Well, this is a one of the the blessings of working at Utah
State University is being able to associate with with Patrick
Mason who has been at the university.
How long Patrick? About two years.
Two years came in from California.
You were at Claremont Graduate College, Graduate University,
and then he was offered the Arrington chair at USU.
And so here he is. And so we we get to have him
here. It's a very timely message.
In recent years, virtually no member of the church has been
unaffected by faith crises, whether they're on or among
someone they love. So how can we faithfully,
honestly and lovingly meet the questions and doubts that often
arise both for ourselves and for others?
So that's what Patrick Mason will speak to today.
Patrick Mason is the author of the book Planted Belief and
Belonging in an Age of Doubt, published by Deseret Book.
He's professor of religious studies and history at Utah
State University. And Patrick and his wife,
Melissa live in Logan with their four children.
So we'll turn the time now over to Brother Mason after I clean
up the microphone for it. Thank you.
Tom. Didn't know when you'd recalled
in the stake presidency that you'd also be on janitorial duty
up here too. But it's great to to see those
of you who are here, but especially all those who are
with us remotely. And these these are interesting
times we're in. I, we're all hoping and praying
that things are getting better, of course, and hopefully in a
few months we'll be able to do this kind of thing with a packed
house all in person. But for those of you who are at
home in your pyjamas, you know, eat some Cheetos for me.
Well, well, we're here in the, the building.
So I'm, I'm thrilled to be here tonight.
And it's like, like President Williams said, I, I moved to
Logan with my family a couple years ago.
We've had just a fantastic experience here, been a great
place for us to, to be with our family, to raise our kids, to be
part of the community. So, and, and as time goes on,
we, we look forward to associating.
We'll probably bump into a lot of you in the grocery stores and
at other places around town. So I look forward to getting to
know you here as fellow Loganites.
But the, the topic that I wanted to talk about tonight is not
necessarily an, an easy one for us.
So, so tonight we're going to talk about a topic that can be
difficult to talk about and specifically the issue of, of
doubt, of faith crisis, as it's commonly called.
And as President Williams noted, I, I doubt that there's anyone
in the church, or very many at least that have not been
personally affected either in their own lives or somebody they
know and love. A family member, a close friend,
a ward member, somebody who in recent years has had serious
questions about their testimony, serious doubts about the church
and really struggling with whether or not they would they
want to, to stay with the church or, or maybe step away from it.
So this has affected all of us in a way.
And so it's important for us to talk about, even though it's
hard to talk about. And so that's what we're going
to do tonight. And I want to start with this
scripture from the New Testament from the Savior in Luke chapter
18. It's a passage that might be
easy to miss, but I think it it really speaks to the issue
today. And he asks, when the Son of Man
cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
So when the Savior returns, which we believe and know he
will, will he find faith? Now, it used to be that I think
we could take this as a foregone conclusion.
Of course he'll find people who are faithful.
I mean, there's always been people who have believed.
There's always been good, strong, faithful disciples of
Jesus on the earth. Even during the time when when
our church wasn't on the earth, there were always people who who
believed in Jesus and worshipped him.
So it seemed like kind of a foregone conclusion.
But if you look at some of the recent statistics and some of
the recent numbers that have come out, it doesn't seem like
such a foregone conclusion. So I'm going to start with some
of these numbers, which I'm just going to warn you that the bad
news is coming up front here. All right.
So it's so it's, it's going to look be a little rocky here for
a few minutes, but then things things will get better.
So, so trust me. So there was this study that
came out a couple of years ago by a group called the the Pew
Forum. And the the Pew Forum is, is one
of the most respected and largest institutions that
studies religion in the United States and around the world.
Widely respected, quoted and cited by scholars, also by by
church leaders. Actually, Elder Anderson in a
general conference talk recently referred to to some of these
numbers. And so these are well respected
numbers. They published a report a couple
of years ago in October of 2019, which as you can see here,
talked about the decline of Christianity in the United
States. And so I want to give you some
of these numbers. And again, it's, it's a bit of a
bleak picture now. I know it's going to be hard for
you to see, especially maybe here in the room.
So, so let me talk through some of these charts.
You'll, you'll get a sense of it just from looking at the
direction of some of these lines.
But so in 2007, if you look at the chart on the left, in 2007,
2008, when Pew called people up or surveyed people, however they
did on the phone or on the Internet or whatever and asked
people, what religion are you? And this is people in the United
States, about 7778% of people responded that they were
Christian. 10 years later, in 2018-2019, when Pew asked the
exact same question, only 65% of people in America said they were
Christian. So in the space of a decade,
there was about a 12 or 13 percentage point drop in the
number of people saying that they were Christian.
When asked during that same decade, from about 2007, 2008
until 2018, the percentage of people who, when they were asked
what religion are you said none of the above.
Or I don't go to church, or I don't have a church, I don't
have a religion. We call them the unaffiliated.
There were about 16 or 17% who identified that way in 2007,
2008, a decade later, it was up to 26%.
On the right hand side, you, you can see charts this.
They ask people, how often do you go to church?
And in 2007, about 5455% of Americans said they went to
church at least monthly. Ten years later, those numbers
had flaw had flipped exactly to where the number of people who
said they attended church at least monthly was only about
45%. And the number of people who
said they attended church less regularly than that which which
could be not at all, was about 54%.
So those numbers flipped exactly.
Well, you could say, well, those are just percentages.
What about actual numbers that could be explained by
immigration or any number of things?
Well, here's the actual numbers of people.
So during that same decade from about 2009 to about 2019, the
total the actual number of Christians in the United States
declined from about 178 million to 167,000,000.
So a drop of 11,000,000 actual people in the space of a decade
who who self reported being Christian.
Now, the amazing number is the the line at the bottom, and that
traces the number of people who again say that they're not
affiliated with any religion. This isn't people who are in
other religions like the they're, they're Jewish or
they're Muslim or Hindu or something like that.
These are people who claim no religious identity at all.
In the United States, that jumped from 39 million people in
2009 to 68,000,000 Americans a decade later, 30 million more
Americans in the space of only a decade said that they no longer
affiliated with any religion at all.
That's unbelievable. I mean, we never see those kinds
of changes that kind of jump in such an important thing like
religious identity in the space of only a decade.
OK. And you and, and I know this
will be impossible for you to see here in the room, but but
you might say, oh, that's just certain kinds of people.
But actually the studies show that this is true of every
demographic group. So men and women, every
generational cohort, every racial group, people who are
have a college education, people who don't have a college
education, people in every region of the country,
Democrats, Republicans, liberals, conservatives, in
every single demographic group in the United States, we're
seeing a significant decline in the number of Christians and a
significant increase in the number of people who do not
affiliate with any religion. OK, so all of that just goes to
say that that this is, this is kind of the overall trend
sometimes when it happens in your family, right, or in your
ward, you, you might think like we're the only ones.
