1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,120 And then a few years later, I went to Ronnie Scott's and I saw 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:08,280 Nina Simone perform live. And that was just the most 3 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:12,040 extraordinary experience because she looked straight at me. 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,360 And when I asked for a request, I asked her to sing Sugar in my 5 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:16,760 bowl. And she looked straight at me 6 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,040 and pointed at me. And she said Sugar in my bowl 7 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:32,080 I'll be doing later. Hello and welcome to Tracks of 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:34,520 Our Queers. Each episode I chat to a 9 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,160 fascinating LGBTQ person about the music that has soundtracked 10 00:00:38,160 --> 00:00:41,400 their life. I first came across Jackie K's 11 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,840 work a few years ago with her novel Trumpet, the fictional 12 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,200 story of a mixed race trumpet player who happens to be a trans 13 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,960 man. A book both rooted in the past 14 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,080 as its semi Based on the true story of Billy Tipton and you 15 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,200 should definitely give him a Google and deeply prescient of 16 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,760 how trans people would be treated and outed in the years 17 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,280 to come. As the subject of said book 18 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,480 would suggest, Jackie is an enormous music fan. 19 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,960 After smashing her Desert Island Discs episode, which I 20 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:13,080 definitely recommend as further listening to this one, I moved 21 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,560 on to the audio book of her memoir, Red Dust Rd, which is a 22 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:18,760 journey through her many parts and sights. 23 00:01:18,960 --> 00:01:22,800 As a lesbian of Scottish and Nigerian descent, a daughter and 24 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:27,360 a mother, and even a national poet of Scotland, Jackie's love 25 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,840 for music across a multitude of genres is a line connecting all 26 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:32,560 of these parts as you're about to hear. 27 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,760 Finally, we recorded this chat on the day of an eclipse here 28 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,120 during a sweltering British summer. 29 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:41,800 And this is the fact that Jackie wished me to show in this intro. 30 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,920 So there you go, Tracks of our Queers is totally independent 31 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,120 and proudly so. But if you enjoy what you listen 32 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,760 and you can spare me a coffee, there is a link in the episode 33 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:52,160 show notes allowing you to do so. 34 00:01:52,160 --> 00:02:05,640 Much appreciated in advance. Over to Jackie Jackie K Welcome 35 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:07,880 to Tracks of Our Queers. Oh, hello. 36 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,320 Nice to be here. Very nice to be here, Andy. 37 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,480 Now, I disclaim that I'm going to ask you many questions that I 38 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,080 already know the answer to because I've heard your words 39 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,080 speak them many times, but my listeners may not have. 40 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,440 So we'll start with going right back to the beginning. 41 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,280 What is your earliest musical memory? 42 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,160 Please describe what was playing at home when you were growing 43 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,080 up. Well, my, my family was, I was, 44 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,760 I was adopted in Brighton and white Scottish people that were 45 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:39,680 both really into a wide range of music, from folk music to jazz 46 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,680 music to funny songs to all to comic songs. 47 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,280 So I was really, really lucky. I listened to a lot of jazz and 48 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,920 Blues growing up. Bessie Smith was my first ever 49 00:02:48,920 --> 00:02:51,120 Double Black album my dad bought me as a gift. 50 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:56,000 And the earliest memory of of songs was was a song called 51 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:00,680 Julie Peace Song and it was Adam McNaughton and it's a song about 52 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:05,200 poverty in in Glasgow. And in the idea, Julie means jam 53 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,280 and the idea is that you can't throw a jam sandwich out of a 54 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:13,720 2424 stone flat. 700 hungry rains don't testify to that, 55 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,560 whether it's butter deeter Jelly, whether they beep beep 56 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:21,200 plainer pan, the odds against it reaching earth in 1991. 57 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,160 So you get this amazing image, which is the kid really struck 58 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,600 me or somebody throwing a jam sandwich out of a higher eyes 59 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,680 flat and all the wee hands reaching out to try and grab it 60 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,840 before it ever reaches them. So so it was kind of visual come 61 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,200 here, full of character, but also has a really serious 62 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,000 intent. One of my earliest that's one of 63 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,080 my earliest memories is healing. That song just used to we all 64 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,000 used to roar with laughter. And another one, the The Red 65 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:51,840 Yoyo by Matt McGinn. Did you find the red yo-yo yo-yo 66 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,640 yo-yo? Did you find the red yo-yo 67 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,560 yellow string? And it's have you seen my red 68 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,320 yoyo, red yoyo, red yoyo? Have you seen my red yoyo, 69 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:06,760 yellow string? It's this big, big, long cosmic 70 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:11,160 existential for, for for you, which involves all of these 71 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,840 countries and all of these, all of these different characters. 72 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,079 It's kind of really brilliant, Brilliant song. 73 00:04:17,079 --> 00:04:20,200 And he was a great songwriter. So yeah, these are two of the 74 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:21,200 two. Only ones. 75 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:22,640 Scottish. Scottish socks. 76 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,400 And these are on records that your dad or your mum are 77 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,280 actually playing. They had, I mean, they had a 78 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:31,520 huge selection of classical, you know, they like Sostakovich, but 79 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,280 I'd like telling you a story of a friend of his who'd once been 80 00:04:34,280 --> 00:04:39,680 in the hospital bed right next to Shostakovich, you know, in 81 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:44,040 Russia and how bizarre it was to end up in a hospital bed next to 82 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:45,880 Shostakovich. That was one of his favourite 83 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,440 stories. Your parents would often have a 84 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,320 lot of people visit right from the work they did and their 85 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,000 political activism. Your house would be filled with 86 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,680 people from all over the world, I imagine. 87 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,160 Were any of these people bringing different musical 88 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,720 influences? Yeah, I grew up in A and like 89 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,640 you say, a very, very busy asshole because they have these 90 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,200 party socials and that the party socials, everybody would sing a 91 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,880 song and all these different comrades had different songs 92 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:13,960 that they sang all these songs. We're not, we're not political 93 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,160 songs at all. And they're also high school 94 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,200 songs and grew up around them too. 95 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,320 But there would just be a whole mixture, you know, a lot of 96 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,360 mixture. Songs from from America, jazz 97 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,920 songs, jazz standards really put your sweet lips a little closer 98 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:37,000 to the put. Your sweet lips And I used to 99 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,200 think it said floor. In fact, they wrote a poem about 100 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,360 an act called Watching People Sing, just because I used to be 101 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,600 fascinated by all the different ways that people could own a 102 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,840 song and sing it, that people could kind of dramatically kind 103 00:05:48,840 --> 00:05:50,720 of judder their chin as they were singing. 