1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,040 Hello and welcome to Tracks of Our Queers. 2 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,560 My name is Andy Gott and each episode I chat to a fascinating 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,200 queer person about their relationship with music via one 4 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:22,280 song, one album and one artist that have each soundtrack their 5 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,480 life. Peter Tatchell is somewhat 6 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:30,160 peerless in his contributions to queer activism, not just in the 7 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,360 UK where he's lived since the early 70s, but globally. 8 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,240 I grew up often seeing Peter on television, may it be a late 9 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,200 night Channel 4 talk show, interviewed by a news reader or 10 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:45,240 indeed part of the news himself. As a key player in Outrage, the 11 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,280 gay and lesbian political group, I recognised him as a visible 12 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:53,480 gay man protesting for gay rights before I could even 13 00:00:53,480 --> 00:00:57,360 recognise my own identity. However, it wasn't until I 14 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,080 watched the documentary of his life's work, Hating Peter 15 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,640 Tatchell, that I could fully comprehend what his impact on 16 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,160 queer lives in the UK and beyond have been. 17 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:11,160 Born in Melbourne in 1952, Peter was politicised by the American 18 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,480 Black Civil Rights Movement, the Indigenous Civil Rights movement 19 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:18,760 in Australia and the atrocities of the Vietnam War before moving 20 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,680 to London where he was fundamental to the organisation 21 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:26,840 of EU KS very first Pride March London Pride in 1972. 22 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,720 Peter has been to every single London Pride since. 23 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,800 Across 6 decades of activism, Peter has been arrested over 100 24 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,440 times and has been subject to more than 300 violent assaults, 25 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,920 including fifty attacks on his flat. 26 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,040 He was once interrogated by the Stasi in East Berlin. 27 00:01:46,320 --> 00:01:50,560 He's received police protection multiple times and was listed as 28 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,360 a target for assassination in a foiled plot. 29 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,800 I will speak for myself here and not you, dear listener. 30 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,360 I simply do not believe that I am brave enough to have lived a 31 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,520 life on the front lines like Peter has, but I do believe that 32 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,520 we owe him and of course many other brave activists around the 33 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,920 world an incalculable amount. All of that to say, it's a 34 00:02:11,920 --> 00:02:14,280 tremendous honour to have him on this show and to learn about 35 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,960 some of the music that has soundtracked his outrageous 36 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,760 journey. Tracks of Our Queers is firmly 37 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,840 and proudly A1 Queer Band. So if you enjoy this episode, 38 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,480 you can buy me a coffee. LinkedIn the episode show notes, 39 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,800 your support covers the costs associated with the show and it 40 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,200 helps me rely a little bit less on my day job. 41 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:32,920 So thank you very much in advance. 42 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:42,360 All right, over to Peter. Peter Tatchell, welcome to 43 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,120 Tracks of Our Queers. Very happy to join you. 44 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,440 Tell me about your earliest musical memory. 45 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:54,640 My earliest musical memory probably goes back to the early 46 00:02:54,640 --> 00:03:00,360 1960s. In 1963, I was 11 years old in 47 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,800 Melbourne, Australia, and I heard about the bombing of a 48 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:09,560 black church in Birmingham, AL, where four young girls about my 49 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,560 own age were murdered by white racists. 50 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,800 That profoundly shocked me. I was only 11. 51 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:21,080 I wasn't political, but I just had a gut reaction that was so 52 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,840 wrong. That prompted my interest in the 53 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,440 black civil rights movement led by Doctor Martin Luther King, 54 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:35,680 and one of its anthems was We Shall Overcome, Sung very 55 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:52,880 notably by Mahalia Jackson. That's one of the earliest songs 56 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:58,440 that really sticks in my mind, and its values, its ideals, 57 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,760 stand with me today. And was that just something that 58 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,160 you would have heard on the radio, or would there have been 59 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,240 a record of that song in your house playing? 60 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,240 Definitely not a record in our house. 61 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,960 And my parents were small C conservatives. 62 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,760 They were religious, but not that kind of religion. 63 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,000 I mean, they were sort of evangelical Pentecostalists, 64 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:21,279 totally disengaged from politics. 65 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:28,240 But I remember hearing it in news reports of the service for 66 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,400 the young girls after they were killed. 67 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,240 And so then what did that spark within you other than a lifelong 68 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,560 career of activism? But what were those immediate 69 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,080 first steps? How were you then seeking to 70 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,840 find out more information about what had just happened? 71 00:04:42,840 --> 00:04:47,000 How could you possibly educate yourself as an 11 year old in 72 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,400 Melbourne about the Civil rights movement happening on the other 73 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,680 side of the planet? Well, for a start, that struggle 74 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:58,680 for black freedom was pretty much nightly on the news, on 75 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:03,280 radio and TV. It was also widely reported in 76 00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:05,680 Melbourne newspapers like the Herald and The Sun. 77 00:05:05,840 --> 00:05:09,320 So yeah, that's how I discovered more. 78 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,760 You know, I scoured through newspapers and went to libraries 79 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,440 and educated myself. And of course, this was long 80 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:22,720 before I realised that I was gay, long before I got involved 81 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:29,040 in LGBT plus activism, when I was aware of my own sexuality. 82 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:37,280 In 1969, when I was 17, I didn't have any LGBT plus role models. 83 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,080 And certainly in Melbourne there were no campaign groups, there 84 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,760 weren't even any LGBT plus help lines or counselling services. 85 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,200 There was nothing. So I looked to the black civil 86 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:56,520 rights movement in America as my inspiration for how to do LGBT 87 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,360 plus activism. I remember thinking to myself in 88 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:08,160 1969 at the age of 17 that if black people in America are an 89 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:13,680 oppressed minority, then so to LGBT plus people not not only in 90 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:15,560 America but in Australia and everywhere. 91 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:21,200 I conceived this idea of us being an oppressed minority and, 92 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:25,680 like black Americans, having a claim for equal rights and 93 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:30,880 social justice. I remember thinking in my mind, 94 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:36,480 how long would it take to win LGBT freedom in Western 95 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,000 countries like Australia and the US? 96 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,640 And so I trawl back through the history of the black civil 97 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,800 rights movement, and it was roughly, of course, there'd been 98 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,600 movements going on for decades and centuries since the era of 99 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,360 slavery. The modern movement for black 100 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:59,320 civil rights, America took about 50 years to win racial equality 101 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,600 and desegregation. So on that basis, I calco 102 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:08,040 probably it would take about 50 years to win LGBT plus freedom 103 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,680 as well. And I turned out, purely by 104 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:14,920 speculative guesstimate, to be about right. 