You might, you might think we're, we're, we're alone in
this. But in fact, this is not just an
issue for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
This is not just about our church.
This is about all churches in America right now.
This is the water we're swimming in right, right now.
And if you're a religious person, if you care about
religion, times are tough and we're increasingly swimming
against the stream. Now, this chart shows retention
rates among Latter Day Saints for different generational
cohorts. And when I when we're talking
about retention here, we're not talking about convert retention,
the number of adults who get baptized who then stay with the
church like a year later or five years.
This is about people who are raised in the church who then
stay with the church into adulthood.
OK, So for people who were in the, the, the silent generation
or, or, or the boomer, the baby boomers, the church retained
about 72 to 75% of those folks. That is phenomenal.
I mean that this is one of the reasons why the church grew so
quickly in the, in the last part of the 20th century is because
it kept all the kids who were born into the church.
And there were a lot of kids born into the church during that
time period. And this is just phenomenal
compared to, to other churches to, to retain 3/4 of the people
who were born into your church. You can see it dropped off a
little bit in my generation, I'm a Gen.
Xer to about 62%. But then among millennials fell
off the Cliff. And according to this study,
different studies show different things.
But, but, but these, these numbers show that that the
church retains only about 46% of millennials.
Again, these are people who were born in the church, raised in
the church, who then choose not to stick with the church into
adulthood. So less than half, according to
this particular study. So we're seeing big changes.
I'm going to skip over this because this is going to be
impossible for you to see. But basically, not only are we
seeing fewer people staying with the church, but actually lower
levels of confidence in some of the church's basic teachings in
terms of of how, how strongly do you feel about such and such a
doctrine that are that across the generations, it's getting
less and less. So what do we do with this?
OK, how do we, how do we deal with this?
So, so at once it's, it's a broader general pattern.
And I'm sure you've all seen this, right?
I mean, you've seen this in the broader culture.
You've maybe seen this among neighbors and other kinds of
things, a general pattern in American Society of fewer people
going to church, fewer people identifying as Christians of of
all sorts, and more and more people being willing to to
publicly say they don't affiliate with religion at all,
especially among younger people, especially among millennials and
Gen. Z, OK.
And at the same time, though, lots of people are staying with
religion, right? And a lot of people feel as
strongly about it as ever. And so how do we, how do we
navigate this? How do we deal with this new
reality? And that's what it is.
It's a new reality. It's not something we can just
wish away. It's not something we can
pretend it isn't happening because again, it's happening
within our families. It's within our marriages, among
with our friends, among our ward members, right?
The people that we love. So this isn't just a theoretical
problem. This isn't just a theoretical
issue. This is the people that we love.
And what happens when somebody that you love decides to leave
the church? What do you do?
And so this is exactly what led me to to think about this, to
write about this a little bit. And so that's what I want to
talk about tonight is to think about first of all, what is
going on. And, and so we'll, we'll shift
now from the kind of general American situation and, and now
talk specifically about our church, the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter Day Saints. So what is going on?
How do we understand it? Why do people leave the church
or struggle with doubts and so forth?
And how can we minister effectively and honestly and
lovingly with compassion, with honesty, when, when people have
questions and when people have doubts?
OK, again, it's not just something we can wish away.
So now one thing that I've found is I've talked to lots and lots
of people is that every story is different.
Of course, every person is different.
No, no people, no two people, No2 situations are the same.
But with that said, I've talked to enough people at this point
that that I begin to see some some general patterns of some
reasons why people struggle and with with with doubts about the
church and sometimes to such a point that they choose to walk
away. So I put these in three
different buckets or categories. And again, this is overly
generalizing because every person is different, but it
sometimes it helps just to think in terms of general patterns.
So I want to talk tonight about people who feel switched off,
people who feel squeezed out, and people who feel tuned out.
So switched off, squeezed out and tuned out.
OK, So what do I mean by these? All right, so first of all,
switched off. What I mean here is generally
people who struggle with their testimonies, struggle with the
church because of doctrinal or historical or intellectual
issues. They find some aspect of the
church, church's history that troubles them, some aspect of
the church's doctrine taught either present or past that that
really troubles them. So it's, it's kind of a, it's,
it's, it's a struggle with them in, in terms of how they think
about the church. And let me give you again, every
story is different, but let me give you an example of what this
might look like for a lot of folks.
It begins actually quite innocently.
I mean, they are, they're firmly grounded in the church.
They're active serving in colleagues and so forth.
And they, I've talked to lots of people who is it?
It begins just with searching on the Internet sometimes to
prepare a lesson, you know, a young women's lesson or
something like that. And they want to find out
additional information about the topic.
And so they go start going to do some research and they stumble
across something on the Internet that troubles them, which is a
little maybe different from what they've heard at church,
something they've never heard about maybe at all.
And at first the impulse might be to simply dismiss it as anti
Mormon garbage, right? Because there's plenty of anti
Mormon garbage on the Internet, right?
But but this particular thing, they, as they start to look into
it a little bit more, they realize, wait a minute, there's
something to this. It isn't just garbage.
It's not just made-up. There's actually something here,
and we know what these issues are.
There's there's a long list, but there's about a dozen or so
issues that come up pretty consistently for people.
And we know what those issues are because actually the church
knows what those issues are because of its own research and
from listening to people. And so a few years ago, the
church published a series of essays on the church's website,
lds.org, now churchofjesuschrist.org, called
the Gospel Topics Essays. And probably a lot of you are
familiar with these essays. Probably a lot of you have have
seen these. OK.
But the church knew exactly what these issues that consistently
came up among people, what they were.
And so they they wrote a series of essays.
Now, these essays were written by historians, people who are
professional historians who had spent years studying that topic.
Most of them were not employees of the church, so members of the
church, but not employees of the church.
So, so the church commissioned these outside historians to work
on these issues to write, to come up with the best research.
What are the facts about this particular issue.
And then they worked alongside the Church history department.
And then each of these essays, when they were written, then it
was sent through the correlation process and went all the way up
to the First Presidency in quorum of the 12 for approval.
So every one of these essays, when you go look at them on
churchofjesuschrist.org, every single one of these has been
written by professional historians who were experts on
the topic and approved by the 1st presidency in Coram of the
12 apostles. Now, what are these issues?
