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Hello, welcome to Tracks of Our 
Queers. 

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My name is Andy Gott and each 
episode I chat to a fascinating 

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great person about one song, one
album and one artist that have 

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soundtracked their life. 
This episode's guest came 

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passionately recommended by a 
previous guest, the Broadway 

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producer and author Eric 
Schnell. 

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Almost immediately after talking
to Eric, he insisted that he 

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connect me with one of the 
biggest music heads in his life,

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the actor John Benjamin Hickey. 
I knew the name was familiar, 

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and a quick glance at IMDb 
affirmed just how many films and

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TV shows I'd seen John in 
before. 

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Laura Linney's Co star in The 
Big C Massively underrated if 

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you ask me, Clint Eastwood's 
Flags of our Fathers, countless 

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episodes of Law and Order, 
Modern Family, importantly The 

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dad in Pitch Perfect. 
You get the gist. 

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But it's John's contributions to
the stage which continue to 

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channel his greatest work. 
From originating a role in 

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Terrence Mcnally's Love the Law,
Compassion in 1995, through to 

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the infamous 1998 revival of 
Cabaret, all the way up to 

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directing Sarah Jessica Parker 
and Matthew Broderick in Plaza 

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Suite on the West End, he's a 
noted award treader. 

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Not to mention the very first 
Tony Award winner on Tracks of 

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Our Queers after receiving the 
Best Actor award in 2011 for The

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Normal Heart. 
Now that we've got that 

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exhausting resume out of the 
way, it's critical to mention 

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that John once had his very own 
Tracks of Our Queers esque radio

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show on SiriusXM called My 
Favourite Song. 

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More than anything else, this 
sealed the deal on his 

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overqualification as a guest, 
and I get to turn the tables on 

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him with some of his own 
questions. 

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In this episode, Tracks of Our 
Queers is firmly and proudly A1 

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queer band. 
No studio, no production team, 

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no sound engineer. 
Although I crated the Madonna. 

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One day I might meet one. 
So if you enjoy this episode, 

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you can buy me a coffee at the 
link in the episode show notes. 

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All donations cover the costs of
making the show, which I 

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absolutely love doing. 
All right, over to John. 

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John Benjamin Hickey, Welcome to
Tracks of Our Queers. 

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I'm so happy to be here, Andy. 
I'm thrilled. 

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You've got the best name for a 
show. 

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I mean, even anything about it. 
You had me at Hello Tracks of 

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Great. 
I love it. 

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Look, it was a risk because it's
not a perfect pun, but it's 80% 

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of the way there. 
And it works. 

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It it works, I get it, you know.
Tell me about your earliest 

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musical memory. 
You know, is it a spoiler to say

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you let me know some of these 
questions before? 

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Oh, I could ponder it. 
I wouldn't be completely caught 

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off guard. 
So I've been thinking about it 

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so much, and as much as 
sometimes I had wished it were 

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different as I was growing up. 
I grew up in a small town in 

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Texas. 
So my earliest memories were 

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late 60s, early 70s AM radio in 
my dad's pickup truck of country

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music. 
And we called it country and 

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western music back then and a 
brilliant, brilliant artists and

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a great time in country, western
music. 

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And there was George Jones and 
Tammy Wynette. 

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There was Conway Twitty and 
Loretta Lynn, these great 

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couples. 
There was Johnny Cash. 

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There was Porter Wagner and 
Dolly Parton, who I had a 

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massive crush on, which should 
have been the first track of my 

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queerness that I recognised 
something special about Dolly 

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but didn't. 
Mean to be uncut, you know That 

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was the last thing on the mind. 
But you know, you'd have to be 

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gay to do that. 
But there was an extra thing 

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there for me. 
It was very scratchy, fuzzy, AM,

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country and Western music. 
My brother, who's four years 

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older than I am, would always 
try to switch it over to the 

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rock'n'roll stations. 
And later on, his musical taste 

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greatly influenced me because he
introduced me to some of the 

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great rock bands of the 60s and 
70s. 

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But the earliest memories were 
country western. 

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And I loved the gals, man. 
I loved Loretta and I loved 

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Dolly and I think I just 
recognised very early on a good 

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breakup song. 
The best breakup songs. 

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Now we have got some selections 
further than the track that 

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we're going to get to, and I 
don't want to talk about them 

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too early, but there's a 
crossover going on here. 

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There's a bit of a theme, but 
I'm going to 0 in on Dolly here.

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The way you just spoke about 
Dolly there. 

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I'm a huge Dolly fan, but for a 
really young, possibly doesn't 

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know that they're queer yet 
child coming across an Angel 

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like Dolly. 
Could that have been perhaps 

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your first meeting with a drag 
queen in a way just that kind of

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like larger than life character?
Absolutely. 

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I mean, you could say that about
a lot of those country ladies, 

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you know, you could think that 
about Loretta. 

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But nobody had the kind of the 
outsized carriage that Todd did 

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in every matter. 
The big breasts, the hair, the 

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makeup. 
And like any great drag queen, 

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an unbelievable sense of humour 
and sense of humour about 

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themselves. 
Like she was the first person I 

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understood who was in on the 
joke. 

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Like that's that's the first 
time I understood what that 

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meant. 
Like they were in on the joke. 

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So she was going to make fun of 
herself way before you were 

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going to make fun of her. 
And then, you know, next to that

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was the fact that she was a 
songwriter on the same level as 

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Bob Dylan and the great 
songwriters of that period. 

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I mean, she will go down in the 
history books as one of our 

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truly great songwriters. 
So yes, she had it all. 

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She was the real deal. 
I just want to also just say 

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quickly about her. 
You know, I came of age with her

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long before she was iconic. 
She was only a country girl 

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singer. 
You know when she was on the 

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Porter Wagner hour and she left 
that Porter Wagner show when you

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know, she wrote I will always 
love you for him as a way to say

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goodbye. 
Because she had clearly bigger 

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fields, bigger pastures. 
And so you know, the Dolly that 

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came later in her movie stardom,
in her pop heads. 

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I was there long before that. 
I recognised something kindred. 

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You are, you are a Vanguard 
Dolly fan. 

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You were there. 
So when do you think the switch 

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happened? 
When did she become the icon 

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that we know now? 
You know, I think she'd had 

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several pop pop hits or a couple
of pop hits Here You Come Again,

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which is her probably single and
one of my all time favourite 

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songs. 
And oddly enough, you know, she 

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and she talks about this. 
It's one of the only ones she 

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didn't write. 
It's a jerk off and it's a guy. 

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You know, it's it's who wrote 
all the songs with Carole King, 

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one of the great grill building 
writers. 

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And but but you know, it really 
just blew your head off when she

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did the movie of 9 to 5 because 
she went from being this country

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pop star to becoming a full 
blown movie star who was so self

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possessed that she could fucking
steal a movie from Jane Fonda 

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and Lily Tomlin. 
And she did. 

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I mean, they were all three 
equals, but that was 1980. 

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So I was, you know, I was 1718. 
Really starting to figure out 

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that something was really 
different about me, but really 

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trying to suppress all of that. 
But but jeez, I I don't. 

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If I saw that movie once in the 
movie theatre, I saw it 10 

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times. 
So it was I was doomed. 

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Yeah. 
But that's I think that's when 

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Dolly became, you know, 
something bigger than just a 

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music star. 
Sure. 