105 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,480 There you go, there you go. I should be transparent and 106 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,160 upfront that just two days ago I watched the incredible 107 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,040 documentary about your life's work, Hating Peter Tatra, which 108 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,480 in Australia is on SBS On Demand and I believe in the UK is on 109 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:30,400 Netflix. You hinted at something in that 110 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,240 documentary before you did move to London, I believe 19 111 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,640 thereabouts. What was your exposure to the 112 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,040 Aboriginal civil rights movement in Australia? 113 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,680 So what was visible to you, what was available in the news with 114 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:45,480 what Aboriginal people were experiencing? 115 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:51,200 But of course, having had that exposure and interest and 116 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,720 support for the black civil rights movement in America that 117 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,920 turned my mind to the treatment of Indigenous black Australians, 118 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,480 I thought to myself, we have a similar race problem here in 119 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,120 Australia. In those days, in terms of 120 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,600 mainstream media, black Australians were almost 121 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,480 invisible. Their concerns, their struggle, 122 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,080 their quest for justice was pretty much marginalised. 123 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:27,640 I can remember in 1967 I read a report that a lot of young 124 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,160 Aboriginal kids were leaving school at the minimum age 125 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,520 because their parents need them to go out to work. 126 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,440 And of course that meant they had no qualifications, they 127 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:44,360 didn't develop any skills. So I thought about the idea, why 128 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:51,120 don't we fundraise to provide those young Aboriginal teenagers 129 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:56,760 with scholarships to stay on at school rather than go out and 130 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:58,720 get job? Because if they stay not at 131 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,760 school, they ever get qualifications, they go on to 132 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,240 learn trades, become professionals and that would 133 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,320 uplift them, their families and their whole communities. 134 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,600 And I did a bit of research and found that at Melbourne 135 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:16,440 University there was an organisation called ABSCOLL, had 136 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:20,800 already been set up and was a special fund called the 137 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,200 Aboriginal Scholarship Educational Incentive Fund. 138 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:29,320 And so with three other members of my high school, we went to 139 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,800 Melbourne University, met with Melbourne University students 140 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,640 and then went back and organised all the schools in the South and 141 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:42,360 east region of Melbourne to do a long walk along the beaches to 142 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:46,600 raise money for this scheme. I can't remember the total 143 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,040 figure, but for our school I think we raised about $430, 144 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,200 which was quite a lot of money back in 1967. 145 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,520 And that scheme is still going today as far as I know. 146 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,840 So a little bit later I got involved in the student 147 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,600 Christian movement, which was very active in championing 148 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,920 Indigenous like Australian rights and we did a number of 149 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,480 protests against sporting tours by South Africa's apartheid 150 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:15,080 team. Incredible. 151 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:19,920 Tell me about your first interaction with another gay 152 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,040 person that you knew them to be gay. 153 00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:28,520 My big passion was art and design, but my parents couldn't 154 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:32,480 afford to keep me out of school. I wanted me to go out to work to 155 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:38,040 help support the family income, so I left school at 16 and I 156 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:42,040 went to work for Waltons Department Store in Bourke St, 157 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,160 Melbourne, in the design and display department. 158 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,040 I thought this is the closest I'm going to get to actually 159 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,000 doing art and design. I'll learn on the job and that's 160 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:57,400 what I did, helping design and make windows, interiors, logos, 161 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,360 signs, the whole gamut of art and design for that store. 162 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,720 It was there that I first met other gay people, although at 163 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,600 the time I didn't realise I was gay. 164 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,080 I had a very sheltered, extremely conservative, 165 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:18,000 repressive evangelical Christian upbringing, so the idea of 166 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,760 homosexuality was just totally out of my realm of 167 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:26,320 consciousness. I remember these these other 168 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,160 guys in the display and design department were, you know, 169 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:34,320 fairly open about being gay. It struck me that they were nice 170 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,800 people. They were talented, they were 171 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:38,800 friendly. You know, they were, they were 172 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:43,320 great work colleagues. So it disabused me of my 173 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:48,000 prejudices, my Christian prejudices against what we then 174 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:53,240 call just gay people. Over time, one of the work 175 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:58,280 colleagues who was gay and I say fairly openly gay, invited me 176 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,280 home for dinner. And I sort of knew what that 177 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,320 meant. I wasn't entirely stupid. 178 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:06,000 Of course. I said no, no, no. 179 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:13,920 But then after about 3 or 4 months, I began to wonder, you 180 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,040 know, was I gay? I'd never had any sexual 181 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,160 experiences with women. I dated girls, but being a 182 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,520 strict Christian, nothing more than a chaste kiss on the lips. 183 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,560 So one night as he was leaving to go home, he turned up to me 184 00:12:27,560 --> 00:12:29,160 and said, would you like to come home for dinner? 185 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:35,280 I said yes please, I thought in my mind I will see where this 186 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,880 goes and I can always say no at the last minute. 187 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:43,280 I remember we walked to the tram stop on Collins Street to go 188 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:48,000 back to his little bedsit on the Esplanade at Middle Park and who 189 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:49,800 should be waiting at the bus stop on my father. 190 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:57,120 So I I introduced Robert to my mother and said he'd invited me 191 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,720 to go home to his place to have dinner and I thought that rather 192 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,080 than going all the way back to Mount Waverley, I would just 193 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,880 stay over at his place and then go to work next morning. 