, you know, this

1337
01:19:05,080 --> 01:19:08,120
is, this is, but that's weird. 
That's very weird that. 

1338
01:19:08,360 --> 01:19:11,240
Is really creepy, especially 
where it was locked up and he 

1339
01:19:11,240 --> 01:19:14,520
doesn't let people go in there 
and like it's not like people 

1340
01:19:14,520 --> 01:19:18,520
are just like touring or he's 
making money by putting like I'm

1341
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:20,120
going to go put a meat hook in 
there. 

1342
01:19:20,120 --> 01:19:21,960
He probably didn't even know 
that story. 

1343
01:19:22,000 --> 01:19:25,120
Like I've never heard that story
from the kid like I. 

1344
01:19:25,120 --> 01:19:26,720
Asked him, I said, did you 
interview? 

1345
01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:32,200
I said, you know, they say that 
the Supreme Court justices, the 

1346
01:19:32,200 --> 01:19:36,880
Supreme Court judge's daughter 
lived downstairs from Ted Bundy.

1347
01:19:36,960 --> 01:19:39,080
He's like, oh, yeah. 
And she's a total pie. 

1348
01:19:39,680 --> 01:19:41,760
He's they got that from the 
other people live there and the 

1349
01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:45,360
people live next door. 
And I said, I said, did you 

1350
01:19:45,360 --> 01:19:47,960
interview her? 
He's like, oh, no, you don't 

1351
01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:51,040
know. 
I'm like, no, what? 

1352
01:19:51,040 --> 01:19:56,760
He's like he's she's missing. 
Oh my gosh, was she brunette? 

1353
01:19:57,800 --> 01:20:02,840
I I don't remember, He's like. 
He says, But here's the thing, 

1354
01:20:03,280 --> 01:20:07,000
Somebody who was who lived 
across from Ted at the time told

1355
01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:11,640
me that Ted used to just show up
at her door when she was high. 

1356
01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:15,800
He which was like all the time. 
And he knew she'd let him in and

1357
01:20:15,800 --> 01:20:18,320
she let him do whatever he 
wanted. 

1358
01:20:19,120 --> 01:20:22,120
And I was like the Supreme Court
judge's daughter. 

1359
01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:25,520
And he's like, yeah, I'm like. 
Jeez, man. 

1360
01:20:26,760 --> 01:20:30,160
And I'm like. 
You would think he would care 

1361
01:20:30,160 --> 01:20:33,400
about his daughter, like where 
she is or whatnot, you know? 

1362
01:20:34,160 --> 01:20:39,440
It's weird. 70s were crazy, but 
it's like little things like 

1363
01:20:39,440 --> 01:20:42,080
that. 
I mean, their neighbors have had

1364
01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:47,600
said at the time that Bundy 
would would take his Volkswagen 

1365
01:20:47,760 --> 01:20:52,120
every weekend or so and he would
take all the seats out of it and

1366
01:20:52,120 --> 01:20:55,320
he would hose it down and start 
getting there and start 

1367
01:20:55,320 --> 01:20:59,240
scrubbing it. 
And, and I, I told him that. 

1368
01:20:59,240 --> 01:21:00,920
And he's like, I hadn't heard 
that. 

1369
01:21:00,920 --> 01:21:03,120
I'm like, you hadn't. 
He's like, no, I hadn't heard 

1370
01:21:03,120 --> 01:21:04,640
that. 
And I'm like, well, you know, 

1371
01:21:04,840 --> 01:21:05,800
you're not going to go drive 
him. 

1372
01:21:05,800 --> 01:21:08,200
I mean evidence. 
Right. 

1373
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:12,320
He's like, he's like, you know, 
I'm like, you know, he was like 

1374
01:21:12,320 --> 01:21:15,000
a neat freak, right? 
And he's like that definitely, 

1375
01:21:15,200 --> 01:21:16,600
right. 
That's that OCD. 

1376
01:21:16,600 --> 01:21:19,840
And the cross, the cross 
contamination of the pans and 

1377
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:23,160
the meat hooks and the cooking. 
That's fantastical. 

1378
01:21:23,400 --> 01:21:25,800
I bet those missionary people 
wish they hadn't eaten there 

1379
01:21:25,800 --> 01:21:29,720
then. 
But they will even the women at 

1380
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:33,800
the the women who went to the 
family home evenings would talk 

1381
01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:36,160
about it's like, oh, Ted, oh, 
Ted could cook. 

1382
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:38,000
Oh, he had he was such a good 
cook. 

1383
01:21:38,240 --> 01:21:39,920
But his dad was a cook in the 
army. 

1384
01:21:39,920 --> 01:21:42,320
He obviously taught him how to 
cook and. 

1385
01:21:43,280 --> 01:21:45,320
Hopefully he wasn't cooking 
anything weird. 

1386
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:49,840
I don't know. 
I mean, you know. 

1387
01:21:53,000 --> 01:21:56,480
I needed to talk to you, Heidi, 
to get that one bugging in my 

1388
01:21:56,520 --> 01:22:00,160
brain. 
Yeah, you know, there's those 

1389
01:22:00,160 --> 01:22:02,120
killers that fed their 
neighbors. 

1390
01:22:02,840 --> 01:22:07,200
Well, supposedly a person. 
They had a big cookout. 

1391
01:22:08,280 --> 01:22:10,600
Titus Andronicus action going. 
On Yucca. 

1392
01:22:10,640 --> 01:22:14,400
Yucca. 
Yeah, well, I guess it's salty. 

1393
01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:20,080
I don't even know, but that 
sounds like something a 

1394
01:22:20,240 --> 01:22:22,600
psychopath would do. 
And then they'd revel in it 

1395
01:22:22,600 --> 01:22:24,560
later. 
Like I made those Mormons eat 

1396
01:22:24,560 --> 01:22:28,680
that person. 
There and and that's, that's 

1397
01:22:28,680 --> 01:22:33,120
been an interesting all the 
trophy taking stories that came 

1398
01:22:33,120 --> 01:22:36,720
out of it 'cause we know OK. 
So he kept the credit card 

1399
01:22:36,720 --> 01:22:40,640
receipts from when he went to 
Colorado and killed those girls 

1400
01:22:40,640 --> 01:22:44,080
out in Colorado. 
And, and again Captain Boricks 

1401
01:22:44,080 --> 01:22:46,560
and I'm talking about him like 
he's like who keeps credit card 

1402
01:22:46,560 --> 01:22:49,800
receipts? 
And I'm like, I, I had the same 

1403
01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:53,720
thought when it, when it's, it's
like what, you know, would you 

1404
01:22:53,720 --> 01:22:57,000
keep all the charges, all the 
bills from all especially I 

1405
01:22:57,000 --> 01:23:02,520
said, if you'd been to Colorado 
to kill girls, I got you. 

1406
01:23:02,520 --> 01:23:08,800
I'm going to bomb. 
I, I, if you've gone to Colorado

1407
01:23:08,800 --> 01:23:13,400
to kill, to kill these girls and
every gas station that you went 

1408
01:23:13,440 --> 01:23:18,040
to was on that credit card bill.
Yeah, you wouldn't want evidence

1409
01:23:18,040 --> 01:23:23,120
in your house, like, oh, here's 
where I was, you know? 

1410
01:23:23,600 --> 01:23:27,520
Except that this kleptomania 
thing comes back up. 

1411
01:23:27,520 --> 01:23:32,360
It's like it was, it was about 
taking something from somebody 

1412
01:23:32,360 --> 01:23:35,480
and seeing it took that from 
you, you know? 

1413
01:23:36,320 --> 01:23:39,280
Well, and the fact that he was 
so arrogant, I don't think he 

1414
01:23:39,280 --> 01:23:42,240
ever thought that it would 
matter because he like talked 

1415
01:23:42,240 --> 01:23:47,000
his way out of everything. 
I mean, and he did like he 

1416
01:23:47,000 --> 01:23:52,520
literally had a kid in prison. 
When you say he had a kid in 

1417
01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:58,200
prison, he one of his fans and 
he had fans then he's got them 

1418
01:23:58,200 --> 01:24:01,040
today. 
I've talked to these women who 

1419
01:24:01,040 --> 01:24:04,280
are like, Oh my God, Oh my God, 
I'm like. 

1420
01:24:04,560 --> 01:24:08,200
You're not that cute. 
Like honestly, I just don't see 

1421
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:10,040
it. 
I said the same thing. 

1422
01:24:10,440 --> 01:24:12,320
I was talking Captain Parks 
about the same thing. 

1423
01:24:12,320 --> 01:24:14,640
And I said, and I've said I 
don't get it. 

1424
01:24:14,640 --> 01:24:16,600
I'm going to be honest with you.
And he's like, you're better 

1425
01:24:16,600 --> 01:24:18,560
looking than him. 
I'm like, well, yeah, that's 

1426
01:24:18,560 --> 01:24:21,840
true, but that's not fair. 
Yeah, he's like awkward. 

1427
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:24,720
His eyes are too close together.
He's got a unibrow. 

1428
01:24:24,720 --> 01:24:30,400
His nose is really pointy. 
He's very stern looking in a 

1429
01:24:30,400 --> 01:24:35,920
way, like a pointy person, you 
know, Seems very rigid. 

1430
01:24:35,920 --> 01:24:39,120
I don't know. 
I never thought it was cute. 

1431
01:24:39,240 --> 01:24:42,960
The Sully County investigator in
charge of the investigation that

1432
01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:46,520
really took him down for the 
Carroll Duranti described him as

1433
01:24:46,680 --> 01:24:50,440
a social chameleon. 
Which again goes back to this 

1434
01:24:50,440 --> 01:24:54,280
thing that we said he's like 
when we went to interview him, 

1435
01:24:54,800 --> 01:24:57,440
like the first time between the 
first time, the first time we 

1436
01:24:57,440 --> 01:24:59,680
came to interview him and then 
the second time when we came 

1437
01:24:59,680 --> 01:25:03,160
around with a warrant to search 
his apartment, he had cut his 

1438
01:25:03,160 --> 01:25:06,560
hair slightly differently, 
combed it slightly differently 

1439
01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:08,560
and looked like a completely 
different person. 

1440
01:25:09,440 --> 01:25:12,240
And so it was like, and then 
then he showed up. 

1441
01:25:12,240 --> 01:25:17,760
We told we gave him a summons to
appear and to the for the 

1442
01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:19,680
lineup, the lineup. 
Yeah. 

1443
01:25:21,960 --> 01:25:25,200
He had grown his his beard out a
little bit differently, combed 

1444
01:25:25,200 --> 01:25:28,160
his hair from the other 
direction, wore very different 

1445
01:25:28,160 --> 01:25:31,880
clothing than the one then he 
used to wear, he normally wore. 

1446
01:25:32,320 --> 01:25:35,800
And they they'd taken an 
inventory of his clothes and 

1447
01:25:35,800 --> 01:25:38,960
they're like this, this wasn't 
clothing that, you know, that 

1448
01:25:38,960 --> 01:25:41,280
was like his clothing that he 
had in his apartment. 

1449
01:25:42,480 --> 01:25:45,760
So it's like, so basically 
they're cute and saying he went 

1450
01:25:45,760 --> 01:25:50,520
out and bought like a costume. 
Like to be different. 

1451
01:25:50,520 --> 01:25:54,600
Yeah, that's so weird that they,
I mean, if anybody was going to 

1452
01:25:54,600 --> 01:25:57,720
be prosecuted, I think the 
people that let them make a baby

1453
01:25:57,720 --> 01:26:00,960
on death row should be, you 
know, part of it. 

1454
01:26:01,200 --> 01:26:04,920
I think that they said that he'd
like paid other inmates to like 

1455
01:26:04,920 --> 01:26:09,400
surround him and her and 
basically they just went up 

1456
01:26:09,400 --> 01:26:10,960
against the wall and just went 
at it. 

1457
01:26:11,640 --> 01:26:14,360
Isn't that weird? 
Like that's just like the 

1458
01:26:14,360 --> 01:26:18,400
craziest and then on top of it 
that she is never came out. 

1459
01:26:18,400 --> 01:26:22,480
You would think by some point 
that she would come out and be 

1460
01:26:22,480 --> 01:26:26,080
like, Yep, well, this is what it
is, and make some money and then

1461
01:26:26,080 --> 01:26:28,720
disappear again. 
You know she's got. 

1462
01:26:29,560 --> 01:26:32,560
The wife or the daughter, The. 
Daughter. 

1463
01:26:32,680 --> 01:26:35,080
The daughter. 
From what I understand that 

1464
01:26:35,080 --> 01:26:37,520
daughter just wants nothing to 
do with it. 

1465
01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:39,720
She just wants the away from the
limelight. 

1466
01:26:40,200 --> 01:26:43,760
Can you even imagine like, oh 
sorry, this is your dad? 

1467
01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:46,800
Like he's. 
Ted Bundy's kid conceived on 

1468
01:26:46,800 --> 01:26:48,600
death row. 
Gross. 

1469
01:26:49,360 --> 01:26:51,800
I can't even. 
And she had brown, really dark 

1470
01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:54,160
hair 'cause there was pictures 
of her when she was little. 

1471
01:26:54,640 --> 01:26:57,880
And it's just, yeah, she's kind 
of surprising. 

1472
01:26:58,080 --> 01:27:01,880
So strange. 
Like the whole thing is actually

1473
01:27:02,120 --> 01:27:06,560
really interesting as far as 
like, how many times he was able

1474
01:27:06,560 --> 01:27:09,880
to not do what he was supposed 
to do and just give him the 

1475
01:27:09,880 --> 01:27:13,480
middle finger like over and 
like, oh, I want a kid. 

1476
01:27:13,480 --> 01:27:15,520
I'm just going to make one. 
I'm going to jump out this 

1477
01:27:15,520 --> 01:27:18,000
window. 
I'm going to just, you know, And

1478
01:27:18,000 --> 01:27:20,880
even when they caught him, the 
one time he was, like, laughing,

1479
01:27:20,960 --> 01:27:26,320
he was like, right. 
I mean, and I was like, what on 

1480
01:27:26,320 --> 01:27:28,040
earth is he doing? 
Like, yeah. 

1481
01:27:28,040 --> 01:27:31,200
I mean, he didn't even care. 
He was like, hey, hey, you know.

1482
01:27:31,240 --> 01:27:33,560
Is that common knowledge about 
the window jumping out the 

1483
01:27:33,560 --> 01:27:35,360
window? 
Do you think people know about 

1484
01:27:35,360 --> 01:27:37,880
that? 
I don't know if they do, we 

1485
01:27:37,880 --> 01:27:40,600
should probably mention it. 
I I think it's hilarious. 

1486
01:27:40,600 --> 01:27:43,400
I mean especially the fact he 
could have really gotten away. 

1487
01:27:43,400 --> 01:27:47,160
I almost feel like he just did 
it to be a Dick and because he 

1488
01:27:47,160 --> 01:27:51,280
didn't get far, you know, like. 
Well, I mean, they didn't they, 

1489
01:27:51,680 --> 01:27:54,480
but I think they picked him up 
next in Florida though, because 

1490
01:27:54,480 --> 01:27:57,520
he killed more people. 
Yeah, but why even why? 