Again, there's about, I think there's 12 or 13 of these
essays. They range on a whole range of
topics from race and the priesthood to Joseph Smith
translating the Book of Mormon using cedar stones to Joseph
Smith's translation of the Book of Abraham, the Mountain Meadows
Massacre, questions about polygamy, some more questions
about polygamy and some more questions about polygamy.
A lot of questions about polygamy.
And, but, and, and then several that I'm I'm forgetting off the
top of my head. And, and so, but these were the
issues that consistently came up for people that they had
questions. And so the church addressed
these in, in the best way they could.
I mean, now the essays aren't perfect.
They're, they're short. There's a lot more to to be said
about all of these issues, but these are honest, forthright
attempts to talk about these issues in a way that, that, that
that actually is not destructive of faith in which the, in which
the church puts these things into context.
But still, if we go back to that person who found that fact on
the Internet, OK, found that thing on the end and again,
discovered that, wait a minute, this isn't just a lie.
There's something to this walk with me and think with me
through the thought process or, or often times the emotional
process of finding that. And, and so a lot of people say,
OK, I, I, I found that. And as I dug into it, I realized
that there was something to it. And I began to wonder how come
nobody ever told me about this? I've spent my life in the
church. I've spent years in the church.
I went on a mission, I've served in Collins.
I went to seminary, I went to institute.
I've been to going to Gospel doctrine for years and years and
years, right? How come nobody ever told me
about this? And then some people say, well,
what else aren't they telling me?
And there can be. And, and so you can, you can,
you can see here what, what, what the, the, what, what the
kind of thought process is. And what it becomes is a loss of
trust, even a sense of betrayal, that I've spent years and years
going to church or going to church classes and nobody ever
told me. About this particular thing, why
not? What are they hiding, right?
And so this loss of trust, faith is nothing if not trust, right?
It's just like any relationship. It's really easy to break trust,
but it's really hard to build it.
And once somebody feels like their trust has been broken,
it's re or, or is, is kind of borderline, it's hard to rebuild
that. So a lot of people feel like
their trust has been lost. And So what do we do when that
happens, OK, for those? And so this is what I mean by
people who feel switched off. These are people who at one
point felt switched on, right? And then something happens, they
learn about something or a constellation of things and that
leads them to feel switched off. They don't feel the same way
they used to. They're, they're not sure if
they can listen to and trust the leaders of the church, the
materials that the church puts out, etcetera.
So what do we do when somebody feels switched off?
Well, a couple of things that that I tell to people who are
struggling with this, who are encountering this.
So first of all, we don't argue with the facts, right?
The facts are what the facts are.
And this is exactly what the church tried to address in these
gospel topics essays, right? So we don't, don't argue with
the facts. We don't try to argue them away.
But those facts, whatever they are, those facts do not compel
disbelief. And here's what I mean by that.
There's a whole lot of people who know all of those facts, all
of those things that you just read on Google, right?
Or all of those things that you just read on some blog or
listened to on a podcast or, or discovered in a book somewhere.
All of those things, There are lots and lots of people who have
also read those same things and they haven't lost their
testimony and they've worked through it and they've found a
way actually for their testimony to come out stronger on the
other side. And I can say that with
confidence because I'm one of those people, right?
I mean, I've, I've spent years studying these kinds of things.
My first book was on anti Mormonism.
I've read, I think, pretty much what there is to read out there.
And not only have I come through with my faith intact, but
actually my faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ and in the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and its leaders has
never been stronger. There is a way to deal with
these things constructively and productively and to put them
within a context and a framework of faith.
It does not have to lead to the destruction of 1's testimony.
Now, again, I understand how tough it is to wrestle with some
of these things. Some of these things are hard to
wrestle with. But there is light at the end of
the tunnel. There is a way through and it's
important that we recognize that there is hope.
And one of the things that we can do is we can disaggregate.
We can, we can separate the things that we know, the
experiences that we've had, the witness of the spirit that we've
had from these kinds of questions that we have.
It's not that those questions don't matter, right?
But if there's a way that we can also hold on to the things that
we've felt and the experiences that we've had within the
church. And so that we can discern not
only truth from error, but also the things that are most
important to us and the things that are going to lead us in a
life of Christ. Now, there's lots more to say,
say there, but I want to move on.
And I want to talk about what about those who are still
switched on, right? What if you're the person who's
still in the church and your testimony is still intact and
you're still going strong, but that somebody you love is really
struggling, What do you do? And I think this is the
$1,000,000 question for for those of us who are still in the
church, what do we do to minister and to love those who
are struggling with faith crisis?
Well, it seems to me the first thing we do is we go back to our
baptismal covenant and remember that baptismal covenant is
sketched out in a few different places in the scripture, my
favorite places in Mosiah chapter 18.
You remember this when when they're baptizing people in the
waters of Mormon and it talks about the covenant that they
made as they went into those waters.
And it said that they were what they covenanted, that they were
willing to bear one another's burdens, that they might be
light and to mourn with those who mourn, to comfort those who
stand in need of comfort. That was the first thing that
they covenanted to do. Now I can tell you, and I'm
you've probably had these conversations too, For for
people who are going through faith crisis, it is often times
the hardest thing they've gone through in their entire life.
It often came uninvited. It often came, you know, in, in,
in ways that people didn't expect it.
It is it is affecting their relationships.
It's affecting their marriages, the relationship with their
parents, with other ward member, with other people.
There's, there's a kind of bewilderment that that that can
happen with this. And for a lot of people, it is
the hardest thing, the most painful thing they've ever gone
through. And so we've covenanted to mourn
with those who mourn and comfort those who stand in need of
comfort. We don't get to choose, oh, I'm
going to mourn with certain kinds of people and certain kind
of mourning, or I'm going to comfort people or who are in
need of certain kind of, you know, when somebody breaks their
leg, I'm going to take him a casserole.
But faith crisis? No, sorry, not doing that,
right? We don't get it.
We don't get to make that choice.
Our covenant was to mourn with people whatever is causing them
mourning, to comfort them whatever they need comfort with,
to bear whatever their burdens look like.
Now the covenant goes on. There will be a time to stand as
a witness at all times and all places and all things.
There'll be a time. But, but for whatever reason,
this covenant was written in such a way that the first thing
we do is to mourn with those who mourn and comfort those who
stand in need of comfort. We don't relinquish our
testimony. We don't have to give an inch on
our testimony. We can remain firm in the things
that that that we believe and with that we know even when the
people around us are struggling. But we are called to love.
And why? Because that is exactly what
Jesus does with us. In whatever our burdens are,
whatever our form of mourning, whatever we need comfort.
Jesus stands first in love, not in judgment.
Remember, we love God because he loved us first.