194 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,920 She said, oh fine. So we got back to his little 195 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:15,160 bed, sit overlooking the beach, we had a lovely dinner and then 196 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:19,160 he asked if I would like to go to bed and I paused and said 197 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,560 yes, we had sex. And I remember, I think to 198 00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:28,240 myself, wow, this was absolutely like superb, magnificent, 199 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,200 wonderful. If this is what being gay is, 200 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,200 then I'm definitely gay. And we end up having a wonderful 201 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,960 relationship for several years, and we're still lifelong best 202 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,600 friends. I love that that is so special. 203 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,400 You may not have an answer to this question, but is there? 204 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,720 Is there a particular song or something musical which reminds 205 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:50,920 you of that precise time of your life? 206 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,120 That's a tough one. I'm sure they're probably Dusty 207 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:55,320 Springfield or something like that. 208 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,320 I'd love to hear you explain what actually prompted you to 209 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,600 move as someone in your very early 1920. 210 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:16,800 What pushed you to move to London? 211 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,520 I've been very much involved in the Vietnam moratorium campaign 212 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:25,240 against Australia's involvement in the Vietnam War and against 213 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:30,520 the draft for that war. To me it was an unjust, immoral 214 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,400 war and we were seeking to dictate to the people of 215 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:38,200 Vietnam. Who should rule them and how 216 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,200 they should live their lives. This is old fashioned 217 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,200 imperialist interventionism. I was very strongly opposed to 218 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,040 the war. By this stage. 219 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,120 There were multiple reports of atrocities being committed by 220 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,920 allied troops, the indiscriminate bombing of 221 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:57,120 civilian areas, the massacre of villages. 222 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,000 So I wasn't prepared to even register for the draft. 223 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,280 I didn't want to in any way collude with the draft. 224 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,720 Of course, the penalty for refusing to register was two 225 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,120 years in prison. Before I met Robert. 226 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:17,400 I was prepared to go to prison, but having just fallen in love 227 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,720 and begun this amazing relationship, the idea of being 228 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,440 torn apart from him and spending two years in prison was just too 229 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,840 much. I'd always want to travel 230 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:31,600 anyway, plan to come to Britain and Europe like many 231 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,600 Australians. And so we we both came to 232 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:42,480 Britain by boat, by Pacific Anamar Canal in the Atlantic 233 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:48,800 took all of nearly seven weeks, but the cost of that sea journey 234 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:54,120 was pretty much the same as an air flight, 420 Australian 235 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,360 dollars. You got the travelled stops in 236 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:02,280 Fiji and Tonya, Anamar Canal, the Caribbean, all your food, 237 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,480 all your entertainment. It was a no brainer. 238 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,200 And So what happened two days after you arrived in London? 239 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,280 Something happened two days after you'd arrived there. 240 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,880 Actually, on the second day we were walking around central 241 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:18,560 London by Oxford Street and I saw a sticker on a lamppost 242 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:23,600 advertising the weekly meetings of the not long formed the 243 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,960 Liberation Front. So I thought, wow, I want to be 244 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,640 part of this. Back in Australia, there being 245 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:34,960 no LGBT organisations, all I could do was write letters to 246 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,560 the press, to newspapers like The Herald, The Sun, The Age and 247 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:40,480 I've got to tell you, I was very scared. 248 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:45,200 I never signed any of the letters or gave my address 249 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,360 because I feared they might be handed over the police. 250 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,240 In those days you could potentially be sent to prison 251 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,240 and even pressured to undergo psychiatric treatment. 252 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,440 Over time I began to sign my name and eventually gave my 253 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,160 address as well. The newspapers never got back to 254 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:03,560 me. As far as I heard, the letters 255 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,720 were never published. They've been simply making the 256 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:11,920 case for the decriminalisation of homosexuality and criticising 257 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,599 police in action over queer bashing violence. 258 00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:17,440 What was emboldening you? What was making you, each time 259 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,760 you wrote that letter, be more forthcoming with here's my name, 260 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,319 here's my address kind of pushing forward. 261 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,760 Well, I thought being gay, you have to stand up for yourself. 262 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:31,840 I was conscious it could have dangerous consequences, but I 263 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:36,680 had to show the newspaper that I wasn't afraid that there were 264 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,680 gay people. I prepared to take a stand and 265 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:45,360 I'd sort of hoped that perhaps they might contact me and do an 266 00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:47,680 interview, perhaps an anonymous interview, but an interview 267 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,240 nonetheless, where I could talk about not what was going on. 268 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:55,320 Living in Middle Park on the beachfront, I heard reports of 269 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,560 police either in uniform or plain clothes going along the 270 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:04,880 beat and beating up gay men and, you know, very savage, severe 271 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,320 beatings. And it was never reported. 272 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,640 There was clearly an abuse of police power. 273 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,560 I want to talk about such things and I wish I could have had that 274 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:16,920 opportunity. So you see this sticker in 275 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,600 London for the Gay Liberation Front and you are prompted to 276 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,960 attend. Is it a meeting that you attend? 277 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,880 Yeah, they held the Gay Liberation Front open weekly 278 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,880 meetings in a church hall in West London. 279 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:33,280 The attendance was between 2 and 300 people, very often very 280 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,920 chaotic, very noisy but incredibly passionate and 281 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:42,640 committed and just amazing to see every Week 2 or 300 LGBT 282 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,760 plus people who were prepared to stand up and demand change. 283 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:48,680 Who was keeping the agenda notes? 284 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,360 I'm a bit stressed out thinking about who's tracking all the 285 00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:53,600 actions from this meeting with 300 people. 286 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:58,320 Yeah, there was a elected steering committee and well 287 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,760 elected chair to chair the meetings. 288 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,960 I'm meeting the 300 people mostly standing in a huge crowd. 289 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,600 It was quite tough to keep control of. 290 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,280 Things did get a bit disorganised and out of order at 291 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,480 times, but overall we managed to get an agenda, go through it, 292 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,920 make a plan of action, organise protests and so on. 293 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,640 Clearly, clearly, you were capable enough to be part of 294 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,400 organising the first ever London Pride. 