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Sure, I'm going to pick it up 
thread a little bit, but keep it

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attached to music. 
So you're 1718, you've just seen

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9 to 510 times in the cinema. 
What's going on with your music 

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taste at that time? 
Because for me, those late teens

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are when I'm kind of beginning 
to formulate your own taste 

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levels that will then go and 
evolve through your 20s and 30s 

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and later. 
But that's a really critical 

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time. 
So what were you listening to 

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then? 
You know, I thought a lot about 

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this because I've thought about 
it, of course, in the context of

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my queerness. 
I can go back much earlier than 

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17 and 18 to those country 
artists that I was talking 

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about. 
And my dad had a lot of Johnny 

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Cash records and Hank Williams, 
Bob Wills, he's very, very old 

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fashioned country stars. 
Johnny Cash was more cutting 

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edge. 
We had this singer-songwriter 

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named Kris Kristofferson who was
going to figure in a very, very 

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major way later in life when I 
was 1617. 

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But I loved his records because 
I loved what he looked like, but

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I loved his storytelling. 
I was really drawn to 

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storytellers and I don't know 
why, but there was something 

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barely haunting about his songs,
and I liked songs and music that

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kind of scared me in a weird 
way. 

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The other thing I think about 
is, you know, I came of age 

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very, very happily, and I'm so 
fortunate to have been young 

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when I was because it's still 
the time. 

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This was even before 8 tracks or
cassettes, so everything was a 

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disc, everything was a record 
album and I loved double albums.

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I loved playing the record and 
listening to it. 

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I think Captain Fantastic and 
the Brown Dirt Cowboy Elton 

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John, the major queer moment in 
my life. 

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Not that I had any notion, I 
mean had a notion of his 

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outlandishness in the same way I
did of Dolly Parton's 

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outlandishness. 
I did not think of him as gay in

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the same way that you didn't. 
One didn't think of Bowie as 

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gay. 
They were just other. 

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They were other. 
There wasn't that kind of. 

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We didn't have the context we 
have now. 

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Many wasn't out. 
That record was huge. 

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Weirdly enough, there was a 
movie out in 1973 when I was 

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1011 years old called American 
Graffiti and it was all 50s 

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music. 
Was that George? 

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Lucas before Star Wars, Yeah. 
Yeah, so it's the movie before 

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Star Wars and it, you know, 
starred every single person who 

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was in it, became a huge movie 
star for Herrick Ford, Suzanne 

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Somers, Richard Dreyfuss, Ron 
Howard, everybody in it. 

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It's it's a masterpiece of a 
movie. 

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It's one of my favourite movies.
I was weirdly addicted to that 

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record and that music, so there 
was something about the 

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nostalgia of it that I think 
touched a queer part of me. 

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These are the records I listened
to all the time. 

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Where exactly in Texas were you 
born or from? 

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Like what's home to you? 
I was born and raised outside of

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Dallas in a town called Plano, 
and we also had a farm outside 

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of the suburbs of Dallas. 
So I spent a lot of time in the 

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country in the pasture with 
horses and adults. 

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And so I had a real kind of 
idyllic Texas farm boy 

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childhood, and that's where all 
the country music, that's all we

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really listened to. 
And I heard you say on an 

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interview recently, like you and
your family had this passion for

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Western wear, like the whole 
deal. 

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00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,560
Yeah, yeah, I wear tennis shoes 
when I was a little kid, but as 

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soon as I started to have like a
say in what I wore, I wanted to 

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be like my brother who was a 
rodeo cow. 

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I love it. 
And by that I also mean I wanted

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to be straight. 
So, you know, a straight, like 

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cowboy boots to school wore 
Wranglers. 

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Now, you know. 
Of course, the irony of that is 

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nothing is hotter to a gay guy 
than a guy in Wrangler. 

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00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,480
Jeans do you nothing. 
So you guys have a you know 

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what? 
Western wear is huge in 

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Australia, so anytime as soon as
you leave the city, it's all 

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country. 
Cowboy hats, cowboy boots, 

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Wranglers. 
Yeah. 

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00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:17,160
You could actually kind of knew 
that. 

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00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:18,600
Yeah, right. 
There's actually a great 

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00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,640
Instagram, two or three 
Instagram accounts called 

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Wrangler Butts, and it's this 
guy. 

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Oh, they're really good. 
You should do research into 

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00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:28,480
that. 
Yeah. 

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So I as soon as I knew how to 
dress myself and got to pick out

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my own clothes, I went through a
pretty significant period of 

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trying to dress and be like my 
brother, like a cowboy. 

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I'm completely with you on how 
attractive cowboy boots and 

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wranglers are. 
But also, and this kind of links

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back to maybe the idea of like 
Dolly and Loretta as our first 

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00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,240
experiences the drag Queens is 
that western wear can often be 

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00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:04,880
fabulously camp and like glitter
and sparkly and the tassels and 

225
00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:09,400
the colours, even with men, even
with like straight men, the full

226
00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,080
western wear get up can be very 
camp. 

227
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,320
Absolutely. 
I've gone to a gay rodeo and 

228
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,040
I've been to plenty of straight 
rodeos. 

229
00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:17,920
The gay guys aren't turning it 
up. 

230
00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,080
You know, the boys they're 
doing, you know, they're 

231
00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,920
dressing like Jack and Ennis, 
who dressed like my brother. 

232
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,800
I mean, I have such memories of 
my brother was a real, a 

233
00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,800
professional rodeo cowboy. 
He was a world champ and he 

234
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,920
would come back on from the road
and he'd show up at like 2:00 in

235
00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,720
the morning at my mom and dad's 
house where I was still living 

236
00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:39,680
with like four or five Cowboys 
with him. 

237
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:41,680
And she would cook breakfast for
them. 

238
00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,280
And I'd just be sitting at the 
kitchen table just like, hello, 

239
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:49,000
boys, you know? 
So it's a very fine line between

240
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,640
a real cowboy and our dream of a
real cowboy. 

241
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,520
Because here I am thinking, Oh 
my gosh, I hope you had like 

242
00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:57,560
your own Brokeback Mountain 
experience. 

243
00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,360
But life isn't often like the 
movies, is it? 

244
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:02,960
It isn't. 
You know, I spent a lot of time,

245
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,920
you know, kind of like running 
from that. 

246
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,400
If I had met a gay cowboy when I
was 15 or 16 years old, I don't 

247
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,880
know what I would have done with
myself, What would have 

248
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:17,440
happened, But I certainly was 
immersed in that world and loved

249
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,720
it and still do. 
And you're so right about those,

250
00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,960
especially those women from that
time, were larger than life and 

251
00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,880
the way a drag queen is. 
So one of my favourite questions

252
00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:32,120
to ask anyone, wherever they are
in the world, who has built 

253
00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:37,160
their life in a major city, is 
how did you move from that small

254
00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,120
town to the big smoke? 
Tell me about your journey to 

255
00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,800
New York. 
I went to New York on a school 

256
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:50,520
trip in 1983, and there was an 
older woman in my arts class who

257
00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,800
went with us on this trip. 
She was about probably six or 

258
00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,280
seven years older than me, and 
we were kind of having a theme. 

259
00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:02,920
And she was very formative for 
me, first of all, in a big music

260
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:04,560
way. 
She's the person who turned me 

261
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,440
on to Joni Mitchell, who was the
next great sort of artist in my 

262
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,960
and she was also the one who was
like, you know, what really 

263
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,640
seems like you belong here in 
New York, which is probably her 

264
00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,240
way of saying like, I think 
you're gay and you need to come 

265
00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,680
out. 
So I came in 1983 to New York. 

266
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,320
I transferred from a College in 
Texas to Fordham University, 

267
00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,640
which is a great school in the 
city and was only planning on 

268
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,440
being there for two years. 
And then addition for the 

269
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,120
Juilliard School, which is our 
great school of drama there on a

270
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:34,520
whip. 
Never in a million years 

271
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,160
thinking I would get in and I 
got accepted, which is like, 

272
00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,000
really like winning the golden 
ticket. 

273
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,160
I mean, it's like you get in 
there and you're suddenly a New 

274
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,320
Yorker. 
So I never looked back. 

275
00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,080
I've been there 40 plus years 
now. 