1491
01:27:57,640 --> 01:28:01,480
Like, why even mess with that? 
Get the hell out of Dodge, you 

1492
01:28:01,480 --> 01:28:05,440
know, and, and he's not 
concerned, you know, back then 

1493
01:28:05,520 --> 01:28:08,160
he could run for Mexico or 
Canada and really probably get 

1494
01:28:08,160 --> 01:28:10,640
there. 
Now that's the thing he could 

1495
01:28:10,640 --> 01:28:15,320
have not only did he not go to 
Canada and Mexico, that should 

1496
01:28:15,360 --> 01:28:20,760
that was a that's like strange. 
But then when he got to Florida,

1497
01:28:20,960 --> 01:28:26,760
he bought a Volkswagen Beetle or
he stole a Volkswagen Beetle off

1498
01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:29,000
of a guy. 
And it's like, what is it with 

1499
01:28:29,000 --> 01:28:32,240
you, guy? 
It's like, OK, we get it dude, 

1500
01:28:32,240 --> 01:28:36,440
you you've got like he can only 
do this with one car because he 

1501
01:28:36,440 --> 01:28:39,480
knows how that car is like or 
something. 

1502
01:28:39,600 --> 01:28:42,760
We all. 
Know but with this guy Captain 

1503
01:28:42,760 --> 01:28:47,200
Borax, he like drove past this 
garage that he discovered up in 

1504
01:28:47,200 --> 01:28:49,160
Salt Lake. 
It's a little for a little set 

1505
01:28:49,160 --> 01:28:54,440
off from the from the house 
where he had the apartment, he 

1506
01:28:54,440 --> 01:28:56,360
said. 
That's the garage right there 

1507
01:28:56,760 --> 01:29:00,800
where Ted Bundy apparently 
rented to keep his pickup. 

1508
01:29:01,480 --> 01:29:05,360
And we don't know the owner 
it's. 

1509
01:29:05,600 --> 01:29:08,120
With the evidence. 
As far as as far? 

1510
01:29:08,120 --> 01:29:12,480
As with Amy's evidence, yeah. 
Well, as far as we know, that 

1511
01:29:12,480 --> 01:29:14,960
truck is still in there. 
I asked him and I said, Oh my 

1512
01:29:15,760 --> 01:29:17,760
gosh, as far as you know, the 
truck could be in there, He 

1513
01:29:17,760 --> 01:29:18,560
said. 
It could be. 

1514
01:29:18,920 --> 01:29:19,880
I'm like. 
Wow. 

1515
01:29:21,520 --> 01:29:24,840
It said just know and. 
They, they just didn't want a 

1516
01:29:24,840 --> 01:29:28,680
subpoena for that. 
Like, I mean, come on now, 

1517
01:29:28,760 --> 01:29:30,960
that's pretty. 
But apparently they didn't know 

1518
01:29:30,960 --> 01:29:32,800
about the truck until 
afterwards. 

1519
01:29:32,800 --> 01:29:37,520
But Larry Anderson, the guy who 
hit who? 

1520
01:29:38,960 --> 01:29:42,600
The guy who converted Ted Bundy 
because he baptized Ted Bundy on

1521
01:29:42,600 --> 01:29:46,560
August 31st, 1975, when he 
finally had convinced them that 

1522
01:29:46,560 --> 01:29:49,920
he had quit drinking and quit 
smoking, which were the two 

1523
01:29:49,920 --> 01:29:51,520
reasons why he couldn't get 
baptized. 

1524
01:29:52,280 --> 01:29:57,800
And he said that when Ted 
called, called him and he's like

1525
01:29:57,920 --> 01:30:01,280
called him from jail and he's 
like, hey, I'm in trouble, I'm 

1526
01:30:01,280 --> 01:30:03,760
in jail. 
And he said we couldn't believe 

1527
01:30:03,760 --> 01:30:08,040
it. 
Like jail, Ted, how did you wind

1528
01:30:08,040 --> 01:30:11,320
up in jail? 
Teddy Boy, what could you have 

1529
01:30:11,320 --> 01:30:13,840
possibly done? 
Did you just smoke a doobie? 

1530
01:30:14,360 --> 01:30:18,240
And he says, get this, They 
think I'm the Ted Killer. 

1531
01:30:18,240 --> 01:30:20,400
Oh, ridiculous. 
Come. 

1532
01:30:20,600 --> 01:30:22,280
On Ted and. 
He's like. 

1533
01:30:22,320 --> 01:30:25,720
I'm I heard the Mormons rallied 
behind him that they super 

1534
01:30:25,720 --> 01:30:28,680
supported him. 
They raised, they raised the 

1535
01:30:28,680 --> 01:30:34,000
money to for him to put down 
10%, the 10% down he needed for 

1536
01:30:34,000 --> 01:30:36,720
bond. 
And then he needed and, but then

1537
01:30:36,720 --> 01:30:39,040
he had to put down collateral 
and as well. 

1538
01:30:39,240 --> 01:30:45,480
So he put down the Volkswagen 
that he then, but before he, but

1539
01:30:45,800 --> 01:30:49,760
before he could turn it in to 
get the to, to bring the title 

1540
01:30:49,760 --> 01:30:51,880
back, he said, I'll go get the 
title, I'll bring it back. 

1541
01:30:52,120 --> 01:30:55,440
He went and got a duplicate 
title and he brought it back and

1542
01:30:55,440 --> 01:30:59,880
brought a title and gave one 
title to the bondsman and took 

1543
01:30:59,880 --> 01:31:03,280
the duplicate title and used it 
to sell this support 17 year. 

1544
01:31:03,520 --> 01:31:04,360
Old Oh my gosh. 
Jeez. 

1545
01:31:06,560 --> 01:31:10,360
And told him not to register. 
It and don't, yeah, don't go 

1546
01:31:10,360 --> 01:31:13,120
alert anyone. 
And then on top of it, I wonder 

1547
01:31:13,120 --> 01:31:17,680
what their little church buddies
felt about when he was up doing 

1548
01:31:17,680 --> 01:31:21,920
all of his own lawyer work there
defending himself, which it was 

1549
01:31:21,920 --> 01:31:25,440
a nightmare and really creepy. 
It was so creepy. 

1550
01:31:25,720 --> 01:31:29,480
And I mean, especially with the 
girl that testified that got 

1551
01:31:29,480 --> 01:31:31,800
away. 
And you could just see it 

1552
01:31:31,800 --> 01:31:36,040
seething from his like, pores. 
I mean, they had to have known. 

1553
01:31:36,040 --> 01:31:37,920
They had to have known he was 
guilty. 

1554
01:31:38,360 --> 01:31:40,640
Like. 
It was so yeah, it. 

1555
01:31:40,840 --> 01:31:43,440
Was that was Carol Duranch? 
That was Carol. 

1556
01:31:43,680 --> 01:31:47,240
But here's the thing. 
When OK, so he calls Larry and 

1557
01:31:47,240 --> 01:31:51,280
tells Larry, you know, that I'm 
in this trouble. 

1558
01:31:51,280 --> 01:31:53,760
Larry's like, don't you worry. 
He goes and takes up a 

1559
01:31:53,760 --> 01:31:57,240
collection to get to get to post
bail for him. 

1560
01:31:57,720 --> 01:31:59,680
And so they and so they get 
bail. 

1561
01:31:59,680 --> 01:32:02,280
They post bail. 
But in the period of time 

1562
01:32:02,280 --> 01:32:06,880
between then when this period of
time between when they actually 

1563
01:32:06,880 --> 01:32:12,600
released Ted out on bail, he's 
trying to hide the car. 

1564
01:32:12,960 --> 01:32:15,560
He and he can't obviously 
because he's in jail. 

1565
01:32:16,000 --> 01:32:18,920
So he goes to Larry and he's 
like, this is where you can find

1566
01:32:18,920 --> 01:32:21,280
the keys to my Volkswagen in my 
apartment. 

1567
01:32:21,600 --> 01:32:24,960
I want you to go and take take 
the Volkswagen and hide it 

1568
01:32:24,960 --> 01:32:27,640
somewhere because I just don't 
want the police snooping around.

1569
01:32:27,640 --> 01:32:30,320
And if I can't be there and it's
like, don't worry, not a 

1570
01:32:30,360 --> 01:32:33,680
problem. 
And his missionary hid the car 

1571
01:32:34,160 --> 01:32:36,240
in their garage. 
Get this. 

1572
01:32:36,240 --> 01:32:39,560
Then the Salt Lake investigators
who are investigating, they go 

1573
01:32:39,560 --> 01:32:42,800
and investigate. 
It's like to at this, this house

1574
01:32:42,960 --> 01:32:46,320
where Larry Anderson lives with 
a bunch of his, his mission 

1575
01:32:46,320 --> 01:32:49,680
buddies and stuff, a bunch of 
people who went to university, 

1576
01:32:50,120 --> 01:32:54,000
University of Utah with. 
And he they come in, they come 

1577
01:32:54,000 --> 01:32:56,120
into the house and they're like,
we wanted to ask you some 

1578
01:32:56,120 --> 01:32:59,520
questions and that and they're 
like, what do you know about Ted

1579
01:32:59,520 --> 01:33:00,920
Bundy's Volkswagen? 
It's. 

1580
01:33:02,280 --> 01:33:04,920
In my garage. 
Don't know anything about it. 

1581
01:33:05,080 --> 01:33:05,720
Ted. 
Ted. 

1582
01:33:05,760 --> 01:33:09,120
Did Ted drive a Volkswagen? 
No, Ted has a pickup. 

1583
01:33:10,040 --> 01:33:14,280
See, I think he has a pickup and
it's in their garage, their 

1584
01:33:14,280 --> 01:33:17,280
lights. 
Oh my gosh, they should be in 

1585
01:33:17,280 --> 01:33:19,880
trouble for that man. 
I mean. 

1586
01:33:20,760 --> 01:33:24,320
And it's the the things that 
with evidence. 

1587
01:33:24,320 --> 01:33:27,880
And so the guy who's in charge 
of of the investigation down, 

1588
01:33:28,120 --> 01:33:30,040
Jerry, I'm trying to remember 
his last name. 

1589
01:33:31,040 --> 01:33:36,360
So this guy, Captain Borax, he 
tells me he finds out that a guy

1590
01:33:36,360 --> 01:33:39,840
who's like a collector of Ted 
Bundy stuff and like interested 

1591
01:33:39,840 --> 01:33:42,200
in Ted Bundy stuff and I think 
maybe wrote one of the 

1592
01:33:42,200 --> 01:33:46,760
biographies or something. 
He pays a lot of money one day 

1593
01:33:47,080 --> 01:33:50,720
to have this lead investigator 
Jerry, what's his name? 

1594
01:33:51,720 --> 01:33:57,400
I have a guy's name, but has him
come out to meet with him and 

1595
01:33:57,400 --> 01:33:59,040
he's like, I have something for 
you. 

1596
01:33:59,200 --> 01:34:03,120
And he paid a lot of money to 
have dinner with this guy after 

1597
01:34:03,120 --> 01:34:05,400
he's retired. 
He's like, I have something for 

1598
01:34:05,400 --> 01:34:06,520
you. 
And he's like, what? 

1599
01:34:06,680 --> 01:34:10,560
Well, what? 
He pulls out a leather bag with 

1600
01:34:10,840 --> 01:34:16,680
this with a ski mask and like, 
and then cuffs and gloves and 

1601
01:34:16,680 --> 01:34:18,280
stuff. 
And he's like, what is that? 

1602
01:34:18,280 --> 01:34:23,160
He's like, that's the stuff that
got Ted Bundy convicted of, of 

1603
01:34:23,160 --> 01:34:25,560
kidnapping in Utah all these 
years. 

1604
01:34:25,960 --> 01:34:28,760
I was years ago. 
I was like, how did you get it? 

1605
01:34:28,760 --> 01:34:30,400
He's like. 
Why do you have it? 

1606
01:34:30,440 --> 01:34:32,760
Yeah. 
Yeah, it's like, I'm like, So 

1607
01:34:32,760 --> 01:34:34,560
what? 
He can just walk in and out with

1608
01:34:34,720 --> 01:34:37,720
with evidence and he's like, 
apparently, apparently nobody's 

1609
01:34:37,720 --> 01:34:38,240
looking. 
At it. 

1610
01:34:38,240 --> 01:34:42,040
Oh my gosh. 
Well, and the fact that it's 

1611
01:34:42,040 --> 01:34:46,840
still so many open cases that 
are unsolved, like if it were 

1612
01:34:46,840 --> 01:34:50,240
just like everybody was, it was 
all done and everybody was 

1613
01:34:50,240 --> 01:34:53,440
definitely linked and blah, 
blah, blah on the bodies and OK,

1614
01:34:53,760 --> 01:34:58,400
but this is technically an open 
case in many instances, so. 

1615
01:34:58,400 --> 01:35:02,680
Yeah, well, most of his murders,
most of his murders are 

1616
01:35:02,680 --> 01:35:07,040
technically unsolved like this. 
Laurie Amy the MO fits and 

1617
01:35:07,040 --> 01:35:10,280
everybody assumes everybody. 
You look her up and you look up 

1618
01:35:10,280 --> 01:35:14,880
who is Laura Amy the every 
everywhere from Wikipedia to 

1619
01:35:15,360 --> 01:35:18,240
biographers will say 12th victim
of Ted Bundy. 

1620
01:35:18,680 --> 01:35:20,800
But that was. 
Well, and the fact that there 

1621
01:35:20,800 --> 01:35:25,080
was, there could be hair in the 
hat, there could be skin cells 

1622
01:35:25,080 --> 01:35:28,560
like why would they be messing 
with something that could be 

1623
01:35:28,560 --> 01:35:35,720
used for later, you know? 
Right now that we have now that 

1624
01:35:35,720 --> 01:35:38,440
we now that we have more, did 
more of the stuff. 

1625
01:35:38,720 --> 01:35:42,680
And I tell you about Debbie 
Kent's Patella, her, her 

1626
01:35:42,680 --> 01:35:44,720
kneecap, right? 
That was the only thing. 

1627
01:35:45,000 --> 01:35:48,040
So obviously, like wild animals 
have gone to her remains. 

1628
01:35:48,240 --> 01:35:50,640
Either that or Ted had chopped 
her up into pieces. 

1629
01:35:50,640 --> 01:35:52,920
But that doesn't seem consistent
with him. 

1630
01:35:52,920 --> 01:35:58,560
He was too much of A germaphobe.
And so they take that Patella. 

1631
01:35:58,920 --> 01:36:03,560
You know, what had happened was 
they had given it to her mother 

1632
01:36:04,280 --> 01:36:07,680
years ago, back in the 70s. 
And they're like, this is all 

1633
01:36:07,680 --> 01:36:09,880
that we could find. 
But we think it's your 

1634
01:36:09,880 --> 01:36:13,240
daughter's and and they're like,
so you'll at least have 

1635
01:36:13,240 --> 01:36:15,440
something to, you know, bury or 
something. 