295 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,480 Well, in fact, the first pride in the UK took place on the 1st 296 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:35,360 of July 1972. It came about because the 297 00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:39,320 prevailing public view of straight society was that we 298 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:44,000 should be ashamed of being gay, lesbian, bisexual or trans. 299 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:46,600 We thought, what's the opposite of shame? 300 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,160 It's pride. You know, we're proud of who we 301 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:50,560 are. We're not ashamed. 302 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,240 So that's how the idea of gay pride came about. 303 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,680 It was a huge gamble. Back in those days, most 304 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,120 eligibility, most people in Britain, everywhere were 305 00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:05,240 closeted. They feared coming out because 306 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,120 of the possibility of being arrested, rejected by their 307 00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:12,920 families. Beaten up by neighbours, losing 308 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,720 their jobs. That was the reality of LGBT 309 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,000 plus life in that era. So it was a big gamble. 310 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:25,040 But in the end 700 people turned out and we were, we were, we 311 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:26,960 were overjoyed. You know, we thought this was 312 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,240 success. It was very heavily policed. 313 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,040 There was almost a police officer for every single person 314 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:39,840 in the March and some officers openly abused us as poofs, 315 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:44,240 queers, benders, dykes, lesis and so on. 316 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,280 There was nothing you could do because in those days there was 317 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,080 no Police Complaints procedure, no police watchdog. 318 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,680 The police were officially homophobic, they endorsed 319 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,680 homophobia, they executed homophobia, they were the 320 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,640 enforcers. The one incident that happened 321 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:06,080 on that March that really stood out was in Oxford St by 322 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:10,200 Selfridges department store. I was carrying a small sign 323 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:15,000 saying gay is good. Very elderly woman probably in 324 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,960 her 80s but with beautifully coffee, hair and twin set and 325 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:24,160 pearls, heavily laden down with bags of shopping, stepped to the 326 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,320 edge of the pavement and said to me what is gay? 327 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:33,520 To which I replied, homosexual and her response was ha good on 328 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,800 you, good luck. That gave me confidence that we 329 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,560 had allies and we could change things. 330 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,680 And of course on that March I would say that about 1/3 of the 331 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,240 people on the March were hostile. 332 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,240 They booed and jeered and gave us the thumbs down. 333 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,560 Some even threw coins or cans or things like this. 334 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,920 Not cans but bottles. And about 1/3 were just gulping 335 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:02,080 in disbelief gay people would dare show their faces in public. 336 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,280 But another third were supportive. 337 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,440 They cheered and clapped and gave us a thumbs up. 338 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:12,880 So from that experience, we're emboldened the next year to 339 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,880 repeat the process. And every year afterwards, gay 340 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,920 pride grew and grew in numbers. And I believe you've not missed 341 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,080 one since right in London. Is that correct? 342 00:22:22,360 --> 00:22:27,240 That's right, I've been on every single Pride in London since 343 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,080 1972. I rearrange my calendar to make 344 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:34,400 sure I'm there. I think about that crowd, 1/3 on 345 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,640 the more abusive end of the spectrum, a third in disbelief 346 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,400 and a third cheering you on, or at least encouraging or 347 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,960 whatever. And I think that sums up how 348 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,960 many people view your activism in a way, Peter, in that many of 349 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:54,840 us mere mortals might have sought shelter at that third of 350 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,840 the crowd who were shouting abuse, who were mocking us, 351 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,400 jiving us, insulting us. And you know, some of us would 352 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:07,600 have buckled and ran away, but instead of absorbing that 353 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,840 negatively, you were emboldened by the third who were positive. 354 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,200 You chose to focus on the third who were there encouraging you 355 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:15,560 on. And that's what prompted you to 356 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,680 come back the following year. Well, even emboldened by the 357 00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:23,440 those who are hostile, you know that that kicked in my sense of 358 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,200 stubborn defiance. And indeed everybody, I think, 359 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,080 felt much the same. We didn't care that they hated 360 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:31,800 us. Well, we did care, but we 361 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,200 weren't going to be deterred by the fact they hated us. 362 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,240 That emboldened us to make it all the more important that we 363 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:42,320 did it again, and we stepped up our campaign for queer 364 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,200 liberation. We are going to get to your 365 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,280 musical selections very shortly, I promise. 366 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,000 But I, like I've already said, I watched the documentary about 367 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,000 your life's work, hating Peter Tatchell the other night with my 368 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,000 partner and he's actually Australian and he had never 369 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,120 heard of you, but he came away from watching it with me just 370 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,800 wowed and overwhelmed by what you've achieved with your life. 371 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:05,280 And I was quite moved myself because I feel like I've always 372 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,840 kind of known who you were. You were always in the 373 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,560 newspapers and TV when I was growing up in the UK, before I 374 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:16,320 even knew that I was gay myself. I absorbed you as a kind of 375 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:21,760 articulate, challenging, defiant but notably gay man. 376 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,280 This was Peter Tatchell on TVA, gay man speaking about gay 377 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,760 things, gay politics. It led me to reflect after I 378 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,560 watched the documentary, on how I was perhaps absorbing 379 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,560 homosexual representation in the news, so specifically the news 380 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:41,520 rather than pop culture, and how I then went off to uni at 18 in 381 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,320 the late 2000s and moved through my early 20s with this, looking 382 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:49,280 back now, quite a naive sense of what a great time it was to be 383 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,440 gay. And it was, and it is now. 384 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,960 And I do believe that things continue to get better, which is 385 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,960 great. But it was not clear to me then 386 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:03,000 just how different life was a mere 152025 years earlier if I'd 387 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,080 been born just that tiny bit earlier. 388 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,040 And while I don't think that I directly face the consequences 389 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,840 of Section 28, my education would have certainly been 390 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:13,960 impacted by it. So I'm sitting there watching 391 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,760 this documentary and I found it incredibly moving that for 392 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,400 decades you have been there at the heart of queer liberation 393 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,480 and activism in the UK and around the world. 