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Well, this is a one of the the 
blessings of working at Utah 

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State University is being able 
to associate with with Patrick 

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Mason who has been at the 
university. 

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How long Patrick? 
About two years. 

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Two years came in from 
California. 

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You were at Claremont Graduate 
College, Graduate University, 

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and then he was offered the 
Arrington chair at USU. 

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And so here he is. 
And so we we get to have him 

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here. 
It's a very timely message. 

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In recent years, virtually no 
member of the church has been 

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unaffected by faith crises, 
whether they're on or among 

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someone they love. 
So how can we faithfully, 

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honestly and lovingly meet the 
questions and doubts that often 

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arise both for ourselves and for
others? 

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So that's what Patrick Mason 
will speak to today. 

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Patrick Mason is the author of 
the book Planted Belief and 

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Belonging in an Age of Doubt, 
published by Deseret Book. 

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He's professor of religious 
studies and history at Utah 

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State University. 
And Patrick and his wife, 

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Melissa live in Logan with their
four children. 

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So we'll turn the time now over 
to Brother Mason after I clean 

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up the microphone for it. 
Thank you. 

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Tom. 
Didn't know when you'd recalled 

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in the stake presidency that 
you'd also be on janitorial duty

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up here too. 
But it's great to to see those 

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of you who are here, but 
especially all those who are 

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with us remotely. 
And these these are interesting 

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times we're in. 
I, we're all hoping and praying 

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that things are getting better, 
of course, and hopefully in a 

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few months we'll be able to do 
this kind of thing with a packed

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house all in person. 
But for those of you who are at 

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home in your pyjamas, you know, 
eat some Cheetos for me. 

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Well, well, we're here in the, 
the building. 

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So I'm, I'm thrilled to be here 
tonight. 

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And it's like, like President 
Williams said, I, I moved to 

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Logan with my family a couple 
years ago. 

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We've had just a fantastic 
experience here, been a great 

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place for us to, to be with our 
family, to raise our kids, to be

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part of the community. 
So, and, and as time goes on, 

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we, we look forward to 
associating. 

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We'll probably bump into a lot 
of you in the grocery stores and

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at other places around town. 
So I look forward to getting to 

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know you here as fellow 
Loganites. 

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But the, the topic that I wanted
to talk about tonight is not 

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necessarily an, an easy one for 
us. 

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So, so tonight we're going to 
talk about a topic that can be 

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difficult to talk about and 
specifically the issue of, of 

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doubt, of faith crisis, as it's 
commonly called. 

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And as President Williams noted,
I, I doubt that there's anyone 

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in the church, or very many at 
least that have not been 

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personally affected either in 
their own lives or somebody they

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know and love. 
A family member, a close friend,

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a ward member, somebody who in 
recent years has had serious 

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questions about their testimony,
serious doubts about the church 

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and really struggling with 
whether or not they would they 

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want to, to stay with the church
or, or maybe step away from it. 

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So this has affected all of us 
in a way. 

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And so it's important for us to 
talk about, even though it's 

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hard to talk about. 
And so that's what we're going 

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to do tonight. 
And I want to start with this 

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scripture from the New Testament
from the Savior in Luke chapter 

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18. 
It's a passage that might be 

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easy to miss, but I think it it 
really speaks to the issue 

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today. 
And he asks, when the Son of Man

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cometh, shall he find faith on 
the earth? 

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So when the Savior returns, 
which we believe and know he 

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will, will he find faith? 
Now, it used to be that I think 

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we could take this as a foregone
conclusion. 

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Of course he'll find people who 
are faithful. 

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I mean, there's always been 
people who have believed. 

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There's always been good, 
strong, faithful disciples of 

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Jesus on the earth. 
Even during the time when when 

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our church wasn't on the earth, 
there were always people who who

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believed in Jesus and worshipped
him. 

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So it seemed like kind of a 
foregone conclusion. 

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But if you look at some of the 
recent statistics and some of 

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the recent numbers that have 
come out, it doesn't seem like 

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such a foregone conclusion. 
So I'm going to start with some 

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of these numbers, which I'm just
going to warn you that the bad 

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news is coming up front here. 
All right. 

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So it's so it's, it's going to 
look be a little rocky here for 

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a few minutes, but then things 
things will get better. 

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So, so trust me. 
So there was this study that 

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came out a couple of years ago 
by a group called the the Pew 

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Forum. 
And the the Pew Forum is, is one

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of the most respected and 
largest institutions that 

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studies religion in the United 
States and around the world. 

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Widely respected, quoted and 
cited by scholars, also by by 

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church leaders. 
Actually, Elder Anderson in a 

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general conference talk recently
referred to to some of these 

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numbers. 
And so these are well respected 

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numbers. 
They published a report a couple

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of years ago in October of 2019,
which as you can see here, 

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talked about the decline of 
Christianity in the United 

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States. 
And so I want to give you some 

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of these numbers. 
And again, it's, it's a bit of a

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bleak picture now. 
I know it's going to be hard for

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you to see, especially maybe 
here in the room. 

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So, so let me talk through some 
of these charts. 

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You'll, you'll get a sense of it
just from looking at the 

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direction of some of these 
lines. 

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But so in 2007, if you look at 
the chart on the left, in 2007, 

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2008, when Pew called people up 
or surveyed people, however they

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did on the phone or on the 
Internet or whatever and asked 

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people, what religion are you? 
And this is people in the United

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States, about 7778% of people 
responded that they were 

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Christian. 10 years later, in 
2018-2019, when Pew asked the 

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exact same question, only 65% of
people in America said they were

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Christian. 
So in the space of a decade, 

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there was about a 12 or 13 
percentage point drop in the 

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number of people saying that 
they were Christian. 

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When asked during that same 
decade, from about 2007, 2008 

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until 2018, the percentage of 
people who, when they were asked

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what religion are you said none 
of the above. 

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Or I don't go to church, or I 
don't have a church, I don't 

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have a religion. 
We call them the unaffiliated. 

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There were about 16 or 17% who 
identified that way in 2007, 

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2008, a decade later, it was up 
to 26%. 

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On the right hand side, you, you
can see charts this. 

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They ask people, how often do 
you go to church? 

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And in 2007, about 5455% of 
Americans said they went to 

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church at least monthly. 
Ten years later, those numbers 

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had flaw had flipped exactly to 
where the number of people who 

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said they attended church at 
least monthly was only about 

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45%. 
And the number of people who 

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said they attended church less 
regularly than that which which 

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could be not at all, was about 
54%. 

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So those numbers flipped 
exactly. 

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Well, you could say, well, those
are just percentages. 

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What about actual numbers that 
could be explained by 

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immigration or any number of 
things? 

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Well, here's the actual numbers 
of people. 

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So during that same decade from 
about 2009 to about 2019, the 

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total the actual number of 
Christians in the United States 

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declined from about 178 million 
to 167,000,000. 

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So a drop of 11,000,000 actual 
people in the space of a decade 

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who who self reported being 
Christian. 

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Now, the amazing number is the 
the line at the bottom, and that

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traces the number of people who 
again say that they're not 

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affiliated with any religion. 
This isn't people who are in 

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other religions like the 
they're, they're Jewish or 

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they're Muslim or Hindu or 
something like that. 

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These are people who claim no 
religious identity at all. 

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In the United States, that 
jumped from 39 million people in

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2009 to 68,000,000 Americans a 
decade later, 30 million more 

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Americans in the space of only a
decade said that they no longer 

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affiliated with any religion at 
all. 

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That's unbelievable. 
I mean, we never see those kinds

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of changes that kind of jump in 
such an important thing like 

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religious identity in the space 
of only a decade. 

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OK. 
And you and, and I know this 

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will be impossible for you to 
see here in the room, but but 

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you might say, oh, that's just 
certain kinds of people. 

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But actually the studies show 
that this is true of every 

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demographic group. 
So men and women, every 

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generational cohort, every 
racial group, people who are 

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have a college education, people
who don't have a college 

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00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,720
education, people in every 
region of the country, 

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00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,720
Democrats, Republicans, 
liberals, conservatives, in 

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every single demographic group 
in the United States, we're 

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00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,320
seeing a significant decline in 
the number of Christians and a 

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00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,640
significant increase in the 
number of people who do not 

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00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:26,160
affiliate with any religion. 
OK, so all of that just goes to 

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say that that this is, this is 
kind of the overall trend 

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sometimes when it happens in 
your family, right, or in your 

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00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,320
ward, you, you might think like 
we're the only ones. 

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00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,200
You might, you might think 
we're, we're, we're alone in 

168
00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,520
this. 
But in fact, this is not just an

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00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:42,880
issue for the Church of Jesus 
Christ of Latter Day Saints. 

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This is not just about our 
church. 

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00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,040
This is about all churches in 
America right now. 

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This is the water we're swimming
in right, right now. 

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And if you're a religious 
person, if you care about 

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religion, times are tough and 
we're increasingly swimming 

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against the stream. 
Now, this chart shows retention 

176
00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,120
rates among Latter Day Saints 
for different generational 

177
00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:07,640
cohorts. 
And when I when we're talking 

178
00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,280
about retention here, we're not 
talking about convert retention,

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00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,600
the number of adults who get 
baptized who then stay with the 

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00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:15,120
church like a year later or five
years. 

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00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,600
This is about people who are 
raised in the church who then 

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00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,320
stay with the church into 
adulthood. 

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00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,720
OK, So for people who were in 
the, the, the silent generation 

184
00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:30,520
or, or, or the boomer, the baby 
boomers, the church retained 

185
00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:35,520
about 72 to 75% of those folks. 
That is phenomenal. 

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00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,080
I mean that this is one of the 
reasons why the church grew so 

187
00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,400
quickly in the, in the last part
of the 20th century is because 

188
00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:43,680
it kept all the kids who were 
born into the church. 

189
00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:47,000
And there were a lot of kids 
born into the church during that

190
00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,400
time period. 
And this is just phenomenal 

191
00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:54,280
compared to, to other churches 
to, to retain 3/4 of the people 

192
00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,880
who were born into your church. 
You can see it dropped off a 

193
00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:58,720
little bit in my generation, I'm
a Gen. 

194
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:03,360
Xer to about 62%. 
But then among millennials fell 

195
00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,320
off the Cliff. 
And according to this study, 

196
00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,080
different studies show different
things. 

197
00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,880
But, but, but these, these 
numbers show that that the 

198
00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,560
church retains only about 46% of
millennials. 

