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Hello everyone, and welcome to 
another edition of Mormon 

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Stories podcast. 
We're getting the band back 

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together with one substitution. 
It's March 9th, 2025 and we are 

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here to talk about the new Lori 
Valo interview on Dateline with 

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Keith Morrison. 
The interview was called The 

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Disturbing Case of Lori Valo. 
And joining us on this Sunday 

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morning is the band sans Mindy. 
So we've got Lauren Mathias. 

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Hey, Lauren. 
Hey. 

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Lauren, of course you are 
joining us from Hidden True 

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Crime YouTube channel and 
podcast. 

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How you feeling this Sunday 
morning? 

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Hanging in there, how are you? 
Good. 

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Thanks for joining us on Last 
Minute Notice. 

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Absolutely. 
We also have Megan Connor, 

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cousin of Lori Valo from Third 
verse slash Midlife Revolution. 

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Hey, Megan. 
Hey, how's it going Did? 

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You did you have a, what's it 
called, a daylight savings 

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nightmare this morning? 
I did. 

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I had an A nightmare early this 
morning that I woke up too late 

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to get ready for the episode and
then I woke up and it was an 

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hour later and and the dream 
came true. 

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Well, glad you could join us. 
And and Mindy, you've changed. 

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That was a joke, Herardo. 
No, Mindy, we always joke. 

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We're getting the band back 
together. 

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Do we have official band name 
yet? 

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I don't know. 
So many nominations. 

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There were some good ones. 
There were some good ones. 

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Yeah. 
Keep them coming. 

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I like them so much. 
I don't want to pick one because

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I just want to keep reading all 
the suggestions. 

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They're so, so clever all. 
Right, viewers and listeners, if

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you want to name the band, we're
still taking votes, but Mindy is

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is on a family vacation. 
But but we're, you know, we are 

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never disappointed to have 
Gerardo Samano with us. 

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Gerardo, you're in the true 
crime and you're in the legal 

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stuff and you've been following 
this case from the beginning. 

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Is that right? 
Yeah, that's right. 

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I was actually, I, I've said 
this before, but I was actually 

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in Rexburg, living in Rexburg 
when, when all of these events 

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were happening. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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So it's going to be fun. 
So thanks for joining us. 

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Yeah. 
All right. 

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So, yeah, this this interview 
dropped for me. 

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It was Sunday night. 
Was it 7:00 PM Utah time? 

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Is that right? 
Yes, I believe that. 

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And it's. 
Friday night, yeah. 

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Friday night. 
What did I say last night? 

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Friday night. 
You said Sunday. 

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OK Dang my brain. 
So Friday night 2 hour interview

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dropped. 
I was super excited to hear you 

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know what it was going to be 
about Megan, since you since you

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are literally Lori Vallow's 
cousin, you grew up with her, 

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you knew her. 
Why don't why don't we have you 

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start by just telling us your 
reactions sort of when you heard

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that this is going to happen and
what you were hoping for and 

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anything you want to say leading
up to actually watching it that 

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all right. 
Sure, yeah. 

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And before I do that, we would 
like to ask everybody to please 

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like this episode. 
Please subscribe to this 

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channel. 
And while you're at it, please 

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subscribe to hidden True Crime 
YouTube channel and Midlife 

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Revolution or Third verse 
YouTube channel as well. 

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It turns out that comments and 
likes really help us grow our 

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channels. 
So please do that everyone. 

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And and with that, and of 
course, if you want to provide 

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those of you who are joining us 
on the live stream, we're always

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grateful for our monthly donors.
There are bread and butter. 

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So thank you monthly donors for 
your donations. 

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If you're on the live chat and 
you want to make sure we see and

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read your comment or question, 
super chats are the best way to 

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do that. 
OK, over to you, Megan. 

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OK. 
So yeah, I was, I was actually 

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at Thrive in Saint George when I
found out that this interview 

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was going to happen. 
I believe that it was Saturday 

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morning of last week and I was 
actually with Maven Krusha. 

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Kay Easton, who is Kay and Larry
Woodcock's daughter, sent me a 

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text and it was a post from her 
channel that she she was posting

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about the interview happening. 
And I think I had a little bit 

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of a frustrated outburst. 
I'm always frustrated and angry 

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and upset when Lori is grabbing 
more attention and more 

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spotlight. 
So I think my initial reaction 

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was really, you know, why 
Dateline, why do we have to give

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her more of a platform? 
You know, but very quickly, of 

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course, I understand, you know, 
Dateline probably has wanted to 

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interview her for a long time. 
I know she's wanted to go on 

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Dateline for a long time. 
And, you know, they are taking 

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advantage of an opportunity just
ahead of her trial, which I 

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think is, you know, of course 
it's an advantageous time for 

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them to do it. 
So I understand. 

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I was grateful in retrospect for
the way it was treated. 

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We can talk about that later. 
But just initially, my reaction 

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was anger and frustration, 
followed by understanding for 

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Dateline and also at least a 
hope that we would get a little 

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bit of a glimpse into where 
Lori's head is at now, which I 

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think we did. 
And, you know, then just sort of

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formulating over time what I 
thought she might talk about. 

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And I think it became pretty 
obvious to me, as it probably 

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did to most everyone, that she 
wanted to put out this 

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narrative. 
The same one that she told Colby

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on the phone call that Colby 
recorded with her, where she 

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blames everything on Ty Lee. 
And I think she commented on 

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this in the interview that she 
doesn't really know exactly 

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what's being said about her and 
what's really out there in the 

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press and the media. 
So she probably doesn't know 

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that everybody has heard that 
phone call, or at least everyone

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following the case has heard 
Colby's thoughts on it, has 

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heard my thoughts on it, has 
heard crushes, thoughts on it, 

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has heard hidden true crimes 
thoughts on it. 

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You know, we've all kind of 
already commented on that 

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narrative. 
So didn't expect there to be a 

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whole lot of new information all
there was a little bit. 

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So yeah, those were just my my 
initial thoughts. 

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I was grateful to be able to 
listen to the interview with my 

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channel members, with my little 
community that I've grown over 

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there at third verse and to have
just supportive people around me

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to, to help me get through that 
'cause otherwise it would have 

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been pretty difficult. 
So I was grateful for that. 

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Yeah, absolutely. 
Well, thanks. 

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You know, we always have to 
check ourselves because there is

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such a fascination with this. 
It is such an interesting story.

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It's a national story. 
And but, but we're talking about

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real people. 
We're talking about the death of

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two children. 
We're talking about so many 

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family members impacted by this.
And Megan, you're closer to, 

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you're closer to all of that 
than than any of us here for 

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sure. 
So that's why we're so grateful 

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to have you on. 
But thank you. 

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Yeah, thank you. 
It's, it's always, it's always 

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tough, you know, being pretty 
much the only family member 

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speaking publicly with the lens 
of having left Mormonism. 

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So I think seeing the family and
being out of the family too kind

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of distance from everyone, 
seeing the family for what it 

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is, seeing the religion for what
it is and, and speaking openly 

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about it. 
It's a lonely place sometimes, 

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and it certainly is not 
something I ever thought I was 

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going to have to deal with, but 
I'm trying to make the best of 

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it by talking about how we can 
have healthier families and 

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healthier religions and 
healthier relationships. 

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Yeah, well, thank you. 
Julie wants me to mention that 

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this is the two thousandth 
Mormon Stories podcast episode. 

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So it's kind of a fun 
anniversary of sorts. 

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So Lauren and and Megan and 
Gerardo, I couldn't think of of 

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three people that that I'd 
rather have on for our two 

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thousandth episode. 
I am honored. 

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That is a really, really big 
deal. 

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So congratulations to Mormon 
Stories. 

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And yeah, I I am flattered. 
Yeah. 

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And again, thanks to everyone 
joining us. 

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So Lauren, that you, you were 
saying before we started today 

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that that this is probably, 
you'll probably know more about 

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this case than any case you ever
cover. 

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Before we dive into actually our
reactions to this episode, do 

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you want to share your thoughts 
and feelings once you found out 

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this was going to happen and 
watched the trailers and 

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everything? 
I'd love to hear your insights. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
I was privileged to learn that 

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this was happening quite a while
ago, months ago. 

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Oh yeah. 
You were interviewed. 

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You were interviewed for it. 
Well, I was interviewed. 

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I also was in. 
I was talking to the producer. 

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I knew the very day it was 
happening. 

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I knew the moment it was 
happening. 

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I knew before Keith went in and 
I knew after and I actually knew

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the sound bite about Dancing 
with the Stars. 

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We got the inside info from 
Shane Bishop. 

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He is the producer of All of the
Day Bell Datelines. 

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So he was keeping us posted. 
And you know, it's a fast. 

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It was a fascinating sort of 
behind the scenes process that 

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we learned what's going on. 
And then and then, yes, they 

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came out and they actually 
interviewed us for a different 

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episode. 
But while we were with Keith, he

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asked us questions because I can
genuinely say that Keith, Keith 

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had a lot of questions after 
interviewing Lori. 

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I think the reactions we saw 
with Keith Morrison there were 

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real. 
They were unscripted. 

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Like he was very frustrated in 
that interview and it was a 

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difficult interview. 
I I can only imagine. 

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I think he did. 
A great job. 

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So, you know, I was definitely 
really interested in seeing what

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I've been hearing about for 
months. 

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And I was surprised. 
I thought I went in not knowing,

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you know, I just thought, OK, I 
know some of these sound bites. 

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I know some of the things she 
said. 

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We've seen her crazy sentencing 
speech. 

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We've seen now her interview 
with her son Colby that he did 

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on his Star Wars podcast. 
But I was still really taken 

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aback. 
My, my, I was very surprised at 

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the amount of anger I saw from 
her. 

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And I know that sounds so funny 
'cause you're like, I'm sure 

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some people are looking at me 
going like, what did you expect?

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But I did not expect, John, you 
use the word contempt. 

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I did not expect that. 
Just contempt and just absolute 

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anger. 
Just, you know, coming from her 

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so strongly. 
I don't think we've, I haven't 

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seen that before. 
I've seen manipulation. 

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I've seen a mad woman. 
I've seen some crazy beliefs. 

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I've seen denial. 
I've seen a personality 

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disorder. 
This was new to me, this 

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contempt, this anger. 
Just Keith. 

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Keith. 
What do you think? 

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Keith? 
Why do you want to know? 

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Keith, just. 
She kept repeating his name over

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and over again in a very 
contemptuous way. 

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Megan, you're smiling. 
Why are you smiling? 

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Just because that tactic. 
With Lori, right? 

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I did, yeah, for a short. 
Time. 

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Have you seen that side of her 
or was that a new side of her 

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none of us have seen? 
Well, I mean, the manipulative 

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side, obviously, yes, I've seen 
that. 

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I think that the contemptuous 
side, yes, absolutely. 

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The difference is that this was 
very much more in your face than

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I think I've ever seen her. 
When she was younger, she kept 

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these things much more covert, 
much more under the surface, but

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they were always there. 
And the thing that I'm smiling 

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about is that tactic of 
constantly using Keith's name. 

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You know she had a way of trying
to make you feel special and put

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you down at the same time. 
Wow, that's powerful. 

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All right, Lauren, I didn't mean
to steal the mic. 

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I just, I was curious if Megan 
had seen that just in her 

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personal interactions. 
But keep. 

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No, I I was listening to Megan 
for the very same reason I want 

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to know. 
And I thought that was really 

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interesting what Megan just said
about praising someone. 

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And I'm putting them down at the
same time with the Keith. 

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Keith, Keith. 
Yeah, yeah, that's that's an 

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interesting way to to say it. 
I also think that, I mean, 

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clearly she chose Keith Morrison
to do this interview, right? 

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I mean, we haven't heard from 
Lori for five years on ATV 

229
00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:32,080
interview. 
I should say we've heard from 

230
00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,920
her, but not in a, in a, you 
know, national television 

231
00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,680
interview. 
She clearly hand picked chose 

232
00:12:38,680 --> 00:12:43,240
Keith, right. 
You know, I think there's part 

233
00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,160
of that too. 
She knows that she knew who 

234
00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,080
Keith was. 
She knows that Keith is famous. 

235
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,720
I think she loved being in front
of someone who. 

236
00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,000
Yeah, the fame and then just 
talking to him, you know. 

237
00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:55,400
Yeah. 
That's so patronizing. 

238
00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:56,120
Right. 
Keith. 

239
00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:56,840
Keith. 
Hey. 

240
00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:57,840
Keith. 
Keith. 

241
00:12:58,120 --> 00:12:58,920
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

242
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,280
So that's interesting. 
Keith Keith referred to the 

243
00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:08,160
ethics of, of interviewing her. 
I think, you know, can you talk 

244
00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,840
to us about the, the 
journalistic, you know, you are 

245
00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:15,160
a, a journalist, Lauren, can you
tell us about some of the ethics

246
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,600
that Keith was, was mentioning 
and he's struggling with when 

247
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,720
deciding whether or not to give 
her a platform? 

248
00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:25,800
You know, on the one hand, she's
a murderer, likely, you know, 

249
00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,400
convicted murderer. 
She's clearly trying to 

250
00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,520
manipulate. 
And so on the one hand, you 

251
00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,200
could say it's a, it's unethical
to give her a platform. 

252
00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,360
But on the other hand, I, I 
think I heard him say people 

253
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,280
want to know. 
Do you want to talk us through 

254
00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,560
how a journalist might balance 
the ethics of even doing an 

255
00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:45,760
interview like this? 
Absolutely, yeah. 

256
00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,960
I think it's fair for a lot of 
people to be upset watching this

257
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:54,280
interview, giving a woman who is
convicted of murdering her own 

258
00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,160
children, you know, and Tammy 
Dabell a platform. 

259
00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:58,800
I actually completely understand
that. 

260
00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,680
And I cannot imagine being 
someone like Megan that's like 

261
00:14:01,680 --> 00:14:05,080
personally connected to this 
story or many of the other 

262
00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,920
surviving victims that you know,
I know and become close to. 

263
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,760
Like, I'm sure it would feel 
really bad too. 

264
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:16,000
I don't want to discount that 
when I just go into my 

265
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:21,400
journalist brain. 
I, I am of the belief that there

266
00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,160
is something to learn from 
everyone. 

267
00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:28,400
I mean, hidden true crime and 
why we cover crime is and the 

268
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,640
criminals behind the crime and 
we delve into their pasts and we

269
00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,320
delve into their histories and a
lot that actually rubs people 

270
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:36,480
the wrong way. 
Sometimes they're like, how 

271
00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:38,880
could you do that? 
And I'm like, you can't, you 

272
00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:44,000
can't cover crime without 
understanding the criminal. 

273
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,360
And, and you don't really make a
difference if we just some 

274
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,760
people up as they're evil. 
We don't want to hear from them,

275
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,880
you know, just banish them away 
and let's move on with our 

276
00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:54,560
lives. 
We're not really learning what 

277
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,360
happened or what's going on 
inside of their brains and their

278
00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,800
minds and what could have 
possibly created this crime. 

279
00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:07,880
And so I think it's really, 
really important to interview 

280
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:09,760
everyone. 
And, and we've also gotten the 

281
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,840
same criticism on hidden true 
crime. 

282
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,840
I want to say like, you know, 
for example, I've, I've 

283
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:21,040
interviewed many people without 
pushing back on them that maybe 

284
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,880
held Chad Dabell's beliefs or 
the prepping beliefs. 

285
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,040
I'll, I'll say this, Braxton 
Southwick, that Megan, that's 

286
00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,440
your cousin, also Lori Vallow's 
cousin. 

287
00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,360
I got a lot of pushback on the 
interview because I just 

288
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,560
listened to him and he talked 
about a worldview that maybe 

289
00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,840
offended some people or 
frightened some people, or maybe

290
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,760
what that felt was similar to 
Lori Vallow's. 

291
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,480
And I just let him talk and I 
listened. 

292
00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:54,880
And I think that it is really 
important to actually learn and 

293
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:56,520
and see things. 
A lot of people are like, can't 

294
00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:57,920
you see? 
That was so upsetting. 

295
00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,040
He was doing this and this and 
this and I want to say exactly 

296
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,760
so. 
So you so you caught something 

297
00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,480
then and you learned something 
from this interview without me 

298
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,800
having to push back. 
You, you came out with your 

299
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,920
thoughts and your opinions on 
this as you just listened that 

300
00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:19,640
you don't necessarily need 
someone to, you know, fight back

301
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,840
with the person or to point out 
or get the aha moments or 

302
00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,240
whatever. 
Just I think though, that it is 

303
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,600
so important to listen. 
And I know the Mormon Stories 

304
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,080
does that too. 
You listen to everyone. 

305
00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,800
And I, you know, Ron Meldrum, 
you guys interviewed him and he 

306
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,800
actually is, he knew Chad de 
Bell and he, he sort of kind of 

307
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:41,480
goes into this crowd. 
And I remember, I think you got 

308
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,440
a lot of pushback for that too, 
John. 

309
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,640
And I remember thanking you for 
the interview because I am a big

310
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,120
believer that there is something
to learn from everyone if we're 

311
00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:51,840
just willing to listen, good or 
bad. 

312
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:57,040
And I think Lori Valo is no 
exception, especially because 

313
00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:01,720
her crimes are unfathomable. 
And so I think we should be 

314
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,200
paying attention, trying to 
figure out what the hell went 

315
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:09,520
wrong. 
Love it Perardo, let me give you

316
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,920
a chance to give your thoughts 
leading up to actually watching 

317
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,200
the interview if there's 
anything you wanted to add. 

318
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,000
Yeah, well, I think I echo 
everyone's feelings. 

319
00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,440
You know, I have great respect 
for Keith Morrison. 

320
00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,079
I think he overall did a great 
job given the, you know, the 

321
00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:31,280
circumstances, given how 
frustrating it can be to deal 

322
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,840
with a person like Lori with a, 
you know, some clear 

323
00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:42,000
narcissistic tendencies. 
I, I, I, I think I, I parse a 

324
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:48,040
little bit from, from the rest 
of the panel maybe in, in this 

325
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,080
that I do believe that the 
interview could have gone a lot 

326
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,880
different and maybe better have 
a better response from Lori. 

327
00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,120
If someone with a deep 
understanding of Mormonism and 

328
00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:01,320
cold mind control would have 
done the interview. 

329
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,520
I have been thinking, you know, 
in ways that I would have 

330
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,680
approached it. 
And I have some ideas that I can

331
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:10,880
talk about throughout the 
interview and we can discuss and

332
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,520
speculate how Lori might have 
responded differently. 

333
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,800
But that that is one thing I did
want to mention. 

334
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:22,400
I think about that every every 
true crime, or I mean, except 

335
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,440
hidden true crime, of course. 
But like when, when national 

336
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:31,560
reporters don't have an in depth
knowledge of Mormonism on so 

337
00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,720
many of these cases, whether 
it's Tim Ballard, whether it's 

338
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,280
Ruby, Frankie and Jodi 
Hildebrand or this case or so 

339
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,760
many others, there's so much I 
think that gets missed. 

340
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:45,160
So we'll dig into that for sure.
Yeah, let me just share a couple

341
00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,120
comments. 
So unexcited, says virtual hug 

342
00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:51,840
of support for Megan. 
But there's a little love for 

343
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,920
Megan. 
You, you, you called it hate 

344
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:55,880
watching. 
Is that right? 

345
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:57,120
Megan? 
Did I hear you right? 

346
00:18:58,240 --> 00:18:59,400
I did. 
I did. 

347
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,280
And I, I definitely got some 
pushback even from my partner. 

348
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,680
He was like, I don't think I've 
ever heard that word before. 

349
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,560
I was like, yes, and I hate to 
watch it, but I'm going to watch

350
00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:14,600
it. 
Yeah, a more let me see a more 

351
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:19,680
of a lessee describe the 
interview as a microcosm of her 

352
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,800
tactics. 
What do you guys think? 

353
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:29,160
Did did did the interview show 
us the real Lori Valo, Maybe 

354
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,360
even in a way we hadn't fully 
seen before? 

355
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,040
Yes, absolutely. 
You want to go first. 

356
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:39,200
No, I think absolutely. 
And I think that Keith showed us

357
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:40,880
that. 
So, so well done, Keith 

358
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,640
Morrison. 
I think again, it goes to that 

359
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,720
contempt that I saw that anger. 
Like I said, we've all heard her

360
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:48,960
say crazy things. 
We've all seen her manipulate. 

361
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,320
We've all seen her act in 
despicable ways. 

362
00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:58,360
But I have never seen an anger 
that I think is murderous. 

363
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,960
In other words, that's full of 
hate, right? 

364
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:05,000
And Colby said that too in the 
episode. 

365
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,520
What she, his own mother did to 
my sister Tylie was hate. 

366
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:14,280
And we, we saw, I saw. 
How she could just hate? 

367
00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:17,400
There was not, there was not a 
loving mother in this interview.

368
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,200
Kind of this weird almost I I 
would there's a Mormon passive 

369
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,960
aggressiveness that I'm familiar
with. 

370
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,720
It may not be uniquely Mormon, 
but it was hate with like this 

371
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,200
twisted dark smile. 
She was always smiling with 

372
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,360
everything hateful. 
You never saw like rage in her 

373
00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:39,080
face. 
It was always this like plastic 

374
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,800
sticky sweet smile when she was 
pulling the knife out. 

375
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:47,600
I, I do think it's important to 
consider one point and the point

376
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,680
of the circumstances. 
I think this is a we what we saw

377
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:56,720
is a lorry or someone who is 
responding questions that are 

378
00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:02,000
coming from a person, you know, 
from a person who's who, who 

379
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,720
she's seeing as antagonistic to 
her religious beliefs. 

380
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,000
Lori, someone who is has deeply 
rooted religious beliefs and 

381
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,840
she's being confronted by an 
unbeliever and she knows that 

382
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,400
she's never going to be able to 
convince Keith or his followers 

383
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,680
about her, her religious 
beliefs. 

384
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,080
So and so she sees him as kind 
of lesser. 

385
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,400
And it reminds me, I mean, even 
though like it, it, it, it could

386
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,400
be like a big stretch. 
Obviously Mormon missionaries 

387
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:36,240
are not always this way. 
I, I did see a little bit of or 

388
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,880
or could relate to when I was a 
Mormon missionary and I 

389
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,120
interacted with people who were 
clearly antagonistic to 

390
00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:45,320
Mormonism. 
And you know, some of, of the 

391
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,000
response of being kind of snarky
and snappy. 

392
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,320
Even even if you read, you go 
back and read how Joseph Smith 

393
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:56,240
sometimes interacted with people
who were antagonistic to to 

394
00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,320
Mormon Mormon's beliefs. 
It it was it's kind of somewhat 

395
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,800
similar responses. 
Yeah, yeah. 

396
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,640
So I mean, from her perspective,
it's fair to say she was seeing 

397
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:12,880
Keith as antagonistic. 
He's basically, I mean, I saw it

398
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,280
as him just sharing the evidence
of what, because he was careful 

399
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,160
in the interview. 
Whenever he would make an 

400
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,800
allegation to her or just relate
the evidence, he would show the 

401
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,360
receipts, right? 
But then she would say, well, I 

402
00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:29,320
can tell you've been 
manipulated, Keith. 

403
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,600
I can tell you're just sharing 
the party line. 

404
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,160
Keith Were you there, Keith 
Where was it? 

405
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:35,600
Keith? 
How do you know? 

406
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:40,280
Keith And then and then he would
show the little video clips, 

407
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:44,280
right? 
And I think he substantiated his

408
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,000
questions with evidence. 
What? 

409
00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:51,560
What did you think, Megan? 
Yeah, I I think that we did see 

410
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,560
the real lorry here. 
I think we saw, but as you said,

411
00:22:55,560 --> 00:23:00,080
initially, this was a lesson in 
manipulation tactics. 

412
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,680
We saw her employing all of 
these different tactics 

413
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,800
throughout the interview, 
throughout the clips that we saw

414
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,360
of her and everything is masked 
with a smile. 

415
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:13,560
And, and that really is the 
ultimate manipulation because we

416
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,760
as empathic people, we tend to 
mirror the people that we're 

417
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,280
talking to because it's a way of
bonding and relating with them. 

418
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,120
And when a manipulator smiles at
you, it's because they want that

419
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:27,240
bond. 
They want you to smile too. 

420
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,800
So even though they're saying 
something disturbing or 

421
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,120
problematic or demeaning, 
they're going to still smile at 

422
00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:36,000
you because they want you to 
believe that they're actually 

423
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,240
being nice when they're not. 
And Laurie sort of has this, 

424
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,160
people have commented on this 
sort of half smile, the little 

425
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,920
smirk that she does. 
She's always done that. 

426
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,560
I think it's more pronounced now
that she maybe has had some what

427
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:54,040
we call filler migration. 
But yeah, that little side, that

428
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,720
side smile that she does is sort
of like 1/2 smirk where she kind

429
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,840
of knows better than you. 
She's smarter than you. 

430
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:05,520
She's always done that. 
Let let me ask about that. 

431
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,640
One of the things that I think 
Mindy behind the scenes and I 

432
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:14,680
both noticed there seems 
something off maybe audibly and 

433
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:19,040
potentially I'm not sure 
visually, just in terms of we, 

434
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,080
well, we weren't sure and we 
don't, we don't think it's 

435
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,240
appropriate pretty much ever to 
comment on people's appearance 

436
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,680
from sort of the standpoint of 
just being tacky or critical. 

437
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:31,320
So I just want to be clear about
that. 

438
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,360
But I think Mindy and I wondered
whether she had had a stroke 

439
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:40,880
because we almost heard some 
slurring a different voice sound

440
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,040
than we were used to. 
But then it also I, I don't know

441
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,840
if it looked there seems 
something visually different and

442
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:50,800
none of us could really put a 
pinpoint on it. 

443
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:55,600
So I'm not asking from like an 
aging standpoint or like even a 

444
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,360
beauty standpoint. 
Did any of y'all wonder whether 

445
00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:04,040
there was something off with her
health that was being manifested

446
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,520
either in her appearance or her 
her voice? 

447
00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:14,240
I, I thought of a few things 
and, and I, and I, I understand 

448
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,120
what you're saying. 
There was like a side speak. 

449
00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:18,520
And so you're not bringing up 
the ageism, but I will because 

450
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,280
it's fair game, because she 
also, I just want to point out, 

451
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,520
Lori claimed that she is an 
exalted being who had stopped 

452
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:27,880
aging. 
So fair game to say she's 

453
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,160
certainly aging. 
So I'll, I'll say that you're 

454
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,280
wrong, Lori. 
You're not exalted. 

455
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,640
You're aging like the rest of 
us. 

456
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,200
A few thoughts. 
I did a members only live about 

457
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,840
it and there was some 
interesting comments from people

458
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,360
because I did bring up sort of 
like the side speaking dysplasia

459
00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:47,760
was one of them that can be 
caused. 

460
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,360
It's a side effect of 
antipsychotic medications. 

461
00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:55,120
I actually thought that was a 
really intriguing possibility. 

462
00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:58,920
I know that Colby, her own son, 
brought up that it's just a lack

463
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,240
of Botox behind bars, but I 
don't know if that would do it. 

464
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,720
Someone else said nerve damage 
from possible previous Botox 

465
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,600
other people brought or I had an
idea of possibly, you know, when

466
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,400
we age, teeth can move. 
It could simply be just some 

467
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,640
stronger muscles on one side or 
a jaw that's not even. 

468
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:23,400
But I think I was most intrigued
by this idea of, because I have 

469
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:29,200
seen that before, the sort of 
side effect of of antipsychotic 

470
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,640
medications or other 
medications, which doesn't mean 

471
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,840
that she's psychotic either. 
There are many reasons to take 

472
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,040
that medication. 
But it was certainly interesting

473
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,800
to see and I don't think we have
seen that another video. 

474
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:47,680
So I do agree that she looked 
different beyond her natural 

475
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,800
ageing process behind bars. 
Megan Herhardt, Anything I want 

476
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,320
to add? 
Yeah, I mean, a lot of people 

477
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,480
have have commented or suggested
that it might be Bell's Palsy, 

478
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,280
which if I understand correctly,
is a temporary condition, you 

479
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,880
know, drooping of the face and 
things like that. 

480
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,920
I think the the thing that stood
out to me is that in in her 

481
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:14,560
recent hearings where she asked 
the judge if she could represent

482
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,480
herself, the judge granted her 
that. 

483
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,160
But he did put her through a 
series of questions. 

484
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,080
And one of the questions that he
asked as if she was taking any 

485
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,400
medication if she said no. 
Now, of course, we know Lori 

486
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,120
lies about things, but I think 
she's been pretty 

487
00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:32,240
straightforward with this judge 
so far, mainly just because she 

488
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:36,280
wants to get him on her side. 
So I don't discount that she 

489
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,800
could be taking antipsychotics 
or other medications that be 

490
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,040
caught could be causing side 
effects like this. 

491
00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:44,280
You know, we can, we can 
speculate. 

492
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:49,440
It could be, you know, Botox, 
nerve damage, Bell's palsy. 

493
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,880
I don't think necessarily she's 
had a stroke, but it's possible,

494
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,200
right? 
We just, these are things that 

495
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,520
we're not going to get a 
definitive answer on. 

496
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,760
But I think the most likely 
scenario is either she is on 

497
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,960
some kind of medication that is 
causing a little bit of a slur 

498
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,480
in her speech or, you know, 
she's just aging. 

499
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:13,560
And I will say too, though, part
of her tactic when she talks is 

500
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:19,440
that sometimes she will not be 
as concise with her speech. 

501
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,480
I noticed this in the body Cam 
footage when they when they 

502
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:27,320
visited her apartment looking 
for JJ and also in her phone 

503
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,160
call with Colby when she was 
talking about, you know, Ty Lee 

504
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,000
hates Melanie Gibb. 
Everybody knows this. 

505
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,000
She hates Melanie Gibb. 
She does that sort of thing, 

506
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,760
talking under her breath and 
slurring her words together a 

507
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:43,280
little bit as part of the way of
manipulating people to not 

508
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,920
really pay close attention to 
some of the things she's saying.

509
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,280
We've got a this is great. 
We've got a comment from a 

510
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,760
medical aesthetician. 
Alexandra Lovin writes. 

511
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,360
I don't think it's filler 
migration, for what it's worth, 

512
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,600
but I think not getting Botox or
filler for six years, this is 

513
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,880
just what she looks like without
upkeep. 

514
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,600
Thanks, Alexandra Lovin for that
feedback. 

515
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,600
I want to thank those who are 
supporting us. 

516
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,080
Thanks. 
Dive urgent. 

517
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,480
Chantelle Buchla, sorry if I 
didn't pronounce that right. 

518
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,880
She says been listening to all 
these Laurie, Chad and Ruby 

519
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,560
podcast recently. 
You are also wonderful and 

520
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,240
informative. 
Love listening and sharing your 

521
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,160
channel. 
Thank you Chantelle, thanks for 

522
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:34,400
the feedback. 
Also clarity says just a little 

523
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,080
thank you because your work and 
all of your perspectives are so 

524
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,800
important. 
Thank you as well to 

525
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,920
Troublemaker Baker for your 
support and destiny. 

526
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,120
And then finally, couple more 
comments. 

527
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:53,560
Beth writes, I think Lori is 
laying groundwork to blame Ty 

528
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:58,480
Lee for Charles's death. 
Alex isn't here to contradict 

529
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,720
her and she has no shame. 
So let's go. 

530
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,600
Thank you Beth Cote for that. 
Let's just go ahead and hit that

531
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:10,360
right on. 
I I had not watched Colby's 

532
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,600
YouTube stuff until Megan you 
linked to it right before. 

533
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,880
But I was certainly shocked. 
And this, this was probably one 

534
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,960
of the two big reveals for those
who don't follow this closely, 

535
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:28,720
was that she literally seemed to
be implicating to Keith that Ty 

536
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,400
Lee tell me if I've got this 
right, y'all, that Ty Lee was 

537
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:38,480
assigned to put JJ to bed, that 
she must have like put a pillow 

538
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,960
on his head, according to Lori, 
or mouth, you know, hand over 

539
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:48,160
his mouth to keep him behaving 
or quiet, which then would have 

540
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,600
killed him. 
And again, these are horrible 

541
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,560
accusations unless they're true 
and real. 

542
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,960
That Tylie killed JJ while 
putting him to bed and then was 

543
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:04,800
so distraught at having killed 
him that she took her own life. 

544
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:13,600
Shocking, horrific allegations. 
Obviously it's, it seems like 

545
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,920
her only possible defense to the
evidence that's out there. 

546
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,280
Maybe Megan will have you 
respond, then Lauren, then 

547
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,440
Gerardo. 
What did y'all think of these 

548
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:30,640
accusations? 
Yeah, so, I mean, obviously this

549
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:36,160
is super disturbing to have Lori
try to blame everything on her 

550
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,920
own daughter who she who she 
participated in the killing of. 

551
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,160
The first time that I heard that
on the phone call on Colby's 

552
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,760
channel, of course, I was really
upset by that. 

553
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:53,400
It it made me so angry. 
And at the end of the day, I 

554
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,200
mean, this is Lori. 
She's never going to take 

555
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,120
responsible for, take 
responsibility for anything that

556
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,120
she does. 
She's going to try to blame, you

557
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:01,480
know, anyone else that she 
can't. 

558
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,320
I think this is the narrative 
that she's come up with that she

559
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,480
feels like she can stick with, 
that absolves her conscious of 

560
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,480
having conscience, of actually 
having to think about what she 

561
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,280
really has done. 
And I think she believes that 

562
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:20,280
it's plausible enough that it 
might get her, you know, it 

563
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,960
might keep her from getting 
convicted or blamed for 

564
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:24,600
everything. 
It's it's super disturbing. 

565
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,880
It's hard for me to even really 
think about how how she could 

566
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,280
get there in her mind. 
It's obviously crazy. 

567
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,360
But yes, that that's her 
narrative that she says that Ty 

568
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,720
Lee went to put JJ to bed. 
Maybe she held him down too hard

569
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,400
trying to keep him quiet. 
And that Lori came in and found 

570
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,840
both of them already passed 
away. 

571
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,280
And then she left and allowed 
someone else to take care of 

572
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,600
them after that. 
So obviously, the evidence 

573
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:57,840
clearly goes completely, 100% 
against all of this because JJ 

574
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,240
was obviously alive after Ty, 
after the last time that Tyler 

575
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,000
was seen. 
So there's no way that, I mean, 

576
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,520
this can be easily disproven. 
But I think in Lori's mind, she 

577
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,680
just really believes that she's 
going to get away with all of 

578
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,240
this. 
She really believes that she's 

579
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:15,480
not going to be held 
accountable. 

580
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:20,120
She really believes that she did
nothing wrong and she just wants

581
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,560
to insert that plausible 
deniability of what happened to 

582
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,480
their bodies by just saying I 
wasn't there, someone else took 

583
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:31,000
care of it. 
Lauren, what what are your 

584
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,680
additional thoughts if you want 
to tell people anything else we 

585
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,120
should know about the evidence 
for why just the evidence alone 

586
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,480
would contradict Laurie's 
account. 

587
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,520
But also want to just hear the 
thoughts on how horrific it 

588
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:48,080
would be for a mom to who who 
potentially committed a murder 

589
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,320
to blame that murder on her dead
daughter, you know? 

590
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,480
Yeah, it's it's despicable and 
evil on all sorts of levels. 

591
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,920
Yeah, the evidence absolutely 
contradicts this. 

592
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:07,360
First off, Ty Lee was killed 
first weeks before JJ, so 

593
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,880
already complete contradiction. 
So you see, do we know that? 

594
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:12,840
Do we know that? 
We know that. 

595
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,000
We absolutely know that that is 
factual. 

596
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:17,960
That is evidence. 
Kylie was last seen in 

597
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,920
Yellowstone National Park. 
It was the last photo and then 

598
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,679
she disappears. 
But we see from satellite 

599
00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:30,159
footage of that evening, a, 
there is no burn pit in Chad 

600
00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:32,280
Dabel's yard. 
And then the next morning there 

601
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,560
is a burn pit that was shown in 
trial. 

602
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,800
We know that she was burned in 
Chad Dabel's yard that evening 

603
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,320
that she went missing in 
Yellowstone National Park. 

604
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:46,199
We know. 
We know a lot that is, that is 

605
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:47,520
facts. 
Those are facts that were shown 

606
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,080
in both Chad Davis trial and 
Laurie's trial and in FOIA 

607
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,840
documents too. 
So already we know that Ty Lee 

608
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,360
was murdered weeks before JJ. 
Yeah, I think there's several 

609
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:02,400
pieces of evidence that can date
the burial of of Ty Lee weeks 

610
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,520
before. 
So it like you mentioned the 

611
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:09,040
satellite image, there's also 
the text messages about the 

612
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,600
raccoon and and all that, right,
that kind of. 

613
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:13,800
Exactly. 
Thank you. 

614
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,400
Thank you, Gerardo. 
The the raccoon text is an 

615
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,960
important one. 
Chad de Bell texts his wife 

616
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,920
Tammy, who's still alive at that
moment and says, well, I have 

617
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,560
had quite the morning. 
There was a raccoon that entered

618
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,760
the yard and I shot the raccoon 
and I buried the raccoon in the 

619
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,920
the in in the pet cemetery. 
And then he early writes, I got 

620
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:37,040
rid of all of the limbs before 
the storm comes in and I and I 

621
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:41,520
wanted to know that many 
absolutely believe that he was 

622
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,600
talking literally because that's
how Chad Dabel talks that and 

623
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,440
and Ty Lee was dismembered and 
he got rid of her limbs in the 

624
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,920
burn pit. 
So, so right, Gerardo. 

625
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:55,400
So much evidence pointing to we 
know for a fact that Ty. 

626
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:05,080
Lee was the Alex being like 
tracking his cell phone to the 

627
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,560
area where the where the burial 
happened. 

628
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,320
Also the date corresponds to all
of that. 

629
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,000
So so there are several pieces, 
right? 

630
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:13,600
Is that? 
Yeah, yeah. 

631
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,120
And and I, I just wanna throw 
out, I love having Gerardo as a 

632
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:17,400
band member. 
Exactly. 

633
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,360
Gerardo. 
Yes, yes. 

634
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,000
Wait, is he an? 
Official band member or is he an

635
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,600
alternate band member? 
Like it's a serious deal to add 

636
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,600
someone to the band so. 
And does Minnie get a vote like 

637
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,560
or or? 
Unofficial. 

638
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:35,840
Unofficial for now. 
OK. 

639
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,160
All right. 
We'll sustain him next week. 

640
00:36:39,720 --> 00:36:42,360
No, we're just teasing Laura. 
What do you think about a mom 

641
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,440
shamelessly blaming her daughter
for a murder that she committed?

642
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:51,640
Yeah, Well, so, so, so evidence 
points to factually, this is 

643
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,720
just preposterous. 
It's just wrong. 

644
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:59,280
It's just false and wrong. 
I also want to point out 

645
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,920
something that I know that not 
everyone understands, but this 

646
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,360
alibi of Laurie, let's call it 
an alibi, that is what it is, 

647
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,520
has not changed. 
And not everyone knows that back

648
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,960
right before her trial in 2023, 
she she wrote out her alibi with

649
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:15,960
her attorneys help her defense 
team. 

650
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:18,600
And it was very discreet. 
And people didn't really 

651
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,280
understand or like, look at the 
fine print because you you know,

652
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,560
it's sort of that less is more 
like they didn't tell the whole 

653
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,920
story. 
Because I think her defense knew

654
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,520
better than to go with this 
alibi of Lori's, that Ty Lee, 

655
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,880
her own daughter, the victim of 
a horrendous crime, was 

656
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:41,360
responsible. 
But she rode in this alibi, and 

657
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,480
I was trying to pull it up. 
I have it here. 

658
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:50,600
But she stated that she walked 
into Alex Cox's apartment or 

659
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:56,760
townhouse in Rexburg and found 
both JJ and Tylie deceased, and 

660
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,560
that Melanie Gibb and David 
Warwick were in town at that 

661
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,680
time attending the firm Expo, 
Rod Meldrum's event. 

662
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,680
And they were recording a 
fireside. 

663
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:11,040
And this just sort of happened. 
Then once she came out with more

664
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,280
specific details after her 
trial, after her conviction, 

665
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,720
after her sentencing on on her 
son Colby's channel doing an 

666
00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:23,240
interview specifically stating 
no Ty Lee killed JJ and then Ty 

667
00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:25,920
Lee killed herself, that we 
hadn't heard. 

668
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,760
So I did reach out to her 
defense team and asked them. 

669
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:34,560
I said, has this always been her
story or has this changed and 

670
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:39,160
developed? 
And the answer from from my 

671
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:45,080
defense source was no, this is 
what she has always stated and 

672
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:49,920
always said something her 
defense made sure didn't come 

673
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:55,040
out in court. 
So, so we know that her story 

674
00:38:55,040 --> 00:39:01,520
hasn't changed and it's, it's 
absolutely shocking, appalling, 

675
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,120
disgusting. 
I mean, I'm literally, I'm doing

676
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,720
this with my hand, probably 
making a noise with the thing. 

677
00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:09,600
And I'm doing it ironically on 
this book, The Sociopath Next 

678
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,360
Door. 
I mean, please, yeah, please. 

679
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:17,000
Well, I want to, I just, it's 
just, I mean, it's so beyond 

680
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,880
human comprehension that there's
only one way to explain it in my

681
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,520
mind, and that's through 
understanding sociopaths and 

682
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,000
psychopaths where they will 
literally blame anyone, 

683
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,120
including the victim. 
And, and then I just want to say

684
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:33,720
this about Tylie too. 
What came out in trial about 

685
00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:38,480
Tylie's death is so horrendous. 
I, I won't get into the details 

686
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:40,440
here. 
I, I can't even, sometimes I 

687
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,920
feel physically ill. 
But Tylie's death was, was not, 

688
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,560
was really, really, really bad. 
It was disgusting. 

689
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,640
It was horrendous. 
What happened to Tylie? 

690
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,080
I believe that she was a victim 
of torture during her death. 

691
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,920
I'll just say that I I think she
was tortured by at least two 

692
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,840
people. 
It was really bad. 

693
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:12,720
And so to then imply that she 
did this is so despicable. 

694
00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:16,920
Like it's, it's so bad. 
And I and I just, I feel so 

695
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:22,560
sorry for Colby and the other 
victims who have to then. 

696
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,920
Here, Colby, let's talk about 
Colby, who has to then hear his 

697
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,400
mother. 
He is mourning his entire 

698
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,280
family. 
His entire family is just gone. 