104 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,680 Or sometimes people would cry as they sang, and other times 105 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,120 people would dance and struck about the living room floor. 106 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,760 So I loved the kind of the energy and the character. 107 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,120 Sometimes quite shy people would suddenly come to line with their 108 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:03,840 with their own little party piece. 109 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:08,760 And so so I loved I left that that yeah, we'd quite a few 110 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,400 South African black S Africans come and stay. 111 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:15,040 I'd learn I'd learn South African freedom songs. 112 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,320 I'd learn American freedom songs and then Chilean song Vince 113 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:23,840 Alaimos, Vince alaimos Milka dandas Kiram pair finds Alaimos 114 00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:26,480 fence and Amos and learn all these like go to these. 115 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,320 I go to these big events like a quick life shipbuilding rallies 116 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,920 or Chile solidarity socials where you would be singing 117 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,040 alongside Chilean comrades and learn these songs. 118 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,480 And I used to get a real shiver and down my back at the idea 119 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:47,760 that a song could unite people could bring them together, could 120 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,960 make them feel as solid as solidarity and could make them 121 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,640 feel like they somehow belonged. So I still do get a kind of a 122 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,200 real shiver at certain certain songs, you know, even songs like 123 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:03,120 Down by the Riverside or If I Had a Hammer, a Hammer in the 124 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:08,120 Morning if. I had a hammer, had a hammer in 125 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:19,760 the This line Your parents are both your birth parents and your 126 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,040 adopted parents. All of these people are so 127 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,400 familiar and real to me because I have heard you talk about them 128 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:30,240 at at length in your beautiful memoir, Red Dust Rd, very 129 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,240 recently. But just hearing you describe 130 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,400 that particular scene of these people in your house and these 131 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,880 people that your parents had invited in and the different 132 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:42,040 music that was playing, when did you have any idea that the 133 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,600 childhood you had lived was perhaps a little bit more 134 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,520 extraordinary than most kids? I think I've I think I've 135 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,200 probably thought that from as early as I could think 136 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:55,400 articulated not because my my friends always reacted to coming 137 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,080 round to my house like it was the most exciting place. 138 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,480 OK, you were that house. Yeah, I was that highest and 139 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,360 because I grew to, I lived in quite a suburban part of Glasgow 140 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,360 and Bishop Briggs, you know where the houses were, Lawrence 141 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,320 houses, which are a bit like with the houses and they and it 142 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:13,880 was kind of lower middle class I guess. 143 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,040 But my parents were very working class, but they lived in a lower 144 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,200 middle class area. My father turning up in our 145 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,840 street with his green Mars minor with votes, John Key and 146 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,920 communist posters attached to this ban was really shocking for 147 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,240 Bishop Ricks. The other point that popped into 148 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,120 my head when you were talking about the role of those specific 149 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:38,679 songs for you is your poem. A life in protest documents this 150 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,799 very clearly. But there's the through line of 151 00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:44,680 your life, this kind of political activism, which was a 152 00:08:44,680 --> 00:08:46,800 gift that your parents gave to you when you were very young, 153 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,640 accompanying them on protests against things like the Polaris 154 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,680 missiles in Scotland. But right through to modern day 155 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,880 your life and the different causes that you've been an 156 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,920 activist for, there's this song that you call out in these 157 00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:03,680 different chapters in this poem like Glad to Be Gay by Tom 158 00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:13,840 Robinson. I'm every woman. 159 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:35,480 Chaka Khan, And actually a song from an 160 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,280 album that we'll be discussing shortly, Balm in Gilead by Nina 161 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,440 Simone. Your love for music is evident 162 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,520 in all of your work. But when you think about some of 163 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,920 those songs, in particular those songs that soundtrack protests, 164 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,960 what what does that evoke for you now when you look back at 165 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,400 some of the music that has soundtracked those protests? 166 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:54,800 Yeah, it's lovely. You should say that. 167 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,480 And thanks for noticing all different songs in that way for 168 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,080 me. And songs tell the time. 169 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,040 So songs are another way of yeah, exactly another way of 170 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:08,280 telling the time. And songs tell the story of our 171 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,040 lives, and they're another kind of autobiography. 172 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,840 And songs actually tell the story of our loves. 173 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,080 And there are another way of telling about our broken hearts. 174 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,480 So the songs are just right there in our kind of deep and 175 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,440 they make us up. And without the songs that we've 176 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,880 listened to and the music that we've loved, we would be quite 177 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:30,920 different people. It's the same with that film 178 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:32,640 about books. You know, without the books that 179 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:34,680 we've read and loved, we would be different people. 180 00:10:34,680 --> 00:10:36,800 We are kind of cultural repositories. 181 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,440 And if we're open to, open to the way in which music can 182 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:47,480 accompany us, comfort us, rouse us, anger us, inform us, then 183 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,920 we're we're open to we've got a tiny little magic key that opens 184 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:54,240 up everything. And all of those traits of music 185 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,560 are universal to the human condition. 186 00:10:56,560 --> 00:10:59,320 Anyone can really tap into those experiences. 