199
00:11:14,560 --> 00:11:16,840
Again, these are people who were
born in the church, raised in 

200
00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,800
the church, who then choose not 
to stick with the church into 

201
00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,840
adulthood. 
So less than half, according to 

202
00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,160
this particular study. 
So we're seeing big changes. 

203
00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,040
I'm going to skip over this 
because this is going to be 

204
00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,360
impossible for you to see. 
But basically, not only are we 

205
00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:36,760
seeing fewer people staying with
the church, but actually lower 

206
00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:41,840
levels of confidence in some of 
the church's basic teachings in 

207
00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,640
terms of of how, how strongly do
you feel about such and such a 

208
00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:50,040
doctrine that are that across 
the generations, it's getting 

209
00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,920
less and less. 
So what do we do with this? 

210
00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,000
OK, how do we, how do we deal 
with this? 

211
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,760
So, so at once it's, it's a 
broader general pattern. 

212
00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:03,360
And I'm sure you've all seen 
this, right? 

213
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:04,840
I mean, you've seen this in the 
broader culture. 

214
00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,800
You've maybe seen this among 
neighbors and other kinds of 

215
00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:12,760
things, a general pattern in 
American Society of fewer people

216
00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,600
going to church, fewer people 
identifying as Christians of of 

217
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,000
all sorts, and more and more 
people being willing to to 

218
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,400
publicly say they don't 
affiliate with religion at all, 

219
00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,080
especially among younger people,
especially among millennials and

220
00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:27,800
Gen. 
Z, OK. 

221
00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:32,640
And at the same time, though, 
lots of people are staying with 

222
00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:34,440
religion, right? 
And a lot of people feel as 

223
00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,200
strongly about it as ever. 
And so how do we, how do we 

224
00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,920
navigate this? 
How do we deal with this new 

225
00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:42,800
reality? 
And that's what it is. 

226
00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:44,760
It's a new reality. 
It's not something we can just 

227
00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,000
wish away. 
It's not something we can 

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pretend it isn't happening 
because again, it's happening 

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00:12:49,560 --> 00:12:52,880
within our families. 
It's within our marriages, among

230
00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,440
with our friends, among our ward
members, right? 

231
00:12:55,440 --> 00:13:00,080
The people that we love. 
So this isn't just a theoretical

232
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:01,760
problem. 
This isn't just a theoretical 

233
00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:03,960
issue. 
This is the people that we love.

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00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:09,240
And what happens when somebody 
that you love decides to leave 

235
00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,440
the church? 
What do you do? 

236
00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,680
And so this is exactly what led 
me to to think about this, to 

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00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:18,760
write about this a little bit. 
And so that's what I want to 

238
00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,840
talk about tonight is to think 
about first of all, what is 

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00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,360
going on. 
And, and so we'll, we'll shift 

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00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,560
now from the kind of general 
American situation and, and now 

241
00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:30,880
talk specifically about our 
church, the Church of Jesus 

242
00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,600
Christ of Latter Day Saints. 
So what is going on? 

243
00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,920
How do we understand it? 
Why do people leave the church 

244
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:39,800
or struggle with doubts and so 
forth? 

245
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:45,040
And how can we minister 
effectively and honestly and 

246
00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:49,720
lovingly with compassion, with 
honesty, when, when people have 

247
00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:51,800
questions and when people have 
doubts? 

248
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,120
OK, again, it's not just 
something we can wish away. 

249
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,760
So now one thing that I've found
is I've talked to lots and lots 

250
00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,080
of people is that every story is
different. 

251
00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:01,480
Of course, every person is 
different. 

252
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,680
No, no people, no two people, 
No2 situations are the same. 

253
00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:07,960
But with that said, I've talked 
to enough people at this point 

254
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:13,640
that that I begin to see some 
some general patterns of some 

255
00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:18,320
reasons why people struggle and 
with with with doubts about the 

256
00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,640
church and sometimes to such a 
point that they choose to walk 

257
00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:23,520
away. 
So I put these in three 

258
00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,960
different buckets or categories.
And again, this is overly 

259
00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,520
generalizing because every 
person is different, but it 

260
00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,440
sometimes it helps just to think
in terms of general patterns. 

261
00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:36,200
So I want to talk tonight about 
people who feel switched off, 

262
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:42,680
people who feel squeezed out, 
and people who feel tuned out. 

263
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,880
So switched off, squeezed out 
and tuned out. 

264
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,360
OK, So what do I mean by these? 
All right, so first of all, 

265
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:53,160
switched off. 
What I mean here is generally 

266
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,160
people who struggle with their 
testimonies, struggle with the 

267
00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,360
church because of doctrinal or 
historical or intellectual 

268
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,360
issues. 
They find some aspect of the 

269
00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:06,600
church, church's history that 
troubles them, some aspect of 

270
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,480
the church's doctrine taught 
either present or past that that

271
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,760
really troubles them. 
So it's, it's kind of a, it's, 

272
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,880
it's, it's a struggle with them 
in, in terms of how they think 

273
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,560
about the church. 
And let me give you again, every

274
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,800
story is different, but let me 
give you an example of what this

275
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:22,800
might look like for a lot of 
folks. 

276
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,480
It begins actually quite 
innocently. 

277
00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,080
I mean, they are, they're firmly
grounded in the church. 

278
00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,880
They're active serving in 
colleagues and so forth. 

279
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,320
And they, I've talked to lots of
people who is it? 

280
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,040
It begins just with searching on
the Internet sometimes to 

281
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,520
prepare a lesson, you know, a 
young women's lesson or 

282
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:42,960
something like that. 
And they want to find out 

283
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,000
additional information about the
topic. 

284
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,800
And so they go start going to do
some research and they stumble 

285
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:53,400
across something on the Internet
that troubles them, which is a 

286
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,320
little maybe different from what
they've heard at church, 

287
00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,360
something they've never heard 
about maybe at all. 

288
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:04,200
And at first the impulse might 
be to simply dismiss it as anti 

289
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,160
Mormon garbage, right? 
Because there's plenty of anti 

290
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,600
Mormon garbage on the Internet, 
right? 

291
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,360
But but this particular thing, 
they, as they start to look into

292
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,480
it a little bit more, they 
realize, wait a minute, there's 

293
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,760
something to this. 
It isn't just garbage. 

294
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,040
It's not just made-up. 
There's actually something here,

295
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,080
and we know what these issues 
are. 

296
00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:30,360
There's there's a long list, but
there's about a dozen or so 

297
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,000
issues that come up pretty 
consistently for people. 

298
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,840
And we know what those issues 
are because actually the church 

299
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,120
knows what those issues are 
because of its own research and 

300
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,920
from listening to people. 
And so a few years ago, the 

301
00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,800
church published a series of 
essays on the church's website, 

302
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,360
lds.org, now 
churchofjesuschrist.org, called 

303
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,400
the Gospel Topics Essays. 
And probably a lot of you are 

304
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,600
familiar with these essays. 
Probably a lot of you have have 

305
00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:58,440
seen these. 
OK. 

306
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,880
But the church knew exactly what
these issues that consistently 

307
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,760
came up among people, what they 
were. 

308
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,040
And so they they wrote a series 
of essays. 

309
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:13,119
Now, these essays were written 
by historians, people who are 

310
00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:17,000
professional historians who had 
spent years studying that topic.

311
00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,839
Most of them were not employees 
of the church, so members of the

312
00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:23,440
church, but not employees of the
church. 

313
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,440
So, so the church commissioned 
these outside historians to work

314
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,880
on these issues to write, to 
come up with the best research. 

315
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,840
What are the facts about this 
particular issue. 

316
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,560
And then they worked alongside 
the Church history department. 

317
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,120
And then each of these essays, 
when they were written, then it 

318
00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:40,760
was sent through the correlation
process and went all the way up 

319
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,320
to the First Presidency in 
quorum of the 12 for approval. 

320
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,120
So every one of these essays, 
when you go look at them on 

321
00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:49,240
churchofjesuschrist.org, every 
single one of these has been 

322
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,640
written by professional 
historians who were experts on 

323
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,400
the topic and approved by the 
1st presidency in Coram of the 

324
00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,760
12 apostles. 
Now, what are these issues? 

325
00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,440
Again, there's about, I think 
there's 12 or 13 of these 

326
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,840
essays. 
They range on a whole range of 

327
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,360
topics from race and the 
priesthood to Joseph Smith 

328
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,080
translating the Book of Mormon 
using cedar stones to Joseph 

329
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,360
Smith's translation of the Book 
of Abraham, the Mountain Meadows

330
00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:17,880
Massacre, questions about 
polygamy, some more questions 

331
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,520
about polygamy and some more 
questions about polygamy. 

332
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:23,480
A lot of questions about 
polygamy. 

333
00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:28,520
And, but, and, and then several 
that I'm I'm forgetting off the 

334
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,120
top of my head. 
And, and so, but these were the 

335
00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:34,600
issues that consistently came up
for people that they had 

336
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,120
questions. 
And so the church addressed 

337
00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:38,160
these in, in the best way they 
could. 

338
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:39,600
I mean, now the essays aren't 
perfect. 

339
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,120
They're, they're short. 
There's a lot more to to be said

340
00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:45,480
about all of these issues, but 
these are honest, forthright 

341
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:51,160
attempts to talk about these 
issues in a way that, that, that

342
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,680
that actually is not destructive
of faith in which the, in which 

343
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:56,720
the church puts these things 
into context. 

344
00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:01,040
But still, if we go back to that
person who found that fact on 

345
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,880
the Internet, OK, found that 
thing on the end and again, 

346
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:05,920
discovered that, wait a minute, 
this isn't just a lie. 

347
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,960
There's something to this walk 
with me and think with me 

348
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,680
through the thought process or, 
or often times the emotional 

349
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,960
process of finding that. 
And, and so a lot of people say,

350
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,760
OK, I, I, I found that. 
And as I dug into it, I realized

351
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,040
that there was something to it. 
And I began to wonder how come 

352
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,680
nobody ever told me about this? 
I've spent my life in the 

353
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,280
church. 
I've spent years in the church. 

354
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,560
I went on a mission, I've served
in Collins. 

355
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,560
I went to seminary, I went to 
institute. 

356
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,080
I've been to going to Gospel 
doctrine for years and years and

357
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,920
years, right? 
How come nobody ever told me 

358
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,040
about this? 
And then some people say, well, 

359
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:42,960
what else aren't they telling 
me? 

360
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,760
And there can be. 
And, and so you can, you can, 

361
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,360
you can see here what, what, 
what the, the, what, what the 

362
00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:54,640
kind of thought process is. 
And what it becomes is a loss of

363
00:19:54,640 --> 00:20:01,520
trust, even a sense of betrayal,
that I've spent years and years 

364
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,520
going to church or going to 
church classes and nobody ever 

365
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,560
told me. 
About this particular thing, why

366
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,280
not? 
What are they hiding, right? 