394 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,200 And it's a privilege that I actually get to sit here and 395 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,320 talk to you. Now I'll be about music, which 396 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,720 we'll get to. But yeah, I just, I guess I just 397 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,560 wanted to sincerely thank you because you have influenced my 398 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,760 standard of living as a queer person in the UK along with many 399 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,000 other queer people. Thank you very much. 400 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,960 Of course it's never been just me, it's always been me speaking 401 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,400 for a movement and it's our collective strength that really 402 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,600 brings about the change. I've often been the spokesperson 403 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,360 but without the wider movement we would be nowhere, so it's 404 00:25:56,360 --> 00:25:57,480 always a collective. Effort. 405 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,200 One last thing on pride. Have you ever made it to a 406 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,320 Sydney Mardi Gras? I have indeed on three occasions 407 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,880 going back to the 80s. I think the first one was in 408 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:14,480 1987 with my then partner Jason. We had a Absolutely Fabulous 409 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,320 time and then in the 1990s and the early 2000s. 410 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:19,840 Good. I love it. 411 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,960 People talk a lot today about self-care. 412 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,320 It goes without saying that you've endured decades of 413 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,920 hostility, abuse, even violence. I'd love to know what kind of 414 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,760 self-care you perhaps practise today. 415 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:35,400 But what? What have you been practising 416 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,320 for years to kind of steel yourself against the more 417 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,880 negative, toxic parts of your work that you've faced? 418 00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:46,520 How do you protect yourself? Well, just for people who don't 419 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:52,920 know, over the last 58 years of my activist campaigning I've 420 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,920 been physically violently assaulted over 300 times. 421 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,920 There's been attempts to throw me off high speed trains, I've 422 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,800 been attacked at railway stations, bus stations, shopping 423 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,720 centres, outside my home, you name it. 424 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,520 There's been a fist and a boot almost in every scenario. 425 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:17,440 And there's also been more than 50 attacks upon my home, mostly 426 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,320 bricks and bottles through the window and but also three arson 427 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,960 attempts and even a bullet through my front door. 428 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:29,840 But I'm still here. I have suffered for many years 429 00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:35,680 from not post traumatic stress disorder, but ongoing traumatic 430 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,640 stress disorder because these attacks have kept on happening. 431 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,880 That has been, you know, that's been pretty tough. 432 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:46,320 I mean, I will wake up with a night terror reliving an attack 433 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,200 and I'll literally jump about 6 inches off the bed and be bolt 434 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,160 upright with my heart pounding as though it's going to burst 435 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,320 out of my chest. It's a horrific experience. 436 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,040 But you know, eventually it calms down and, you know, two or 437 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:04,760 three hours later I'm able to get back to sleep. 438 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,760 That's the kind of thing I've lived with ever since I stood 439 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,640 for election in the notorious Bermondsey. 440 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,920 By election in southeast London in 1983. 441 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,800 I was the left wing gay supporting candidate. 442 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:23,040 Most commentators say it was the dirtiest, most violent and 443 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,520 certainly most homophobic election in Britain in the 20th 444 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,160 century. That was my baptism of hell. 445 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,040 But it continued many years afterwards, and there, 446 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,840 particularly during the outrage period in the 1990's, the 447 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:40,080 outrage, the LGBT Plus direct Action Group for queer rights, I 448 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,520 was the lead spokesperson and that prompted a huge welter of 449 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,320 hate mail, death threats and actual physical violence. 450 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:52,560 So yeah, how do I cope with it? With difficulty. 451 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,400 You know, it's been a struggle. My strategy has been to 452 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:03,000 acknowledge what's been done to me, to think through the attack 453 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:09,680 and the violence and then sort of banish it out of my mind so 454 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,480 successfully that sometimes I even forget about some of the 455 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,320 incidents until I'm reminded by friends, the psychiatrists and 456 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,040 psychologists who have treated me. 457 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,800 I've said this is not an orthodox way of dealing with 458 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,480 this, but they said it seems to work for you. 459 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,720 I think if I dwelt on it, they said I'd probably have a nervous 460 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,800 breakdown or end up attempting suicide because the weight of 461 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,600 extreme hate and violence has been so intense for so long. 462 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,880 Having said that, I'm not very good at self-care. 463 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,240 I have one of these violent assaults and I banish it from my 464 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,040 mind and I'm off to the next campaign and then the next 465 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,880 violent attack. You know, the closest I come to 466 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:58,480 it, I guess, is every week I try on a Friday or Saturday night to 467 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:03,480 set aside an hour or two or three to listen to some music. 468 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,080 I'm a big fan of electronic dance music. 469 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,720 That sends me into a trance like state where just I banish all 470 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,920 the worries, all the concerns, all the fears, everything gets 471 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,600 banished. I just concentrate and lose 472 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:22,160 myself in the music. So by George Morodo and so on. 473 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,880 That kind of music really helps me chill out and, you know, 474 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,240 banish all those anxieties and troubles. 475 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,800 That's a joy to know. I mean, it's not certainly not a 476 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,160 joy to hear what you've been through in your life, what you 477 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,280 have endured, what you continue to endure. 478 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,800 But it's wonderful to hear that music is there as a source of 479 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,520 strength for you, as a source of resilience and self-care. 480 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,120 And I think there's no better Segway than to go into your 481 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,360 selections because I've, I've got a few questions about these 482 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,280 selections. You've picked some fantastic 483 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,280 ones. You've chosen 3 musical 484 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,120 selections, a track, an album and an artist, which have in 485 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:14,160 some way way soundtrack informed your life as a queer person and 486 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,680 I'd love to know what the track is and why you picked it. 487 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:21,640 The track I chose is McFadden and Whiteheads Ain't No Stopping 488 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,480 Us Now, which was released in 1979. 489 00:31:34,670 --> 00:31:37,390 It's an incredibly joyful, uplifting track. 490 00:31:37,790 --> 00:31:40,950 It is an anthem for oppressed people everywhere. 