276
00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,200
God, I can't believe it. 
Yeah. 

277
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,280
Yeah, and I've got to say, the 
career that you've had since is 

278
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,520
it's overwhelming for anyone to 
scan your IMDb, your Wikipedia 

279
00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,520
page. 
You've done it all, you've seen 

280
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,360
it all. 
You've worked with everyone, and

281
00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:02,880
your career spans far beyond 
your queerness. 

282
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:07,640
You've done so many different 
roles, tremendous diversity, but

283
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,079
I'm here to ask you about some 
of the queer icons you've worked

284
00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:12,040
with yourself. 
Just on this very small list, 

285
00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,119
I've got Sarah Jessica Parker, 
Cynthia Nixon, Sarah Paulson, 

286
00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,440
Alan Cumming, of course, your 
bestie Andy Cohen. 

287
00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,040
That actually, as I say that out
loud, sounds like an incredible 

288
00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,079
dinner party to me. 
Really does. 

289
00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,040
I would love to be at that party
because I never get to see that 

290
00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:29,520
group of people together. 
And they're such incredible 

291
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,440
people, so many of whom you just
mentioned. 

292
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:34,520
I've never had the chance to 
work with Sarah Paulson. 

293
00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,080
I've just known her forever and 
a huge fan but Sarah Jessica 

294
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,400
Parker and Alan Cumming are two 
people I've worked with and 

295
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,640
known and Sarah Jessica I count 
as one of my dearest friends and

296
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:52,120
have watched her new Her Way pre
Sex in the City which you'll 

297
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,080
consider herself a real 
journeyman actor and she still 

298
00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,240
does. 
I mean, I think it's she on 

299
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,280
record saying her greatest fear 
of Sex in the City and it 

300
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,880
becoming the success she I don't
think anybody ever dreamed of it

301
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,280
becoming. 
The thing that it has become was

302
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,800
that she would use her kind of 
journeyman status. 

303
00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,520
So I really have that in common.
I think we both consider 

304
00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:20,320
ourselves people who job 
ourselves out to hopefully great

305
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,800
directors and great writers. 
And I think that's the way you 

306
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:28,040
sustain a career as long, 
frankly, as long as I've been 

307
00:18:28,120 --> 00:18:31,440
doing it, you know, as you kind 
of, you know, you go where the 

308
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:35,920
work is instead of trying to 
figure out what the work is or 

309
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,240
figure out a strategy. 
I don't think there is such a 

310
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,720
thing as a strategy. 
I mean, maybe some people have 

311
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,320
it, but people just, you know, 
go where the work is. 

312
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,880
And these who I think I admire 
all of those people you 

313
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,440
mentioned so much because they 
do that. 

314
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,600
And the one person who was my 
bestie, who I never thought 

315
00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:00,440
would ever be able to, you know,
usurp me as far as status or 

316
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,960
celeb or anything like that. 
Andy Cohen, because he worked in

317
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,600
Morning News like he, he wasn't 
going to be famous. 

318
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,600
And now, of course, he's the 
most famous of all. 

319
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,000
I have been with him on the 
street where somebody asks Sarah

320
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,480
Jessica to take a picture of 
them with Andy. 

321
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,000
She's like, oh, OK. 
You're a regular, are you not on

322
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,120
his TV show? 
But watch what happens live. 

323
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:25,360
Yes, he has been very any time I
have something to promote, he 

324
00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:28,680
has me front and centre and we 
have such a good time together. 

325
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:34,120
He's just the most warmest, most
gracious friend and host of his 

326
00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:36,640
show of. 
Course, now I can't go past 

327
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,840
having my first ever Tony Award 
winner on tracks of our careers 

328
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,000
without asking you just a 
question about your incredible 

329
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,280
performance in The Normal Heart 
in 2011 for your role of Felix 

330
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,360
Turner. 
But to keep it relevant to the 

331
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:52,440
topic of this podcast, The 
Normal Heart, of course, set 

332
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,200
through seventies, 80s that that
time that we all know a lot 

333
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,200
about, you know, the HIV AIDS 
crisis, especially in New York. 

334
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:04,160
Where does music show up, if at 
all, in your practise when 

335
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,680
preparing for a new role? 
Because I guess what I'm getting

336
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,880
at is, was music relevant to you
at all in preparing for a play 

337
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,880
like The Normal Heart, where 
that time period is so 

338
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,680
evocative? 
Of the music that people were 

339
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:18,920
listening to. 
It's such an amazing question, 

340
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,480
and the reason is it's amazing, 
and I really mean this. 

341
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:25,400
I think if you would ask me 
about any other job I have done,

342
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,200
successful or otherwise, and 
you'd ask me about what music I 

343
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:34,560
listen to, to either help myself
or calm myself down, I would 

344
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:40,320
either not remember at all or 
remember maybe one or two songs 

345
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:44,320
that I would work out. 
This particular play, The Normal

346
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,800
Heart, which takes place in 
198384 as the crisis was born, 

347
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,520
unfolding in New York. 
Just the most amazing, harrowing

348
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,800
horror show of a play. 
And what's what our great 

349
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,360
director George Wolf said, Think
of it as a horror movie. 

350
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,960
You guys are all in a cap and 
there's something scratching at 

351
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,480
the door and you don't know what
it is because you know these 

352
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,360
people didn't know what it was 
at the time. 

353
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:11,720
We all of us backstage the 
extraordinary company of actors 

354
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,320
Jim Parsons, Lee Pace, Joe 
Mantello, Ellen Bark and Patrick

355
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,720
Breed. 
We listened to the best disco 

356
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,720
music from the time and like, 
really obscure. 

357
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,800
We'd want something really 
greasy at the end of the night 

358
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,240
'cause we were, you know, we 
walk off stage and just have a 

359
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,840
huge drink waiting for us. 
You know when when you're doing 

360
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,400
a play like that, dealing with 
such a horrible thing, such a 

361
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:41,280
terrible calamity, the gallows 
humour off stage and the music 

362
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,360
off stage has to be a has to run
contras. 

363
00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:47,440
You know, you have to be able 
not to laugh at the thing, but 

364
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,720
to laugh at each other and to 
laugh at the pain that you're 

365
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,080
going through and that you're 
probably experiencing with an 

366
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,800
audience every night. 
So you have to come off stage 

367
00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,000
and blow off steam. 
The greatest song from that time

368
00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:04,320
that we would listen to. 
Tommy Mottola lives on the road.

369
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,320
Oh sure, sure, sure, la fab, 
sure shey la fab, sure say Oh my

370
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,720
God, anybody listening who wants
to build a listen to that song? 

371
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,440
It's not like an on the nose 
disco song, but it was very much

372
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:29,360
of that period and it was just 
our weird little go to warm up 

373
00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:32,400
song. 
We loved that film so much, and 

374
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,840
we danced and we would dance 
before the show to that song or 

375
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,040
to, you know, anything that Chic
and Nile Rogers had done or done

376
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,520
us and why down to it, too. 
But you know, to get your 

377
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,760
engines going for something like
that, you need music. 

378
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,160
Absolutely. 
And I love that disco in all of 

379
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,520
its forms was there for you 
because it can lift you up and 

380
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,680
power you through. 
But there's darkness and 

381
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,600
melancholy in Disco 2 and a lot 
of emotion. 

382
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,720
And maybe that points to the 
time period that it was made in.

383
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:03,520
I'm not sure. 
Yeah. 

384
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,800
And I mean, aren't you? 
I'm sure you've talked about 

385
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,680
this on the show before. 
Disco's had the last laugh, has 

386
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:09,400
it? 
Absolutely. 

387
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,520
Dead and Disco is this, and they
all burned the records at that. 

388
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:18,480
It's just an unbelievable genre 
of music that has not just stood

389
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,160
the test of time, it now 
transcends time. 