367
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,520
And so this loss of trust, faith
is nothing if not trust, right? 

368
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,760
It's just like any relationship.
It's really easy to break trust,

369
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,240
but it's really hard to build 
it. 

370
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,760
And once somebody feels like 
their trust has been broken, 

371
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,760
it's re or, or is, is kind of 
borderline, it's hard to rebuild

372
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:29,560
that. 
So a lot of people feel like 

373
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:35,080
their trust has been lost. 
And So what do we do when that 

374
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:39,720
happens, OK, for those? 
And so this is what I mean by 

375
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,080
people who feel switched off. 
These are people who at one 

376
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,360
point felt switched on, right? 
And then something happens, they

377
00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:50,400
learn about something or a 
constellation of things and that

378
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,880
leads them to feel switched off.
They don't feel the same way 

379
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:54,960
they used to. 
They're, they're not sure if 

380
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,240
they can listen to and trust the
leaders of the church, the 

381
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,560
materials that the church puts 
out, etcetera. 

382
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,160
So what do we do when somebody 
feels switched off? 

383
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,360
Well, a couple of things that 
that I tell to people who are 

384
00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:08,960
struggling with this, who are 
encountering this. 

385
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,760
So first of all, we don't argue 
with the facts, right? 

386
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:14,400
The facts are what the facts 
are. 

387
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,200
And this is exactly what the 
church tried to address in these

388
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,320
gospel topics essays, right? 
So we don't, don't argue with 

389
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,080
the facts. 
We don't try to argue them away.

390
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:28,800
But those facts, whatever they 
are, those facts do not compel 

391
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,920
disbelief. 
And here's what I mean by that. 

392
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:37,240
There's a whole lot of people 
who know all of those facts, all

393
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,880
of those things that you just 
read on Google, right? 

394
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,360
Or all of those things that you 
just read on some blog or 

395
00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:45,680
listened to on a podcast or, or 
discovered in a book somewhere. 

396
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,320
All of those things, There are 
lots and lots of people who have

397
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,080
also read those same things and 
they haven't lost their 

398
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,560
testimony and they've worked 
through it and they've found a 

399
00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,520
way actually for their testimony
to come out stronger on the 

400
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,160
other side. 
And I can say that with 

401
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,200
confidence because I'm one of 
those people, right? 

402
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,040
I mean, I've, I've spent years 
studying these kinds of things. 

403
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,000
My first book was on anti 
Mormonism. 

404
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,680
I've read, I think, pretty much 
what there is to read out there.

405
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,280
And not only have I come through
with my faith intact, but 

406
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,960
actually my faith in the gospel 
of Jesus Christ and in the 

407
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,520
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Day Saints and its leaders has 

408
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,560
never been stronger. 
There is a way to deal with 

409
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,320
these things constructively and 
productively and to put them 

410
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,480
within a context and a framework
of faith. 

411
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,120
It does not have to lead to the 
destruction of 1's testimony. 

412
00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:38,320
Now, again, I understand how 
tough it is to wrestle with some

413
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,480
of these things. 
Some of these things are hard to

414
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,120
wrestle with. 
But there is light at the end of

415
00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:45,680
the tunnel. 
There is a way through and it's 

416
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,080
important that we recognize that
there is hope. 

417
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,960
And one of the things that we 
can do is we can disaggregate. 

418
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,400
We can, we can separate the 
things that we know, the 

419
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,280
experiences that we've had, the 
witness of the spirit that we've

420
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,080
had from these kinds of 
questions that we have. 

421
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,080
It's not that those questions 
don't matter, right? 

422
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,440
But if there's a way that we can
also hold on to the things that 

423
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,200
we've felt and the experiences 
that we've had within the 

424
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,960
church. 
And so that we can discern not 

425
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,720
only truth from error, but also 
the things that are most 

426
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,920
important to us and the things 
that are going to lead us in a 

427
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,800
life of Christ. 
Now, there's lots more to say, 

428
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:21,600
say there, but I want to move 
on. 

429
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,640
And I want to talk about what 
about those who are still 

430
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,040
switched on, right? 
What if you're the person who's 

431
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:33,200
still in the church and your 
testimony is still intact and 

432
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,640
you're still going strong, but 
that somebody you love is really

433
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,440
struggling, What do you do? 
And I think this is the 

434
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:45,000
$1,000,000 question for for 
those of us who are still in the

435
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:49,840
church, what do we do to 
minister and to love those who 

436
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:51,560
are struggling with faith 
crisis? 

437
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,680
Well, it seems to me the first 
thing we do is we go back to our

438
00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,400
baptismal covenant and remember 
that baptismal covenant is 

439
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,280
sketched out in a few different 
places in the scripture, my 

440
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,400
favorite places in Mosiah 
chapter 18. 

441
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,720
You remember this when when 
they're baptizing people in the 

442
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,520
waters of Mormon and it talks 
about the covenant that they 

443
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,960
made as they went into those 
waters. 

444
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:17,360
And it said that they were what 
they covenanted, that they were 

445
00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:20,000
willing to bear one another's 
burdens, that they might be 

446
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,440
light and to mourn with those 
who mourn, to comfort those who 

447
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,840
stand in need of comfort. 
That was the first thing that 

448
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:32,000
they covenanted to do. 
Now I can tell you, and I'm 

449
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,320
you've probably had these 
conversations too, For for 

450
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,280
people who are going through 
faith crisis, it is often times 

451
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,600
the hardest thing they've gone 
through in their entire life. 

452
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:45,760
It often came uninvited. 
It often came, you know, in, in,

453
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,240
in ways that people didn't 
expect it. 

454
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,560
It is it is affecting their 
relationships. 

455
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,040
It's affecting their marriages, 
the relationship with their 

456
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,280
parents, with other ward member,
with other people. 

457
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,280
There's, there's a kind of 
bewilderment that that that can 

458
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,000
happen with this. 
And for a lot of people, it is 

459
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,240
the hardest thing, the most 
painful thing they've ever gone 

460
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:11,120
through. 
And so we've covenanted to mourn

461
00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:14,560
with those who mourn and comfort
those who stand in need of 

462
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,520
comfort. 
We don't get to choose, oh, I'm 

463
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,840
going to mourn with certain 
kinds of people and certain kind

464
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:20,920
of mourning, or I'm going to 
comfort people or who are in 

465
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:22,920
need of certain kind of, you 
know, when somebody breaks their

466
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:24,360
leg, I'm going to take him a 
casserole. 

467
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:26,560
But faith crisis? 
No, sorry, not doing that, 

468
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,200
right? 
We don't get it. 

469
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:29,840
We don't get to make that 
choice. 

470
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,920
Our covenant was to mourn with 
people whatever is causing them 

471
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:38,720
mourning, to comfort them 
whatever they need comfort with,

472
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,800
to bear whatever their burdens 
look like. 

473
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,280
Now the covenant goes on. 
There will be a time to stand as

474
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,600
a witness at all times and all 
places and all things. 

475
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:51,840
There'll be a time. 
But, but for whatever reason, 

476
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,960
this covenant was written in 
such a way that the first thing 

477
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,120
we do is to mourn with those who
mourn and comfort those who 

478
00:25:58,120 --> 00:26:00,520
stand in need of comfort. 
We don't relinquish our 

479
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,280
testimony. 
We don't have to give an inch on

480
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,840
our testimony. 
We can remain firm in the things

481
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,600
that that that we believe and 
with that we know even when the 

482
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,560
people around us are struggling.
But we are called to love. 

483
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:14,720
And why? 
Because that is exactly what 

484
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,680
Jesus does with us. 
In whatever our burdens are, 

485
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,720
whatever our form of mourning, 
whatever we need comfort. 

486
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,720
Jesus stands first in love, not 
in judgment. 

487
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,840
Remember, we love God because he
loved us first. 

488
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,640
So for all of us, whether people
are here feeling switched off or

489
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,040
whether for those who are those 
of us who are still in the 

490
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,400
church and feeling switched on, 
for all of us, the Christian 

491
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,360
virtues still apply. 
That we show love to one 

492
00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:47,320
another, That we try to exercise
hope for better relationships 

493
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,920
and a better future. 
That we're generous towards one 

494
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,400
another, that we forgive when 
needed. 

495
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,920
All right, all of those things 
that we are humble, recognizing 

496
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,680
that we don't know everything. 
We certainly don't know what's 

497
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,000
in other people's hearts and 
heads. 

498
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:02,560
We don't know everything in 
history. 

499
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,000
We don't know everything about 
anything. 

500
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,160
All right, So humility. 
So all these things that were 

501
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:13,040
taught in the Church, all these 
Christian virtues apply both as 

502
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,480
we minister to those who are in 
faith crisis and as people go 

503
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:21,680
through faith crisis themselves.
OK, so that's a little bit about

504
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,360
switched off. 
Let let me move, let me move on 

505
00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:26,400
and talk about these other two 
categories and then I'll close 

506
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,080
and we'll, we'll have a few 
minutes for questions. 

507
00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:31,680
OK, so if that was switched off,
So what about squeezed out? 

508
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:36,080
So here, what I mean by this is 
people who are struggling with 

509
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,520
the church because of social or 
cultural issues and they're not 

510
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,480
sure if there's a place for them
in this church. 

511
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:47,160
They, they, they wonder if they 
feel constrained or they feel 

512
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,400
squeezed out and they're, and 
they're not sure that this is a 

513
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,080
place where they can worship 
Christ. 

514
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,840
OK, Now this, this can be all 
kinds of things, but the, the 

515
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:01,040
things that most directly 
confront the issue today or the 

516
00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:06,120
confront the church today are 
issues around women's equality 

517
00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:10,360
and women's leadership in the 
church and then LGBTQ issues. 

518
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,480
OK. 
And in in a lot of ways, 

519
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,000
actually in recent years, these 
issues in some ways have 

520
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,840
eclipsed some of the issues that
the kind of switched off type 

521
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:21,240
issues. 
But but all of them are, are 

522
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,120
still in play. 
Well, you know, these are tough 

523
00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:27,840
issues. 
These are tough issues because 

524
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,080
as a community we're still 
learning and we're still 

525
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,200
growing. 
Now think it. 

526
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,200
Think just how much we've 
learned and grown as a 

527
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,960
community, as a church in the 
past few years around women's 

528
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,240
leadership and about women's 
roles. 