491 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,920 If I can just quote some of the lyrics which give you a favour, 492 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,760 it goes. Ain't no stopping us now. 493 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,640 We're on the move. We won't let nothing hold us 494 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,480 back. If you've ever been held down 495 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,440 before, I know you'll refuse to be held down anymore. 496 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,000 Don't let nothing stand in your way. 497 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:06,200 Ain't no stopping us now. That to me is like an anthem for 498 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,160 every struggle for freedom, Woman's liberation, black 499 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:13,000 liberation, working class liberation, LGBT plus 500 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,160 liberation. I remember 1 particular occasion 501 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:22,600 at the Notting Hill Carnival in London every summer in 1979. 502 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,440 One of the sound systems under the West Way fly Over was 503 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,600 playing this track several times over and there was a crowd of 504 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,960 thousands there all dancing to this track, cheering and 505 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,680 clenched fists in the air. It was an amazing, amazing 506 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,840 experience. But for me it it speaks to our 507 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:48,760 struggle as LGBT plus people that we decided we ain't going 508 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,240 to be held down no more. We ain't going to be stopped 509 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,480 anymore. We aren't going to stand back. 510 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,040 We're going to fight for our rights. 511 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,680 So this song for you hasn't become an anthem over the years. 512 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,880 It was an anthem from when you first heard it. 513 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:11,760 Would that be accurate? Yeah, absolutely. 514 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:13,160 Yeah. And what was specifically 515 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,280 happening in 1979 for you? Where were you on your activism 516 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:17,800 journey? You were already firmly in 517 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,640 London, right? Yeah, the Gay Liberation Fund 518 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,440 had folded by then and I redirected much of my 519 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:29,240 campaigning into the Labour Party to try and secure the 520 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,320 Labour Party support for LGBT plus rights and win trade union 521 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,360 support as well to defend the rights of LGBT plus employees 522 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,680 who are facing harassment and discrimination in the workplace. 523 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,520 By this time I'd moved to the southeast London constituency of 524 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,040 Bermondsey, where I became the local party organiser. 525 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:54,640 We were basically rebuilding A decayed shell of a party. 526 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:59,000 It had been once a very big, effective local party, but over 527 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,440 the years it had fallen to rack and ruin. 528 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,400 We did no campaigning, the membership had dropped to very 529 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,360 low numbers, it was out of touch with the local community. 530 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,600 So at this stage I was striving to rebuild that party, to 531 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,920 increase the membership, to reconnect with local community 532 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,360 organisations and in particular to champion the fight against 533 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,159 property developers and speculators taking over the 534 00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:27,320 Riverside of Bermondsey, which was right opposite the City of 535 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,600 London, to build luxury flats and offices. 536 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,800 We wanted houses with gardens for local people, local jobs, 537 00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:38,320 improve local amenities. That was a really, really big 538 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,000 battle that I was engaged in at that time and of course later on 539 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,360 in 1983 in the Bermozy by election as well. 540 00:34:54,100 --> 00:34:57,620 And the track When you hear this song now, how do you feel? 541 00:34:57,620 --> 00:35:00,700 Has it changed at all from when you heard it first in 1979? 542 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,280 I still feel pretty much the same emotions. 543 00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:09,200 Yes, we've been held down so long, we ain't going to be held 544 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,320 down no more. That's just a it's a universal 545 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,800 and I've often shared this track with people fighting for 546 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,000 disability rights, women's rights, and in far off 547 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,080 countries. I've sent it to people in 548 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,280 Russia, Uganda, Pakistan, Hong Kong. 549 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,120 I tell them, listen to this track, take inspiration. 550 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,000 Absolutely love it, that album that you picked? 551 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:36,480 What's the album Peter and why? The album I picked is City of 552 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:41,320 Angels by the Miracles which came out in 1975. 553 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:57,480 It's an amazing mix of soul and disco, but there was a really 554 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:03,560 big stand out track which is Ain't Nobody Straight in LA. 555 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,840 This is an amazing song. One of the top black music 556 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,240 groups in the United States and the world in that period put out 557 00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:33,480 a song Ain't No Body Straight in LA and the lyrics go like this. 558 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,880 Ain't nobody straight in LA. It seems everyone is gay. 559 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,200 Homosexuality is part of societies. 560 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,160 I guess it leads to more varieties. 561 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,640 Freedom of expression is really the thing now. 562 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:57,920 That was an amazing track from top black artists in 1975. 563 00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:02,240 Huge amount of flak over it, but they made their stand. 564 00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:06,200 When I remember first hearing that track, I thought, what the 565 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,640 miracles seeing this? They're not even gay. 566 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,120 That's what solidarity is all about. 567 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,200 That's Allyship. So yeah, it's an amazing track 568 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,200 and there's lots of others on that album as well. 569 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,520 Not about gay things at all, but great music all around. 570 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,560 Thank you so much for introducing me to this album. 571 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,440 I believe the album is actually a kind of like a concept album. 572 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,320 So there's a story supposedly going on in this cycle of songs. 573 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,480 I think it's about a group of young men who are exploring Los 574 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,160 Angeles for the first time and all the kind of hijinks that 575 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,280 they get up to. Ironically, as they are looking 576 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,480 for women, one of the side excursions they go on is this 577 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,240 idea that maybe they should go to a gay bar to find some women. 578 00:37:55,240 --> 00:37:57,440 Because I think there's an exchange where someone says some 579 00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,960 of the finest women are in gay bars and someone says, well, how 580 00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:02,800 do you know they're women? And someone says, well, gay 581 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,160 people are nice people too, man, let's go. 582 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,400 That would have been truly remarkable, like you said, for 583 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:15,080 an enormous band and an act at the top of their commercial game 584 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,720 in the US. Remarkable that maybe even the 585 00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:20,960 record label approved it. Just to kind of normalise it. 586 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,760 These are the kind of conversations that straight men 587 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,360 sometimes have. They're going to go and check 588 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,960 out the gay bars for some women and to put that into an album 589 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,400 that was intended for commercial success in the mid 70s is 590 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,480 fascinating you. Know some of the finest women 591 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:37,320 are in the gay bar? Hey, Bob. 592 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:43,160 How you know the women? Yeah, look. 593 00:38:43,240 --> 00:38:45,200 Well, look, gay people are nice people too, man. 594 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:46,960 Yeah, man. Let's go. 595 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,440 Man, yeah, I don't think they get the recognition and applause 596 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,400 they deserve for it. Some of the lyrics are a little 597 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,800 bit patronising, like gay people are nice people too, but in the 598 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,280 context at the time that was very bold and brave. 