So for all of us, whether people are here feeling switched off or
whether for those who are those of us who are still in the
church and feeling switched on, for all of us, the Christian
virtues still apply. That we show love to one
another, That we try to exercise hope for better relationships
and a better future. That we're generous towards one
another, that we forgive when needed.
All right, all of those things that we are humble, recognizing
that we don't know everything. We certainly don't know what's
in other people's hearts and heads.
We don't know everything in history.
We don't know everything about anything.
All right, So humility. So all these things that were
taught in the Church, all these Christian virtues apply both as
we minister to those who are in faith crisis and as people go
through faith crisis themselves. OK, so that's a little bit about
switched off. Let let me move, let me move on
and talk about these other two categories and then I'll close
and we'll, we'll have a few minutes for questions.
OK, so if that was switched off, So what about squeezed out?
So here, what I mean by this is people who are struggling with
the church because of social or cultural issues and they're not
sure if there's a place for them in this church.
They, they, they wonder if they feel constrained or they feel
squeezed out and they're, and they're not sure that this is a
place where they can worship Christ.
OK, Now this, this can be all kinds of things, but the, the
things that most directly confront the issue today or the
confront the church today are issues around women's equality
and women's leadership in the church and then LGBTQ issues.
OK. And in in a lot of ways,
actually in recent years, these issues in some ways have
eclipsed some of the issues that the kind of switched off type
issues. But but all of them are, are
still in play. Well, you know, these are tough
issues. These are tough issues because
as a community we're still learning and we're still
growing. Now think it.
Think just how much we've learned and grown as a
community, as a church in the past few years around women's
leadership and about women's roles.
Think about what we've learned in recent years about the
relationship of women in the priesthood and the way that
women exercise priesthood in the temple, in the home, in the
church. Think about everything the
President Oakes and others of the Brethren and sisters have
taught us about this. We have learned so much.
We are growing in our understanding of what priesthood
is and what priesthood means and how it is exercised by men and
by women. That's a great thing.
So we still, we're, we're still growing.
We're still learning. Think how much we've grown in
terms of incorporating women in leadership positions and
actually respecting and listening to their voices in
ward councils, in stake councils, in all kinds of
settings. Right?
Have we figured it all out yet? Heavens no, right?
We're still wrestling with this. There's still a lot of women who
feel like their voices are unheard and their experiences
are not validated. We have a long way to go.
OK? But we are learning so much as a
church. And I think we're better now
than we were 10 years ago or 20 years ago or 50 years ago.
And so we're still learning and, and I think the Lord is teaching
us and hopefully we're listening what it means and what the
proper relationship between men and women are within the church
and how priesthood is, is for all of God's children in the
various ways that it's exercised.
OK, so we're learning there LGBTQ issues.
I mean, these things, these these issues have have raised up
just in my lifetime for sure, really in in my adult lifetime
over the past 2025, thirty years, right.
And we, I, I think we can all admit we are all learning and
growing and stretching here in an area that just wasn't on our
radar in any significant way a generation or two ago.
And there are a lot of people who are struggling.
There is a lot of pain in the church right now.
There is a lot of people with a lot of questions right now about
whether this church can be a place for them to find Christ
and to worship Christ. Now, I don't have all the
answers. I sustain the brethren, the
prophets and apostles whose prerogative it is to receive
revelation and declare doctrine for the Church.
But what can we do at a local level, even while we're still
growing and learning and figuring things out?
Well, the one thing we're all called to do is to be
Christians, to love my wife and I, We've, we've lived in, in
lots of different places. We've lived around the world.
We've lived in, in branches and wards, not only throughout the
United States, but also in places like Egypt and Romania.
And, and one of the things that we've loved about the wards and
branches that we've been in, especially outside the Western
United States where, where the church is sparser and especially
in places like Romania and Egypt where it's really sparse.
But when you walk into one of those wards and branches, and
maybe some of you have been in, in those kinds of branches and,
and wards as well. When you walk in, the feeling
is, or when anybody walks in those doors, the feeling is,
thank you for being here. We're glad you're here.
We don't care what you're wearing.
We don't care what you look like.
You know, we, we don't care. I mean, just thank you for being
here. We're glad that you've come and
want to worship with us. And we're going to figure this
out. And we're one big happy family
or one small happy family in some of those places, right?
But the ethos is just, we're, we're just glad you're here.
And that's what each one of us can do in our wards, in our
branches, in our relief societies, in our elders
quorums, in our young women's classes, in our young men's
classes, in all of these places. We can createspace for everyone
who wants to worship the Savior alongside us if they want to
walk in those doors or watch on Zoom right now.
But but if, if people want to be with us, we need to make space
for them to be with us. That's what the Lord calls us to
do. We may not have all the answers,
we may still be figuring stuff out, but we do know how to love
people. And that's what God calls us to
do. That's how we createspace for
the people who feel squeezed out to maybe breathe a little bit
and to find a little space for them to feel comfortable in our
community. And why do we do this?
Because we are all God's children, I am convinced that
God rejoices in the diversity he has made.
Paul talks about the body of Christ with all of its different
parts, right? The heart, the hands, the
fingers, the toes, the the head, all these kinds of things.
Why? Because we all have different
gifts. God has given all of his
children different gifts, and we need all those gifts in the
church. We don't just need a whole bunch
of hands. We don't just need a whole bunch
of toes or a whole bunch of livers, right?
We want the whole thing. We want all of those gifts.
And when the church looks like just a whole bunch of 1 body
part, it's not as rich. It's not what God has called it
to be. God calls us to bring in all of
His children, the entire body, the entire family of God, so
that we can be blessed by their gifts.
And so I'm convinced, brothers and sisters, that we can make
space for anybody who wants to be with us.
We can do that, but it requires us to be anxiously engaged.
We can't just be passive in this.
We have to createspace. That is an active thing that we
have to do. We can't ask people who are
feeling marginalized and alienated to make their own
space. That's too much of A burden
right now that they've got some decisions to to, you know, and,
and, and it's hard that they already have enough on their
plate if they're feeling squeezed out.
So we need to do all we can to createspace for as many people
as we can. That's what we're called to do.
All right, finally, as I, as I move towards wrapping up 3rd
category, people who feel tuned out, there's a lot of people who
just feel kind of bored and maybe you're feeling that way
right now. I apologize, OK?
But there's a lot of people who are not sure that this church,
that there's that much to it. They're not sure that there's
much fire here. There's much going on here and
there's a lot of people who just feel tuned out.
They're not, they're, they're not spiritually on fire.
They're, they're, they're not sure that this is a place where
they can give or that their great greatest energies will be
rewarded. Now, this is not new.