529
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,880
Think about what we've learned 
in recent years about the 

530
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,560
relationship of women in the 
priesthood and the way that 

531
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,200
women exercise priesthood in the
temple, in the home, in the 

532
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:51,600
church. 
Think about everything the 

533
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,800
President Oakes and others of 
the Brethren and sisters have 

534
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,560
taught us about this. 
We have learned so much. 

535
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,600
We are growing in our 
understanding of what priesthood

536
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,200
is and what priesthood means and
how it is exercised by men and 

537
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,720
by women. 
That's a great thing. 

538
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,480
So we still, we're, we're still 
growing. 

539
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,240
We're still learning. 
Think how much we've grown in 

540
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,240
terms of incorporating women in 
leadership positions and 

541
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,880
actually respecting and 
listening to their voices in 

542
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,920
ward councils, in stake 
councils, in all kinds of 

543
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:25,000
settings. 
Right? 

544
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,520
Have we figured it all out yet? 
Heavens no, right? 

545
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,760
We're still wrestling with this.
There's still a lot of women who

546
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,160
feel like their voices are 
unheard and their experiences 

547
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,840
are not validated. 
We have a long way to go. 

548
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,520
OK? 
But we are learning so much as a

549
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:41,960
church. 
And I think we're better now 

550
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,280
than we were 10 years ago or 20 
years ago or 50 years ago. 

551
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,760
And so we're still learning and,
and I think the Lord is teaching

552
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,760
us and hopefully we're listening
what it means and what the 

553
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,120
proper relationship between men 
and women are within the church 

554
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:03,120
and how priesthood is, is for 
all of God's children in the 

555
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,040
various ways that it's 
exercised. 

556
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,400
OK, so we're learning there 
LGBTQ issues. 

557
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,880
I mean, these things, these 
these issues have have raised up

558
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,920
just in my lifetime for sure, 
really in in my adult lifetime 

559
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,560
over the past 2025, thirty 
years, right. 

560
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:26,080
And we, I, I think we can all 
admit we are all learning and 

561
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:30,080
growing and stretching here in 
an area that just wasn't on our 

562
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,880
radar in any significant way a 
generation or two ago. 

563
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,120
And there are a lot of people 
who are struggling. 

564
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,800
There is a lot of pain in the 
church right now. 

565
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,480
There is a lot of people with a 
lot of questions right now about

566
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,760
whether this church can be a 
place for them to find Christ 

567
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,720
and to worship Christ. 
Now, I don't have all the 

568
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,320
answers. 
I sustain the brethren, the 

569
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:58,280
prophets and apostles whose 
prerogative it is to receive 

570
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,240
revelation and declare doctrine 
for the Church. 

571
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,480
But what can we do at a local 
level, even while we're still 

572
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,160
growing and learning and 
figuring things out? 

573
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,840
Well, the one thing we're all 
called to do is to be 

574
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:17,640
Christians, to love my wife and 
I, We've, we've lived in, in 

575
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,600
lots of different places. 
We've lived around the world. 

576
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,440
We've lived in, in branches and 
wards, not only throughout the 

577
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,280
United States, but also in 
places like Egypt and Romania. 

578
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,640
And, and one of the things that 
we've loved about the wards and 

579
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,760
branches that we've been in, 
especially outside the Western 

580
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,640
United States where, where the 
church is sparser and especially

581
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,520
in places like Romania and Egypt
where it's really sparse. 

582
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,800
But when you walk into one of 
those wards and branches, and 

583
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,120
maybe some of you have been in, 
in those kinds of branches and, 

584
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,960
and wards as well. 
When you walk in, the feeling 

585
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,560
is, or when anybody walks in 
those doors, the feeling is, 

586
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,680
thank you for being here. 
We're glad you're here. 

587
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:56,880
We don't care what you're 
wearing. 

588
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,440
We don't care what you look 
like. 

589
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,600
You know, we, we don't care. 
I mean, just thank you for being

590
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,280
here. 
We're glad that you've come and 

591
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,080
want to worship with us. 
And we're going to figure this 

592
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:07,840
out. 
And we're one big happy family 

593
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,920
or one small happy family in 
some of those places, right? 

594
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,640
But the ethos is just, we're, 
we're just glad you're here. 

595
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:21,480
And that's what each one of us 
can do in our wards, in our 

596
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,280
branches, in our relief 
societies, in our elders 

597
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,560
quorums, in our young women's 
classes, in our young men's 

598
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:34,840
classes, in all of these places.
We can createspace for everyone 

599
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:39,200
who wants to worship the Savior 
alongside us if they want to 

600
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,720
walk in those doors or watch on 
Zoom right now. 

601
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:47,600
But but if, if people want to be
with us, we need to make space 

602
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,720
for them to be with us. 
That's what the Lord calls us to

603
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,840
do. 
We may not have all the answers,

604
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,680
we may still be figuring stuff 
out, but we do know how to love 

605
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,400
people. 
And that's what God calls us to 

606
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,200
do. 
That's how we createspace for 

607
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,960
the people who feel squeezed out
to maybe breathe a little bit 

608
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:12,240
and to find a little space for 
them to feel comfortable in our 

609
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,080
community. 
And why do we do this? 

610
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:20,040
Because we are all God's 
children, I am convinced that 

611
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,800
God rejoices in the diversity he
has made. 

612
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,160
Paul talks about the body of 
Christ with all of its different

613
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,080
parts, right? 
The heart, the hands, the 

614
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,480
fingers, the toes, the the head,
all these kinds of things. 

615
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,120
Why? 
Because we all have different 

616
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,000
gifts. 
God has given all of his 

617
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,360
children different gifts, and we
need all those gifts in the 

618
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,080
church. 
We don't just need a whole bunch

619
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:47,960
of hands. 
We don't just need a whole bunch

620
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,320
of toes or a whole bunch of 
livers, right? 

621
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,520
We want the whole thing. 
We want all of those gifts. 

622
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,280
And when the church looks like 
just a whole bunch of 1 body 

623
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,520
part, it's not as rich. 
It's not what God has called it 

624
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,720
to be. 
God calls us to bring in all of 

625
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:10,440
His children, the entire body, 
the entire family of God, so 

626
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,159
that we can be blessed by their 
gifts. 

627
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,719
And so I'm convinced, brothers 
and sisters, that we can make 

628
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,360
space for anybody who wants to 
be with us. 

629
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:25,960
We can do that, but it requires 
us to be anxiously engaged. 

630
00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:28,480
We can't just be passive in 
this. 

631
00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:33,440
We have to createspace. 
That is an active thing that we 

632
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,639
have to do. 
We can't ask people who are 

633
00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:38,120
feeling marginalized and 
alienated to make their own 

634
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:39,679
space. 
That's too much of A burden 

635
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,760
right now that they've got some 
decisions to to, you know, and, 

636
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,000
and, and it's hard that they 
already have enough on their 

637
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,679
plate if they're feeling 
squeezed out. 

638
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:52,560
So we need to do all we can to 
createspace for as many people 

639
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:54,760
as we can. 
That's what we're called to do. 

640
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,400
All right, finally, as I, as I 
move towards wrapping up 3rd 

641
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:05,240
category, people who feel tuned 
out, there's a lot of people who

642
00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:08,680
just feel kind of bored and 
maybe you're feeling that way 

643
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:10,320
right now. 
I apologize, OK? 

644
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,120
But there's a lot of people who 
are not sure that this church, 

645
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,080
that there's that much to it. 
They're not sure that there's 

646
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,720
much fire here. 
There's much going on here and 

647
00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:24,200
there's a lot of people who just
feel tuned out. 

648
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,920
They're not, they're, they're 
not spiritually on fire. 

649
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,560
They're, they're, they're not 
sure that this is a place where 

650
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,680
they can give or that their 
great greatest energies will be 

651
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,440
rewarded. 
Now, this is not new. 

652
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,920
This kind of feeling within 
religion, It's not unique to to 

653
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,240
our church. 
One of the great figures in 20th

654
00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:44,800
century American religion was a 
guy named Abraham Joshua 

655
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,480
Heschel. 
He was a Jewish rabbi, one of 

656
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,800
the great leaders of 20th 
century Judaism, and he wrote a 

657
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,680
book in 1955 called God in 
Search of Man. 

658
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,640
And we normally think of the 
1950s as like the high point of 

659
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:58,800
religion in America. 
And in fact, during that decade,

660
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,760
more people attended church than
any other decade in American 

661
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,680
history. 
OK, so, so it was a high 

662
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,680
watermark in lots of ways. 
But even then, Rabbi Heschel 

663
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,080
looked around and he saw that 
not everything was right. 

664
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:17,200
And he wrote this book that 
opens with this passage, which 

665
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,920
is really strong stuff. 
It's powerful stuff. 

666
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,720
Rabbi Heschel says it is 
customary to blame secular 

667
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:27,120
science and anti religious 
philosophy for the eclipse of 

668
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,200
religion and modern society. 
In other words, we we we blame 

669
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,320
Darwin and Freud and Marx and 
and all those anti religious 

670
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:34,840
people for all the problems we 
have. 

671
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,800
OK, But Rabbi Heschel says it 
would be more honest to blame 

672
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:43,600
religion for its own defeats. 
Religion declined not because it

673
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,320
was refuted, not because Darwin 
came up with some argument that 

674
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,640
proved that religion was wrong. 
Religion declined not because it

675
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:55,320
was refuted, but because it 
became irrelevant, dull, 

676
00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:00,680
oppressive and insipid. 
When faith is completely 

677
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:05,040
replaced by creed, worship by 
discipline, love by habit. 

678
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,920
When the crisis of today is 
ignored because of the splendor 

679
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,600
of the past. 
When faith becomes an heirloom 

680
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:16,000
rather than a living fountain, 
when religion speaks only in the

681
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,840
name of authority rather than 
with the voice of compassion, 

682
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:28,160
its message becomes meaningless.
Those are strong words, but I 

683
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,200
think more than 1/2 century 
later, they still speak to us 

684
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,760
because I think there's too many
among us, too many in the 

685
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,880
broader Christian world. 
Those charts with Christians 

686
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,480
going to like this and 
unaffiliated going like this. 

687
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:48,040
There are too many people for 
whom their religion is 

688
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,120
irrelevant, dull, oppressive, 
and insipid. 

689
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,800
Well, I'm convinced, brothers 
and sisters, it doesn't have to 

690
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:55,280
be that way. 
I'm convinced that the 

691
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,320
Restoration does not have to be 
that way, that we can offer 

692
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,840
something better than that. 
And we do offer something better

693
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,400
than that to people. 
It is the task of every 

694
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,400
generation of the church to 
rediscover the gospel anew. 