699
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,440
And then to blame his innocent 
little sister after everything 

700
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,920
she went through is I can't 
it's, it's so horrible. 

701
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,200
No, at the at the end of the 
interview, he was I, I think I 

702
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:49,320
remember him sobbing and it was 
like he was trying to entertain 

703
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:54,760
whether or not it was true. 
And then he concludes, I can't 

704
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:59,880
believe that, but he was really 
trying to even process it and 

705
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:03,480
consider it, but then trying to 
think that a sister could do 

706
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,560
that. 
I would I Did either of you see 

707
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:11,080
Colby's response and do you want
to share what that was? 

708
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,280
I wish we could have him on at 
some point. 

709
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:18,040
Maybe. 
Megan, did you see his response?

710
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:22,520
I. 
Did Yeah, I, I, I watched his, 

711
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,680
his interview with Lori, his 
recorded phone call with Lori on

712
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,520
his channel. 
And it was heartbreaking. 

713
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,400
It was heartbreaking to watch 
him have to go through that. 

714
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:41,320
I could definitely see the anger
in his face when Lori started 

715
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,480
describing that version of 
events and him recounting that 

716
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,480
to her, just confirming that 
this is what she was saying. 

717
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,240
And then after the phone call, 
you know, hangs up and, and 

718
00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:55,840
Colby comes on and he and he's 
crying, you know, he's 

719
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,560
devastated. 
He was, this was sort of his 

720
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:04,480
last chance to connect with his 
mom and to see if the real Lori 

721
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,320
was still in there somewhere. 
And she's not. 

722
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,840
And I was, I was in awe of him 
being able to keep his composure

723
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,760
while he was actually on the 
phone with her because I was 

724
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:18,320
infuriated. 
I was enraged. 

725
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,480
I can't imagine how he must have
felt. 

726
00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:23,160
He must have felt that, you 
know, times 10. 

727
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,520
But for him to be able to keep 
his composure and get done what 

728
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:32,040
he set out to do, which was to 
see exactly her explanation. 

729
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:36,920
He wanted to hear it from her 
exactly what she was the 

730
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,120
narrative that she was putting 
out there of what happened to 

731
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,400
the kids. 
And he got that done. 

732
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,680
And then he was able to tell 
her, no, you can't be in my 

733
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,680
life. 
No, you can't be in my kids 

734
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:52,160
lives after this, your 
explanation, your, your 0 

735
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:57,120
remorse. 
No, you can't have any contact 

736
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,680
with me after this. 
And then just to see him, you 

737
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,000
know, breaking down, I don't, I 
don't think he believes it for a

738
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,120
second that that's what Ty Lee 
did. 

739
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:07,640
And he even said that on the 
phone call. 

740
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,080
There's no way that Ty Lee did 
this. 

741
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,920
He he said that on the sorry, on
the interview after talking 

742
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,440
about the phone call. 
There's no way that Ty Lee did 

743
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:17,840
this. 
And I think that the emotional 

744
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,440
reaction, the tears that we're 
seeing from him is a settling 

745
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:26,120
in, like the finality of that 
relationship coming to an end 

746
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,840
and the the acceptance that he's
never going to have a mom. 

747
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,920
Yeah. 
Did did any of you see Colby's 

748
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:36,760
reaction to the Dateline 
episode? 

749
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:41,600
I started to watch it last 
night. 

750
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,120
I just got to the part but but 
not much. 

751
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:49,600
I got to the part where he was 
mocking the 31 lives that Chad 

752
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,160
and his mother had had and then 
said, oh, who were you? 

753
00:43:54,240 --> 00:43:56,920
Who's the Family Guy? 
The Griffith Griffin? 

754
00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,640
Peter Griffin. 
Peter Griffin, he said. 

755
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:01,560
Oh, what were you, Peter 
Griffin, in the past life? 

756
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:07,000
And then we had to go to dinner.
But but that alone, I was proud 

757
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,400
of of that response. 
You know, if you don't laugh, 

758
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,600
you cry sometimes. 
So I don't know his. 

759
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,440
I have not watched it. 
He it's about an hour on his 

760
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,400
channel, the Star Wars Podcast 
for Colby Ryan. 

761
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:22,640
It's on YouTube. 
So I jumped on, saw him at least

762
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:27,280
have a bit of a sense of humor 
mocking both his mother and Chad

763
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:28,560
Daybell. 
That made me happy. 

764
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:29,880
And I did not see the rest of 
it. 

765
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,040
But yeah, so. 
So Colby just sort of implied 

766
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,520
that Chad was probably Peter 
Griffin in another life. 

767
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,600
So. 
Tiger Lily says Colby is going 

768
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,960
to cut up clips to respond to 
and do a better reaction show. 

769
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,040
OK, so that may be forthcoming. 
Go ahead, Erarda. 

770
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:51,120
I have a question for everyone. 
Something that I thought was 

771
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:56,920
really interesting was it was 
clear that she's still deeply in

772
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:02,000
love with Chad. 
She sees him as Lori. 

773
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:08,480
Yeah, Lori is. 
And I wanted to ask if we know 

774
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:15,720
whether Lori is aware that Chad 
basically threw her under the 

775
00:45:15,720 --> 00:45:20,280
bus during his defense at his 
criminal trial? 

776
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:29,000
Yes, people have, I have my 
sources and, and I've seen some 

777
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:33,280
things people have tried to tell
her while she's been behind bars

778
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:37,720
and her response, I've, I've 
seen her responses. 

779
00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:43,840
Her response has been that 
people don't understand court. 

780
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:48,920
It's a lot of he says she said. 
A lot of, you know, the legalese

781
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:52,400
and, and the legal procedures, 
people don't really understand. 

782
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:58,280
It's not what you think and she 
in denial. 

783
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,240
What? 
She's in denial, basically. 

784
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:02,600
Well, I think everything's in 
denial. 

785
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,800
I think she really does believe 
that they are together. 

786
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,960
I mean, he didn't even wear a, a
wedding ring during the trial 

787
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,600
where she does. 
I mean, it might be a makeshift 

788
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:13,920
wedding ring, you know, with 
elastic hair ties. 

789
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,320
But she makes sure to show that 
she is married. 

790
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,720
She wants to be called Lori 
Daybell. 

791
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:23,160
He is distancing himself from 
her. 

792
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:28,120
But when people have tried to 
say that, you know, she is, he 

793
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,040
is throwing her under the bus, 
she thinks it's the attorneys. 

794
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,600
She thinks it's all just sort of
procedure. 

795
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,920
You brought up denial. 
I think her entire world view is

796
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,640
denial, and I think she really 
believes it. 

797
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:42,520
And we're going to get into 
that. 

798
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:44,680
We talk about how she's lying 
and she's making things up and 

799
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:49,320
she's blaming Ty Lee and she has
these beliefs that are just 

800
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,160
insane. 
I think she believes it all, and

801
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,080
I think she believes it all 
because of denial. 

802
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,400
Like, she can't. 
I mean, she's been diagnosed 

803
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,680
with delusional disorder. 
And I think that comes from this

804
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,080
sort of denial. 
You become delusional when you 

805
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:05,200
refuse to see reality. 
And so she she is not listening 

806
00:47:05,240 --> 00:47:08,440
to people and she is the one 
that knows everything. 

807
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,040
She is all knowing, all 
understanding. 

808
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,080
All of us are just, you know, 
peasants and poppers who just 

809
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,680
don't get it. 
So she pretty much schools 

810
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,840
people who bring up to her that 
chat is throwing her under the 

811
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,000
bus. 
We don't understand. 

812
00:47:22,240 --> 00:47:25,440
She understands, and I'm sure 
we'll understand more when she's

813
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:29,560
on Dancing With the Stars. 
Well, that was that was dark. 

814
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:33,680
OK, so, yeah, let's jump to 
that. 

815
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,840
So I'll just say some of the 
things that were disturbing for 

816
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,920
me. 
She's claiming that she gets 

817
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:44,280
visits from Jesus. 
That, that Jesus, you know, 

818
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:50,360
well, well, she claims that 
during I guess Ty Lee's birth 

819
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:57,440
that she died in childbirth. 
Kind of this, you know, Co 

820
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,600
opting the near death experience
sort of situation that she was 

821
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:06,840
caught up to talk to Jesus. 
That she found out that Ty Lee 

822
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:10,400
was going to have lots of 
medical complications before Ty 

823
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:17,040
Lee was even born and that she 
was able to visit with Ty Lee as

824
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,760
a spirit child. 
It's almost like this dark 

825
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:23,400
Saturday's warrior. 
It's like a dark, murderous 

826
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:28,680
Saturday's warrior reframe where
she's talking to Ty Lee in the 

827
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,680
pre existence before she's born.
Ty Lee says I know I'm going to 

828
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:35,040
come to Earth. 
I know my life is going to be 

829
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,400
short. 
I mean, presumably I'm not. 

830
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,880
I'm going to die by suicide at 
16 after I murdered my brother. 

831
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:45,000
Like I wonder if Ty Lee saw that
in the pre existence. 

832
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,400
I don't know if Lori totally 
thought that through because on 

833
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,920
the one hand, why would Ty Lee 
agree to come to the earth 

834
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:56,240
knowing that she would die 
early, but then at the same time

835
00:48:56,240 --> 00:49:00,360
later when she actually dies 
it's by suicide after you have 

836
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,920
to murdered her or killed maybe 
unintentionally her brother. 

837
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:09,840
But anyway that that Ty Lee 
agreed to an early death before 

838
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:13,520
she even came to this earth 
again that Laurie and Jesus are 

839
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,840
besties. 
She joked that she was Jesus's 

840
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,600
favorite, that she wants to have
a bumper sticker that says Jesus

841
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:24,200
loves everyone but I'm his 
favorite or something like that.

842
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,280
But also that she's got a, you 
know, she's best friends with 

843
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:33,720
Tammy Dabell, the the murdered 
wife of of her lover. 

844
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:41,560
And, and also that that Jesus 
has shown her that she and Chad 

845
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:47,920
are going to be exonerated and 
that that they're going to be 

846
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,440
set free. 
So, you know, there's this 

847
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:55,880
question of does she really 
believe that Jesus is visiting 

848
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,080
her, that she's hanging out with
Tammy in the jail cell? 

849
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:03,280
Is the spirit that that she's 
seen visions of the future? 

850
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,520
Lauren, you, you said you wanted
to make sure and cover this. 

851
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:08,160
So I'm going to give you first 
go. 

852
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:12,000
But then Gerardo and Megan, I 
want to hear, does she really 

853
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:16,160
believe these spiritual 
visitations, Lauren? 

854
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,080
I think she absolutely believes 
them. 

855
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:29,960
I do think that it is caused by 
denial and her refusal to ever 

856
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,320
be wrong and she couldn't handle
the truth. 

857
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:37,320
It's defense mechanism. 
By explaining this, I'm not 

858
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:42,080
excusing her. 
It's despicable and, you know, 

859
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:46,800
psychotic. 
She, I think, really does 

860
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:49,400
believe it. 
And I just want to say how 

861
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,560
appalling it is to say to that. 
She is friends with Tammy 

862
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:56,760
Daybell. 
She is the mistress that had 

863
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:00,880
Tammy Daybell murdered. 
And to say that she is friends 

864
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:05,760
with her is so offensive, just 
so offensive. 

865
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:11,760
I can't even imagine, you know, 
how Tammy's family feels hearing

866
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:17,360
that. 
But I am in the camp of yes, 

867
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:21,840
Lori Valo believes everything 
she is spouting. 

868
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,320
Wow. 
I'm just starting right now. 

869
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:31,560
YouTube has the feature of 
polls, and so I just kicked off 

870
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:35,520
a YouTube poll to ask our 
audience whether they believe 

871
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,560
that Lori believes that these 
visions are real. 

872
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:43,680
So I'm going to ask you all on 
YouTube to go ahead and vote and

873
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,600
then we'll share your we'll 
share the reactions. 

874
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,040
And we also love to see your 
comments about that. 

875
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,520
Anytime you like an episode, 
subscribe to the channel or 

876
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:56,320
comment. 
It's going to help this get 

877
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,720
disseminated more widely. 
So Lawrence voting yes. 

878
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:05,480
Gerardo, you're a you're a 
Mormon stories, you know, heavy 

879
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:07,320
participant. 
What do you think? 

880
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,080
Do you think she really believes
it or she just making it all up?

881
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:14,160
Yeah, well, I, I think I agree 
with Lauren. 

882
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:17,400
I believe, I think she truly 
believes everything. 

883
00:52:18,720 --> 00:52:22,640
She, you know, I think, like I 
mean, said she could have been 

884
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:27,360
experiencing delusional disorder
where she, you know, becomes 

885
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:31,640
more entrenched in that believe 
that she that she lost touch 

886
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,880
with the reality. 
But the, the problem is that we,

887
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:39,280
we know that a lot of these 
beliefs are highly strategic, 

888
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:44,000
manipulative, and also they seem
to be pretty self aware. 

889
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:49,240
And I, I think that's just that 
there is not totally fully 

890
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:53,880
delusional that there's 
definitely, we can see that 

891
00:52:53,880 --> 00:53:00,520
there's a lack of remorse and 
extreme self importance and, and

892
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,040
she has an ability to lie 
without hesitation. 

893
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,960
I I think, you know, that that 
correlates a lot more with a 

894
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,560
narcissistic personality 
disorder. 

895
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:17,080
But but yeah, I mean, I think 
she she believes her lies and 

896
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,800
she believes that that you know 
her theology. 

897
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,120
I mean, and, and I want to get 
you in with this Megan too, but 

898
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:27,760
it is I'm thinking about my 
Mormon experience. 

899
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:33,360
Like I, I, you know, heard about
Morani's challenge that if you 

900
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,680
pray about the Book of Mormon, 
God will give you an answer. 

901
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:39,240
So I read the Book of Mormon and
I prayed about it and I didn't 

902
00:53:39,240 --> 00:53:41,760
get an answer. 
And I didn't lie to people that 

903
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,240
I got an answer. 
I just said, well, I didn't get 

904
00:53:44,240 --> 00:53:48,480
an answer. 
So what if she really does 

905
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:51,080
believe it? 
Then she would have had to have 

906
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:54,800
had those experiences where, I 
mean, unless you all believe 

907
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,160
that Jesus really did appear to 
her and that Tammy really does 

908
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:00,480
hang out with her. 
Let's just assume we all don't 

909
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:06,240
believe that Jesus and Tammy and
Laurie are all having a gabfest 

910
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,640
in her prison cell. 
So given that we don't think 

911
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:15,480
that's likely, then then what 
your theory, Lauren or Gerardo 

912
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:19,640
would be that she literally is 
having these dreams or visions 

913
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:23,600
that Jesus is appearing to her. 
Tammy's appearing to her that 

914
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:28,960
that she hung out with with Ty 
Lee as a near death experience. 

915
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,960
And then she really had those 
experiences and believes that 

916
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:36,040
she had those experiences. 
And that's hard to believe that 

917
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:40,360
she really believes she had 
those experiences versus just it

918
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:43,920
seems like make her making it up
is the easiest answer. 

919
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:48,400
Megan, we haven't given you a 
chance to to respond, but then I

920
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:49,760
want to hear people respond to 
that. 

921
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:55,800
And right now, by the way, the 
vote 481 out of the there's 3500

922
00:54:55,800 --> 00:55:02,800
people on this live stream. 
So far, 485 of you have voted 

923
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:07,240
and 67% of you say that she 
really believes she had the 

924
00:55:07,240 --> 00:55:10,760
visions. 
And 33% of you who voted think 

925
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:12,360
she's lying. 
All right, Megan, let's get you 

926
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,400
in here. 
Well, I mean, let's start off by

927
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:18,080
saying that Lori is a 
pathological liar. 

928
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:20,360
She's lied about obviously so 
many things. 

929
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:24,320
And I think this interview 
really brings that out because 

930
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:28,440
in the face of Keith Morrison 
giving Lori actual receipts, 

931
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:36,360
where one example is where Keith
Morrison talks about Charles 

932
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:40,400
being possessed by a demon named
Ned Schneider. 

933
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,480
And Lori says, did you hear him 
say that? 

934
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,360
And he said, well, yeah, I see 
the I saw the body Cam footage, 

935
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:48,920
you know, I I heard him say 
those words. 

936
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:54,480
Even in the face of that, you 
know, very telling evidence, 

937
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:59,280
Lori still wants to delude 
anyone who will believe her into

938
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,600
into accepting her narrative of 
events or believing something 

939
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,560
different. 
So we know that she's a 

940
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:09,480
pathological liar, but also 
there's a phenomenon where you 

941
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:12,960
can delude yourself. 
You can convince yourself that 

942
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,480
something is true when it's not 
true. 

943
00:56:15,720 --> 00:56:19,760
So I think she has deluded 
herself that she has seen Jesus.

944
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:23,720
I think she's deluded herself 
that Chad actually is a prophet.

945
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:27,280
I think she's deluded herself 
that she has a special mission 

946
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:31,120
to gather the 144,000. 
I think she's deluded herself 

947
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:34,120
that she and Chad have done 
nothing wrong and will be 

948
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:37,080
exonerated because they're on 
this special mission from God. 

949
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:41,720
So I think 1 can convince 
oneself of things that are not 

950
00:56:41,720 --> 00:56:43,480
true. 
And I think that's what she has 

951
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,840
done in this case. 
There is also, I just want to go

952
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:49,920
back real quickly to people 
saying, is she deeply in love 

953
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:51,800
with Chad? 
And they're still communicating.

954
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:57,000
They, you know, Keith alleged in
one of his, you sort of unpacked

955
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,480
recap of the interview 
afterwards that they're writing 

956
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,800
letters to each other. 
So they're communicating, but 

957
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:07,400
Lori's not capable of love in 
the way that that most normal 

958
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:11,840
people would define love as in 
an, an, an attachment to 

959
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:18,320
someone, a security with them 
and a desire for their happiness

960
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:21,640
and their well-being. 
Lori's not capable of that kind 

961
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,840
of a connection. 
So when people talk about, you 

962
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,400
know, she still loves Chad. 
She's still wearing the wedding 

963
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:28,760
ring. 
Well, she's still wearing her 

964
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:32,080
little, you know, hair tie 
around her finger to let people 

965
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:35,000
know she is still very much de 
Belle. 

966
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:39,320
She wants to be De Belle because
that gives her an elevated 

967
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:43,240
status to be married to a 
prophet or somebody she believes

968
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:46,600
is a God who was the Holy Ghost 
in a past life. 

969
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,920
So she is always going to do and
say the things that are going to

970
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:54,280
elevate her status above 
everyone else and that are going

971
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:58,000
to try to manipulate people into
believing that she is this 

972
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:00,520
glorified being who has a 
special mission. 

973
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:02,360
That's always what she's going 
to do. 

974
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:07,120
All of that being said, there 
are always these little moments 

975
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:13,000
that I see just after she tells 
Keith one of her lies, she sort 

976
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:15,280
of looks down and her face falls
a little bit. 

977
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:17,400
The mask slips just a little 
bit. 

978
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:21,440
So I do think that the real Lori
is still in there somewhere. 

979
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,800
And I think that the real Lori 
knows that she's lying, that 

980
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:30,200
she's manipulating, but this is 
what she has to do given the 

981
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:32,880
circumstances of where she is 
right now in her life. 

982
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:37,000
Yeah. 
And any other comments on the 

983
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:39,400
topic? 
There's, there's also a middle 

984
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:42,280
ground here. 
I, I think you, you're putting 

985
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:46,080
it in John, whether you know, 
does Lori believe she's 

986
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:51,360
literally meeting Jesus and 
talking to him and being friends

987
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:56,680
with, with, with Tammy and Ty 
Lee, or is she, you know, is she

988
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:59,480
lying to everybody and not 
doesn't really believe it? 

989
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:06,440
I think there is a middle ground
where she could believe this is 

990
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:07,920
happening. 
You know, she's talking to 

991
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:12,000
Jesus, but not in the, in the 
sense that we imagine she's 

992
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,160
believing she's, she's talking 
to Jesus. 

993
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:20,080
An example of this I think is 
the, the, the portal theology 

994
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:24,480
that Chad label came up with 
where, you know, they believe 

995
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:29,120
that they, they, the certain 
people, especially him and Lori,

996
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:31,600
could use spiritual portals to 
communicate with the, with the 

997
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:34,200
spirit world. 
And Lori claimed that she had a 

998
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:40,200
portal in her closet at her home
in Rexburg where she can kind of

999
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:42,880
spiritual spiritually connect 
with Chad. 

1000
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:48,360
And I think this, this shows 
way, way before the murders that

1001
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:54,080
they are people that are willing
to believe these things because 

1002
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,200
they might feel some kind of 
impression or feeling that this 

1003
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:00,480
thing is working. 
Not in the, in the sense that, 

1004
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:04,640
you know, you and I, my my 
believe is actually working. 

1005
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:06,760
I don't know if that if that 
makes sense. 

1006
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:12,160
But you know, think about how 
Mormon prophets today when they 

1007
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:15,600
talk about communicating with 
Jesus and receiving revelation. 

1008
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:19,200
Most Mormons, a lot of Mormons 
couldn't, would interpret that 

1009
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:21,360
as like. 
Oh, they're actually talking to 

1010
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:25,560
Jesus when in reality that's not
what's on Mormon prophets minds 

1011
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:27,440
today. 
Does that make sense? 

1012
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:31,200
Yeah, Lauren, any final comments
you want to make? 

1013
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:37,160
Yeah, yeah, I don't, you know, 
yes, so many things. 

1014
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:39,680
First off, I want to correct one
of something I said. 

1015
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:43,320
I said that she was psychotic. 
I meant psychopathic. 

1016
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:47,720
It is, I think, psychopathic to 
say that didn't happen. 

1017
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:51,960
That's not true that, you know, 
with evidence right in front of 

1018
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:54,720
your face. 
That's what psychopaths do. 

1019
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:58,560
And and no, she didn't really 
have visions, but it's sort of 

1020
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:01,320
like when we were talking about 
Kevin Franke and the 

1021
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:05,560
documentary, like he wanted to 
believe that he was seeing 

1022
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:08,120
things flying across the room. 
He wanted to believe, he said, 

1023
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:09,840
I'm an engineer and I can't 
explain it. 

1024
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:15,000
He wanted to believe it. 
He wanted that smudge on the 

1025
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:17,640
window to be a handprint from a 
demon. 

1026
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:20,960
So when you want something, 
you're going to believe it. 

1027
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,480
And there was this moment in the
Frankie documentary too, where 

1028
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:31,200
Kevin says what was in front of 
my face looking at it, you know,

1029
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:35,480
my, my abused children, the 
photos of my children absolutely

1030
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:40,600
abused and tortured wasn't what 
it was in my brain and wasn't 

1031
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:43,320
and wasn't the reality in my 
brain what I was looking at. 

1032
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:46,400
And he couldn't compute it. 
He couldn't he like refused. 

1033
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:49,720
So this idea, I always say, 
people always say that seeing is

1034
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:52,600
believing and it's not true. 
Believing is actually seeing the

1035
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:54,480
way we believe is the way we 
will see. 

1036
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:57,240
If you want to believe 
something, then it's incredible 

1037
01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:00,320
what a mind can do. 
It's actually frightening too. 

1038
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:05,160
And I think that you have to 
look at let's let's call it what

1039
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:06,360
it is. 
It's terrorism. 

1040
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:08,680
I mean, this was a murder spree 
across states. 

1041
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:11,720
It's terrorism in the name of 
beliefs. 

1042
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:17,560
And terrorism comes from extreme
religious beliefs, extremism 

1043
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:21,680
that people believe that, that 
they will die for that, you 

1044
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:25,480
know, call it what it is. 
And so I, I think we need to 

1045
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:28,560
address this, that that the 
minds are an incredible thing. 

1046
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:33,480
And if you want to believe 
something and seeing isn't 

1047
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:37,640
necessarily believing, believing
is seen even with evidence right

1048
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:39,520
in front of your face. 
And I think to me, that's been 

1049
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:41,800
the most frightening thing as a 
journalist looking at this world

1050
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:44,280
and looking how we're computing 
information and receiving 

1051
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:49,520
information, you know, and, and 
watching how politicians deny 

1052
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:53,080
what's really going on in this 
world when we, you know, 

1053
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:55,960
evidence says it ourselves like,
no, this really happened. 

1054
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:00,080
And people just believe what 
they want to believe. 

1055
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:03,600
And so Lori Valo, I think, is a 
representative of sort of this 

1056
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:07,440
world that we live in where if 
you want to believe something, 

1057
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:09,960
you can believe it. 
And I, and I say this 'cause I 

1058
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:14,760
think we all need to kind of 
check ourselves and start 

1059
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:18,280
believing evidence a little bit 
more, but you know, it's not, 

1060
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:20,520
we've seen this time and time 
again with history. 

1061
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:25,800
We, we believe what we want to 
believe and maybe we shouldn't. 

1062
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:29,560
And then I, and then I just want
to say with Gerardo bringing up 

1063
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:31,840
the portals and John, you 
bringing up the near death 

1064
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:36,120
experience in childbirth and me 
bringing up the aging backwards.

1065
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:39,880
These are also the books that 
Lori Vallow is reading. 

1066
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:42,800
All, all of those things are 
found in The Visions of Glory by

1067
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:46,120
John Pontius and Tom Harrison 
that that Lori Valla was reading

1068
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:50,280
poolside when she was confronted
by Hawaii police. 

1069
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:54,040
This is a worldview that she is 
believing. 

1070
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:59,000
So yes, she is creating and 
manipulating things in her brain

1071
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:03,720
to have excuses as as we point 
out, like, oh, this is going to 

1072
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:08,120
really work in my favor if it's 
my daughter's fault. 

1073
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:13,160
And and this is this is good. 
And so she's manipulative and 

1074
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:20,120
she's lying, but you know, this 
is also a worldview and, and her

1075
01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:23,440
perception is this greater 
worldview that I think is really

1076
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:26,080
sort of important to point out 
and, and address. 

1077
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:29,960
Yeah, think about when members 
of the LDS Church, you know, 

1078
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:34,520
stand up at once a month in 
sacrament meeting and they they 

1079
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:39,120
say, I know the church is true. 
You know, I think everyone 

1080
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:42,800
outside of Mormonism would know 
that that phrase doesn't 

1081
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:45,720
necessarily mean they have an 
actual knowledge in the 

1082
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:49,920
empirical sense. 
What it often means is they feel

1083
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,400
something deeply, you know, they
want it to be true. 

1084
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:56,480
They have had an emotional 
experience and that they that 

1085
01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:58,960
they interpret as confirming 
it's true. 

1086
01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:04,160
And I, I see somewhat a 
similarity here with when 

1087
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:07,160
Laurie's talking about these 
things that to us sound Gracie, 

1088
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:11,160
you know, like talking to Jesus.
Like, you know, if we could 

1089
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:15,480
really put ourselves in her 
head, I don't think she would 

1090
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:18,880
see it the same way we're 
imagining she's talking to 

1091
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:22,400
Jesus. 
Love it. 

1092
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:26,160
Let me just thank all the people
that are that have liked this 

1093
01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:28,640
episode and subscribed thanks to
all the Super chats. 

1094
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:30,200
We're going to get to all the 
Super chats. 

1095
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:33,400
I may save them either for 
different parts of the episode 

1096
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:35,440
or a little bit towards the end 
because I don't want to disrupt 

1097
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:38,360
the flow of the conversation 
just to show a bunch of super 

1098
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:39,880
chats, but just know they're 
going to come. 

1099
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:44,240
I did a second poll. 
So the so the first poll, I 

1100
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:47,840
closed it after 739 votes. 
So by the way, somebody said I'm

1101
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:49,680
yelling. 
I'll try not to yell into the 

1102
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:51,200
microphone. 
It's hard. 

1103
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:58,400
After 739 votes, the final tally
is 66% believe that Lori 

1104
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:02,720
actually believes her visions, 
33% do not believe that. 

1105
01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:06,920
I've now put up a new poll and 
the new poll is, does Chad 

1106
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:11,160
actually believe he and Laurie 
will be saved by Jesus? 

1107
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:14,800
And also, you know, in all these
visions and, and divine 

1108
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:19,280
intervention and all this and 
weirdly, tell me if y'all think 

1109
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:25,480
this is weird, it's the exact 
opposite with our audience. 64% 

1110
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:30,800
of you do not believe that Chad 
believes that they will be 

1111
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:34,200
saved, saved by Jesus or the 
Jesus is behind all of this. 

1112
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:39,320
And 36, only 35% of you think 
Chad is a true believer. 

1113
01:06:39,680 --> 01:06:43,480
Does does that surprise any of 
our panelists that that our 

1114
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:46,920
viewers have the exact opposite 
view of Chad? 

1115
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:50,720
Let's hear it. 
Mika, do you go first? 

1116
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:54,840
No, it doesn't surprise me 
because I I agree. 

1117
01:06:54,840 --> 01:07:00,600
I don't think Chad believes it. 
I just the look on his face and 

1118
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:04,360
his body express his body 
language, his demeanor, his 

1119
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:08,000
expression during his trial and 
especially during his 

1120
01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:12,160
sentencing. 
I I believe that he had some 

1121
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:16,680
forgive the expression come to 
Jesus moments there where he's 

1122
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:19,240
he's facing the reality of the 
death penalty. 

1123
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:23,120
Lori's not. 
And so for him, I think maybe 

1124
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:27,760
this is a lot more real for him.
The reality that, you know, of 

1125
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:31,800
what they actually did, the 
reality that, you know, he was 

1126
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:34,000
making this all up. 
He was delusional. 

1127
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:37,640
I think he did a lot of this 
stuff to, to get Lori's 

1128
01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:43,000
attention. 
He changed his his tune a little

1129
01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:47,440
bit when Julie Rose started to 
get recognition for having a 

1130
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:50,160
near death experience. 
Then all of a sudden, oh, his 

1131
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:53,800
was a near death experience too.
And then you know. 

1132
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:56,640
His. 
Books that were fiction before 

1133
01:07:56,640 --> 01:08:00,600
suddenly became real because he 
knew that that gives him, again,

1134
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:04,240
some elevated status within the 
church community and within the 

1135
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:07,600
prepper community of, you know, 
having these visions. 

1136
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:12,320
I think he knows more than Lori 
does, that he has manufactured a

1137
01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:16,399
lot of this and that he did it 
in order to get closer to Lori 

1138
01:08:16,399 --> 01:08:20,080
and to, you know, the whole 
money, power sex thing. 

1139
01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:24,520
I think that Chad has a 
recognition of his own delusion 

1140
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:27,200
and that it did exist. 
I don't think he's deluded 

1141
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:29,080
anymore. 
I think he has a recognition of 

1142
01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:33,120
his guilt. 
So I, yeah, I agree. 

1143
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:35,600
I agree with the viewers. 
I don't think Chad believes it 

1144
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:43,399
the way that Lori does. 
Ferrardo and Lauren Ferrardo. 

1145
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:45,640
I agree. 
I agree with me. 

1146
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:51,920
OK, OK. 
And Lauren, yeah, yeah, I, I 

1147
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:54,319
think when it comes to Chad, 
because this has been a 

1148
01:08:54,319 --> 01:08:59,880
discussion I've been having with
my husband for five years, like 

1149
01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:03,200
where just so you know, where my
husband, he's a criminal 

1150
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:06,319
psychologist. 
He's he believes that Chad does 

1151
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:10,439
believe it, but he he believes 
that I sort of like Megan said 

1152
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:14,760
that he's convinced himself of 
it through sort of like as 

1153
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:18,160
things have progressed, like he 
was very manipulative and, you 

1154
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:21,760
know, BS ING his way through 
this and then was just like, 

1155
01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:24,319
wow, like this is real. 
I'm believing this. 

1156
01:09:24,319 --> 01:09:27,600
Like, look at me, I'm the man, 
look at this, you know, woman 

1157
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:32,000
I'm with. 
I think for me, the question 

1158
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:35,560
with Chad's belief is where do 
his beliefs end and begin? 

1159
01:09:35,560 --> 01:09:39,560
Because we know or I believe 
that he believes in Mormonism. 

1160
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:42,920
I believe that he believes in 
his political worldview. 

1161
01:09:43,399 --> 01:09:47,840
I believe that he believes in 
dark and light. 

1162
01:09:48,359 --> 01:09:50,960
I believe that I think he 
believes some people are taken 

1163
01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:53,319
by evil spirits. 
Right. 

1164
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:58,000
When I hear and go to attend his
trial and I see him manipulating

1165
01:09:58,000 --> 01:10:01,800
Lori with text as she writes and
he says, Oh, yeah, you can 

1166
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:04,160
control the elements, babe. 
And, you know, you're the 

1167
01:10:04,160 --> 01:10:07,520
greatest of all things and Jesus
loves you most, babe, and you're

1168
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:09,920
a goddess. 
Like, I don't know if he 

1169
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:13,280
believes that. 
Like, is he just be asking this 

1170
01:10:13,280 --> 01:10:14,680
woman? 
Do, you know, sleep with her 

1171
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:17,960
maybe? 
So I think for me, the question 

1172
01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:22,240
with Chad is where did his 
beliefs end and where do they 

1173
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:25,560
begin? 
And I do believe that he has 

1174
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:28,480
some very extreme religious 
beliefs. 

1175
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:31,200
I believe that when he was 
giving that speech, the day he 

1176
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:34,400
met Lori Vallow and he's talking
about the second coming and how 

1177
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:36,400
people are going to actually 
travel to Ivan's, where Jodi 

1178
01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:38,800
Hildebrand is. 
And he mentions that, you know, 

1179
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:41,320
Ivan's is going to be a place 
and they're going to travel up 

1180
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:43,280
and then they're going to 
there's going to be this Mecca 

1181
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:45,240
in Rexburg. 
And that's why he's there. 

1182
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:46,440
And he moved his whole family 
there. 

1183
01:10:46,440 --> 01:10:48,160
And he did, he moved his entire 
family there. 

1184
01:10:48,160 --> 01:10:51,560
Like I think that's a belief. 
I think he believes these 

1185
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:56,840
extreme beliefs too. 
Then he he meets this hot blonde

1186
01:10:56,840 --> 01:11:00,680
girl who's by his words, you 
know, hot and loaded. 

1187
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:05,280
At that point does he start 
manipulating? 

1188
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:11,120
And no, he's not a prophet. 
Or is he convincing he himself 

1189
01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:14,080
he is too? 
For me, the eternal question is 

1190
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:19,880
where do his extreme beliefs 
begin and where do they end? 

1191
01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:25,800
All right. 
Let let me now go to asking you 

1192
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:28,000
all. 
You know, Keith, basically the 

1193
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:33,320
first, I'd say 3/4 of the two 
hours was him just retelling the

1194
01:11:33,320 --> 01:11:37,360
entire story. 
There were a couple points that 

1195
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:41,160
really stuck out to me, but I'm 
curious, Lauren and Megan and 

1196
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:45,880
Gerardo, were there any points 
of the retelling that were 

1197
01:11:45,880 --> 01:11:51,800
particularly new or interesting 
to any of you before I I bring 

1198
01:11:51,800 --> 01:11:54,840
out the ones that I want to 
bring out in terms of just the 

1199
01:11:54,880 --> 01:12:00,640
evidence shown, the video shown,
Laurie's reaction, anything 

1200
01:12:00,640 --> 01:12:03,280
y'all want to highlight or 
should I just start mentioning 

1201
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:06,320
some? 
Yeah, go ahead. 

1202
01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:13,800
Mentioned. 
OK, so, so the video, the video 

1203
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:19,000
portion, let let's see where 
they show Chad. 

1204
01:12:20,280 --> 01:12:25,160
It is that Lori bringing in the 
spare tire from the from the 

1205
01:12:25,160 --> 01:12:28,880
automobile and then the chair 
from the automobile. 

1206
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:32,440
And and then they kind of walk 
out and I guess it makes a 

1207
01:12:32,440 --> 01:12:36,000
reference to Chad touching Lori 
in a special way. 

1208
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:38,880
Sorry. 
Yeah. 

1209
01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:41,600
And then, you know, they're 
basically insinuating that 

1210
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:45,560
they're prepping the car for an 
assassination attempt. 

1211
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:49,760
Had y'all seen that footage 
before and was that surprising 

1212
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:53,240
to you at all? 
Yeah, we've seen that before. 

1213
01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:57,800
And this was this was brought 
out actually during Laurie's 

1214
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:03,080
trial where there, you know, she
Googled how to remove or Alex 

1215
01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:05,560
Googled how to remove the 
backseat of a Jeep. 

1216
01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:09,680
And then they show this footage 
of them coming into the storage 

1217
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:12,400
unit. 
You know, Chad is is helping her

1218
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:15,800
bring the tire in and then bring
the back seat in. 

1219
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:21,000
And then Alex is seeing the next
day taking the tire out, taking 

1220
01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:23,000
the back seat back out to put it
back in the Jeep. 

1221
01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:24,840
So we we've seen that one 
before. 

1222
01:13:25,240 --> 01:13:28,840
I don't think I noticed Chad 
padding her on the butt, though.

1223
01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:30,760
I don't think I noticed that one
before. 

1224
01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:35,080
My favorite part of that 
footage, yes, we have seen it 

1225
01:13:35,080 --> 01:13:40,520
before, but this this always, I 
always enjoy pointing this out 

1226
01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:46,960
that when Chad is removing the 
attire and as you say, John 

1227
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:51,400
touching Lori in a special way 
as he's removing the tire to to 

1228
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:54,440
you know, he is rolling it. 
Chad has to roll it. 

1229
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:58,320
And then when Alex is putting it
back, he actually carries the 

1230
01:13:58,320 --> 01:14:00,160
tire. 
And that's just a little detail 

1231
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:04,040
that I, I love to point out too,
that, you know, Chad can't even 

1232
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:09,440
lift the tire that Alex can. 
So once again, not a God, not a 

1233
01:14:09,440 --> 01:14:12,280
prophet, can't even lift a tire.
But yeah. 

1234
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:16,560
I always find that really funny 
too, Lauren, and thanks for 

1235
01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:20,480
pointing that out because, yeah,
you know, if he, if he was 

1236
01:14:20,720 --> 01:14:22,880
really a God, don't you think 
he'd have, you know, some 

1237
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:26,160
special strength at least where 
he could, you know, lift a car 

1238
01:14:26,160 --> 01:14:27,680
tire? 
Right. 

1239
01:14:27,680 --> 01:14:30,200
Well, Peter Griffiths, it goes 
to the Peter, Peter Griffith. 

1240
01:14:30,200 --> 01:14:32,120
You know, like, what in the 
world did she see in him? 

1241
01:14:32,120 --> 01:14:35,600
He couldn't even lift the tire. 
Like people who can't wrap our 

1242
01:14:35,600 --> 01:14:37,520
brains around what she saw in 
Chad. 

1243
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:40,600
And it's just one other like 
little subtle thing like her 

1244
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:42,440
brother can lift the tire and 
Chad can't. 

1245
01:14:42,440 --> 01:14:44,360
Like what? 
What's he good for if you can't 

1246
01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:45,560
even lift a Jeep tire? 
Sorry. 

1247
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:49,080
He's a little bit schlubby, I 
have to admit that. 

1248
01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:53,480
OK, maybe the most 
confrontational part of the 

1249
01:14:53,480 --> 01:14:57,520
whole episode was when Keith 
just flat on asks her, you know,

1250
01:14:57,520 --> 01:15:00,720
were you there with them, you 
know, when they died? 

1251
01:15:01,160 --> 01:15:03,080
And she's like, which place? 
Which place? 

1252
01:15:03,480 --> 01:15:05,240
You don't know Keith. 
You don't even know what you're 

1253
01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:07,720
talking about. 
And he, like, got serious. 

1254
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:11,400
And he he basically said, did 
you watch your children die? 

1255
01:15:12,040 --> 01:15:15,560
And then she says that's a 
terrible question, but then 

1256
01:15:16,200 --> 01:15:17,560
what's that? 
A sad question. 

1257
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:20,680
Here I thought that was an 
interesting just adjective she 

1258
01:15:20,680 --> 01:15:22,040
used. 
So yeah, sad question. 

1259
01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:24,480
And then she and then she ended 
up saying no. 

1260
01:15:25,160 --> 01:15:26,680
What? 
What did y'all think to that 

1261
01:15:26,680 --> 01:15:28,240
exchange? 
Lauren, let's have you go first 

1262
01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:31,360
since you you jumped in. 
Yeah, I actually thought that 

1263
01:15:31,360 --> 01:15:35,160
was a really poignant moment 
because she is so full of 

1264
01:15:35,160 --> 01:15:38,920
contempt and anger. 
And so for her to use the word 

1265
01:15:38,920 --> 01:15:43,680
sad actually struck me when she 
said that's a sad question that 

1266
01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:46,120
almost felt like, oh, did we 
just see Lori, like, use a bit 

1267
01:15:46,120 --> 01:15:49,160
of emotion? 
You know, did we just see a 

1268
01:15:49,160 --> 01:15:52,240
crack in that mask where like, 
she can't go there because 

1269
01:15:52,240 --> 01:15:56,000
that's sad? 
And it took me back to a day at 

1270
01:15:56,000 --> 01:15:57,880
her trial again. 
I attended every day of her 

1271
01:15:57,880 --> 01:16:02,880
trial, and there was very, very 
little emotion from Lori. 

1272
01:16:02,880 --> 01:16:06,240
She flirted with her attorney. 
She smiled, she laughed. 

1273
01:16:06,240 --> 01:16:12,240
She very flippant and that was 
something that everybody in at 

1274
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:14,520
her trial noticed. 
But there was this one day in 

1275
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:16,720
trial and it was the day they 
were going to show her 

1276
01:16:16,720 --> 01:16:21,400
children's autopsies. 
And all of a sudden we come back

1277
01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:23,080
from recess and nothing's 
happening. 

1278
01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:24,840
Nothing's happening. 
And Lori's not showing up. 

1279
01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:28,840
And she finally, finally comes 
out very angry and distraught 

1280
01:16:28,840 --> 01:16:31,160
and upset. 
And her attorneys have to argue 

1281
01:16:31,160 --> 01:16:33,480
that Lori feels like she 
shouldn't have to be in the 

1282
01:16:33,480 --> 01:16:38,360
courtroom when the autopsies of 
her children are shown. 

1283
01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:42,160
And everyone sort of gasped. 
Like, like, you know, it's just 

1284
01:16:42,160 --> 01:16:44,960
like, if, if this person can't 
get more despicable, she just 

1285
01:16:44,960 --> 01:16:46,680
did it right? 
Like, you're going to force this

1286
01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:50,040
jury and all of us to look at 
these autopsies of your 

1287
01:16:50,040 --> 01:16:52,360
children. 
You are here because of these 

1288
01:16:52,360 --> 01:16:55,680
autopsies of your children. 
Like, it is just, it is just 

1289
01:16:56,200 --> 01:16:58,200
horrendous what has happened to 
your children. 