390
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,040
It's very much about that time 
and place, but anybody can feel 

391
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:26,320
that. 
Blissful. 

392
00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:29,160
We better talk about your 
selections because they're big 

393
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,600
ones and you've referenced a few
of them already and I've got so 

394
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,480
many questions about them. 
We're going to talk about a 

395
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,600
track, an album, and an artist 
that have separately in some way

396
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,200
soundtracks your queerness, your
queer journey. 

397
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,360
And yeah, we better dive in. 
So I'd love to hear what was the

398
00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:46,640
track that you picked and why? 
Well, it's a. 

399
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,040
It's an odd 1, isn't it? 
Isn't it? 

400
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,880
It's a song by Bobby Gentry, 
great singer-songwriter from 

401
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:55,360
1967 or 68. 
When I first heard this I was 

402
00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:59,080
probably 8-9, ten years old. 
It's called Old Ode to Billy Joe

403
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,840
it. 
Was the 3rd of June, another 

404
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:12,040
sleepy dusty Delta day. 
I was out chopping cotton and my

405
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:19,880
brother was bailing hay. 
And if you know this song, you 

406
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:24,880
know what a story it tells and 
what a mystery is at the centre 

407
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,840
of it. 
It does not reveal what it's 

408
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,880
about, but only through 
innuendo. 

409
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:38,680
And something really terrible 
happens to young people in this 

410
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,880
song. 
And I'm, I don't know, Eddie, 

411
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,600
and why it came to mind. 
I mean, there were other songs 

412
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,840
from my childhood that we've 
talked about that meant a lot to

413
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,680
me. 
But it checked all the boxes of 

414
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,920
a song that a kid like me was 
supposed to like because it was 

415
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,560
a country and it was, so it was 
safe. 

416
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,600
But there was something queer 
about that song. 

417
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,240
I don't know what it is. 
There was something other. 

418
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,080
There was something you don't 
tell your fucking parents about.

419
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,600
Today, Billy Joel McAlister 
jumped off the Tallahatchie 

420
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:18,960
Bridge. 
That's what that song's about. 

421
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,520
And weirdly enough, a movie got 
made based on the song some five

422
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,120
or six years after it was 
released. 

423
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,560
Movie called Ode to Billy Joe, 
starring Robbie Benson and great

424
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,600
Lynnis O'Connor. 
And the story they fleshed out 

425
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:37,440
for the song was that Billy Joel
had had a homosexual experience 

426
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,560
with somebody, and that's why he
killed himself, which is a 

427
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,840
terribly homophobic movie I'm 
sure has not aged well at all. 

428
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,920
But it was deeply sensitive 
about its subject. 

429
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,040
The movie was. 
But the song is an absolute 

430
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,000
masterpiece of storytelling and 
songwriting. 

431
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,560
You know, Bobby Gentry went on 
to write one of the great queer,

432
00:25:58,120 --> 00:26:01,640
iconic songs of all time called 
Fancy that Reba did have. 

433
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,640
Woman who pimps her daughter out
and said like her mom was hooker

434
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,000
and she her daughter out. 
Here's your one chance fancy. 

435
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,000
Don't let me down. 
Yeah, but God was is legendary. 

436
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:27,200
And this song, ode to Billy Joe,
for those who don't know it just

437
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,440
is about a family sitting around
a dinner table and they just are

438
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:36,120
talking about the town gossip. 
And it's revealed that somebody,

439
00:26:36,120 --> 00:26:40,320
this kid has killed himself. 
Oh, it's and it's to this day 

440
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,480
sends chills up my spine just to
just to talk about it. 

441
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:50,120
So Andy, be my doctor. 
You tell me why that was a queer

442
00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:52,640
song. 
I saw him at the sawmill 

443
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:58,640
yesterday on chocolate. 
Ridge it. 

444
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:03,760
Is a marvellous song and the way
that it unfolds, so there's this

445
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:08,960
scene around the dinner table is
so masterful to put in the form 

446
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,200
of a pop song. 
So what we're listening to here 

447
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,240
is a song that you could have 
heard on the radio, but it's 

448
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:19,160
talking about suicide. 
It's quite gothic, I'd say, dark

449
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,720
and gothic and mysterious. 
But this was being played on the

450
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,720
radio and I believe it sold 
millions of records. 

451
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,600
Was a massive, massive head. 
And as you describe the song, 

452
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,400
we're talking about a family who
is describing, describing this 

453
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,480
boy who has killed himself. 
And halfway through the song, 

454
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,080
the mother or something says, 
oh, and by the way, somebody saw

455
00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:43,920
you last week with that boy up 
on that bridge. 

456
00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:48,480
So suddenly the kid who's 
narrating the song becomes the 

457
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,560
centre of the song. 
And in that, like that sentence 

458
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,440
in itself is, is that not 
something that a lot of queer 

459
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,400
kids can relate to in terms of 
being spotted with someone 

460
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,120
perhaps? 
Absolutely. 

461
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,520
Yeah. 
It worked on me on an 

462
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,800
unconscious level, yes. 
Interesting. 

463
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,080
And how? 
Much so that it's choking me up.

464
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,760
Let me call. 
It's really bad pollen season 

465
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,120
here in New York. 
So forgive my allergies. 

466
00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:19,320
Yeah, it scared me, that song. 
How might you say your 

467
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,600
relationship is perhapsed 
changed with her over time? 

468
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,120
Is there a way that you viewed 
it when you first heard it? 

469
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,120
Is that different to how you 
view it now? 

470
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,800
No, I think I feel exactly the 
same way. 

471
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:34,960
There are something so elemental
and touch you so deeply. 

472
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,240
I feel the same way I felt when 
I was a kid and heard it. 

473
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,960
And it's not just nostalgia, 
it's something deep, deep inside

474
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,240
of me. 
Like, you know, my relationship 

475
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,560
to Bruce Springsteen, who's one 
of my favourite artists, has 

476
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,120
changed over the years. 
My relationship to Joni Mitchell

477
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,600
has probably changed over the 
years to Stinky wonder to but 

478
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,200
but there's something. 
And that's why I picked the 

479
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:00,760
song. 
When I was thinking about it, I 

480
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,120
was like, that song still makes 
me feel the exact way it made me

481
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,440
feel when I was a kid. 
I think that's magical. 

482
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:08,440
Yeah, it is. 
It's a. 

483
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,240
It's a magical. 
Song, I love that. 

484
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,880
Thank you very much for sharing 
the album that you pics. 

485
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,200
I'm very excited for this one. 
OK, now we talked a little bit 

486
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,120
about the country artists who 
were, you know, who were in my 

487
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,040
dad's record cabinet that I was 
not allowed to touch. 

488
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,400
And weirdly enough, in that 
record cabinet was the 

489
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,520
soundtrack of Mary Poppins. 
My mom and dad loved that movie.

490
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,560
I love it. 
There was Judy Garland's The 

491
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,880
Star Is Born. 
There was plenty of queer 

492
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,480
content in that record cabinet 
that maybe I was Heather on some

493
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,080
unconscious level. 
Like it's felt like slightly 

494
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,000
radioactive to me. 
That seems a little 2020 

495
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:47,640
hindsight, but Kristofferson was
a singer-songwriter who I loved,

496
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,000
and I loved his music and his 
storytelling. 

497
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,480
He wrote some weird, sort of 
slightly scary songs too. 

498
00:29:54,320 --> 00:30:01,360
I took my harpoon out of my 
dirty red bandana and was 

499
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,280
blowing sad while Bobby sang the
Blues. 

500
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,040
Drawn to those. 
But he was also Andy. 

501
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,280
He was just so fucking 
beautiful. 

502
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,800
I mean, physical. 
So beautiful. 1977 I think it 

503
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:23,400
was same year 2 movies came out,
Rocky and a Star is born. 