187 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:03,080 But at the crux of this podcast is what I believe to be the 188 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,160 particularly special relationship that queer people 189 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:09,160 have with music. So I'm curious, Jackie, I'd love 190 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:12,240 to know. Do you remember the first song 191 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:16,120 or album that perhaps made you feel seen or understood as a 192 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,840 queer person? I think it was, I think that it 193 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:23,640 was more that I actually put on two different songs, feelings I 194 00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:28,800 had for for for other girls. So, you know, if I was in love 195 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,000 at sixteen with a with a girl around the corner from me. 196 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,040 What was that? Song She I I sing that Billy 197 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:36,960 washing song Love really hurts without you. 198 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,600 And I feel. And I feel very thrown up 199 00:11:48,680 --> 00:11:52,000 because I had this song that I could I could sing that that I 200 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,200 associated with with her with Debbie. 201 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,360 And that was that was, you know, kind of lovely. 202 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:03,120 And I'm at school and and this cat class class bully. 203 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:08,200 And this is in the art class and I'm Kevin, Miss Miss Jackie's a 204 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:12,000 lazy and the and the art teacher turns to me. 205 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,400 And she said much to my huge surprise, the art teacher turned 206 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,480 to me and she said, well, I knew Jacqueline, add you a lesbian. 207 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:23,080 And I was really shocked. And I said, oh, I don't know. 208 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,600 I really don't know. And it was like it kind of 209 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,280 stunned the whole class into silence because if I said yes, I 210 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,160 didn't actually know if I was or not at that. 211 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,760 If I said yes, it would probably kind of like really shaking them 212 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,000 by surprisingly, if I said no and care would have just kept on 213 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,360 going. I, I, but I have been bold 214 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:46,200 enough to walk through, walk through Bishopbriggs cross hand 215 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:50,920 in hand, which is probably where these rumours came from because 216 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,000 it was quite an interesting early, early thing at 16. 217 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,360 Then I remember the same around the same age. 218 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:02,320 I I heard the song the first time ever I saw your face. 219 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:20,280 The Face, you know, that was a 220 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,280 couple of a couple of years later when I fell in love with 221 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:27,160 another girl called Sylvia Ricky in London and she was about my 222 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:31,080 colour of skin, 1/2 Nigerian and she was a very, extremely 223 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:36,080 beautiful woman. She introduced me to that song 224 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,640 Reverse to Flex, the first time ever I saw your face at her at 225 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,000 her funeral a few years later. Jackie, I've got AI had a few 226 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,480 more questions for you before we get into your selections, but I 227 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,960 think we should just dive in because I'm really keen to carry 228 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:50,640 on talking about this very special song. 229 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,440 So this The first time I ever saw your face is the track that 230 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:54,920 you picked for your selections today. 231 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,680 And I was familiar somewhat with the history of it and that it 232 00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:02,480 was written for by Ewan McCall, but I was much more familiar 233 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:06,080 with the version by Roberta Flack, which is very well known. 234 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,680 I'd love to hear, beyond what you just mentioned about the the 235 00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:12,760 young woman who introduced you to the song, why you actually 236 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,720 picked it to discuss today. I've picked it because I think 237 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:20,120 it's a beautiful song. I think that the story behind it 238 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,600 really captivates me too. I love that and the fact that 239 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,280 three singers that I really adore sing it completely sing 240 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,840 the exact same song very differently. 241 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:34,000 Roberta Black sings it and she draws it out and sings it in a 242 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:38,440 soul ballad way, and Peggy Segre sings it and she sings it as a 243 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:39,640 as a folk song. The 1st. 244 00:14:40,840 --> 00:15:01,240 Time Eyes and each it changes its, IT 245 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,760 changes its templates, its dimensions that you change in 246 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,000 thinking about when you when you listen to it, depending on the 247 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,040 way that it's sung of the idea that you know, you and Nicole 248 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,920 wrote the song for Peggy Seeger. She was in the name she'd left 249 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:20,440 being with him and she needed to have at an event. 250 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,120 She was very night. And this is like 1957. 251 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,320 And so he made the song up on the phone call to her. 252 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,840 It took him 7 minutes to make that song up and he sang it to 253 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:34,240 her down the phone. And that same night, she sang 254 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:36,240 the song at the event that she needed to soar. 255 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,640 So that's kind of brilliant to me, that a song that's lasted 256 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,200 all this time, had all these different lines and all these 257 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,600 different people recording. It was initially made-up in a 7 258 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,440 minute phone call. It's kind of lovely. 259 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:49,600 I love that. And then he sang it. 260 00:15:51,200 --> 00:16:09,640 And the first time ever About her. 261 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,480 But but when he sang it to her, she wasn't feeling that way 262 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:15,840 about him in the same way as he was feeling about her. 263 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,920 There was a love song that was written for her but that she 264 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:21,640 didn't. She didn't really think about 265 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,680 him when she was singing it. And now she sings on as she's 266 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,720 recorded it recently. She she's 1991, but she recorded 267 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,400 it again aged 87. So not that not that long ago 268 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,920 you can hear her. She had her most recent album 269 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,240 actually released at the age of 91, which was shortlisted for 270 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,280 Folk Album of the Year award. And she's a kind of 271 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,800 extraordinary person. The first time 272 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,000 But but it's really strange that she when she sings a song now 273 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,800 she's singing it to her love of her life, one of her lifelong 274 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,040 loves, which is a woman called Irene. 275 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,440 And she's been with Irene for for 30 odd years. 276 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,040 And so her life kind of split in half for first half of my life 277 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,880 married to Ewan McCall and the second-half being with Irene. 278 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,520 And now when she sings a song, the first time ever I saw your 279 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,000 face, she's actually thinking of Irene. 