1290
01:16:58,400 --> 01:17:02,160
And you think that you shouldn't
have to look at them when all of

1291
01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:03,120
us are going to have to see 
them? 

1292
01:17:03,120 --> 01:17:05,920
And this jury, these innocent 
people here deciding your fate, 

1293
01:17:05,920 --> 01:17:07,800
are going to have to look at 
them like it was just this 

1294
01:17:07,800 --> 01:17:11,240
moment of just like, how dare 
she? 

1295
01:17:12,480 --> 01:17:15,360
And then the judge ruled, of 
course, that she had to be 

1296
01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:17,120
there. 
And through the rest of that day

1297
01:17:17,120 --> 01:17:21,040
in trial, she sort of patted and
looked sad and wouldn't look at 

1298
01:17:21,040 --> 01:17:26,080
the screen and look down. 
And although we were all upset 

1299
01:17:26,080 --> 01:17:32,240
and I was upset, I then watched 
Chad Debell's trial where he 

1300
01:17:32,240 --> 01:17:36,480
just watched the autopsies with 
no issues, checked him out, 

1301
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:39,880
looked at his deceased wife. 
I we were sitting, a group of us

1302
01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:44,680
were sitting behind Chad Daybell
as he scrolled pictures of Tammy

1303
01:17:44,680 --> 01:17:49,640
dead without making an emotion. 
And after seeing that, I was 

1304
01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:54,040
like, Oh, my gosh, like, now, 
like the whole Lori thing 

1305
01:17:54,040 --> 01:17:56,520
doesn't seem so bad that she 
didn't want to see autopsy 

1306
01:17:56,520 --> 01:17:59,560
photos of her children. 
And so for this moment of her 

1307
01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:02,800
saying, oh, that's a sad 
question. 

1308
01:18:02,880 --> 01:18:06,920
I just wonder if that was just 
like a slip of like, of just 

1309
01:18:06,920 --> 01:18:09,160
like, yeah, like, that makes her
sad. 

1310
01:18:09,160 --> 01:18:11,200
And that's where her denial 
comes from. 

1311
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:15,280
And now I'm going full circle. 
She is an absolute denial 

1312
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:18,320
because she cannot handle the 
truth. 

1313
01:18:18,480 --> 01:18:20,880
And then of course, that moment 
of, oh, that's a sad question. 

1314
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:23,640
She jumped back to being super 
angry and defiant. 

1315
01:18:23,640 --> 01:18:28,160
So it was just this sliver of a 
moment I thought, is that where 

1316
01:18:28,160 --> 01:18:31,880
her denial is coming from? 
She just can't go there. 

1317
01:18:33,920 --> 01:18:35,560
Gerardo, did you want to add 
something? 

1318
01:18:36,480 --> 01:18:40,560
I, I think I, I agree with 
Lauren, that's a really good 

1319
01:18:40,560 --> 01:18:47,280
assessment as to how she 
decides, you know, where, where 

1320
01:18:47,280 --> 01:18:54,760
the how, how her emotions can 
drive her worldview and, and, 

1321
01:18:54,760 --> 01:19:01,240
and then come up with ways to 
justify this horrific events. 

1322
01:19:03,440 --> 01:19:05,800
Megan, anything you want to add 
about that, that exchange? 

1323
01:19:06,440 --> 01:19:10,040
Yeah, yeah, I agree with 
Lauren's assessment as well. 

1324
01:19:10,040 --> 01:19:12,840
I just want to point out though,
that you know, everything that 

1325
01:19:12,840 --> 01:19:17,320
we heard from from Lori, her 
responses to Keiths questions, 

1326
01:19:17,560 --> 01:19:21,200
it's all part of that delusional
manipulation. 

1327
01:19:21,200 --> 01:19:23,520
She's answering questions with 
questions. 

1328
01:19:23,840 --> 01:19:29,360
She's trying to obfuscate by, 
you know, re asking, you know, 

1329
01:19:29,720 --> 01:19:32,200
in what place were you there? 
In what place? 

1330
01:19:32,320 --> 01:19:33,760
Where do you think it happened? 
Keith? 

1331
01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:36,760
What are you saying, Keith? 
You know, just trying to steer 

1332
01:19:36,760 --> 01:19:40,200
everything back to her giving 
the narrative that she wants 

1333
01:19:40,200 --> 01:19:42,720
again, Keith saying like she had
an agenda. 

1334
01:19:42,720 --> 01:19:44,560
It was to put forward this 
story. 

1335
01:19:44,560 --> 01:19:46,960
And that's where she keeps 
trying to steer it back to. 

1336
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:51,320
Just trying to take back the 
interview from Keith to say, you

1337
01:19:51,320 --> 01:19:53,360
know, I'm trying to tell you the
truth and you don't want to 

1338
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:55,720
listen. 
You know, stop asking me these 

1339
01:19:55,720 --> 01:20:01,440
questions so that I can tell you
my truth, you know, but we do 

1340
01:20:01,440 --> 01:20:04,840
see sort of a change in her 
demeanor when she says that's a 

1341
01:20:04,840 --> 01:20:09,320
really sad question. 
I don't necessarily think that 

1342
01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:11,920
she's feeling any sadness at 
that moment. 

1343
01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:16,440
I think she's just calling 
attention to the fact that it's 

1344
01:20:16,440 --> 01:20:19,600
a bold question. 
It's a really direct question 

1345
01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:24,760
and it's a really hard question 
for her to answer because she. 

1346
01:20:25,400 --> 01:20:28,960
Can't answer it without letting 
something slip, right? 

1347
01:20:29,320 --> 01:20:33,480
So she doesn't ever answer that 
direct question that Keith asks 

1348
01:20:33,480 --> 01:20:36,120
her. 
What she says is I was not 

1349
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:38,560
there. 
She doesn't say. 

1350
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:41,200
He asks her, did you watch your 
children die? 

1351
01:20:41,280 --> 01:20:44,480
She doesn't say no, that's very 
telling. 

1352
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:48,880
She just says, I was not there. 
And that could mean anything to 

1353
01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:51,320
Lori. 
It could mean her spirit wasn't 

1354
01:20:51,320 --> 01:20:55,720
there, her mind wasn't there. 
It could mean that, you know, 

1355
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:58,880
she participated but maybe left 
the room at some point. 

1356
01:20:58,920 --> 01:21:01,800
It, it could mean anything. 
And that's, I think what I've 

1357
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:07,040
learned with Lori, is that what 
whatever she tells you has a 

1358
01:21:07,040 --> 01:21:10,640
different definition in her mind
than it does to the rest of the 

1359
01:21:10,640 --> 01:21:13,720
world. 
Yeah, exactly. 

1360
01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:17,760
Really quickly, because this is 
such a dark story, I want to 

1361
01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:24,160
just take a second to share 
something really positive and 

1362
01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:30,680
something really happy. 
So basically some of you may 

1363
01:21:30,680 --> 01:21:35,640
remember that I interviewed Anna
Schreyer recently on Mormon 

1364
01:21:35,640 --> 01:21:40,240
Stories podcast. 
She grew up in Utah as a member 

1365
01:21:40,240 --> 01:21:44,160
of the Assembly of God Church 
and, you know, as a Pentecostal.

1366
01:21:44,280 --> 01:21:47,960
And she did an interview and she
talked about how eventually she 

1367
01:21:47,960 --> 01:21:55,440
moved back east and worked for a
church that had her gut her 

1368
01:21:55,440 --> 01:21:58,080
house because they'd promised to
help her renovate her house. 

1369
01:21:58,440 --> 01:22:03,000
And then when she lost her faith
in her church, it left her house

1370
01:22:03,000 --> 01:22:05,560
gutted with no one to help her 
renovate it. 

1371
01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:09,440
And I just wanted to share with 
you all something super happy 

1372
01:22:09,440 --> 01:22:13,760
and inspirational. 
This photo right now is a photo 

1373
01:22:13,760 --> 01:22:18,040
of Bishop, former Mormon Bishop 
Nathan Hinckley. 

1374
01:22:19,400 --> 01:22:24,480
He is literally at Anna 
Schreyer's house right now, and 

1375
01:22:24,480 --> 01:22:29,720
they're renovating Anna 
Schreyer's house as just a 

1376
01:22:29,720 --> 01:22:32,280
service project. 
Y'all will know that Nathan 

1377
01:22:32,280 --> 01:22:36,480
Hinckley runs a new YouTube 
channel called The Bishop's 

1378
01:22:36,480 --> 01:22:39,160
Interview. 
It's got over 2000 subscribers. 

1379
01:22:39,640 --> 01:22:45,320
And Nathan's working really hard
to, you know, to build a channel

1380
01:22:45,320 --> 01:22:47,080
of his own. 
But I just think it's really, 

1381
01:22:47,080 --> 01:22:51,800
really inspiring in a time 
that's so dark to just see an 

1382
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:55,520
example of people out of the 
goodness of their heart trying 

1383
01:22:55,520 --> 01:22:57,640
to make a positive difference in
the world. 

1384
01:22:57,920 --> 01:22:59,760
So thank you, Nathan. 
Love you. 

1385
01:22:59,800 --> 01:23:03,440
And thanks to everyone who's 
helping Bishop Nathan. 

1386
01:23:03,440 --> 01:23:08,000
And we'll have hopefully y'all 
again back on Mormon Stories to 

1387
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:10,200
kind of share that inspiring 
story. 

1388
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:11,440
Anyway, I just had to share 
that. 

1389
01:23:12,840 --> 01:23:16,880
I've also started another poll 
asking our viewers and listeners

1390
01:23:16,880 --> 01:23:19,560
if they think Keith did an 
overall good job with the 

1391
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:26,480
interview so far with 250 votes,
82% say they think Keith did a 

1392
01:23:26,480 --> 01:23:32,240
good job with the interview, 18%
say no to that. 

1393
01:23:33,360 --> 01:23:38,160
Let me just ask you all Keith 
was interviewed by some other 

1394
01:23:38,160 --> 01:23:40,720
journalists just about what the 
interview was like for him. 

1395
01:23:41,320 --> 01:23:45,520
And what I, what I heard him say
was that she had this narrative 

1396
01:23:45,520 --> 01:23:50,520
that she wanted to tell and he 
spent most of the, I don't know,

1397
01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:54,280
hour and a half, two hours that 
he had just trying to corral her

1398
01:23:54,880 --> 01:23:58,440
and that she wasn't very 
cooperative in the interview. 

1399
01:23:59,480 --> 01:24:01,680
And, and then there's even the 
point of the interview where she

1400
01:24:01,680 --> 01:24:05,200
says it's going to take me hours
and hours and hours to tell you 

1401
01:24:05,200 --> 01:24:09,600
this full story. 
Maybe we need a lot more, you 

1402
01:24:09,600 --> 01:24:11,560
know, maybe we don't, we need a 
lot more time. 

1403
01:24:11,560 --> 01:24:13,560
We, we need a lot more of these 
episodes. 

1404
01:24:13,960 --> 01:24:17,440
And of course, the prison system
isn't going to let her do 

1405
01:24:17,440 --> 01:24:22,240
infinite interviews. 
But also that almost speaks to 

1406
01:24:22,240 --> 01:24:26,240
this idea that she just wants as
much fame and as much attention 

1407
01:24:26,240 --> 01:24:30,240
as she can get out of this. 
What do you all think about in 

1408
01:24:30,240 --> 01:24:31,480
Lauren? 
I'll have you go first because 

1409
01:24:31,480 --> 01:24:35,200
you are amongst us, the actual 
journalist. 

1410
01:24:35,680 --> 01:24:37,160
What do you guys think about 
Keith? 

1411
01:24:37,160 --> 01:24:39,880
Was he nervous? 
Was he aggressive? 

1412
01:24:40,120 --> 01:24:43,320
Was he annoyed? 
Was he effective? 

1413
01:24:44,400 --> 01:24:47,920
And I'll have each of you take a
stab at that question while are 

1414
01:24:48,480 --> 01:24:51,400
we'll ask our viewers and 
listeners to please vote, please

1415
01:24:51,400 --> 01:24:55,520
comment and also please like 
this episode and subscribe not 

1416
01:24:55,520 --> 01:24:58,520
only this channel, but the 
hidden true crime and third 

1417
01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:01,240
verse midlife revolution as 
well. 

1418
01:25:01,240 --> 01:25:05,200
Go ahead, Lauren. 
It would be a very difficult 

1419
01:25:05,400 --> 01:25:07,720
interview to do and it's sort of
hard to assess because we 

1420
01:25:07,720 --> 01:25:10,240
actually didn't see that much of
the 90 minute interview. 

1421
01:25:10,240 --> 01:25:12,760
I think actually, I think 
actually that might be 

1422
01:25:12,760 --> 01:25:15,000
everyone's biggest 
disappointment. 

1423
01:25:15,000 --> 01:25:19,560
It was a bit of mine too, that 
like, you know, we wanted to see

1424
01:25:19,560 --> 01:25:23,440
all 90 minutes understanding why
they couldn't, they had a story 

1425
01:25:23,440 --> 01:25:28,000
to tell, you know, so, but they 
showed us some really important 

1426
01:25:28,000 --> 01:25:30,600
parts and some important sound 
bites. 

1427
01:25:30,840 --> 01:25:34,000
I, I think that this is probably
an interview. 

1428
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:36,840
This is the type of interview 
where he probably did need about

1429
01:25:36,840 --> 01:25:38,680
four hours there. 
There are those interviews where

1430
01:25:38,680 --> 01:25:41,680
sometimes you can't even get to 
the meet if someone's really 

1431
01:25:41,680 --> 01:25:44,520
defensive and on their own 
tangent. 

1432
01:25:44,520 --> 01:25:47,920
You can't really get to the meet
of the interview for about an 

1433
01:25:47,920 --> 01:25:50,400
hour and a half because you just
have to like give them a safe 

1434
01:25:50,400 --> 01:25:54,000
space to talk and let them share
what they want before you can 

1435
01:25:54,000 --> 01:25:58,400
kind of really delve in. 
I imagine that the time crunch 

1436
01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:01,040
wasn't helpful. 
I think he probably did the best

1437
01:26:01,040 --> 01:26:03,640
he could. 
I appreciated how he was just 

1438
01:26:03,640 --> 01:26:06,840
trying to ask this question 
about her being there when her 

1439
01:26:06,840 --> 01:26:09,880
kids died and she just wouldn't 
let him ask it. 

1440
01:26:10,200 --> 01:26:11,640
And you can tell you finally got
frustrated. 

1441
01:26:11,640 --> 01:26:15,120
He's like, that's not what I'm 
asking, Just hear me out. 

1442
01:26:16,960 --> 01:26:19,360
It would be a very difficult 
interview to do and I can't 

1443
01:26:19,360 --> 01:26:24,040
imagine the pressure that he had
to do it within 90 minutes into.

1444
01:26:24,080 --> 01:26:27,520
From what I saw he did, he did a
great job. 

1445
01:26:28,800 --> 01:26:31,240
I want to ask all of you this, 
Lauren, is there a question, 

1446
01:26:31,280 --> 01:26:35,240
like one question you would want
to make sure you didn't leave 

1447
01:26:35,240 --> 01:26:37,520
there without asking her that he
didn't ask. 

1448
01:26:37,920 --> 01:26:40,320
And if if you need a time to 
think about that, I want to give

1449
01:26:40,320 --> 01:26:43,080
Ferrardo and Megan a chance to 
answer as well. 

1450
01:26:44,320 --> 01:26:47,040
Yeah. 
I think I, I definitely want to 

1451
01:26:47,040 --> 01:26:48,800
think about that. 
OK, question. 

1452
01:26:48,880 --> 01:26:51,560
That's, that's a good question, 
yeah. 

1453
01:26:51,600 --> 01:26:52,920
We'll come back. 
Corrado and Megan. 

1454
01:26:52,920 --> 01:26:55,120
Who do y'all do? 
Y'all think you did a good job? 

1455
01:26:55,160 --> 01:26:55,880
No. 
Do you have? 

1456
01:26:55,880 --> 01:26:57,600
Do you wish you could have done 
something better? 

1457
01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:00,200
Is there a question you would 
want him to ask? 

1458
01:27:00,200 --> 01:27:02,600
Go ahead, Megan. 
I think Keith did an excellent 

1459
01:27:02,600 --> 01:27:06,080
job and and you have to consider
what what he has to work with 

1460
01:27:06,080 --> 01:27:09,960
over here. 
If you haven't listened to the 

1461
01:27:09,960 --> 01:27:14,200
phone call between Colby and 
Lori, it's basically the same 

1462
01:27:14,200 --> 01:27:17,960
set of circumstances where Colby
was trying to ask her some very 

1463
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:20,880
specific questions and she would
not answer them. 

1464
01:27:21,280 --> 01:27:25,400
She was, you know, taking this 
roundabout route where he asks 

1465
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:28,720
her a question and then 20 
minutes later she still has not 

1466
01:27:28,720 --> 01:27:31,840
answered it because she is 
jumping around. 

1467
01:27:31,840 --> 01:27:33,480
She's telling different 
narratives. 

1468
01:27:33,480 --> 01:27:36,640
She's trying to over explain in 
some places, she's trying to 

1469
01:27:36,640 --> 01:27:40,480
avoid answering the actual 
question that's being asked and 

1470
01:27:40,480 --> 01:27:43,960
manipulate. 
So Keith even said in the couple

1471
01:27:43,960 --> 01:27:47,160
of interviews that he did with 
other people that it was really 

1472
01:27:47,160 --> 01:27:49,840
frustrating. 
She was very combative. 

1473
01:27:50,120 --> 01:27:54,400
It was really difficult for him 
to get her to answer anything 

1474
01:27:54,400 --> 01:27:59,080
that he was asking because she 
had this alternate, you know, 

1475
01:27:59,080 --> 01:28:01,400
agenda that she was trying to 
get done. 

1476
01:28:01,720 --> 01:28:03,760
So I think he did a really 
excellent job. 

1477
01:28:03,760 --> 01:28:07,000
And for people, anybody who's 
saying that, that Lori 

1478
01:28:07,000 --> 01:28:09,200
manipulated him, I don't think 
that's true. 

1479
01:28:09,200 --> 01:28:12,600
Keith is incredibly smart. 
He's dealt with people like this

1480
01:28:12,600 --> 01:28:14,520
before. 
I think he knew what he was 

1481
01:28:14,520 --> 01:28:16,200
doing. 
He was well prepared for the 

1482
01:28:16,200 --> 01:28:19,600
interview and he's just dealing 
with somebody who's got a bag of

1483
01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:22,320
cats in their head. 
So of course it's going to, you 

1484
01:28:22,320 --> 01:28:25,520
know, come across as difficult. 
And I think the reason we didn't

1485
01:28:25,520 --> 01:28:29,080
see more footage of Lori talking
is because it was like this 

1486
01:28:29,080 --> 01:28:33,360
meandering, nonsensical 
narrative that would have been 

1487
01:28:33,400 --> 01:28:36,080
too crazy for people to to 
understand. 

1488
01:28:36,440 --> 01:28:38,640
And that's why I said, if you've
listened to the phone call 

1489
01:28:38,640 --> 01:28:41,840
between Colby and Lori, it's the
same type of thing. 

1490
01:28:41,840 --> 01:28:45,240
It's really hard to decipher. 
I do an episode on my channel 

1491
01:28:45,240 --> 01:28:48,880
where I break down every little 
manipulation and every lie that 

1492
01:28:48,880 --> 01:28:53,440
she does during that interview. 
So I understand Keith, you know,

1493
01:28:53,640 --> 01:28:56,080
handling things the way that he 
did, and I thought that he 

1494
01:28:56,080 --> 01:28:59,640
handled it really well. 
And then there's one other thing

1495
01:28:59,640 --> 01:29:02,920
that that people keep saying, 
you know, about, you know, Keith

1496
01:29:02,920 --> 01:29:04,480
giving her a platform and 
everything. 

1497
01:29:04,480 --> 01:29:08,560
Well, actually, I think they did
a good job of only giving the 

1498
01:29:08,720 --> 01:29:11,840
the few little snippets of 
information that were even 

1499
01:29:11,840 --> 01:29:16,280
useful for us to hear and not 
allowing Lori to take the 

1500
01:29:16,280 --> 01:29:20,160
narrative away, instead telling 
that part of the story through 

1501
01:29:20,160 --> 01:29:22,080
Colby's eyes. 
And I really appreciated that 

1502
01:29:22,080 --> 01:29:26,040
they did that. 
Can I can I say a couple other 

1503
01:29:26,080 --> 01:29:26,880
things? 
Please learn. 

1504
01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:29,960
Megan. 
Yeah, that was. 

1505
01:29:30,240 --> 01:29:32,680
I agree with Megan. 
I didn't know that people 

1506
01:29:32,680 --> 01:29:34,640
thought that. 
They thought maybe Keith was 

1507
01:29:34,640 --> 01:29:37,640
manipulated. 
Absolutely not. 

1508
01:29:38,720 --> 01:29:40,240
Yeah. 
Keith is a smart man. 

1509
01:29:40,600 --> 01:29:45,720
And I also agree with Megan 
where she says that they ended 

1510
01:29:45,720 --> 01:29:47,520
up not giving her platform. 
And I actually said that, too, 

1511
01:29:47,520 --> 01:29:50,600
You know, did I want for, like, 
selfish reasons, to see 90 

1512
01:29:50,600 --> 01:29:53,240
minutes of Lori Valo talking to 
Keith Morrison? 

1513
01:29:53,240 --> 01:29:54,880
Yeah. 
But in the end, yeah, I'm sure 

1514
01:29:54,880 --> 01:29:59,320
that Lori is very upset that she
didn't get those 90 minutes in. 

1515
01:30:00,880 --> 01:30:03,360
There was one thing that I 
didn't like that Keith did. 

1516
01:30:04,040 --> 01:30:09,400
There was a moment where Lori 
said, I thought we were friends,

1517
01:30:09,400 --> 01:30:10,640
Keith. 
I thought we were friends. 

1518
01:30:10,640 --> 01:30:14,080
Like, she's clearly pushing him 
and putting the questions back 

1519
01:30:14,080 --> 01:30:16,840
on him, right? 
Like he's asking them questions 

1520
01:30:16,840 --> 01:30:19,960
and she's sort of twisting and 
asking the questions back. 

1521
01:30:19,960 --> 01:30:22,040
And then he goes, yeah, we're 
friends. 

1522
01:30:22,040 --> 01:30:23,840
Or I can't remember what he 
says, but he kind of implies her

1523
01:30:23,840 --> 01:30:27,560
friends that disappointed me. 
Like, I don't, I think he should

1524
01:30:27,560 --> 01:30:28,840
have put the question back on 
her. 

1525
01:30:28,840 --> 01:30:30,520
Like, well, do you think we're 
friends? 

1526
01:30:30,720 --> 01:30:32,640
I mean, I don't know. 
He doesn't have to necessarily 

1527
01:30:32,640 --> 01:30:37,720
say we're not friends. 
Back off, you know, but I don't 

1528
01:30:37,720 --> 01:30:39,480
think he should have said like, 
yeah, we're friends because 

1529
01:30:39,480 --> 01:30:44,800
that's that's not true. 
And I think he could have gotten

1530
01:30:44,800 --> 01:30:47,920
more control of the interview if
you just put that question back 

1531
01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:49,200
on her. 
Well, do you think we're 

1532
01:30:49,240 --> 01:30:50,960
friends? 
You know, what are we thinking? 

1533
01:30:51,880 --> 01:30:53,680
I think that would have been a 
good moment. 

1534
01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:56,200
I didn't appreciate that he kind
of claimed that he was friends 

1535
01:30:56,200 --> 01:31:00,600
with her. 
I agree with that somewhat, 

1536
01:31:00,600 --> 01:31:05,120
although I do think what's 
interesting is that narcissistic

1537
01:31:05,120 --> 01:31:08,160
people are actually really easy 
to manipulate. 

1538
01:31:08,280 --> 01:31:11,600
If you give them what they want,
then they're going to continue, 

1539
01:31:11,880 --> 01:31:15,000
you know, exposing themselves 
and exposing their manipulation.

1540
01:31:15,000 --> 01:31:17,760
So maybe Keith was doing that 
just in an effort to say, sure, 

1541
01:31:17,760 --> 01:31:20,360
Lori, we're friends. 
You can tell me anything, you 

1542
01:31:20,360 --> 01:31:22,880
know. 
But I do agree, I think I think 

1543
01:31:22,880 --> 01:31:25,800
it would have been interesting 
to have him put that back on her

1544
01:31:26,080 --> 01:31:27,200
and say, well, what do you 
think? 

1545
01:31:27,200 --> 01:31:29,080
Do you think we're friends? 
I think that would have been a 

1546
01:31:29,080 --> 01:31:31,800
little sneakier. 
But also also I want to address 

1547
01:31:31,800 --> 01:31:34,400
people saying that they're 
disappointed in Keith for saying

1548
01:31:34,400 --> 01:31:38,040
that they that he actually liked
Lori at the end of this 

1549
01:31:38,040 --> 01:31:41,240
interview. 
I want to say that I think what 

1550
01:31:41,240 --> 01:31:43,160
Keith was trying to express 
there. 

1551
01:31:43,160 --> 01:31:45,640
And again, now I'm putting words
in someone else's mouth or 

1552
01:31:45,640 --> 01:31:47,640
interpreting, you know, 
interpreting what they're 

1553
01:31:47,640 --> 01:31:50,840
saying. 
But I think he had a respect for

1554
01:31:50,840 --> 01:31:54,240
her like a boxer has a respect 
for a sparring partner. 

1555
01:31:54,720 --> 01:31:57,960
I think he appreciated that. 
She does have an intellect. 

1556
01:31:57,960 --> 01:31:59,840
People like to say that Lori's 
dumb. 

1557
01:31:59,840 --> 01:32:02,760
She's not dumb. 
She's not book smart, right? 

1558
01:32:02,760 --> 01:32:05,720
She's not super educated, but 
she certainly is not dumb. 

1559
01:32:06,000 --> 01:32:10,480
She has the intelligence of 
knowing how to manipulate 

1560
01:32:10,480 --> 01:32:12,000
people. 
It's a certain type of 

1561
01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:14,000
intelligence. 
She knows how to read people. 

1562
01:32:14,360 --> 01:32:17,640
She knows how to say what people
want to hear in a certain way. 

1563
01:32:17,880 --> 01:32:20,840
She knows how to turn the 
conversation in a certain way. 

1564
01:32:20,840 --> 01:32:24,480
She knows how to, you know, 
answer a question without 

1565
01:32:24,480 --> 01:32:27,360
actually answering it. 
That's a certain type of 

1566
01:32:27,360 --> 01:32:29,160
intelligence. 
So I think that's all Keith was 

1567
01:32:29,160 --> 01:32:32,160
saying was that, you know, after
meeting her and talking with 

1568
01:32:32,160 --> 01:32:37,840
her, that he had a certain level
of, you know, not not like as in

1569
01:32:37,840 --> 01:32:42,080
I enjoy spending time with her, 
but I liked that she had some 

1570
01:32:42,080 --> 01:32:44,040
intelligence. 
She had some intellect. 

1571
01:32:44,040 --> 01:32:47,680
And there's something there was 
something there for him to work 

1572
01:32:47,680 --> 01:32:51,240
with, not necessarily that like 
he he likes or enjoys or thinks 

1573
01:32:51,240 --> 01:32:56,200
she's a good person. 
I, I agree with understanding 

1574
01:32:56,200 --> 01:32:57,720
how you like someone. 
I think that's actually really 

1575
01:32:57,720 --> 01:32:59,440
important thing to point out 
because I've actually said 

1576
01:32:59,440 --> 01:33:02,080
myself, I was like, you know, 
Flora was in my ward. 

1577
01:33:02,080 --> 01:33:04,680
I probably would have been 
friends with her, friends with 

1578
01:33:04,680 --> 01:33:07,200
her and her sister Summer, and 
really like them. 

1579
01:33:07,560 --> 01:33:09,720
Chad Daybell. 
Never, never. 

1580
01:33:10,440 --> 01:33:12,040
Absolutely not. 
There would have been no 

1581
01:33:12,040 --> 01:33:16,120
redeeming quality about Chad 
Daybell that attracted to me to 

1582
01:33:16,240 --> 01:33:17,880
want to be his friend 
whatsoever. 

1583
01:33:18,160 --> 01:33:20,760
Lori. 
Yeah, I think we probably would 

1584
01:33:20,760 --> 01:33:23,800
have done lunch, you know, 
maybe, you know, gone on a girls

1585
01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:26,840
trip one week and I've been 
like, OK, like I I can see right

1586
01:33:26,840 --> 01:33:29,560
people liking her. 
So I think you're right with 

1587
01:33:29,560 --> 01:33:30,600
that. 
Yeah. 

1588
01:33:30,760 --> 01:33:32,200
Yeah. 
And I want to point out again 

1589
01:33:32,200 --> 01:33:34,240
that I I don't think that Keith 
should have said that they 

1590
01:33:34,240 --> 01:33:36,160
weren't friends. 
I understand the narcissistic 

1591
01:33:36,160 --> 01:33:37,520
ego. 
I just think it would have 

1592
01:33:37,520 --> 01:33:39,840
gotten a more interesting 
response out of saying, well, do

1593
01:33:39,840 --> 01:33:41,880
you think we're friends? 
Maybe, maybe that's I I just 

1594
01:33:41,880 --> 01:33:44,360
want to know like how she saw 
it, you know, so. 

1595
01:33:45,160 --> 01:33:47,600
Corona, let's get you in here. 
Anything you would have asked? 

1596
01:33:47,600 --> 01:33:49,360
Do you think you did a good job 
overall? 

1597
01:33:49,640 --> 01:33:53,560
Yeah, I think, I mean, how, 
again, how I started this 

1598
01:33:54,600 --> 01:33:57,800
episode was agreeing with 
everyone that I think he's super

1599
01:33:57,800 --> 01:34:01,000
talented. 
He's did a generally really good

1600
01:34:01,000 --> 01:34:04,920
job. 
I think I feel kind of strongly 

1601
01:34:04,920 --> 01:34:08,760
that the thing that was missing 
there is a deep understanding 

1602
01:34:08,760 --> 01:34:15,440
of, of Mormonism and a deep of 
understanding of how to talk to 

1603
01:34:15,440 --> 01:34:22,600
people who have deeply rooted, 
you know, religious beliefs, 

1604
01:34:22,600 --> 01:34:24,640
especially those kinds of 
beliefs. 

1605
01:34:24,640 --> 01:34:27,120
What would you have asked her? 
I could think of some things I 

1606
01:34:27,120 --> 01:34:28,920
would have asked her, but what 
would you have asked her in 

1607
01:34:28,920 --> 01:34:33,320
terms of her Mormonism, her 
beliefs, doctrine, theology, 

1608
01:34:33,320 --> 01:34:36,960
history, that sort of thing? 
I think more than more than what

1609
01:34:36,960 --> 01:34:40,480
I would have asked versus what 
he didn't ask, I think I would 

1610
01:34:40,480 --> 01:34:45,440
have, you know, my opinion is 
that I probably would have 

1611
01:34:45,440 --> 01:34:47,360
framed the interview 
differently. 

1612
01:34:47,760 --> 01:34:50,560
So, for example, instead of 
coming here to try to corner 

1613
01:34:50,560 --> 01:34:57,680
her, I would come to her and 
say, look, we're trying to, we 

1614
01:34:57,680 --> 01:35:01,000
want to tell your story. 
But the people that are watching

1615
01:35:01,000 --> 01:35:04,560
this know what the media has 
said so far about the facts. 

1616
01:35:04,560 --> 01:35:08,280
You know, they under they, they 
know what the court already 

1617
01:35:08,280 --> 01:35:10,880
determined. 
They know what the jury said. 

1618
01:35:10,880 --> 01:35:16,080
They've seen the evidence. 
So I want you to give your 

1619
01:35:16,080 --> 01:35:19,240
version of the facts based on 
that, that evidence instead of 

1620
01:35:19,240 --> 01:35:22,480
Keith coming here saying, you 
know, but the facts are that 

1621
01:35:22,480 --> 01:35:25,280
those are not the facts, you 
know, kind of saying these are 

1622
01:35:25,480 --> 01:35:28,520
the facts that people know or 
you know, the, the, the evidence

1623
01:35:28,520 --> 01:35:32,880
that people know about. 
Let's talk and I want to ask you

1624
01:35:32,880 --> 01:35:36,520
about how you would you would 
explain it so people can 

1625
01:35:36,520 --> 01:35:40,040
understand your point of view. 
And I could have opened a little

1626
01:35:40,040 --> 01:35:46,360
bit more of not so much of A 
barrier, like I'm here to, you 

1627
01:35:46,360 --> 01:35:47,720
know, tell you my version of 
things. 

1628
01:35:48,040 --> 01:35:53,840
It could have maybe avoided her 
ranting about a lot of things 

1629
01:35:54,000 --> 01:35:57,920
and not really answering the 
questions if it would have been 

1630
01:35:57,920 --> 01:36:00,880
approached as like, look, this 
is a a moment, a time for you to

1631
01:36:00,880 --> 01:36:04,840
redeem yourself, to tell your 
version of the story and to 

1632
01:36:05,600 --> 01:36:07,560
explain your religious beliefs 
to people. 

1633
01:36:07,560 --> 01:36:10,640
So I see, I see. 
I'm going to bring up some of 

1634
01:36:10,640 --> 01:36:14,520
the facts, not because I want to
corner you, but because I want 

1635
01:36:14,520 --> 01:36:18,600
to, I, I want the viewers, you 
know, and, and. 

1636
01:36:18,640 --> 01:36:20,760
Hear your beliefs. 
Yeah, exactly. 

1637
01:36:21,280 --> 01:36:23,360
Got it? 
All right, let me ask you all 

1638
01:36:23,360 --> 01:36:24,880
some. 
Let me share with you all some 

1639
01:36:24,880 --> 01:36:28,800
of the parts that were either 
concerning or curious or 

1640
01:36:28,800 --> 01:36:32,240
troubling to me. 
So one was this vision that they

1641
01:36:32,240 --> 01:36:39,280
painted of Alex, Lori's brother,
taking JJ outside the the night 

1642
01:36:39,280 --> 01:36:42,960
he was murdered and then 
bringing him back, quote, 

1643
01:36:42,960 --> 01:36:47,160
asleep. 
Do we know anything about that? 

1644
01:36:47,160 --> 01:36:51,360
Do we have theories about 
whether he would have harmed JJ 

1645
01:36:52,160 --> 01:36:55,800
while he took him out and 
brought him back after he'd 

1646
01:36:55,800 --> 01:36:59,800
already passed away or whether 
whatever violence may have 

1647
01:36:59,800 --> 01:37:04,000
happened, presumably by Alex 
would have happened after he 

1648
01:37:04,000 --> 01:37:07,440
brought him back his sleep. 
But just that whole idea of Alex

1649
01:37:07,440 --> 01:37:12,600
being with him, taking him in 
and out as if he's asleep, was 

1650
01:37:12,600 --> 01:37:15,200
really chilling to me. 
What do we know about that? 

1651
01:37:17,240 --> 01:37:19,920
Or do we know anything? 
Yeah, No, I think there was a 

1652
01:37:19,920 --> 01:37:23,600
time when Minnie speculated 
whether or not JJ was already 

1653
01:37:23,600 --> 01:37:27,160
passed at this moment, was he 
really asleep or was he dead? 

1654
01:37:27,240 --> 01:37:31,520
I think that the early on in the
case that was people wondered 

1655
01:37:31,520 --> 01:37:35,760
because we we knew that story 
from David Warwick, that that 

1656
01:37:35,760 --> 01:37:38,880
was the last time he and Melanie
Gibbs saw JJ. 

1657
01:37:39,600 --> 01:37:45,160
But as evidence has sort of come
out since then in trial, in 

1658
01:37:45,160 --> 01:37:48,640
testimony, including David 
Warwick and Melanie Gibb being 

1659
01:37:48,640 --> 01:37:52,160
up in the middle of the night at
2, how JJ was found, that he 

1660
01:37:52,160 --> 01:37:57,000
struggled. 
Clearly it seems as if JJ died 

1661
01:37:57,000 --> 01:37:59,640
most likely in the middle of the
night, and that he really was 

1662
01:37:59,640 --> 01:38:03,040
carried up asleep at that moment
and then something horrendous 

1663
01:38:03,040 --> 01:38:07,360
happened hours later. 
OK, got it. 

1664
01:38:07,920 --> 01:38:10,320
And, and, and I'll I'll point 
out too that this is also why 

1665
01:38:10,320 --> 01:38:16,720
people wonder perhaps if Lori 
was around when JJ died, because

1666
01:38:16,920 --> 01:38:22,120
the last known place people saw 
him was being laid asleep in 

1667
01:38:22,120 --> 01:38:26,360
Lori's bedroom. 
So I think that's where people 

1668
01:38:26,360 --> 01:38:32,800
really wonder if she was there. 
Got it. 

1669
01:38:32,800 --> 01:38:35,600
And y'all jump in if I don't 
have to ask you each to comment 

1670
01:38:35,600 --> 01:38:37,240
on everything. 
Please just jump in if you've 

1671
01:38:37,240 --> 01:38:38,600
got anything else you want to 
add. 

1672
01:38:39,320 --> 01:38:43,760
I was disturbed when Lori was 
talking about her daughter's 

1673
01:38:43,760 --> 01:38:46,160
death. 
Like life is like college, you 

1674
01:38:46,160 --> 01:38:49,960
know, You go to college and then
you come home from college and 

1675
01:38:49,960 --> 01:38:53,400
life's that way too. 
Tylie came down to this earth, 

1676
01:38:53,400 --> 01:38:54,800
but then she went back to 
heaven. 

1677
01:38:54,800 --> 01:38:56,880
And that's kind of what life's 
all about. 

1678
01:38:56,880 --> 01:39:00,040
You come and you go. 
It felt a little bit flippant to

1679
01:39:00,040 --> 01:39:01,480
me. 
Did did any of y'all? 

1680
01:39:02,240 --> 01:39:06,920
That was really triggering to me
just because I've always had a 

1681
01:39:06,920 --> 01:39:12,000
problem with the way a lot of 
members of the church or, or, or

1682
01:39:12,000 --> 01:39:16,400
the church, the Mormon church 
encourages people to see death 

1683
01:39:16,520 --> 01:39:21,800
or, for example, funerals, you 
know, like, and all the OR most 

1684
01:39:21,800 --> 01:39:25,360
of the Mormon funerals I've 
gone, they're mostly about, you 

1685
01:39:25,360 --> 01:39:28,800
know, talking about how it 
doesn't really matter because 

1686
01:39:28,800 --> 01:39:30,520
we're going to see this person 
again. 

1687
01:39:30,880 --> 01:39:32,680
We know that we're sealed to 
them. 

1688
01:39:33,040 --> 01:39:36,320
So like there, there's not a lot
of grieving, there's not a lot 

1689
01:39:36,320 --> 01:39:41,200
of actually thoughtfulness about
what what has happened. 

1690
01:39:41,560 --> 01:39:46,440
And a lot of that sadness seems 
to be, you know, if, if people 

1691
01:39:46,560 --> 01:39:51,280
sometimes show sadness and their
Mormon, they can feel guilt for,

1692
01:39:51,280 --> 01:39:53,600
you know, maybe they're don't 
really believe they're going to 

1693
01:39:53,600 --> 01:39:58,040
see this person again. 
And and that Lori talking about 

1694
01:39:58,560 --> 01:40:02,360
life and death in that way kind 
of reminded me of that. 

1695
01:40:03,240 --> 01:40:05,360
Especially when it's her own 
child. 

1696
01:40:06,280 --> 01:40:11,080
Like I, I think all of us have 
experienced death of a loved 1 

1697
01:40:11,080 --> 01:40:14,200
and in some way or another. 
Even my parents who are 90 who 

1698
01:40:14,200 --> 01:40:17,160
are believing Mormons when asked
them about their own death, 

1699
01:40:17,160 --> 01:40:18,280
they're like I don't want to 
die. 

1700
01:40:19,080 --> 01:40:24,640
So like, who talks about some of
their closest loved ones as if 

1701
01:40:24,640 --> 01:40:27,160
like, Oh yeah, they come to go. 
That's just kind of what happens

1702
01:40:27,160 --> 01:40:29,360
in life. 
It's it was very dark and 

1703
01:40:29,360 --> 01:40:35,160
chilling to me. 
So any other any other comments 

1704
01:40:35,160 --> 01:40:36,400
there? 
Should I go on? 

1705
01:40:37,720 --> 01:40:42,040
Yeah, I just, I agree. 
I mean, I think Gerardo's, you 

1706
01:40:42,040 --> 01:40:46,280
know, spot on as, you know, 
being being raised Mormon and 

1707
01:40:46,280 --> 01:40:49,840
believing so heavily in an 
afterlife that is supposed to be

1708
01:40:51,480 --> 01:40:53,920
so exponentially better than 
this life. 

1709
01:40:54,320 --> 01:40:58,760
It's something that we look 
forward to as sort of our reward

1710
01:40:58,760 --> 01:41:01,000
for enduring the trials of this 
life. 

1711
01:41:01,000 --> 01:41:05,680
And I think that's where it, it 
is a little bit it, it's easier 

1712
01:41:05,680 --> 01:41:10,080
to be dismissive of the death 
experience and to, you know, 

1713
01:41:10,080 --> 01:41:14,200
sort of not see it as something 
tragic, but to see it as 

1714
01:41:14,200 --> 01:41:18,120
victorious. 
That being said, to have Lori 

1715
01:41:18,120 --> 01:41:21,640
talk about the death of her 
daughter, which she caused, 

1716
01:41:21,960 --> 01:41:26,160
which we can say cuz she's been 
convicted of it now is 

1717
01:41:26,160 --> 01:41:30,160
incredibly disrespectful. 
It's horrible, it's horrific. 

1718
01:41:30,160 --> 01:41:35,280
I don't have enough words to say
how evil and and disgusting that

1719
01:41:35,280 --> 01:41:38,880
is. 
Yeah, Amen. 