695
00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:13,000
Every generation has to do it. 
We cannot. 

696
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,040
We talked about not just leaning
on on on other people's 

697
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,840
testimonies, but we can't rely 
on the past generations 

698
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,040
successes. 
The Pioneers church was for The 

699
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,040
Pioneers. 
Your grandparents church was for

700
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,920
your grandparents. 
Today we have been called to 

701
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,400
have this church. 
It, it is our church. 

702
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:33,240
It's not The Pioneers church 
anymore. 

703
00:38:33,240 --> 00:38:34,480
They, they fought the good 
fight. 

704
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,040
They're, they're, they've met 
their heavenly reward. 

705
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:42,040
It is our church and we have to 
rediscover it and breathe new 

706
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,360
life into it for a new 
generation, for today, for 

707
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:51,080
20/21. 
We cannot rely just on the same 

708
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,320
old, same old. 
This is what President Nelson is

709
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,600
teaching us. 
I he's, he's invigorating the 

710
00:38:55,600 --> 00:39:00,000
church as at what, 90? 
What is he 95 or whatever, 

711
00:39:00,240 --> 00:39:02,240
right? 
He is breathing new life into 

712
00:39:02,240 --> 00:39:04,880
the church and telling us that 
we can't just do the same things

713
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,760
the same way all the time. 
We have to breathe new life into

714
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,920
this thing is what it means to 
believe in an ongoing 

715
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,320
restoration. 
We also believe why? 

716
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,280
Why bother sticking with this 
church? 

717
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,280
Why bother coming to church? 
Why bother with any any of it? 

718
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,320
Well, I am convinced that the 
church is one of the great gifts

719
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,160
that God has given us to learn 
how to love. 

720
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:30,840
The two great laboratories that 
God has given us to learn how to

721
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,280
love are the family and the 
church. 

722
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,600
Why those two things? 
Because they're the two 

723
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,280
communities, especially in terms
of the latter day St. 

724
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,160
understanding of church. 
They're the two things with 

725
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:48,400
where you're surrounded by 
people that you didn't choose. 

726
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,720
You didn't choose which family 
you get to choose who you marry.

727
00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:56,440
So there's one thing. 
But after that, right, you don't

728
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,320
choose the family you're born 
into. 

729
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,840
You don't choose the kids who 
come into your family unless you

730
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:04,360
adopt. 
But even then, you can't choose 

731
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,800
what they do after that, right? 
You don't get to choose your 

732
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,240
family. 
You're just told to love. 

733
00:40:11,720 --> 00:40:14,320
Same thing in the church. 
The the, the most, I think one 

734
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,000
of the most beautiful things 
about the restored church is the

735
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,960
way we organize ourselves. 
We take a map, we draw a line 

736
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,240
and we say love everybody inside
that line. 

737
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,840
That's your job. 
So, yeah, the person next to you

738
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,160
has who has political signs that
drive you crazy, love that 

739
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,400
person. 
The person down the road whose 

740
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,040
kids drive too fast down the 
road, love that person, right? 

741
00:40:37,240 --> 00:40:39,720
The person who gets up and 
speaks in church and drives you 

742
00:40:39,720 --> 00:40:43,160
crazy, love that person. 
You don't get to choose which 

743
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,280
church you go to. 
You don't get to go to a liberal

744
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:49,200
church or a conservative church 
or a, you know, a fancy church 

745
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,720
or I mean, you don't get to 
choose any of that stuff. 

746
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,920
This is the church you go to 
figure it out. 

747
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,320
Learn to love people. 
It is a beautiful, it is the 

748
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,080
only way to make Christians. 
It's the only way to make 

749
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,680
Christians because it's easy to 
love the people you like. 

750
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,160
It's hard to love the people 
that you're stuck with. 

751
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,000
And that's exactly what the Lord
calls us to do. 

752
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,360
And then over time we realize, 
oh, maybe it's not so bad being 

753
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,600
stuck with them. 
Maybe actually they have 

754
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,480
something to teach me. 
And so the church is a 

755
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,640
laboratory of love and, and it 
is exciting when we think about 

756
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:31,160
it that way, when we think about
the challenge that's associated 

757
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,800
with being part of the church, 
it's anything but irrelevant and

758
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,880
oppressive and insipid. 
It's actually transformative. 

759
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,760
Last thing I want to say here 
is, is to think about our 

760
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,200
identity as Christians and what 
our mission is. 

761
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,200
And I want to go back to the 
original statement of 

762
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,600
Christianity. 
And what I mean by that is what 

763
00:41:55,600 --> 00:42:00,200
Jesus said the first time He got
up to publicly preach when He 

764
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,760
announced His public ministry as
the Messiah. 

765
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:08,560
Remember, he got up in the 
synagogue in Nazareth and he 

766
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:13,640
went up and he opened the scroll
to what we understand as Isaiah 

767
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,800
chapter 61, and he read these 
words. 

768
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,160
The Spirit of the Lord is upon 
me because He has anointed me to

769
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:26,320
preach the gospel to the poor. 
He has sent me to heal the 

770
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:30,280
broken hearted, to preach 
deliverance to the captives and 

771
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:34,640
recovering of sight to the 
blind, to set at liberty them 

772
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:39,320
that are bruised. 
We know this because we know 

773
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,960
what Jesus did over the next 
three years in terms of His 

774
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,200
ministry. 
This was His mission statement. 

775
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,960
This is exactly what He did. 
He fulfilled to a tee what He 

776
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,720
said when He got up in that 
synagogue in Nazareth. 

777
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:59,200
He was surrounded by people who 
were poor, not only poor in 

778
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:05,680
spirit, but actually poor, and 
his ministry was to them. 

779
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,560
He was surrounded by the broken 
hearted, not just people who had

780
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,160
broken hearts and contrast 
spirits and chose to follow Him,

781
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:17,720
but people who whose hearts had 
been broken because of life. 

782
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,160
The same is true of us today. 
Think about the people who are 

783
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,960
who surround you, whose hearts 
are broken because of global 

784
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:32,560
pandemics or divorces or deaths 
or financial setbacks or a 

785
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,520
million other things that break 
our hearts. 

786
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,640
Jesus came for them. 
Think about all those who are 

787
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:45,920
captive, not only spiritually in
bondage, but actually in bondage

788
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,160
in lots of different ways. 
We know that slavery still 

789
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,160
exists in some places in this 
world. 

790
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:55,320
We know people who are in 
bondage financially or captive 

791
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,520
to bad marriages or all kinds of
things. 

792
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:04,520
Jesus came for them. 
Think about those who are blind.

793
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:11,560
Yes, spiritually blind, but also
actually blind and deaf and 

794
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,080
disabled. 
Jesus ministered to them. 

795
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:22,440
And who among us isn't bruised 
just by going through this life 

796
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:28,480
in a million different ways? 
Jesus is the Messiah of the 

797
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,840
poor. 
He's the Messiah of the broken 

798
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,200
hearted. 
He's the Messiah of the captive.

799
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:38,800
He's the Messiah of the blind. 
He's the Messiah of the bruised,

800
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:45,240
and if we're followers of Jesus,
he asks us to do the same. 

801
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,840
His mission statement becomes 
our mission statement. 

802
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,720
This is what we're called to do.
He did it in a unique way that 

803
00:44:54,720 --> 00:44:58,040
none of us can replicate, of 
course, but He calls us to do it

804
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:03,920
right alongside him. 
I can't think of anything more 

805
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:10,080
exciting, more meaningful, more 
transformative, the opposite of 

806
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,280
irrelevant and oppressive and 
dull and insipid. 

807
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:18,040
I cannot think of anything more 
transformative than this. 

808
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:21,240
This is what I want to do with 
my life. 

809
00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:26,440
I want to minister to the poor, 
the broken heart of the captive,

810
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,440
the blind, the breeze. 
I'm not very good at it, but I'm

811
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,240
in a place that teaches me and 
gives me opportunities to get 

812
00:45:32,240 --> 00:45:34,680
better. 
That's what Jesus calls us to 

813
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:36,440
do. 
So for people who feel tuned 

814
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:42,440
out, maybe what we need to do is
actually do what Jesus asked us 

815
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,040
to do and invite them to do it 
alongside us. 

816
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,000
And I'm convinced, brothers and 
sisters, that we can do that. 

817
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,760
This is that the church is 
exactly the gift that he's given

818
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:55,200
us to do that. 
In the in Ephesians chapter 2, 

819
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,440
it talks about Christ's 
ministry, talks about what 

820
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,560
Christ was called to do. 
But now in Christ Jesus you were

821
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,080
who were once far off, have been
brought near by the blood of 

822
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,960
Christ, for He is our peace in 
his flesh. 

823
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,120
He has made both groups into one
and has broken down the dividing

824
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,640
wall that is the hostility 
between us. 

825
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:22,000
He came and proclaimed peace to 
you who are far off and peace to

826
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:27,360
those who are near. 
In the church today, in our 

827
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,600
families, in our communities, in
our wards, there are people who 

828
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:36,400
feel far off because they're 
switched off or they're squeezed

829
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,960
out or they're tuned out. 
There are people who are feeling

830
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:43,000
far off. 
Jesus proclaims peace to them. 

831
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:46,800
They're feeling pain, they're 
feeling betrayal, they're 

832
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,920
feeling alienation. 
Jesus proclaims peace. 

833
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,720
There are also people who are 
near, who are still in the 

834
00:46:53,720 --> 00:46:57,080
church, who are as active as 
ever, but whose hearts are also 

835
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:03,600
broken because the people they 
love are struggling and they're 

836
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:07,400
not sure what to do, and they're
confused and they're struggling,

837
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,400
and Jesus proclaims peace to 
them. 

838
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:15,160
Jesus isn't concerned so much 
with our categories of who's far

839
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:19,080
off and who's near, and he's 
certainly not interested in the 

840
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,960
walls that we sometimes build 
between us, except to break down

841
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,680
those walls. 
What Jesus cares about is 

842
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:33,280
calling each one of us to return
and a proclaiming peace to each 

843
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,880
one of us. 
We talk about being part of a 

844
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,800
restored church. 
Brothers and sisters, we're also

845
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:43,600
participants in a restoring 
church, a church that is still 

846
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:48,520
working to restore our Heavenly 
Father and Mother's children to 

847
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,080
wholeness. 
That's what we're called to do, 

848
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,760
whatever the issues are, whether
it be faith crisis or whether it

849
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,120
be a million other ways in which
people are broken and bruised in

850
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,520
this world. 
We are called to a ministry of 

851
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:05,720
healing and to a ministry of 
peace, just like Jesus is. 