This kind of feeling within religion, It's not unique to to
our church. One of the great figures in 20th
century American religion was a guy named Abraham Joshua
Heschel. He was a Jewish rabbi, one of
the great leaders of 20th century Judaism, and he wrote a
book in 1955 called God in Search of Man.
And we normally think of the 1950s as like the high point of
religion in America. And in fact, during that decade,
more people attended church than any other decade in American
history. OK, so, so it was a high
watermark in lots of ways. But even then, Rabbi Heschel
looked around and he saw that not everything was right.
And he wrote this book that opens with this passage, which
is really strong stuff. It's powerful stuff.
Rabbi Heschel says it is customary to blame secular
science and anti religious philosophy for the eclipse of
religion and modern society. In other words, we we we blame
Darwin and Freud and Marx and and all those anti religious
people for all the problems we have.
OK, But Rabbi Heschel says it would be more honest to blame
religion for its own defeats. Religion declined not because it
was refuted, not because Darwin came up with some argument that
proved that religion was wrong. Religion declined not because it
was refuted, but because it became irrelevant, dull,
oppressive and insipid. When faith is completely
replaced by creed, worship by discipline, love by habit.
When the crisis of today is ignored because of the splendor
of the past. When faith becomes an heirloom
rather than a living fountain, when religion speaks only in the
name of authority rather than with the voice of compassion,
its message becomes meaningless. Those are strong words, but I
think more than 1/2 century later, they still speak to us
because I think there's too many among us, too many in the
broader Christian world. Those charts with Christians
going to like this and unaffiliated going like this.
There are too many people for whom their religion is
irrelevant, dull, oppressive, and insipid.
Well, I'm convinced, brothers and sisters, it doesn't have to
be that way. I'm convinced that the
Restoration does not have to be that way, that we can offer
something better than that. And we do offer something better
than that to people. It is the task of every
generation of the church to rediscover the gospel anew.
Every generation has to do it. We cannot.
We talked about not just leaning on on on other people's
testimonies, but we can't rely on the past generations
successes. The Pioneers church was for The
Pioneers. Your grandparents church was for
your grandparents. Today we have been called to
have this church. It, it is our church.
It's not The Pioneers church anymore.
They, they fought the good fight.
They're, they're, they've met their heavenly reward.
It is our church and we have to rediscover it and breathe new
life into it for a new generation, for today, for
20/21. We cannot rely just on the same
old, same old. This is what President Nelson is
teaching us. I he's, he's invigorating the
church as at what, 90? What is he 95 or whatever,
right? He is breathing new life into
the church and telling us that we can't just do the same things
the same way all the time. We have to breathe new life into
this thing is what it means to believe in an ongoing
restoration. We also believe why?
Why bother sticking with this church?
Why bother coming to church? Why bother with any any of it?
Well, I am convinced that the church is one of the great gifts
that God has given us to learn how to love.
The two great laboratories that God has given us to learn how to
love are the family and the church.
Why those two things? Because they're the two
communities, especially in terms of the latter day St.
understanding of church. They're the two things with
where you're surrounded by people that you didn't choose.
You didn't choose which family you get to choose who you marry.
So there's one thing. But after that, right, you don't
choose the family you're born into.
You don't choose the kids who come into your family unless you
adopt. But even then, you can't choose
what they do after that, right? You don't get to choose your
family. You're just told to love.
Same thing in the church. The the, the most, I think one
of the most beautiful things about the restored church is the
way we organize ourselves. We take a map, we draw a line
and we say love everybody inside that line.
That's your job. So, yeah, the person next to you
has who has political signs that drive you crazy, love that
person. The person down the road whose
kids drive too fast down the road, love that person, right?
The person who gets up and speaks in church and drives you
crazy, love that person. You don't get to choose which
church you go to. You don't get to go to a liberal
church or a conservative church or a, you know, a fancy church
or I mean, you don't get to choose any of that stuff.
This is the church you go to figure it out.
Learn to love people. It is a beautiful, it is the
only way to make Christians. It's the only way to make
Christians because it's easy to love the people you like.
It's hard to love the people that you're stuck with.
And that's exactly what the Lord calls us to do.
And then over time we realize, oh, maybe it's not so bad being
stuck with them. Maybe actually they have
something to teach me. And so the church is a
laboratory of love and, and it is exciting when we think about
it that way, when we think about the challenge that's associated
with being part of the church, it's anything but irrelevant and
oppressive and insipid. It's actually transformative.
Last thing I want to say here is, is to think about our
identity as Christians and what our mission is.
And I want to go back to the original statement of
Christianity. And what I mean by that is what
Jesus said the first time He got up to publicly preach when He
announced His public ministry as the Messiah.
Remember, he got up in the synagogue in Nazareth and he
went up and he opened the scroll to what we understand as Isaiah
chapter 61, and he read these words.
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because He has anointed me to
preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent me to heal the
broken hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and
recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them
that are bruised. We know this because we know
what Jesus did over the next three years in terms of His
ministry. This was His mission statement.
This is exactly what He did. He fulfilled to a tee what He
said when He got up in that synagogue in Nazareth.
He was surrounded by people who were poor, not only poor in
spirit, but actually poor, and his ministry was to them.
He was surrounded by the broken hearted, not just people who had
broken hearts and contrast spirits and chose to follow Him,
but people who whose hearts had been broken because of life.
The same is true of us today. Think about the people who are
who surround you, whose hearts are broken because of global
pandemics or divorces or deaths or financial setbacks or a
million other things that break our hearts.
Jesus came for them. Think about all those who are
captive, not only spiritually in bondage, but actually in bondage
in lots of different ways. We know that slavery still
exists in some places in this world.
We know people who are in bondage financially or captive
to bad marriages or all kinds of things.
Jesus came for them. Think about those who are blind.
Yes, spiritually blind, but also actually blind and deaf and
disabled. Jesus ministered to them.
And who among us isn't bruised just by going through this life
in a million different ways? Jesus is the Messiah of the
poor. He's the Messiah of the broken
hearted. He's the Messiah of the captive.
He's the Messiah of the blind. He's the Messiah of the bruised,
and if we're followers of Jesus, he asks us to do the same.
His mission statement becomes our mission statement.
This is what we're called to do. He did it in a unique way that
none of us can replicate, of course, but He calls us to do it
right alongside him. I can't think of anything more
exciting, more meaningful, more transformative, the opposite of
irrelevant and oppressive and dull and insipid.
I cannot think of anything more transformative than this.
This is what I want to do with my life.