1720
01:41:39,280 --> 01:41:47,240
OK, the next part that that was 
kind of disturbing to me was, 

1721
01:41:48,560 --> 01:41:50,720
was Tammy. 
And I've already kind of 

1722
01:41:50,720 --> 01:41:54,080
mentioned this, but Tammy's 
saying sorry, Laurie's saying 

1723
01:41:54,080 --> 01:41:57,400
Tammy loves me and I love her 
and we're going to be together 

1724
01:41:57,400 --> 01:41:59,600
for eternities. 
Like I was trying to put myself 

1725
01:42:00,080 --> 01:42:05,280
in the shoes of Tammy's 
children, of Tammy's loved ones 

1726
01:42:05,600 --> 01:42:10,920
and just how chilling and dark 
it would be for them to hear the

1727
01:42:10,920 --> 01:42:14,520
woman who likely contributed to 
the murder of their sister, 

1728
01:42:14,880 --> 01:42:19,120
daughter, mom, etcetera, say 
we're besties and she visits me 

1729
01:42:19,120 --> 01:42:23,000
all the time and we're we're 
besties for the eternities. 

1730
01:42:23,640 --> 01:42:27,360
Super dark to me. 
Again, jump in. 

1731
01:42:27,360 --> 01:42:29,640
Or I can just keep reading 
reading these off. 

1732
01:42:30,120 --> 01:42:32,040
You know, I wasn't saying 
fortunately, I don't know if 

1733
01:42:32,080 --> 01:42:36,000
it's Tammy's children that will 
be most upset by that because I 

1734
01:42:36,000 --> 01:42:39,680
think they want to believe that 
they're the mother did die from 

1735
01:42:39,680 --> 01:42:41,920
natural causes. 
I don't, I can't speak for all 

1736
01:42:41,920 --> 01:42:45,280
of them, but I I can speak that.
I know that some still believe 

1737
01:42:45,280 --> 01:42:49,880
that. 
And so to think that, I mean, 

1738
01:42:49,880 --> 01:42:53,080
I'm not saying it doesn't upset 
them, but sometimes I'm upset 

1739
01:42:53,080 --> 01:42:55,760
that, you know, these. 
I think that it might not upset 

1740
01:42:55,760 --> 01:43:00,040
all of them, but who it does 
upset is Tammy, the Douglas 

1741
01:43:00,040 --> 01:43:05,280
family, the extended family of 
Tammy, you know, her, Tammy's 

1742
01:43:05,280 --> 01:43:09,760
mother, who passed away between 
Laurie's trial and Chad's trial.

1743
01:43:09,760 --> 01:43:14,560
And that family cannot imagine 
her. 

1744
01:43:14,560 --> 01:43:20,640
Her aunt Vicki Hoban, who I am 
close to Tam, is so angry that 

1745
01:43:20,640 --> 01:43:25,280
she would ever, ever utter such 
things about her niece. 

1746
01:43:25,920 --> 01:43:29,200
Yeah, I can't imagine that, 
right. 

1747
01:43:29,200 --> 01:43:31,240
It's just, again, it's just 
twisting the knife. 

1748
01:43:31,240 --> 01:43:35,040
It's just like, why? 
So it, it is very upsetting. 

1749
01:43:35,040 --> 01:43:38,800
It's as upsetting as you, you 
think that it is. 

1750
01:43:38,800 --> 01:43:42,720
And then I want to point out, as
far as what I think she is 

1751
01:43:42,720 --> 01:43:47,200
actually saying, I think she is 
implying my personal belief that

1752
01:43:47,200 --> 01:43:50,720
there's some polygamy involved. 
I do believe that Lori might 

1753
01:43:50,720 --> 01:43:54,600
think they're going to be sister
wives one day, so. 

1754
01:43:56,560 --> 01:43:59,800
Yeah, I agree with that, Lauren.
And I also think that Lori 

1755
01:43:59,800 --> 01:44:03,760
talking about Tammy being a 
friend, you know, of course it's

1756
01:44:03,760 --> 01:44:06,800
disgusting and horrible. 
I think it's another way for 

1757
01:44:06,800 --> 01:44:09,320
Lori to deflect attention away 
from herself. 

1758
01:44:09,320 --> 01:44:13,120
You know, if people believe that
Tammy and Lori are friends, then

1759
01:44:13,120 --> 01:44:15,720
Lori couldn't possibly have 
anything to do with Tammy's 

1760
01:44:15,720 --> 01:44:17,680
death. 
I think that's just part of that

1761
01:44:17,680 --> 01:44:20,400
as well. 
I also want to point this out 

1762
01:44:20,640 --> 01:44:24,920
because we forget sometimes 
about Julie Rowe and how big of 

1763
01:44:24,920 --> 01:44:28,440
a piece she played in this 
before, but how close she was to

1764
01:44:28,440 --> 01:44:32,640
Chad Daybell and to Tammy. 
But she too said the same thing 

1765
01:44:32,640 --> 01:44:35,560
and it's despicable. 
After the investigation had 

1766
01:44:35,560 --> 01:44:39,400
started to the deaths of Tammy 
Daybell and the missing 

1767
01:44:39,400 --> 01:44:43,680
children, Julie Rowe got on her 
live and said, I know that the 

1768
01:44:43,680 --> 01:44:45,280
kids are OK because I've seen 
them. 

1769
01:44:45,280 --> 01:44:48,520
And I know that Tammy is just 
fine and having a great reunion 

1770
01:44:48,520 --> 01:44:50,600
because she visits me. 
She's an Angel. 

1771
01:44:50,600 --> 01:44:53,440
Tammy de Bell just adores me. 
She comes and visits me. 

1772
01:44:53,600 --> 01:44:56,000
She told me she's OK. 
She's totally chill. 

1773
01:44:56,000 --> 01:44:58,560
And you know, now here in the 
Celestial Kingdom and she's 

1774
01:44:58,640 --> 01:45:02,560
she's so OK. 
I mean, this, this idea is just 

1775
01:45:02,560 --> 01:45:04,240
gross. 
I just want to point out the 

1776
01:45:04,240 --> 01:45:07,960
like, what happened to people 
speaking for dead people, 

1777
01:45:07,960 --> 01:45:09,560
especially when there's an 
investigation going on. 

1778
01:45:09,560 --> 01:45:11,520
They might have been murdered 
and and she was murdered. 

1779
01:45:11,520 --> 01:45:15,160
Like, I just, I don't know. 
It's like when a dead person 

1780
01:45:15,160 --> 01:45:17,520
can't speak for themselves and 
we're speaking for them. 

1781
01:45:17,520 --> 01:45:22,440
It's just, it's just wild. 
But a lot of people try to speak

1782
01:45:22,920 --> 01:45:26,240
for Tammy Dabell, who weren't 
her family after she died, to 

1783
01:45:26,440 --> 01:45:28,600
claim that she wasn't murdered. 
She was OK. 

1784
01:45:28,600 --> 01:45:31,440
And that's just this whole other
aspect of this story that's just

1785
01:45:31,440 --> 01:45:35,360
sort of like. 
Yeah, there's a there's a mutual

1786
01:45:35,360 --> 01:45:39,080
friend we have Lauren, whose son
died a few years back. 

1787
01:45:39,920 --> 01:45:44,720
And I was at the wake or the 
Shiva or the, you know, funeral.

1788
01:45:44,720 --> 01:45:49,080
And I would watch people come up
and say, your son visited me 

1789
01:45:49,080 --> 01:45:54,720
and, and he wanted, you know, me
to let you know that he's OK and

1790
01:45:54,720 --> 01:45:57,360
you don't need to worry and 
grieve about him. 

1791
01:45:57,360 --> 01:46:01,000
And I'm just thinking, on the 
one hand, I guess that's sweet 

1792
01:46:01,000 --> 01:46:04,040
and nice. 
On the other hand, if a son can 

1793
01:46:04,040 --> 01:46:08,320
visit anyone after he's died, 
shouldn't he visit the parents 

1794
01:46:08,320 --> 01:46:13,400
and not have random people from 
the funeral come up and say your

1795
01:46:13,400 --> 01:46:16,520
son is sending you love? 
Exactly. 

1796
01:46:16,720 --> 01:46:18,800
And also don't tell me about my 
dead relative. 

1797
01:46:18,800 --> 01:46:21,960
Actually, I would like to know 
that my, my dead relative is 

1798
01:46:21,960 --> 01:46:24,840
maybe sad and they're missing me
and maybe they're not. 

1799
01:46:24,840 --> 01:46:26,840
OK. 
I, I just, yeah, just don't even

1800
01:46:26,840 --> 01:46:27,600
go there. 
Don't. 

1801
01:46:28,160 --> 01:46:32,280
Don't even tell me what my 
deceased loved one is saying. 

1802
01:46:33,040 --> 01:46:34,760
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

1803
01:46:34,760 --> 01:46:38,840
And then Julie Rowe had to go 
back and recant, supposedly what

1804
01:46:38,840 --> 01:46:41,560
she saw because she said that 
she saw the kids safe. 

1805
01:46:41,840 --> 01:46:45,640
She described, you know, a 
beautiful room with palm trees. 

1806
01:46:45,840 --> 01:46:48,640
And I think she was trying to 
imply that she saw them in 

1807
01:46:48,640 --> 01:46:51,280
Hawaii. 
And then, of course, she had to 

1808
01:46:51,280 --> 01:46:55,600
later come back and say, well, 
you know, I wasn't exactly sure 

1809
01:46:55,600 --> 01:46:58,720
of exactly where they were, but 
that's what I saw. 

1810
01:46:58,720 --> 01:47:00,760
And it could have been this 
other thing, too. 

1811
01:47:00,760 --> 01:47:04,840
So, you know, let's not put any 
stock by what Julie Rowe 

1812
01:47:04,840 --> 01:47:10,080
predicted. 
Yeah, so the next the next part 

1813
01:47:10,080 --> 01:47:13,760
that was kind of just mind 
blowing to me was when Keith 

1814
01:47:13,760 --> 01:47:19,760
calls her out for purchasing the
wedding bands before Tammy's 

1815
01:47:19,760 --> 01:47:22,720
death. 
And her reaction was, get your 

1816
01:47:22,720 --> 01:47:26,280
facts straight, Keith. 
You know, the rings were 

1817
01:47:26,280 --> 01:47:31,120
originally bought, you know, for
Alex and Zulema and then we use 

1818
01:47:31,120 --> 01:47:32,640
them later. 
But you don't know what you're 

1819
01:47:32,640 --> 01:47:35,760
talking about, Keith. 
I don't, I don't mean to be 

1820
01:47:35,760 --> 01:47:40,520
repetitive there, but that was 
it's just if there if there, 

1821
01:47:40,520 --> 01:47:42,960
there were so many moments where
they were just absolutely 

1822
01:47:42,960 --> 01:47:45,800
busted. 
And that's that's one of them. 

1823
01:47:46,320 --> 01:47:49,360
But it it does just speak to 
that just willingness to just 

1824
01:47:49,360 --> 01:47:52,040
say anything. 
And it does call into question 

1825
01:47:52,040 --> 01:47:57,240
her sincerity about claiming to 
be visited by angels because 

1826
01:47:57,240 --> 01:48:00,160
there's just no way those rings 
were intended for Alex and 

1827
01:48:00,160 --> 01:48:02,680
Zulema. 
She's making that up, right? 

1828
01:48:04,640 --> 01:48:09,960
The ring size for for Chad I 
doubt is any similar to like 

1829
01:48:10,400 --> 01:48:14,120
Alex ring size. 
That's a good point. 

1830
01:48:14,160 --> 01:48:17,080
Just yeah. 
Chad has very, very dainty 

1831
01:48:17,080 --> 01:48:22,280
hands, as we saw in his trial. 
And Alex's hands were not dainty

1832
01:48:22,280 --> 01:48:25,720
for sure. 
And and that that was a moment, 

1833
01:48:25,720 --> 01:48:29,280
I think where we saw Lori's mask
slip a little bit because she 

1834
01:48:29,280 --> 01:48:32,760
does get angry and combative and
defensive when she's called out 

1835
01:48:32,760 --> 01:48:34,880
on this lie. 
You know that he's got the 

1836
01:48:34,880 --> 01:48:37,120
facts. 
He's yes, we have the Amazon 

1837
01:48:37,120 --> 01:48:40,200
history, we have the dates. 
We know that you received the 

1838
01:48:40,200 --> 01:48:42,440
rings. 
There's nothing that 

1839
01:48:42,560 --> 01:48:46,400
manipulative people hate more 
than being confronted with an 

1840
01:48:46,400 --> 01:48:49,680
absolute truth. 
And so of course, you know, I 

1841
01:48:49,680 --> 01:48:54,520
think she had this story ready 
made probably, although I I 

1842
01:48:54,520 --> 01:48:57,200
wouldn't put it past her to be 
able to kind of like make this 

1843
01:48:57,200 --> 01:48:59,720
up on the fly. 
But I do think this probably was

1844
01:48:59,720 --> 01:49:02,080
already in her mind. 
This this dumb story about, oh, 

1845
01:49:02,080 --> 01:49:05,360
that was for Alex and Zulema. 
Never mind the fact that they 

1846
01:49:05,360 --> 01:49:09,960
didn't even tell Alex and Zulema
to marry each other until much, 

1847
01:49:09,960 --> 01:49:13,960
much later on. 
So, you know, obviously it's not

1848
01:49:13,960 --> 01:49:15,720
a real thing. 
She totally made it up. 

1849
01:49:15,720 --> 01:49:18,960
But you know, this is, this is 
what liars and manipulators do. 

1850
01:49:20,160 --> 01:49:24,960
Yeah, she, she has. 
She had a similar reaction on 

1851
01:49:24,960 --> 01:49:28,400
one of her calls with Melanie 
Gibb, when Melanie kind of 

1852
01:49:28,680 --> 01:49:33,840
catches her on a lie or says it 
confronts her about lying and 

1853
01:49:34,200 --> 01:49:38,600
she kind of storms and and and 
basically hangs up. 

1854
01:49:39,840 --> 01:49:43,040
I don't remember exactly the 
context, but I do remember the 

1855
01:49:43,040 --> 01:49:45,960
reaction. 
Do you want to talk about it? 

1856
01:49:48,000 --> 01:49:50,800
Yeah. 
So, you know, Melanie calls Chad

1857
01:49:50,800 --> 01:49:54,200
and Lori and and confronts them 
and says, you know, why did you 

1858
01:49:54,200 --> 01:49:56,400
tell the police that JJ was with
me? 

1859
01:49:56,880 --> 01:49:59,960
You know, that was that was 
really, it makes me look really 

1860
01:49:59,960 --> 01:50:01,960
weird. 
It makes me look, you know, like

1861
01:50:01,960 --> 01:50:05,680
I did something wrong. 
And, you know, then Melanie goes

1862
01:50:05,680 --> 01:50:09,320
on to basically call Lori a Cora
whore. 

1863
01:50:09,640 --> 01:50:12,880
And then Lori says, are you 
trying to rest the scriptures? 

1864
01:50:12,880 --> 01:50:17,480
Are you trying to tell me, you 
know, what what to do or tell me

1865
01:50:17,480 --> 01:50:19,800
that I'm the one who's 
manipulating or lying or 

1866
01:50:19,800 --> 01:50:23,600
whatever really calls her out? 
And yeah, they end up angry with

1867
01:50:23,600 --> 01:50:26,080
each other. 
But what is so interesting to me

1868
01:50:26,080 --> 01:50:30,280
about that phone call is that 
the entire time you can tell 

1869
01:50:30,280 --> 01:50:34,080
Lori's getting upset and angry, 
but the whole time both of them 

1870
01:50:34,080 --> 01:50:37,160
are saying, love you so much, I 
love you so much. 

1871
01:50:37,160 --> 01:50:39,360
Yeah, I love you. 
And I just, I love you and I 

1872
01:50:39,360 --> 01:50:42,080
just want you to be right. 
And I just want things to be 

1873
01:50:42,080 --> 01:50:44,480
good between us, you know? 
I don't want you to be mad at 

1874
01:50:44,480 --> 01:50:46,200
me. 
I'm not mad at you. 

1875
01:50:46,200 --> 01:50:49,080
I love you. 
And it's it's super triggering 

1876
01:50:49,080 --> 01:50:51,800
because this is what happens in 
my family all the time. 

1877
01:50:51,840 --> 01:50:55,600
It's like I'm going to call you 
out for doing something wrong. 

1878
01:50:55,600 --> 01:50:59,000
And you know, I'm not trying to 
offend you or upset you because 

1879
01:50:59,000 --> 01:51:01,560
I love you so much, but I just 
want you to know that I think 

1880
01:51:01,560 --> 01:51:04,520
this thing about you, it's just 
this is it. 

1881
01:51:04,520 --> 01:51:09,080
It's just one of those tactics 
of like we, we don't know how to

1882
01:51:09,080 --> 01:51:13,440
handle conflict. 
We don't know how to to talk to 

1883
01:51:13,480 --> 01:51:17,960
each other in a way that holds 
someone accountable for their 

1884
01:51:17,960 --> 01:51:21,760
behavior. 
And that's why Lori and Alex got

1885
01:51:21,760 --> 01:51:25,720
away with what they got away 
with for their entire lives, 

1886
01:51:25,720 --> 01:51:29,280
because nobody ever had a 
conversation with them where 

1887
01:51:29,280 --> 01:51:32,880
they held them accountable for 
their actions, for their words, 

1888
01:51:32,880 --> 01:51:35,840
for their lies, for their 
manipulation, for anything that 

1889
01:51:35,840 --> 01:51:37,960
they did. 
Our family doesn't know how to 

1890
01:51:37,960 --> 01:51:42,120
have those conversations in a 
real and respectful way. 

1891
01:51:42,400 --> 01:51:45,920
They don't know how to 
communicate about conflict. 

1892
01:51:46,040 --> 01:51:50,840
And so you're going to see this 
sort of covering up of like, I'm

1893
01:51:50,840 --> 01:51:52,960
going to tell you this thing, 
but I'm going to say that I love

1894
01:51:52,960 --> 01:51:56,000
you so that you won't be 
offended and upset because there

1895
01:51:56,000 --> 01:52:01,520
is nothing scarier then 
abandonment then having somebody

1896
01:52:01,520 --> 01:52:05,400
not like you or not think well 
of you or not see you in a good 

1897
01:52:05,400 --> 01:52:07,520
light. 
And so that's the most 

1898
01:52:07,520 --> 01:52:09,760
threatening thing. 
And that's that's the thing that

1899
01:52:09,760 --> 01:52:12,880
we're going to try to cover up 
and and try to make sure doesn't

1900
01:52:12,880 --> 01:52:16,600
ever happen is that there's no 
rupture of our relationship. 

1901
01:52:16,600 --> 01:52:18,880
And you still think I'm a good 
person at the end of every 

1902
01:52:18,880 --> 01:52:26,400
conversation? 
Can we go here, Here. 

1903
01:52:26,400 --> 01:52:28,680
Megan, Megan, I, I agree with 
you. 

1904
01:52:29,800 --> 01:52:32,640
I want to just quickly go back 
to the the ring thing. 

1905
01:52:32,680 --> 01:52:34,880
The rings are important too, 
because I, I wish the Dateline, 

1906
01:52:35,360 --> 01:52:37,320
yeah, the rings that they 
purchased on Amazon, because I 

1907
01:52:37,320 --> 01:52:41,760
wish Dayline had brought this up
too, that Lori and Chad didn't 

1908
01:52:41,760 --> 01:52:44,720
just Lori didn't just buy the 
ring, she kept returning them 

1909
01:52:44,720 --> 01:52:48,720
for different sizes too. 
We learned that like they were 

1910
01:52:48,720 --> 01:52:52,480
returned and resized like, you 
know, she she didn't, you know, 

1911
01:52:52,640 --> 01:52:55,840
keep trying these on Alex's 
finger and dilemma's fingers. 

1912
01:52:55,880 --> 01:52:59,480
So they were resizing when I 
think in particular, actually, 

1913
01:52:59,800 --> 01:53:03,600
it was Chad's ring. 
I had to keep getting smaller. 

1914
01:53:04,000 --> 01:53:07,760
So once again, you can't roll a 
tire and his his ring finger 

1915
01:53:07,760 --> 01:53:10,520
just kept getting smaller and 
smaller and and you know what 

1916
01:53:10,520 --> 01:53:14,040
they say. 
So it was clearly Chad's ring, 

1917
01:53:14,120 --> 01:53:18,880
as I just want to point out. 
We just keep wanting to hate on 

1918
01:53:18,880 --> 01:53:22,200
Chad. 
It's the likable you. 

1919
01:53:22,640 --> 01:53:26,320
Know I I think it's OK to hate 
on convicted killers just going 

1920
01:53:26,440 --> 01:53:29,880
to put that out there for. 
Sure, absolutely, absolutely. 

1921
01:53:30,680 --> 01:53:34,920
I put a new poll up. 
First of all, we've got 4400 

1922
01:53:34,920 --> 01:53:37,120
people on this live stream, 
which is great. 

1923
01:53:37,120 --> 01:53:39,760
Great. 
We're really grateful for this 

1924
01:53:39,760 --> 01:53:43,280
audience. 
You know, please, I'm just going

1925
01:53:43,280 --> 01:53:45,960
to keep asking. 
Please subscribe to the channel 

1926
01:53:46,920 --> 01:53:52,040
Mormon Stories along with Hidden
True Crime and of second third 

1927
01:53:52,040 --> 01:53:56,960
verse or midlife revolution. 
Please like this episode and 

1928
01:53:56,960 --> 01:54:00,560
please comment on it because 
that's really going to help us 

1929
01:54:01,600 --> 01:54:04,520
get these stories out and grow 
our respective channels. 

1930
01:54:05,320 --> 01:54:08,360
I put a new poll up and I don't 
know if you all have seen this 

1931
01:54:08,400 --> 01:54:14,920
yet, but the poll basically is 
asking if if Chad and Lori had 

1932
01:54:14,920 --> 01:54:19,320
been Catholic or Presbyterian or
Lutheran, you know, do you think

1933
01:54:19,320 --> 01:54:22,400
this murders, these murders 
would have happened? 

1934
01:54:22,400 --> 01:54:25,920
In other words, you know, did 
these murders happen? 

1935
01:54:26,200 --> 01:54:33,480
Is the Mormonism aspect crucial 
to the story overall and, and to

1936
01:54:33,480 --> 01:54:37,640
the, to the murders? 
So I'm, I'm not going to have us

1937
01:54:37,720 --> 01:54:40,480
answer that because I'm going to
come to that in just a second, 

1938
01:54:40,520 --> 01:54:44,440
but I definitely want to hear 
the audience's feedback. 

1939
01:54:44,440 --> 01:54:50,520
As of now, 400 and 500 people 
have voted. 73% are saying no, 

1940
01:54:51,080 --> 01:54:55,520
the murders would not have 
happened basically if Laurie and

1941
01:54:55,520 --> 01:54:59,640
Chad had been like a basically 
Protestant Christians. 

1942
01:54:59,640 --> 01:55:03,760
In other words, it's the Mormon 
doctrine and theology and 

1943
01:55:03,760 --> 01:55:08,840
culture that were important 
tipping points to these people 

1944
01:55:08,840 --> 01:55:12,280
that clearly had issues actually
becoming murders. 

1945
01:55:13,080 --> 01:55:17,800
So I'm going to let the audience
opine in the chats and with the 

1946
01:55:17,800 --> 01:55:20,320
poll before we as a panel 
discussed that. 

1947
01:55:20,680 --> 01:55:23,200
But I just wanted to put that 
out there as a teaser. 

1948
01:55:23,400 --> 01:55:25,640
Let me go to a couple more 
things that were disturbing to 

1949
01:55:25,640 --> 01:55:29,120
me. 
It was clearly disturbing when 

1950
01:55:29,120 --> 01:55:34,160
the investigator shows up and 
sees Alex and Chad unloading a 

1951
01:55:34,160 --> 01:55:37,760
pickup truck. 
And, you know, he notices that 

1952
01:55:37,760 --> 01:55:44,320
Alex was nervous and he asks 
Chad for Laurie's number. 

1953
01:55:44,800 --> 01:55:47,360
And Chad says he doesn't know 
Lori's number because because 

1954
01:55:47,360 --> 01:55:50,800
the investigators looking for 
Lori's children, that was deeply

1955
01:55:50,800 --> 01:55:53,240
troubling. 
And it makes me feel like they 

1956
01:55:53,240 --> 01:55:57,920
certainly got the verdict right 
with convicting a Chad of 

1957
01:55:58,200 --> 01:56:01,040
murder. 
There was also the, the evidence

1958
01:56:01,040 --> 01:56:04,280
that when when once Lori and 
Chad know that that the 

1959
01:56:04,280 --> 01:56:07,800
investigators are looking for 
the children that Chad calls 

1960
01:56:07,800 --> 01:56:12,800
Melanie and tells her not to 
pick up and that Lori calls 

1961
01:56:12,800 --> 01:56:18,040
Melanie and says that she told 
the investigators that JJ was 

1962
01:56:18,040 --> 01:56:21,960
with her and that Melanie felt 
betrayed. 

1963
01:56:23,120 --> 01:56:27,400
But I, I was curious if y'all 
had reactions to those pieces of

1964
01:56:27,400 --> 01:56:29,080
evidence. 
I know y'all know the story way 

1965
01:56:29,080 --> 01:56:32,720
better than me, but that stuff 
was just like guilty, guilty, 

1966
01:56:32,720 --> 01:56:36,520
guilty, guilty. 
Anything y'all want to add to 

1967
01:56:36,520 --> 01:56:38,920
that? 
If not, I can just jump on, move

1968
01:56:38,920 --> 01:56:44,080
it to the next point, anything. 
Well, I just think that was, I 

1969
01:56:44,080 --> 01:56:47,800
think that was a telling moment.
You know, the the detectives 

1970
01:56:47,800 --> 01:56:52,320
relating that they, they already
knew that Lori and Chad were 

1971
01:56:52,320 --> 01:56:55,000
married. 
They already knew that Lori and 

1972
01:56:55,000 --> 01:56:58,640
Alex were super, super close as 
brother and sister. 

1973
01:56:58,960 --> 01:57:02,560
And yet when they ask Alex for 
the phone number, he says he 

1974
01:57:02,560 --> 01:57:05,240
doesn't have it. 
And Chad says, I don't know Lori

1975
01:57:05,240 --> 01:57:09,440
very well. 
You know, if that was me as an 

1976
01:57:09,440 --> 01:57:13,600
investigator, I would have been 
like, you know, that's, that's a

1977
01:57:14,200 --> 01:57:17,360
super big red flag right there. 
You know, that that might have 

1978
01:57:17,360 --> 01:57:20,000
been a moment where where I 
would have said, OK, everybody's

1979
01:57:20,000 --> 01:57:22,040
lying to me at this point, you 
know. 

1980
01:57:22,040 --> 01:57:24,720
So I think that was, that was 
obviously super telling. 

1981
01:57:24,720 --> 01:57:28,360
And then, yeah, to have, I hated
seeing Melanie Gibb, by the way.

1982
01:57:29,080 --> 01:57:34,520
I, I, it's very difficult for me
to listen to her talk because I 

1983
01:57:34,520 --> 01:57:38,000
think she knows way, way more 
than she is ever going to be 

1984
01:57:38,000 --> 01:57:41,680
willing to say publicly. 
I think that she has a lot more 

1985
01:57:41,680 --> 01:57:48,480
information that could help, It 
could help us understand better 

1986
01:57:48,480 --> 01:57:51,240
what happened to the children 
and exactly when and those those

1987
01:57:51,240 --> 01:57:54,200
kinds of things. 
So I, I, it's hard for me to 

1988
01:57:54,200 --> 01:57:57,080
listen to her talk about the 
things that she will talk about 

1989
01:57:57,080 --> 01:58:00,640
because I have other things that
I would, I would love for her to

1990
01:58:00,640 --> 01:58:03,840
say everything that she knows. 
However, I will just say I'm 

1991
01:58:03,840 --> 01:58:05,560
grateful for what she has told 
us. 

1992
01:58:05,560 --> 01:58:08,040
I'm grateful that she did 
finally come forward and tell 

1993
01:58:08,040 --> 01:58:10,960
the police, hey, I lied to you. 
I didn't really have JJ. 

1994
01:58:13,320 --> 01:58:17,080
But yeah, that was definitely 
another very telling time of, 

1995
01:58:17,160 --> 01:58:22,040
you know, of them finding out 
that that Chad called and said, 

1996
01:58:22,120 --> 01:58:26,480
hey, don't, don't tell people, 
don't tell the police J JS with 

1997
01:58:26,480 --> 01:58:29,760
you, don't tell him that we lied
to you or whatever, whatever it 

1998
01:58:29,760 --> 01:58:31,840
was that they exactly said 
anyway. 

1999
01:58:32,760 --> 01:58:35,960
Let me let me let's follow up on
that cause a lot of comments are

2000
01:58:35,960 --> 01:58:41,520
coming in one comment in 
particular and I'm going to put 

2001
01:58:41,520 --> 01:58:45,600
this up as a poll. 
Valerie says I will always feel 

2002
01:58:45,600 --> 01:58:49,040
Melanie Gibb may have saved the 
kids had she spoken up sooner. 

2003
01:58:49,640 --> 01:58:52,680
She knew being declared dark was
a death sentence. 

2004
01:58:53,280 --> 01:58:56,440
A lot of other people are saying
Melanie was complicit. 

2005
01:58:58,480 --> 01:59:01,400
You know, is that what, what do 
y'all think? 

2006
01:59:01,400 --> 01:59:05,800
Is Melanie potentially to blame?
Culpable. 

2007
01:59:07,320 --> 01:59:10,680
Nel Nel Nelp says Melanie is 
culpable. 

2008
01:59:11,240 --> 01:59:15,080
I mean, isn't there more people 
than Melanie like that were 

2009
01:59:15,080 --> 01:59:21,560
around the circle like Suleima 
or what's what's the niece? 

2010
01:59:21,720 --> 01:59:23,880
Laurie's niece Laura, And you're
muted. 

2011
01:59:24,520 --> 01:59:28,280
Yeah, but there were only two 
people inside Laurie's townhome 

2012
01:59:28,480 --> 01:59:32,240
when JJ was murdered. 
Two people who were texting 

2013
01:59:32,240 --> 01:59:35,640
Laurie and Chad in the middle of
the night at 2:00 AM and then 

2014
01:59:35,640 --> 01:59:37,960
claiming later that they just 
had a bad nightmare. 

2015
01:59:38,800 --> 01:59:43,040
Two people who knew J had been 
declared a zombie that night, 

2016
01:59:43,280 --> 01:59:46,200
knew something horrendous was 
happening, even tried to open 

2017
01:59:46,200 --> 01:59:48,680
Laurie door at 2:00 AM but found
it locked. 

2018
01:59:48,960 --> 01:59:51,120
I will not be able to get over 
that. 

2019
01:59:51,120 --> 01:59:55,280
And I will never believe their 
story of just being asleep and 

2020
01:59:55,280 --> 02:00:00,040
waking up because David Warwick,
you know, this middle-aged man 

2021
02:00:00,040 --> 02:00:02,760
had a nightmare and needed a 
blessing from Chad. 

2022
02:00:03,160 --> 02:00:05,440
And it was so intense. 
Their need was so intense that 

2023
02:00:05,440 --> 02:00:08,360
they were, you know, wiggling 
Lori's door at 2:00 AM and 

2024
02:00:08,360 --> 02:00:10,440
texting them both. 
They knew exactly what was 

2025
02:00:10,440 --> 02:00:14,960
happening. 
And they have, you know, they've

2026
02:00:14,960 --> 02:00:16,680
been protected to tell their 
story. 

2027
02:00:16,680 --> 02:00:22,880
And I I will never, ever. 
Be okay with the many people and

2028
02:00:22,880 --> 02:00:26,040
I'm sorry to Gerardo, I'm sorry 
to like cut you off this stuff. 

2029
02:00:26,040 --> 02:00:29,000
Like clearly that was like all 
emotion on my part to cut you 

2030
02:00:29,000 --> 02:00:30,960
off Gerardo. 
I'm I'm sorry because like I get

2031
02:00:30,960 --> 02:00:32,680
so angry. 
But but going back to what you 

2032
02:00:32,680 --> 02:00:34,720
were saying before I cut you 
off, Gerardo, and you can start 

2033
02:00:34,800 --> 02:00:39,560
again, is yes, there were many 
people dilemma, many, many 

2034
02:00:40,000 --> 02:00:42,000
people involved that did 
nothing. 

2035
02:00:42,440 --> 02:00:45,360
But Melanie Gibb even had 
Charles coming to her crying. 

2036
02:00:45,560 --> 02:00:49,040
She shared this on a recorded 
phone call with Sherry Doddle, 

2037
02:00:49,040 --> 02:00:52,280
and she said, yeah, Charles came
to me crying, you know, not 

2038
02:00:52,280 --> 02:00:55,920
knowing what to do. 
And I said I didn't know what to

2039
02:00:55,920 --> 02:00:57,520
tell him. 
You know, he said help me, help 

2040
02:00:57,520 --> 02:00:59,720
me, but I didn't know. 
And then Sherry Donnell says, 

2041
02:00:59,720 --> 02:01:02,680
well, did Lori kill Charles 
Valo? 

2042
02:01:02,680 --> 02:01:05,760
And she said, well, yeah, but, 
you know, for self-defense 

2043
02:01:05,760 --> 02:01:06,920
reasons. 
But but but yeah. 

2044
02:01:06,920 --> 02:01:09,120
And then Zulema going back to 
Gerardo, what you're saying 

2045
02:01:09,120 --> 02:01:13,400
Zulema saying that it was a 
Nephi and Laban ending to 

2046
02:01:13,400 --> 02:01:18,400
Charles's death. 
So many, so many people knew 

2047
02:01:18,400 --> 02:01:21,760
that carried this belief system 
and did nothing. 

2048
02:01:21,760 --> 02:01:23,280
And I'll let you finish now. 
Gerardo. 

2049
02:01:23,280 --> 02:01:25,160
Sorry. 
That was like pure like, are we?

2050
02:01:25,520 --> 02:01:28,760
Saying Melanie, are we saying 
Melanie probably knew the kids 

2051
02:01:28,760 --> 02:01:30,400
were going to die and did 
nothing? 

2052
02:01:30,480 --> 02:01:31,560
Oh, we that's. 
What I'm saying? 

2053
02:01:32,520 --> 02:01:33,560
Go, go ahead, Lori. 
What? 

2054
02:01:33,680 --> 02:01:35,040
No, that that's what I just 
said. 

2055
02:01:35,120 --> 02:01:37,280
And I, I will boldly state that 
is that. 

2056
02:01:37,480 --> 02:01:40,240
We said is our opinions, These 
are our opinions. 

2057
02:01:40,720 --> 02:01:42,640
These are our opinion. 
This is my opinion. 

2058
02:01:43,200 --> 02:01:45,840
This is my opinion and my 
speculation. 

2059
02:01:46,080 --> 02:01:50,120
Looking at all of the evidence 
sitting in both trials, watching

2060
02:01:50,120 --> 02:01:53,600
all of Melanie Gibbs full police
interviews that she gave that 

2061
02:01:53,600 --> 02:02:00,840
they're on YouTube, watching her
testimony, knowing her alibi, 

2062
02:02:01,240 --> 02:02:04,920
seeing the inside of this town 
home on video, knowing that it 

2063
02:02:04,920 --> 02:02:08,520
wasn't big, knowing that they 
were there, listening to the 

2064
02:02:08,520 --> 02:02:12,480
podcast they gave that night. 
It is absolute speculation. 

2065
02:02:12,640 --> 02:02:16,160
I wasn't there, but it is 
speculation with a lot of 

2066
02:02:16,160 --> 02:02:18,200
evidence that I have heard over 
the years. 

2067
02:02:18,600 --> 02:02:21,320
I do believe she knew the 
children were in danger. 

2068
02:02:22,960 --> 02:02:25,720
That's so dark. 
I agree. 

2069
02:02:25,880 --> 02:02:30,000
I, I totally agree. 
I, I think, I think all of the, 

2070
02:02:30,080 --> 02:02:33,920
the people who called themselves
the seven gatherers or whatever,

2071
02:02:35,040 --> 02:02:38,200
you know, all of the people who 
were in that inner circle who 

2072
02:02:38,200 --> 02:02:44,640
were doing castings on Charles. 
That's the part of this part of 

2073
02:02:44,640 --> 02:02:48,600
Laurie's trial, of this trial 
that I want to, I want to know 

2074
02:02:48,600 --> 02:02:52,200
all the information about how 
much they knew when they knew it

2075
02:02:52,320 --> 02:02:55,680
just prior to Charles's death 
and then after Charles's death 

2076
02:02:56,000 --> 02:02:57,720
as well. 
Their behavior, the way that 

2077
02:02:57,720 --> 02:03:01,800
they acted and interacted with 
each other, what communication 

2078
02:03:01,800 --> 02:03:04,320
went back and forth. 
Because I absolutely believe 

2079
02:03:04,320 --> 02:03:09,200
that they knew that when Chad 
some said someone was dark, it, 

2080
02:03:09,280 --> 02:03:13,080
it meant death, especially, 
especially after Charles. 

2081
02:03:13,320 --> 02:03:16,680
And so anybody who was doing a 
casting for the kids or who 

2082
02:03:16,680 --> 02:03:19,720
heard Laurie or Chad refer to 
either one of the children as 

2083
02:03:19,720 --> 02:03:22,640
dark, I think they absolutely 
knew what was going to happen 

2084
02:03:23,440 --> 02:03:25,320
and they did nothing and they 
said nothing. 

2085
02:03:25,680 --> 02:03:28,800
And I wish that they would all 
be held accountable. 

2086
02:03:28,800 --> 02:03:33,040
But as I always have to point 
out on my channel is that law 

2087
02:03:33,040 --> 02:03:36,480
enforcement, prosecutors, 
they're always going to look at 

2088
02:03:36,480 --> 02:03:40,640
likelihood of conviction and 
they've already got convictions 

2089
02:03:40,640 --> 02:03:45,240
in these three murders, you 
know, And so they're probably 

2090
02:03:45,240 --> 02:03:49,200
not going to take a look at 
Zulema and both of the Melanie's

2091
02:03:50,000 --> 02:03:53,160
for prosecution for those 
reasons, which is infuriating. 

2092
02:03:54,760 --> 02:03:58,680
But it, you know, it is my 
opinion as well that they 

2093
02:03:58,680 --> 02:04:00,800
absolutely knew. 
They absolutely could have done 

2094
02:04:00,800 --> 02:04:02,160
something. 
They could have said something, 

2095
02:04:02,160 --> 02:04:04,880
they could have spoken up and 
they chose not to. 

2096
02:04:04,960 --> 02:04:08,400
And I think the reason they 
chose not to is because that 

2097
02:04:08,400 --> 02:04:12,560
would have meant losing their 
status in this little cult and 

2098
02:04:12,560 --> 02:04:15,760
losing face and possibly 
confronting the fact that 

2099
02:04:15,760 --> 02:04:18,000
they're believing in stuff 
that's not real. 

2100
02:04:18,240 --> 02:04:21,640
And they have to deal with the 
fact that they've been duped and

2101
02:04:21,640 --> 02:04:23,720
they've been manipulated and 
they've been lied to. 

2102
02:04:24,520 --> 02:04:28,480
And while that is a difficult 
thing to admit, what's the 

2103
02:04:28,480 --> 02:04:30,440
alternative? 
The alternative is that people 

2104
02:04:30,440 --> 02:04:32,960
die. 
Yeah. 

2105
02:04:34,400 --> 02:04:35,840
Period. 
Absolutely. 

2106
02:04:38,440 --> 02:04:41,400
Well, that's that's just dark 
and it's kind of unthinkable. 

2107
02:04:42,000 --> 02:04:46,240
The people can get in this kind 
of fantasy mindset where they're

2108
02:04:46,240 --> 02:04:49,160
doing the Lord's work and 
they're aware that children are 

2109
02:04:49,160 --> 02:04:51,960
going to die and they just 
choose not to do anything. 

2110
02:04:51,960 --> 02:04:55,160
I just can't even imagine it. 
I put out the poll. 

2111
02:04:55,200 --> 02:04:56,400
We're doing a lot of polls 
today. 

2112
02:04:57,000 --> 02:04:59,360
I put out the bold poll. 
Did Melanie Gibb know the 

2113
02:04:59,360 --> 02:05:02,400
children would be murdered and 
opted to do nothing? 

2114
02:05:02,800 --> 02:05:06,360
So far, 300 people have voted 
and 86% say yes. 

2115
02:05:06,920 --> 02:05:09,240
They believe that Melanie Gibb 
knew the children would be 

2116
02:05:09,240 --> 02:05:12,440
murdered and opted to do 
nothing, which is just kind of 

2117
02:05:12,440 --> 02:05:14,120
sickening and mind blowing. 
Do we know you? 

2118
02:05:14,440 --> 02:05:20,080
Received any kind of immunity to
testify or no, we don't know. 

2119
02:05:21,080 --> 02:05:23,800
I don't know. 
For I don't think we know for 

2120
02:05:23,800 --> 02:05:26,320
sure. 
I think there's been speculation

2121
02:05:26,320 --> 02:05:29,160
that both Dilemma and Melanie 
were offered some kind of 

2122
02:05:29,160 --> 02:05:31,320
immunity, but I don't know. 
Lauren, do you, do you know 

2123
02:05:31,320 --> 02:05:33,400
anything? 
I think it came out in trial 

2124
02:05:33,560 --> 02:05:35,640
that, yeah, she was offered. 
Oh wow. 

2125
02:05:35,880 --> 02:05:37,840
That Zulema was or Melanie, or 
both. 

2126
02:05:39,000 --> 02:05:45,000
Melanie, possibly Zulema too. 
OK, actually let me take that 

2127
02:05:45,000 --> 02:05:46,360
back on Zulema. 
I, I don't know. 

2128
02:05:46,440 --> 02:05:49,520
I don't know. 
My my memory is not good enough 

2129
02:05:50,440 --> 02:05:54,160
to say. 
If anybody knows in comments, I 

2130
02:05:54,160 --> 02:05:56,320
probably knew one time and I'm 
trying to blink. 

2131
02:05:56,760 --> 02:06:00,880
So, so the next part and and I 
think no one's ever going to be 

2132
02:06:00,880 --> 02:06:03,160
able to dissuade me of my 
opinion here. 