280 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:25,280 So it's kind of it's, it's changed, it's shifted sounds, 281 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,480 it's moved from continent to country, it's moved to gender as 282 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,440 it's moved to me. That's, that's what I love about 283 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,520 music. It's fluid, it's deeply 284 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:37,600 resonant, and it means different things that. 285 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:42,240 Story just gives me shivers when you first sent the note through 286 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,240 and I was doing my research and then I listened to an episode of 287 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,120 one of my favourite podcasts. It's ABBC podcast called Soul 288 00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:51,080 Music. It's like a cousin to Desert 289 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,560 Island Discs where they do a deep dive into different tracks 290 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,600 and there's an episode just for the first time I ever saw your 291 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,280 face actually, Peggy talks at length towards the end about 292 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,640 what you just described and the idea that, you know, whatever 293 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:09,120 love you and Nicole and Peggy had for each other was very 294 00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:11,200 real, but it was a different type of love. 295 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:16,120 And hearing Peggy described that she could understand the love 296 00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:19,520 that Ewan had for her when she sang it for Irene. 297 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,880 It's just electrifying. And especially to hear a woman 298 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:29,200 of an advanced age talk with that transparency and awareness. 299 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,440 Yeah, and she's so candid. She's always so truthful and so 300 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:34,520 no answers. You should have her on your 301 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:36,120 pods. Oh my gosh, That would be 302 00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:38,040 remarkable. I'd absolutely love that. 303 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:39,880 Yeah. Because I think she'd just be a 304 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,520 great person. And also, she's 91, so you know 305 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:57,480 you should get cracking. Would you mind, Jackie? 306 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,000 Would you mind just reading a little bit of an excerpt from 307 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,240 your poem? Or indeed, as much as you want 308 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,800 your tribute to Peggy Seeger. Sure she might. 309 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,480 Seems it seems fitting, isn't it, Andy? 310 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,160 Last night I dreamt of Peggy Seeger. 311 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,760 She was singing a peace song to my mum, even though she knew 312 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,640 that my mum had gone. As if she believed the dead 313 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,600 still believe in peace after they've gone. 314 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,520 She was singing to the stars and the trees, singing to the very 315 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,920 air we breathe. She was singing to the Robins, 316 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,360 blackbirds, bees, to the grassies in the summer breeze. 317 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,520 Singing to the Hope, we could all be agreed like all the peace 318 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:44,400 songs that have gone before, and this old world would put an end 319 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,800 to war. Last night I jumped to Peggy 320 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:51,360 Seeger. That was very special. 321 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,240 Before we move on, I do just want to give a quick shout out, 322 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,200 of course, to the version which many people would probably be 323 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,680 familiar with, which is the Roberta Flack cover. 324 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,480 And I believe, is it true that Ewan and Peggy were not very 325 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,160 impressed initially by that, but then Peggy came to love it, I 326 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:08,680 think eventually. Is that true? 327 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,160 Do you know? Yeah, I think I think it really 328 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:15,280 took them by surprise for a for a start, because although 329 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,520 reverse ordered it at three years before it became the 330 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,520 sensational song, which it was in 1972 and a Grammy winner and 331 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,640 and and was a worldwide sensational hit. 332 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,440 It would have been a real surprise to to Peggy and you and 333 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,680 that this wee song of theirs, which had been within a a small 334 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,400 family of folk when I had to be this, this, this, this huge 335 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,120 international song and and you and didn't like it at all. 336 00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:41,080 He never liked it. And I think Peggy's grown to 337 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,640 like it now, but I think the way that Roberta Flack elongates 338 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,400 those vowels, the way that she hangs on to those notes, 339 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,520 I kind of almost silences are built into the song. 340 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:11,960 I think they're genius. And I think it's just an 341 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:13,560 absolutely brilliant interpretation. 342 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,880 Choose, you know, if you, if you put me up again against a wall 343 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,440 with a gun to my head, not that I'm suggesting you too peaceful, 344 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,280 but you didn't. And you asked me to choose 345 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,320 between Roberta's version, Nina Simone's version, or Peggy's 346 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,480 version. I would find it really hard and 347 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,320 on different days to pick different ones. 348 00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:33,360 The good news is, I'm not going to ask you to choose. 349 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,840 Thank God. But the good thing is, Roberta 350 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:40,520 Flex's version is so mournful, and it's even more poignant now 351 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,840 that she's died, you know, because now we're thinking about 352 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,960 the first time we saw her face. And so the song's changed again, 353 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,760 and we're thinking about Roberta's face and, and Peggy, 354 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,120 you know, I'll be thinking about her face when she's no longer 355 00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:55,280 here. Speaking of songs that have that 356 00:21:55,280 --> 00:22:00,000 particularly melancholic quality that so many of us love, I would 357 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,480 like to mention that actually from 2016 to 2021, you were the 358 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,920 third Scots maca. Is that do I pronounce that 359 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,320 correctly Maca? Maca maca maca maca maca. 360 00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:14,440 Maca maca, you were the third. Not maca, maca, not R Don't 361 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:15,920 emphasise it. Are just maca. 362 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:20,040 Are you good dying maca? Yeah, maca, maca like laca. 363 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,400 That's it. Macro, which is the national 364 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,840 poet of Scotland. But what's remarkable to me 365 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,080 apart from that extraordinary position is the years that you 366 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,680 held that role in, of course, like the early months of the 367 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,160 pandemic. And I just had a question for 368 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:38,560 you on did you feel an added sense of responsibility at that 369 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,800 time to serve as like a source of comfort for the country going 370 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:44,480 through such a period of uncertainty? 371 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,120 Yeah, I really did. I've got a very strong sense 372 00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:50,360 during those COVID years, I heard that the Macca's, you 373 00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:54,960 know, it was only a position and I, I, I knew that COVID might 374 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,480 last at least a couple of years. I didn't want to just be 375 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,440 inactive, inactive for two years. 