1636
01:36:15,920 --> 01:36:22,960
And she she kept it in a drawer 
in her house and for years just 

1637
01:36:22,960 --> 01:36:24,480
kept it. 
You know, they couldn't, they 

1638
01:36:24,480 --> 01:36:25,880
couldn't bring themselves to 
bury it. 

1639
01:36:26,400 --> 01:36:30,840
And then it was years later that
somebody had asked her. 

1640
01:36:30,840 --> 01:36:34,440
They said, oh, it's too bad. 
I mean, if you buried that, you 

1641
01:36:34,440 --> 01:36:37,000
know, now we could probably DNA 
link it. 

1642
01:36:37,280 --> 01:36:39,280
She's like, it's not buried, we 
have it. 

1643
01:36:39,360 --> 01:36:41,800
In my jar. 
Hold on, let me get this out of 

1644
01:36:41,800 --> 01:36:43,200
the kitchen. 
OK, go for it. 

1645
01:36:46,080 --> 01:36:51,040
So what did you do with it? 
They they brought the DNA tested

1646
01:36:51,040 --> 01:36:53,880
it and they and they were able 
to prove that it was her, that 

1647
01:36:53,880 --> 01:36:57,280
it was her Patella. 
So it's like that's the closest 

1648
01:36:57,280 --> 01:36:59,960
evidence we have connecting 
because she was the one that one

1649
01:36:59,960 --> 01:37:05,560
of the ones that Bundy did it 
and they but they asked him, OK,

1650
01:37:05,600 --> 01:37:10,000
now here's the thing. 
She went missing on November 

1651
01:37:10,000 --> 01:37:13,120
8th. 
So that the weeks before, just 

1652
01:37:13,120 --> 01:37:17,720
the few weeks before the the 
before Laura Amy was discovered 

1653
01:37:18,520 --> 01:37:23,400
and when the Thanksgiving dinner
happened at Bundy's place and 

1654
01:37:23,400 --> 01:37:26,560
they asked him when they were 
interrogating him about it in 

1655
01:37:26,560 --> 01:37:31,080
prison, they said was Debbie 
Kent alive? 

1656
01:37:31,880 --> 01:37:34,080
Did did you take Debbie Kent 
home? 

1657
01:37:34,560 --> 01:37:39,040
And he said yes. 
And they said was she alive that

1658
01:37:39,040 --> 01:37:41,840
night? 
And he said she was for part of 

1659
01:37:41,840 --> 01:37:45,960
it. 
And it's like, OK, so he's 

1660
01:37:46,240 --> 01:37:50,640
basically claimed, yeah, he took
her home to this house. 

1661
01:37:50,800 --> 01:37:54,440
She was UN alive and. 
Killed her in that apartment 

1662
01:37:54,440 --> 01:38:00,560
that night and and then drove 
her remains down to Sandpique 

1663
01:38:00,560 --> 01:38:04,200
County and stashed her in a in a
Canyon down Sandpique County. 

1664
01:38:05,040 --> 01:38:07,760
Wow. 
Doesn't fit his MO the. 

1665
01:38:08,040 --> 01:38:12,160
Pink Palace still up? 
Is it still a thing? 

1666
01:38:12,400 --> 01:38:16,480
I filmed in front of it. 
I went, I went up there and in 

1667
01:38:16,480 --> 01:38:19,600
the, in the first episode of 
Blood Atonement on Hellfire 

1668
01:38:19,600 --> 01:38:23,840
agency and you can, and you can 
see this, this part you can 

1669
01:38:23,840 --> 01:38:26,680
actually see on the YouTube 
vision version for free. 

1670
01:38:26,840 --> 01:38:29,960
But of course it's on the 
expanded version that's on at 

1671
01:38:29,960 --> 01:38:33,920
the agency also. 
But I, I, I'm like walking, it 

1672
01:38:33,920 --> 01:38:38,720
was like one day in 1974, blah, 
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 2 

1673
01:38:38,720 --> 01:38:42,040
Mormon missionaries who knocked 
on the door of this house. 

1674
01:38:42,320 --> 01:38:44,920
And so like, it's going to Utah 
and it's the right. 

1675
01:38:45,320 --> 01:38:48,640
Thing could you imagine having 
to live in the apartment like 

1676
01:38:48,640 --> 01:38:52,240
there should be? 
I think they have to give like I

1677
01:38:52,240 --> 01:38:55,280
know they do for homes, like if 
you're going to buy one, but I 

1678
01:38:55,280 --> 01:38:57,360
don't know if they have to for 
rentals. 

1679
01:38:57,480 --> 01:39:01,040
That's actually creepy. 
Like who's going to live there 

1680
01:39:01,040 --> 01:39:03,840
in that particular one? 
Yeah, I think that that 

1681
01:39:04,080 --> 01:39:07,960
apartment was unoccupied when 
they went up there to film in 

1682
01:39:07,960 --> 01:39:10,280
it. 
But like downstairs and across 

1683
01:39:10,280 --> 01:39:12,000
the way, those apartments are 
all rented. 

1684
01:39:12,000 --> 01:39:14,560
People live there. 
That's I. 

1685
01:39:14,680 --> 01:39:16,360
Asked him. 
I said that cool. 

1686
01:39:16,760 --> 01:39:20,040
I said that cool goth chick who 
who was like giving you guys the

1687
01:39:20,040 --> 01:39:23,120
tour of that of that apartment. 
He's like tour. 

1688
01:39:23,400 --> 01:39:25,160
There's no tour. 
And like, oh. 

1689
01:39:25,440 --> 01:39:28,200
She lived there. 
He's like, she lives downstairs 

1690
01:39:28,760 --> 01:39:31,160
and I'm like, so she wasn't 
giving you a tour of the 

1691
01:39:31,160 --> 01:39:32,360
apartment? 
You're like, no, she was 

1692
01:39:32,360 --> 01:39:33,360
curious. 
Like the rest of us. 

1693
01:39:33,480 --> 01:39:34,400
Like what's going? 
On here. 

1694
01:39:34,400 --> 01:39:37,440
Oh my gosh. 
She just rolls up on him and 

1695
01:39:37,440 --> 01:39:39,440
she's like, hey, what are you 
doing? 

1696
01:39:40,280 --> 01:39:42,000
You want to go? 
You want? 

1697
01:39:42,000 --> 01:39:44,720
What do you guys want? 
We were hoping to go into Ted 

1698
01:39:44,720 --> 01:39:46,480
Bundy's apartment. 
Let's do it, man. 

1699
01:39:47,840 --> 01:39:53,000
Like, I know a guy, I know the 
manager, I know a guy that's 

1700
01:39:53,120 --> 01:39:54,720
great. 
Oh my gosh. 

1701
01:39:55,120 --> 01:39:56,080
Yeah. 
He. 

1702
01:39:56,280 --> 01:40:03,080
I think of all the people that 
were ever, I mean, not not ever,

1703
01:40:03,080 --> 01:40:07,000
ever, but he was one of the most
fascinating because of his 

1704
01:40:07,000 --> 01:40:10,720
charisma, because so many people
were like, he couldn't pop. 

1705
01:40:10,800 --> 01:40:14,800
No, that's impossible. 
He's not like when you look at 

1706
01:40:14,800 --> 01:40:18,120
the Green River Killer person, 
like say that for example, you 

1707
01:40:18,120 --> 01:40:20,000
look at him and go, Yep, he's a 
killer. 

1708
01:40:20,240 --> 01:40:25,520
Like on the first time I saw his
picture, I was like, yeah, I I 

1709
01:40:25,520 --> 01:40:28,880
could see it. 
You know, he looks scary and. 

1710
01:40:29,160 --> 01:40:32,600
Or other people, you know, 
Dahmer, he didn't look right. 

1711
01:40:32,600 --> 01:40:36,240
There's no way he looked right. 
And so all these different 

1712
01:40:36,240 --> 01:40:38,800
people. 
But Bundy, he just there was, he

1713
01:40:38,800 --> 01:40:41,920
just didn't really. 
It wasn't the same. 

1714
01:40:42,320 --> 01:40:45,160
But the interesting one of the 
interesting things in the Mormon

1715
01:40:45,160 --> 01:40:52,400
side of this, so Ted Bundy gets 
so Michael priests, if I, if I'm

1716
01:40:52,400 --> 01:40:55,720
remembering the name correctly, 
was the stake president who has 

1717
01:40:55,720 --> 01:41:02,760
signed Larry Anderson and John, 
I forget John's last name to be 

1718
01:41:02,760 --> 01:41:05,800
the state missionaries who 
convert Ted Bundy in the process

1719
01:41:05,840 --> 01:41:10,160
of their teaching. 
Ted the discussions and stopping

1720
01:41:10,160 --> 01:41:14,760
basically discussion for because
he can't, he can't seem to shake

1721
01:41:15,000 --> 01:41:18,240
the smoking and drinking he 
gets. 

1722
01:41:18,560 --> 01:41:23,400
He they, they continue to invite
him out to things like a trip. 

1723
01:41:23,760 --> 01:41:27,800
They did a trip up to, I want to
say Bear Lake and they rented in

1724
01:41:27,800 --> 01:41:32,000
a like a little cabin out of 
Bear Lake, which, you know, lots

1725
01:41:32,000 --> 01:41:35,160
of people from this area do. 
That's a that's a very popular 

1726
01:41:35,160 --> 01:41:39,000
thing trip to do. 
And so they're go, so they rent 

1727
01:41:39,000 --> 01:41:43,040
A like a cabin or like a like a 
series of cabins, like a little 

1728
01:41:43,040 --> 01:41:48,000
camp out up in at Bear Lake. 
And Ted's invited. 

1729
01:41:48,600 --> 01:41:53,520
And the process of that, the 
Salt Lake police is either the 

1730
01:41:53,520 --> 01:41:57,280
county police, the County 
Sheriff's Office or the Salt 

1731
01:41:57,280 --> 01:41:58,920
Lake police. 
But I think it's the Sheriff's 

1732
01:41:58,920 --> 01:42:04,400
Office contacts Michael Priest 
and asks him and tells him, 

1733
01:42:04,400 --> 01:42:10,560
listen, your trip, we, you can't
tell anybody about this. 

1734
01:42:10,560 --> 01:42:15,720
Certainly nobody inside the 
church, but we are going to be 

1735
01:42:15,720 --> 01:42:18,560
surveilling this trip that 
you're having up there because 

1736
01:42:18,560 --> 01:42:25,880
one of your, one of the people 
on this trip is currently a 

1737
01:42:25,880 --> 01:42:30,080
person of interest in a murder. 
And it's like what? 

1738
01:42:30,320 --> 01:42:34,640
And they're like, we don't know.
We don't know, but we think that

1739
01:42:34,760 --> 01:42:39,320
this the one of the people 
inside, this may be the guy 

1740
01:42:39,320 --> 01:42:41,080
who's going around killing these
girls. 

1741
01:42:41,080 --> 01:42:44,000
Here's my question for you. 
You get this information from 

1742
01:42:44,000 --> 01:42:46,800
the this dude. 
Do you still go on the trip? 

1743
01:42:46,800 --> 01:42:49,480
Because I'm out, I'm staying. 
Home. 

1744
01:42:49,480 --> 01:42:52,480
Home, there's no. 
Way. 

1745
01:42:53,080 --> 01:42:55,040
The state president's not going 
on the trip. 

1746
01:42:55,280 --> 01:42:58,960
The only people going on the 
trip are these 20 something 

1747
01:42:58,960 --> 01:43:06,480
girls and these 20 something 
guys and Ted Bundy, all of them 

1748
01:43:06,480 --> 01:43:10,040
members of the church, all of 
them well known to each other, 

1749
01:43:10,240 --> 01:43:13,000
and then this guy, Ted Bundy, 
and they're just like. 

1750
01:43:13,000 --> 01:43:17,360
And you don't sound the alarm 
like, hey, my people might be in

1751
01:43:17,360 --> 01:43:20,880
danger, you know? 
But they told them specifically 

1752
01:43:20,880 --> 01:43:22,440
not to. 
So I was like, Oh my gosh. 

1753
01:43:23,960 --> 01:43:26,960
Oh my gosh. 
And then other people, other 

1754
01:43:26,960 --> 01:43:30,960
people from the from that, from 
that trip said that they noticed

1755
01:43:31,600 --> 01:43:33,680
that they were cars following 
them. 

1756
01:43:33,680 --> 01:43:37,080
And they kept pointing out, it's
like, gosh, I'm just, you know, 

1757
01:43:37,360 --> 01:43:41,200
a guy could get a paranoid, you 
know, idea that he was being 

1758
01:43:41,200 --> 01:43:44,880
followed with that car. 
And it's like all the time the 

1759
01:43:44,880 --> 01:43:48,120
police, I'm trying to remember 
them blanking on the guy's name.

1760
01:43:48,120 --> 01:43:54,240
The the officer who was staking 
out how to stake out of Bundy's 

1761
01:43:54,240 --> 01:43:59,240
house. 
He, he, he commented that once 

1762
01:43:59,480 --> 01:44:05,880
Bundy came out and stood out on 
the lawn out in the sun with 

1763
01:44:05,880 --> 01:44:08,880
like nothing but his shorts on, 
shorts and T-shirts or 

1764
01:44:08,880 --> 01:44:13,080
something, and just looking up 
and down the street like he was 

1765
01:44:13,080 --> 01:44:17,960
totally confident, like nothing 
was wrong and, and he's like 

1766
01:44:18,040 --> 01:44:20,440
back. 
And then we had to deal a deal 

1767
01:44:20,440 --> 01:44:24,160
with the local dealership that 
we would come get cars from them

1768
01:44:24,880 --> 01:44:28,440
that we would put, you know, 
government plates on and we 

1769
01:44:28,440 --> 01:44:31,880
would drive them and change them
as we drove up and down the 

1770
01:44:31,880 --> 01:44:35,360
street when we were doing a 
stakeout so that people wouldn't

1771
01:44:35,360 --> 01:44:37,080
realize we were surveilling 
them. 

1772
01:44:38,080 --> 01:44:39,400
And he's like, so we would do 
this. 

1773
01:44:39,400 --> 01:44:42,680
We would go and get one of these
cars and we would drive up and 

1774
01:44:42,680 --> 01:44:45,960
down the street, park for a 
while, sit and, you know, read 

1775
01:44:45,960 --> 01:44:49,000
the pretend to be reading the 
paper and then go down, get 

1776
01:44:49,000 --> 01:44:54,600
another car and do it again. 
And all of this just to just so 

1777
01:44:54,600 --> 01:44:56,400
that, you know, nobody would 
notice. 