2133
02:06:03,840 --> 02:06:08,800
I'm waiting, I'm waiting for the
part and again, I the the facts 

2134
02:06:08,800 --> 02:06:12,080
of this case come and go for me 
because I just haven't been able

2135
02:06:12,080 --> 02:06:14,840
to internalize them, 
fortunately, unfortunately as 

2136
02:06:14,840 --> 02:06:17,800
much as y'all have. 
But I was waiting for the point 

2137
02:06:17,800 --> 02:06:24,440
where Alex dies and somebody is 
blamed and even arrested for 

2138
02:06:24,440 --> 02:06:28,200
Alex's murder. 
And instead what the narrative 

2139
02:06:28,200 --> 02:06:33,280
said in this in this show was 
that Alex just randomly Laurie's

2140
02:06:33,280 --> 02:06:36,680
brother, I should say, who is 
likely the murder of several 

2141
02:06:36,680 --> 02:06:40,480
people. 
Alex collapses and dies and I'm 

2142
02:06:40,480 --> 02:06:44,760
thinking surely Zulama was going
to be convicted for Alex's death

2143
02:06:45,480 --> 02:06:49,920
and instead they just say Alex 
died of natural causes, likely 

2144
02:06:49,920 --> 02:06:52,040
blood clots. 
And I'm just going to say in my 

2145
02:06:52,040 --> 02:06:59,000
mind there is a 0% chance that 
Alex dies of natural causes. 

2146
02:06:59,560 --> 02:07:05,640
It's it has to be that he was 
poisoned under lawyer and or 

2147
02:07:05,920 --> 02:07:10,520
Chad's direction to get the 
witness, you know murderer 

2148
02:07:10,520 --> 02:07:14,200
witness out of the way and yet 
the show just wanted me to 

2149
02:07:14,200 --> 02:07:18,400
believe that he just randomly 
magically died of blood clots. 

2150
02:07:18,960 --> 02:07:20,840
Do do y'all have opinions about 
this? 

2151
02:07:20,840 --> 02:07:25,200
Am I crazy or are there 
legitimate suspicions that he 

2152
02:07:25,200 --> 02:07:28,440
was murdered and they just 
didn't want to say it or what? 

2153
02:07:28,440 --> 02:07:32,840
Help me out here y'all. 
Legitimate suspicions, even as 

2154
02:07:32,840 --> 02:07:36,680
much as the prosecution bringing
it up in trial. 

2155
02:07:36,680 --> 02:07:42,280
We heard a really a fascinating 
piece of evidence at Chad 

2156
02:07:42,280 --> 02:07:48,680
Dabell's trial this last year 
where we can call him the Ian, 

2157
02:07:48,800 --> 02:07:58,480
Ian Pawlowski tapes and Ian who 
married Melanie the the niece of

2158
02:07:58,480 --> 02:08:02,760
Lori Valo. 
So Melanie isn't somebody else 

2159
02:08:02,760 --> 02:08:05,960
that I think has, you know, been
speculated that she should have 

2160
02:08:05,960 --> 02:08:09,760
also been charged or arrested. 
That's also been speculated. 

2161
02:08:09,760 --> 02:08:13,720
So she she was she was the 
ex-wife of Brandon Boudreau. 

2162
02:08:14,440 --> 02:08:21,360
So Ian Pawlowski marries Melanie
and then Ian Pawlowski is like, 

2163
02:08:21,360 --> 02:08:23,680
wait a minute, what did I just 
marry into? 

2164
02:08:24,200 --> 02:08:28,080
Freaks out after Brandon, after 
the attempted murder of Brandon,

2165
02:08:28,080 --> 02:08:31,680
goes to police, suggests that he
is afraid children are in 

2166
02:08:31,680 --> 02:08:34,080
danger. 
Melanie Gibb then goes to 

2167
02:08:34,080 --> 02:08:35,360
police. 
They all start talking at the 

2168
02:08:35,360 --> 02:08:37,480
same time. 
I wonder why because they all 

2169
02:08:37,480 --> 02:08:39,800
know. 
So within one day, Melanie 

2170
02:08:39,800 --> 02:08:43,040
Polowski, Ian Polowski and 
Melanie Gibb are all talking to 

2171
02:08:43,040 --> 02:08:45,480
police. 
Like once one person snitches, 

2172
02:08:45,480 --> 02:08:47,560
they all snitch. 
So they all start going to 

2173
02:08:47,560 --> 02:08:50,800
police. 
And Ian Polowski, like allegedly

2174
02:08:50,800 --> 02:08:53,800
terrified about what he's just 
gotten himself into, says FBI. 

2175
02:08:53,800 --> 02:08:57,400
You know what? 
I will start secretly recording 

2176
02:08:57,400 --> 02:09:02,320
my new wife and all of her 
friends and Chad and he does 

2177
02:09:02,320 --> 02:09:06,120
that and we heard some of those 
recordings at the trial and one 

2178
02:09:06,120 --> 02:09:09,160
of them is the day after Alex 
Cox dies. 

2179
02:09:10,160 --> 02:09:13,440
And there to me it sounds like 
an absolute cover up. 

2180
02:09:13,440 --> 02:09:15,760
Chad is on the phone and 
everybody's talking and 

2181
02:09:15,760 --> 02:09:20,280
everybody's saying like, you 
know, just get did do you have 

2182
02:09:20,280 --> 02:09:23,000
his belongings? 
Did you get this or you got this

2183
02:09:23,000 --> 02:09:25,920
like and then Melanie Polaski 
said something like, well, I 

2184
02:09:25,920 --> 02:09:29,640
don't want Brandon to know that 
Alex just died because it's 

2185
02:09:29,640 --> 02:09:34,480
going to give him some ammo and 
let's just keep this on the DLI 

2186
02:09:35,240 --> 02:09:36,560
mean. 
That was the moment where I 

2187
02:09:36,560 --> 02:09:41,480
thought if there was any doubt 
in my mind, which there was some

2188
02:09:41,480 --> 02:09:43,280
doubt, weird coincidences 
happened. 

2189
02:09:43,640 --> 02:09:47,200
Hearing that recording a trial 
erased all that doubt. 

2190
02:09:47,520 --> 02:09:53,240
Yeah, I just asked ChatGPT, 
which, you know, take it for 

2191
02:09:53,240 --> 02:09:58,160
whatever it's worth, is ChatGPT 
if a pulmonary embolism can be 

2192
02:09:58,160 --> 02:10:03,800
made to look natural? 
And the answer according to this

2193
02:10:03,800 --> 02:10:06,080
is yes. 
And it could be nearly 

2194
02:10:06,080 --> 02:10:09,840
undetectable in an autopsy. 
There's several ways a person 

2195
02:10:09,840 --> 02:10:13,600
could be convertly induced into 
developing a pulmonary embolism,

2196
02:10:13,600 --> 02:10:17,480
which was what was determined to
be the cause of Alex Cox's 

2197
02:10:17,480 --> 02:10:20,640
death. 
And he says possible external 

2198
02:10:20,640 --> 02:10:25,640
induction, like administering a 
pro coagulant drug or substance 

2199
02:10:26,080 --> 02:10:29,720
and certain drugs or toxin can 
increase blood clot clot 

2200
02:10:29,920 --> 02:10:31,960
clotting. 
And basically, you know, it 

2201
02:10:31,960 --> 02:10:37,400
gives several options, but it 
basically says that all of these

2202
02:10:37,400 --> 02:10:43,400
would be would be nearly 
undetectable in an autopsy. 

2203
02:10:45,840 --> 02:10:50,840
So when we know that there was 
some talk about, you know, Chad 

2204
02:10:50,840 --> 02:10:54,440
saying before Alex died, get 
kind of getting getting him 

2205
02:10:54,440 --> 02:10:59,000
prepared or trying to convince 
him that he was that his time on

2206
02:10:59,000 --> 02:11:03,000
this earth had or where it was 
coming to an end. 

2207
02:11:03,120 --> 02:11:06,120
Wasn't it some type of 
patriarchal blessing, priesthood

2208
02:11:06,120 --> 02:11:07,520
blessing kind of thing? 
Yeah. 

2209
02:11:07,680 --> 02:11:08,800
Yeah. 
You will. 

2210
02:11:08,840 --> 02:11:12,400
You will never ever be able to 
convince me that Alex's death 

2211
02:11:12,400 --> 02:11:14,360
was natural. 
Not, not ever. 

2212
02:11:15,280 --> 02:11:19,960
You know, one day after Tammy's 
body was exhumed, immediately 

2213
02:11:19,960 --> 02:11:23,240
after this patriarchal blessing 
that Chad gave him that 

2214
02:11:23,240 --> 02:11:26,920
basically told him that he'd 
done his work well and that it 

2215
02:11:26,920 --> 02:11:31,600
was OK for him to move on to the
next life or to the next 

2216
02:11:31,600 --> 02:11:36,320
mission, was the implication. 
It was a bilateral pulmonary 

2217
02:11:36,360 --> 02:11:41,200
embolism, meaning in both lungs.
And OK, I will say yes. 

2218
02:11:41,200 --> 02:11:45,120
You know, in the family there is
somewhat of a history of blood 

2219
02:11:45,120 --> 02:11:51,520
clots, Laurie and and Alex's. 
You know, my grandmother Novell 

2220
02:11:51,520 --> 02:11:56,040
died of a brain aneurysm. 
So there was some speculation in

2221
02:11:56,040 --> 02:11:59,240
the family about that. 
However, again, Gerardo is 

2222
02:11:59,240 --> 02:12:03,680
correct, there are lots and lots
of ways that a pulmonary 

2223
02:12:03,680 --> 02:12:07,040
embolism could be caused that 
would be undetectable. 

2224
02:12:07,360 --> 02:12:10,800
And just to just to silence 
everybody who's speculating in 

2225
02:12:10,800 --> 02:12:13,680
the chat, yes, Alex had an 
autopsy. 

2226
02:12:13,920 --> 02:12:17,920
Yes, it was ruled natural causes
due to bilateral pulmonary 

2227
02:12:17,920 --> 02:12:20,880
embolism. 
Yes, his body was cremated, but 

2228
02:12:20,880 --> 02:12:24,640
they did reserve blood and 
tissue samples in case they 

2229
02:12:24,640 --> 02:12:26,560
needed to test something in the 
future. 

2230
02:12:27,080 --> 02:12:30,960
But you can't just do, and yes, 
a tox panel was done, but you 

2231
02:12:30,960 --> 02:12:34,560
can't just do a tox screening 
for everything. 

2232
02:12:35,440 --> 02:12:37,920
You know, like there's a general
panel that they do that's 

2233
02:12:37,920 --> 02:12:42,000
standard for autopsies. 
But if you want to look for a 

2234
02:12:42,000 --> 02:12:46,200
specific toxin or a specific 
drug or a specific poison, you 

2235
02:12:46,200 --> 02:12:50,400
have to specify that you want 
that specific thing to be 

2236
02:12:50,400 --> 02:12:52,000
tested. 
And they can't just test for 

2237
02:12:52,000 --> 02:12:55,440
everything. 
So yes, 100% there's a 

2238
02:12:55,440 --> 02:12:59,080
possibility that someone could 
have introduced some kind of 

2239
02:12:59,080 --> 02:13:02,400
toxin into his food or his 
bloodstream, or he could have 

2240
02:13:02,400 --> 02:13:05,960
done it himself that would have 
caused him to have pulmonary 

2241
02:13:05,960 --> 02:13:07,720
embolism and then it would be 
undetectable. 

2242
02:13:07,720 --> 02:13:11,000
So the timing of it is way too 
suspicious. 

2243
02:13:11,960 --> 02:13:14,320
You know, for people saying he 
was young and healthy, he was 

2244
02:13:14,320 --> 02:13:16,680
51. 
He was an over the road trucker.

2245
02:13:16,920 --> 02:13:20,280
So that's kind of what you know,
some other people have said 

2246
02:13:20,280 --> 02:13:23,040
that, you know, when you're an 
over the road trucker, you can 

2247
02:13:23,120 --> 02:13:26,280
get DVT, which can cause blood 
clots and things like that. 

2248
02:13:26,280 --> 02:13:32,000
OK, fine, fine, fine. 
But he was a killer who was 

2249
02:13:32,880 --> 02:13:37,600
directly responsible for the 
deaths of several people 

2250
02:13:38,320 --> 02:13:42,160
directly involved. 
And then, you know, he was 

2251
02:13:42,160 --> 02:13:45,320
saying to Zulima, I think I 
might be their fall guy. 

2252
02:13:45,560 --> 02:13:49,880
And then a day later, he's dead.
So that to me is just there's 

2253
02:13:49,880 --> 02:13:53,720
too many things in there that it
that it's not a coincidence 

2254
02:13:54,040 --> 02:13:59,480
anymore. 
All right, that's good, because 

2255
02:13:59,480 --> 02:14:02,160
I felt like I was losing touch 
with reality for a second. 

2256
02:14:03,840 --> 02:14:05,640
We all do. 
Whenever we look at the case, 

2257
02:14:05,840 --> 02:14:08,800
you know, it's just like, what? 
What kind of a world am I living

2258
02:14:08,800 --> 02:14:10,960
in where this kind of stuff is 
possible? 

2259
02:14:12,240 --> 02:14:15,920
Yeah, so and y'all jump in 
anytime if you got something 

2260
02:14:16,040 --> 02:14:19,080
else you want to say. 
So when when they show, when 

2261
02:14:19,080 --> 02:14:22,560
they got to the point about them
sitting by the pool, obviously I

2262
02:14:22,560 --> 02:14:25,000
was hoping that they were going 
to mention the Visions of Glory 

2263
02:14:25,000 --> 02:14:27,520
book that was under Laurie's 
knee. 

2264
02:14:28,040 --> 02:14:29,960
There was no mention of the 
visions of Glory book. 

2265
02:14:29,960 --> 02:14:34,360
I can totally understand that a 
secular national news story is 

2266
02:14:34,360 --> 02:14:36,440
going to have to keep the story 
focused. 

2267
02:14:36,840 --> 02:14:40,080
And then maybe that's the detail
that they did a rat, a rabbit 

2268
02:14:40,080 --> 02:14:41,280
hole they didn't want to go 
down. 

2269
02:14:41,440 --> 02:14:43,440
But but Lauren, you're, you're 
raising your finger. 

2270
02:14:43,680 --> 02:14:46,560
Jump in, Lauren. 
Keith did ask me a lot of 

2271
02:14:46,560 --> 02:14:48,160
questions about Visions of 
Glory. 

2272
02:14:48,200 --> 02:14:50,840
Oh wow. 
We did talk and I read from the 

2273
02:14:50,840 --> 02:14:54,960
book and we he did talk about 
putting it in. 

2274
02:14:55,080 --> 02:14:59,600
I did hear before they didn't 
have a room, but I do think that

2275
02:14:59,600 --> 02:15:01,640
they were planning on it 
originally. 

2276
02:15:02,600 --> 02:15:06,560
OK, well, that's good to know 
because that's, you know, I 

2277
02:15:06,560 --> 02:15:09,200
don't think we ever want to do 
an episode without calling out 

2278
02:15:09,200 --> 02:15:13,960
the fact that the one you know, 
the the one through line. 

2279
02:15:14,520 --> 02:15:17,000
Well, there are a couple through
lines through the Tim Ballard 

2280
02:15:17,000 --> 02:15:23,360
story, the Ruby Frankie and Joe,
you know, story and the Chad and

2281
02:15:23,360 --> 02:15:26,320
Lori Dabel story. 
I guess one through line is Jodi

2282
02:15:26,320 --> 02:15:29,840
Hildebrandt, but another through
line is the Visions of Glory 

2283
02:15:29,840 --> 02:15:34,240
book and Tom Harrison. 
And until that book gets stamped

2284
02:15:34,240 --> 02:15:38,080
out and killed and denounced and
burned and Tom Harrison is 

2285
02:15:38,080 --> 02:15:40,520
punished. 
Not that we want anyone to be 

2286
02:15:40,520 --> 02:15:45,640
punished per SE, but I think we 
all will continue agreeing that 

2287
02:15:45,640 --> 02:15:47,960
maybe our band should be called 
Visions of Glory. 

2288
02:15:49,120 --> 02:15:52,840
Because until that book goes 
away, we're going to keep seeing

2289
02:15:53,000 --> 02:15:57,640
true crime things happening. 
And a lot of this stuff comes 

2290
02:15:57,640 --> 02:16:02,640
from that book, that awful book 
that we know Tom Harrison is is 

2291
02:16:02,640 --> 02:16:05,400
behind. 
Any disagreement or comments on 

2292
02:16:05,400 --> 02:16:06,760
that? 
Or should I keep going? 

2293
02:16:06,880 --> 02:16:11,120
Got a couple more things. 
I think we've done 8 hours on 

2294
02:16:11,120 --> 02:16:13,480
the book, but I'm, I'm just 
always going to, I'm always 

2295
02:16:13,480 --> 02:16:15,480
going to call it out because it 
is harmful. 

2296
02:16:15,480 --> 02:16:18,040
It is tied to all these other 
people who have done horrible, 

2297
02:16:18,040 --> 02:16:21,680
atrocious things. 
And there are still people out 

2298
02:16:21,680 --> 02:16:23,000
there who think it's a great 
book. 

2299
02:16:23,000 --> 02:16:25,920
There are a couple of YouTube 
channels out there right now 

2300
02:16:25,920 --> 02:16:27,720
where they read the book and 
talk about it. 

2301
02:16:27,720 --> 02:16:31,400
And, you know, I think I have 
addressed this somewhere, but I 

2302
02:16:31,400 --> 02:16:33,600
don't remember where. 
So forgive me if I'm repeating 

2303
02:16:33,600 --> 02:16:35,440
myself. 
But I think one of the reasons 

2304
02:16:35,440 --> 02:16:39,320
why Mormons especially like that
book is because it validates 

2305
02:16:39,320 --> 02:16:42,600
some of their beliefs. 
And it makes them feel a little 

2306
02:16:42,600 --> 02:16:46,559
bit better about believing the 
way that they do about the end 

2307
02:16:46,559 --> 02:16:49,320
times and about, you know, the 
life after this one. 

2308
02:16:49,719 --> 02:16:54,200
So I think people who like it 
are biased to like it because it

2309
02:16:54,200 --> 02:16:56,200
confirms the things that they 
believe. 

2310
02:16:56,240 --> 02:16:58,400
But there's so much harmful in 
it. 

2311
02:16:58,799 --> 02:17:02,360
And again, it glorifies 
justifiable homicide, just like 

2312
02:17:02,360 --> 02:17:05,719
the Book of Mormon does. 
I just think visions of glory 

2313
02:17:05,719 --> 02:17:08,520
needs to go away forever. 
Yeah. 

2314
02:17:08,520 --> 02:17:11,480
And for those who don't know, 
it's sort of this apocalyptic 

2315
02:17:12,440 --> 02:17:18,160
Mormon Christian fan fiction end
of times scenario from a Mormon 

2316
02:17:18,160 --> 02:17:22,120
perspective where calamity comes
to the earth and people who 

2317
02:17:22,120 --> 02:17:26,520
store up food and weapons and 
ammunition are saved. 

2318
02:17:26,520 --> 02:17:30,520
And they all culminated in Salt 
Lake City and Jesus and Joseph 

2319
02:17:30,520 --> 02:17:34,760
Smith come to the temple that's 
in Rubbles or the visitor 

2320
02:17:34,760 --> 02:17:37,760
center. 
And it's just, it's just a 

2321
02:17:38,520 --> 02:17:45,080
millennial Mormon slash 
Christian apocalypse porn 

2322
02:17:46,000 --> 02:17:48,440
wrapped into a book that 
unfortunately just a lot of 

2323
02:17:48,440 --> 02:17:54,160
people believe so. 
I'm seeing a comment by Rose 

2324
02:17:54,160 --> 02:17:56,360
here, and she says nothing is 
harmful in the book. 

2325
02:17:56,360 --> 02:17:58,680
What about the part I read to 
Keith Morrissey where it says 

2326
02:17:58,680 --> 02:18:03,879
that in the in the last days we 
get to act as God and kill 

2327
02:18:03,879 --> 02:18:05,920
people if we see that they're 
dark. 

2328
02:18:07,559 --> 02:18:10,080
That's kind of like, you know, 
not the greatest. 

2329
02:18:10,080 --> 02:18:14,559
And of course, go ahead. 
What a ridiculous position Rose 

2330
02:18:14,559 --> 02:18:15,360
has. 
I don't Rose. 

2331
02:18:15,360 --> 02:18:17,799
I'd like to be respectful to my 
viewers and listeners. 

2332
02:18:18,559 --> 02:18:21,040
Rose says. 
Nothing is harmful in the book. 

2333
02:18:21,639 --> 02:18:23,440
OK, let me just say the quote 
then. 

2334
02:18:23,879 --> 02:18:26,840
OK, let me just say the quote 
from the end of the book that 

2335
02:18:26,840 --> 02:18:30,959
says as they were going around 
gathering people, they would 

2336
02:18:30,959 --> 02:18:33,719
come up against these groups 
that would want to fight them 

2337
02:18:33,760 --> 02:18:37,639
and would want to combat them. 
And they could tell whether or 

2338
02:18:37,639 --> 02:18:40,400
not those groups of people were 
righteous. 

2339
02:18:40,440 --> 02:18:42,799
They could tell whether or not 
those groups of people were 

2340
02:18:42,799 --> 02:18:45,879
going to repent or not. 
So here you have someone who's 

2341
02:18:45,879 --> 02:18:49,360
not God, who's not Jesus, 
judging the hearts and the 

2342
02:18:49,360 --> 02:18:52,799
intents of other people. 
And if that was not bad enough, 

2343
02:18:53,080 --> 02:18:56,160
what they say is that we could 
tell if they were past feeling, 

2344
02:18:56,160 --> 02:18:57,520
if they were not going to 
repent. 

2345
02:18:57,840 --> 02:19:00,920
And if they were not going to 
repent, we were free to deliver 

2346
02:19:00,920 --> 02:19:03,879
them from mortality. 
In other words, we were free to 

2347
02:19:03,879 --> 02:19:07,360
kill them if we believed they 
were never going to repent and 

2348
02:19:07,360 --> 02:19:11,440
their death would be a blessing 
to them because then they 

2349
02:19:11,440 --> 02:19:14,840
couldn't rack up any more sin on
their divine Ledger. 

2350
02:19:15,120 --> 02:19:20,719
If that's not harmful, explain 
to me how it makes me angry. 

2351
02:19:21,480 --> 02:19:24,040
We just, we just, we lit up 
Megan. 

2352
02:19:24,040 --> 02:19:26,200
Megan's on fire. 
We got it. 

2353
02:19:26,200 --> 02:19:30,480
We got caffeinated Megan here. 
You have, you have angry Megan. 

2354
02:19:30,480 --> 02:19:34,040
You have Megan who has listened 
to people try to defend and 

2355
02:19:34,040 --> 02:19:37,719
justify this book that literally
says it's OK to kill people. 

2356
02:19:37,719 --> 02:19:40,520
My family members are dead 
because of that book. 

2357
02:19:40,799 --> 02:19:44,120
Tell me how that's OK. 
It's not. 

2358
02:19:45,959 --> 02:19:49,000
Yeah. 
Thank you, Megan. 

2359
02:19:50,840 --> 02:19:58,400
Thank you. 
All right, well, I'll, I'll jump

2360
02:19:58,400 --> 02:20:02,960
now to, for me, one of the most 
bothersome parts of the whole 

2361
02:20:02,960 --> 02:20:05,160
interview. 
I think it was when an 

2362
02:20:05,160 --> 02:20:09,800
investigator was being 
interviewed towards the end and 

2363
02:20:09,800 --> 02:20:13,840
he said this crime was about 
money, sex and power and the 

2364
02:20:13,840 --> 02:20:17,880
religion was only tangential. 
Y'all probably knew that I was 

2365
02:20:17,880 --> 02:20:21,360
going to not like that. 
I'm going to just highlight 

2366
02:20:21,360 --> 02:20:24,880
really quickly the Mormon 
teachings that I think. 

2367
02:20:25,280 --> 02:20:30,360
Some of the Mormon teachings 
that I think contributed to to 

2368
02:20:30,360 --> 02:20:35,000
these murders, the belief that 
Mormons are special, that 

2369
02:20:35,000 --> 02:20:40,440
they're special above all other 
people on the world, and that 

2370
02:20:40,440 --> 02:20:43,800
individuals can be so special 
that they're favorites of God 

2371
02:20:44,440 --> 02:20:49,160
chosen to usher in the second 
coming, like that is very 

2372
02:20:49,160 --> 02:20:50,880
Mormon. 
It comes from Isaiah. 

2373
02:20:50,880 --> 02:20:53,880
It comes from the Doctrine and 
Covenants, the whole one mighty 

2374
02:20:53,880 --> 02:20:57,200
and strong stuff, and just the 
whole Mormon Christian 

2375
02:20:57,200 --> 02:21:00,840
exceptionalism stuff. 
I think that contributes to to 

2376
02:21:00,840 --> 02:21:07,200
Chad and Laurie's delusions. 
I think the belief in Mormonism 

2377
02:21:07,200 --> 02:21:11,000
that your thoughts and feelings 
are the Holy Ghost. 

2378
02:21:11,720 --> 02:21:15,200
That comes right out of the Book
of Mormon when Nephi is told to 

2379
02:21:15,200 --> 02:21:18,760
chop Laban's head off because he
gets the thought or the feeling 

2380
02:21:18,760 --> 02:21:21,680
that he should. 
This idea that the Holy Ghost 

2381
02:21:22,360 --> 02:21:25,040
speaks to you through your 
thoughts and your feelings is 

2382
02:21:25,040 --> 02:21:31,240
absolutely a recipe for for 
crime and murder because we all 

2383
02:21:31,240 --> 02:21:34,880
have a dangerous or disturbing 
thoughts. 

2384
02:21:34,880 --> 02:21:39,640
As someone who has a PhD in 
psychology who studied OCD, we 

2385
02:21:39,640 --> 02:21:42,720
have horrendous all of us have 
horrendous thoughts that come 

2386
02:21:42,720 --> 02:21:46,000
into our brain or horrendous 
feelings that come into our mind

2387
02:21:46,000 --> 02:21:49,840
at one point or another. 
And if at any point we're under 

2388
02:21:49,840 --> 02:21:55,200
the delusion that those might be
God or or divine angels speaking

2389
02:21:55,200 --> 02:21:59,240
to us, horrible things can 
happen just by that alone. 

2390
02:22:00,480 --> 02:22:06,880
The idea that our bodies can be 
possessed by evil spirits, which

2391
02:22:06,880 --> 02:22:11,720
then led to the zombie 
derivation doctrine was clearly 

2392
02:22:11,720 --> 02:22:15,800
behind this. 
If there wasn't the belief that 

2393
02:22:15,800 --> 02:22:19,720
evil spirits are among us and 
that they can possess bodies, 

2394
02:22:19,920 --> 02:22:23,480
which is a very Mormon and a 
very Christian teaching, which 

2395
02:22:23,480 --> 02:22:26,120
is also very much reinforced in 
the Visions of Glory book, by 

2396
02:22:26,120 --> 02:22:28,520
the way. 
But Jesus himself teaches it in 

2397
02:22:28,520 --> 02:22:30,880
the New Testament. 
It's in the doctrinal covenants,

2398
02:22:30,880 --> 02:22:32,440
it's in the Mormon temple 
ceremony. 

2399
02:22:32,760 --> 02:22:36,840
Joseph Smith taught it himself. 
Without the teaching of of 

2400
02:22:36,840 --> 02:22:41,240
demonic and spirit possession, 
these murders very well might 

2401
02:22:41,240 --> 02:22:44,000
not have happened. 
The idea that death is no big 

2402
02:22:44,000 --> 02:22:48,160
deal, that we should celebrate 
death because we get to go to a 

2403
02:22:48,160 --> 02:22:52,080
better place in the afterlife, 
that comes straight from Joseph 

2404
02:22:52,080 --> 02:22:57,400
Smith and it dismisses the the 
value of life if the next life 

2405
02:22:57,400 --> 02:23:01,480
is more precious. 
I was a 15 year old thinking, 

2406
02:23:01,920 --> 02:23:03,680
wait, let's let me get this 
straight. 

2407
02:23:04,040 --> 02:23:08,720
If we murder babies before they 
come to this earth, according to

2408
02:23:08,720 --> 02:23:11,200
Joseph Smith, they all go 
immediately to the celestial 

2409
02:23:11,200 --> 02:23:13,520
Kingdom. 
But if we let all those babies 

2410
02:23:13,520 --> 02:23:17,600
mature to adulthood and then 
they sin and then they don't go 

2411
02:23:17,600 --> 02:23:20,560
to the celestial Kingdom, the 
most charitable thing we can do 

2412
02:23:20,560 --> 02:23:23,920
with babies is murder them to 
guarantee they're, you know, and

2413
02:23:23,920 --> 02:23:28,840
I thought that is a faithful 
orthodox believing Mormon 14 or 

2414
02:23:28,840 --> 02:23:31,960
15 year old. 
So the, the idea that death has 

2415
02:23:31,960 --> 02:23:35,520
no sting is absolutely a Mormon 
and a Christian doctrine. 

2416
02:23:35,800 --> 02:23:40,480
And I think it leads to these 
helps contribute to these types 

2417
02:23:41,040 --> 02:23:45,600
of crimes and murders. 
The idea that we all lived as 

2418
02:23:45,600 --> 02:23:51,080
spirits before we came here and 
and that there might be multiple

2419
02:23:51,080 --> 02:23:55,440
mortal probations that that we 
could live on the earth multiple

2420
02:23:55,440 --> 02:23:58,520
times. 
And the idea that there's 

2421
02:23:58,520 --> 02:24:01,360
polygamy. 
Those are all mortal teachings. 

2422
02:24:02,080 --> 02:24:04,360
Sorry, those are all very Mormon
teachings. 

2423
02:24:04,600 --> 02:24:08,400
Joseph Smith not only taught 
polygamy, he practiced it. 

2424
02:24:09,080 --> 02:24:13,120
Mormon apostles, prophets and 
revelators have taught about, 

2425
02:24:14,000 --> 02:24:17,880
you know, probations and about 
eternal progression. 

2426
02:24:18,120 --> 02:24:22,280
Again, without the teachings of 
polygamy, without the teachings 

2427
02:24:22,280 --> 02:24:27,360
of of spirit, you know, eternal 
progression, Laurie and Chad 

2428
02:24:27,360 --> 02:24:30,760
wouldn't have been able to have 
these deluded beliefs that maybe

2429
02:24:30,880 --> 02:24:34,560
they knew each other in formal 
in former lives and that maybe 

2430
02:24:34,560 --> 02:24:38,600
they were meant to be together 
with Tammy in some sort of 

2431
02:24:38,600 --> 02:24:42,840
celestial, you know, throuple 
those. 

2432
02:24:42,920 --> 02:24:45,720
Those teachings wouldn't have 
been possible without Joseph 

2433
02:24:45,720 --> 02:24:50,080
Smith's teachings of polygamy 
and eternal progression and and 

2434
02:24:50,080 --> 02:24:53,000
spirit persistence in the plan 
of salvation. 

2435
02:24:53,560 --> 02:24:57,840
The idea that any of us could 
have spiritual powers to speak 

2436
02:24:57,840 --> 02:25:02,040
with the dead, to know the 
future, to know God's will. 

2437
02:25:02,320 --> 02:25:06,080
Just that teaching of spiritual 
power or that we can get visits 

2438
02:25:06,080 --> 02:25:10,800
from God or Jesus gives people 
too much power to then be able 

2439
02:25:10,800 --> 02:25:14,680
to prey on other vulnerable 
people like Chad clearly likely 

2440
02:25:14,680 --> 02:25:19,440
did with Laurie and others 
saying I speak with God, I, I 

2441
02:25:19,440 --> 02:25:23,200
have special powers. 
I'm the one mighty and strong. 

2442
02:25:23,440 --> 02:25:26,640
I have spiritual gifts. 
You need to listen to me. 

2443
02:25:27,680 --> 02:25:30,760
This very well might not have 
happened if there weren't the 

2444
02:25:30,760 --> 02:25:36,040
belief about spiritual gifts 
and, and, and basically 

2445
02:25:36,040 --> 02:25:41,400
religions that denounce 
evidence, that denounce reality 

2446
02:25:41,400 --> 02:25:47,240
and that instead prop up 
supernatural spiritual 

2447
02:25:47,240 --> 02:25:53,680
worldviews predisposes religious
believers to devalue and dismiss

2448
02:25:53,680 --> 02:25:59,880
evidence and instead to have 
conspiratorial mindsets that 

2449
02:25:59,880 --> 02:26:03,880
that are not rooted in evidence 
and rooted in reality, but are 

2450
02:26:03,880 --> 02:26:07,960
instead rooted in spiritual 
psychological fantasy. 

2451
02:26:09,200 --> 02:26:13,760
Those are at play here. 
And then finally, it's very 

2452
02:26:13,760 --> 02:26:16,960
Mormon to believe, even though 
the doctrine, even though the 

2453
02:26:16,960 --> 02:26:20,080
articles of faith says we 
believe in honoring, obeying and

2454
02:26:20,080 --> 02:26:22,800
sustaining the law. 
The Mormon church has a long 

2455
02:26:22,800 --> 02:26:28,080
history of disobeying the law 
and believing that prophet 

2456
02:26:28,080 --> 02:26:30,680
Sears. 
Revelators in the church are 

2457
02:26:30,680 --> 02:26:33,360
above the law. 
And whether that's the secret 

2458
02:26:33,360 --> 02:26:38,840
polygamy that was going on the 
post manifesto polygamy, this 

2459
02:26:38,840 --> 02:26:43,120
idea of bleeding the beast. 
There's a long history of lying 

2460
02:26:43,120 --> 02:26:45,280
for the Lord. 
Gerardo, were you going to jump 

2461
02:26:45,280 --> 02:26:48,040
in and say something? 
The SEC violations. 

2462
02:26:48,240 --> 02:26:51,720
Yeah, the, the, the SEC 
violations the Ensign Peak 

2463
02:26:52,120 --> 02:26:56,720
hiding, hiding our wealth from 
from the members and from the 

2464
02:26:56,720 --> 02:27:02,600
world, masking and deceiving the
IRS and the SEC with its 

2465
02:27:02,600 --> 02:27:05,400
finances. 
The Mormon church has a long 

2466
02:27:05,400 --> 02:27:09,800
history of, of deceiving and 
lying and breaking the law, 

2467
02:27:10,480 --> 02:27:16,480
thinking that God's ways and the
prophets ways are higher and the

2468
02:27:16,480 --> 02:27:18,880
war's ways are higher than man's
ways. 

2469
02:27:19,320 --> 02:27:23,960
And if that's all true, then why
wouldn't members believe that 

2470
02:27:23,960 --> 02:27:28,360
they can also violate, deceive, 
break the law and lie for the 

2471
02:27:28,360 --> 02:27:33,200
Lord when they get these 
thoughts and these impressions 

2472
02:27:33,600 --> 02:27:38,840
that come into their brain? 
So in all of these ways and in 

2473
02:27:38,840 --> 02:27:44,040
many, many more, I do not think 
these murders happen with 

2474
02:27:44,040 --> 02:27:49,560
schlubby Chad Daybell. 
And you know, we want to say 

2475
02:27:49,560 --> 02:27:54,440
vixen Lori Valo, like otherwise 
they're just pedestrian kind of 

2476
02:27:54,440 --> 02:27:59,280
loser people that are broken and
and fraudulent and and 

2477
02:27:59,280 --> 02:28:03,760
marginalized and discredited. 
It's the it's the secret 

2478
02:28:03,760 --> 02:28:08,560
ingredient of super dangerous 
and I would add deadly 

2479
02:28:08,920 --> 02:28:14,800
theological, spiritual and 
religious beliefs that make that

2480
02:28:14,800 --> 02:28:21,360
turn this series of events from 
just silly prepper apocalyptic 

2481
02:28:21,640 --> 02:28:28,800
Larping to the death of at least
four if not more 456 people. 

2482
02:28:29,720 --> 02:28:33,360
That's my view. 
It it seems like over 70% of you

2483
02:28:33,360 --> 02:28:38,160
voted that that these murders 
would not have happened without 

2484
02:28:38,160 --> 02:28:42,120
the Mormon component. 
That's my rant. 

2485
02:28:42,400 --> 02:28:46,800
Sorry I went on that rant. 
Who wants to jump in and and 

2486
02:28:46,800 --> 02:28:50,880
disagree with me or agree with 
me or share your own 

2487
02:28:51,440 --> 02:28:55,520
perspectives? 
I get one rant. 

2488
02:28:55,560 --> 02:29:00,000
Can I have one rant per episode?
I love your rants, John. 

2489
02:29:01,400 --> 02:29:05,240
I, I will just say that, that 
lots of people have asked me, 

2490
02:29:05,240 --> 02:29:07,360
you know, does Lori get here 
without Chad? 

2491
02:29:07,360 --> 02:29:13,040
Does Chad get here without Lori?
And I, I, I think the answer to 

2492
02:29:13,040 --> 02:29:17,280
that is I, I, it's hard to say, 
of course, right. 

2493
02:29:17,280 --> 02:29:21,040
You know, I think Lori had 
always talked about the next 

2494
02:29:21,040 --> 02:29:24,320
life being better. 
She, you know, Colby detailed 

2495
02:29:24,320 --> 02:29:28,600
the story where where she talked
about driving all three of them 

2496
02:29:28,600 --> 02:29:33,280
off a Cliff and Kylie saying, 
yeah, go ahead and do it, mom, 

2497
02:29:33,280 --> 02:29:35,120
because she was young enough 
where she didn't really 

2498
02:29:35,120 --> 02:29:37,240
understand the the implications 
of that. 

2499
02:29:37,240 --> 02:29:39,680
So does Lori get here without 
Chad? 

2500
02:29:39,840 --> 02:29:42,000
I think it's really possible, 
yes. 

2501
02:29:43,000 --> 02:29:45,760
I can't answer whether Chad gets
there without Lori, but I don't 

2502
02:29:45,760 --> 02:29:48,320
think either one of them gets 
there without the beliefs that 

2503
02:29:48,320 --> 02:29:50,720
you just described, John. 
So I'm just going to agree with 

2504
02:29:50,720 --> 02:29:55,680
you in that way. 
Lauren and Gerardo, anything you

2505
02:29:55,680 --> 02:30:01,720
want to add? 
Yeah, I'll go ahead, unless you 

2506
02:30:01,720 --> 02:30:04,080
want to go first, Gerardo. 
You can go you can. 

2507
02:30:05,600 --> 02:30:08,400
Go ahead, Lauren. 
I I hear you, John. 

2508
02:30:09,600 --> 02:30:12,440
I think it's so funny because I 
was actually making a list of 

2509
02:30:12,680 --> 02:30:16,600
very specific LDS beliefs, but 
you did a much more thorough 

2510
02:30:16,600 --> 02:30:18,280
list than I did. 
So. 

2511
02:30:18,320 --> 02:30:25,480
So I concur with what you state 
are the concerning beliefs. 

2512
02:30:26,760 --> 02:30:31,400
I also want to take it further 
though, and this is an 

2513
02:30:31,400 --> 02:30:35,600
interesting part for me because 
I'm going to get those that are 

2514
02:30:36,040 --> 02:30:41,440
XLDS thinking I'm an apologist 
and those that are of any other 

2515
02:30:41,440 --> 02:30:44,080
Christian and denomination, 
they're going to be offended by 

2516
02:30:44,080 --> 02:30:48,520
this. 
But I want to broaden this. 

2517
02:30:48,520 --> 02:30:51,840
I am actually not going to be an
apologist for the LDS church 

2518
02:30:51,840 --> 02:30:54,840
because I don't think anyone 
should ever be an apologist when

2519
02:30:54,840 --> 02:30:58,120
children are being murdered. 
And I actually concur with what 

2520
02:30:58,120 --> 02:31:01,360
you said, John, but here's my 
butt. 

2521
02:31:02,720 --> 02:31:10,400
I I don't think I could not say 
that this goes further than LDS 

2522
02:31:10,400 --> 02:31:11,560
beliefs. 
I want to read to you guys some 

2523
02:31:11,560 --> 02:31:16,000
headlines. 
This is Thursday May 12th, 2022.

2524
02:31:16,400 --> 02:31:20,040
Mother accused of killing her 
children in West Hills, CA 

2525
02:31:20,040 --> 02:31:21,440
believe they were possessed by 
demons. 

2526
02:31:21,800 --> 02:31:25,320
Beautiful woman blonde looks 
just like Laurie accused of 

2527
02:31:25,320 --> 02:31:28,360
killing her three young children
inside her West Hills, CA home 

2528
02:31:28,360 --> 02:31:30,120
believing they were possessed by
demons. 

2529
02:31:30,440 --> 02:31:32,400
Her teenage son helped her do 
it. 

2530
02:31:33,160 --> 02:31:39,960
We have Matthew Coleman, the 
serf teacher, serf teacher who 

2531
02:31:40,560 --> 02:31:43,480
killed both of his children by 
taking them across the border, 

2532
02:31:43,480 --> 02:31:48,120
San Diego serf teacher to cross 
the border to Mexico, killing 

2533
02:31:48,120 --> 02:31:50,320
them both because they had 
serpent DNA. 

2534
02:31:51,280 --> 02:31:55,160
And we have a young girl. 
This was when we covered 

2535
02:31:55,240 --> 02:32:00,040
heartbreaking, heartbreaking. 
Claudia Hernandez murdered her 

2536
02:32:00,040 --> 02:32:02,160
child along Arlie what's her 
name. 

2537
02:32:02,160 --> 02:32:06,040
She was three years old along 
with her father and brother in a

2538
02:32:07,000 --> 02:32:11,680
hours long exorcism inside of 
the church that the family owned

2539
02:32:12,000 --> 02:32:15,920
and tortured her and forcibly 
grabbed her neck, torso, back, 

2540
02:32:16,160 --> 02:32:19,280
smothering her repeatedly tried 
to pry open her mouth to remove 

2541
02:32:19,280 --> 02:32:26,680
the demon and killed her. 
So my point being is, and I 

2542
02:32:26,680 --> 02:32:30,040
brought up terrorism and extreme
beliefs. 

2543
02:32:30,320 --> 02:32:37,360
If if we pinpoint extreme 
beliefs to one religion, we're 

2544
02:32:37,360 --> 02:32:40,280
not doing justice to extreme 
beliefs in general. 

2545
02:32:40,920 --> 02:32:45,160
And thus I am, I am broadening 
the criticism. 