I want to minister to the poor, the broken heart of the captive,
the blind, the breeze. I'm not very good at it, but I'm
in a place that teaches me and gives me opportunities to get
better. That's what Jesus calls us to
do. So for people who feel tuned
out, maybe what we need to do is actually do what Jesus asked us
to do and invite them to do it alongside us.
And I'm convinced, brothers and sisters, that we can do that.
This is that the church is exactly the gift that he's given
us to do that. In the in Ephesians chapter 2,
it talks about Christ's ministry, talks about what
Christ was called to do. But now in Christ Jesus you were
who were once far off, have been brought near by the blood of
Christ, for He is our peace in his flesh.
He has made both groups into one and has broken down the dividing
wall that is the hostility between us.
He came and proclaimed peace to you who are far off and peace to
those who are near. In the church today, in our
families, in our communities, in our wards, there are people who
feel far off because they're switched off or they're squeezed
out or they're tuned out. There are people who are feeling
far off. Jesus proclaims peace to them.
They're feeling pain, they're feeling betrayal, they're
feeling alienation. Jesus proclaims peace.
There are also people who are near, who are still in the
church, who are as active as ever, but whose hearts are also
broken because the people they love are struggling and they're
not sure what to do, and they're confused and they're struggling,
and Jesus proclaims peace to them.
Jesus isn't concerned so much with our categories of who's far
off and who's near, and he's certainly not interested in the
walls that we sometimes build between us, except to break down
those walls. What Jesus cares about is
calling each one of us to return and a proclaiming peace to each
one of us. We talk about being part of a
restored church. Brothers and sisters, we're also
participants in a restoring church, a church that is still
working to restore our Heavenly Father and Mother's children to
wholeness. That's what we're called to do,
whatever the issues are, whether it be faith crisis or whether it
be a million other ways in which people are broken and bruised in
this world. We are called to a ministry of
healing and to a ministry of peace, just like Jesus is.
And we can do this with confidence in our Savior.
And I say this in his holy name, Jesus Christ, Amen.
All right, well, I'm going to stop this chair.
We've, we've got the screen share.
We've we've got time for for a few questions and I'm going to
try and moderate this myself, but I think you're looking at it
too. So let me know if, if, if I miss
anything. OK, All right.
OK, so I've got the one in Q&A here and, and we'll just take a
few minutes and, and people here, I know you're not on your
phones, but you can ask questions too.
So I mean, you're, that's, that's all right too.
OK. So this question is given the
recent media interest in people like David Koresh, Warren Jeffs,
et cetera, how do we respond to those who see parallels in
Joseph Smiths leadership? I think that that's, that's a
great question. And you know, we in in our
church and in our community, we love and respect Joseph Smith as
the prophet of the restoration, right?
We know all the things that God did through him to bring about
this church and to bring about this restored scriptures and
priesthood and ordinances and covenants and all the things
that we love, right? But it doesn't take very much as
a, as a student or of, of church history to, to know that Joseph
Smith was not perfect, never claimed to be perfect.
And actually one of the things I like about the, the church's new
series, the Saints, the multi volume history of the church is
I think it's actually quite honest about many of Joseph
Smith's foibles and flaws. And he had many.
In Section 1 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord talked about
how he called Joseph Smith to speak to this age and to restore
the gospel. But he said he called him not
because Joseph Smith was anything special, but he said he
called him in his weakness. And so the Lord was as aware,
more aware than anyone of Joseph Smith's many flaws.
But this is the remarkable thing.
We're not members of the Church of Joseph Smith.
We respect him. We love him just like we love
one another despite our flaws. Joseph Smith was not a perfect
vessel. We don't have to claim that he
was a perfect vessel. It does not diminish the
restoration to be honest, about Joseph Smith's flaws.
Now, as a historian and as a scholar of religion, I think we
can weigh people's flaws. You know, I mean, it's
everybody's scale and balance is going to be a little bit
different in terms of what really matters to them.
I think on the whole, Joseph Smith comes out pretty well in
in balance. But it's not my job to weigh
Joseph Smith in the balance. He has an eternal judge who's
going to do that. But what I do weigh in the
balance are the things that came through Joseph Smith.
And I find those to be true and compelling.
And so, so no, Joseph Smith is not Warren Jeffs.
He's he's not some, he's not David Koresh, he's not a cult
leader, but he's also not perfect.
We don't have to claim that he was perfect.
In fact, when we claim that Joseph Smith is perfect, it
diminishes the work, the redemptive work of Jesus Christ,
right? Think about the Bible, the, the,
the, the story of the Bible and the prophets in the Bible.
The the Bible is littered with prophets who are deeply flawed.
I mean, read the Old Testament, OK, These are, it's like, read
the Testament, but the Old Testament.
But don't let your kids read the whole, the whole Old Testament.
I mean, there's some scary stuff in there, right?
OK. And there's some bad characters
in there, and some of them are prophets.
But the whole story of the Old Testament is of God working
through imperfect people, God redeeming his people despite
their imperfections. God doesn't abandoned his people
even when they turn their back on him.
The same model is true of Joseph Smith and any of our modern
prophets. They are not perfect.
They don't claim to be perfect. We don't claim that they're
perfect, but we do claim that Jesus is working through them.
And so, so, so I think, yeah, we, we, we can take into account
and we can study and we can look at Joseph Smith's character
again. On the whole, I find him to be
an admirable character, but he's not perfect.
And we don't have to claim to, we are in the, we are members of
the Church of Jesus Christ, not the Church of Joseph Smith.
OK, OK, so I'm going to go to chat now to, to some of these.
And, and this is going to be a little bit random.
I'm I'm going to go through and, and see what I can.
One person says that their faith crisis started after reading the
Church of proof sources. And, and that's the gospel
topics books and and, and Saints.
And, and I know that you're not alone.
This is one of the things I, I, I'm Privy a little bit to, to
some of the process that, that went behind those gospel topics
essays into Saints. And this was one of the, this
was one of the big conversations that happened among the
leadership of the church. They said, we want to be
transparent. We want to be honest about our
history. We, we feel like we've got
nothing to hide. We're not going to run from the
truth. We're not going to run from the
facts. So we're not afraid of those
things. I mean, the Joseph Smith Papers
project, it's amazing. I mean, they're pouring tons of
resources in publishing literally every document that's
ever that that Joseph Smith ever wrote or, or ever touched.
I mean, so talk about an effort in transparency, right?
But they also knew that in doing so and in putting these things
on the church website, in talking about the imperfections
and weaknesses and challenges in these things and doing it in
official church sources, that there were going to be some
people whose testimonies were shaken by that, not by what they
found on some random Google site, but what they found on the
church website. And I know that there were some
really tough and hard conversations about about this.