504
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:28,280
My dad saw Rocky like I saw it 
nine to five later saw it like 8

505
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,560
times in the movie theatre. 
I saw stars born with my I think

506
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,760
I saw it with my parents. 
They both loved it. 

507
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,520
My dad the next week was going 
to see Rocky for like the 4th 

508
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,040
5th time and he wanted me to go 
back with him because I love 

509
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,000
that movie too and still do. 
And I was like, Dad, when you go

510
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,440
see Rocky, can I go see A Star 
is Born again? 

511
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,520
And I don't think my dad had any
notion of Barbra Streisand as 

512
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,080
being somebody who can make a 
boy gay, you know, But or that 

513
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,840
if your boy likes Barbra 
Streisand, you better be careful

514
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,200
because that might mean he's 
queer. 

515
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:03,160
But lutely meant I was queer. 
But my thing was not the both of

516
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,520
them, their relationship. 
Kris Kristofferson. 

517
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,800
Barbra Streisand, the soundtrack
to her version of A Star Is 

518
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:26,280
Born. 
With a double album. 

519
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,800
The cover art photo was by 
Francesco Scavullo, the great 

520
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:31,960
photographer. 
They were both, you know, 

521
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,120
shirtless. 
Kristofferson was at the height 

522
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,040
of his beauty and there was just
something about him in this 

523
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,880
movie that I fell in love with 
Andy. 

524
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,960
It's the equivalent of, I don't 
know, when I was a kid, most 

525
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,280
kids dads bought there were 
there were two vaccines, 

526
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,640
glossies that were, you know, 
naked women. 

527
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:50,320
Playboy, of course, being the 
most famous. 

528
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,080
But Penthouse was the one I 
always went to because they 

529
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:57,520
always had one pictorial thing 
of a guy and a girl fucking. 

530
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:02,360
They were it was staged, you 
know, but soft core porn and I 

531
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,920
didn't know well, I know I know 
now, but I always wanted to see 

532
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,680
that because I wanted to look at
the boy. 

533
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:17,840
So, but this, this soundtrack 
just opened me up to A world of 

534
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:22,560
singing and songwriting and 
Streisand producing and and she 

535
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:27,440
was playing a fledgling singer 
and he made her a * And he had 

536
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,840
been a big rock star a la like, 
you know, Greg Allman. 

537
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:38,560
There was just so much for my 
early queer sensibility to be 

538
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,720
turned off. 
I and there was a rock'n'roll 

539
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,200
sensibility that was safe enough
to like. 

540
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,560
It was safe enough. 
It wasn't like Funny Girl, which

541
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,920
was like, well, if you like 
Funny Girl, you're just as gay 

542
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,760
as you can possibly don't. 
Tell me not to live just 

543
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:55,760
sitting. 
Butter life's candy and the 

544
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,600
sun's a bowl of butter. 
Don't bring around a cloud to 

545
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:05,080
rain on my parade. 
Funny Girl came much later to 

546
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:10,360
me, but the way to be 16 years 
old, 1516 years old, and to 

547
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,200
experience Christopherson and 
Streisand, The star is born. 

548
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:20,480
There are more important pieces 
of music in my life, but none as

549
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,400
important as what how it made me
feel and looking back was like, 

550
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:30,040
oh, I was queer and this spoke 
to my queerness. 

551
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,760
I was because I was so in love 
with him and I was in love with 

552
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:46,840
her. 
I'm so thrilled to hear that the

553
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,680
brief of this podcast, which can
be quite strenuous and painful 

554
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,640
for guests to draw out their 
selections for. 

555
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,640
It's resonated with you because 
this, like you said, you've got 

556
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,040
a million albums, which is so 
important to you. 

557
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:04,880
But you zeroed in on why this 
spoke to that young queer 

558
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,920
teenager on that journey. 
I I'm going to tell you that 

559
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,920
last night I watched A Star Is 
Born for the first time with a 

560
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,159
friend. 
You did, and and you got up 

561
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:18,080
early and came to. 
Oh God, Andy, please tell me 

562
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,280
that you liked it. 
Wow, We had a fantastic Friday 

563
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,120
evening, I'll tell you that. 
We ordered pizzas, we had a 

564
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,480
bottle of wine. 
It was marvellous. 

565
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,800
So my only experience with the A
Star Is Born universe, of 

566
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,480
course, is the most recent Lady 
Gaga Brad Cooper reinvention. 

567
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,160
But I know that the law 
stretches back very far and I've

568
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,120
been fascinated how the first 
one was from like the 30s. 

569
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:02,800
And then of course, Judy 
Garland. 

570
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,600
And you have your own very 
special relationship to Judy 

571
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,600
Garland, which I'd love to talk 
about if we have time. 

572
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,040
And then there was this moment 
in the 70s where the storyline 

573
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,760
switched from being a Hollywood 
actress to this musician on 

574
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,880
Jannu, which then Gaga took and 
evolved again. 

575
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,080
So I was fascinated about the 
Barbara version. 

576
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:26,720
I would say with these fresh 
eyes, I not to yuck your yums at

577
00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:33,880
all, but I, I was frustrated 
with how for two hours, this 

578
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:39,560
amazingly fabulously talented 
woman is chasing quite a 

579
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,040
pathetic shell of a man who 
needs to get his act together. 

580
00:35:43,240 --> 00:35:46,000
Because the title of the film is
A Star Is Born. 

581
00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:48,680
And I'm like, it's not about the
star being born. 

582
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,320
It's about this person who could
be a star chasing this. 

583
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:58,400
Oh, that's interesting. 
But I to hear you imagine you in

584
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,200
that cinema and going with your 
dad and being opened up to this 

585
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,680
entire world of rock'n'roll and 
sex. 

586
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,280
And he is a gorgeous man. 
Of course he's gorgeous and I'm 

587
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:09,760
so glad. 
My idea, because he was a bit of

588
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,440
a cowboy, you know? 
Yeah. 

589
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,320
I mean, I think it's, I don't 
know if I, I mean, I loved what 

590
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,000
Bradley Cooper did with it, but 
I don't know if they if they 

591
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,920
fixed that problem because that 
that's essential to the story. 

592
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,440
Story is that as she is rising, 
he is. 

593
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,640
And what does that do to a man? 
And what does that do to a woman

594
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:30,320
who loves a man? 
And what does that do to that 

595
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,720
woman's career? 
The thing I I, I to this day 

596
00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:36,400
admire about the Streisand 
version, you know, she took a 

597
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:41,640
lot of of, of heat for that, for
that terribly reviewed and they 

598
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,080
called it a narcissistic, you 
know, ego trip. 

599
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,360
And it was a mass biggest hit of
her career, a massive success, 

600
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,640
biggest box office hit of the 
year, I think just after Rocky. 

601
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,720
So the, you know, so she laughed
all the way to the bank or, or 

602
00:36:53,720 --> 00:36:55,680
cried all the way to the bank 
because they really gave it to 

603
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,520
her. 
But what she didn't do was take 

604
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,400
the iconic Judy Garland 
framework of a movie star and 

605
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:04,800
put it into the world of 
rock'n'roll. 

606
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:10,080
And I thought did so now 
effectively in the sense that I 

607
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:14,720
think Kristofferson made a very 
effective rock star, like a Greg

608
00:37:14,720 --> 00:37:16,560
Allman type because he's a 
musician. 

609
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,840
You believed he was a musical, 
kind of, you know, I mean, her 

610
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,240
becoming a rock star, it's a 
little like, you know, that was 

611
00:37:24,240 --> 00:37:27,200
a little hard to buy even at the
time when, you know, she she 

612
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,760
comes out and sings those two 
songs that his rock caught. 