1778
01:44:56,440 --> 01:44:59,400
And then when I was talking to 
this guy again, this researcher,

1779
01:44:59,400 --> 01:45:03,520
and he said, I was talking to 
these to these people who lived 

1780
01:45:03,520 --> 01:45:04,920
in the house. 
And they said, oh, yeah, I 

1781
01:45:04,920 --> 01:45:07,520
remember that. 
I remember how the police used 

1782
01:45:07,520 --> 01:45:11,320
to drive up and down the street 
in different cars like, well, 

1783
01:45:11,400 --> 01:45:14,160
and, and we would just stand 
there in the window going, what 

1784
01:45:14,160 --> 01:45:16,000
the hell do they? 
Who the hell do they think 

1785
01:45:16,160 --> 01:45:19,520
they're playing? 
They're like, oh, here they 

1786
01:45:19,520 --> 01:45:20,720
come. 
Hold on. 

1787
01:45:20,720 --> 01:45:22,960
Yeah, here they come, Janice. 
Here they're. 

1788
01:45:23,640 --> 01:45:27,200
They're definitely here today. 
That's hilarious. 

1789
01:45:27,200 --> 01:45:29,840
Oh my. 
God, they're so clever. 

1790
01:45:29,840 --> 01:45:32,920
So and then this I told you 
about that investigator Chariot,

1791
01:45:32,920 --> 01:45:34,440
can't remember his name, can't 
believe it. 

1792
01:45:34,680 --> 01:45:40,080
He did an interview in Captain 
Borax's where in in his car and 

1793
01:45:40,080 --> 01:45:43,320
he's like, so I went up to he's 
like, I went up to University of

1794
01:45:43,320 --> 01:45:44,920
Utah. 
I was stuck. 

1795
01:45:44,920 --> 01:45:51,160
I was staking out Ted Bundy and 
he's like, and he made me almost

1796
01:45:51,160 --> 01:45:52,960
right away. 
He's like, I'm pretty good at 

1797
01:45:52,960 --> 01:45:54,560
following people. 
I'm pretty good at it. 

1798
01:45:54,560 --> 01:45:59,920
But Ted, he's like paranoid and 
he like instantly makes me and 

1799
01:45:59,960 --> 01:46:03,920
I'm like, and so I like wandered
off like what a oh, look at 

1800
01:46:04,000 --> 01:46:05,600
what's that over there, you 
know? 

1801
01:46:05,680 --> 01:46:09,480
And he's like, like wandering 
around University of Utah's 

1802
01:46:09,480 --> 01:46:16,080
campus and he goes and he says 
and Bundy was like on his ass, 

1803
01:46:16,080 --> 01:46:19,480
like right behind him. 
And so he like picks up pace and

1804
01:46:19,480 --> 01:46:21,760
he picks up pace. 
And Bundy's picking up pace and 

1805
01:46:21,760 --> 01:46:24,240
coming up along behind him. 
Oh my gosh. 

1806
01:46:24,720 --> 01:46:27,040
So he goes up. 
Around, he just likes to mess 

1807
01:46:27,040 --> 01:46:29,960
with people, you know that. 
I just think he was like that. 

1808
01:46:30,560 --> 01:46:32,360
He was very arrogant, like you 
said. 

1809
01:46:32,360 --> 01:46:35,520
I mean he's like he's I'm being 
followed by police. 

1810
01:46:35,560 --> 01:46:39,680
I'm going to go confront them. 
And so he goes and he rounds 

1811
01:46:39,680 --> 01:46:42,160
about round the corner of this 
building. 

1812
01:46:42,240 --> 01:46:45,680
Now he doesn't, he's not armed 
at the time, strangely enough. 

1813
01:46:46,000 --> 01:46:48,240
He's just, you know, checking 
the guy out. 

1814
01:46:48,720 --> 01:46:51,960
And so he goes up and goes, he's
in plain clothes, obviously. 

1815
01:46:52,240 --> 01:46:55,080
And he goes around the corner of
this building. 

1816
01:46:55,080 --> 01:46:58,600
And he says, and as soon as Ted 
Bundy comes around this corner, 

1817
01:46:59,040 --> 01:47:02,480
I, I had pressed up against the 
wall and I snuck up right behind

1818
01:47:02,480 --> 01:47:05,480
him and I took my finger and I 
put it right in the small of his

1819
01:47:05,480 --> 01:47:08,080
back and said, don't move. 
And he's like, why are you 

1820
01:47:08,080 --> 01:47:10,320
following me? 
He's like, why are you following

1821
01:47:10,320 --> 01:47:13,160
me? 
And and he's like, you don't 

1822
01:47:13,160 --> 01:47:15,560
listen, you don't want any, you 
don't want to mess with me, Mr. 

1823
01:47:15,560 --> 01:47:17,760
I'm a dangerous person. 
And you know something like 

1824
01:47:17,760 --> 01:47:19,360
this. 
And he's like, I just want to 

1825
01:47:19,360 --> 01:47:21,160
know what the hell you want from
me, man. 

1826
01:47:21,440 --> 01:47:24,960
And he's like, you're following 
me and he's like, just back off.

1827
01:47:25,000 --> 01:47:27,480
And he's like, I'm going to, I'm
going to back off real quickly 

1828
01:47:27,480 --> 01:47:30,520
here, but you don't you go 
following me And he like takes 

1829
01:47:30,520 --> 01:47:33,160
off. 
Oh my gosh. 

1830
01:47:33,600 --> 01:47:35,280
He's like, this is all I was 
armed with. 

1831
01:47:36,840 --> 01:47:39,720
My finger watch out, I'm 
dangerous. 

1832
01:47:39,880 --> 01:47:44,560
He probably was dangerous 
without any any arming 'cause he

1833
01:47:44,560 --> 01:47:45,920
he liked a bludgeon. 
So. 

1834
01:47:45,920 --> 01:47:48,480
But there was another one 
another the guy who who's 

1835
01:47:48,480 --> 01:47:52,280
talking about how he used to, he
used to stake out Bundy with the

1836
01:47:52,280 --> 01:47:57,880
the cars. 
He said Bundy I whenever Bundy I

1837
01:47:57,880 --> 01:48:00,720
would follow him when he was in 
his Volkswagen, he'd make me 

1838
01:48:00,720 --> 01:48:04,440
right away and I it's like, why 
was this guy so smart? 

1839
01:48:04,440 --> 01:48:07,480
He's so clever. 
Isn't until later we find out 

1840
01:48:07,480 --> 01:48:10,160
no, they weren't very good at 
disguising themselves. 

1841
01:48:11,000 --> 01:48:17,840
He said that Bundy started like 
he pulled over his car and then 

1842
01:48:17,840 --> 01:48:22,160
as I was coming as I and so I 
slowed down to just kind of like

1843
01:48:22,160 --> 01:48:25,280
pretend to be like looking for a
parking space or something. 

1844
01:48:25,680 --> 01:48:29,560
He said Bundy got when reached 
into his car and grabbed a 

1845
01:48:29,560 --> 01:48:35,040
camera and pulled it out and 
went straight and went straight 

1846
01:48:35,040 --> 01:48:38,560
up to the car and start shooting
pictures of me in the driver's 

1847
01:48:38,560 --> 01:48:42,560
seat of this car. 
And he said and, and he said as 

1848
01:48:42,560 --> 01:48:46,080
soon as he had that camera 
pointed at me, I gave him the 

1849
01:48:46,120 --> 01:48:47,760
finger and tried to run him 
over. 

1850
01:48:48,200 --> 01:48:54,280
He like hit the accelerator, the
cop hit the accelerator and he 

1851
01:48:54,280 --> 01:48:58,360
and he jumps out of and jumps 
out of the way and he and he 

1852
01:48:58,360 --> 01:49:00,840
jumps out of the way of the car 
obviously so it doesn't kill him

1853
01:49:01,240 --> 01:49:04,400
and starts screaming fuck you, 
man, and starts, you know, 

1854
01:49:04,520 --> 01:49:06,960
giving him the finger and he's 
like giving him the finger. 

1855
01:49:06,960 --> 01:49:11,280
Oh my gosh, he has to be the 
most entertaining like for the 

1856
01:49:11,280 --> 01:49:14,480
dumb cops in Utah. 
Like back then, maybe not all 

1857
01:49:14,480 --> 01:49:17,160
cops now, but they sound, like 
you said, like a bunch of 

1858
01:49:17,160 --> 01:49:18,480
Barneys. 
Yeah. 

1859
01:49:18,480 --> 01:49:21,680
I mean, it had to be fun. 
Like, I'm sure they were like, 

1860
01:49:21,680 --> 01:49:23,600
yeah, let's go mess with Ted 
today. 

1861
01:49:24,640 --> 01:49:27,760
But and, and, and that was the 
interesting thing is that like, 

1862
01:49:28,040 --> 01:49:30,400
so they spent all that time 
looking for the car, right? 

1863
01:49:30,760 --> 01:49:34,920
The car is always described as a
light colored car until they 

1864
01:49:34,920 --> 01:49:37,240
actually get it. 
And then it's described as a 

1865
01:49:37,240 --> 01:49:41,000
white car. 
And it had different and it had 

1866
01:49:41,000 --> 01:49:45,040
a tear in the back seat. 
But then after they actually 

1867
01:49:45,040 --> 01:49:49,360
found the car after it had been 
purchased by the boy down in 

1868
01:49:49,520 --> 01:49:52,160
Midvale, it didn't have a tear 
in the back seat. 

1869
01:49:52,160 --> 01:49:54,000
And so they were wondering if 
they got the right car. 

1870
01:49:54,520 --> 01:49:56,800
And this is another thing 
Captain Borax brought to me. 

1871
01:49:56,800 --> 01:50:01,200
It's like something you don't 
read anywhere is Ted Bundy would

1872
01:50:01,200 --> 01:50:05,520
customize cars a lot. 
And there's no history about it.

1873
01:50:05,760 --> 01:50:09,280
He had some kind of habit. 
And so, but one of the police 

1874
01:50:09,280 --> 01:50:14,200
officers said there's a chop 
shop downtown in Salt Lake that 

1875
01:50:14,200 --> 01:50:18,720
we've always known was a little 
bit shady and Ted and he's like,

1876
01:50:18,720 --> 01:50:22,320
I followed Ted Bundy there one 
day with this car. 

1877
01:50:23,040 --> 01:50:27,040
And he's like he used to do. 
Apparently he used to repaint 

1878
01:50:27,040 --> 01:50:30,960
the car, switch out the seats in
the car, switched out the the 

1879
01:50:31,760 --> 01:50:35,680
switched out the hubcaps on the 
car or the rims or one or the 

1880
01:50:35,680 --> 01:50:37,320
other. 
So it looked like a different 

1881
01:50:37,320 --> 01:50:39,000
car. 
And he's just like, I was 

1882
01:50:39,360 --> 01:50:41,280
changing it. 
You know, it's just like his 

1883
01:50:41,280 --> 01:50:42,840
appearance. 
He was he. 

1884
01:50:42,840 --> 01:50:46,720
He wanted to be a chameleon. 
And then it goes back to the 

1885
01:50:46,720 --> 01:50:50,560
evidence again, like if he's 
smart like he was, he was very 

1886
01:50:50,560 --> 01:50:53,280
smart. 
They said his IQ was off the 

1887
01:50:53,440 --> 01:50:55,440
rails like when they measured 
him. 

1888
01:50:56,600 --> 01:51:00,000
And I believe it because like, 
you think about it, you're going

1889
01:51:00,000 --> 01:51:03,840
to get rid of the C if it got 
like maybe it got extra nasty 

1890
01:51:03,840 --> 01:51:07,520
one time or maybe he, the person
was a little more decomposed. 

1891
01:51:07,520 --> 01:51:11,480
Like, I'm thinking about it 
like, you know, logistically 

1892
01:51:12,120 --> 01:51:15,360
when you're moving bodies and it
depends on the time frame, it 

1893
01:51:15,360 --> 01:51:18,320
can get really bad. 
And so it makes sense he would 

1894
01:51:18,320 --> 01:51:21,560
need a new seat, you know, or no
seat, whatever. 

1895
01:51:22,160 --> 01:51:24,360
And, and it would, you know, 
yeah, it would make sense 

1896
01:51:24,360 --> 01:51:28,240
because, OK, so while they're 
waiting, while OK, in the period

1897
01:51:28,240 --> 01:51:33,000
time when Ted Bundy's in jail 
waiting to be able to post bond,

1898
01:51:33,480 --> 01:51:38,680
his at the day after they arrest
him because he gets caught of 

1899
01:51:38,680 --> 01:51:42,400
all things, in a traffic 
incident where he was chasing a 

1900
01:51:42,400 --> 01:51:45,520
couple of girls in a car through
a neighborhood. 

1901
01:51:45,760 --> 01:51:49,160
And she goes straight past a 
car, a parked car that looks 

1902
01:51:49,160 --> 01:51:50,880
just like any other car on the 
street. 

1903
01:51:51,400 --> 01:51:55,400
Turns out that car is the 
personal car of a Utah State 

1904
01:51:55,400 --> 01:52:00,120
trooper who's on shift right 
then filling out reports in his 

1905
01:52:00,120 --> 01:52:04,120
car in front of his house. 
And he's like, wow, going a 

1906
01:52:04,120 --> 01:52:06,920
little fast there, guys. 
He's basically writing up 

1907
01:52:06,920 --> 01:52:08,600
reports. 
He'd go, he would drive up and 

1908
01:52:08,600 --> 01:52:12,400
down the street pulling over 
drunk drivers. 

1909
01:52:12,960 --> 01:52:16,960
And so he he's filling out 
reports for for drunks that he's

1910
01:52:16,960 --> 01:52:20,920
pulled over that night. 
And he, and this car comes 

1911
01:52:20,920 --> 01:52:24,440
screaming by and right behind it
is this Volkswagen. 

1912
01:52:24,840 --> 01:52:28,920
And he is interviewed later by 
my friend Captain Borax. 

1913
01:52:29,400 --> 01:52:32,920
And he said, I saw it and I 
said, my neighbor had a car, a 

1914
01:52:32,920 --> 01:52:34,720
Volkswagen Beetle, just like 
that. 

1915
01:52:35,080 --> 01:52:38,600
And I said, oh, look at that. 
He got it up and running and 

1916
01:52:38,600 --> 01:52:40,800
he's like, 'cause it's been 
broken down for weeks. 

1917
01:52:41,040 --> 01:52:43,920
And I looked at him like, why is
he going so fast? 

1918
01:52:44,400 --> 01:52:47,680
And so I'm like, I, I, I don't 
care if he is my neighbor, I'm 

1919
01:52:47,680 --> 01:52:51,080
going to have to pull him over. 
And he starts driving while 

1920
01:52:51,080 --> 01:52:53,920
they're, while they're talking 
about this, this years later, 

1921
01:52:53,920 --> 01:52:56,560
this is like back in 2015, I 
want to say 2016. 

1922
01:52:57,160 --> 01:52:59,120
He's he's like, we'll go down 
there right now. 