And we do know that for some people, it's it's precisely
those things that they encountered on approved church
resources that that led to questions that they didn't have
before. But the calculation was this,
they said, we know that this is going to be tough and we know
that there's going to there's, it's going to be difficult for
some people. But in the long term, it's going
to pay off when people are raised in the church, when
somebody because a lot of these things are finding their way
into church curriculum, into seminary and institute and to
other kinds of things. And so it's so especially for
people who are raised in the church hearing about these kinds
of things, then when they go to college or when they go and
encounter some of the stuff on Google, it's not going to be
what, how come nobody ever told me this?
It's instead, it's going to be, oh, I learned that in primary.
So we are in that moment of transition.
We're, we're still, this is hard for a lot of us who who were
raised sometimes with one narrative of church history.
And now we're getting a different, a slightly different
narrative of church history from the church itself.
There's this moment of transition, which isn't, which
isn't easy for some people in the long run.
The, the, the, the church has has made its bet with, with
being honest and forthright and, and talking about all these
things. And with the confidence that we
can do so in a context of faith that again, the whole is greater
than the sum of the parts that this is the Church of Jesus
Christ. So, so for, so for whoever is
struggling, you know, if, if, if you're, you know, if, if it is
those resources that that have caused you just to, to struggle,
I'm, I'm sorry. And, and again, those, those are
things that, that the brethren were, were aware of and knew
could be the case, but they obviously felt confident enough
that they felt like that, that the, the, the church is still
true, right. But, but we can, we can still
talk about these things. Let me, I'm just scrolling
through the, I was seeing Q&A. Sorry, it's hard to do 2 things
at once here. If I have friends that now don't
belong to any organized religion, how do we have
conversations with them? Do we tiptoe around religion or
do we open up about how we feel? I think this is a great question
because, and this is going to be more and more the case as more
and more people aren't part of organized religion, right?
I think we're, we're honest about who we are.
I mean, being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Day Saints is, is a huge part of who I am and for the people I
care about, for my friends and others.
I'm not going to hide that part of it any more than I'm going to
hide that I'm a huge Notre Dame football fan right now.
In the long run, one of those things is more important than
the other. On any given Saturday afternoon,
I'm not sure which is the most the most important, but but it's
it's, it's who we are, right? And so why would we hide that
from them now? I think we have to sometimes get
better at how we talk with people about religion.
A lot of people don't like religion.
A lot of people have left religion because they felt like
it's been shoved down their throats or they've been harmed
by it. And we have to be sensitive to
that. We don't want to be the cause
of, of any greater alienation. We don't want to be the cause of
any more harm or people feeling further pushed away from
religion. We want to be the, the, the, the
Catholic Saint Francis of Assisi, he said, preach the
Gospel at all times and if necessary, use words, right?
The, the, the quality of our example would be the greatest
testimony that we give to the, to the nature of our
Christianity. But we should use words too,
right? Especially among our friends.
We want to talk honestly about the things that are important to
us, but we don't want to shove it down people's throats.
We, we want to have the conversations that they want to
have. And one of the things that we
need to do better as Latter Day Saints is listen to other
people's questions. We, we sometimes get caught in
kind of a game of Jeopardy where we give, but you know, we, we're
the only good answers are the ones where people are the only
good questions are the ones where the answers are already
given, you know, because we feel like we have so many answers.
And so we want to force that on people as if, you know, we know
what their questions are. But a lot of times people aren't
asking the questions that we think they are.
We've, we've, we've sort of constructed a set of questions
that we think people have, but they don't always have those
questions. We need to actually listen to
people. And this is not just
missionaries. Missionaries need to do this,
but we all need to do this. We need to what, what do people
care about? What are they concerned about?
What are they afraid of? What are they anxious about?
And are there things that the restoration can speak to?
And so we have, we have to, we have to speak their language
and, and again, in, in, in love, but also in confidence, but
without arrogance. One question is, can you name
something specific that you think Joseph Smith did wrong?
Hearing they aren't perfect is not really addressing the issue
for me. No one is perfect.
Of course, that's right. So, OK, So what, what did Joseph
Smith do wrong? I mean, we can, we can talk
about specific things. I think that he was he was not
always fully honest, especially in public, about the the
practice of polygamy. We know, and again, the the
Church's Gospel Topics essay is very open about this.
When it was when the the practice was introduced in
Nauvoo, it was practiced in secret.
It was practiced among a very small group of people that
slowly expanded, but that most members of the Church in Nauvoo
and certainly the members of the Church in England and other
places outside of Nauvoo were, were not aware of what was going
on. When Joseph Smith was challenged
about some of these things, he gave statements that I think as
a, as a historian, I, I would say at best they're were
misleading and obfuse skating. And he was, he was in a, he was
in a, he was in a pickle. And he, and he was not always
fully forthright. He wasn't always fully honest
about his practice, including to his own wife.
And so, so as I look at that, I, that's, that's one of the hard
things for me when I look at, at, at Joseph.
And so so yeah, we, we, we can talk about specific things and
Saints talks about that, right. So again, we don't need Joseph
Smith to be perfect. And so, so yes, sometimes it's
tough. OK, going through chat is a
little bit tough. Let me let me do one thing and
then I think we're about out of time.
Is there one? There's one at the end.
Of. The stream I would love to have.
You which one? Address this one right here.
How do I trust again when that was broken?
OK, so the question is how do I trust again when when that trust
was broken? That's that's $1,000,000
question. I think that's a really good
place to end because it is like I said, it's, it's just like
relationships. It is it is really hard to
rebuild that trust. Couple of things that I would
say. So first of all, it is, it is
important to one of the constant messages in the Book of Mormon
especially, but throughout scripture is to remember it's,
it is essential for us to remember the Lord's mercies in
our lives, to remember the times, remember the spiritual
witnesses that we've had, to remember the times when the
Spirit has touched us when reading the Book of Mormon or
when preaching the gospel or when sitting in church and
hearing the gospel, when listening to General Conference,
when listening to the prophets and apostles.
It's really important to remember that and hold on to
those things. It's also really important, I
think to hold on to relationships.
And so here I'm not just talking about the relationship with the
church, but relationships with people inside the church, with
our family members and others. That's, that's one of the key
things is that the, that even in these, these relationships where
that have been predicated in so many ways upon the church and
membership. And this is especially true in
marriages, right, where two people get married and, and, and
they get sealed in the temple and the understanding is they're
going to be faithful members of the church.
And, and then if, if one changes their mind, that can be really
difficult, But there are ways, you know, to hold on to that
relationship even while one person is struggling with their
relationship to the church. So holding on to people and
holding on to, to the love and the relationships we have.