2546
02:32:45,200 --> 02:32:50,480
I am not excusing it because it 
is not OK to see this happening 

2547
02:32:50,680 --> 02:32:54,760
over and over and over again, 
but extreme beliefs are 

2548
02:32:54,760 --> 02:32:58,720
dangerous and they seem to be 
more prominent these days with 

2549
02:32:59,000 --> 02:33:04,560
conspiracy theories online and 
not seen evidence for what it 

2550
02:33:04,560 --> 02:33:07,560
is. 
And it is in the Bible that 

2551
02:33:07,600 --> 02:33:13,840
children are possessed and you 
know it is in it is in Q Anon 

2552
02:33:13,840 --> 02:33:21,000
beliefs that demon serpent DNA 
exists there extreme beliefs are

2553
02:33:21,000 --> 02:33:23,080
happening. 
And if we don't look at evidence

2554
02:33:23,440 --> 02:33:29,160
and I just I just feel like it's
a broader conversation to 

2555
02:33:29,160 --> 02:33:32,720
discuss and Christianity is 
susceptible. 

2556
02:33:33,640 --> 02:33:36,080
Any religion is susceptible to 
extreme beliefs. 

2557
02:33:36,080 --> 02:33:43,120
And when you start to believe in
magical thinking, anything crime

2558
02:33:43,280 --> 02:33:47,520
can and does happen over and 
over and over again. 

2559
02:33:47,520 --> 02:33:50,080
And that's why I'm broadening, 
broadening this conversation 

2560
02:33:50,080 --> 02:33:55,840
because it's not OK. 
And religions are susceptible to

2561
02:33:55,840 --> 02:33:58,680
this. 
And I'm not discounting the 

2562
02:33:58,680 --> 02:34:03,160
specific LDS theology, John, 
that you brought up, but I do 

2563
02:34:03,160 --> 02:34:08,400
want to say there is theology in
many sects of Christianity and 

2564
02:34:08,920 --> 02:34:11,520
they should not be discounted. 
Absolutely. 

2565
02:34:11,520 --> 02:34:13,920
Amen. 
And there could be new age woo, 

2566
02:34:14,720 --> 02:34:17,880
you know, new age weirdness that
that can lead to apocalyptic 

2567
02:34:17,880 --> 02:34:23,560
things. 
Non Christian traditions can 

2568
02:34:23,560 --> 02:34:25,760
also have it. 
Secular people can have 

2569
02:34:25,760 --> 02:34:28,640
dangerous views. 
So it's not like I'm even anti 

2570
02:34:28,640 --> 02:34:30,880
religion. 
I think we all just want to see 

2571
02:34:30,880 --> 02:34:35,040
religions clean up their act, 
get rid of the harm, and then 

2572
02:34:35,040 --> 02:34:38,200
just keep doing good. 
I think we all have that 

2573
02:34:38,200 --> 02:34:40,280
motivation. 
I don't think any of us consider

2574
02:34:40,280 --> 02:34:43,040
ourselves anti Mormon or anti 
Christian. 

2575
02:34:43,800 --> 02:34:45,960
I just think we want to see less
harm being done. 

2576
02:34:46,160 --> 02:34:49,120
I know just like this JJ Smith 
don't lump Jesus Christ into 

2577
02:34:49,120 --> 02:34:52,840
this mess. 
No, I am He removed serpent, He 

2578
02:34:52,840 --> 02:34:57,160
removed Jesus Christ and I have 
identified as a Christian myself

2579
02:34:57,160 --> 02:35:00,960
and other episodes. 
He did exorcisms on people and 

2580
02:35:00,960 --> 02:35:04,600
he removed evil spirits. 
And if we can't look at this in 

2581
02:35:04,600 --> 02:35:07,800
a broader area, if you are 
putting your blinders on and 

2582
02:35:07,800 --> 02:35:12,480
deciding that it is only one 
thing to blame, you know, then 

2583
02:35:12,480 --> 02:35:15,400
you're not you're doing a 
disservice to this issue as a 

2584
02:35:15,400 --> 02:35:19,280
whole. 
I just, I hope that all of us 

2585
02:35:19,280 --> 02:35:21,960
are humble enough to look at our
own belief system here and to 

2586
02:35:21,960 --> 02:35:27,680
see how maybe we can step back 
and realize that any belief 

2587
02:35:27,680 --> 02:35:31,280
system can can be very 
dangerous. 

2588
02:35:31,280 --> 02:35:34,600
It can also be beautiful. 
Christ also taught love one 

2589
02:35:34,600 --> 02:35:39,400
another and to not judge. 
He also did exorcisms. 

2590
02:35:39,600 --> 02:35:44,440
So I just think we need to be 
honest with what we believe and 

2591
02:35:44,440 --> 02:35:48,200
how in the wrong hands, beliefs 
can be extreme and very 

2592
02:35:48,200 --> 02:35:49,840
dangerous. 
Yeah. 

2593
02:35:49,840 --> 02:35:52,800
And I'll just yeah, that that's,
I mean, that's so powerful. 

2594
02:35:52,800 --> 02:35:54,560
And you, you are Christian, 
Lauren. 

2595
02:35:54,560 --> 02:35:57,080
So it's not like you're hating 
on Christ. 

2596
02:35:57,080 --> 02:35:59,400
And by the way, for those who 
haven't thought about this a 

2597
02:35:59,400 --> 02:36:01,440
little bit, you can still 
believe Jesus. 

2598
02:36:01,440 --> 02:36:05,160
Jesus was divine. 
But maybe just whoever wrote the

2599
02:36:05,160 --> 02:36:09,360
Bible got that story about Jesus
casting the pigs out of the 

2600
02:36:09,600 --> 02:36:13,080
casting the evil spirits out of 
the man, and then the evil 

2601
02:36:13,080 --> 02:36:16,040
spirits going to the pig pigs 
and then the pigs run off the 

2602
02:36:16,040 --> 02:36:18,160
Cliff. 
Like you can still believe Jesus

2603
02:36:18,160 --> 02:36:21,280
was divine and just say hey 
maybe whoever wrote the Bible 

2604
02:36:21,280 --> 02:36:24,080
got that story wrong. 
Maybe they interpreted it wrong?

2605
02:36:24,400 --> 02:36:27,400
Yeah, it's interpretation. 
It's interpretation. 

2606
02:36:27,400 --> 02:36:30,600
And, and trust me, the, the, the
LDS faith that I was raised in 

2607
02:36:30,840 --> 02:36:33,840
never talked about harming 
children or casting, you know, 

2608
02:36:34,560 --> 02:36:36,760
you know, demons and children. 
I know. 

2609
02:36:36,760 --> 02:36:40,240
And I'm, I'm talking for myself,
not others in the LDS faces. 

2610
02:36:40,240 --> 02:36:43,920
So let me clarify. 
Like that was my interpretation 

2611
02:36:43,920 --> 02:36:46,480
growing up. 
That doesn't mean others didn't 

2612
02:36:46,800 --> 02:36:50,320
weren't taught those beliefs, 
but any as you point out, it's 

2613
02:36:50,320 --> 02:36:54,560
all interpretation and you just 
we just have to understand that 

2614
02:36:54,560 --> 02:36:59,320
extreme beliefs start in a 
magical belief system and it it 

2615
02:36:59,360 --> 02:37:01,800
it might be interpretation. 
And if it's interpretation, are 

2616
02:37:01,800 --> 02:37:04,600
you interpreting it wrong? 
If it's interpretation, should 

2617
02:37:04,600 --> 02:37:07,280
we like process this together 
and talk about this and and 

2618
02:37:07,280 --> 02:37:10,280
explain how like 1 belief that 
might be beautiful to you and 

2619
02:37:10,280 --> 02:37:13,280
make your life better to be 
really damaging to somebody 

2620
02:37:13,280 --> 02:37:16,240
else? 
Like that's a conversation to be

2621
02:37:16,240 --> 02:37:18,480
had. 
Yeah, we have to be able to have

2622
02:37:18,480 --> 02:37:20,200
it. 
I agree. 

2623
02:37:20,640 --> 02:37:22,480
I agree. 
And I just want to add to, you 

2624
02:37:22,480 --> 02:37:25,760
know, to what you're saying, 
Lauren too, that, you know, I, I

2625
02:37:25,760 --> 02:37:27,240
totally agree with what you're 
saying. 

2626
02:37:27,240 --> 02:37:30,480
And thank you for the challenge 
for all of us to examine our 

2627
02:37:30,480 --> 02:37:34,520
beliefs and to see where they 
might be harmful to someone 

2628
02:37:34,520 --> 02:37:36,880
else. 
I guarantee you every single one

2629
02:37:36,880 --> 02:37:39,800
of us has a belief right now, 
whether it's religious or 

2630
02:37:39,800 --> 02:37:42,920
otherwise, that's harmful or 
damaging to someone else. 

2631
02:37:43,520 --> 02:37:47,400
The other thing I want to point 
out is that religion and 

2632
02:37:47,400 --> 02:37:51,600
particularly high demand 
religion is dangerous in the 

2633
02:37:51,600 --> 02:37:56,240
hands of mentally ill people. 
And so I will just say people 

2634
02:37:56,240 --> 02:37:58,960
with personality disorders, 
people with narcissistic 

2635
02:37:58,960 --> 02:38:04,200
tendencies, people with traits 
of narcissism, all of those 

2636
02:38:04,200 --> 02:38:08,680
people are going to have an 
element of extremism to any 

2637
02:38:08,680 --> 02:38:12,800
religion that they come to. 
And so, you know, that's one of 

2638
02:38:12,800 --> 02:38:16,880
the reasons I'm so passionate 
about educating people about 

2639
02:38:16,880 --> 02:38:21,240
narcissism and manipulation and 
control, coercive control 

2640
02:38:21,240 --> 02:38:26,040
tactics, because in the hands of
the wrong people, you know, 

2641
02:38:26,040 --> 02:38:30,040
religion and other high demand 
systems can become really 

2642
02:38:30,040 --> 02:38:33,040
problematic for for people with 
these types of traits. 

2643
02:38:33,040 --> 02:38:37,520
So we need to all be aware of 
what the traits are and how to 

2644
02:38:37,520 --> 02:38:39,840
defend against them. 
And we all need to be aware of 

2645
02:38:39,840 --> 02:38:42,360
our own traits that tend to 
narcissism. 

2646
02:38:42,360 --> 02:38:47,480
We all have jealousy, spite, 
anger, all of these things that 

2647
02:38:47,520 --> 02:38:50,080
that made Laurie and Chad what 
they are. 

2648
02:38:50,080 --> 02:38:52,400
We all have elements of that in 
ourselves. 

2649
02:38:52,400 --> 02:38:56,400
And if we don't confront those 
traits and address them and 

2650
02:38:56,400 --> 02:38:59,880
learn how to be healthier and to
interact in healthier ways with 

2651
02:38:59,880 --> 02:39:02,480
people, we're all in danger of 
harming someone. 

2652
02:39:03,920 --> 02:39:07,240
Absolutely. 
Thank you and sorry, I just keep

2653
02:39:07,240 --> 02:39:09,360
going back. 
I think this is maybe just like,

2654
02:39:10,120 --> 02:39:13,200
I just want to say this too. 
You know, there was somebody it 

2655
02:39:13,200 --> 02:39:15,440
was pointed out in the chat and 
and I'm going to read it. 

2656
02:39:16,760 --> 02:39:18,200
Rose. 
I think we called Rose out 

2657
02:39:18,200 --> 02:39:20,880
earlier, but I actually have 
compassion for this comment. 

2658
02:39:21,040 --> 02:39:24,160
Rose, she says is, is Lauren 
LDS? 

2659
02:39:24,160 --> 02:39:26,440
Is she not going to stand up for
our faith? 

2660
02:39:27,200 --> 02:39:29,440
And so, so I want to say 
something to you. 

2661
02:39:29,440 --> 02:39:34,040
I, I think I, I, I, I might be 
the only one that still remains 

2662
02:39:34,800 --> 02:39:38,240
LDS with my, my membership here.
Not that I want to really talk 

2663
02:39:38,240 --> 02:39:39,320
too much about my personal 
beliefs. 

2664
02:39:39,320 --> 02:39:42,240
It's something I steer clear of.
I just always make it known sort

2665
02:39:42,240 --> 02:39:45,000
of when covering this case 
because I feel it's only fair to

2666
02:39:45,000 --> 02:39:51,280
be journalistic and honest. 
The LDS faith that I grew up in 

2667
02:39:53,640 --> 02:39:59,640
could never have fathomed this 
case, and if you want to know 

2668
02:39:59,680 --> 02:40:04,240
why I have been, you can call it
obsessed with this case for 5 

2669
02:40:04,240 --> 02:40:07,960
1/2 years. 
It's because when I opened the 

2670
02:40:08,360 --> 02:40:12,240
first AP article that I read, 
that was The Wire. 

2671
02:40:12,240 --> 02:40:13,800
It came down that they're 
missing children. 

2672
02:40:14,760 --> 02:40:20,200
I saw a Deseret book author. 
And a beautiful blonde woman who

2673
02:40:20,200 --> 02:40:24,720
looked like all of my friends 
mom's growing up and, and they 

2674
02:40:24,720 --> 02:40:26,560
were like, we're looking for 
these two and they're missing 

2675
02:40:26,560 --> 02:40:28,640
children. 
I thought, what in the world and

2676
02:40:28,680 --> 02:40:33,440
I, I couldn't. 
That was December 2019. 

2677
02:40:33,880 --> 02:40:38,240
And I at that moment realized I 
have to figure this out and I 

2678
02:40:38,240 --> 02:40:42,600
have to understand it because 
there is no way that this is 

2679
02:40:42,600 --> 02:40:46,320
happening in the faith that I 
know that I love, that gave me 

2680
02:40:46,320 --> 02:40:49,600
comfort as a child, that made me
feel like Jesus Christ loved me 

2681
02:40:49,600 --> 02:40:52,840
and that, you know, my family 
was going to be together forever

2682
02:40:52,840 --> 02:40:55,200
and taught to be kind and we're 
all brothers and sisters. 

2683
02:40:55,200 --> 02:41:02,160
Like this is foreign to me. 
And so for the past five and a 

2684
02:41:02,160 --> 02:41:07,160
half years, I have been trying 
to understand this to the point 

2685
02:41:07,160 --> 02:41:12,280
where we're here today. 
And I have, I have been a true 

2686
02:41:12,280 --> 02:41:16,800
journalist and I have discovered
all of those things you just 

2687
02:41:16,800 --> 02:41:22,440
stated, John, that are my 
beliefs that I grew up with that

2688
02:41:22,440 --> 02:41:24,240
like maybe I didn't process 
that. 

2689
02:41:24,240 --> 02:41:26,440
I refuse to see that I had 
blinders on. 

2690
02:41:27,200 --> 02:41:31,920
And I have found some deep 
humility in the way that I was 

2691
02:41:32,680 --> 02:41:37,640
raised versus other people 
versus what my faith really did 

2692
02:41:37,640 --> 02:41:40,640
and does teach. 
And I have opened myself to 

2693
02:41:40,640 --> 02:41:43,440
understanding how certain 
beliefs that I maybe thought 

2694
02:41:43,440 --> 02:41:46,960
were beautiful can actually be 
really, really harmful. 

2695
02:41:47,680 --> 02:41:52,680
And that's been really valuable 
for me. 

2696
02:41:52,920 --> 02:41:55,960
And I would hope that anyone 
here with any belief they have, 

2697
02:41:55,960 --> 02:42:01,720
whether you are evangelical or 
Mormon or ex Mormon, that like 

2698
02:42:01,880 --> 02:42:07,040
we have enough humility when 
people are starting to be harmed

2699
02:42:07,040 --> 02:42:11,800
over and over and over again 
that we take a look at how even 

2700
02:42:11,800 --> 02:42:14,560
if it, it would never affect us.
And even if the book Visions of 

2701
02:42:14,560 --> 02:42:17,040
Glory inspired you. 
Because I, I think it has 

2702
02:42:17,040 --> 02:42:19,480
inspired people and they didn't 
read that one, you know, I 

2703
02:42:19,480 --> 02:42:22,320
think, and even if the Book of 
Mormon has inspired you, you 

2704
02:42:22,320 --> 02:42:24,960
know, Laban and Lemuel and that 
story is in there too. 

2705
02:42:24,960 --> 02:42:27,280
It's problematic. 
Bible has a lot of problematic 

2706
02:42:27,280 --> 02:42:30,400
stories. 
Like even if you think, no, 

2707
02:42:31,320 --> 02:42:35,480
it's, you know, it's the other, 
it's the other person's problem.

2708
02:42:35,960 --> 02:42:38,240
It's the Mormons who aren't 
Christian. 

2709
02:42:38,840 --> 02:42:43,080
It's, you know, this crazy 
offshoot of Mormonism. 

2710
02:42:43,440 --> 02:42:46,920
It's Christianity. 
I mean, it's so easy to say that

2711
02:42:46,920 --> 02:42:50,920
it's not our belief. 
And I would just hope that if 

2712
02:42:50,920 --> 02:42:54,160
children are being murdered over
and over again, and I read you a

2713
02:42:54,160 --> 02:42:58,040
lot of headlines from a lot of 
different faiths, that maybe we 

2714
02:42:58,040 --> 02:43:03,200
just sit back and eat some 
humble pie and process how 

2715
02:43:03,200 --> 02:43:07,640
extreme beliefs happen and how 
maybe we can not be part of the 

2716
02:43:07,640 --> 02:43:12,720
problem but help it. 
Love it. 

2717
02:43:13,040 --> 02:43:16,400
Hey, man, lots of love coming in
the in the comments for you 

2718
02:43:16,400 --> 02:43:18,760
Lauren and for you Megan 
Perardo. 

2719
02:43:19,280 --> 02:43:23,640
You can't get away without 
sharing your views on on the 

2720
02:43:23,640 --> 02:43:27,520
Mormon Christian angle here. 
So give it to us. 

2721
02:43:28,600 --> 02:43:32,200
Yeah. 
Well, I, I mean, there's very 

2722
02:43:32,200 --> 02:43:35,440
little extra that I could say 
other than just agree with 

2723
02:43:35,440 --> 02:43:42,120
everybody here that, you know, 
definitely Mormonism play a, a, 

2724
02:43:42,120 --> 02:43:47,600
a key role in, in all of this. 
And, and the teachings and, and,

2725
02:43:47,720 --> 02:43:52,120
you know, Laurie and Chad's 
theology could not have been 

2726
02:43:52,120 --> 02:43:58,080
possible if Mormonism wasn't 
there. 

2727
02:43:58,800 --> 02:44:03,400
And, you know, it, Mormonism was
a kind of have this perfect 

2728
02:44:04,040 --> 02:44:10,240
recipe with the with the perfect
key elements to sustain a more, 

2729
02:44:10,960 --> 02:44:17,200
you know, crazy narrative or 
advanced theology that that that

2730
02:44:17,200 --> 02:44:20,600
Chad created and that Lori 
believed in it and that others 

2731
02:44:20,600 --> 02:44:24,480
believed in, you know, like 
Slema and Alex and Melanie, they

2732
02:44:24,480 --> 02:44:29,200
all believed in it and they all 
were raised in mainstream LDS. 

2733
02:44:29,560 --> 02:44:34,720
So there was, there was 
something there that that 

2734
02:44:34,720 --> 02:44:39,120
brought this to happen. 
You know, and I, I, I agree with

2735
02:44:39,200 --> 02:44:43,440
with Lauren that there are these
type of cases in, in a lot of 

2736
02:44:43,440 --> 02:44:47,880
other religions as well. 
It is kind of interesting that 

2737
02:44:47,880 --> 02:44:50,360
Mormonism keeps breeding this 
type of people. 

2738
02:44:50,360 --> 02:44:54,880
You know, we have Ruby, Frankie,
Jodi, Hildebrand and and others.

2739
02:44:54,880 --> 02:44:58,760
You know, we, we, we don't go by
a few months without seeing a 

2740
02:44:58,760 --> 02:45:04,240
headline of a Mormon healing 
their spouse and, and, and those

2741
02:45:04,240 --> 02:45:05,280
sort of cases. 
So. 

2742
02:45:05,640 --> 02:45:09,400
And Gerardo, if I could just 
add, I, I've had many clients 

2743
02:45:09,400 --> 02:45:14,640
come to me and tell me that, you
know, either they received 

2744
02:45:14,640 --> 02:45:20,200
revelation that their spouse was
going to die or their spouse 

2745
02:45:20,200 --> 02:45:22,880
received revelation that they 
were going to die. 

2746
02:45:23,320 --> 02:45:28,240
For some reason, it's very, very
common in Mormonism her spouses 

2747
02:45:28,240 --> 02:45:31,680
to re receive revelation that 
the other is going to die and 

2748
02:45:31,680 --> 02:45:35,320
often times to have insurance 
policies accordingly. 

2749
02:45:35,320 --> 02:45:37,240
I just want to say it happens a 
lot. 

2750
02:45:37,720 --> 02:45:41,920
Not to mention all these deaths 
of wives of Mormon dentists. 

2751
02:45:41,920 --> 02:45:43,160
You know what I mean, 
orthodontist. 

2752
02:45:43,160 --> 02:45:44,800
But go ahead, Gerardo. 
I just want to throw it in 

2753
02:45:44,800 --> 02:45:45,680
there. 
Yeah. 

2754
02:45:45,960 --> 02:45:47,640
Well, that, that that's, that's 
all. 

2755
02:45:47,640 --> 02:45:49,920
That's all I I I'd wanted to 
add. 

2756
02:45:50,320 --> 02:45:53,520
OK, Yeah. 
What one, one piece that that I 

2757
02:45:53,520 --> 02:45:56,920
think was alluded to that I 
would add to my rant is the 

2758
02:45:56,920 --> 02:46:03,200
belief that the the response to 
the behavior that is coming from

2759
02:46:03,200 --> 02:46:09,000
allegedly demonic possession 
isn't taking them to the ER or 

2760
02:46:09,000 --> 02:46:12,600
to the behavioral health unit or
to the psychiatrist. 

2761
02:46:12,960 --> 02:46:17,520
It's priesthood blessings. 
Like we know that Jodi 

2762
02:46:17,520 --> 02:46:20,680
Hildebrand, when she claims she 
was having demonic possessions, 

2763
02:46:21,120 --> 02:46:25,480
they didn't take her to the UNI 
up at the University of Utah to 

2764
02:46:25,760 --> 02:46:28,320
admit her to the psych ward. 
What did they do? 

2765
02:46:28,560 --> 02:46:32,760
They called the Mormon Bishop 
and the Mormon Bishop tried to 

2766
02:46:33,280 --> 02:46:36,680
heal her and he couldn't. 
We know that they were calling 

2767
02:46:37,440 --> 02:46:39,680
Brad. 
What's I always forget his name.

2768
02:46:39,680 --> 02:46:41,880
What's the Young Men's 
presidency member? 

2769
02:46:41,880 --> 02:46:44,160
Brad Wilcox. 
They were calling Brad Wilcox. 

2770
02:46:44,160 --> 02:46:47,600
They were calling Jeremy Yagi, a
general authority for the Mormon

2771
02:46:47,600 --> 02:46:50,880
Church. 
They were having Kevin Frankie 

2772
02:46:51,200 --> 02:46:56,000
perform priesthood blessings. 
If you or your loved one is 

2773
02:46:56,000 --> 02:47:00,640
experiencing demonic possession,
take them to the ER. 

2774
02:47:01,000 --> 02:47:05,200
Take them to the behavioral 
health unit at your local 

2775
02:47:05,200 --> 02:47:09,840
hospital. 
Do not call your ministering 

2776
02:47:09,840 --> 02:47:12,560
elders. 
Do not call your home teachers. 

2777
02:47:12,760 --> 02:47:15,440
Don't call your Bishop. 
Don't call grandpa. 

2778
02:47:15,720 --> 02:47:20,080
Don't call the patriarch. 
Take them to the ER. 

2779
02:47:20,400 --> 02:47:25,800
You can save a life that way. 
Those children of Ruby Frankie's

2780
02:47:26,000 --> 02:47:29,720
may not have been tortured if 
Jodi Hildebrand had been taken 

2781
02:47:29,720 --> 02:47:31,720
to the UNI at the University of 
Utah. 

2782
02:47:32,360 --> 02:47:38,800
And these children and these 
adults may not have died if, if 

2783
02:47:38,960 --> 02:47:44,440
Zulema or Melanie or whoever, 
once they heard Chad or or Lori 

2784
02:47:45,000 --> 02:47:48,400
talking about spirits and 
possessions and light and dark 

2785
02:47:48,880 --> 02:47:52,080
and zombies, if they just hadn't
been turned into the police or 

2786
02:47:52,080 --> 02:47:55,520
taken to the loony bin, to the 
mental health units. 

2787
02:47:55,800 --> 02:48:02,320
I think we've made the point. 
OK, to close out this interview,

2788
02:48:02,320 --> 02:48:09,440
there are a couple other dark or
weird things that I noted. 1 11 

2789
02:48:09,440 --> 02:48:13,960
was just just this revelation 
that for both the deaths of JJ 

2790
02:48:13,960 --> 02:48:19,040
and Ty Lee, the investigators 
felt like they were two person 

2791
02:48:19,040 --> 02:48:21,800
jobs. 
Was that that probably wasn't 

2792
02:48:21,800 --> 02:48:23,800
news to any of you. 
Is that correct? 

2793
02:48:24,560 --> 02:48:27,640
That that for everyone on the 
panel was pretty obvious that 

2794
02:48:27,640 --> 02:48:31,840
both of those murders were 
likely to be and probably I 

2795
02:48:31,840 --> 02:48:35,360
don't know about Tammy, but but 
did you all agree that both the 

2796
02:48:35,360 --> 02:48:39,320
JJ and the Ty Lee murders were 
likely two people jobs? 

2797
02:48:40,080 --> 02:48:42,920
Yes, and, and they said that 
about Tammy as well. 

2798
02:48:42,920 --> 02:48:46,720
And my Uncle Rex pointed out 
that Alex was pretty incompetent

2799
02:48:47,160 --> 02:48:52,760
unless he had help, you know. 
And so he was alone in the, in 

2800
02:48:52,760 --> 02:48:54,640
the attempted shooting of 
Brandon Boudreaux. 

2801
02:48:54,640 --> 02:48:57,600
He was alone in the, in the 
initial attempted shooting of 

2802
02:48:57,600 --> 02:49:00,320
Tammy. 
And he messed both of those up 

2803
02:49:00,320 --> 02:49:01,560
at any time. 
He had help. 

2804
02:49:01,560 --> 02:49:04,960
He was successful. 
Well, that's a good point. 

2805
02:49:07,080 --> 02:49:08,160
Anything you want to add to 
that, Lauren? 

2806
02:49:09,560 --> 02:49:11,960
No, Yeah, but what? 
Megan said. 

2807
02:49:12,400 --> 02:49:14,760
I'm getting called up for using 
the term looney bin. 

2808
02:49:15,080 --> 02:49:16,840
It's just a little bit of 
rhetoric. 

2809
02:49:17,360 --> 02:49:19,520
Of course. 
I mean, like I said, the 

2810
02:49:19,520 --> 02:49:22,880
behavioral health unit of your 
local hospital or a 

2811
02:49:22,880 --> 02:49:25,600
psychiatrist. 
I was doing a little bit of 

2812
02:49:25,600 --> 02:49:27,840
rhetoric. 
Quack House. 

2813
02:49:28,000 --> 02:49:29,720
Yeah, whatever. 
Yeah, there you go. 

2814
02:49:32,360 --> 02:49:40,200
What about the part where Lori 
says to Keith, when I, when I, 

2815
02:49:40,200 --> 02:49:43,000
when I'm proven to be right, I'm
going to tell you I told you so.

2816
02:49:43,400 --> 02:49:46,520
So there was sort of this hubris
that she had. 

2817
02:49:46,520 --> 02:49:50,240
Maybe we've already made enough 
points about Laurie, but but 

2818
02:49:50,240 --> 02:49:52,960
there's that just moment where 
she's like, someday when you see

2819
02:49:52,960 --> 02:49:56,880
that I'm right, Jesus is going 
to save me and Chad, and then 

2820
02:49:56,880 --> 02:50:00,080
I'm going to say I told you so, 
Keith, that that was just a 

2821
02:50:00,080 --> 02:50:04,560
little bit over the top for me. 
Maybe we've already made that 

2822
02:50:04,560 --> 02:50:11,040
point enough. 
Yeah, I mean, I sorry, I don't 

2823
02:50:11,040 --> 02:50:12,880
want to interrupt you. 
Oh, please, Megan. 

2824
02:50:13,640 --> 02:50:17,320
No, I just, I just want to say 
yeah, I mean, yeah, we, we've, 

2825
02:50:17,320 --> 02:50:19,360
we've made the top, we've made 
the point. 

2826
02:50:19,360 --> 02:50:20,880
So. 
Sorry, yeah. 

2827
02:50:22,320 --> 02:50:26,680
And then and then maybe really 
disturbing was the end when 

2828
02:50:26,680 --> 02:50:30,960
there's this joke about dancing 
and, and Keith says you're very 

2829
02:50:30,960 --> 02:50:32,840
good at dancing, I think to 
Lori. 

2830
02:50:33,680 --> 02:50:36,800
And Lori basically says, when 
I'm exonerated, when all this is

2831
02:50:36,800 --> 02:50:40,200
over, maybe I'll go on Dancing 
with the Stars. 

2832
02:50:40,200 --> 02:50:44,520
Like we're talking about deaths 
of her own children, of people 

2833
02:50:44,520 --> 02:50:49,040
close to of her own former 
husband, of other people to make

2834
02:50:49,040 --> 02:50:54,920
jokes about going on Dancing 
with the Stars was just so dark.

2835
02:50:55,280 --> 02:50:59,360
It was such a powerful way to 
end the interview. 

2836
02:51:01,760 --> 02:51:06,760
It also it also made me wonder 
if he has she has been following

2837
02:51:06,760 --> 02:51:14,040
or or or heard about these other
tribe of Froster figures, you 

2838
02:51:14,040 --> 02:51:18,760
know, like Anna Delvy, who have 
gone out of jail and going 

2839
02:51:18,760 --> 02:51:22,400
Dancing with the Stars. 
But that's just something. 

2840
02:51:22,400 --> 02:51:25,880
I wonder when she said that. 
Yeah. 

2841
02:51:26,560 --> 02:51:29,840
Yeah, it's just another, it's 
it's another testament to me 

2842
02:51:29,840 --> 02:51:33,560
that she really believes that 
people love her and that she 

2843
02:51:33,560 --> 02:51:36,760
really believes that she's going
to be exonerated, get out of 

2844
02:51:36,760 --> 02:51:39,560
prison someday and be a 
celebrity and everyone's going 

2845
02:51:39,560 --> 02:51:40,800
to worship her. 
Yeah. 

2846
02:51:41,880 --> 02:51:44,760
Lauren, any other final comments
regarding any of that? 

2847
02:51:45,960 --> 02:51:47,440
No, no. 
Concur. 

2848
02:51:47,800 --> 02:51:51,480
Something that we didn't touch, 
touch John, was the idea. 

2849
02:51:51,840 --> 02:51:59,440
What when she denies the 
doctrine of light and dark and 

2850
02:51:59,440 --> 02:52:03,160
zombies, didn't that happen? 
When she's asking, she says no 

2851
02:52:03,160 --> 02:52:04,240
other than not. 
We don't. 

2852
02:52:04,960 --> 02:52:07,120
We don't believe that or that 
didn't happen. 

2853
02:52:07,240 --> 02:52:12,680
Chad didn't rate light or dark. 
I did notice that, I just 

2854
02:52:12,680 --> 02:52:16,480
chalked that up to her lying and
denying all the facts. 

2855
02:52:16,480 --> 02:52:18,320
Lauren, Lauren and Megan. 
Did y'all have any other 

2856
02:52:18,520 --> 02:52:21,000
reactions to that? 
It was interesting. 

2857
02:52:21,000 --> 02:52:23,520
If anything, I think it shows a 
little bit of even more 

2858
02:52:23,520 --> 02:52:26,840
deception with her because she 
did once mention, oh, she 

2859
02:52:26,840 --> 02:52:29,480
mentioned in Colby's interview 
with him, too, that she's like, 

2860
02:52:29,480 --> 02:52:31,480
I've never mentioned zombies. 
That's not my thing. 

2861
02:52:31,880 --> 02:52:33,720
And if you look back at her 
texts, she'll refer to them as 

2862
02:52:33,720 --> 02:52:36,400
Z's. 
I'm like, oh, was she really 

2863
02:52:36,400 --> 02:52:39,280
trying to avoid responsibility 
here? 

2864
02:52:39,280 --> 02:52:42,360
Like, she knew what that meant 
and she wasn't texting it 

2865
02:52:42,920 --> 02:52:44,840
because she certainly believed 
in it. 

2866
02:52:44,840 --> 02:52:48,400
We've had witnesses testifying 
like Melanie Gibbs that she 

2867
02:52:48,400 --> 02:52:53,560
actually absolutely called, you 
know, called Tylie a zombie and 

2868
02:52:53,560 --> 02:52:59,040
that Melanie Gibb was there when
Chad de Bell called Lori to say,

2869
02:52:59,040 --> 02:53:03,760
hey, by the way, Chad is or 
excuse me, Charles Ballow is Ned

2870
02:53:03,760 --> 02:53:09,120
Schneider, you know, in other 
words, zombie, you know, so I 

2871
02:53:09,120 --> 02:53:11,760
think it's kind of fascinating 
thing, like is she just trying 

2872
02:53:11,760 --> 02:53:13,600
to like avoid that word? 
And then the light and dark 

2873
02:53:13,600 --> 02:53:16,760
scale that was taught to her, I 
think by Chad. 

2874
02:53:16,760 --> 02:53:21,560
We have emails from Chad and it 
says, per your request, Lori, 

2875
02:53:21,560 --> 02:53:23,520
here's your here's your whole 
family history. 

2876
02:53:23,520 --> 02:53:27,040
And then he labels each person 
light or dark, complete with 

2877
02:53:27,040 --> 02:53:29,200
decimal points. 
And it starts with like, this is

2878
02:53:29,200 --> 02:53:34,480
what you requested. 
So if she's not openly preaching

2879
02:53:34,480 --> 02:53:38,320
it, she certainly believes it. 
But I have wondered like is she 

2880
02:53:38,320 --> 02:53:42,520
trying to avoid talking about 
light and dark and zombies to 

2881
02:53:42,520 --> 02:53:44,840
kind of claim that she doesn't 
believe this? 

2882
02:53:44,840 --> 02:53:49,280
It an interesting idea. 
There's also the, I mean, this 

2883
02:53:49,280 --> 02:53:53,440
would be speculative, of course,
and maybe a little bit 

2884
02:53:53,440 --> 02:53:56,920
conspiratorial, but it did 
remind me a little bit of when 

2885
02:53:56,920 --> 02:54:00,640
the LDS Church on their website 
says we don't believe that 

2886
02:54:00,640 --> 02:54:05,160
people are going to have their 
own planets, you know, kind of 

2887
02:54:05,160 --> 02:54:07,320
things. 
Or like the idea that when 

2888
02:54:07,320 --> 02:54:10,640
you're talking to other people 
about your theology, you have to

2889
02:54:10,640 --> 02:54:13,520
talk to them about the milk 
before the meat. 

2890
02:54:13,520 --> 02:54:16,640
Because if you, you know, talk 
about this terms like that, 

2891
02:54:17,000 --> 02:54:19,600
there might Mr. they, they're 
not going to understand it 

2892
02:54:19,600 --> 02:54:21,880
because they, they're not 
spiritual enough. 

2893
02:54:22,040 --> 02:54:24,560
Or it'll make the OR it'll make 
the church look bad, right? 

2894
02:54:24,960 --> 02:54:27,680
Yeah, so there's this kind of 
denial, even though they 

2895
02:54:27,880 --> 02:54:32,600
actually believe that that more 
that there might become gods and

2896
02:54:32,600 --> 02:54:34,480
and, and create their own 
planets. 

2897
02:54:35,120 --> 02:54:41,920
Yeah. 
All right, Well, really quickly,

2898
02:54:41,920 --> 02:54:45,280
what can we see, Lori? 
Lori's going to be representing 

2899
02:54:45,280 --> 02:54:51,160
herself in this trial coming up.
Lauren and Megan, I imagine 

2900
02:54:51,160 --> 02:54:52,960
y'all will be covering it 
closely. 

2901
02:54:53,480 --> 02:54:55,920
We'd love to have you back at 
important points. 

2902
02:54:56,440 --> 02:54:59,000
We of course want to remind 
everyone to please subscribe to 

2903
02:54:59,000 --> 02:55:00,920
Hidden True Crime YouTube 
channel. 

2904
02:55:01,080 --> 02:55:06,360
Please subscribe to third verse 
slash Midlife Revolution Megan 

2905
02:55:06,360 --> 02:55:09,360
Connor YouTube channel. 
They're both important channels.

2906
02:55:10,600 --> 02:55:13,680
Please support their good work. 
Lauren and Megan, will you all 

2907
02:55:13,680 --> 02:55:18,480
be covering, I imagine, Laurie's
trial and is there anything you 

2908
02:55:18,480 --> 02:55:20,920
want to say about the prospects 
knowing that she's going to be 

2909
02:55:20,920 --> 02:55:25,320
representing herself? 
Yeah, I'm glad you're bringing 

2910
02:55:25,320 --> 02:55:29,360
up the trial. 
I think that a lot of people are

2911
02:55:29,360 --> 02:55:31,480
very fascinated for stuff I want
to say because Lori is 

2912
02:55:31,480 --> 02:55:33,960
representing herself, and that's
certainly intriguing. 

2913
02:55:34,000 --> 02:55:38,720
I'm just with everyone else, 
like, this is going to be quite 

2914
02:55:38,720 --> 02:55:40,520
the show, like, what is going to
happen. 

2915
02:55:41,840 --> 02:55:46,160
But I also think this is also, 
this is about justice for 

2916
02:55:46,160 --> 02:55:47,640
Charles Valo. 
And some people say, well, it 

2917
02:55:47,640 --> 02:55:50,200
doesn't matter because she's 
behind bars forever. 

2918
02:55:50,200 --> 02:55:54,880
I mean, justice is a 
theological, you know, this 

2919
02:55:55,080 --> 02:55:58,200
justice isn't necessarily like, 
oh, she's behind bars forever. 

2920
02:55:58,200 --> 02:56:00,000
What's this going to do? 
Is she going to be punished 

2921
02:56:00,000 --> 02:56:01,320
more? 
Justice isn't about punishment. 

2922
02:56:01,320 --> 02:56:06,400
Justice is about the belief in 
like acknowledging that what 

2923
02:56:06,400 --> 02:56:09,480
happened to Charles, you know, 
isn't, isn't OK and for her to 

2924
02:56:09,480 --> 02:56:12,080
be being held responsible 
whether she's already through 

2925
02:56:12,080 --> 02:56:14,520
serving 3 consecutive life 
sentences or not. 

2926
02:56:14,520 --> 02:56:17,000
And Charles Vallo sounded the 
alarm. 

2927
02:56:17,280 --> 02:56:21,400
And if people had listened to 
him, he, you know, no JJ and 

2928
02:56:21,400 --> 02:56:25,400
Kylie would still be alive. 
And Kate Woodcock, that is 

2929
02:56:25,400 --> 02:56:30,520
Charles Vallo's sister. 
She has stated, you know, he was

2930
02:56:30,520 --> 02:56:33,280
the first one murdered. 
But she has stated that Charles 

2931
02:56:33,280 --> 02:56:35,280
would have wanted it this way. 
He would have said, you know, 

2932
02:56:35,280 --> 02:56:38,200
make sure that Ty Lee and JJ and
the children and Tammy get just 

2933
02:56:38,200 --> 02:56:42,000
his first, worry about me later.
And that that's would have been 

2934
02:56:42,360 --> 02:56:44,160
what Charles would have said and
who he was. 

2935
02:56:44,200 --> 02:56:49,640
And he, this trial is important 
for justice for Charles. 

2936
02:56:50,080 --> 02:56:52,720
And I also think that we might 
see some really different 

2937
02:56:52,720 --> 02:56:56,280
evidence in this trial. 
The evidence that has come out 

2938
02:56:56,280 --> 02:56:59,440
already of Chandler, AZ and 
Gilbert, AZ is much different 

2939
02:56:59,800 --> 02:57:03,480
than what the the evidence is in
Idaho. 

2940
02:57:03,480 --> 02:57:06,960
You have text messages between 
the Cox families, Summer and 

2941
02:57:06,960 --> 02:57:12,760
Janice and Lori all discussing 
and seemingly possibly what did 

2942
02:57:12,760 --> 02:57:14,200
they know? 
What did they not know? 

2943
02:57:14,440 --> 02:57:15,840
It's going to be very 
interesting. 

2944
02:57:15,840 --> 02:57:18,960
And of course, with Lori 
representing herself, I'm very 

2945
02:57:18,960 --> 02:57:21,080
intrigued. 
I haven't seen her get angry in 

2946
02:57:21,080 --> 02:57:24,320
court yet, but seeing how angry 
she got towards Keith Morrison, 

2947
02:57:24,320 --> 02:57:28,440
asking all of the questions we 
want to know, I wonder how long 

2948
02:57:28,440 --> 02:57:31,680
it's going to be before she 
loses it in in court. 

2949
02:57:31,680 --> 02:57:34,040
So yeah, I plan to be there. 
I'm actually also heading to 

2950
02:57:34,040 --> 02:57:40,360
Arizona for a hearing this week,
and so I'll be seeing you there,

2951
02:57:40,440 --> 02:57:42,640
Megan and everyone else covering
the trial. 

2952
02:57:43,280 --> 02:57:45,840
Rebecca Lovelace, our friend is 
asking when? 

2953
02:57:45,840 --> 02:57:49,120
When is the trial? 
Hey Rebecca, we love having you 

2954
02:57:49,120 --> 02:57:52,040
with us. 
Lauren, Megan, when is the trial

2955
02:57:52,040 --> 02:57:56,080
again? 
So Lori has a status conference 

2956
02:57:56,080 --> 02:58:00,400
on Tuesday and then jury 
selection is scheduled to begin 

2957
02:58:00,400 --> 02:58:04,000
on the 31st of March. 
The prosecution has said jury 

2958
02:58:04,000 --> 02:58:08,520
selection should take two weeks,
but possibly 3, just 'cause they

2959
02:58:08,520 --> 02:58:11,800
don't know how Lori is going to 
behave during that, not really 

2960
02:58:11,800 --> 02:58:13,400
knowing the process and the 
rules. 

2961
02:58:13,920 --> 02:58:17,040
And then the prosecution has 
said they probably will take 

2962
02:58:17,040 --> 02:58:19,640
about two weeks to present their
case, but we don't have an 

2963
02:58:19,640 --> 02:58:23,320
estimate yet from Lori on how 
long she thinks she will take. 