1923
01:52:59,120 --> 01:53:01,760
And he's driving down the road. 
He's like the guy who lives 

1924
01:53:01,760 --> 01:53:03,640
right there. 
And he's like, and then so 

1925
01:53:03,640 --> 01:53:06,360
sister so and so lived over 
there and sister and brother so 

1926
01:53:06,360 --> 01:53:09,320
and so lived over there. 
And you know, his wife passed 

1927
01:53:09,320 --> 01:53:12,320
away a few years ago like this 
old Mormon. 

1928
01:53:13,600 --> 01:53:17,160
Oh my gosh, she's like, yeah, 
that's fine. 

1929
01:53:17,160 --> 01:53:20,480
And then what it like you said 
about this truck, like they just

1930
01:53:20,480 --> 01:53:24,080
left that they but they 
obviously, OK, so they're 

1931
01:53:24,440 --> 01:53:28,040
chasing him, they're watching 
him, they're doing all this 

1932
01:53:28,040 --> 01:53:30,120
stuff, but then they're just 
like evidence. 

1933
01:53:30,280 --> 01:53:33,480
Meh, we don't need that. 
Well, here's the wild thing. 

1934
01:53:34,480 --> 01:53:38,040
OK, so they didn't have anything
on him that he's been he's been 

1935
01:53:38,040 --> 01:53:40,320
suspicious for a while. 
They've they've been looking 

1936
01:53:40,320 --> 01:53:42,440
into him for a while at this 
point, but they can't find any 

1937
01:53:42,440 --> 01:53:45,200
evidence on him, right? 
And especially because Laura 

1938
01:53:45,200 --> 01:53:50,840
Amy's evidence is missing and he
start this guy, this, this state

1939
01:53:50,840 --> 01:53:55,160
patrolman, the highway 
patrolman, he starts following 

1940
01:53:55,160 --> 01:54:00,400
this car, thinking it's his 
neighbor until the car pulls up 

1941
01:54:00,400 --> 01:54:04,320
to a stop sign and it says 
stopping. 

1942
01:54:04,320 --> 01:54:07,440
It speeds up and takes off and 
flips around, you know, flips a 

1943
01:54:07,440 --> 01:54:12,600
corner. 
And he's like, no, so he pulls 

1944
01:54:12,600 --> 01:54:15,480
off behind him and turns off his
headlights. 

1945
01:54:15,480 --> 01:54:17,760
The cop does and starts 
following him with his 

1946
01:54:17,760 --> 01:54:21,240
headlights off. 
And he's like the and Bundy's 

1947
01:54:21,240 --> 01:54:24,200
trying to dodge weave in and 
out, in and out of this 

1948
01:54:24,200 --> 01:54:26,080
neighborhood. 
The guy's like, this guy doesn't

1949
01:54:26,080 --> 01:54:29,760
know this is my neighborhood. 
He's like keeping pace with him 

1950
01:54:29,760 --> 01:54:35,720
all the way. 
And then so they do this, they 

1951
01:54:35,720 --> 01:54:38,720
have this high speed car chase 
through a residential 

1952
01:54:38,720 --> 01:54:42,080
neighborhood. 
And finally Bundy pours out onto

1953
01:54:42,080 --> 01:54:47,320
a Main Street and immediately 
pulls into an abandoned gas 

1954
01:54:47,320 --> 01:54:51,800
station that's totally dark, 
Pulls out underneath the the 

1955
01:54:52,080 --> 01:54:55,160
pump, you know, whatever you 
call it, right? 

1956
01:54:55,720 --> 01:54:59,680
Pulls up along the where the 
pumps go and turns off the car 

1957
01:54:59,680 --> 01:55:03,120
and just rolls in with his 
lights off and everything just 

1958
01:55:03,120 --> 01:55:07,840
sitting there and the and this 
state and this highway patrolman

1959
01:55:08,360 --> 01:55:12,760
pulls up, pulls in behind him, 
pulls up just with his lights 

1960
01:55:12,760 --> 01:55:14,120
on. 
Like what are you doing? 

1961
01:55:15,680 --> 01:55:18,200
And then he calls on his radio's
like, guy, I'm going to need 

1962
01:55:18,200 --> 01:55:22,360
backup over here. 
He gets another patrol car comes

1963
01:55:22,360 --> 01:55:26,280
in from the other direction and 
shining their lights in there. 

1964
01:55:26,640 --> 01:55:32,400
And Bundy gets out of the car 
and out of the Volkswagen and 

1965
01:55:32,400 --> 01:55:37,400
starts walking over like 
nonchalant to the police officer

1966
01:55:37,400 --> 01:55:41,240
and the police officer. 
Hey, what you doing, Buck? 

1967
01:55:41,400 --> 01:55:43,240
Yeah. 
Anything I can help you with 

1968
01:55:43,240 --> 01:55:46,480
there, officer? 
The officer says he turns out he

1969
01:55:46,560 --> 01:55:50,440
he keeps the lights on his car, 
takes his pistol and sticks it 

1970
01:55:50,440 --> 01:55:52,360
out the window. 
And he says that's far enough. 

1971
01:55:52,520 --> 01:55:56,560
Stop right there. 
He's like, whoa, what's going 

1972
01:55:56,560 --> 01:55:59,000
on? 
He's like, you just need to stop

1973
01:55:59,000 --> 01:56:01,200
right there. 
Don't make another move. 

1974
01:56:01,680 --> 01:56:04,360
And then he gets out of the car 
and he's like, I just don't, I'm

1975
01:56:04,360 --> 01:56:06,480
a little worried. 
I don't know what's going on. 

1976
01:56:06,480 --> 01:56:09,360
Who are you people? 
Why are you, you know, what's 

1977
01:56:09,360 --> 01:56:13,240
with the patrol car over there? 
And he's like, you know exactly 

1978
01:56:13,240 --> 01:56:15,160
what's going on. 
Put your hands on the car. 

1979
01:56:15,160 --> 01:56:18,720
Don't move. 
And he's like, and and he's 

1980
01:56:18,720 --> 01:56:21,600
like, OK, so he identifies that 
he's Theodore Bundy. 

1981
01:56:22,000 --> 01:56:24,720
And then he, you know, goes 
through his registration and 

1982
01:56:24,720 --> 01:56:27,200
everything. 
And he started and he looks in 

1983
01:56:27,200 --> 01:56:30,480
the in the car and he sees that 
there's this tear across the 

1984
01:56:30,480 --> 01:56:33,160
back seat. 
And then slumped over the back 

1985
01:56:33,160 --> 01:56:38,040
seat is the passenger seat from 
the car, from the, from the, 

1986
01:56:38,280 --> 01:56:40,120
from the passenger side of the 
car. 

1987
01:56:40,640 --> 01:56:46,320
And he's and he's like, OK. 
And he sees that underneath that

1988
01:56:46,320 --> 01:56:50,680
passenger seat, slumped over the
back seat of the car is a 

1989
01:56:50,680 --> 01:56:55,000
leather bag, like a doctor's bag
that's a little bit open. 

1990
01:56:55,840 --> 01:56:59,120
And he says, can I have your 
permission to look through your 

1991
01:56:59,120 --> 01:57:01,400
car? 
Can I see your doctor's bag, 

1992
01:57:01,520 --> 01:57:03,800
Lawyer Bundy? 
Like what the hell are you doing

1993
01:57:03,800 --> 01:57:05,360
with that? 
Right. 

1994
01:57:05,800 --> 01:57:10,600
And he's like he's like why? 
And he's like, I don't need to 

1995
01:57:10,600 --> 01:57:13,320
answer you why. 
I'm just asking you can I have 

1996
01:57:13,320 --> 01:57:15,440
your permission? 
It's like I can go take you 

1997
01:57:15,440 --> 01:57:17,280
down. 
We can get AI can get a warrant 

1998
01:57:17,280 --> 01:57:19,400
if I need to, but can I have 
your permit? 

1999
01:57:19,400 --> 01:57:22,360
But instead, why don't know, you
just give me permission to look 

2000
01:57:22,360 --> 01:57:24,880
through your car. 
This is the point where Bundy 

2001
01:57:24,880 --> 01:57:27,120
should have said no, Go get the 
warrant, let's do it. 

2002
01:57:28,720 --> 01:57:32,280
No kidding, you're screwed. 
But he does, he wants to look 

2003
01:57:32,280 --> 01:57:34,640
innocent. 
So he's and he's arrogant, like 

2004
01:57:34,640 --> 01:57:37,840
you say he's like like. 
Whatever, whatever could you be 

2005
01:57:37,840 --> 01:57:40,720
thinking? 
I'm Ted Bundy. 

2006
01:57:40,960 --> 01:57:43,640
I'm a good guy. 
I'm a good cook. 

2007
01:57:43,680 --> 01:57:46,240
Ask anybody I know. 
I'm an amazing cook. 

2008
01:57:48,360 --> 01:57:51,680
I go, I I've been baptized, a 
member of the Church of Jesus 

2009
01:57:51,680 --> 01:57:54,160
Christ of Latter Day Saints. 
I can't be a man. 

2010
01:57:55,280 --> 01:57:57,640
He wouldn't say that. 
He'd be like, I am in the 6th 

2011
01:57:57,640 --> 01:58:02,880
Ward, I am in the 6th Ward. 
You know Bishop Jenkins, he 

2012
01:58:02,880 --> 01:58:05,840
knows me. 
You know who I am. 

2013
01:58:07,360 --> 01:58:10,520
Oh my gosh. 
And then if he was dating 

2014
01:58:10,520 --> 01:58:13,800
someone nice, he would be like 
and I date the Morgan's 

2015
01:58:13,800 --> 01:58:18,520
daughter. 
So he goes up. 

2016
01:58:18,880 --> 01:58:22,080
So he goes up to the guys. 
So he's like, yeah, you can let,

2017
01:58:22,080 --> 01:58:26,400
you can look at my car. 
He goes over and he and he has 

2018
01:58:26,400 --> 01:58:29,200
to work the car. 
The passenger door open because 

2019
01:58:29,200 --> 01:58:31,480
it doesn't open right away. 
And it's like, you having 

2020
01:58:31,480 --> 01:58:32,600
trouble there? 
And I got it. 

2021
01:58:32,600 --> 01:58:33,200
I got it. 
I got it. 

2022
01:58:33,400 --> 01:58:38,760
Like finally is able to work the
door open, pulls out this 

2023
01:58:38,760 --> 01:58:44,720
doctor's bag and inside he finds
a ski mask, a pair of pantyhose 

2024
01:58:44,720 --> 01:58:51,240
with eye holes cut out on them, 
A a pair of handcuffs that and 

2025
01:58:51,280 --> 01:58:55,160
keys that match the handcuffs 
that were on. 

2026
01:58:55,480 --> 01:59:01,760
Carol Duranch, remember that she
put handcuffs on her and and 

2027
01:59:02,320 --> 01:59:04,720
then she made it. 
When she took off, she still had

2028
01:59:04,720 --> 01:59:10,600
those those handcuffs on her. 
The other thing is that a key 

2029
01:59:10,600 --> 01:59:16,040
matching those handcuffs was 
found in the grass of the high 

2030
01:59:16,040 --> 01:59:18,240
school where Debbie Kent was 
kidnapped. 

2031
01:59:18,240 --> 01:59:22,760
And it was just like thrown in 
the grass and which is another 

2032
01:59:22,760 --> 01:59:24,200
strange thing. 
This is another one of these 

2033
01:59:24,200 --> 01:59:27,520
strange coincidences that people
said for years they just found a

2034
01:59:27,520 --> 01:59:29,480
key little itty bitty. 
And then. 

2035
01:59:29,560 --> 01:59:33,120
And no one cared too. 
Like, yeah. 

2036
01:59:33,800 --> 01:59:36,400
And so it's like, well, well, I 
mean, somebody cared enough to 

2037
01:59:36,400 --> 01:59:40,320
say this is the this was being 
carried by Debbie Kent's 

2038
01:59:40,520 --> 01:59:42,280
attacker. 
Well, you don't know that. 

2039
01:59:42,280 --> 01:59:45,480
I mean, we're just assuming. 
I mean, it could be anybody's 

2040
01:59:45,760 --> 01:59:48,200
handcuff key. 
Like nonsense. 

2041
01:59:48,200 --> 01:59:51,200
People have kinks. 
You know, but the loose, but the

2042
01:59:51,200 --> 01:59:54,160
loosey goosey way that all this 
evidence is being handled, 

2043
01:59:54,280 --> 01:59:57,600
there's been a long time 
suspected that maybe that was 

2044
01:59:57,600 --> 02:00:00,760
totally planted after the fact. 
And it's like, Oh yeah. 

2045
02:00:00,760 --> 02:00:04,520
Then we found this key. 
It was at Debbie Kent's play 

2046
02:00:04,520 --> 02:00:06,680
that the play where Debbie Kent 
was picked. 

2047
02:00:06,680 --> 02:00:09,760
Up in the grass, in the like a 
needle. 

2048
02:00:10,000 --> 02:00:12,120
Literally a needle in a 
haystack. 

2049
02:00:12,360 --> 02:00:18,480
But what about we can't? 
OK, we kept the key, but we lost

2050
02:00:18,480 --> 02:00:22,240
the plaster tire thingy. 
This giant. 

2051
02:00:23,720 --> 02:00:26,880
I mean, those are big. 
Those are like giant. 

2052
02:00:27,600 --> 02:00:29,640
But I remember, I remember the 
plaster. 

2053
02:00:29,640 --> 02:00:31,680
It does probably, you know, like
they. 

2054
02:00:32,800 --> 02:00:36,520
I I do remember the plaster cast
and it was the same tires that 

2055
02:00:36,520 --> 02:00:40,440
were on the Volkswagen like on 
the Volkswagen ear fucking 

2056
02:00:40,440 --> 02:00:42,200
later. 
OK, sure. 

2057
02:00:42,240 --> 02:00:44,480
Right. 
Yeah, and something about his 

2058
02:00:44,480 --> 02:00:46,680
shoe, wasn't it? 
Wasn't there something with his 

2059
02:00:46,680 --> 02:00:50,320
shoe and tread marks too? 
I can't remember. 

2060
02:00:50,320 --> 02:00:51,480
I don't. 
Remember anything about his 

2061
02:00:51,480 --> 02:00:54,120
shoe? 
I can't remember specifically on

2062
02:00:54,120 --> 02:00:57,840
that, but like, they had enough 
on him for a hot minute to be 

2063
02:00:57,840 --> 02:01:00,960
like, OK, cut it out. 
They probably go to save some 

2064
02:01:00,960 --> 02:01:04,720
people's lives, you know, and, 
and so he couldn't keep doing 

2065
02:01:04,720 --> 02:01:07,720
this on and on and on. 
And, and that doesn't make a lot

2066
02:01:07,720 --> 02:01:09,560
of sense to me. 
And I'm sure that's why they're 

2067
02:01:09,680 --> 02:01:12,400
CYA ING. 
We call it CYA ING. 

2068
02:01:12,400 --> 02:01:15,280
You know now because cover your 
ass, right? 