376 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,160 At the event that I lost two years of my Macca doc to COVID, 377 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,600 I did this I created this programme called Macca to Macca, 378 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,920 which was music and poetry. And there was 18 of them and 379 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:15,440 they went out every week on the Thursday for 18 weeks and they 380 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,400 gathered a huge audience. You know, 30,000 people watching 381 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,840 Annie Lennox came on the the last one special guest and had 382 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,840 all these different people think the Sedro was on was on one do 383 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,840 it also so different really extraordinary people and 384 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:35,480 extraordinary poets on on 2. And I like the mix of poetry and 385 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:36,840 music. And then the other thing I did 386 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,680 was write me Sunday poems. I did once. 387 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,720 A week I. Remember for 21, 21 Sundays and 388 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,800 they were pressure a new poem every single every single week. 389 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,320 Some weeks I cheated and had to use a poem that was already 390 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,000 written, but most of the time I think for 17 of the 20 I wrote a 391 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,920 brand new poem fresh out of the oven. 392 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,680 Yeah, that's where I heard your poem that you wrote for your 393 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:03,520 friend Julia Darling, which I know definitely touched a nerve 394 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,880 with those who heard it at that time in COVID and I think has 395 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,240 gone on to be a very special poem for people, particularly 396 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,600 around remembrance services and funerals. 397 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,680 And that's an incredible impact and legacy to have on people. 398 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:16,680 Well. Thank you. 399 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,120 You know your stuffs, you know your stuffs. 400 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,720 Yeah, right. We better get into your next 401 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,680 selection, which is the album. Do you mind sharing the album 402 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,840 that you picked and why? Yes, absolutely. 403 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:36,080 Well this is a tough choice but I picked Nina SIM Mullins 404 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,800 Baltimore as my all time favourite album. 405 00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:54,760 The reason that I picked that Baltimore, which actually wasn't 406 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,560 her favourite album and part of her life, she didn't, she didn't 407 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,720 like it. But you know, Tolstoy didn't 408 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:06,080 like Anna Karenina either. And an artist, artists or 409 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,720 writers or musicians are never necessarily the best judge of 410 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,880 their own material. So I've picked that to the one 411 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,480 side. The reason that I I love it is 412 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,400 because it's got on display everything that I love about 413 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,920 Nina Simone. It's got her lyricism, it's got 414 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,920 her beautiful piano playing. It's got her kind of jivey, 415 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,120 jivey grooviness. It's got her bluesiness, it's 416 00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:31,840 got her energetic sadness, fury. It's got her anger. 417 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:36,240 It's got her love of telling a story and it's got her 418 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,560 characters and it's got her genius of to me, the whole album 419 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,920 captures her genius and it captures how brilliantly she can 420 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,920 do a cover. So Baltimore itself around the 421 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:59,880 Newman song. Her version, like we are talking 422 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:03,800 about versions earlier, but her version of Baltimore is my all 423 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,720 time favourite version of it just because of what she gets 424 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,760 into it. And because when you listen to 425 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,280 it you can be tricked into thinking it's going to be a 426 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,680 happy song. And then when you listen to the 427 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,600 words underneath it, you realise that it's a song about poverty. 428 00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:20,920 So bit nights, the GDP song I was talking about, I quite, I 429 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:25,640 really like things where very serious things come in a come 430 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,920 under a different guise. And so you're constantly having 431 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,480 to ask your question. It's a bit like, you know, as 432 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:36,640 gay people, we often wore masks or we're often secret or we 433 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,760 often had to hide or pretend to be somebody else. 434 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,960 I'm always drawn as a writer to the idea of doppelgangers and 435 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,720 other selves. And, and I think that Nina 436 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:51,520 Simone in Baltimore gives us multiple selves. 437 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:56,240 Particularly the song Baltimore. Yes, this strong social message 438 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,360 cloaked in I actually, I do get sadness from the song, but in 439 00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:03,320 kind of like a sexy way. I write down like sexy and sad 440 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,280 for Baltimore. But then you get hit with this 441 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,280 very strong social message and there's like a Hall and Oates 442 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:24,640 cover in there too, Rich girl. Tell me about like how you came 443 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,480 across this album and. I love her. 444 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,760 At the time, Sylvia brought to me to Sterling, so I was still a 445 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:35,760 student at Sterling University. I'd have been 1818 or 19, and 446 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,280 she brought me this album. It would have been 19791980. 447 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,840 And she bought me, actually, she bought me Sugar in my Bowl Elbow 448 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,400 and she bought me Baltimore. And I hadn't heard of Nina 449 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,960 Simone and I was absolutely electrified over and over and 450 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,720 over and over again in 14 Abercrombie plates where I had a 451 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,000 room. Sophie I had met in at this 452 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,280 conference called OWAD Organisation of Women of African 453 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,400 and Asian Descent, and it was the first conference where I met 454 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,840 lots of other black people and had other black friends because 455 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,480 I grew up in an all white part of Glasgow and didn't really see 456 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,120 many black people at all unless they happened to come to our 457 00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:16,400 house for a party social. So. 458 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,000 So when I went to London for a big conference, which was in 459 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,760 1980, I was kind of just completely blown away. 460 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,160 And then we formed this breakaway group, the BLG, the 461 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,360 black lesbian group and and the black and I before that, I 462 00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:33,200 thought I might be the only black lesbian in the world 463 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,080 because I never met any. And and then suddenly there was 464 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,200 fifty of us in this BLG, which often confused with the BFG big 465 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:46,400 friendly lesbian. But it was it was really, it was 466 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,520 really fantastic. And so Sylvia I met around that 467 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,560 time, the same time that I met Ollie Vex and GAIL and Lillian 468 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,040 and Joanne. A lot of the people that are in 469 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,920 that poem of mine in their life and process, that poem's really 470 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,880 a kind of a litany of their names because it's a kind of 471 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,320 literally for survival for me, meeting those friends and that 472 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,600 particular time and meeting all these other lesbians, it was 473 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,000 just like mind blowingly exciting. 