2964
02:58:23,760 --> 02:58:27,360
So yes, the fact she's 
representing herself is 

2965
02:58:27,360 --> 02:58:30,440
interesting and she has been 
respectful of the judge and the 

2966
02:58:30,440 --> 02:58:33,760
process so far. 
She's filed several motions, all

2967
02:58:33,760 --> 02:58:35,400
of which have been denied so 
far. 

2968
02:58:35,400 --> 02:58:38,480
I think Tuesday we're going to 
hear about the judge. 

2969
02:58:38,720 --> 02:58:41,440
The judge is going to rule on 
the motion about whether or not 

2970
02:58:41,440 --> 02:58:44,960
to allow court TV to have 
cameras in the courtroom and to 

2971
02:58:44,960 --> 02:58:48,800
live stream the child. 
So we'll hear about that on 

2972
02:58:48,800 --> 02:58:53,960
Tuesday and, and then we'll hear
the judges actually has denied 

2973
02:58:53,960 --> 02:58:56,480
all of Lori's motion so far to 
dismiss the case. 

2974
02:58:57,200 --> 02:58:59,640
And so we'll just, we'll have to
wait and see. 

2975
02:58:59,640 --> 02:59:03,440
I, I agree with you, Lauren. 
She's, she has been even 

2976
02:59:03,440 --> 02:59:05,880
tempered so far. 
But knowing how she responded to

2977
02:59:05,880 --> 02:59:09,720
Keith's questions, I think it's 
pretty likely that she could get

2978
02:59:09,720 --> 02:59:12,760
activated enough that the judge 
is going to say sorry, you're 

2979
02:59:12,760 --> 02:59:15,200
going to have to be reassigned 
counsel, and you're not going to

2980
02:59:15,200 --> 02:59:18,160
be allowed to represent yourself
anymore, depending on how she 

2981
02:59:18,160 --> 02:59:20,440
goes. 
Yeah. 

2982
02:59:22,240 --> 02:59:24,120
Does she want Court TV to be 
there? 

2983
02:59:24,720 --> 02:59:27,240
She does not. 
She's very angry with Court TV. 

2984
02:59:27,240 --> 02:59:30,640
She says that Court TV has been 
exploiting her and her husband 

2985
02:59:30,640 --> 02:59:36,480
for a 24/7 commercial and that 
Court TV is taking advantage of 

2986
02:59:36,480 --> 02:59:39,800
people and, you know, exploiting
them for the tragedies that 

2987
02:59:39,800 --> 02:59:41,680
happened in their lives. 
And now we know a little bit 

2988
02:59:41,680 --> 02:59:43,560
more insight on what she means 
by that. 

2989
02:59:43,840 --> 02:59:47,800
She basically is asserting that 
it's been a tragedy, that she's 

2990
02:59:47,800 --> 02:59:51,760
lost so many people in her life 
and that the media likes to 

2991
02:59:51,760 --> 02:59:55,280
twist it and turn it into crime.
Interesting. 

2992
02:59:56,720 --> 03:00:00,640
Well, I promised all our super 
chatters that I would go through

2993
03:00:00,640 --> 03:00:02,720
their questions or comments and 
share them. 

2994
03:00:03,200 --> 03:00:04,800
Hopefully I'll do it really 
fast. 

2995
03:00:05,200 --> 03:00:08,400
I want to remind everyone, 
please like this episode, we've 

2996
03:00:08,400 --> 03:00:12,200
got still 4600 people joined. 
Please like this episode, please

2997
03:00:12,200 --> 03:00:14,520
comment on it. 
Please subscribe to Mormon 

2998
03:00:14,520 --> 03:00:17,200
Stories podcast. 
Please share this, it will 

2999
03:00:17,200 --> 03:00:21,680
really help get the word out. 
I think only, I think only 2000 

3000
03:00:21,680 --> 03:00:25,120
people have liked the episode 
and there's over almost 5000 

3001
03:00:25,120 --> 03:00:27,960
people watching. 
Yeah, so please, please take the

3002
03:00:27,960 --> 03:00:29,720
time really quick to like this 
episode. 

3003
03:00:30,120 --> 03:00:33,520
We've Gerardo's been doing some 
analytics and he can show that 

3004
03:00:33,520 --> 03:00:37,880
likes and comments are what 
drive the success of an episode 

3005
03:00:38,720 --> 03:00:41,240
really quickly. 
Lauren and Megan and Gerardo 

3006
03:00:41,400 --> 03:00:44,960
you've already given us 3 hours 
if y'all want or need to drop 

3007
03:00:44,960 --> 03:00:49,360
off I will let I will let you do
that now unless you want to stay

3008
03:00:49,360 --> 03:00:52,520
on and respond to a few of these
super chats. 

3009
03:00:52,520 --> 03:00:54,240
Lauren, Lauren, do you need to 
run or are you going to stick 

3010
03:00:54,240 --> 03:00:57,360
around? 
I'll stick around for a bit. 

3011
03:00:57,360 --> 03:00:59,200
I might. 
I might sneak out for a little 

3012
03:00:59,200 --> 03:01:01,280
restroom break, but I'll just. 
OK. 

3013
03:01:01,560 --> 03:01:02,800
Yeah. 
But I won't. 

3014
03:01:03,280 --> 03:01:04,520
Yeah. 
Me and you're OK? 

3015
03:01:05,000 --> 03:01:07,840
I'm the same I may I may have to
sneak out for a restroom break 

3016
03:01:07,840 --> 03:01:09,320
but I'll I'll stick around. 
Right. 

3017
03:01:09,320 --> 03:01:10,520
Are you all right? 
Yeah. 

3018
03:01:10,800 --> 03:01:12,000
OK. 
We're going to do these super 

3019
03:01:12,000 --> 03:01:15,120
chats, hopefully really quick 
because we really appreciate the

3020
03:01:15,120 --> 03:01:17,040
donations that make all this 
possible. 

3021
03:01:18,000 --> 03:01:22,440
So Destiny Salazar says Keith's 
body language was telling. 

3022
03:01:22,760 --> 03:01:25,480
Seemed like he couldn't wait to 
leap out of his seat. 

3023
03:01:25,720 --> 03:01:28,920
And I'm going to ask you guys as
panelists, just jump in if 

3024
03:01:28,920 --> 03:01:35,320
you've got responses or I'll 
just jump on to the next to the 

3025
03:01:35,320 --> 03:01:41,360
next episode. 
Troublemaker Baker says these 

3026
03:01:41,360 --> 03:01:43,200
are great observations for 
Megan. 

3027
03:01:43,840 --> 03:01:50,960
Also, I think Troublemaker Baker
is also Broken Baker on YouTube.

3028
03:01:51,320 --> 03:01:57,960
I'm told that I'm told that he 
trouble Broken Baker when he 

3029
03:01:58,120 --> 03:02:02,560
finished his own episode about 
this stuff, he pointed people in

3030
03:02:02,560 --> 03:02:04,880
our direction. 
And if that's true. 

3031
03:02:05,360 --> 03:02:11,120
Troublemaker Baker is actually a
moderator on my channel and it's

3032
03:02:11,120 --> 03:02:14,520
AP and she actually does have a 
channel as well, but it is 

3033
03:02:14,520 --> 03:02:16,360
Troublemaker Baker. 
Got it. 

3034
03:02:16,400 --> 03:02:20,760
OK, well, thanks to Troublemaker
Baker for her support. 

3035
03:02:20,760 --> 03:02:23,880
We really appreciate it. 
And also thank you to Broken 

3036
03:02:23,880 --> 03:02:27,320
Baker for their support. 
Really quickly, I told you all 

3037
03:02:27,320 --> 03:02:32,760
that Nathan Hinckley was doing a
service project and fixing up 

3038
03:02:32,760 --> 03:02:44,400
the home of Anna Schreyer. 
The the The Assemblies of God 

3039
03:02:44,400 --> 03:02:49,800
slash. 
What's the term? 

3040
03:02:52,080 --> 03:02:54,040
Pentecostal. 
Pentecostal Yeah. 

3041
03:02:54,320 --> 03:02:57,400
Story that we had. 
This is a photo of the chimney 

3042
03:02:57,400 --> 03:03:01,440
before Nathan's work, and I 
believe his son's helping him 

3043
03:03:01,440 --> 03:03:04,520
out, maybe his wife. 
This is them working on it. 

3044
03:03:04,960 --> 03:03:08,200
And while we've been doing this 
episode, this is them finishing 

3045
03:03:08,200 --> 03:03:11,440
the job and then this is them 
outside. 

3046
03:03:11,440 --> 03:03:15,040
This is Nathan and I'm assuming 
family members along with Anna 

3047
03:03:15,040 --> 03:03:19,760
Schreyer there in the middle. 
Again, we're sharing this just 

3048
03:03:19,760 --> 03:03:24,120
as a way to share some light and
some happiness in an otherwise 

3049
03:03:24,600 --> 03:03:27,920
dark episode. 
Want to thank Nathan. 

3050
03:03:28,160 --> 03:03:31,200
He's got a channel called The 
Bishops Interview on YouTube. 

3051
03:03:32,440 --> 03:03:36,600
And we want to thank Nathan and 
his family for bringing a little

3052
03:03:36,600 --> 03:03:39,560
light into the world. 
So thanks. 

3053
03:03:39,880 --> 03:03:43,440
Thanks again for that, everyone.
All right, we'll go back to the 

3054
03:03:43,440 --> 03:03:47,760
comments. 
Miss Mojo Rising says, do you 

3055
03:03:47,760 --> 03:03:53,720
feel she resented blamed Ty Lee 
and JJ for holding her back, AKA

3056
03:03:54,240 --> 03:03:59,160
Laurie didn't want didn't want 
to be an actor. 

3057
03:03:59,160 --> 03:04:02,640
I'm not exactly sure I 
understand other than Megan. 

3058
03:04:02,640 --> 03:04:07,880
It looks like Miss Mojo Rising 
is just feeling like Lori wanted

3059
03:04:07,880 --> 03:04:11,560
more out of her life and that 
maybe Tylee and JJ were getting 

3060
03:04:11,560 --> 03:04:13,080
in the way. 
What do you think about that 

3061
03:04:13,080 --> 03:04:16,000
theory? 
Yeah, so she, she did want to be

3062
03:04:16,000 --> 03:04:17,960
a model. 
She she actually did some 

3063
03:04:17,960 --> 03:04:21,360
modeling in her late teenage 
years, you know, had a portfolio

3064
03:04:21,360 --> 03:04:23,560
and and all of that. 
I don't know about her wanting 

3065
03:04:23,560 --> 03:04:26,720
to be an actor, but it wouldn't 
surprise me if she wanted to be 

3066
03:04:26,720 --> 03:04:30,560
famous. 
And I, and I do think that there

3067
03:04:30,560 --> 03:04:33,880
is an element in the 
relationship between her and 

3068
03:04:33,880 --> 03:04:37,080
Tylee where she was threatened 
by Ty Lee's beauty, she was 

3069
03:04:37,080 --> 03:04:39,000
threatened by Ty Lee's 
intelligence. 

3070
03:04:39,400 --> 03:04:42,880
And there is this Jungian 
concept of the devouring mother,

3071
03:04:42,880 --> 03:04:48,200
the mother who refuses to allow 
their child to grow or to or to 

3072
03:04:48,200 --> 03:04:50,720
learn or to have their own 
dreams or their own life. 

3073
03:04:50,720 --> 03:04:55,960
And so the mother sort of 
hobbles their child's ambition 

3074
03:04:55,960 --> 03:04:59,520
and their self worth and their 
self belief so that the child 

3075
03:04:59,520 --> 03:05:03,960
doesn't outshine the mother. 
And I think that's probably a 

3076
03:05:03,960 --> 03:05:06,800
lot of what happened in Lori and
Ty Lee's relationship. 

3077
03:05:07,920 --> 03:05:10,760
Yeah, that makes sense. 
And it's tragic and sad. 

3078
03:05:11,600 --> 03:05:16,360
I mean, I guess another another 
thing is like religions 

3079
03:05:17,000 --> 03:05:21,280
sometimes really push people and
I'd say women to have kids that 

3080
03:05:21,280 --> 03:05:24,240
maybe they wouldn't otherwise 
have or want to have. 

3081
03:05:25,400 --> 03:05:29,720
You know, maybe, maybe, maybe we
shouldn't push people to have 

3082
03:05:30,200 --> 03:05:34,240
kids as much as as we do. 
Maybe some people shouldn't have

3083
03:05:34,240 --> 03:05:36,520
kids, you know? 
Some people should never be 

3084
03:05:36,520 --> 03:05:39,560
mothers, that's absolutely true.
Yeah. 

3085
03:05:40,600 --> 03:05:43,800
And I think especially if if 
there are people who don't want 

3086
03:05:43,800 --> 03:05:47,040
to be mothers, they shouldn't be
socially pressured to be 

3087
03:05:47,040 --> 03:05:49,320
mothers. 
Yeah, yeah, that's a really good

3088
03:05:49,320 --> 03:05:52,800
point. 
All right, let's see. 

3089
03:05:53,480 --> 03:05:57,040
Troublemaker Baker says. 
Colby's response to the Dateline

3090
03:05:57,040 --> 03:06:00,160
interview is really interesting.
He's a remarkable young man. 

3091
03:06:01,320 --> 03:06:05,000
I totally love that comment, S 
Moore says. 

3092
03:06:05,040 --> 03:06:08,440
Oh, his live last night on his 
live last night, Colby mentioned

3093
03:06:08,880 --> 03:06:14,520
how Lori blamed Ty Lee even 
before she was born that they 

3094
03:06:14,520 --> 03:06:19,640
had a contentious relationship. 
So that's wow. 

3095
03:06:19,640 --> 03:06:23,080
Colby mentioned how Lori blamed 
Ty Lee before she was born, that

3096
03:06:23,080 --> 03:06:24,640
they had a contentious 
relationship. 

3097
03:06:24,640 --> 03:06:25,840
I don't even know what to make 
of that. 

3098
03:06:26,760 --> 03:06:29,560
I think they're basically 
referring to the fact that, you 

3099
03:06:29,560 --> 03:06:33,800
know, the whole time that Lori 
was pregnant with Tylee, she 

3100
03:06:33,800 --> 03:06:36,840
would talk about what a struggle
it was and how hard it was. 

3101
03:06:36,840 --> 03:06:40,120
And so she blamed Tylee for lots
of things throughout Tylee's 

3102
03:06:40,120 --> 03:06:43,400
life and that they and that they
had a problematic relationship. 

3103
03:06:46,480 --> 03:06:50,240
All right, Missy Ann, thank you 
for the Super chat. 

3104
03:06:50,240 --> 03:06:56,840
Same to you LLCDLCD writes never
MO from Berlin Berlin Germany. 

3105
03:06:57,080 --> 03:06:59,280
Big fan of you guys. 
I love how you discuss these 

3106
03:06:59,280 --> 03:07:01,720
painful topics. 
I learned so much even though 

3107
03:07:01,720 --> 03:07:04,240
this is far away from me 
culturally. 

3108
03:07:04,760 --> 03:07:08,760
I imagine, Lauren, that your 
channel Hidden True Climb Crime 

3109
03:07:09,040 --> 03:07:14,040
is overwhelmingly non LDS or 
never LDS. 

3110
03:07:14,400 --> 03:07:17,160
Have you ever done a poll to 
find out what percentage of your

3111
03:07:17,160 --> 03:07:19,400
audience is either Mormon or ex 
Mormon? 

3112
03:07:19,400 --> 03:07:22,840
Or do you even know? 
I don't know, but when it comes 

3113
03:07:22,840 --> 03:07:25,840
to the day Bell case, there's 
certainly a lot more LDS 

3114
03:07:27,040 --> 03:07:34,000
listeners than not and LDS and 
wonderful, you know, people, I 

3115
03:07:34,000 --> 03:07:37,400
think with the same questions 
that I had, right. 

3116
03:07:37,400 --> 03:07:43,600
I think this is certainly a case
that makes many of us wonder WTF

3117
03:07:43,600 --> 03:07:46,400
and we're trying to understand 
it. 

3118
03:07:46,680 --> 03:07:52,760
And yeah, when we cover this 
case, you know, and when I say 

3119
03:07:52,760 --> 03:07:55,160
LDS, I want to say maybe I 
should say more ex Mormon, 

3120
03:07:55,160 --> 03:08:01,160
active Mormon, both both sides 
of the spectrum for for good 

3121
03:08:01,160 --> 03:08:04,240
reasons and great conversation 
because of it when it when it 

3122
03:08:04,240 --> 03:08:06,200
comes to this case in 
particular. 

3123
03:08:06,840 --> 03:08:08,720
How about you, Megan? 
How about your channel? 

3124
03:08:10,400 --> 03:08:12,520
You know, I, I honestly don't 
know. 

3125
03:08:12,520 --> 03:08:16,800
I suspect that it's probably I. 
I suspect that not many LDS 

3126
03:08:16,800 --> 03:08:21,400
people watch my channel just 
because I do offer a lot of 

3127
03:08:21,400 --> 03:08:25,320
criticism about the culture of 
the church and about the harmful

3128
03:08:25,320 --> 03:08:30,200
doctrines of the church. 
I I do offer you know my opinion

3129
03:08:30,200 --> 03:08:33,680
as an ex Mormon. 
So I doubt that many Mormons 

3130
03:08:33,680 --> 03:08:37,200
want to tune into my channel, 
but I wouldn't be surprised. 

3131
03:08:38,720 --> 03:08:40,120
I guess I just don't know for 
sure. 

3132
03:08:42,960 --> 03:08:46,400
I'm doing a poll right now just 
to see if our current audience, 

3133
03:08:47,040 --> 03:08:50,120
how much of it's LDS, former 
LDS, or never Gerardo, you'll 

3134
03:08:50,120 --> 03:08:54,560
find this interesting as of 233 
votes and I don't know how many 

3135
03:08:54,560 --> 03:09:00,400
is statistically significant, 
you know, with the sample size 

3136
03:09:00,400 --> 03:09:05,720
of 4400, but 78% are saying 
they've never been LDS. 

3137
03:09:06,200 --> 03:09:12,320
That's, that's 3/4 of our 
current audience. 5% identify as

3138
03:09:12,320 --> 03:09:17,280
LDS of the current audience and 
about 20% are former LDS. 

3139
03:09:17,280 --> 03:09:19,400
So. 
I wonder what the poll would be 

3140
03:09:19,400 --> 03:09:22,840
like if you asked Mormon instead
of LDS. 

3141
03:09:24,080 --> 03:09:26,000
Interesting. 
Because that's a spectrum. 

3142
03:09:26,760 --> 03:09:33,040
Yeah, well, I think LDS, former 
LDS are, are never LDS that I 

3143
03:09:33,040 --> 03:09:35,680
think that captures pretty much 
everyone. 

3144
03:09:35,680 --> 03:09:41,320
But I see what you're saying. 
OK, we'll keep voting. 

3145
03:09:41,320 --> 03:09:42,960
Let's see if those numbers 
change. 

3146
03:09:43,480 --> 03:09:46,960
Amor of Alessi says Gerardo is 
sage now. 

3147
03:09:46,960 --> 03:09:50,120
What do you think, Lauren and 
Megan, what vote do you give 

3148
03:09:50,120 --> 03:09:53,240
Gerardo as, like, a alternate 
panel? 

3149
03:09:53,240 --> 03:09:55,400
I mean, we're never going to 
give up on Mindy. 

3150
03:09:55,400 --> 03:09:58,680
Mindy's not going anywhere. 
Gerardo, I'm sorry to tell you, 

3151
03:09:59,160 --> 03:10:03,520
Mindy's not going anywhere. 
But what's our vote for Gerardo 

3152
03:10:03,520 --> 03:10:06,560
as a rotating substitute or 
panelist? 

3153
03:10:07,120 --> 03:10:08,880
Do we want to? 
Do we want to raise our right 

3154
03:10:08,880 --> 03:10:11,880
hands? 
All in favor of Gerardo as a 

3155
03:10:11,880 --> 03:10:13,920
panelist? 
All in favor. 

3156
03:10:14,400 --> 03:10:17,920
Well, I do have to say if if 
this is an audition for the 

3157
03:10:17,920 --> 03:10:21,160
band, Gerardo showed up to the 
audition without a binder, which

3158
03:10:21,160 --> 03:10:23,600
is OK because, you know, that's 
Mindy's thing. 

3159
03:10:24,360 --> 03:10:26,240
I do. 
I love, I love Gerardo's 

3160
03:10:26,240 --> 03:10:29,360
insights and input. 
And you know, from the very 

3161
03:10:29,400 --> 03:10:34,160
beginning, Gerardo, you've had 
some great insights on this case

3162
03:10:34,160 --> 03:10:35,880
and I really appreciate your 
perspective. 

3163
03:10:35,880 --> 03:10:36,520
Thank. 
You. 

3164
03:10:36,920 --> 03:10:40,120
Gerardo Gerardo knows the case. 
He knows the case. 

3165
03:10:40,240 --> 03:10:43,960
So. 
I was just kidding. 

3166
03:10:44,000 --> 03:10:44,720
All right. 
Beautiful. 

3167
03:10:44,720 --> 03:10:46,600
Gerardo. 
Yeah, we agree. 

3168
03:10:46,600 --> 03:10:48,360
Gerardo, you're amazing, Tracy 
says. 

3169
03:10:48,360 --> 03:10:51,520
Do you think Chad believes? 
I think we already answered 

3170
03:10:51,520 --> 03:10:52,360
that. 
Is that right? 

3171
03:10:53,480 --> 03:10:56,840
Thanks for the Super chat. 
Susan Groom writes she told 

3172
03:10:56,840 --> 03:10:58,960
herself these things so many 
times. 

3173
03:10:59,440 --> 03:11:01,880
She believes all these visions 
and revelations. 

3174
03:11:02,360 --> 03:11:07,000
That's Susan voting that. 
That Laurie believes her own 

3175
03:11:07,760 --> 03:11:13,680
delusions or lies. 
Care 4 JCYT says she can't be a 

3176
03:11:13,680 --> 03:11:16,200
bad person. 
So Kylie did it. 

3177
03:11:16,640 --> 03:11:21,000
That's speaking to the sort of 
narcissism idea that narcissists

3178
03:11:21,000 --> 03:11:24,720
just don't take responsibility. 
They have to find someone to 

3179
03:11:24,720 --> 03:11:26,200
blame. 
Again, y'all jump in at any 

3180
03:11:26,200 --> 03:11:27,760
point. 
I'm just going through these. 

3181
03:11:28,480 --> 03:11:32,160
Sally Osling says she's met her 
grandchildren in the spirit 

3182
03:11:32,160 --> 03:11:34,040
world. 
Did y'all hear that one? 

3183
03:11:34,040 --> 03:11:38,280
I didn't know that. 
Wait, what was that? 

3184
03:11:39,080 --> 03:11:41,080
Oh yeah, my brain just called, 
she told. 

3185
03:11:41,080 --> 03:11:45,280
Colby, she told Colby that she 
knew about her grandchild being 

3186
03:11:45,280 --> 03:11:46,880
born and that she. 
Oh, right. 

3187
03:11:47,120 --> 03:11:49,760
Yeah. 
You know, she is sort of similar

3188
03:11:49,760 --> 03:11:54,320
to, you know, talking to Tammy 
Daybell and, you know, knowing 

3189
03:11:54,320 --> 03:11:56,840
what Tylie wanted and that she 
was happy. 

3190
03:11:56,840 --> 03:11:58,200
You know, it's just like the 
same old. 

3191
03:11:58,200 --> 03:12:00,480
So yeah, she she had 
relationships with her 

3192
03:12:00,480 --> 03:12:03,680
grandchildren, too. 
Yeah, she told Colby that she 

3193
03:12:03,680 --> 03:12:08,240
that she held her grandbaby and 
loved her and that the grandbaby

3194
03:12:08,240 --> 03:12:11,000
loved Lori. 
And I think that was sort of a a

3195
03:12:11,000 --> 03:12:14,720
dig to say Colby, you know, let 
me have a relationship with her.

3196
03:12:14,720 --> 03:12:17,360
I already know her. 
I knew her in the, you know, in 

3197
03:12:17,360 --> 03:12:20,760
the pre existence. 
Yeah. 

3198
03:12:21,640 --> 03:12:23,760
Yeah. 
Gerardo, you say you got to run,

3199
03:12:23,760 --> 03:12:25,520
so no worries. 
We really appreciate you 

3200
03:12:25,520 --> 03:12:27,560
spending 3 1/2 hours with us on 
a Sunday. 

3201
03:12:27,800 --> 03:12:29,000
Yeah. 
Thanks everybody. 

3202
03:12:29,400 --> 03:12:31,080
It was great. 
Yeah, thanks. 

3203
03:12:31,080 --> 03:12:34,280
Gerardo, Mark. 
Wants to be home but I promised 

3204
03:12:34,280 --> 03:12:36,280
our super chatters I would 
finish reading these so I'm 

3205
03:12:36,280 --> 03:12:37,960
going to read them all. 
Take care Gerardo, have a great 

3206
03:12:37,960 --> 03:12:38,960
day. 
You too. 

3207
03:12:39,080 --> 03:12:43,520
Bye bye. 
So Missy Ann says Colby said 

3208
03:12:43,520 --> 03:12:46,800
after his reaction that he 
thinks something is visiting her

3209
03:12:47,120 --> 03:12:49,920
but not Jesus. 
I believe you can invite 

3210
03:12:49,920 --> 03:12:52,600
possession by things Lori did, 
like castings. 

3211
03:12:53,120 --> 03:12:56,520
So that's Missy Ann and maybe 
Colby believing that she's 

3212
03:12:56,520 --> 03:13:02,000
getting deceptive demonic 
visitors that she believes are 

3213
03:13:02,000 --> 03:13:05,960
Jesus but really are satanic 
visitors. 

3214
03:13:06,160 --> 03:13:10,160
And and Joseph Smith's own 
revelations and Doctrine and 

3215
03:13:10,160 --> 03:13:17,680
covenants allow for deceptive 
spirits to visit you and even 

3216
03:13:17,680 --> 03:13:22,160
gives you like a handshake test 
where if you're being visited by

3217
03:13:22,160 --> 03:13:25,000
an angelic visitor, you should 
shake. 

3218
03:13:25,000 --> 03:13:29,000
This is literally in Mormon 
canonized scripture in 2025. 

3219
03:13:29,560 --> 03:13:32,000
Joseph Smith says you should 
extend your hand. 

3220
03:13:32,680 --> 03:13:36,560
If they shake your hand and you 
can feel a hand there, then 

3221
03:13:36,560 --> 03:13:41,120
they're a resurrected being. 
So they're a real positive, good

3222
03:13:41,320 --> 03:13:46,440
resurrected Angel. 
If you stick out your hand and 

3223
03:13:46,440 --> 03:13:50,600
they refuse to shake it, they're
a good Angel that hasn't been 

3224
03:13:50,600 --> 03:13:54,600
resurrected yet. 
So you should trust them because

3225
03:13:54,600 --> 03:13:58,080
they don't try and shake your 
hand, but they just haven't been

3226
03:13:58,080 --> 03:14:00,720
resurrected. 
If they go to shake your hand, 

3227
03:14:00,960 --> 03:14:04,760
but you can't feel a hand there,
then you know that they're a 

3228
03:14:04,760 --> 03:14:07,640
demon. 
And that's the test according to

3229
03:14:07,640 --> 03:14:09,360
Joseph Smith. 
And I don't, I don't mean to 

3230
03:14:09,360 --> 03:14:14,400
mock anyone's sacred religious 
beliefs, but like, that's Mormon

3231
03:14:14,400 --> 03:14:16,320
doctrine. 
Did you know that, Lauren? 

3232
03:14:16,320 --> 03:14:18,280
Did you know that was in the 
Doctrine and Covenants? 

3233
03:14:18,800 --> 03:14:20,320
I I have. 
I've heard that. 

3234
03:14:20,320 --> 03:14:22,760
I think I've learned that from 
you in Mormon stories. 

3235
03:14:22,760 --> 03:14:26,040
Yeah. 
Another maybe somewhere else. 

3236
03:14:26,040 --> 03:14:27,440
Yeah, I think I've heard it, 
yes. 

3237
03:14:27,680 --> 03:14:30,720
Any any thoughts? 
Do we think that Colby believes 

3238
03:14:30,720 --> 03:14:34,520
that his mom is being visited by
by demons? 

3239
03:14:34,520 --> 03:14:39,360
By deceptive spirits. 
No, I don't think he believes 

3240
03:14:39,360 --> 03:14:44,520
that he is he is Christian, but 
in recorded phone calls between 

3241
03:14:44,520 --> 03:14:47,280
Laurie and him that they've even
played in court. 

3242
03:14:47,400 --> 03:14:52,080
No, he, he, he rebukes her for, 
you know, even kind of 

3243
03:14:52,160 --> 03:14:55,000
suggesting that that she's 
getting visits from angels. 

3244
03:14:56,120 --> 03:15:01,480
OK, All right, Nikki Peaches 
writes. 

3245
03:15:01,480 --> 03:15:04,720
What do you all think of the use
of temple images during the 

3246
03:15:04,720 --> 03:15:07,480
episode? 
Do you think the Mormon church 

3247
03:15:07,960 --> 03:15:10,920
will put out a statement 
basically trying to distance 

3248
03:15:10,920 --> 03:15:14,120
itself? 
And thank you, Nikki Peaches for

3249
03:15:14,120 --> 03:15:18,280
the for the donation. 
No, I I think they've been 

3250
03:15:18,280 --> 03:15:20,600
silent on this case up to this 
point. 

3251
03:15:20,600 --> 03:15:23,800
I don't think they they probably
don't see any reason to jump in 

3252
03:15:23,800 --> 03:15:26,080
now and say anything at this 
point. 

3253
03:15:27,480 --> 03:15:31,560
Is it unfair, Lauren to as the 
resident Mormon and I say that 

3254
03:15:31,560 --> 03:15:34,440
just tongue in cheek. 
Is it is it fair that they 

3255
03:15:34,440 --> 03:15:38,520
temple images are included? 
Do you think that's smearing the

3256
03:15:38,520 --> 03:15:40,720
church? 
I mean, wasn't Laurie a temple 

3257
03:15:40,720 --> 03:15:43,760
worker up until the very end? 
Yeah, she was. 

3258
03:15:43,800 --> 03:15:45,680
I mean, no, I don't, I don't 
think it's bad. 

3259
03:15:45,680 --> 03:15:49,920
I mean, I have a lot of beliefs 
in what the church should do PR 

3260
03:15:49,920 --> 03:15:51,960
wise. 
And I'm I'm and I'm when I think

3261
03:15:51,960 --> 03:15:55,560
that I think of like what would 
help them and it's making the 

3262
03:15:55,560 --> 03:15:58,200
temple a lot more public and 
open. 

3263
03:15:58,200 --> 03:16:02,760
So I don't think that's AI, 
don't think it's smearing the 

3264
03:16:02,760 --> 03:16:08,200
church to have pictures of 
temples and inside the temple a 

3265
03:16:08,520 --> 03:16:10,360
lot was a lot was happening in 
the temple. 

3266
03:16:10,360 --> 03:16:12,880
So. 
Yeah, I went ahead and closed 

3267
03:16:12,880 --> 03:16:15,760
the poll, but 74% of our 
audience today has never been 

3268
03:16:15,760 --> 03:16:19,920
Mormon. 
Something like something like 

3269
03:16:21,800 --> 03:16:24,840
20% or former Mormon and 7% are 
active. 

3270
03:16:24,840 --> 03:16:29,120
LDSI love it. 
I love our active believing LDS 

3271
03:16:29,120 --> 03:16:31,040
listeners. 
I love your feedback. 

3272
03:16:31,200 --> 03:16:34,480
I love that you're listening. 
I hope you always feel respected

3273
03:16:34,760 --> 03:16:37,480
on Mormon Stories podcast. 
A Connors says. 

3274
03:16:37,480 --> 03:16:39,480
Excellent discussion. 
Thanks for the Super chat. 

3275
03:16:40,040 --> 03:16:47,120
A Connors Valahouk says you look
at how Charles Manson was able 

3276
03:16:47,120 --> 03:16:51,320
to brainwash his followers into 
killing innocent people and 

3277
03:16:51,320 --> 03:16:54,160
children without even being 
there themselves. 

3278
03:16:54,160 --> 03:16:58,320
So that's Vala just basically 
saying brainwashing is a thing 

3279
03:16:58,680 --> 03:17:02,400
and you don't need to be there 
to be able to influence people 

3280
03:17:02,400 --> 03:17:05,120
to murder. 
And I think that's objectively 

3281
03:17:05,120 --> 03:17:09,520
true. 
So that's just The Dark World 

3282
03:17:09,520 --> 03:17:12,360
that we live in. 
Jump in Megan or Lauren, if 

3283
03:17:12,360 --> 03:17:13,520
you've got anything to add 
there. 

3284
03:17:14,240 --> 03:17:18,520
Miss Mojo Rising says I would 
like to see all the cutting room

3285
03:17:18,520 --> 03:17:22,800
floor of the of the interview 
with Keith. 

3286
03:17:23,400 --> 03:17:26,160
Do you think it's just rambling,
Lauren and Megan, or do you 

3287
03:17:26,160 --> 03:17:29,400
think there's good stuff? 
I mean, obviously I want to see 

3288
03:17:29,400 --> 03:17:34,840
the full Lauren Matthias and 
Doctor John parts of the 

3289
03:17:34,840 --> 03:17:36,560
interview. 
That's the stuff that I'm most 

3290
03:17:36,560 --> 03:17:38,760
interested in because they're 
superstars. 

3291
03:17:39,240 --> 03:17:43,520
But do you think other than that
amazing portion, do you think 

3292
03:17:43,520 --> 03:17:46,120
the rest was rambling or? 
And they would have included all

3293
03:17:46,120 --> 03:17:50,800
of it if it was good. 
Or no, I, I think it's probably 

3294
03:17:50,840 --> 03:17:53,960
fascinating to many of us, but I
understand too. 

3295
03:17:53,960 --> 03:17:58,200
Like they Dateline is a 
storytelling platform. 

3296
03:17:58,200 --> 03:18:02,920
They have a story to tell. 
They can't just play 90 minutes 

3297
03:18:02,920 --> 03:18:08,640
of Lori Valo and you know, I, I 
or 90 minutes, I wish they 

3298
03:18:08,640 --> 03:18:11,360
could. 
It would be nice if they figured

3299
03:18:11,360 --> 03:18:16,600
out a way to put more of it on 
their website for us to all 

3300
03:18:16,640 --> 03:18:21,080
watch and learn from. 
But yeah. 

3301
03:18:21,320 --> 03:18:23,520
And when I say learn from, I 
don't mean we're going to learn 

3302
03:18:23,520 --> 03:18:28,040
life lessons from Lori. 
I mean, learn what in the world 

3303
03:18:29,560 --> 03:18:31,520
could possibly, you know, she 
was thinking. 

3304
03:18:32,400 --> 03:18:35,520
Yeah, I thought it was 
interesting when Keith pointed 

3305
03:18:35,520 --> 03:18:38,760
out that that she was giving 
parenting advice and she was 

3306
03:18:38,760 --> 03:18:40,720
talking about her parenting 
style. 

3307
03:18:41,480 --> 03:18:43,160
But I think Keith also 
mentioned. 

3308
03:18:43,440 --> 03:18:45,600
Using love and logic. 
Parenting logic. 

3309
03:18:46,160 --> 03:18:49,200
Like Margie read that book. 
I'm like, what are you trying to

3310
03:18:49,200 --> 03:18:51,920
be like the perfect Mormon mom 
role model here? 

3311
03:18:51,920 --> 03:18:53,400
Sorry, I didn't mean to 
interrupt Megan. 

3312
03:18:53,480 --> 03:18:55,600
No, that's OK. 
I think, I think she is, I think

3313
03:18:55,600 --> 03:18:58,800
she's trying to to still put out
that narrative that she's a 

3314
03:18:58,800 --> 03:19:01,960
great parent. 
But Keith did mention in one of 

3315
03:19:01,960 --> 03:19:06,840
the post interview interviews 
that he will be going on the 

3316
03:19:07,000 --> 03:19:12,360
Dateline podcast this Wednesday 
and he will talk more about some

3317
03:19:12,360 --> 03:19:15,800
of the other questions that he 
asked and and some of the other 

3318
03:19:15,800 --> 03:19:18,960
things that Lori said. 
So maybe we'll get some audio. 

3319
03:19:20,200 --> 03:19:26,360
OK, all right, I'll have to 
check that out, Dog Mom writes 

3320
03:19:26,360 --> 03:19:28,840
In my own personal opinion. 
I thought Lori sounded very much

3321
03:19:28,840 --> 03:19:33,960
so like a Scientologist, not so 
much LDS. 

3322
03:19:34,200 --> 03:19:38,320
Wow, that's a hot take, Dog Mom.
And I'm not going to say that's 

3323
03:19:38,320 --> 03:19:40,880
an invalid comment. 
Does that resonate with y'all 

3324
03:19:40,880 --> 03:19:43,760
that she sounds more 
Scientologist than Mormon? 

3325
03:19:45,880 --> 03:19:49,120
You know, I don't know enough 
about Scientology to know 

3326
03:19:49,120 --> 03:19:52,520
whether that's really accurate, 
other than the fact that, you 

3327
03:19:52,520 --> 03:19:56,760
know, Scientology teaches that 
we have some kind of alien being

3328
03:19:56,760 --> 03:19:58,760
inside of us that needs to be 
let out. 

3329
03:19:58,760 --> 03:20:04,960
I I don't know. 
I I see things I think that Lori

3330
03:20:04,960 --> 03:20:09,440
Vallow's extremism you want. 
My personal belief comes from 

3331
03:20:09,440 --> 03:20:13,720
multiple places, her Mormonism, 
but also some of her political 

3332
03:20:13,720 --> 03:20:19,640
beliefs and some other kind of 
really strong extreme beliefs. 

3333
03:20:19,640 --> 03:20:22,320
And I think that there's a 
little bit of a hybrid thing 

3334
03:20:22,320 --> 03:20:27,280
going on with Lori and Chad that
isn't addressed probably enough 

3335
03:20:27,280 --> 03:20:29,280
in my opinion. 
I think that Lisa Tilly does a 

3336
03:20:29,280 --> 03:20:32,680
good job of that in her book 
addressing it. 

3337
03:20:32,760 --> 03:20:36,680
But yeah, the I think there's 
certainly a lot more to this 

3338
03:20:36,680 --> 03:20:39,280
belief system. 
I'll just say then, LDS or 

3339
03:20:39,280 --> 03:20:48,800
Christian beliefs. 
All right, OK, let's see. 

3340
03:20:48,800 --> 03:20:52,280
The next comment is from Lisa. 
She was wearing the ring in 

3341
03:20:52,280 --> 03:20:54,560
jail. 
I think that's Lisa. 

3342
03:20:54,560 --> 03:20:58,520
Just either she noticed it or 
she's she's surprised about it. 

3343
03:21:00,120 --> 03:21:02,800
But I guess, I guess there's 
talking they're talking about 

3344
03:21:02,800 --> 03:21:06,200
the makeshift ring. 
Is that, is that what we're 

3345
03:21:06,200 --> 03:21:10,120
talking about there, Lauren? 
She's wearing a ponytail holder 

3346
03:21:10,120 --> 03:21:14,040
on her ring finger. 
And you know, they reminded us, 

3347
03:21:14,280 --> 03:21:17,480
Melanie Gibb reminded us in the 
interview, the Dateline 

3348
03:21:17,480 --> 03:21:20,280
interview, that there's no 
divorce for exalted beings. 

3349
03:21:20,280 --> 03:21:23,840
So she and Chad are going to be 
together for the next, you know 

3350
03:21:23,840 --> 03:21:29,880
how many forevers? 
That's that's fascinating. 

3351
03:21:30,960 --> 03:21:33,440
It's still hard to believe that 
she really believes that her and

3352
03:21:33,440 --> 03:21:37,320
Chad are going to be whisked 
away by Jesus before the death 

3353
03:21:37,320 --> 03:21:40,120
sentence. 
And I wonder if will will Chad 

3354
03:21:40,120 --> 03:21:42,080
will face the death penalty. 
Is that right? 

3355
03:21:42,840 --> 03:21:46,320
That's right. 
And if he does, I wonder if 

3356
03:21:46,320 --> 03:21:49,520
Keith will go back and interview
her at that point and see what 

3357
03:21:49,520 --> 03:21:51,720
she has to say. 
I hope not. 

3358
03:21:51,880 --> 03:21:53,840
Who cares what she has to say 
after that? 

3359
03:21:54,840 --> 03:21:59,000
Yeah, that's fair, Jane Francis 
says. 

3360
03:21:59,000 --> 03:22:02,960
The LDS Church is way past the 
time they should have condemned 

3361
03:22:02,960 --> 03:22:05,600
visions of glory. 
I think everybody on this panel 

3362
03:22:06,000 --> 03:22:10,920
would agree, correct? 
Yep, and they still can condemn 

3363
03:22:11,040 --> 03:22:13,960
visions of glory. 
It's never too late to condemn 

3364
03:22:13,960 --> 03:22:16,880
visions of glory. 
It's never too late to tell 

3365
03:22:17,160 --> 03:22:20,480
faithful, believing LDS members 
they should not be going to 

3366
03:22:20,480 --> 03:22:23,480
fringe conferences that are not 
supported by the official 

3367
03:22:23,480 --> 03:22:25,560
church. 
It's never too late for the 

3368
03:22:25,560 --> 03:22:29,480
church to come out and say these
people took our beliefs and 

3369
03:22:29,480 --> 03:22:32,280
twisted them and went too far. 
It's never too late for them to 

3370
03:22:32,280 --> 03:22:35,880
say anything that would prevent 
the harm of more people. 

3371
03:22:38,040 --> 03:22:38,880
Love it. 
Amen. 

3372
03:22:40,160 --> 03:22:43,840
Thanks to Lauren Sinkinen for 
her super chat. 

3373
03:22:44,440 --> 03:22:47,600
Jane Francis also writes Or 
possibly afraid of being 

3374
03:22:47,600 --> 03:22:51,280
declared dark themselves. 
And next on the murder list. 

3375
03:22:51,280 --> 03:22:52,960
I don't know what she's 
referring to there. 

3376
03:22:52,960 --> 03:22:56,400
Do y'all know? 
It was too long ago, sorry. 

3377
03:22:56,680 --> 03:22:58,720
OK, All right. 
Well, thanks Jane Francis for 

3378
03:22:58,720 --> 03:23:01,440
the support. 
I don't know this comment 

3379
03:23:01,440 --> 03:23:03,200
either. 
Artie Woodruff is saying dual 

3380
03:23:03,200 --> 03:23:08,400
poll on Alex Murphy's. 
Retweet. 