613
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,520
There was a really mean review, 
I think, by Pauline Kael, who's 

614
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,000
one of our great critics, and 
said, you know, it was a little 

615
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,440
bit like if Kate Smith took over
Woodstock and Kate Smith was 

616
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,760
this old lady who sang the 
national anthem. 

617
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:58,920
It was a little hard to buy her 
being, you know, rock'n'roll 

618
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,560
baby. 
But man, some of those songs 

619
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,760
kill. 
And, you know, you asked me 

620
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,680
about has my relationship 
changed to Ode to Billy Joe? 

621
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,840
My relationship has changed to A
Star is Born. 

622
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:14,280
I mean, I don't, you know, I get
that it might be a bit of a 

623
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,720
guilty pleasure for me or. 
We don't do guilty pleasures on 

624
00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:20,240
this podcast, and I'm sure you 
sign off with that. 

625
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:21,200
Good, good, good. 
Yeah. 

626
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,960
That I hold it very dear to my 
heart for what it meant to me at

627
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,120
the time and would defend it to 
the very, you know, ends of the 

628
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,000
earth. 
But I get what you say. 

629
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,840
It's it should be all about her 
being, you know, on the rocket 

630
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,920
to the moon and she's being 
dragged down by this. 

631
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,800
They go to Santa Fe and they 
build that beautiful house like 

632
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,680
in three days. 
Oh my gosh, that house, for 

633
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:47,280
God's sake, the house and she's.
Wearing her, you know, ponchos 

634
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,320
and her like New Mexican Ocean. 
Oh, my God. 

635
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,920
And all of a sudden the record 
labels turn up and they're like,

636
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:54,680
you know, she's like the most 
famous woman in the world. 

637
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,400
And we haven't seen any of this 
rise or whatever anyway. 

638
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,000
But that is a part of each A 
Star Is Born film. 

639
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,160
So it's interesting. 
And my last point on this really

640
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,160
is I'm not completely new to 
Barbra Streisand. 

641
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,320
I love many of her albums and 
I'm not sure I can tackle her 

642
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,400
enormous autobiography just yet.
But I think she's really funny 

643
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,440
and very smart and her career is
fascinating. 

644
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,880
And I love that she is one of 
those kind of vanguard gay 

645
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,120
icons. 
Like before Madonna and Cher 

646
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,280
there was Barbra Streisand and 
so she intrigues me. 

647
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:30,800
And with this film specifically,
it is textbook treatment of a 

648
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:35,640
bold, hard working direct woman 
with a vision. 

649
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,880
Because the way that she was 
spoken about in the press is of 

650
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:44,160
course the stereotypical bitch, 
difficult, awful to work with, 

651
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,240
all these horrible female 
associated adjectives. 

652
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,080
But with a man, it's pioneer 
visionary. 

653
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:52,480
Perfectionist. 
Perfectionist. 

654
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,880
Yeah, yeah. 
But when it's her, she's Yeah, 

655
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,360
you're absolutely right. 
So while we because we're on her

656
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,360
side, we can acknowledge those 
imperfections and flaws. 

657
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,560
It's kind of like if anyone else
criticises her, I'll defend her.

658
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,400
I will absolutely defend her, 
yes, and I will defend that 

659
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,120
movie and nobody. 
I completely get what there is 

660
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,480
to kind of poke at. 
But boy, you know, I mean, I 

661
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,920
thought long and hard about that
question. 

662
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:19,920
And I think one of the things 
that's great about your show, 

663
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,120
Andy, not to go off on too much 
of A tangent, but is that it's 

664
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,680
contextualised in a person's 
queerness or their relationship 

665
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:28,200
to queerness. 
I don't know if everybody's 

666
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:29,960
queer on your show. 
I hope so. 

667
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,960
You know, I hosted, we talked a 
little bit about this. 

668
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:37,120
I hosted a radio show for Andy 
Cohen for his SiriusXM network 

669
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,320
called My Favourite Song. 
I hosted it for a couple of 

670
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,080
years. 
Very hard to find it now and 

671
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:42,840
they should put it back in their
archives. 

672
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,720
I think Andy's mad at me for not
doing it anymore because I kind 

673
00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:48,800
of got busy doing other things. 
But it was a show where you'd 

674
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,160
come on and you would say what 
was your, you know, what was 

675
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:52,560
your wedding song? 
What's your Mama? 

676
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,000
What's your favourite sad song? 
What's your favourite Beatles 

677
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:56,880
song? 
Very specific to the person who 

678
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,120
was coming on. 
But I wanted to call it my 

679
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,440
favourite blank because you, I'm
sure you've run into this when 

680
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,640
somebody asks you what's your 
favourite movie, what's your 

681
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,080
favourite book, what's your 
favourite song? 

682
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,480
I immediately draw a blank and 
and also it fucking depends on 

683
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,560
what day you ask me what my 
favourite is. 

684
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,480
You know that can that can 
change. 

685
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,920
I mean, it can. 
So I'm making a point with this 

686
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,640
by saying it. 
It really helped being able to 

687
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,960
contextualise it, you know, in 
relationship to my, to who I was

688
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,440
as a young gay boy, heir to 
being that and didn't want to be

689
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,440
that, but was drawn to that. 
And, you know, so I, it, it gave

690
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,320
me something to think about 
other than just reaching into 

691
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,080
the black hole of what is my 
favourite record. 

692
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,400
I don't know, I don't know. 
I'm so glad, I'm really glad to 

693
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,960
hear that, and maybe my 
favourite song will make a 

694
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,240
comeback one day, who knows? 
Will you be a guest? 

695
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,880
I'd love to, it would be a 
dream, but yes. 

696
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:54,440
I will do it for that reason 
alone. 

697
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:59,120
Artist Your artist Who and why? 
Who the hell did I pick? 

698
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,720
Linda Ronstadt. 
Oh my God, Ronstadt. 

699
00:42:01,720 --> 00:42:05,040
Yeah, I mean, I because why? 
The reason I, I got distracted 

700
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,680
for a minute there because I've 
mentioned several of my 

701
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,080
favourite artists that I would 
have picked. 

702
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:14,360
You know, I went through huge 
Bruce Springsteen phase once I 

703
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,400
became a like a college, maybe 
just out of college. 

704
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:23,360
And I was so proud of my fandom 
because it was such a straight 

705
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:27,120
guy, you know, that homophobic, 
scared, loved that I, and I 

706
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:41,000
still just worship the guy. 
Billy Joel, huge Stevie Wonder. 

707
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,400
And as a gay guy through the 90s
in New York, Whitney. 

708
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:50,000
I was a massive Whitney fan, a 
massive Madonna fan, gone to see

709
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,080
Madonna with Andy Cohen so many 
times. 

710
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:53,640
So there's a lot of people I 
could have picked. 

711
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:55,760
Why did I pick Linda Ronstadt? 
I've been. 

712
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:05,800
Cheated, been mistreated. 
When will I be loved? 

713
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:20,560
Because she is been my most 
consistent friend and ally and 

714
00:43:20,720 --> 00:43:25,240
she is a dream to me. 
She is the ultimate girl singer 

715
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:30,600
and she was underestimated a 
bit. 

716
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:32,560
She didn't write her own stuff 
the way to. 

717
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:37,840
Of course Joni, a genius, did. 
But then Linda went on and just 

718
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:43,920
defied every genre expectation 
of her by saying I want to make 

719
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,960
a record of old standards, 40s 
and 50s standards. 

720
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,040
The record company said over, no
fucking way. 

721
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:52,800
We're not going to do it. 
We're not paying for a dime of 

722
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:53,520
this. 
She did it. 

723
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:55,880
It became the biggest selling 
album of that year. 