852
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,960
And we can do this with 
confidence in our Savior. 

853
00:48:09,720 --> 00:48:12,760
And I say this in his holy name,
Jesus Christ, Amen. 

854
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:17,560
All right, well, I'm going to 
stop this chair. 

855
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:19,440
We've, we've got the screen 
share. 

856
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,880
We've we've got time for for a 
few questions and I'm going to 

857
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:28,040
try and moderate this myself, 
but I think you're looking at it

858
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:29,840
too. 
So let me know if, if, if I miss

859
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:35,320
anything. 
OK, All right. 

860
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:41,960
OK, so I've got the one in Q&A 
here and, and we'll just take a 

861
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,120
few minutes and, and people 
here, I know you're not on your 

862
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:46,760
phones, but you can ask 
questions too. 

863
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,480
So I mean, you're, that's, 
that's all right too. 

864
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,040
OK. 
So this question is given the 

865
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:55,240
recent media interest in people 
like David Koresh, Warren Jeffs,

866
00:48:55,240 --> 00:48:58,840
et cetera, how do we respond to 
those who see parallels in 

867
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,880
Joseph Smiths leadership? 
I think that that's, that's a 

868
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:06,720
great question. 
And you know, we in in our 

869
00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:10,600
church and in our community, we 
love and respect Joseph Smith as

870
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:12,720
the prophet of the restoration, 
right? 

871
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:17,720
We know all the things that God 
did through him to bring about 

872
00:49:17,720 --> 00:49:21,680
this church and to bring about 
this restored scriptures and 

873
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,480
priesthood and ordinances and 
covenants and all the things 

874
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:30,440
that we love, right? 
But it doesn't take very much as

875
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,640
a, as a student or of, of church
history to, to know that Joseph 

876
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,520
Smith was not perfect, never 
claimed to be perfect. 

877
00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:39,240
And actually one of the things I
like about the, the church's new

878
00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:43,680
series, the Saints, the multi 
volume history of the church is 

879
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,800
I think it's actually quite 
honest about many of Joseph 

880
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,680
Smith's foibles and flaws. 
And he had many. 

881
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:56,720
In Section 1 of the Doctrine and
Covenants, the Lord talked about

882
00:49:56,720 --> 00:50:00,360
how he called Joseph Smith to 
speak to this age and to restore

883
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:02,120
the gospel. 
But he said he called him not 

884
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,200
because Joseph Smith was 
anything special, but he said he

885
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:10,040
called him in his weakness. 
And so the Lord was as aware, 

886
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,360
more aware than anyone of Joseph
Smith's many flaws. 

887
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:16,280
But this is the remarkable 
thing. 

888
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,000
We're not members of the Church 
of Joseph Smith. 

889
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:25,240
We respect him. 
We love him just like we love 

890
00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:29,600
one another despite our flaws. 
Joseph Smith was not a perfect 

891
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,560
vessel. 
We don't have to claim that he 

892
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:36,400
was a perfect vessel. 
It does not diminish the 

893
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,920
restoration to be honest, about 
Joseph Smith's flaws. 

894
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:46,040
Now, as a historian and as a 
scholar of religion, I think we 

895
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:49,080
can weigh people's flaws. 
You know, I mean, it's 

896
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,120
everybody's scale and balance is
going to be a little bit 

897
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:54,080
different in terms of what 
really matters to them. 

898
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,360
I think on the whole, Joseph 
Smith comes out pretty well in 

899
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:00,920
in balance. 
But it's not my job to weigh 

900
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:06,040
Joseph Smith in the balance. 
He has an eternal judge who's 

901
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:10,480
going to do that. 
But what I do weigh in the 

902
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:12,960
balance are the things that came
through Joseph Smith. 

903
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:18,680
And I find those to be true and 
compelling. 

904
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:24,200
And so, so no, Joseph Smith is 
not Warren Jeffs. 

905
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:28,920
He's he's not some, he's not 
David Koresh, he's not a cult 

906
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:30,680
leader, but he's also not 
perfect. 

907
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:32,240
We don't have to claim that he 
was perfect. 

908
00:51:32,240 --> 00:51:35,720
In fact, when we claim that 
Joseph Smith is perfect, it 

909
00:51:35,720 --> 00:51:40,800
diminishes the work, the 
redemptive work of Jesus Christ,

910
00:51:42,720 --> 00:51:44,360
right? 
Think about the Bible, the, the,

911
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:47,040
the, the story of the Bible and 
the prophets in the Bible. 

912
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:50,880
The the Bible is littered with 
prophets who are deeply flawed. 

913
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:56,480
I mean, read the Old Testament, 
OK, These are, it's like, read 

914
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:57,760
the Testament, but the Old 
Testament. 

915
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,280
But don't let your kids read the
whole, the whole Old Testament. 

916
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,400
I mean, there's some scary stuff
in there, right? 

917
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:04,840
OK. 
And there's some bad characters 

918
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:06,440
in there, and some of them are 
prophets. 

919
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:12,600
But the whole story of the Old 
Testament is of God working 

920
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:17,240
through imperfect people, God 
redeeming his people despite 

921
00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:22,200
their imperfections. 
God doesn't abandoned his people

922
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,600
even when they turn their back 
on him. 

923
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:28,920
The same model is true of Joseph
Smith and any of our modern 

924
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:30,240
prophets. 
They are not perfect. 

925
00:52:30,240 --> 00:52:32,480
They don't claim to be perfect. 
We don't claim that they're 

926
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,800
perfect, but we do claim that 
Jesus is working through them. 

927
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:41,840
And so, so, so I think, yeah, 
we, we, we can take into account

928
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:44,240
and we can study and we can look
at Joseph Smith's character 

929
00:52:44,240 --> 00:52:46,600
again. 
On the whole, I find him to be 

930
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,080
an admirable character, but he's
not perfect. 

931
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,160
And we don't have to claim to, 
we are in the, we are members of

932
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,600
the Church of Jesus Christ, not 
the Church of Joseph Smith. 

933
00:52:55,240 --> 00:52:59,960
OK, OK, so I'm going to go to 
chat now to, to some of these. 

934
00:52:59,960 --> 00:53:04,440
And, and this is going to be a 
little bit random. 

935
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,160
I'm I'm going to go through and,
and see what I can. 

936
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:12,520
One person says that their faith
crisis started after reading the

937
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:16,560
Church of proof sources. 
And, and that's the gospel 

938
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:18,800
topics books and and, and 
Saints. 

939
00:53:19,240 --> 00:53:22,080
And, and I know that you're not 
alone. 

940
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:26,960
This is one of the things I, I, 
I'm Privy a little bit to, to 

941
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:29,760
some of the process that, that 
went behind those gospel topics 

942
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:34,080
essays into Saints. 
And this was one of the, this 

943
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:37,760
was one of the big conversations
that happened among the 

944
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:42,600
leadership of the church. 
They said, we want to be 

945
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,200
transparent. 
We want to be honest about our 

946
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:47,800
history. 
We, we feel like we've got 

947
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:49,640
nothing to hide. 
We're not going to run from the 

948
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:50,960
truth. 
We're not going to run from the 

949
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:53,280
facts. 
So we're not afraid of those 

950
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:54,680
things. 
I mean, the Joseph Smith Papers 

951
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,080
project, it's amazing. 
I mean, they're pouring tons of 

952
00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:59,560
resources in publishing 
literally every document that's 

953
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:02,400
ever that that Joseph Smith ever
wrote or, or ever touched. 

954
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:05,000
I mean, so talk about an effort 
in transparency, right? 

955
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:09,880
But they also knew that in doing
so and in putting these things 

956
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:13,120
on the church website, in 
talking about the imperfections 

957
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:15,760
and weaknesses and challenges in
these things and doing it in 

958
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:18,560
official church sources, that 
there were going to be some 

959
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:22,600
people whose testimonies were 
shaken by that, not by what they

960
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,840
found on some random Google 
site, but what they found on the

961
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,040
church website. 
And I know that there were some 

962
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:32,560
really tough and hard 
conversations about about this. 

963
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:37,360
And we do know that for some 
people, it's it's precisely 

964
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:39,560
those things that they 
encountered on approved church 

965
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:42,520
resources that that led to 
questions that they didn't have 

966
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:46,040
before. 
But the calculation was this, 

967
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:50,160
they said, we know that this is 
going to be tough and we know 

968
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:52,720
that there's going to there's, 
it's going to be difficult for 

969
00:54:52,720 --> 00:54:58,480
some people. 
But in the long term, it's going

970
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,560
to pay off when people are 
raised in the church, when 

971
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:04,720
somebody because a lot of these 
things are finding their way 

972
00:55:04,720 --> 00:55:07,400
into church curriculum, into 
seminary and institute and to 

973
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,920
other kinds of things. 
And so it's so especially for 

974
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:13,160
people who are raised in the 
church hearing about these kinds

975
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:16,440
of things, then when they go to 
college or when they go and 

976
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:19,560
encounter some of the stuff on 
Google, it's not going to be 

977
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:21,360
what, how come nobody ever told 
me this? 

978
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,560
It's instead, it's going to be, 
oh, I learned that in primary. 

979
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:28,720
So we are in that moment of 
transition. 

980
00:55:28,720 --> 00:55:31,720
We're, we're still, this is hard
for a lot of us who who were 

981
00:55:31,720 --> 00:55:34,560
raised sometimes with one 
narrative of church history. 

982
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:36,640
And now we're getting a 
different, a slightly different 

983
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:38,960
narrative of church history from
the church itself. 

984
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:41,320
There's this moment of 
transition, which isn't, which 

985
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:44,800
isn't easy for some people in 
the long run. 