3381
03:23:08,720 --> 03:23:11,000
I don't know. 
Yeah, I don't know. 

3382
03:23:11,000 --> 03:23:13,440
OK, sorry. 
I don't know what that is. 

3383
03:23:14,200 --> 03:23:18,240
We have a vote from some nobody,
but the band name needs to be 

3384
03:23:18,240 --> 03:23:20,320
Visions of Glory. 
Is that too triggering y'all? 

3385
03:23:20,720 --> 03:23:25,120
Yeah, I'm no, no, thank you. 
I thought that was hilarious. 

3386
03:23:25,480 --> 03:23:27,160
It's funny. 
It's funny, but I don't think 

3387
03:23:27,160 --> 03:23:28,600
we're going to stick with that 
one. 

3388
03:23:29,120 --> 03:23:32,520
I think we should, maybe we 
should be, you know, based on 

3389
03:23:32,520 --> 03:23:34,480
the interview, on the Dateline 
interview. 

3390
03:23:34,480 --> 03:23:36,960
Maybe we should call ourselves 
Jesus's favorite. 

3391
03:23:37,800 --> 03:23:39,640
I don't know, I kind of like 
Visions of Glory because it 

3392
03:23:39,640 --> 03:23:45,560
gives some different SEO to, I 
mean, maybe helps it though. 

3393
03:23:45,600 --> 03:23:47,160
I don't know, like, you know, 
redirects people. 

3394
03:23:47,880 --> 03:23:50,840
Yeah, it redirects people. 
You know, like, wait a minute. 

3395
03:23:53,360 --> 03:23:54,600
I love it. 
I love it. 

3396
03:23:54,680 --> 03:24:00,000
OK, Lisa says total respect for 
Lauren's work and her candor, 

3397
03:24:00,800 --> 03:24:03,120
and I think that also goes for 
Doctor John. 

3398
03:24:03,120 --> 03:24:04,560
Lauren, y'all are doing great 
work. 

3399
03:24:04,560 --> 03:24:06,840
Thank you. 
Can I, I'm going to say 

3400
03:24:06,840 --> 03:24:10,200
something. 
I can tell a lot of people in 

3401
03:24:10,200 --> 03:24:12,400
chat. 
I mean, this is like same old, 

3402
03:24:12,400 --> 03:24:15,840
this is actually like for the 
past five years talking about 

3403
03:24:15,840 --> 03:24:18,960
what I believe or how they don't
think that they can believe what

3404
03:24:18,960 --> 03:24:23,880
I they can't believe what I 
believe or that I believe this 

3405
03:24:23,880 --> 03:24:26,680
or that I don't believe this. 
Reddit's got like whole threads 

3406
03:24:26,680 --> 03:24:28,880
on this. 
You're like an apologist that 

3407
03:24:28,880 --> 03:24:31,720
you're, you're here. 
To I can tell you guys this, 

3408
03:24:32,160 --> 03:24:34,880
nobody knows what I believe or. 
What? 

3409
03:24:37,160 --> 03:24:39,040
You don't believe, right? 
Nobody. 

3410
03:24:39,040 --> 03:24:40,800
Doesn't love it. 
Ron doesn't know. 

3411
03:24:40,800 --> 03:24:42,120
Megan doesn't. 
No, just kidding. 

3412
03:24:42,480 --> 03:24:45,440
Love it, Lauren. 
Yeah, but but go ahead, 

3413
03:24:45,440 --> 03:24:46,280
everyone. 
Yeah, keep. 

3414
03:24:47,080 --> 03:24:50,360
Speculating Lauren, you have 
such a good attitude about the 

3415
03:24:50,400 --> 03:24:53,560
the haters and the critics. 
You'd you're having fun with 

3416
03:24:53,560 --> 03:24:55,760
them. 
You're not getting offended or 

3417
03:24:55,760 --> 03:24:57,120
hurt. 
Is that just journalist thick 

3418
03:24:57,120 --> 03:24:59,400
skin or is that just your 
personality? 

3419
03:25:00,160 --> 03:25:01,760
Probably a mix of both. 
OK. 

3420
03:25:02,080 --> 03:25:05,000
Yeah, and everybody in the chat 
is saying now it was Visions of 

3421
03:25:05,000 --> 03:25:07,920
Gory was the band name vote, not
Visions of. 

3422
03:25:08,160 --> 03:25:09,560
Glory. 
Glory. 

3423
03:25:10,000 --> 03:25:11,640
I misread it. 
That's dark. 

3424
03:25:12,400 --> 03:25:15,000
We'll have to be like a Scream 
death metal band if we're going 

3425
03:25:15,000 --> 03:25:18,880
to call it Visions of Gory. 
Maybe we should call it 

3426
03:25:18,880 --> 03:25:24,840
Delusions of Glory. 
OK, all right, all right, Emily,

3427
03:25:24,840 --> 03:25:27,360
Christina says, I just want to 
point out that people with 

3428
03:25:27,360 --> 03:25:31,800
mental illness are much more 
likely to be victims of crime 

3429
03:25:32,200 --> 03:25:35,400
than perpetrators. 
Chad and Lori are narcissists 

3430
03:25:35,400 --> 03:25:38,080
and use religion to justify 
their actions. 

3431
03:25:38,440 --> 03:25:40,760
Emily, that's a great point. 
I think it's mathematically 

3432
03:25:40,760 --> 03:25:43,440
factual. 
So thanks for sharing that, 

3433
03:25:43,440 --> 03:25:46,840
Emily. 
Thank you to see Peace for the 

3434
03:25:46,840 --> 03:25:52,960
Super chat. 
Also, Raven Dahl writes just 

3435
03:25:52,960 --> 03:25:59,080
because she does not want court 
TV at her trial is not a, I'll 

3436
03:25:59,080 --> 03:26:02,640
say not a reason that judge 
should allow them to film the 

3437
03:26:02,640 --> 03:26:08,320
trial. 
So I think she's saying it's not

3438
03:26:08,320 --> 03:26:11,480
necessarily true that the judge 
should allow them to fill the 

3439
03:26:11,480 --> 03:26:14,720
trial just because she doesn't 
want it filmed. 

3440
03:26:15,320 --> 03:26:19,200
Megan, as someone close to this,
would you prefer it not be 

3441
03:26:19,200 --> 03:26:21,080
filmed or would you prefer it be
filmed? 

3442
03:26:22,000 --> 03:26:25,720
You know, I I fight with myself 
about it because I stand by my 

3443
03:26:25,720 --> 03:26:28,040
statement that I wish, you know,
there would be no more 

3444
03:26:28,040 --> 03:26:30,840
journalists and no more cameras 
in the courtroom because that's 

3445
03:26:30,840 --> 03:26:35,480
exactly what Lori wants, right? 
And, and I'm just going to point

3446
03:26:35,480 --> 03:26:40,080
out to Lori wants to be in 
control of the narrative more 

3447
03:26:40,080 --> 03:26:44,080
than anything else. 
And so she wants specifically 

3448
03:26:44,080 --> 03:26:47,200
for court TV, not to be the ones
to have cameras in the in the 

3449
03:26:47,200 --> 03:26:50,120
courtroom, but I guarantee you 
she wants cameras there. 

3450
03:26:50,120 --> 03:26:51,760
She wants, she loves the 
attention. 

3451
03:26:52,120 --> 03:26:54,760
She, she wants to be filmed and 
photographed. 

3452
03:26:56,080 --> 03:26:59,320
You know, I, it makes it easier 
for people like me who can't 

3453
03:26:59,320 --> 03:27:01,960
physically be there for the 
entire trial if there are 

3454
03:27:01,960 --> 03:27:04,040
cameras in the courtroom. 
So I'm for it. 

3455
03:27:04,040 --> 03:27:06,160
I think it's a matter of public 
interest. 

3456
03:27:06,520 --> 03:27:11,520
And I also think that it's, it's
important for as we're doing 

3457
03:27:11,520 --> 03:27:14,360
now, to speak up about Laurie 
and her beliefs so that more 

3458
03:27:14,360 --> 03:27:17,720
people are aware and don't get 
duped and manipulated. 

3459
03:27:18,400 --> 03:27:20,440
So that's that's just my 
personal take. 

3460
03:27:22,640 --> 03:27:25,800
Lauren, I know you've spoken to 
this a little bit already today.

3461
03:27:25,800 --> 03:27:29,000
Anything you want to add? 
Yeah, no, I, I hope that there 

3462
03:27:29,000 --> 03:27:31,520
are cameras in the courtroom. 
There were not cameras for her 

3463
03:27:31,520 --> 03:27:35,800
last trial. 
There was audio only in the fact

3464
03:27:35,800 --> 03:27:38,840
that Lori tries to say that 
doesn't happen, that doesn't 

3465
03:27:38,840 --> 03:27:42,600
happen, that didn't happen. 
I would love for people to see 

3466
03:27:42,600 --> 03:27:48,840
the evidence first hand and to 
know the truth of this. 

3467
03:27:50,600 --> 03:27:56,080
So, so I, I hope that there are 
cameras and that's why I think 

3468
03:27:56,080 --> 03:27:58,040
I'm going to attempt to go to 
this status hearing. 

3469
03:27:58,040 --> 03:27:59,720
Actually, there's been a lot 
going on in my life. 

3470
03:27:59,720 --> 03:28:02,400
So like I have a flight tomorrow
I am debating. 

3471
03:28:02,520 --> 03:28:06,560
So I am still trying to decide 
if I am going or not, but I 

3472
03:28:06,560 --> 03:28:09,240
might be there. 
And that's one reason I will be 

3473
03:28:09,240 --> 03:28:12,120
there if I go is I think, I 
think it's going to be really 

3474
03:28:12,120 --> 03:28:14,480
interesting to find out if they 
are going to have cameras in the

3475
03:28:14,480 --> 03:28:16,240
courtroom. 
And I absolutely hope they do 

3476
03:28:16,240 --> 03:28:19,480
all. 
Right. 

3477
03:28:20,400 --> 03:28:24,200
And for a writes, do you think 
the belief that Mormonism is the

3478
03:28:24,200 --> 03:28:28,040
one true church is dangerous? 
Other Christian religions are 

3479
03:28:28,040 --> 03:28:32,920
not so extreme and exclusionary.
Well, as the host of Mormon 

3480
03:28:32,920 --> 03:28:37,760
stories, I would say yes, it's 
dangerous, you know, but not 

3481
03:28:37,760 --> 03:28:39,280
just because it can lead to 
murder. 

3482
03:28:39,720 --> 03:28:43,760
Obviously most Mormons don't 
murder and most Mormons are on 

3483
03:28:43,760 --> 03:28:46,600
average really just nice, kind, 
smart, thoughtful people. 

3484
03:28:48,000 --> 03:28:50,960
But I think it leads to pride. 
I think it leads to judgment. 

3485
03:28:52,160 --> 03:28:57,480
I think it leads to hubris. 
And I think it, it deteriorates 

3486
03:28:57,480 --> 03:29:02,640
faith because if, if it's an all
or nothing, one exclusive true 

3487
03:29:02,640 --> 03:29:06,880
church or false, then when the 
church makes big errors like 

3488
03:29:06,880 --> 03:29:11,320
covering up pedophilia, covering
up sex abuse, cut, you know, 

3489
03:29:11,320 --> 03:29:14,840
covering up financial fraud, 
then the members are like, OK, 

3490
03:29:14,840 --> 03:29:17,480
it was all or nothing. 
God's church wouldn't work this 

3491
03:29:17,480 --> 03:29:18,800
way. 
So I quit. 

3492
03:29:19,120 --> 03:29:21,760
Whereas if it's just like, hey, 
we're all doing our best, we're 

3493
03:29:21,760 --> 03:29:25,840
going to make mistakes. 
I think allegiance to the church

3494
03:29:25,840 --> 03:29:29,880
can bend but not break. 
Whereas if it's so absolute, it 

3495
03:29:29,880 --> 03:29:34,360
it has a tendency to break and, 
and most, most ex Mormons end up

3496
03:29:34,360 --> 03:29:38,640
being atheists or agnostics and 
don't join any church. 

3497
03:29:39,120 --> 03:29:43,320
I think that these absolutist 
truth claims are fatal. 

3498
03:29:44,200 --> 03:29:47,000
The belief overall, which some 
might say is a good thing, 

3499
03:29:47,000 --> 03:29:49,840
others may not, but me, get me, 
get in Lauren. 

3500
03:29:49,840 --> 03:29:52,440
Anything you want to add about 
the one true Church claim? 

3501
03:29:52,720 --> 03:29:55,840
I I want to say if you think 
your church, whatever your 

3502
03:29:55,840 --> 03:29:57,400
church is, is the one true 
church. 

3503
03:29:57,800 --> 03:30:02,920
If you think your one belief is 
the only belief, political, 

3504
03:30:02,920 --> 03:30:06,040
religious. 
If you think your guy is the 

3505
03:30:06,040 --> 03:30:09,760
only true guy. 
If you think your person is 

3506
03:30:09,760 --> 03:30:11,640
literally, If you think. 
If you. 

3507
03:30:11,680 --> 03:30:16,880
If you believe the Bible is the 
only true book on this earth, I 

3508
03:30:16,880 --> 03:30:21,800
don't care whether it's 
Mormonism or Catholicism or your

3509
03:30:21,800 --> 03:30:24,640
political belief in a 
politician. 

3510
03:30:24,840 --> 03:30:29,000
If you think you know, to quote 
Christ, I am the way, the truth 

3511
03:30:29,000 --> 03:30:31,240
and the life, and no man cometh 
unto the Father of me. 

3512
03:30:31,480 --> 03:30:34,800
If you think your way is the 
only way, take a look at 

3513
03:30:34,800 --> 03:30:38,880
yourself. 
And I noticed in that comment 

3514
03:30:39,200 --> 03:30:41,240
that they said that like, do you
think it's problematic that 

3515
03:30:41,240 --> 03:30:45,240
Mormons do this because 
Christians, other Christians 

3516
03:30:45,240 --> 03:30:47,600
don't where you know, Christ 
said in the Bible, I'm the way, 

3517
03:30:47,600 --> 03:30:49,560
the truth and life. 
If you think Christian, if you 

3518
03:30:49,560 --> 03:30:53,320
think Christianity is the only 
way and that Christ is the only 

3519
03:30:53,320 --> 03:30:57,520
way that saves, that's a belief 
system of one truth. 

3520
03:30:59,360 --> 03:31:02,680
If if you can't broaden yourself
to think that maybe there's more

3521
03:31:02,680 --> 03:31:06,360
out there, I hope that you might
consider that. 

3522
03:31:09,200 --> 03:31:12,600
Amen. 
All right. 

3523
03:31:13,040 --> 03:31:16,520
I think Megan already addressed 
this. 

3524
03:31:16,520 --> 03:31:20,720
I think Keith also addressed it.
Cynthia asks any evidence that 

3525
03:31:20,720 --> 03:31:24,520
Lori is smart at all? 
I feel like she was elevated 

3526
03:31:24,840 --> 03:31:30,640
based on pretty privilege and 
manipulation learned by the LDS.

3527
03:31:31,520 --> 03:31:33,800
Megan, you would know best. 
Is Lori smart? 

3528
03:31:35,040 --> 03:31:39,040
I think, I think her level of 
intelligence has more with more 

3529
03:31:39,040 --> 03:31:42,760
to do with how she is able to 
get what she wants. 

3530
03:31:42,760 --> 03:31:48,320
So she's smart enough to, you 
know, thus far or at least prior

3531
03:31:48,320 --> 03:31:52,720
to her arrest to, to manipulate 
people to get what she wants. 

3532
03:31:52,720 --> 03:31:54,920
So that level of intelligence, 
yes. 

3533
03:31:57,640 --> 03:31:59,760
Anything you want to add? 
I mean, Keith. 

3534
03:31:59,840 --> 03:32:01,240
Keith thought she was 
intelligent. 

3535
03:32:03,520 --> 03:32:04,720
Anything else you want to add to
that, Lauren? 

3536
03:32:07,880 --> 03:32:13,080
No, I, I think, yeah. 
All right, Chantelle Buchlis 

3537
03:32:13,080 --> 03:32:15,600
says we the band, should 
interview Melanie and that we'll

3538
03:32:15,600 --> 03:32:18,040
get the truth. 
Is Melanie Gibb doing 

3539
03:32:18,040 --> 03:32:20,920
interviews? 
Well, she appeared on the 

3540
03:32:20,920 --> 03:32:23,600
Dateline interview, so yeah, she
was. 

3541
03:32:23,720 --> 03:32:25,640
Can we get her? 
That was that was an old 

3542
03:32:25,640 --> 03:32:27,000
interview. 
That was it. 

3543
03:32:27,360 --> 03:32:28,640
Yeah. 
That was an old interview she 

3544
03:32:28,640 --> 03:32:30,440
did for Dateline years and years
ago. 

3545
03:32:30,640 --> 03:32:32,000
You could, yeah. 
Yeah. 

3546
03:32:32,000 --> 03:32:35,160
Thank you for that. 
Yeah, same clothes, same set. 

3547
03:32:35,440 --> 03:32:38,440
Do you think she'd do it or is 
she just trying to disappear? 

3548
03:32:39,960 --> 03:32:42,200
I think she's certainly trying 
to lay low. 

3549
03:32:43,040 --> 03:32:45,600
OK. 
Yeah, she'll probably be called,

3550
03:32:45,600 --> 03:32:48,760
don't you think Lauren for to 
testify in this case. 

3551
03:32:49,600 --> 03:32:53,480
Yeah, I think a lot of these 
people can't speak either. 

3552
03:32:53,520 --> 03:32:57,920
And so she will most likely be a
witness once again in Charles in

3553
03:32:57,920 --> 03:32:59,560
in the murder trial for Charles 
Fallow. 

3554
03:33:00,080 --> 03:33:02,080
Yeah. 
All right, three more super 

3555
03:33:02,080 --> 03:33:09,320
chats unless more come in. 
So Saipuakivicalpias sounds 

3556
03:33:09,520 --> 03:33:13,280
sounds Greek. 
My ex also received revelation 

3557
03:33:13,280 --> 03:33:17,360
of my death. 
See, it's not just us and we 

3558
03:33:17,360 --> 03:33:21,360
planned accordingly. 
Funeral prep, bucket list trips,

3559
03:33:21,800 --> 03:33:24,160
upping life insurance, three 
times. 

3560
03:33:24,520 --> 03:33:26,320
Boob job. 
Why would you get a boob job if 

3561
03:33:26,320 --> 03:33:30,640
you know you're going to die 
coercive repenting to prepare me

3562
03:33:30,640 --> 03:33:37,000
to meet my maker that I mean we 
there's you could look at that 

3563
03:33:37,000 --> 03:33:41,320
as being funny, but also you 
could also look at that as being

3564
03:33:41,320 --> 03:33:44,760
sad and tragic. 
Regardless, I'm really grateful 

3565
03:33:45,280 --> 03:33:48,840
for that share and for the Super
chat Y'all. 

3566
03:33:48,840 --> 03:33:51,720
Why? 
Why would boob boob job come 

3567
03:33:51,720 --> 03:33:55,680
into hearing that you're going 
to die soon? 

3568
03:33:56,360 --> 03:33:59,120
Making the most out of life 
means different things to 

3569
03:33:59,120 --> 03:34:00,600
different people. 
OK, OK. 

3570
03:34:00,800 --> 03:34:02,520
All right. 
No shade. 

3571
03:34:02,520 --> 03:34:05,680
No shade. 
Any reactions to that? 

3572
03:34:06,280 --> 03:34:11,400
It's just OK, I'll keep going. 
Sylvia Kranz says never MO here.

3573
03:34:11,400 --> 03:34:13,400
Thank you for your work. 
Love all your channels. 

3574
03:34:14,040 --> 03:34:16,960
And then finally, this may be 
the last super chat for the day.

3575
03:34:16,960 --> 03:34:20,560
Lauren Peterson says you can't 
be assigned a lawyer if you've 

3576
03:34:20,560 --> 03:34:22,240
already waived your right to 
counsel. 

3577
03:34:23,000 --> 03:34:27,760
Pro bono trials are called slow 
guilty pleas for a reason. 

3578
03:34:27,760 --> 03:34:29,000
I don't even know what Lauren's 
saying. 

3579
03:34:29,000 --> 03:34:33,920
There I agree, but well, so, so 
we were talking about I, I made 

3580
03:34:33,920 --> 03:34:38,000
the comment that if Laurie went 
too far off base that the judge 

3581
03:34:38,000 --> 03:34:41,480
could remove her, her right to 
represent herself. 

3582
03:34:41,480 --> 03:34:45,040
And that is actually true in the
state of Arizona because I 

3583
03:34:45,040 --> 03:34:49,040
researched it. 
If Lori goes too far outside the

3584
03:34:49,040 --> 03:34:52,720
scope or if she starts 
pontificating or testifying or 

3585
03:34:52,720 --> 03:34:56,280
she's not following the court's 
rules, the judge has the right 

3586
03:34:56,280 --> 03:35:00,120
to revoke her right to to 
represent herself. 

3587
03:35:00,520 --> 03:35:03,080
And she absolutely will be 
resigned. 

3588
03:35:03,080 --> 03:35:07,080
Rias she has right now, she has 
advisory counsel to attorneys 

3589
03:35:07,080 --> 03:35:09,640
that are helping her prepare her
pleas and motions. 

3590
03:35:10,520 --> 03:35:14,800
And so those attorneys could be 
assigned to her or reassigned to

3591
03:35:14,800 --> 03:35:18,040
her as as representing her if 
she goes too far off the deep 

3592
03:35:18,040 --> 03:35:21,760
end. 
All right. 

3593
03:35:24,120 --> 03:35:27,160
Oh, here we go. 
Look, look, John looks like 

3594
03:35:27,160 --> 03:35:29,080
garbage compared to just six 
years ago. 

3595
03:35:29,080 --> 03:35:30,720
Thank you, Huggy Bear. 
I appreciate. 

3596
03:35:30,720 --> 03:35:34,120
That let's see a picture of you 
Huggy Bear you now and you six 

3597
03:35:34,120 --> 03:35:36,960
years ago, hey. 
Lauren and Megan, you're you're 

3598
03:35:36,960 --> 03:35:39,400
not the only ones that get 
comments about your appearance 

3599
03:35:39,400 --> 03:35:40,120
sometimes. 
Right. 

3600
03:35:40,160 --> 03:35:42,640
I know that I'm actually over 
here laughing because I'm like, 

3601
03:35:42,640 --> 03:35:44,440
that's like, really refreshing. 
I'm like, yeah. 

3602
03:35:44,480 --> 03:35:45,720
For you that. 
Was funny. 

3603
03:35:45,760 --> 03:35:47,600
Someone's not looking at our 
looks. 

3604
03:35:48,200 --> 03:35:50,960
I'm still picking on our looks. 
You look like crap. 

3605
03:35:53,280 --> 03:35:57,600
I think you look great, John. 
Thank you. 

3606
03:36:00,000 --> 03:36:03,560
I just had to share that. 
All right, well, they didn't 

3607
03:36:03,560 --> 03:36:08,880
even do a super chat. 
OK, so thank you again. 

3608
03:36:09,240 --> 03:36:13,680
Megan, your channel is Midlife 
Revolution or Third verse or 

3609
03:36:13,680 --> 03:36:17,040
even Megan Connor. 
You can find that on YouTube. 

3610
03:36:17,040 --> 03:36:19,480
Please subscribe and like her 
channel. 

3611
03:36:20,360 --> 03:36:22,560
Megan, anything you want to say 
before we wrap up? 

3612
03:36:23,080 --> 03:36:29,040
You know, you asked a while back
if there is anything that any 

3613
03:36:29,040 --> 03:36:32,120
one of us would ask Lori if we 
had the opportunity to interview

3614
03:36:32,120 --> 03:36:36,920
her. 
And I think I, you know, I used 

3615
03:36:36,920 --> 03:36:39,800
to want to interview her because
I wanted to kind of know what 

3616
03:36:39,800 --> 03:36:42,680
was going on in her brain. 
And, and now that we've have 

3617
03:36:42,680 --> 03:36:47,200
this interview, I don't need to,
because I, I do see what she, 

3618
03:36:47,200 --> 03:36:49,920
you know, where her head is at. 
But I think if I had the 

3619
03:36:49,920 --> 03:36:53,320
opportunity to ask her even one 
question, I think what I would 

3620
03:36:53,320 --> 03:37:01,480
ask her is when are the times in
your life that you feel 

3621
03:37:01,480 --> 03:37:06,280
genuinely guilty about something
that you did that was wrong? 

3622
03:37:07,640 --> 03:37:12,800
And I would love to hear her 
answer on that because I think 

3623
03:37:12,800 --> 03:37:16,240
people who have narcissistic 
tendencies, people who have a 

3624
03:37:16,240 --> 03:37:20,360
lack of empathy and an inability
to take responsibility for their

3625
03:37:20,360 --> 03:37:22,960
own actions, that's a really 
tough question for them to 

3626
03:37:22,960 --> 03:37:27,800
answer because it forces them to
remove their mask, at least for 

3627
03:37:27,800 --> 03:37:32,400
themselves, and be introspective
and examine their own behavior 

3628
03:37:32,400 --> 03:37:36,280
and say, when is the time that I
really felt guilty about 

3629
03:37:36,280 --> 03:37:38,440
something that I did? 
When did I do something wrong? 

3630
03:37:38,440 --> 03:37:42,560
When did I do something that 
really harmed another person? 

3631
03:37:43,920 --> 03:37:46,400
You know, they really don't have
the ability to do that. 

3632
03:37:46,400 --> 03:37:49,280
And, and so I think that that 
would at least be telling from 

3633
03:37:49,280 --> 03:37:53,480
the standpoint of, you know, she
would have to be introspective. 

3634
03:37:53,520 --> 03:37:57,600
All of that being said, I have 
no wish to talk to Lori at all. 

3635
03:37:58,360 --> 03:38:03,600
I think that the real Lori was 
gone a long time ago. 

3636
03:38:04,440 --> 03:38:07,400
I think that she is buried under
her delusion. 

3637
03:38:07,400 --> 03:38:09,120
And I don't think she'll ever 
come out again. 

3638
03:38:09,120 --> 03:38:12,040
So I don't really have a desire 
to engage with her in any way. 

3639
03:38:14,360 --> 03:38:18,200
Sharita Hall is saying don't, 
Megan, she will hurt you if she 

3640
03:38:18,200 --> 03:38:20,560
can. 
She can't hurt me. 

3641
03:38:20,640 --> 03:38:25,240
I'm bully proof. 
That's good, Heather, Ruth says.

3642
03:38:25,240 --> 03:38:28,280
How dare John look different six
years later like the rest of us?

3643
03:38:28,280 --> 03:38:32,040
Thanks, Heather. 
I'm not offended at all, by the 

3644
03:38:32,040 --> 03:38:34,200
way. 
I'm really not. 

3645
03:38:34,840 --> 03:38:36,120
You look great, John. 
I know. 

3646
03:38:36,120 --> 03:38:38,760
I hope you I, I want to say I 
was, I was teasing you, but you 

3647
03:38:38,760 --> 03:38:40,200
look great. 
And then people are like calling

3648
03:38:40,200 --> 03:38:41,680
me out. 
They're like Lauren has a filter

3649
03:38:41,680 --> 03:38:45,600
and I'm like, yeah, I do. 
I have a skin filter on and I 

3650
03:38:45,600 --> 03:38:49,440
have Botox and I need the gun 
and aging is beautiful. 

3651
03:38:49,440 --> 03:38:50,960
All the above. 
But you look great, John. 

3652
03:38:51,400 --> 03:38:54,200
I love it that we're owning and 
just having fun. 

3653
03:38:54,200 --> 03:38:55,840
And Kelly J says I love you 
guys. 

3654
03:38:55,840 --> 03:38:58,760
Laugh at trolls instead of 
getting mad. 

3655
03:38:58,760 --> 03:38:59,720
Yeah. 
Thank you. 

3656
03:39:00,760 --> 03:39:05,920
OK, so Megan, you're amazing. 
You're you're, I'm so proud to 

3657
03:39:05,920 --> 03:39:08,960
have you as part of the band. 
I'm so honored to call you as a 

3658
03:39:08,960 --> 03:39:11,200
friend. 
Thank you so much for joining us

3659
03:39:11,200 --> 03:39:12,720
today. 
We love you. 

3660
03:39:13,400 --> 03:39:15,160
Thank you so much. 
I'm happy to be here. 

3661
03:39:15,160 --> 03:39:20,280
I I'm so grateful to have this 
wonderful band to unpack all of 

3662
03:39:20,280 --> 03:39:22,200
this with. 
It really does help me heal. 

3663
03:39:22,200 --> 03:39:26,160
It helps me process. 
And I'm grateful for your 

3664
03:39:26,160 --> 03:39:29,680
supportive viewers and, and 
Lauren, your hidden gems are 

3665
03:39:29,680 --> 03:39:33,360
wonderful and have been so 
supportive of me and my channel.

3666
03:39:33,360 --> 03:39:37,120
And John, you've been a 
wonderful friend and mentor And 

3667
03:39:37,200 --> 03:39:40,320
I, I owe a lot of my channel 
success to both of the two of 

3668
03:39:40,320 --> 03:39:42,120
you. 
So I'm, I'm always grateful to 

3669
03:39:42,120 --> 03:39:46,120
have conversations with you. 
Hey, Congrats on the 10,000 

3670
03:39:46,120 --> 03:39:47,440
number. 
Thank you. 

3671
03:39:47,440 --> 03:39:48,920
It's almost up to 11 now. 
It's. 

3672
03:39:49,320 --> 03:39:50,280
Amazing. 
Yeah. 

3673
03:39:50,840 --> 03:39:53,200
Lauren, what are your final 
comments or words? 

3674
03:39:53,200 --> 03:39:55,480
We're so happy you were able to 
join us today. 

3675
03:39:55,480 --> 03:39:58,920
And also Doctor John's always 
welcome as a as a member of the 

3676
03:39:58,920 --> 03:40:00,760
band. 
He could be our Yoko Ono. 

3677
03:40:01,040 --> 03:40:03,360
Tell Doctor John he could be our
Yoko Ono. 

3678
03:40:04,240 --> 03:40:10,520
No, then he'll take Lauren away.
John says hello. 

3679
03:40:10,520 --> 03:40:12,400
You know, we always have a hard 
time jumping on these things 

3680
03:40:12,400 --> 03:40:17,360
together because, you know, the 
idea is great to have, you know,

3681
03:40:17,360 --> 03:40:20,000
Co hosts his spouses. 
You know, you do it with Margie.

3682
03:40:20,440 --> 03:40:24,160
But we do have a young child and
you know, he's been out there 

3683
03:40:24,160 --> 03:40:26,200
all day, you know, taking, you 
know, parenting. 

3684
03:40:26,200 --> 03:40:29,440
So we're always having to, you 
know, do a switch. 

3685
03:40:29,440 --> 03:40:32,720
But I think we're actually just,
you know, going to we're going 

3686
03:40:32,720 --> 03:40:38,080
to go on Patreon to talk about 
this, our thoughts. 

3687
03:40:38,120 --> 03:40:42,640
I'm going to dig into the 
psychology of Lori later with my

3688
03:40:42,640 --> 03:40:46,160
husband John because he's a 
criminal psychologist for those 

3689
03:40:46,160 --> 03:40:50,920
that know or don't know, and he 
has some thoughts about this 

3690
03:40:50,920 --> 03:40:53,600
Dateline episode. 
We haven't gone public on our 

3691
03:40:53,600 --> 03:40:57,480
channel this week, but we'll be 
doing a Patreon episode of 

3692
03:40:57,480 --> 03:40:59,880
patreon.com/and Do Crime if you 
guys want to check that out. 

3693
03:40:59,880 --> 03:41:01,080
We're going to record later 
today. 

3694
03:41:02,360 --> 03:41:05,320
Oh cool, so you'll release it 
around when approximately? 

3695
03:41:05,320 --> 03:41:06,520
I think we're going to release 
it tonight. 

3696
03:41:06,520 --> 03:41:10,480
So our Patreon episodes, we do 
audio only and we just, it's 

3697
03:41:10,480 --> 03:41:12,360
like behind the scenes, non 
edited. 

3698
03:41:12,360 --> 03:41:14,040
We just like turn our phone 
recorder on. 

3699
03:41:14,040 --> 03:41:15,800
So we're like sitting at the 
table talking. 

3700
03:41:16,200 --> 03:41:20,280
It just that feels easier that I
have some personal stuff going 

3701
03:41:20,280 --> 03:41:22,840
on in my life. 
And so a lot of people have been

3702
03:41:22,840 --> 03:41:26,600
asking us my thoughts. 
We were going to go live last 

3703
03:41:26,600 --> 03:41:28,320
night. 
I, I opted not to. 

3704
03:41:28,600 --> 03:41:31,880
So what we're going to do is 
just do a very kind of simple 

3705
03:41:32,160 --> 03:41:36,120
behind the scenes episode where 
I ask John all my questions and 

3706
03:41:36,120 --> 03:41:39,480
to see what he thinks from a 
criminal psychologist point of 

3707
03:41:39,480 --> 03:41:43,440
view, what he thinks about 
Lori's thoughts. 

3708
03:41:43,440 --> 03:41:46,320
So that's, we're going to do it.
We'll do something later on 

3709
03:41:46,320 --> 03:41:47,840
YouTube. 
But you know, we're taking a 

3710
03:41:47,840 --> 03:41:51,160
break right now. 
But I'm glad I could come on 

3711
03:41:51,160 --> 03:41:52,560
here. 
This was this was great. 

3712
03:41:52,560 --> 03:41:56,120
This was needed. 
And you know, just so you know, 

3713
03:41:56,120 --> 03:41:58,880
John, I've been thinking about 
like what question I would ask 

3714
03:41:58,880 --> 03:42:02,480
Lori Valo this entire episode 
since you you pitched that 

3715
03:42:02,480 --> 03:42:05,480
question to me. 
I'm trying to like think of 

3716
03:42:05,480 --> 03:42:09,760
something super profound. 
And, you know, honestly, you got

3717
03:42:09,760 --> 03:42:11,480
me. 
Like, I think I would probably 

3718
03:42:11,480 --> 03:42:15,240
just like shoot the breeze with 
her and talk about makeup and 

3719
03:42:15,240 --> 03:42:18,840
chapstick in her life and you 
know, what she thinks about 

3720
03:42:18,840 --> 03:42:21,160
politics and the way of the 
world. 

3721
03:42:21,160 --> 03:42:23,000
I mean, I don't know. 
I mean, I guess politics is 

3722
03:42:23,000 --> 03:42:27,120
pretty heavy, but I think what 
I'm just most interested in. 

3723
03:42:27,120 --> 03:42:28,720
I don't want to hear what she 
has to say. 

3724
03:42:28,720 --> 03:42:30,680
I guess I don't want any more of
her excuses. 

3725
03:42:30,680 --> 03:42:33,160
I've heard them all. 
Like it's exhausting. 

3726
03:42:33,480 --> 03:42:39,680
I think I remain intrigued by 
her with just how she is as a 

3727
03:42:39,680 --> 03:42:43,600
person, like, you know, and, and
maybe little slips or maybe 

3728
03:42:43,600 --> 03:42:46,800
tells, you know, slips of the 
mask or little tells that I 

3729
03:42:46,800 --> 03:42:49,920
might get from just shooting the
breeze with her and and being 

3730
03:42:49,920 --> 03:42:51,640
her friend, which sounds 
appalling and kind of 

3731
03:42:51,640 --> 03:42:55,400
contradictory since I said I am 
so mad that Keith said that he 

3732
03:42:55,400 --> 03:42:57,200
was her friend. 
And I'm like sitting here saying

3733
03:42:57,200 --> 03:42:59,040
like, I'd like to know what that
would be like. 

3734
03:42:59,160 --> 03:43:02,320
I get it. 
I get it hypocritical, but I I 

3735
03:43:02,320 --> 03:43:05,920
think that's, you know, that's 
probably what I would want to 

3736
03:43:05,920 --> 03:43:10,320
ask her. 
And honestly, and hopefully, you

3737
03:43:10,320 --> 03:43:13,160
know, Shane Bishop, the producer
from Dateline is listening or 

3738
03:43:13,160 --> 03:43:15,360
Keith Morrison, but I've always 
been more interested in what 

3739
03:43:15,800 --> 03:43:19,640
Chad Dabel has to say. 
So, you know, I don't know how 

3740
03:43:19,640 --> 03:43:23,720
easy it is to get to death row, 
but I I am waiting and I hope 

3741
03:43:23,720 --> 03:43:28,560
someone snags that interview. 
I love it. 

3742
03:43:28,920 --> 03:43:32,160
All right, well, Lauren, again, 
just like with Megan, we're just

3743
03:43:32,160 --> 03:43:34,400
so thrilled to have you as a 
part of our channel. 

3744
03:43:34,400 --> 03:43:36,160
We wish. 
And your channel, you're about 

3745
03:43:36,160 --> 03:43:39,720
to pass Mormon Stories in 
subscribers, which, by the way, 

3746
03:43:39,720 --> 03:43:41,280
I'm thrilled about. 
So y'all are I'm. 

3747
03:43:41,480 --> 03:43:43,200
Not. 
Y'all are kicking butt. 

3748
03:43:43,200 --> 03:43:45,840
Y'all are totally kicking booty 
and we're not. 

3749
03:43:45,920 --> 03:43:48,880
That's true. 
That's when I do surpass you in 

3750
03:43:48,880 --> 03:43:50,480
subscribers, I will let you 
know. 

3751
03:43:50,480 --> 03:43:53,160
I promise I'll be like John 
Boom. 

3752
03:43:53,680 --> 03:43:57,040
But that's not happening anytime
soon, so it's not. 

3753
03:43:58,400 --> 03:43:59,960
True. 
Oh, well, in my mind it's true. 

3754
03:43:59,960 --> 03:44:04,440
How's that? 
Really quickly? 

3755
03:44:04,440 --> 03:44:08,200
Thanks to Sherry Williams for 
last minute couple super chats 

3756
03:44:08,200 --> 03:44:11,240
and then Maria writes. 
Can you repeat the other 

3757
03:44:11,240 --> 03:44:14,880
channels please? 
Yes, hidden true crime on 

3758
03:44:14,880 --> 03:44:17,240
YouTube and there's also a 
podcast called hidden true 

3759
03:44:17,240 --> 03:44:19,480
crime. 
That's Lauren and doctor John. 

3760
03:44:20,080 --> 03:44:25,240
And then Megan's is has three 
names, either Megan Connor or 

3761
03:44:25,280 --> 03:44:29,240
third verse or midlife 
Revolution, revolution, right? 

3762
03:44:29,240 --> 03:44:31,040
Did I get all that right? 
Yep, you did. 

3763
03:44:31,040 --> 03:44:33,240
I'm I'm shocked that you 
remember them all. 

3764
03:44:33,240 --> 03:44:36,480
It's it's kind of crazy. 
All right, well y'all are the 

3765
03:44:36,480 --> 03:44:37,840
best. 
Thanks to all our viewers and 

3766
03:44:37,840 --> 03:44:40,960
listeners. 
Thanks to Maven and Julia that 

3767
03:44:40,960 --> 03:44:44,160
were able to jump on last minute
on a Sunday. 

3768
03:44:44,720 --> 03:44:47,680
Maven for moderating, Julia for 
doing time codes and show notes 

3769
03:44:47,680 --> 03:44:49,480
and shorts. 
Thanks to Gerardo. 

3770
03:44:49,480 --> 03:44:52,600
Again thanks to Brooklyn that 
does our editing and some of our

3771
03:44:52,600 --> 03:44:54,280
post production along with 
Julia. 

3772
03:44:54,840 --> 03:44:59,960
Thanks to Margie and our 
respective partners for letting 

3773
03:44:59,960 --> 03:45:01,320
us. 
I don't know if if everyone 

3774
03:45:01,320 --> 03:45:04,240
wants their partners to be 
named, but for letting us come 

3775
03:45:04,240 --> 03:45:08,080
in on a Sunday. 
Thanks all our donors. 

3776
03:45:08,360 --> 03:45:10,400
Mormon stories that make all 
this possible. 

3777
03:45:10,400 --> 03:45:13,040
We couldn't do this without our 
monthly donors. 

3778
03:45:13,520 --> 03:45:17,000
We we do pay Megan and Lauren 
and Mindy and Gerardo for 

3779
03:45:17,000 --> 03:45:19,440
appearing and it's the Super 
chats. 

3780
03:45:19,440 --> 03:45:23,120
But mostly it's just the monthly
donations, Mormon Stories of the

3781
03:45:23,120 --> 03:45:25,280
Oba Stories Foundation that 
makes all this possible. 

3782
03:45:25,600 --> 03:45:28,680
So thanks to all the donors. 
If you want to become a, if you 

3783
03:45:28,680 --> 03:45:32,080
want to support this content, we
lose donors every month. 

3784
03:45:32,440 --> 03:45:35,000
We can't do without our donors. 
So if you want to see this 

3785
03:45:35,000 --> 03:45:39,600
content continue, we need people
to step up, replace the people 

3786
03:45:39,600 --> 03:45:43,360
who cancel and back out and 
become monthly donors. 

3787
03:45:44,040 --> 03:45:46,360
Just go to mormonstories.org, 
click on the donate button, 

3788
03:45:46,360 --> 03:45:48,800
become a monthly donor. 
And that's how you keep this 

3789
03:45:48,800 --> 03:45:52,160
content going. 
You can also help us by liking 

3790
03:45:52,160 --> 03:45:56,560
this episode right now by 
subscribing to this channel, 

3791
03:45:56,560 --> 03:45:59,440
Mormon Stories podcast, and our 
respective channels by 

3792
03:45:59,440 --> 03:46:04,000
commenting and by sharing. 
That's all super helpful as 

3793
03:46:04,000 --> 03:46:05,720
well. 
Thanks again to all our 

3794
03:46:05,720 --> 03:46:07,440
commenters. 
We really appreciate it. 

3795
03:46:07,840 --> 03:46:09,640
Be good to each other, be kind 
to each other. 

3796
03:46:10,040 --> 03:46:12,400
And we'll see you all again soon
on another episode of Mormon 

3797
03:46:12,400 --> 03:46:15,520
Stories Podcast. 
Hidden True Crime and Midlife 

3798
03:46:15,520 --> 03:46:17,400
Revolution. 
Take care, everybody. 

3799
03:46:18,120 --> 03:46:18,680
Thanks everyone.