474 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,360 So I associate Baltimore with all of that, with that period in 475 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,320 my life of suddenly having that kinship, friendship with all 476 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,400 these different, different women and suddenly realising that, 477 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,160 hey, you know, you're not the only one. 478 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,160 And the incredible role that music plays in that, like the 479 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,360 fact that it was a this album was physically a gift for you is 480 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,880 this gift from a lover. But that through your life, the 481 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,240 decades since now, when you listen to that album, it's like 482 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,360 tapping into that incredible excitement of meeting people 483 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,280 like you and finding your tribe and kinship. 484 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,400 And then a few years later, I went to Ronnie Scott's and I saw 485 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:52,560 Nina Simone perform live. And that was just the most 486 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,280 extraordinary experience because she looked straight at me. 487 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,640 And when I asked for a request, I asked her to sing Sugar in my 488 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,040 bowl. And she looked straight at me 489 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,320 and pointed at me. And she said Sugar in my bowl. 490 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,200 I'll be doing later. I want. 491 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:16,480 A little sugar in my bowl. Oh, that was just like wildly, 492 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,520 wildly shiver, shiver, excitement. 493 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,880 And then years after that, just a couple of years ago, my son 494 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,080 had written to Ronnie Scott's to find out because he knew that 495 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,720 I'd been to see her in 1983. So he asked which photographers 496 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,800 had been in Ronnie Scott's in 1983 taking pictures of Nina 497 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,760 Simone. And they put him in touch with 498 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,000 three and he, so he wrote to all three of them and asked them if 499 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,720 they could show him the pictures that they'd taken. 500 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,960 And then he picked the one that he thought was most like. 501 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,640 I described how she linked and he had to blown up for me. 502 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,280 Oh, and framed. But I've got it up the stairs. 503 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:51,240 I should bring it down to sewing. 504 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,920 But it was just the most thoughtful present ever and it 505 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,320 made me burst into tears. And they'd also written, he'd 506 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,000 written it in his own very beautiful handwriting. 507 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:03,920 He'd written in his own handwriting what this 508 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,280 photographer had said she remembered about seeing Nina 509 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,520 Simone. And it was that that then 510 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,400 allowed me to write my poem about Nina Simone because just 511 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,960 seeing her in that photograph took me straight back to Ronnie 512 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,000 Scott's in 1983. So that's what I mean about 513 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,000 songs and music having different episodes and different ways of 514 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,080 triggering a memory and, and opening up a memory and giving, 515 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,200 using yourself back, your 23 year old self. 516 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,680 Suddenly my son giving me this photograph of Nina Simone for 517 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,640 Christmas a couple of years ago gave me back my 23 year old self 518 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,400 before he was even born. So yeah, time music. 519 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,280 Amazing. Amazing you these stories are 520 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,240 just incredible. I I it was funny that you picked 521 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,720 up on Nina not enjoying this album, particularly herself, 522 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,840 because that was really coming through in the research and it 523 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,160 was making me crack up actually, because some of the songs on 524 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,400 there have a bit of like a a reggae tilt to them, which from 525 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,920 my ears was like, wow, this doesn't sound like Nina Simone. 526 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:05,160 And I love I'm totally with you that artists are not always the 527 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,760 best judge of their own work. And I love how something an 528 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,280 artist doesn't like can still really resonate so much with the 529 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,280 people who are consuming it. It's just one of those weird 530 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:27,440 mysteries of life. Yeah. 531 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,520 And also think if you'd asked Nina someone, she's a very 532 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,320 changeable character. If you'd asked her that question 533 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,440 on a different day, she's given you a very different answer. 534 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,680 And so I'd also take some of the things that she'd said with a 535 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,880 pinch of salt because she and, you know, I think geniuses do 536 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,920 change a lot. You know, wait, you have to, you 537 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,800 have to allow in the room to be mutable and flexible. 538 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,360 One of my friends had Nina Simone around your house for 539 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,840 Christmas one year. And and she said it was a bit of 540 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,000 an eye because I was really jealous. 541 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,240 She said it was a complete nightmare because she was kind 542 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,320 of off her face and she was very changeable. 543 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,640 So you'd wake up in the morning, you should be fighting friendly, 544 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,680 but by mid afternoon she was really troubled and difficult. 545 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,880 And then by the evening she'd be all anxious. 546 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,160 And and so the whole Christmas was a complete, you know, it 547 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,560 went through all these moods along with Nina's moods. 548 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,560 And I could imagine that that kind of also what I was trying 549 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,200 to catch and my poem and, you know, the many moods of Nina 550 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:32,040 Simone that and they're also, she had mental health problems 551 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,080 and she, she wasn't properly, she didn't get the right help 552 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,280 and racism hurt her. And she'd been through. 553 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,840 And I think she, I think, I think Nina Simone was a lesbian. 554 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,960 I don't think she had the right relationships. 555 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,960 I think, you know, she she loved Anne Lorraine Hansbury. 556 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,840 Like she was even in love with doing Handsbury a business. 557 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,480 And she died, you know, really, really young after she'd 558 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,920 written, yeah, after she'd written The Reason of the Sun. 559 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,440 And Nina Simone wrote the song to be young, gifted and black. 