986
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:49,240
The, the, the, the church has 
has made its bet with, with 

987
00:55:49,240 --> 00:55:52,360
being honest and forthright and,
and talking about all these 

988
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:54,760
things. 
And with the confidence that we 

989
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:58,640
can do so in a context of faith 
that again, the whole is greater

990
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:02,280
than the sum of the parts that 
this is the Church of Jesus 

991
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:06,960
Christ. 
So, so for, so for whoever is 

992
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:10,200
struggling, you know, if, if, if
you're, you know, if, if it is 

993
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:14,320
those resources that that have 
caused you just to, to struggle,

994
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:16,960
I'm, I'm sorry. 
And, and again, those, those are

995
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:20,440
things that, that the brethren 
were, were aware of and knew 

996
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:25,160
could be the case, but they 
obviously felt confident enough 

997
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:28,480
that they felt like that, that 
the, the, the church is still 

998
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:33,160
true, right. 
But, but we can, we can still 

999
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:44,800
talk about these things. 
Let me, I'm just scrolling 

1000
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,800
through the, I was seeing Q&A. 
Sorry, it's hard to do 2 things 

1001
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:51,280
at once here. 
If I have friends that now don't

1002
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:54,080
belong to any organized 
religion, how do we have 

1003
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:57,720
conversations with them? 
Do we tiptoe around religion or 

1004
00:56:57,720 --> 00:57:01,920
do we open up about how we feel?
I think this is a great question

1005
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,240
because, and this is going to be
more and more the case as more 

1006
00:57:04,240 --> 00:57:07,240
and more people aren't part of 
organized religion, right? 

1007
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:11,480
I think we're, we're honest 
about who we are. 

1008
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:14,240
I mean, being a member of the 
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter

1009
00:57:14,240 --> 00:57:18,720
Day Saints is, is a huge part of
who I am and for the people I 

1010
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:20,200
care about, for my friends and 
others. 

1011
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:24,080
I'm not going to hide that part 
of it any more than I'm going to

1012
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:27,760
hide that I'm a huge Notre Dame 
football fan right now. 

1013
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:30,120
In the long run, one of those 
things is more important than 

1014
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,120
the other. 
On any given Saturday afternoon,

1015
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,880
I'm not sure which is the most 
the most important, but but it's

1016
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:38,840
it's, it's who we are, right? 
And so why would we hide that 

1017
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:40,880
from them now? 
I think we have to sometimes get

1018
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:44,160
better at how we talk with 
people about religion. 

1019
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:46,800
A lot of people don't like 
religion. 

1020
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:48,800
A lot of people have left 
religion because they felt like 

1021
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:51,240
it's been shoved down their 
throats or they've been harmed 

1022
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:54,080
by it. 
And we have to be sensitive to 

1023
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:56,840
that. 
We don't want to be the cause 

1024
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:00,440
of, of any greater alienation. 
We don't want to be the cause of

1025
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:04,720
any more harm or people feeling 
further pushed away from 

1026
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:08,360
religion. 
We want to be the, the, the, the

1027
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:11,160
Catholic Saint Francis of 
Assisi, he said, preach the 

1028
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:15,000
Gospel at all times and if 
necessary, use words, right? 

1029
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:19,120
The, the, the quality of our 
example would be the greatest 

1030
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:21,840
testimony that we give to the, 
to the nature of our 

1031
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:25,000
Christianity. 
But we should use words too, 

1032
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:26,360
right? 
Especially among our friends. 

1033
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:28,560
We want to talk honestly about 
the things that are important to

1034
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,000
us, but we don't want to shove 
it down people's throats. 

1035
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:33,520
We, we want to have the 
conversations that they want to 

1036
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:35,960
have. 
And one of the things that we 

1037
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:40,360
need to do better as Latter Day 
Saints is listen to other 

1038
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:44,520
people's questions. 
We, we sometimes get caught in 

1039
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:49,440
kind of a game of Jeopardy where
we give, but you know, we, we're

1040
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:53,440
the only good answers are the 
ones where people are the only 

1041
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:55,320
good questions are the ones 
where the answers are already 

1042
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:59,000
given, you know, because we feel
like we have so many answers. 

1043
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,600
And so we want to force that on 
people as if, you know, we know 

1044
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:03,560
what their questions are. 
But a lot of times people aren't

1045
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:06,480
asking the questions that we 
think they are. 

1046
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,680
We've, we've, we've sort of 
constructed a set of questions 

1047
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:11,880
that we think people have, but 
they don't always have those 

1048
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:14,240
questions. 
We need to actually listen to 

1049
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:16,280
people. 
And this is not just 

1050
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:18,600
missionaries. 
Missionaries need to do this, 

1051
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:20,920
but we all need to do this. 
We need to what, what do people 

1052
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:23,360
care about? 
What are they concerned about? 

1053
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:25,560
What are they afraid of? 
What are they anxious about? 

1054
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:29,000
And are there things that the 
restoration can speak to? 

1055
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:34,480
And so we have, we have to, we 
have to speak their language 

1056
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:39,720
and, and again, in, in, in love,
but also in confidence, but 

1057
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:45,080
without arrogance. 
One question is, can you name 

1058
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:47,560
something specific that you 
think Joseph Smith did wrong? 

1059
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:50,280
Hearing they aren't perfect is 
not really addressing the issue 

1060
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:51,480
for me. 
No one is perfect. 

1061
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:54,440
Of course, that's right. 
So, OK, So what, what did Joseph

1062
00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:56,880
Smith do wrong? 
I mean, we can, we can talk 

1063
00:59:56,880 --> 01:00:03,640
about specific things. 
I think that he was he was not 

1064
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:07,320
always fully honest, especially 
in public, about the the 

1065
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:12,120
practice of polygamy. 
We know, and again, the the 

1066
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:15,720
Church's Gospel Topics essay is 
very open about this. 

1067
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:18,400
When it was when the the 
practice was introduced in 

1068
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:20,200
Nauvoo, it was practiced in 
secret. 

1069
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:23,920
It was practiced among a very 
small group of people that 

1070
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:28,760
slowly expanded, but that most 
members of the Church in Nauvoo 

1071
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:31,000
and certainly the members of the
Church in England and other 

1072
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:34,080
places outside of Nauvoo were, 
were not aware of what was going

1073
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:36,360
on. 
When Joseph Smith was challenged

1074
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:40,200
about some of these things, he 
gave statements that I think as 

1075
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:43,840
a, as a historian, I, I would 
say at best they're were 

1076
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:51,960
misleading and obfuse skating. 
And he was, he was in a, he was 

1077
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:57,160
in a, he was in a pickle. 
And he, and he was not always 

1078
01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:59,160
fully forthright. 
He wasn't always fully honest 

1079
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:01,120
about his practice, including to
his own wife. 

1080
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:05,560
And so, so as I look at that, I,
that's, that's one of the hard 

1081
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:08,520
things for me when I look at, 
at, at Joseph. 

1082
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:16,360
And so so yeah, we, we, we can 
talk about specific things and 

1083
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:20,800
Saints talks about that, right. 
So again, we don't need Joseph 

1084
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:27,120
Smith to be perfect. 
And so, so yes, sometimes it's 

1085
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:30,040
tough. 
OK, going through chat is a 

1086
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:32,800
little bit tough. 
Let me let me do one thing and 

1087
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:35,520
then I think we're about out of 
time. 

1088
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:37,360
Is there one? 
There's one at the end. 

1089
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:45,280
Of. 
The stream I would love to have.

1090
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:48,160
You which one? 
Address this one right here. 

1091
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:50,480
How do I trust again when that 
was broken? 

1092
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:54,600
OK, so the question is how do I 
trust again when when that trust

1093
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:57,560
was broken? 
That's that's $1,000,000 

1094
01:01:57,560 --> 01:01:58,720
question. 
I think that's a really good 

1095
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:02,880
place to end because it is like 
I said, it's, it's just like 

1096
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:06,640
relationships. 
It is it is really hard to 

1097
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:10,680
rebuild that trust. 
Couple of things that I would 

1098
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:14,760
say. 
So first of all, it is, it is 

1099
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:20,080
important to one of the constant
messages in the Book of Mormon 

1100
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:25,440
especially, but throughout 
scripture is to remember it's, 

1101
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:30,400
it is essential for us to 
remember the Lord's mercies in 

1102
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:35,640
our lives, to remember the 
times, remember the spiritual 

1103
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:39,520
witnesses that we've had, to 
remember the times when the 

1104
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:43,360
Spirit has touched us when 
reading the Book of Mormon or 

1105
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:46,040
when preaching the gospel or 
when sitting in church and 

1106
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:48,800
hearing the gospel, when 
listening to General Conference,

1107
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:50,680
when listening to the prophets 
and apostles. 

1108
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:53,680
It's really important to 
remember that and hold on to 

1109
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:57,280
those things. 
It's also really important, I 

1110
01:02:57,280 --> 01:02:59,600
think to hold on to 
relationships. 

1111
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:01,760
And so here I'm not just talking
about the relationship with the 

1112
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:05,240
church, but relationships with 
people inside the church, with 

1113
01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:09,440
our family members and others. 
That's, that's one of the key 

1114
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:14,920
things is that the, that even in
these, these relationships where

1115
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:18,920
that have been predicated in so 
many ways upon the church and 

1116
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:20,680
membership. 
And this is especially true in 

1117
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:25,520
marriages, right, where two 
people get married and, and, and

1118
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:28,200
they get sealed in the temple 
and the understanding is they're

1119
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:29,720
going to be faithful members of 
the church. 

1120
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:33,600
And, and then if, if one changes
their mind, that can be really 

1121
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:38,160
difficult, But there are ways, 
you know, to hold on to that 

1122
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:42,040
relationship even while one 
person is struggling with their 

1123
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:45,400
relationship to the church. 
So holding on to people and 

1124
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:48,480
holding on to, to the love and 
the relationships we have. 

1125
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:52,560
I, I had a friend tell me once 
who had left the church. 

1126
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:56,400
He said, you know, I, I could 
win the Nobel Prize and my mom 

1127
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:58,960
would still be disappointed in 
me because I don't go to church 

1128
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:02,160
on Sunday. 
All right now, on the one level,

1129
01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:04,320
I get that. 
I understand that, you know, 

1130
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:07,080
the, the kind of no empty seats 
at the table in the celestial 

1131
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:11,640
Kingdom and so forth. 
But here's the thing, our 

1132
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:16,680
Heavenly Mother and Heavenly 
Father care and love for us in 

1133
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:20,760
ways that go so far beyond what 
we understand, right? 

1134
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:25,960
So whatever feelings of loss or 
hurt or, or, you know, other 

1135
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:29,520
things we're feeling, we can 
trust that we have heavenly 

1136
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:33,240
parents who are reaching after 
reach, reaching out after each 

1137
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:36,280
one of their children. 
So that's, so that's, that's 

1138
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:38,480
for, you know, for, for the 
people who are, who are 

1139
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:40,400
struggling. 
But, but still the, the, the 

1140
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:43,320
question is about the people 
whose trust has been broken in 

1141
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:44,800
the church. 
How do we rebuild that? 

1142
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:49,600
I think it's done bit by bit, 
little by little. 

1143
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:55,000
It's finding a foothold wherever
we can, right? 