599 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,800 Yes, yes. So the Miracles were Smokey 600 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:03,920 Robinson's band. It was Smokey Robinson and the 601 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:08,160 Miracles and they actually produced the iconic song Tracks 602 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:20,280 of My Tears. Which of course the podcast 603 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,160 you're listening to is in somewhat homage to. 604 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,440 By this point, Smokey Robinson was no longer in the band. 605 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,280 This is when he kind of left and the miracles were like kind of 606 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,200 forming their own sounds. So they probably had a new 607 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:37,120 footprint to build. What a quirky, strange feature 608 00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:41,840 of 70s kind of post Motown R&B. Yeah. 609 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:43,160 Where? Where would you have first heard 610 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,240 something like this, Peter? Where would you ever come across 611 00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:47,800 this album or this song? I heard it on the radio. 612 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,440 It didn't get much play but it did get some play. 613 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:56,640 There was quite a famous black DJ on one of London's main radio 614 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:58,880 stations, Capital, who played it. 615 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:03,960 He was very progressive, very pro LGBT, very pro black rights 616 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,560 as well and women zeration. He played it on and off. 617 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:14,120 He really riled up his audience. Because in those days, straight 618 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,840 society, but in particular sections of the black community 619 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,600 were very, very homophobic. He got a lot of negative 620 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,800 hostility for playing that song. In amongst all of your political 621 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:29,080 work with the Labour Party in the late 70s and the early 80s, 622 00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:32,960 did you ever find time to make the most of what London had to 623 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,800 offer in terms of queer nightlife in the bars and clubs? 624 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:43,680 Until 1976 there were no big gay dance clubs in London. 625 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:50,320 We had a series of mobile discos run by a guy called Tricky 626 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:57,000 Dicky, real name which Gaines, who used to run discos in pubs 627 00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,480 all across London on different nights of the week. 628 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:04,080 And I used to go from, you know, from, you know, all these 629 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:05,760 different clubs on different nights. 630 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,320 I wouldn't go every night, but I'd go up to two times a week. 631 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:15,080 It wasn't until 1976 that the big mega disco was set up by 632 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:19,600 Tottenham Court Road, which had about 12 hundred, 1500 people. 633 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:25,520 And then in 1979, heaven, which was equally as big, was 634 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:29,600 established. I used to try and go once a week 635 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:35,800 at least to a club night just to sort of unwind and lose myself 636 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:40,440 in the joy of the dance floor and, you know, see and hear 637 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:46,760 great music and great artists. Heaven used to host all the big 638 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,960 artists of the era on stage on Saturday night. 639 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:54,360 It was amazing to see these megastars live right before your 640 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,120 eyes. Is there a particular song that 641 00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:58,600 you recall when you think about that time? 642 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,840 A particular artist that you recall seeing at heaven. 643 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,320 Wow. Grace Jones, Sharon. 644 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:16,320 Red Divine. Eartha Kitt, the Weather Girls, 645 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,560 a lot of lot of really big, big, big names. 646 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,240 Incredible. Incredible. 647 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,320 OK, we better move on to your final selection, which is your 648 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,200 artist. Tell me which artist you picked 649 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,880 and of course, why. The artist I've chosen is Bob 650 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,840 Dylan. He's not perfect, he's got his 651 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:40,480 flaws, but in the 1960s, when I was growing up and becoming 652 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:44,320 politically aware and active, his songs were the anthem of the 653 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:48,880 era in particular times. They are changing. 654 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:08,400 This is an anthem for the social upheavals that were taking place 655 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,680 in Western societies, not just the United States, but all 656 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:16,000 across the Western world where young people were challenging 657 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,320 the orthodoxies of their parents. 658 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:23,000 It coincided with the rise of women's, black and gay 659 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,720 liberation. I'll just quote you some of the 660 00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,720 some of the lyrics from the time they were changing. 661 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,280 As the present now will later be passed. 662 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:40,000 The order is rapidly fading and the first one now will later be 663 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,240 last for the times they are changing. 664 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,760 This was symptomatic particularly of the struggle 665 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:51,440 against the Vietnam War. I remember in Melbourne we used 666 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:57,040 to stand on the steps of the GPO General Post Office to hand out 667 00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,040 leaflets against the war and to urge young men to refuse the 668 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,160 draft. And sometimes we'd sing Times 669 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,360 they are changing. When we did sit down protests 670 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:10,840 with we'd sing We shall overcome and time they are changing. 671 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,120 There's another Bob Dylan song that's also very significant, 672 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:20,320 Blowing in the Wind, which came out in 1962. 673 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:27,520 Here's and how many times must the cannonballs fly before 674 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:34,840 therefore River Band? The answer, my friend, is 675 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:39,840 blowing in the wind. The answer is blowing in the 676 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,520 wind. Although it wasn't about any 677 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,600 kind of gay theme, there were elements of the lyrics that 678 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,360 spoke to me. And how many years can some 679 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:54,360 people exist before they're allowed to be free? 680 00:44:54,840 --> 00:45:01,640 How many years must one man have before he can hear people cry? 681 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:07,040 And how many deaths will it take until he knows that too many 682 00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:10,480 people have died? So for me this talked about the 683 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:14,200 oppression that LGBT plus people have faced, the lack of legal 684 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:19,640 rights, the social oppression, the queer bashing, violence that 685 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,920 killed us and maimed us. This spoke to me. 686 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:27,720 Beyond that, it also spoke to the plight of black Australians, 687 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:32,960 ignored and marginalised, not given citizenship even until the 688 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,680 1960s. There were non citizens up till 689 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:40,680 then and you know, again, it's an anthem for people who've been 690 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,560 held down, marginalised, discriminated against and denied 691 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:48,320 their rights. He also sang other songs. 