560 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,440 Tell our young woman for Noreen Hansbury and then that song 561 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,360 itself became another anthem to every young gifted black person 562 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,960 that's that is ignored or not properly appreciated. 563 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,679 It became a song of it's time, just like Mississippi Goddamn 564 00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:26,560 became the protest song of it's time. 565 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,400 Nina Simone sat down and wrote Mississippi Goddamn in about 566 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,320 half an hour or something really, really quick. 567 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,719 Sometimes songs are powered by the wind and the range that's in 568 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,719 here. Final selection which is your 569 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:42,400 artist and any good Jackie K fan would know who you're about to 570 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,320 discuss. But for those who don't know 571 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,639 your connection to this artist, why have you chosen them to 572 00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:50,000 discuss today? Well, I've chosen Bessie Smith. 573 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,280 Whitney shears my life, love. She was a complex figure, 574 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,240 really. Very, very famous in the 1920s, 575 00:34:57,240 --> 00:34:59,360 in fact, the richest black woman in America. 576 00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:02,080 She had relationships with men and women. 577 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,680 She dressed up in suits, male suits, for some of her 578 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,160 performances. For others. 579 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,520 She wore feathers and blooms. She was an alcoholic. 580 00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:13,080 She was aggressive and violent herself. 581 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,600 She was also the victim of quite a lot of male violence. 582 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:21,680 She was an adoptive mother. She adopted the son Jack G She 583 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,880 her. Her songs were sassy, oignant, 584 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:30,560 told extraordinary stories, and her life followed the arc of her 585 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,640 most famous song, Nobody Knows You When You're Dying The Night. 586 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:48,760 Nobody Because my life went from very poor as a nine year old 587 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,360 girl, she's she signed on street corners for for a nickel and a 588 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:57,080 dime to very rich in the 90s, twenties when she was, you know, 589 00:35:57,240 --> 00:36:00,280 kind of also part of the kind of Harlem Renaissance over the 590 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,000 hanging of all sorts of different people in in Harlem at 591 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,160 the time. Artos and other singers and 592 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:10,080 other poets. Langston Mears She was just an 593 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,400 extraordinary person. She was very working class, so 594 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,120 she didn't like middle class black people. 595 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,280 She didn't like those hoity toity middle class blacks of the 596 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,600 Harlem Renaissance. So I really identified with her 597 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,160 in so many ways and I was bought a book about her when I was 14. 598 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,040 And in this book, it told of her having sex with women on a 599 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,240 pillowman. I didn't really know what a 600 00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:33,480 Pullman was. I later found out it was an 601 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,440 actual train. But I thought of it as a kind of 602 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,840 waggon. I imagined it in my 14 year old 603 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,440 head as this waggon and shared me. 604 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,760 And it should be going along with this waggon, having all 605 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,960 this sex with these women. That was a puffy, right? 606 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,320 So I just, I just, I just, I liked her complexity. 607 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,720 I love the way that she sang, like to do with entendres, you 608 00:36:57,720 --> 00:36:59,160 know? One of my favourite songs is 609 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,400 Kitchen Man. While 610 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,280 Because it took me years before at 12 years old. 611 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,640 I love that song. I just imagine a chef kind of 612 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,280 figure of bringing her all these nice things to eat and the 613 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,560 double entendres, the double entendres and Jerry rolls passed 614 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,760 me by my innocent little head and then come back to it. 615 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,160 When I did know what what all these double entendres meant, I 616 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:38,280 found them really sassy. I like the Ma Rainey and all the 617 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,200 different Blues women that were around Clara Smith, all the 618 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,840 Smith girls that were around in her time. 619 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,920 You know that some of their songs were actually openly 620 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,920 lesbian songs, which is kind of amazing, and that people were 621 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,480 actually quite relaxed in 1920s in my life tale about being a 622 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,600 lesbian and being gay. And so that's an interesting 623 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,680 thing in itself. It took a bit of years before 624 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,480 the kind of refreshing kind of came in that way. 625 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,040 So people were open openly lesbian the open rent parties, 626 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,600 house parties where people would have see women having sex as 627 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,640 much as they see pretrosexuals having sex and men having sex. 628 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:19,400 I'd love to be at one of those parties and the and the last 629 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,200 thing that she, yeah, she fought off the Clifford clan single 630 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,640 handedly. I wrote a poem about called 12 631 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,200 Bar Bessie. But yeah, she's a real 632 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:29,680 character. I written a whole book about her 633 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,000 and I could talk about her to Lucas come home. 634 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,120 But Billie Holiday is often the person that we talk about. 635 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,520 But Billie Holiday wouldn't be Billie Holiday. 636 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,200 Bessie Smith hadn't come before her. 637 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,760 And the day that Billie Holiday recorded her first album, Bessie 638 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,920 Smith was in the very same studio recording her last. 639 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,160 So if that's not passing a baton, I don't know what it is. 640 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,840 And similarly, there's this through line from Bessie Smith 641 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,040 to Nina Simone as well, right? Nina Simone was heavily inspired 642 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,680 by Bessie Smith. He was and she sings quite and 643 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,960 and Nina Simone sings like, for instance, a song that I love 644 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:05,680 with Bessie's and give me a pig's foot. 645 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:15,760 Give me a pig. Foot and don't care. 646 00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:19,200 Meena Simone's version of it's probably a bit better. 647 00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:23,200 And then Bessie, there's something that she she puts into 648 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,960 the song that's not there. And the sugar in my Bowl song, 649 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,120 which you requested at the gig, I believe, does that not it's 650 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,200 not a cover, but it references Bessie Smith's song about 651 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:33,600 needing a little sugar in my bowl. 652 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,240 It's all interconnected, really, the word music interconnected 653 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,040 and connected in ways people don't even know, you know, 654 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,640 because often people separate the categories and they say this 655 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:48,920 is jazz, this is folk, this is ragtime Blues, you know, this is 656 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:53,560 pop, this is hip hop. But actually, as you can see, 657 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,720 even just during these selections, there's a lot of 658 00:39:55,720 --> 00:39:58,840 fluidity between these. There's a connection between 659 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:03,920 Euan McCall and Roberto Flack and Nina Simone and Bessie Smith 660 00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:06,160 and all four of these people all connect. 