1144
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:58,600
It may not all come at once. 
It, it may come by having to to 

1145
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:01,120
separate some things. 
And it has to come also through 

1146
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:03,600
through reworking some of our 
ideas. 

1147
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:06,080
What about what that 
relationship may be? 

1148
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:09,240
It's, it's probably going to 
look a little bit differently on

1149
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:12,760
the other side than it did 
before somebody went through a 

1150
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:16,000
faith crisis. 
And that's OK, right? 

1151
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:19,280
It is OK for our religion to 
grow up with us. 

1152
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:23,920
It is OK for our religion to 
survive some bumps and bruises 

1153
01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:27,080
and some scrapes along the way. 
That's called growing up. 

1154
01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:30,320
We, we do this in every other 
area of our life, right? 

1155
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:34,480
No marriage is perfect, but but 
it survives, right? 

1156
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:38,480
And, and we, and we learn to 
forgive and then we're generous 

1157
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:44,560
and, and, and we, we accept the 
other person, even with all of 

1158
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:47,200
their, their flaws. 
Now, it means that sometimes we 

1159
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:49,520
have to reconsider what that 
means, right? 

1160
01:05:49,520 --> 01:05:52,280
That the, the, that the person 
isn't as perfect as we thought 

1161
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:54,640
they were on the day we got 
married, right? 

1162
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:57,840
But we learn and grow. 
And so rebuilding trust in the 

1163
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:03,200
church can look a lot the same 
way is that that we learn that 

1164
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:06,040
we're not in relationship with a
perfect thing, a perfect 

1165
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:10,320
institution, a perfect but, but 
we are in relationship as part 

1166
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:14,600
of a community that is striving 
to follow Christ and striving to

1167
01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:16,800
come to Christ. 
And so finding footholds 

1168
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:19,600
wherever we can. 
So if, if, if you're struggling 

1169
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:22,320
with the church, but love the 
Book of Mormon, dive into the 

1170
01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:24,640
Book of Mormon. 
If you're struggling with the 

1171
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:27,480
Book of Mormon, but love the 
church, come and keep coming to 

1172
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:31,400
church, right? 
Find whatever foothold you can 

1173
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:36,200
and build upon that. 
The, the the Lord talked about 

1174
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:40,080
in section 93 and in other 
places that we, we go grace from

1175
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:42,880
grace. 
And a lot of times this is 

1176
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:46,160
exactly what it means to have a 
testimony as we go from grace to

1177
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:48,120
grace. 
We don't know all things. 

1178
01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:52,560
And often times in the church we
use this language of knowledge a

1179
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:55,520
lot, especially from a pulpit 
like this. 

1180
01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:59,880
I know, I know, I know. 
That's beautiful, it's powerful,

1181
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:02,520
it is rich. 
It is one of the great spiritual

1182
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:04,920
gifts that we've been given as 
Latter Day Saints, that we know 

1183
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:07,800
so many things and that so many 
of us feel like we've been given

1184
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:11,000
a witness of the Spirit in such 
a way that we can say, I know, 

1185
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:15,560
XY or Z. 
But we can't always say that all

1186
01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:17,520
the time. 
And not everybody among us can 

1187
01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:20,760
say that. 
And so it's OK. 

1188
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:25,800
Remember what in Alma Chapter 32
he talks about if you have even 

1189
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:29,840
a desire for these things, 
that's good. 

1190
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:32,200
If you have a desire to know 
these things. 

1191
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:35,560
So if somebody is asking the 
question, my trust is broken, 

1192
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:39,720
but how do I rebuild it? 
That is great because that shows

1193
01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:42,640
desire. 
That's what the Lord wants. 

1194
01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:48,720
And so if somebody can't say I 
know, but they can say I hope or

1195
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:55,760
I wish or I believe or I want or
I desire, that's pretty good 

1196
01:07:55,760 --> 01:07:58,360
stuff too. 
The Lord can take that. 

1197
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:03,440
The Lord is pleased with that, 
even with the smallest seed of 

1198
01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:06,400
desire. 
And so build on that. 

1199
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:10,000
Build on that build wherever you
can find a hand holder, a 

1200
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:11,520
foothold, whatever that looks 
like. 

1201
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:15,040
Keep the relationships you have,
Keep talking with people, read 

1202
01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:20,880
the scriptures, pray, hold on to
Jesus who will all will always 

1203
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:24,080
hold on to you. 
There's so much more to talk 

1204
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:25,120
about. 
I'm sorry we couldn't get to 

1205
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:27,880
everything, brothers and 
sisters, but let me just leave 

1206
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:30,720
with with my testimony. 
First of all, I'm I'm I'm 

1207
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:32,160
available. 
I live right here in Logan. 

1208
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:34,720
You can find me very easily if 
you want to e-mail me about any 

1209
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:37,920
specific questions about church 
history or just want to find 

1210
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:40,399
somebody friendly to talk to. 
The fact that you've got a stake

1211
01:08:40,399 --> 01:08:44,359
presidency who set this up shows
that you've got leaders who care

1212
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:46,920
and are happy to talk about 
these things and who are not 

1213
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:49,240
afraid of talking about hard 
things. 

1214
01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:50,960
This is what it means to 
minister to each other. 

1215
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:53,439
We're not, you know, we don't 
love it when people get cancer, 

1216
01:08:53,439 --> 01:08:55,399
but we're not afraid of it, 
right? 

1217
01:08:56,319 --> 01:09:00,520
We don't, you know, when people 
struggle with various things, we

1218
01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:02,160
mourn with them. 
We comfort with them. 

1219
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:04,120
This is what we do in the 
church. 

1220
01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:06,880
And so, so feel free to reach 
out. 

1221
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:09,359
Feel free to do whatever can be 
done. 

1222
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:12,439
But let me just leave with, with
my final testimony. 

1223
01:09:14,399 --> 01:09:19,160
I I'm 44 years old and which is 
not very old, but older than 

1224
01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:23,240
some like it's almost, it's like
almost perfectly middle-aged, 

1225
01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:25,080
right? 
I'm like so stereotypically 

1226
01:09:25,080 --> 01:09:27,680
middle-aged in so many ways. 
I've got the bald patch. 

1227
01:09:27,680 --> 01:09:30,680
I've got, you know, the the 
paunch, like so many things. 

1228
01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:36,040
So I've had some experiences. 
I haven't had others. 

1229
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:38,279
I'm still waiting for other. 
I'm still raising kids. 

1230
01:09:38,279 --> 01:09:40,040
I'm still in the thick of it. 
All these things, you know, in 

1231
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:42,720
the middle of mid career, all 
these kinds of things. 

1232
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:48,279
But I also feel like that over 
the past several years and the 

1233
01:09:48,279 --> 01:09:55,000
last couple decades that I've 
grown in my testimony, the more 

1234
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:59,120
that I have focused on Jesus 
Christ and it has become more 

1235
01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:03,040
and more meaningful to me to be 
a member of the Church of Jesus 

1236
01:10:03,040 --> 01:10:05,080
Christ. 
I am grateful that President 

1237
01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:10,680
Nelson has reminded us that this
is the Church of Jesus Christ of

1238
01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:15,040
Latter Day Saints. 
We are part of a restored and 

1239
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:17,560
restoring church. 
We are grateful for the 

1240
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:21,000
restoration of so many things. 
We're grateful for the 

1241
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:25,000
restoration of priesthood and of
covenants and of ordinances and 

1242
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:27,840
of doctrine and of all kinds of 
things. 

1243
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:36,200
But ultimately, I've become 
convinced that those things were

1244
01:10:36,200 --> 01:10:40,840
always just a means to an end, 
and that our Heavenly Father and

1245
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:44,160
Mother, what they want more than
anything else in the world, is 

1246
01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:49,360
the restoration of their family.
They want to bring us all back. 

1247
01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:52,880
They've given us the church to 
help do this. 

1248
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:54,680
They've given us families to 
help do this. 

1249
01:10:54,680 --> 01:10:58,560
But they've mostly called us to 
do this in whatever way we can. 

1250
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:03,680
There's nothing I want more in 
this life in my middle age than 

1251
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:08,120
to simply be a Christian, to be 
the follower of Jesus. 

1252
01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:12,200
And the Spirit has witnessed to 
me and a million experiences of 

1253
01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:16,880
witness to me that this church 
is an extraordinary place to 

1254
01:11:16,880 --> 01:11:19,000
become a Christian. 
There are other good places to 

1255
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:20,760
do it, too. 
I got lots of good friends and 

1256
01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:23,360
lots of other churches who are 
amazing Christians who put me to

1257
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:26,600
shame. 
But this is a church where God 

1258
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:29,440
has called me and has placed me 
to learn how to love. 

1259
01:11:30,360 --> 01:11:33,960
And I'm grateful for that. 
I am grateful to have prophets 

1260
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:37,280
and apostles and scriptures and 
bishops and Relief Society 

1261
01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:40,160
presidents and all kinds of 
things around me to teach me how

1262
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:42,040
to love and to help me learn how
to love. 

1263
01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:44,960
Because that's all I want to do.
That's all. 

1264
01:11:44,960 --> 01:11:46,840
I'm not very good at it, but I 
want to. 

1265
01:11:47,480 --> 01:11:50,600
And I think the church, I know 
the church can help us do that. 

1266
01:11:51,120 --> 01:11:54,160
And so for me, it's worth 
holding on to with everything 

1267
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:58,040
I've got, even as we love every 
single one of our Heavenly 

1268
01:11:58,040 --> 01:12:00,480
Father and Mother's children who
are struggling because that's 

1269
01:12:00,480 --> 01:12:03,200
what we're called to do. 
I witnessed that Jesus is the 

1270
01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:06,520
Christ, that he is our peace. 
And I say that in the name of 

1271
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:19,580
Jesus Christ, Amen. 
We appreciate Brother Mason very

1272
01:12:19,580 --> 01:12:25,960
much for being with us tonight. 
We had, I don't know, an excess 

1273
01:12:25,960 --> 01:12:29,920
of 20 questions come in. 
We apologize when we're not able

1274
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:33,120
to get to those, but that would 
add a probably another hour to 

1275
01:12:33,120 --> 01:12:35,680
the, the fireside beyond what we
have allotted. 

1276
01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:39,840
We we have recorded it and we'll
likely have this up on our 

1277
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:44,480
Facebook page, Cash W Steak 
Facebook page later on if you 

1278
01:12:44,480 --> 01:12:49,560
missed something. 
So we thank Patrick Mason very 

1279
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:52,480
much. 
Thank you for attending tonight 

1280
01:12:52,480 --> 01:12:52,920
as well.