2069
02:01:16,000 --> 02:01:17,920
Because they've got to do 
something. 

2070
02:01:17,920 --> 02:01:20,960
They look like ridiculous. 
And so of course they're like, 

2071
02:01:20,960 --> 02:01:23,680
oh, handcuff key though. 
Handcuff key. 

2072
02:01:23,840 --> 02:01:25,160
We're smart. 
Look over here. 

2073
02:01:25,160 --> 02:01:27,200
Then the what? 
The guy who gets them? 

2074
02:01:27,200 --> 02:01:32,000
But the guy who gets the goods 
on Bundy is the guy who, sitting

2075
02:01:32,000 --> 02:01:35,160
there filling out his drunk 
driver reports when a car comes 

2076
02:01:35,160 --> 02:01:37,520
swing by and he's like, hey, 
not. 

2077
02:01:37,600 --> 02:01:41,440
What the Hell's going on there 
is children crossing. 

2078
02:01:41,560 --> 02:01:44,520
That's right, this is a 
neighborhood with families. 

2079
02:01:44,520 --> 02:01:47,160
It's 2:00 in the morning. 
Morning slowed down. 

2080
02:01:47,160 --> 02:01:51,560
What the hell are you doing? 
You obviously drunk. 

2081
02:01:51,960 --> 02:01:54,800
You kids playing your 
rock'n'roll music with your 

2082
02:01:54,800 --> 02:01:59,120
Beatles. 
And so he's he's going, he's 

2083
02:01:59,120 --> 02:02:02,640
going to track this guy down. 
Oh, funny exchange that happened

2084
02:02:02,640 --> 02:02:04,960
by the way. 
He's talking to Ted Bunny. 

2085
02:02:04,960 --> 02:02:06,200
He's like, where have you been 
tonight? 

2086
02:02:06,240 --> 02:02:09,240
And he's like, I've been at the 
movies and he's like, oh really?

2087
02:02:09,720 --> 02:02:12,560
Where what theater were you? 
What movie theater were you in? 

2088
02:02:12,640 --> 02:02:17,000
This is a point where any said 
20 is a one year, not quite a 

2089
02:02:17,000 --> 02:02:20,120
year lost first year law 
student, right. 

2090
02:02:20,640 --> 02:02:23,840
And he's, this is where you're 
supposed to say I'm not talking 

2091
02:02:23,840 --> 02:02:25,120
to you without an attorney 
present. 

2092
02:02:25,120 --> 02:02:28,480
No, I, I, but instead he's too 
arrogant. 

2093
02:02:28,480 --> 02:02:30,480
He's like, Oh, yeah, I went and 
he's like, I went and saw 

2094
02:02:30,480 --> 02:02:33,560
Towering Inferno. 
Towering Inferno. 

2095
02:02:33,560 --> 02:02:36,640
Oh, that's that new movie with, 
what's his name, McQueen. 

2096
02:02:36,640 --> 02:02:38,320
Steve McQueen. 
Yeah. 

2097
02:02:38,320 --> 02:02:39,480
You seen it? 
It's good. 

2098
02:02:39,480 --> 02:02:42,040
I haven't seen it yet. 
What movie theater did you go 

2099
02:02:42,040 --> 02:02:44,600
to? 
It's like, I was was the drive 

2100
02:02:44,600 --> 02:02:47,480
in? 
He's he said it's a little late 

2101
02:02:47,480 --> 02:02:50,120
to go to a movie, isn't it? 
And he's like, well, it was at 

2102
02:02:50,120 --> 02:02:53,640
the drive in. 
The drive in, really. 

2103
02:02:54,400 --> 02:02:58,720
And he's like, which drive in? 
There's two and he's and he's 

2104
02:02:58,720 --> 02:03:00,920
like, Oh yeah, they're on 
Redwood Rd. 

2105
02:03:01,720 --> 02:03:05,640
It's like, what if I were to 
tell you that that's my beat 

2106
02:03:05,640 --> 02:03:12,240
where I drive picking up drunk 
drivers And he's like, so he's 

2107
02:03:12,360 --> 02:03:15,720
like, what if I told you that I 
know for a fact that there are 

2108
02:03:15,720 --> 02:03:19,680
three cowboy movies playing at 
the at, at the both of those 

2109
02:03:19,720 --> 02:03:22,440
theaters? 
And no, and Towering Inferno 

2110
02:03:22,440 --> 02:03:25,120
isn't there. 
It's like, I don't know what I 

2111
02:03:25,120 --> 02:03:26,440
would. 
I don't know what to tell you 

2112
02:03:26,440 --> 02:03:30,480
because I saw Towering Inferno. 
He's like, interesting. 

2113
02:03:32,200 --> 02:03:35,640
And what was the other movie 
playing with it, by the way? 

2114
02:03:35,720 --> 02:03:38,040
Yeah, yeah. 
Why? 

2115
02:03:38,560 --> 02:03:41,440
So, OK, but but I tell you that 
to tell you this. 

2116
02:03:41,520 --> 02:03:47,720
OK, so the the day after, so 
that guy Hayward, I want to say 

2117
02:03:47,720 --> 02:03:51,080
his name, Bob Hayward, his 
brother. 

2118
02:03:51,680 --> 02:03:54,240
He's not the only cop in the 
family, as is common. 

2119
02:03:54,240 --> 02:03:58,120
That happens, right? 
His brother is the officer 

2120
02:03:58,120 --> 02:04:02,040
Hayward who's in charge of Ted 
Bundy over at Bundy's case down 

2121
02:04:02,040 --> 02:04:04,720
at Murray Police Department, at 
the the Ted killer. 

2122
02:04:05,200 --> 02:04:08,240
And he called and he picks him. 
He picks up the phone when he 

2123
02:04:08,240 --> 02:04:12,120
takes Bundy in for possession of
burglary tools. 

2124
02:04:12,680 --> 02:04:15,120
And he said and basically says, 
hey. 

2125
02:04:15,680 --> 02:04:17,680
And he's like, do you know what 
time time it is? 

2126
02:04:17,680 --> 02:04:20,920
He's like, hey, yeah, shut up. 
Hey, listen, you'll never 

2127
02:04:20,920 --> 02:04:23,480
believe who I just brought in 
for possession of burglary 

2128
02:04:23,480 --> 02:04:26,400
tools. 
And he's like, I, I, I don't 

2129
02:04:26,400 --> 02:04:27,320
know. 
And I don't care. 

2130
02:04:27,560 --> 02:04:31,120
He's like, do you know if a 
Theodore Culpup or Bundy? 

2131
02:04:32,640 --> 02:04:35,680
What? 
And he's like, yeah, didn't you 

2132
02:04:35,680 --> 02:04:37,920
tell me you were following a guy
like that? 

2133
02:04:38,280 --> 02:04:41,360
He's like, yeah, I just picked 
him up with a bag, with a ski 

2134
02:04:41,360 --> 02:04:44,000
mask, handcuffs. 
He's like, oh, we're going to 

2135
02:04:44,000 --> 02:04:46,880
be. 
Down there, like I don't touch 

2136
02:04:46,880 --> 02:04:49,520
anything, don't mess it up. 
Yeah, right. 

2137
02:04:50,680 --> 02:04:55,240
So he so he gets this, this 
other officer that they've had 

2138
02:04:55,240 --> 02:04:58,120
surveilling Bundy up up at the 
Pink Palace. 

2139
02:04:58,120 --> 02:05:04,800
Well, I call it the Pink Palace.
And he and he, he goes up to 

2140
02:05:04,800 --> 02:05:08,240
him. 
What's what's he saying? 

2141
02:05:09,000 --> 02:05:12,400
Oh, he called. 
He, he contacts the Murray 

2142
02:05:12,400 --> 02:05:17,680
Police Department and he says to
the other guy, he's like, hey, 

2143
02:05:18,120 --> 02:05:21,200
that girl you were that escaped 
the Ted killer. 

2144
02:05:21,200 --> 02:05:23,040
What's her name? 
Carol Duranch. 

2145
02:05:23,080 --> 02:05:25,800
Everybody loves this girl. 
It's the first thing everybody 

2146
02:05:25,800 --> 02:05:28,680
mentions about Carol Duranch is,
oh, she's tall and she's 

2147
02:05:28,760 --> 02:05:32,560
gorgeous. 
And he's like and he's like. 

2148
02:05:32,560 --> 02:05:34,840
She had like a cool car too, 
right? 

2149
02:05:34,840 --> 02:05:36,440
Then she had like a cool car. 
She. 

2150
02:05:36,440 --> 02:05:41,080
Had a. 
She had a underbird I want to 

2151
02:05:41,080 --> 02:05:44,680
say. 
And her last name is kind of 

2152
02:05:44,680 --> 02:05:47,520
hilarious. 
I'm just saying like garage 

2153
02:05:47,640 --> 02:05:54,360
like. 
She had a Camaro, a maroon 

2154
02:05:54,360 --> 02:05:58,960
Camaro, and so, and she was very
proud of it, obviously. 

2155
02:05:59,560 --> 02:06:03,120
But so he calls, he's like, can 
I get that girl's number? 

2156
02:06:03,120 --> 02:06:05,080
And can I get your permission to
contact her? 

2157
02:06:05,080 --> 02:06:09,080
And he's like, why? 
And he's like, I think she'll be

2158
02:06:09,080 --> 02:06:12,880
able to pick out Bundy's car. 
And I know for a fact that it's 

2159
02:06:13,000 --> 02:06:17,240
that it's parked up in front of 
his house right now because I've

2160
02:06:17,240 --> 02:06:20,560
been surveilling it. 
And before he can get out on 

2161
02:06:20,560 --> 02:06:24,200
bond and move it, I want to, I 
want her to look at it. 

2162
02:06:24,200 --> 02:06:25,640
So he comes, He's like, yeah, 
sure. 

2163
02:06:25,640 --> 02:06:29,240
Here's the girl's number. 
Girl gets the first thing in the

2164
02:06:29,240 --> 02:06:31,400
morning. 
Just got a police a call from 

2165
02:06:31,400 --> 02:06:33,280
police officer. 
She's already had bad 

2166
02:06:33,280 --> 02:06:35,640
experiences with police officers
taking her for rides. 

2167
02:06:35,640 --> 02:06:40,200
But she he says, hey, any chance
I could take you to lunch? 

2168
02:06:41,040 --> 02:06:48,000
She's like, I guess why? 
Maybe, yeah. 

2169
02:06:48,680 --> 02:06:52,720
He's like, oh, I have questions 
for you about the about the man 

2170
02:06:52,720 --> 02:06:55,480
who tried to kidnap you. 
Oh, lead with that guy. 

2171
02:06:55,480 --> 02:06:56,720
OK. 
Yeah, sure. 

2172
02:06:56,720 --> 02:06:57,960
Pick me up. 
We'll go to lunch. 

2173
02:06:58,280 --> 02:07:02,000
Can I take you to lunch first? 
Like no, you're creepy and all 

2174
02:07:02,000 --> 02:07:04,480
weird. 
Everything that gets mentioned 

2175
02:07:04,480 --> 02:07:06,960
around Carol Durantz in this 
whole story is creepy of these 

2176
02:07:06,960 --> 02:07:09,720
men who are all about oh, and 
she was so good looking. 

2177
02:07:09,720 --> 02:07:13,200
And I'm like, hey, do you want 
to like, can you know? 

2178
02:07:13,320 --> 02:07:16,680
Like yeah, she was almost 
killed. 

2179
02:07:16,680 --> 02:07:19,480
Can you just help the girl? 
Like almost raped and murdered. 

2180
02:07:19,480 --> 02:07:22,120
Come on guys, shill. 
Come on, no. 

2181
02:07:22,520 --> 02:07:26,000
Especially if you're going to. 
We're like, well, you made it 

2182
02:07:26,000 --> 02:07:28,080
so. 
Especially when the next. 

2183
02:07:28,120 --> 02:07:31,400
To go to eat. 
The next line is OK, don't 

2184
02:07:31,400 --> 02:07:33,880
bother getting in your car. 
I'll come by your house and pick

2185
02:07:33,880 --> 02:07:36,960
you up in my car. 
Oh yeah. 

2186
02:07:38,040 --> 02:07:43,200
So it's like, OK, so he comes by
her house, picks her up and 

2187
02:07:43,200 --> 02:07:46,200
takes her to lunch. 
He takes her up to the avenues, 

2188
02:07:46,800 --> 02:07:51,120
and instead of going straight to
lunch, he pulls up and stops 

2189
02:07:51,120 --> 02:07:56,680
behind a Volkswagen Beetle in 
front of this pink palace with 

2190
02:07:56,680 --> 02:07:59,720
Carol Durant, the girl who got 
away, sitting in the passenger 

2191
02:07:59,720 --> 02:08:05,120
seat of his patrol car. 
And she's like, OK, weird, 

2192
02:08:06,600 --> 02:08:07,840
weird. 
And he's like, what's? 

2193
02:08:08,000 --> 02:08:09,680
Happening. 
What's weird? 

2194
02:08:10,800 --> 02:08:13,600
It's like, what are we doing 
here that you wanted to go to 

2195
02:08:13,600 --> 02:08:17,000
lunch? 
And he's like, I just thought 

2196
02:08:17,000 --> 02:08:21,800
maybe you might recognize that. 
Look over there. 

2197
02:08:21,960 --> 02:08:23,080
Title that. 
Title that. 

2198
02:08:24,000 --> 02:08:26,560
And she's like looks, and she 
looks through the window. 

2199
02:08:26,560 --> 02:08:28,560
She's looking through the 
windshield at the back of this 

2200
02:08:28,560 --> 02:08:29,480
world, playing. 
Beetle. 

2201
02:08:29,480 --> 02:08:32,360
So funny. 
And she looks in, she's like 

2202
02:08:32,720 --> 02:08:36,280
that tear on the back seat. 
And he's like, what about it? 

2203
02:08:36,280 --> 02:08:40,320
And she's like, that's the car 
and he's like, you sure, 'cause 

2204
02:08:40,360 --> 02:08:43,840
it's a different color. 
And she's like, no, I recognize 

2205
02:08:43,840 --> 02:08:47,320
that that tear in that back 
seat, that's the car. 

2206
02:08:47,760 --> 02:08:50,080
And he's like, anybody could 
point at something they're 

2207
02:08:50,080 --> 02:08:52,280
looking at and say, that's the 
thing. 

2208
02:08:52,600 --> 02:08:56,000
He's like, describe something 
else in the interior of the car.

2209
02:08:56,360 --> 02:08:58,520
And she starts telling him about
the gear shift. 

2210
02:08:58,520 --> 02:09:01,440
She says telling him about the 
car, the seat that doesn't fit 

2211
02:09:01,440 --> 02:09:03,480
quite right. 
She tells him about, you know, 

2212
02:09:03,480 --> 02:09:07,280
she tells him about the, about 
the, the interior of the car And

2213
02:09:07,280 --> 02:09:11,280
he goes up and he takes note and
takes notes of what she's able 

2214
02:09:11,280 --> 02:09:14,200
to identify without being able 
to see inside the car. 