661 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,720 In surprising ways. And that's why I picked them as 662 00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:11,840 well, because I wanted to pick a group of people that I could 663 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,920 talk about in an interconnected way because we we tend to 664 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,000 separate things in in life. But actually I'm really 665 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:20,960 interested in how things join up. 666 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,720 Me too Jackie. And I understand why as humans 667 00:40:24,720 --> 00:40:29,400 we have this bias to categories and putting things in boxes. 668 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,480 But as listeners to this are probably thinking themselves, 669 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:37,680 well, that is like the anithema to like the queer experience. 670 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,560 We don't want to be in boxes even though our lizard brains 671 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,480 tell us to. And those categories of like 672 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,560 music, like really down to this granular level don't benefit 673 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:49,920 anyone. And I think we are slowly moving 674 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,240 away from that because they are truly of no benefit to anyone. 675 00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:57,040 Take something like country music, which is probably right 676 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,440 now at its commercial peak in the United States. 677 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:04,320 Yes, constantly. And more often than not, those 678 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,720 huge artists, as talented as they are, they are often white. 679 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,840 But it's in recent decades that there's there's been this 680 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,400 increase general knowledge and education around the roots of 681 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:19,160 country music in black music and folk music and Irish and Scots 682 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,040 music and music from around the world. 683 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,560 And when you see all these through lines come together, 684 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,240 it's like the categories are just a load of all bollocks 685 00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:29,720 actually, because music is everyone's and from everything. 686 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:31,280 Well, that's why I like the sinners. 687 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:32,560 You know the horror of us because of the way. 688 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,200 Love. It uses music and it has that 689 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,200 Scottish folk song. Yes. 690 00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:39,920 Will you go, Lassie? Go. 691 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,800 I mean, it's just so brilliant and so beautiful and so 692 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:44,600 surprising about the electrifying. 693 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,520 I could watch that whole film again like just. 694 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,320 Because me too. Just because of the music, it's 695 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,760 just like incredible. Really, really, really 696 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:52,520 incredible. All the. 697 00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,880 Flowers the. Mountain will you go, Lassie? 698 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:05,240 Go, Ricky. I'm being very greedy here 699 00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:08,480 because you have already shared one poem excerpt, but as we're 700 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,200 coming to the end, I would love if you would share one more 701 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,800 excerpt from a poem that you've written about Bessie Smith. 702 00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:19,920 Certainly this is poem I will call the Red Graveyard and which 703 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:25,800 was really about my dad's giving me of of the glues do a little 704 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,040 bit from it. I'm coming down the stairs in my 705 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,760 parents house. I'm 5 or 6 or 7. 706 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:37,400 There is fat, thick wallpaper. I always caress, bumping flower 707 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,200 into flower. She is singing. 708 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:45,320 Did they play anyone else ever? My father's feet tap a shiny 709 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:49,000 beat on the floor. Christ, my father says, that's 710 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:53,680 some voice she's got. I pick up the record cover and 711 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:59,680 now this is slow motion. My hands swoops, glides, swoops 712 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,040 again. I pick up the cover and my 713 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:07,640 fingers are all over her face, her black face, her magnificent 714 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:15,720 black face, that sound voice, his shoes dancing on the floor. 715 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,600 There are some stones that open in the night like flowers down 716 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,680 in the red graveyard where Bessie hunts her lovers. 717 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,720 There are stones that shake and weep in the heart of night, 718 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,880 going in the red graveyard where Bessie hunts and lovers. 719 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:39,600 What a privilege that I get to do this silly little podcast 720 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,640 where I get to talk to people over the Internet about music 721 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,800 that we love. And I'm here with a former 722 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,520 national poet of Scotland listening to a poem that you 723 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,600 wrote about Bessie Smith because your dad gave you the double 724 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,760 album. I just love twists and turns of 725 00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:57,960 life. It's remarkable, really. 726 00:43:57,960 --> 00:43:59,720 Special, it's been a total pleasure. 727 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:01,360 Thank you. And it's not a silly little 728 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:03,400 forecasters. It's a, it's a deepening thing 729 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,880 for a broadcast and I'm really impressed with the range of 730 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:10,400 people you speak to and the range of their interests because 731 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,560 it just shows you that we are many, we are very, we are 732 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,000 multiple. We come from all walks of life. 733 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,120 Us gay people, us lesbians, us queers, whatever, however we 734 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,880 choose to define ourselves, whatever name to colours, we, we 735 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:24,560 cover many, many different backgrounds. 736 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:26,960 When I remember growing up, people saying, oh, there's no 737 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,560 such thing as black gay people, I thought, do you want nonsense? 738 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,360 You know, black gay people, This is the beginning of time, but 739 00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,160 but it took ages to be confident enough to actually know that and 740 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,960 to meet to others, to other other kindred spin it. 741 00:44:39,240 --> 00:44:42,120 So yeah, I think your, your programme really, really proves 742 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,680 that the range of different people's lives, their different 743 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:50,080 expertise and it's really lovely to to keep on, especially in 744 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,360 these times when things feel like they're going backwards for 745 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,520 gay rights. Thanks very much, Jackie. 746 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,480 Jackie K, you are queer and thank you very much for your 747 00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,480 tracks. I'm very queer indeed. 748 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:04,760 It's been a pleasure.