724
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,600
She did the same thing with 
Mexican music for Mexican 

725
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:12,280
Heritage. 
An absolutely Slade she has, 

726
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:16,520
she's a profound artist to me 
because she's, she's got such 

727
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,640
extraordinary technique. 
She's got the technique of a 

728
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,680
Broadway star, you know, like 
somebody who would do it 8 * a 

729
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,360
week, like a Patti Lu Pone or a 
Bernadette Peters or an Audra 

730
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,760
McDonald. 
But she was a pop star, and from

731
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:34,560
very early on, I bought her 
records and I loved how eclectic

732
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,840
they were. 
And I just, I always go to her. 

733
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:41,800
You asked earlier, you know, 
what music do you listen to 

734
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,400
before or after to get yourself 
up or down something? 

735
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,760
She's my best friend that way. 
She is my closest companion. 

736
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,560
I have all of her records. 
I have all The Beatles, too. 

737
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,440
And I'm obsessed with the Stevie
Wonder Canon. 

738
00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:00,840
But there's something about 
Linda's records that just you 

739
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,160
feel very close to my heart. 
I nearly teared up myself when 

740
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,400
you first said that. 
She's my best friend who's 

741
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,440
always been there because I 
don't think I've ever. 

742
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,160
We might have talked about it in
a roundabout way, but no one has

743
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:15,480
ever explicitly talked about 
their artist on this show, at 

744
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:19,720
least in those terms. 
And it means everything just to 

745
00:45:19,720 --> 00:45:22,560
hear that I know exactly what 
she means to you to hear that 

746
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,200
phrase in a musical context 
because she's been there for 

747
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,160
most of your life. 
You've got these albums that you

748
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,680
can go back to and dive into 
whenever you want. 

749
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,040
And each of those individual 
albums, I'm sure remind you of 

750
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,360
different memories or make you 
feel different emotions. 

751
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,800
And her eclectic Ness, it's such
a part of who she is. 

752
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,240
And I've heard her talk about 
how all the different genres 

753
00:45:45,240 --> 00:45:49,520
she's touched, from mariachi to 
opera to gospel to R&B or what 

754
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,080
she was listening to when she 
grew up, which is fine. 

755
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,240
You know, a lot of us listened 
to eclectic music when we grew 

756
00:45:54,240 --> 00:45:56,120
up. 
But she then turned that into a 

757
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,080
career and was so successful in 
it for. 

758
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:01,600
I love that she's she's your 
best friend and. 

759
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,200
She she, you know, took a lot of
Flack for doing, she did a kind 

760
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:08,840
of new wave record. 
I think it's called Mad Love. 

761
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,800
In the 80s she did a couple of 
Elvis Costello songs and I think

762
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,720
maybe even Elvis was like she 
has no business singing my 

763
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,760
music, I'm a punk. 
Of course that hasn't aged well.

764
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:29,280
Whereas her music, what she did 
with it has aged very well. 

765
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:35,320
And also, I would say to Andy, 
she was weirdly kind of safe, 

766
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,200
you know, as you could. 
I went to see her two or three 

767
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,040
times in concert when I was a 
kid. 

768
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,480
I could tell my buddies in high 
school who wanted to see the 

769
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,040
Eagles or who or Boston or 
Journey. 

770
00:46:47,240 --> 00:46:48,760
I was like, can we go see Linda 
Ronstadt? 

771
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:50,280
And they were like, fucking hey,
man. 

772
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,320
Yeah, we'll go see that. 
Because she was, like, hot. 

773
00:46:53,720 --> 00:46:56,680
You know, she was like, you 
could be into her because she 

774
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,720
was hot. 
But to me, she touched my 

775
00:46:59,720 --> 00:47:04,520
queerness, I think, in a bit. 
I mean, just like gay kids love 

776
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,880
ladies who sing. 
She was mine. 

777
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:08,600
She was mine. 
And but. 

778
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,560
But you, you know, you. 
It could be slightly coded. 

779
00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:15,200
Isn't that a funny part of any 
kind of like female singer or 

780
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,480
pop stars career where when they
begin, because they're often a 

781
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:22,360
lot younger and very sexy, all 
the straight guys love them and 

782
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,440
then as their career goes on, 
the straight guys, it's kind of 

783
00:47:25,720 --> 00:47:27,480
fall off but the gays stick 
around. 

784
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:29,600
Gays stick around, the gays 
stick around. 

785
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,840
And and it's so funny you bring 
that up because the opposite of 

786
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,840
that or the just the other side 
of that coin when we were 

787
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,240
talking about Elton and Captain 
Fantastic and the Brown Cowboy 

788
00:47:39,240 --> 00:47:42,560
and Elton John. 
But a huge figure in my musical 

789
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:44,200
personal. 
I mean, I don't know him 

790
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,240
personally, but he's just meant 
so much to me. 

791
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,840
I went to see him in concert, 
probably it's been about 10 

792
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,480
years ago now, and a friend of 
mine had worked for him. 

793
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,640
So I got really good seats. 
I paid for them, got really 

794
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:55,520
great seats and I was 
surrounded. 

795
00:47:55,520 --> 00:48:00,720
This is in New York and I was 
surrounded by a crowd of guys 

796
00:48:00,720 --> 00:48:04,840
his age and they were all 
straight guys from New Jersey. 

797
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:09,840
And I realised like, oh, long 
before there was queer Elton, 

798
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,880
before there was out of the 
closet gay icon Elton, leader of

799
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:18,600
our, you know, 'cause then a 
great, our great advocate and 

800
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,280
star. 
He belonged to them and he still

801
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,360
does the same way what we did, 
you know, like those guys loved 

802
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,040
his queerness. 
It was not talked about and 

803
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,480
that's not a good thing. 
But that did not, nothing could 

804
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:35,400
ever stop them from him being 
there. 

805
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,000
He belonged. 
And that was a beautiful thing 

806
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,000
to see. 
Like, oh, he's Alton, man. 

807
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:44,080
My first major introduction to 
Linda Onstad was actually 

808
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:52,440
through the trio album The. 
Hills were alive with 

809
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:58,840
wildflowers. 
Which she did with Dolly Parton 

810
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,320
and Emmylou Harrison. 
We're going to keep this firmly 

811
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:03,040
about Linda. 
But I couldn't go past this 

812
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,280
because you've already talked 
about your own love for Dolly. 

813
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:10,960
And the trio album is such a 
magical masterpiece of the 

814
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,320
bringing together of these three
quite different voices and that 

815
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,160
joyous harmony that nothing else
could replicate. 

816
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,840
But specifically the song 
Wildflowers to me. 

817
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,720
Now, this is written by Dolly, 
so it's not a Linda song, but 

818
00:49:22,720 --> 00:49:26,000
the three of them sing together 
on that track so wonderfully. 

819
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,400
And that is, that's a queer 
anthem to me. 

820
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,720
They weren't singing it for 
queer people, but it's a song 

821
00:49:30,720 --> 00:49:35,200
about, I guess, Dolly breaking 
out herself and realising that 

822
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,240
where she's from, she might love
the place, but she's not like 

823
00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:43,560
the other people and she needs 
to go away and thrive elsewhere 

824
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,680
where they accept people who are
more strange and weird like her.

825
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:52,200
And to imagine Dolly feeling 
weird is just fascinating and so

826
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:54,920
special for queer fans to lock 
into. 

827
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,720
So to hear Dolly and Linda and 
Emmylou sing on that song, I had

828
00:49:58,720 --> 00:50:13,560
to get that in there. 
I'm so happy you because you 

829
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,840
know the records I'm talking 
about that kind of formed my 

830
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:21,480
bond with Linda were earth much 
earlier, so much so I was 

831
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:23,000
thinking about those prisoner in
disguise. 

832
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:34,680
Simple man, simple dream I did. 
I did not even think about Trio,

833
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,800
but I wore that record out. 
Boy, did I love that record. 

834
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:41,240
And that was one of those things
that Linda did throughout her 

835
00:50:41,240 --> 00:50:43,520
career. 
Like you're doing this now and 

836
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,960
you're doing this with those 
two, and it's such an improbable

837
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:50,000
little group of people, and yet 
you sound so. 