2215
02:09:14,880 --> 02:09:18,040
And then he's. 
Like and it was right on. 

2216
02:09:18,640 --> 02:09:23,040
It was dead on, she knew. 
Everything about well, he hated 

2217
02:09:23,080 --> 02:09:24,760
her. 
She's great. 

2218
02:09:24,760 --> 02:09:27,200
I freaking love her. 
If you watch her in court, you 

2219
02:09:27,200 --> 02:09:31,440
guys, you're going to, it's like
the best thing ever because 

2220
02:09:31,440 --> 02:09:34,480
she's like, she is. 
No, she's not afraid. 

2221
02:09:34,480 --> 02:09:37,880
She's not a little wuss. 
She's like, come at me bro. 

2222
02:09:38,080 --> 02:09:44,360
Like she don't care. 
And then in the midst of all 

2223
02:09:44,360 --> 02:09:47,080
this, no, no members of the 
church are suspicious of 

2224
02:09:47,080 --> 02:09:50,920
anything except for State 
President Michael Priest. 

2225
02:09:51,760 --> 02:09:56,720
And he, they eventually they 
convict Ted Bundy of the 

2226
02:09:56,720 --> 02:09:59,880
attempted kidnapping of Carol 
Duranch. 

2227
02:10:00,600 --> 02:10:06,480
And in in while he's in jail, 
while he's in prison and, you 

2228
02:10:06,480 --> 02:10:10,360
know, planning to appeal, of 
course, as you do, he, Michael 

2229
02:10:10,360 --> 02:10:16,960
Priest shows up with his wife 
and as as a visitor and asks to 

2230
02:10:16,960 --> 02:10:18,560
see him. 
He's like, hello, Ted, you 

2231
02:10:18,560 --> 02:10:20,640
Remember Me? 
I'm President, Priest. 

2232
02:10:21,640 --> 02:10:24,640
It's like, listen, Ted, this is 
our sensitive issue to to bring 

2233
02:10:24,640 --> 02:10:29,960
up with you. 
But in your absence, we convened

2234
02:10:29,960 --> 02:10:33,080
a court of love on your behalf, 
and you've been excommunicated 

2235
02:10:33,080 --> 02:10:36,280
from the Church. 
A court of love. 

2236
02:10:37,160 --> 02:10:39,160
Yeah, I mean, I think they have 
problems. 

2237
02:10:40,120 --> 02:10:42,840
I think that was back when they 
called the disciplinary council 

2238
02:10:42,840 --> 02:10:44,720
and the days when I got my 
letter. 

2239
02:10:44,720 --> 02:10:49,480
We call it a court of love. 
But yeah, you told he's like, 

2240
02:10:49,600 --> 02:10:52,600
yeah, you've been excommunicated
from the church, I hate to tell 

2241
02:10:52,600 --> 02:10:54,600
you. 
And he's like, Bundy was just 

2242
02:10:54,600 --> 02:10:57,240
like, you know what, That's 
fine. 

2243
02:10:57,280 --> 02:11:01,800
Look, I understand you guys are 
freaking out, but I'm innocent. 

2244
02:11:01,800 --> 02:11:04,720
Obviously I'm innocent. 
I'm appealing this right now. 

2245
02:11:04,960 --> 02:11:06,960
I don't know if you know this, 
but I'm a law student. 

2246
02:11:07,600 --> 02:11:12,640
He loves to flaunt that, too. 
He's like the guy Bob Hayward 

2247
02:11:13,320 --> 02:11:16,320
takes. 
Bob Hayward takes his pen and 

2248
02:11:16,320 --> 02:11:20,760
takes the that those handcuffs, 
the same type that Carol Duranch

2249
02:11:20,760 --> 02:11:24,120
was had on her wrist and holds 
them up to him. 

2250
02:11:25,560 --> 02:11:29,640
So, and he's like, I'm a law 
student. 

2251
02:11:31,800 --> 02:11:34,120
OK. 
All right, he's like. 

2252
02:11:35,200 --> 02:11:37,400
Did they teach you about 
handcuffs or what? 

2253
02:11:37,720 --> 02:11:38,520
Like what? 
Every. 

2254
02:11:38,840 --> 02:11:42,360
Every law student needs to know 
how to use handcuffs. 

2255
02:11:42,520 --> 02:11:45,040
Obviously we represent 
criminals. 

2256
02:11:46,880 --> 02:11:51,680
Just in case, right? 
Just in case you have to ever, I

2257
02:11:51,680 --> 02:11:54,720
don't know, chain somebody up 
because that's not your job. 

2258
02:11:54,720 --> 02:11:57,840
And what, that's nothing to do 
with anything. 

2259
02:11:57,840 --> 02:12:02,240
That's a bailiff's job. 
So weird out another thing. 

2260
02:12:02,360 --> 02:12:05,400
So another interesting story. 
And this is now tangential. 

2261
02:12:05,760 --> 02:12:12,200
The same week, the same month 
that Laurie Amy's been missing, 

2262
02:12:12,920 --> 02:12:16,360
a girl from who's a student at 
University of Utah, she's a 

2263
02:12:16,360 --> 02:12:20,320
pharmacy student, is standing in
front of a bus stop waiting for 

2264
02:12:20,320 --> 02:12:24,080
a bus. 
We now know this more than 40 

2265
02:12:24,160 --> 02:12:27,440
years later. 
That woman's name is Rhonda 

2266
02:12:27,440 --> 02:12:31,840
Stapley. 
Now she says this cute boy in 

2267
02:12:31,840 --> 02:12:36,360
this in this Volkswagen pulls up
while she's standing at this bus

2268
02:12:36,360 --> 02:12:41,960
stop and he and he pulls up and 
he's, you know, talking sweet to

2269
02:12:41,960 --> 02:12:44,200
her and says, you know, why 
don't you get in the car? 

2270
02:12:44,200 --> 02:12:46,640
Let me it's cold out there. 
Let me give you a ride. 

2271
02:12:46,640 --> 02:12:49,480
And she's like, oh, no, I I just
live here. 

2272
02:12:49,480 --> 02:12:53,000
I go to school here at the at 
universe at the university. 

2273
02:12:53,000 --> 02:12:54,320
It's like, what do you think I'm
doing here? 

2274
02:12:54,320 --> 02:12:56,200
I'm a student. 
I'm in the law school. 

2275
02:12:56,600 --> 02:13:01,400
And she's like, oh, the lawyer, 
like, I'm a pharmacy tech. 

2276
02:13:01,400 --> 02:13:07,400
And he's like, and she's like, I
guess, you know, he's one of my 

2277
02:13:07,400 --> 02:13:09,920
fellow alumni. 
OK, fine. 

2278
02:13:09,920 --> 02:13:10,720
He looks. 
Safe. 

2279
02:13:10,920 --> 02:13:12,680
He looks safe. 
Right. 

2280
02:13:12,800 --> 02:13:14,840
He looks like a good clean cut 
member of the church. 

2281
02:13:14,920 --> 02:13:17,000
Good priesthood holder magnifies
his con. 

2282
02:13:17,760 --> 02:13:21,640
And so she gets into the 
Volkswagen and he's like, yeah, 

2283
02:13:21,640 --> 02:13:23,480
let me take you to let me take 
you home. 

2284
02:13:23,480 --> 02:13:25,360
Which direction is it? 
It's off this direction. 

2285
02:13:25,360 --> 02:13:27,040
Well, let's go for a little ride
first. 

2286
02:13:27,480 --> 02:13:30,840
And he starts flirting with her 
and she says that while she he 

2287
02:13:30,840 --> 02:13:33,960
was, she wasn't used to boys 
giving her much attention. 

2288
02:13:33,960 --> 02:13:35,640
So she was a little bit 
flustered. 

2289
02:13:36,120 --> 02:13:39,280
And then he steers her up into a
Canyon. 

2290
02:13:40,560 --> 02:13:45,240
I, she doesn't say this much, 
but I, I'm deducing it must have

2291
02:13:45,240 --> 02:13:50,280
been City Creek Canyon. 
But so he steers her up into a 

2292
02:13:50,280 --> 02:13:57,080
Canyon and she says she, she 
realizes this boy wants to make 

2293
02:13:57,080 --> 02:13:59,960
out with me. 
And so she starts to think. 

2294
02:13:59,960 --> 02:14:02,000
She says she started to think 
about how she was going to 

2295
02:14:02,000 --> 02:14:05,480
explain to him that she's a 
virgin, she's a good Mormon 

2296
02:14:05,480 --> 02:14:07,600
girl, and she plans to keep it 
that way. 

2297
02:14:07,600 --> 02:14:10,160
So, you know, strictly above the
bell business. 

2298
02:14:10,720 --> 02:14:15,160
And the. 
And so they pull over into a 

2299
02:14:15,160 --> 02:14:18,280
clearing of trees. 
And she said it was then that he

2300
02:14:18,280 --> 02:14:21,080
leaned over to her. 
He turned the car off and this 

2301
02:14:21,080 --> 02:14:24,160
clearing of trees in the Canyon 
and that. 

2302
02:14:24,160 --> 02:14:28,320
He turned and twisted in his 
seat and suddenly his demeanor 

2303
02:14:28,320 --> 02:14:32,880
turned very dark and almost. 
Like our guy? 

2304
02:14:33,640 --> 02:14:38,120
Almost like he was disgusted. 
And he leaned, she said she, he 

2305
02:14:38,120 --> 02:14:40,240
leaned into her like he was 
going to kiss her. 

2306
02:14:40,880 --> 02:14:46,680
And instead he said, guess what,
I'm going to kill you now. 

2307
02:14:47,400 --> 02:14:52,080
And he took his bare hands and 
strangled her until she lost 

2308
02:14:52,080 --> 02:14:57,960
consciousness. 
And then but then as as the 

2309
02:14:59,120 --> 02:15:05,360
events where on she came to and 
realized that he had revived her

2310
02:15:06,240 --> 02:15:11,560
while she while he was in the 
process of taking advantage of 

2311
02:15:11,560 --> 02:15:15,120
her in the car. 
And she says he did this 

2312
02:15:15,120 --> 02:15:19,840
multiple times over and over and
over again just to tease her 

2313
02:15:19,840 --> 02:15:24,320
and, and, and just to make it 
clear to her that he was having 

2314
02:15:24,560 --> 02:15:26,240
his way with her before he 
killed her. 

2315
02:15:27,040 --> 02:15:33,000
And she says that she finally 
came to real and realized that 

2316
02:15:33,160 --> 02:15:38,000
in the process that he was 
distracted, some movement or 

2317
02:15:38,000 --> 02:15:41,520
something going outside the car.
She's been choked out several 

2318
02:15:41,520 --> 02:15:45,000
Times Now and she's completely 
disoriented. 

2319
02:15:45,320 --> 02:15:50,320
She can, she, she doesn't even 
realize that her pants, her, her

2320
02:15:50,320 --> 02:15:52,240
jeans are pulled down around her
ankles. 

2321
02:15:52,240 --> 02:15:54,600
She doesn't even know she's not 
in possession of her whole 

2322
02:15:54,600 --> 02:15:59,200
faculties yet. 
And she said that she she just 

2323
02:15:59,200 --> 02:16:02,720
knew that he was getting out of 
the car, distracted with 

2324
02:16:02,720 --> 02:16:07,880
something outside the car. 
And she rolled out through the 

2325
02:16:07,880 --> 02:16:12,720
open door, which happened to be 
open and made a run for it. 

2326
02:16:12,840 --> 02:16:16,480
And it was as she was making a 
run for it that she tripped and 

2327
02:16:16,480 --> 02:16:18,960
fell flat on her face. 
And that's how she figured out 

2328
02:16:19,040 --> 02:16:21,440
that her that her pants were 
down around her ankles. 

2329
02:16:22,480 --> 02:16:25,920
And she doesn't even look back 
to see if he's following her. 

2330
02:16:26,120 --> 02:16:30,800
She just tries to pull her pants
up as best she can and book it 

2331
02:16:30,800 --> 02:16:32,879
into the and book it into the 
woods. 

2332
02:16:33,920 --> 02:16:37,080
She said that she remembered 
getting to the river. 

2333
02:16:37,160 --> 02:16:40,160
There's this fast flowing river 
for this is the reason why I say

2334
02:16:40,160 --> 02:16:42,719
it must have been City Creek 
canyons because of course City 

2335
02:16:42,719 --> 02:16:46,240
Creek is just a trickle down in 
the city, but it starts way up 

2336
02:16:46,240 --> 02:16:49,760
there, the head watch. 
And so there's she's getting. 

2337
02:16:49,840 --> 02:16:55,719
She says she threw herself into 
the Rapids to get away from him 

2338
02:16:55,719 --> 02:16:57,840
and just to start rolling down 
along. 

2339
02:16:57,840 --> 02:17:00,400
And then she was just like, in 
and out of consciousness from 

2340
02:17:00,400 --> 02:17:04,400
that point on. 
And she finally makes her way 

2341
02:17:04,400 --> 02:17:08,360
home. 
You know, she climbs out of the 

2342
02:17:08,360 --> 02:17:11,280
water. 
She makes her way home, going 

2343
02:17:11,280 --> 02:17:14,200
every which way except on the 
road for fear that he's going to

2344
02:17:14,200 --> 02:17:16,280
be up and going up and down the 
road looking for her. 

2345
02:17:17,440 --> 02:17:21,840
She's able to walk home in the 
night sopping wet. 

2346
02:17:22,559 --> 02:17:25,200
Half strangled and almost 
drowned. 

2347
02:17:25,480 --> 02:17:30,120
And and raped. 
And she says that she got that. 

2348
02:17:30,120 --> 02:17:33,719
She finally gets home and she 
doesn't tell a soul. 

2349
02:17:33,719 --> 02:17:35,600
And people have challenged her 
on this. 

2350
02:17:35,600 --> 02:17:38,639
People, OK, come on, don't 
capitalize on Zen. 

2351
02:17:38,639 --> 02:17:42,120
She's like, look, I, I, I don't 
ask anybody to believe me, but 

2352
02:17:42,120 --> 02:17:44,120
it's the truth. 
It, this happened to me. 

2353
02:17:44,520 --> 02:17:49,200
And she said when people ask 
her, why didn't, why did she 

2354
02:17:49,200 --> 02:17:53,600
keep it a secret for 40 years? 
Why didn't you come forward when

2355
02:17:53,600 --> 02:17:56,639
these other girls were, you 
know, murdered? 

2356
02:17:56,639 --> 02:17:58,440
You could have helped. 
You could have done this, she 

2357
02:17:58,440 --> 02:18:02,639
said in the Church of Jesus 
Christ of Latter Day Saints, it 

2358
02:18:02,639 --> 02:18:08,559
when you have sex, you are a bad
person and it doesn't matter 

2359
02:18:08,559 --> 02:18:12,760
that you were raped. 
And she said this was at the 

2360
02:18:12,760 --> 02:18:16,920
time the teachings of the 
prophets were that it was better

2361
02:18:16,920 --> 02:18:22,160
to lose your life trying to ward
off your attacker than to 

2362
02:18:22,160 --> 02:18:27,360
survive, because that meant that
she if you survived. 