I, I had a friend tell me once who had left the church.
He said, you know, I, I could win the Nobel Prize and my mom
would still be disappointed in me because I don't go to church
on Sunday. All right now, on the one level,
I get that. I understand that, you know,
the, the kind of no empty seats at the table in the celestial
Kingdom and so forth. But here's the thing, our
Heavenly Mother and Heavenly Father care and love for us in
ways that go so far beyond what we understand, right?
So whatever feelings of loss or hurt or, or, you know, other
things we're feeling, we can trust that we have heavenly
parents who are reaching after reach, reaching out after each
one of their children. So that's, so that's, that's
for, you know, for, for the people who are, who are
struggling. But, but still the, the, the
question is about the people whose trust has been broken in
the church. How do we rebuild that?
I think it's done bit by bit, little by little.
It's finding a foothold wherever we can, right?
It may not all come at once. It, it may come by having to to
separate some things. And it has to come also through
through reworking some of our ideas.
What about what that relationship may be?
It's, it's probably going to look a little bit differently on
the other side than it did before somebody went through a
faith crisis. And that's OK, right?
It is OK for our religion to grow up with us.
It is OK for our religion to survive some bumps and bruises
and some scrapes along the way. That's called growing up.
We, we do this in every other area of our life, right?
No marriage is perfect, but but it survives, right?
And, and we, and we learn to forgive and then we're generous
and, and, and we, we accept the other person, even with all of
their, their flaws. Now, it means that sometimes we
have to reconsider what that means, right?
That the, the, that the person isn't as perfect as we thought
they were on the day we got married, right?
But we learn and grow. And so rebuilding trust in the
church can look a lot the same way is that that we learn that
we're not in relationship with a perfect thing, a perfect
institution, a perfect but, but we are in relationship as part
of a community that is striving to follow Christ and striving to
come to Christ. And so finding footholds
wherever we can. So if, if, if you're struggling
with the church, but love the Book of Mormon, dive into the
Book of Mormon. If you're struggling with the
Book of Mormon, but love the church, come and keep coming to
church, right? Find whatever foothold you can
and build upon that. The, the the Lord talked about
in section 93 and in other places that we, we go grace from
grace. And a lot of times this is
exactly what it means to have a testimony as we go from grace to
grace. We don't know all things.
And often times in the church we use this language of knowledge a
lot, especially from a pulpit like this.
I know, I know, I know. That's beautiful, it's powerful,
it is rich. It is one of the great spiritual
gifts that we've been given as Latter Day Saints, that we know
so many things and that so many of us feel like we've been given
a witness of the Spirit in such a way that we can say, I know,
XY or Z. But we can't always say that all
the time. And not everybody among us can
say that. And so it's OK.
Remember what in Alma Chapter 32 he talks about if you have even
a desire for these things, that's good.
If you have a desire to know these things.
So if somebody is asking the question, my trust is broken,
but how do I rebuild it? That is great because that shows
desire. That's what the Lord wants.
And so if somebody can't say I know, but they can say I hope or
I wish or I believe or I want or I desire, that's pretty good
stuff too. The Lord can take that.
The Lord is pleased with that, even with the smallest seed of
desire. And so build on that.
Build on that build wherever you can find a hand holder, a
foothold, whatever that looks like.
Keep the relationships you have, Keep talking with people, read
the scriptures, pray, hold on to Jesus who will all will always
hold on to you. There's so much more to talk
about. I'm sorry we couldn't get to
everything, brothers and sisters, but let me just leave
with with my testimony. First of all, I'm I'm I'm
available. I live right here in Logan.
You can find me very easily if you want to e-mail me about any
specific questions about church history or just want to find
somebody friendly to talk to. The fact that you've got a stake
presidency who set this up shows that you've got leaders who care
and are happy to talk about these things and who are not
afraid of talking about hard things.
This is what it means to minister to each other.
We're not, you know, we don't love it when people get cancer,
but we're not afraid of it, right?
We don't, you know, when people struggle with various things, we
mourn with them. We comfort with them.
This is what we do in the church.
And so, so feel free to reach out.
Feel free to do whatever can be done.
But let me just leave with, with my final testimony.
I I'm 44 years old and which is not very old, but older than
some like it's almost, it's like almost perfectly middle-aged,
right? I'm like so stereotypically
middle-aged in so many ways. I've got the bald patch.
I've got, you know, the the paunch, like so many things.
So I've had some experiences. I haven't had others.
I'm still waiting for other. I'm still raising kids.
I'm still in the thick of it. All these things, you know, in
the middle of mid career, all these kinds of things.
But I also feel like that over the past several years and the
last couple decades that I've grown in my testimony, the more
that I have focused on Jesus Christ and it has become more
and more meaningful to me to be a member of the Church of Jesus
Christ. I am grateful that President
Nelson has reminded us that this is the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter Day Saints. We are part of a restored and
restoring church. We are grateful for the
restoration of so many things. We're grateful for the
restoration of priesthood and of covenants and of ordinances and
of doctrine and of all kinds of things.
But ultimately, I've become convinced that those things were
always just a means to an end, and that our Heavenly Father and
Mother, what they want more than anything else in the world, is
the restoration of their family. They want to bring us all back.
They've given us the church to help do this.
They've given us families to help do this.
But they've mostly called us to do this in whatever way we can.
There's nothing I want more in this life in my middle age than
to simply be a Christian, to be the follower of Jesus.
And the Spirit has witnessed to me and a million experiences of
witness to me that this church is an extraordinary place to
become a Christian. There are other good places to
do it, too. I got lots of good friends and
lots of other churches who are amazing Christians who put me to
shame. But this is a church where God
has called me and has placed me to learn how to love.
And I'm grateful for that. I am grateful to have prophets
and apostles and scriptures and bishops and Relief Society
presidents and all kinds of things around me to teach me how
to love and to help me learn how to love.
Because that's all I want to do. That's all.
I'm not very good at it, but I want to.
And I think the church, I know the church can help us do that.
And so for me, it's worth holding on to with everything
I've got, even as we love every single one of our Heavenly
Father and Mother's children who are struggling because that's
what we're called to do. I witnessed that Jesus is the
Christ, that he is our peace. And I say that in the name of
Jesus Christ, Amen. We appreciate Brother Mason very
much for being with us tonight. We had, I don't know, an excess
of 20 questions come in. We apologize when we're not able
to get to those, but that would add a probably another hour to
the, the fireside beyond what we have allotted.
We we have recorded it and we'll likely have this up on our
Facebook page, Cash W Steak Facebook page later on if you
missed something. So we thank Patrick Mason very
much. Thank you for attending tonight
as well.