838
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,040
It's just all about the music 
for her. 

839
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:54,320
I'm going to be listening to 
Trio tonight. 

840
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:56,600
Please me too. 
And Wild Flowers would be much. 

841
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,400
There's another great song in 
that first record called Lies, 

842
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:01,840
which is little like your 
harmonies on that. 

843
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:19,120
What would you list out as your 
top three Linda Ronstadt songs 

844
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,760
for someone who's listening? 
Who wants to go away and begin 

845
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:25,200
their Linda journey? 
I'm going to say a Warren Zevon 

846
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,800
song off of Simple Man, Simple 
Dream, which is my favourite 

847
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:33,680
Linda Ronstadt record and it's 
called Carmelita. 

848
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:47,760
So Carmelita from that, there's 
a song from, I think it's on 

849
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,040
Prisoner in Disguise and Lose 
Again is one of my favourite 

850
00:51:51,040 --> 00:52:05,320
Linda Ronstadt songs. 
And then, you know, I'm going to

851
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,080
have to just go with Blue Bayou.
So, I mean, I know it's a big, 

852
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:14,360
but it's just such a haunting, 
gorgeous piece of music. 

853
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:28,640
It's a Roy Orbison song and the 
fact that she could and make it 

854
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:31,600
hers in the deepest, warmest 
way. 

855
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:33,280
I'm going to have four. 
You're going to have to give me 

856
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,440
one. 
So we've got Lose Again and Blue

857
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:40,760
by you and then you everyone 
should go on YouTube and and 

858
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:44,520
Google her and Kermit the Frog 
on the Muppet Show in a duet 

859
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:48,200
When I Grow too Old to Dream, 
which is a song I'm one of her 

860
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,520
records. 
Watch the way Linda looks at 

861
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:55,040
Kermit and sings to Kermit. 
And if you're not crying by the 

862
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,720
end of it, it's called When I 
Grow Too Old to Dream. 

863
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,720
And you can hear her recording 
of it, which is masterful of 

864
00:53:00,720 --> 00:53:02,720
course. 
But go to the Muppet Show 

865
00:53:02,720 --> 00:53:06,560
YouTube and watch that and you 
will find my address and you 

866
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:28,720
will send me flowers. 
You will be so happy that you 

867
00:53:28,720 --> 00:53:31,400
saw this. 
That might be my favourite Linda

868
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,480
Fate moment ever. 
Is her duet with. 

869
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:37,240
I love that so much. 
John Benjamin Hickey, you've 

870
00:53:37,240 --> 00:53:40,040
already referenced your own 
radio show, My Favourite Song. 

871
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:43,480
Now it's not totally uncommon 
for me on this podcast to ask 

872
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:46,800
people a bit of a quick fire. 
I'm taking ownership here and 

873
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,520
I'm turning the My favourite 
song tables on you. 

874
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:51,640
Your. 
Favourite love song? 

875
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:57,240
Why Don't I Say just came to my 
mind, the duet between Diana 

876
00:53:57,240 --> 00:53:59,240
Ross and Lionel Richie and 
listeners love. 

877
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,720
Andy and I watch it and they're,
they sing it at the Oscars 

878
00:54:13,720 --> 00:54:15,720
together. 
And when Andy and I, we go to 

879
00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:19,360
Fire Island for a couple of days
of the summer and we usually get

880
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:21,480
a little, you know, we party a 
little bit and we end up just 

881
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,600
watching YouTube videos and 
things that we love and we 

882
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,720
always watch Lionel and Diana. 
So for right now, just off the 

883
00:54:27,720 --> 00:54:29,720
top of my head, endless. 
Love, I love it. 

884
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:31,680
Your favourite sad song? 
My. 

885
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:35,440
Favourite sad song? 
An Elton John song just came to 

886
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:37,160
my mind. 
I guess that's why they call it 

887
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:40,440
the Blues. 
I love that song so much. 

888
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:42,560
Absolutely adore that song, Oh 
my God. 

889
00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:45,760
Because it's when you're sad, it
holds you. 

890
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:47,840
I'd really love, if you don't 
already know it, there's a 

891
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:51,160
version he does of that live at 
Madison Square Garden about 25 

892
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:55,120
years ago with Mary J Blige. 
He duets on that with Mary J 

893
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:56,240
Blige. 
It's amazing. 

894
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:10,040
You know, I'm going to be Matt 
you after this because I'm going

895
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:12,160
to hang up and I'm going to be 
like, no, that's my favourite 

896
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:14,160
song. 
But these are just these free 

897
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:16,040
association, correct? 
Free Association. 

898
00:55:16,240 --> 00:55:18,920
And I've just got one more and 
it's a question that I heard you

899
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:21,520
ask Sarah Paulson. 
And I love this question. 

900
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,480
Your favourite song that you've 
ever seen performed live? 

901
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,240
Oh my God. 
OK, well, I mean, you could take

902
00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:29,720
anything off of the Born to Run 
album. 

903
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:32,040
That Bruce Springsteen, you 
know, Bruce Springsteen is just 

904
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:35,000
the greatest live performer I've
ever seen. 

905
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:38,640
So I'm going to say Thunder Rd 
by Bruce Springsteen. 

906
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:42,280
I saw him in the 80s Tina Turner
opened for him. 

907
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,800
And so that that is probably the
greatest live song I I've ever 

908
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,280
heard seen, but one of the 
greatest live performances I 

909
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:01,160
believe I've ever seen. 
And this is what came to mind is

910
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:04,920
several years ago, Stevie Wonder
did a tour and he did songs in 

911
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:09,280
the key of Life cover to cover. 
He just did the whole album and 

912
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:11,600
it was like you were in his 
backyard with him. 

913
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:16,320
It was so funky and free and 
trading musicians back and 

914
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:18,920
forth. 
Tim changing instruments in the 

915
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:21,520
middle of the song, waving to 
somebody, somebody coming to get

916
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:23,800
him to go play something else. 
It was like a jam. 

917
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:26,320
So that's my favourite live 
performance. 

918
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,680
My favourite song I've heard 
this song live is Thunder Rd. 

919
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:33,680
Good work squeezing that in. 
This has been an absolute joy, 

920
00:56:33,720 --> 00:56:35,560
like a sincere pleasure to 
speak. 

921
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:39,640
To speak to someone who has 
lived a life full of this 

922
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:42,200
passion for music has been 
fantastic. 

923
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:43,240
So thank you very much for your 
time. 

924
00:56:43,240 --> 00:56:46,280
I got to tell you, I'm going to 
have Esprit de Scalier after 

925
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,080
this of like, oh, I should have 
said this, I should have said 

926
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:51,360
that, but I'm also probably 
going to be slightly embarrassed

927
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,520
by just how passionate you've 
made me. 

928
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:57,240
This is such a great idea for a 
show Andy and such a great 

929
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:02,240
interviewers so I now leave it 
in your surgical hands to cut 

930
00:57:02,240 --> 00:57:05,320
this thing other where it makes 
some sense for your listeners. 

931
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:07,800
I can't wait. 
John Benjamin Hickey, you are 

932
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:09,920
queer and thank you very much 
for your tracks. 

933
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:23,320
Thank you so much. 
You can follow John online at at

934
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:26,480
J Ben Hickey. 
I'll be back in a month or two 

935
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:29,320
with more episodes. 
In the meantime, please check 

936
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,400
out my Spotify playlist, 
including my favourite songs 

937
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:36,120
from different episodes. 
LinkedIn this episode show 

938
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:38,280
notes. 
You can e-mail me Gay rumblings 

939
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:40,920
at any time at 
trucksofourqueers@gmail.com. 

940
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:42,360
See you next time.