692 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:52,280 In 1964, he put out a track called The Lonesome Death of 693 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:59,200 Hattie Carroll. Hattie Carroll was made in the 694 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:05,280 kitchen. He was 51 years old and give 695 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:10,080 birth to 10 children. She was a barmaid in the Deep 696 00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:17,320 South of America who was murdered by a white racist from 697 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:21,200 a very privileged family. He got six months gaol for 698 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,400 killing her. Six months gaol. 699 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:28,560 So that song by Dylan is about her death. 700 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:34,240 Another one he did in 1975 was Hurricane, which is about the 701 00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:38,040 boxer Reuben Carter, who was nicknamed the Hurricane. 702 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:49,200 He probably could have been a world ranking boxer. 703 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:53,000 He already was in the upper echelons of the boxing world, 704 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:58,920 but he was framed for murders and gaoled for two life terms. 705 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:03,480 Bob Dylan's song Hurricane helped raise public awareness 706 00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:08,400 about the injustice inflicted upon him, but it wasn't until 707 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:10,840 1988 that he was finally released. 708 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:15,080 Yeah, it's remarkable that there was this entire generation, you 709 00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:18,000 know, aside from Bob Dylan, there was also people like 710 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:22,920 Aretha Franklin, Stevie Wonder, Janis Joplin, this, this kind of 711 00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:26,080 through line of artist. The quote that you read out, or 712 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,040 perhaps you said it yourself, it defined there was a line in the 713 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:32,040 sand between the youth and their parents. 714 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,400 That line of political views and how you viewed the world. 715 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:39,320 There was art and music where you could hear stories and 716 00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:43,400 lyrics which made you feel seen. It made your your your existence 717 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:47,760 be acknowledged, but it also fueled you and energised you on 718 00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:50,680 on fighting for the struggles that you believed in. 719 00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,680 You're absolutely right. I mean, there was Nina Simone's 720 00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:54,920 Mississippi. Goddamn Alabama. 721 00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,720 It's got me so upset and Memphis has made me lose my rest. 722 00:48:00,720 --> 00:48:10,680 Everybody know. The about lynchings of black 723 00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:14,800 people in the Deep South. We had Sam Cooke seeing change 724 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,680 is going to come, very similar to Bob Dylan's. 725 00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:20,800 Times are changing. It's. 726 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:35,520 Been a long a long time coming. Bob Dylan was reflective of a 727 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:40,160 whole strand of artists who did great music that had very 728 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:44,640 positive, very strong, powerful political messages about 729 00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:46,440 liberation. Fantastic. 730 00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:50,080 Thank you very much for sharing. Peter Tatchell, What does the 731 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:55,760 term queer icon mean to you today in 2025? 732 00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:00,200 The term queer icon means different things to different 733 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,000 people depending on where they're coming from. 734 00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:06,680 For some, it will mean queer artists and performers like 735 00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:10,440 Chapel Rhone. For others, it might mean actors 736 00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,360 like Ian McKellen and Stephen Fry. 737 00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:19,600 For me, it's more the Trail Blazers, people who came before, 738 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:21,960 who paved the way for our rights and freedoms. 739 00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:27,240 Now I'm thinking of Edward Carpenter, the 19th century 740 00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:32,400 English socialist and gay rights advocate who lived openly with 741 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,040 his partner George Merrill at a time when homosexuality in 742 00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:38,400 England was still punishable by life imprisonment. 743 00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:44,880 Henry Gerber founded the first LGBT bus organisation in the 744 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:50,200 United States in 1924. He was a simple post office 745 00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,920 worker, working class guy, incredibly brave. 746 00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:58,960 He set up the first organisation in the US to champion our rights 747 00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:03,160 and suffered. These and others are my queer 748 00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:07,000 icons, the Trail Blazers, The Pioneers. 749 00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:09,960 What would you make of, I'm sure many of the listeners to this 750 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,280 episode listing Peter Tatchell in their own list of queer 751 00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,320 icons? Well, that's up to them. 752 00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:17,760 I just see myself as a campaign or an activist. 753 00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:22,400 I do my bit, I try my best and yeah, that's it. 754 00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:26,520 That's it. How could people support most 755 00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,680 effectively the work of the Peter Tatchell Foundation at 756 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:32,040 this time? If people are interested in 757 00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:36,680 following my work, please go to the website of my foundation, 758 00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:41,920 it's petertatchellfoundation.org You'll find a button which says 759 00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,720 join us or subscribe. Just give us your e-mail address 760 00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:50,160 and we will send you a weekly bulletin on a range of LGBT PLUS 761 00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,560 and other human rights issues. It's totally free. 762 00:50:53,720 --> 00:50:58,720 You can unsubscribe at any time. We get no grants or funding. 763 00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,280 If you feel able to do so, please consider making a 764 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,280 donation. Peter Tatchell, you are queer 765 00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,080 and thank you very much for your tracks. 766 00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,280 Thank you so much. It's been my pleasure to join 767 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,400 you. I'll sign off with my motto, 768 00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:17,680 which is don't accept the world as it is. 769 00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:23,720 Dream of what the world could be and then help make it happen. 770 00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:27,120 Spectacular. Thank you very much. 771 00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,640 You can find links to the Peter Tatchell Foundation online and I 772 00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,400 want to encourage you to follow Peter's advice and sign up for 773 00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,800 his newsletter. I hadn't until we spoke. 774 00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,640 And some of the news that he shares is, yes, shocking and 775 00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,760 frustrating, but there's also a lot of encouraging progress out 776 00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:51,560 there in the world too that he surfaces. 777 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,600 The documentary Hating Peter Tatchell was produced by Elton 778 00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,240 John and David Furnish and is truly remarkable. 779 00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,520 I watched it here in Australia on SBS On Demand, but I believe 780 00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:03,960 it's on Netflix in the UK and the US. 781 00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,800 This episode of Tracks of Our Queers was recorded and edited 782 00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,280 on the Garriga Land. And check out my Spotify 783 00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:12,720 playlist, including my favourite selections from different 784 00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:14,840 episodes. LinkedIn the show notes and you 785 00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:16,880 can e-mail me, Gabe Ramblings at any time at 786 00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:21,880 tracksofourqueers@gmail.com. See you next time.