2363
02:18:27,400 --> 02:18:30,400
You had to live with it. 
That you. 

2364
02:18:30,400 --> 02:18:35,200
Had as a tainted well and they 
used to tell us like the sexual 

2365
02:18:35,200 --> 02:18:40,200
sin is the only sin next to 
murder and like even 

2366
02:18:40,200 --> 02:18:43,639
masturbation, all this stuff. 
And so I get it because you 

2367
02:18:43,639 --> 02:18:45,440
know, they used to tell us, oh 
you're you. 

2368
02:18:45,520 --> 02:18:48,520
It's far better for you. 
Even like with me when I got 

2369
02:18:48,520 --> 02:18:52,080
married, I was so young, but I 
lost my virginity to him. 

2370
02:18:52,080 --> 02:18:56,559
They were like, far better for 
you to get married at 17 than to

2371
02:18:56,719 --> 02:18:59,520
not get married. 
And, you know, I think the 

2372
02:18:59,520 --> 02:19:03,680
church has really seen the 
divorce rate skyrocket because 

2373
02:19:03,680 --> 02:19:06,879
of these teachings. 
And a lot of people used to kill

2374
02:19:06,879 --> 02:19:10,200
themselves all kinds of bad 
stuff, you know, because of this

2375
02:19:10,200 --> 02:19:12,240
stuff. 
It it's just not healthy 

2376
02:19:12,240 --> 02:19:15,600
teaching. 
How many broken marriages and 

2377
02:19:16,639 --> 02:19:21,200
you know, children from broken 
homes come from people, gay 

2378
02:19:21,200 --> 02:19:25,160
people being told to marry as if
they are straight and it'll work

2379
02:19:25,160 --> 02:19:26,040
out. 
All of it. 

2380
02:19:26,719 --> 02:19:28,520
Yeah. 
Well, same even with straight, 

2381
02:19:28,520 --> 02:19:32,080
straight, gay, whichever, like 
they are, they push that and you

2382
02:19:32,080 --> 02:19:35,799
feel like you kind of. 
I mean, my husband was 26. 

2383
02:19:35,920 --> 02:19:39,160
I was 17. 
I had no business getting 

2384
02:19:39,160 --> 02:19:43,320
married to that man. 
Like, really, I I was a kid. 

2385
02:19:43,400 --> 02:19:44,959
Yeah. 
I was still in high school. 

2386
02:19:45,080 --> 02:19:49,440
I was supposed to be my senior 
prom, you know, and I wasn't. 

2387
02:19:49,440 --> 02:19:51,280
I was off getting married 
because how dare I? 

2388
02:19:51,280 --> 02:19:54,360
I wasn't pregnant. 
I just dared to do the deed, you

2389
02:19:54,360 --> 02:19:56,200
know? 
And I get where she's coming 

2390
02:19:56,200 --> 02:19:58,080
from. 
Like people might say, oh, 

2391
02:19:58,080 --> 02:20:00,840
that's a crazy story, maybe 
where you live. 

2392
02:20:01,000 --> 02:20:04,480
But where we live, yeah, not so 
much. 

2393
02:20:04,720 --> 02:20:07,320
I could. 
In the in this episode, in in 

2394
02:20:07,320 --> 02:20:10,400
the first episode of Blood of 
Blood tone and I talk about 

2395
02:20:10,400 --> 02:20:12,400
this, I said, look, this, this 
seems strange to you. 

2396
02:20:12,400 --> 02:20:16,080
Let me read something to you. 
And I opened up The Miracle of 

2397
02:20:16,080 --> 02:20:20,240
Forgiveness by Spencer W 
Kimball, who was prophet of the 

2398
02:20:20,240 --> 02:20:24,320
church when this happened. 
And he had published that book 

2399
02:20:24,320 --> 02:20:27,440
when he was still an apostle. 
And right there that that 

2400
02:20:27,440 --> 02:20:30,800
passage is is right there just 
like that. 

2401
02:20:30,800 --> 02:20:35,440
It is better to lose your life. 
I I wish I had it right in front

2402
02:20:35,440 --> 02:20:38,240
of me, but in the. 
Than to live with it. 

2403
02:20:38,920 --> 02:20:44,000
It's better to live, he says it.
It's better to lose your life to

2404
02:20:44,000 --> 02:20:49,320
save your virtue than to lose 
1's virtue without a fight, is 

2405
02:20:49,320 --> 02:20:52,640
the way he describes it. 
And so she realizes that that's 

2406
02:20:52,640 --> 02:20:55,960
how she's going to be thought of
if she ever tells people that 

2407
02:20:55,960 --> 02:21:01,200
she was nearly raped and killed 
by this man who said I'm going 

2408
02:21:01,200 --> 02:21:04,360
to kill you now. 
And she was terrified for 40 

2409
02:21:04,360 --> 02:21:09,680
years until she finally came out
and was able to say that I, I 

2410
02:21:09,680 --> 02:21:12,280
know that this man did the 
things to these women because he

2411
02:21:12,280 --> 02:21:14,520
did it to me. 
Wow. 

2412
02:21:15,480 --> 02:21:19,080
Well, and it's sad that, you 
know, we still live in this time

2413
02:21:19,080 --> 02:21:23,640
frame that the church hasn't 
changed a whole awful lot on on 

2414
02:21:23,640 --> 02:21:26,440
their teachings. 
So I don't do that. 

2415
02:21:26,880 --> 02:21:31,280
Just because I'm a Christian 
doesn't mean I, I think other 

2416
02:21:31,280 --> 02:21:33,680
Christians are great. 
If you need that accompaniment 

2417
02:21:33,680 --> 02:21:36,680
and you need that for your 
happiness, that's fine. 

2418
02:21:36,680 --> 02:21:40,240
I'm not. 
I'm not saying don't, but look 

2419
02:21:40,280 --> 02:21:45,440
at the way the crumbling of Rome
is happening right now, OK? 

2420
02:21:46,360 --> 02:21:50,200
Like maybe just pray and do 
yourself a favor. 

2421
02:21:50,400 --> 02:21:53,320
And even if you go to church, 
don't idolize men. 

2422
02:21:53,680 --> 02:21:56,760
Men are men. 
And I mean, it could be women, 

2423
02:21:57,200 --> 02:22:01,240
people will say people, and I 
said men, 'cause we both know 

2424
02:22:01,240 --> 02:22:05,560
the church is very patriarchal. 
So which has held. 

2425
02:22:05,680 --> 02:22:09,080
But even then all these changes 
are coming, coming, coming, 

2426
02:22:09,080 --> 02:22:11,640
coming, coming. 
And we just sit here and we're 

2427
02:22:11,640 --> 02:22:16,080
watching it circling the drain. 
You know it, It's, it's not 

2428
02:22:16,080 --> 02:22:19,920
good. 
And I just say, just remember 

2429
02:22:20,440 --> 02:22:24,520
you, you have another way you 
can, you can do it on your own. 

2430
02:22:24,640 --> 02:22:26,720
God gave us the book. 
The book is good. 

2431
02:22:27,200 --> 02:22:30,360
Read it. 
If you don't want to read it and

2432
02:22:30,360 --> 02:22:34,800
you want to go the other way, 
you can do that too and say it 

2433
02:22:34,800 --> 02:22:37,280
none of it matters. 
But I don't know that believing 

2434
02:22:37,280 --> 02:22:39,000
in a sinking ship is a good 
idea. 

2435
02:22:42,120 --> 02:22:45,520
Well, you know, especially when 
they, I don't know if you saw 

2436
02:22:45,520 --> 02:22:50,240
there's a report that now that 
says that the single largest 

2437
02:22:50,240 --> 02:22:53,760
group religious affiliation 
group in the United States now 

2438
02:22:53,760 --> 02:22:57,640
is officially none. 
And it's a, there's the, the 

2439
02:22:57,640 --> 02:23:00,800
deconstruction is real. 
Now, how much of that is 

2440
02:23:01,200 --> 02:23:05,480
atheists like myself? 
I, I, I didn't maintain a lot, 

2441
02:23:06,040 --> 02:23:09,560
but how much of that is just 
people just sick and tired of 

2442
02:23:09,560 --> 02:23:12,720
being in any way affiliated with
anything that happens inside the

2443
02:23:12,720 --> 02:23:16,760
four walls of a church or 
anything with a, you know, and. 

2444
02:23:17,280 --> 02:23:21,280
I've been called a Pagan over it
because I just believe in I, I 

2445
02:23:21,280 --> 02:23:24,880
said I like to go outside in the
mountains and read my Bible and 

2446
02:23:24,880 --> 02:23:27,800
somebody called me a Pagan and I
think they were kidding, but I 

2447
02:23:27,800 --> 02:23:30,040
just was like, hey, I'll take 
it. 

2448
02:23:30,040 --> 02:23:34,400
Like I'll take that and reading 
my Bible by myself over whatever

2449
02:23:34,400 --> 02:23:37,200
is going on right now. 
It doesn't look good like. 

2450
02:23:38,400 --> 02:23:40,840
Tell me this person was a Mormon
because the iron. 

2451
02:23:40,840 --> 02:23:45,040
I'm sure they were. 
I'm certain it was some quote 

2452
02:23:45,040 --> 02:23:48,000
they left for me. 
And I thought, Oh my gosh, I 

2453
02:23:48,000 --> 02:23:52,680
said I was reading the Bible, 
you know, like the the Bible and

2454
02:23:52,680 --> 02:23:54,760
they were like, oh, that's 
pagans. 

2455
02:23:54,920 --> 02:23:59,200
Pagans do that outside. 
Call me a Pagan while you're 

2456
02:23:59,200 --> 02:24:02,400
standing there with with all the
people, all the ex Mormons 

2457
02:24:02,400 --> 02:24:05,320
around you going how many wives 
does God have? 

2458
02:24:05,360 --> 02:24:07,560
You don't talk about that 
sacred. 

2459
02:24:07,560 --> 02:24:11,080
Well, put on your, put on your 
apron and start doing this 

2460
02:24:11,080 --> 02:24:13,320
number. 
And tell me what I am do the 

2461
02:24:13,320 --> 02:24:14,920
paleo. 
Paleo. 

2462
02:24:15,680 --> 02:24:18,240
Pagan. 
Tell me, Tell me that's not 

2463
02:24:18,240 --> 02:24:22,640
Pagan, right? 
OK, then, you Masonic friend. 

2464
02:24:24,960 --> 02:24:28,000
All right, we're dorks. 
I think this was good. 

2465
02:24:28,120 --> 02:24:29,920
I think this was a good one. 
And I. 

2466
02:24:30,000 --> 02:24:33,120
I hope. 
I feel like it was like super 

2467
02:24:33,120 --> 02:24:36,440
informative and a lot of stuff 
you said I didn't know about the

2468
02:24:36,440 --> 02:24:39,760
cars and the Barney Fife. 
I didn't know this, so that was 

2469
02:24:39,760 --> 02:24:43,200
great there's. 
The Barney Fife like. 

2470
02:24:43,800 --> 02:24:48,080
We need, we need to think of a 
Mormon Barney Fife name like 

2471
02:24:48,760 --> 02:24:58,600
Hubert, Hubert's Pile or I. 
Oh my gosh. 

2472
02:24:58,760 --> 02:25:01,240
And so should we tease them for 
the next time? 

2473
02:25:01,240 --> 02:25:02,640
Do we know what we're doing 
next? 

2474
02:25:03,400 --> 02:25:06,560
OK, I can talk about a few 
things. 

2475
02:25:06,560 --> 02:25:10,000
Let's see. 
OK, So what? 

2476
02:25:10,160 --> 02:25:12,920
Color shall we? 
I could, we could. 

2477
02:25:13,920 --> 02:25:16,600
So there was a guy. 
I have a podcast that's 

2478
02:25:16,600 --> 02:25:19,840
basically edited. 
It'll be going up soon and we 

2479
02:25:19,840 --> 02:25:21,560
can talk about it a little bit 
more in depth. 

2480
02:25:21,920 --> 02:25:28,120
So can I say about the Charlie 
Chaplin's chauffeur and his 

2481
02:25:28,120 --> 02:25:33,960
assistant? 
No, yeah, it's got murder and 

2482
02:25:33,960 --> 02:25:36,080
mayhem. 
It does have murder. 

2483
02:25:36,120 --> 02:25:39,760
And mayhem. 
The next question is, does it 

2484
02:25:39,760 --> 02:25:42,240
have Mormons? 
It does. 

2485
02:25:43,760 --> 02:25:46,840
It's our bill. 
Murder, Mormons and mayhem is 

2486
02:25:46,840 --> 02:25:48,840
what? 
We're about here and Charlotte 

2487
02:25:49,600 --> 02:25:51,680
Naplin of all people. 
I did not. 

2488
02:25:51,680 --> 02:25:53,880
I did not know this. 
I'm going to have to do some 

2489
02:25:53,920 --> 02:25:56,320
studying. 
Very interesting story. 

2490
02:25:57,400 --> 02:26:00,600
All right, well, we will leave 
it on that teaser, let them know

2491
02:26:00,600 --> 02:26:04,040
where they can find you and all 
of your work so that if and I'll

2492
02:26:04,040 --> 02:26:06,000
do vice versa. 
Great. 

2493
02:26:06,120 --> 02:26:10,720
You can always find me at 
hellfire.agencytheresno.com. 

2494
02:26:10,720 --> 02:26:14,040
the.agencyisthe.com because it's
not 1994. 

2495
02:26:14,240 --> 02:26:16,560
It's not Al Gore's Internet. 
The Internet belongs to 

2496
02:26:16,560 --> 02:26:18,640
everyone. 
Hellfire dot agency. 

2497
02:26:20,000 --> 02:26:23,200
Awesome, and I am Heidi Love. 
I'm at the Unfiltered Rise 

2498
02:26:23,200 --> 02:26:27,440
wherever podcasts are served and
Unfiltered Rise for Patreon if 

2499
02:26:27,440 --> 02:26:29,360
you want to see these awesome 
shows. 

2500
02:26:29,440 --> 02:26:33,600
So better find us there and find
us quick because I think we do a

2501
02:26:33,600 --> 02:26:36,680
pretty good job. 
So have a blessed day. 

2502
02:26:36,680 --> 02:26:41,960
And for everyone out there, just
remember it's all falling apart.

2503
02:26:41,960 --> 02:26:43,360
You might want to do your due 
diligence. 

2504
02:26:46,880 --> 02:26:47,960
Or else. 
Mud. 

2505
02:26:48,040 --> 02:26:51,200
Love. 
Yes. 

2506
02:26:51,200 --> 02:26:52,920
Bye, bye. 
Thanks, Eddie.