1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:13,240 Hello and welcome My name is Andy Gott, and each 2 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,560 episode I chat to a fascinating queer person about some of the 3 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:18,800 music that has soundtracked their journey. 4 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,640 I've always had a bit of a personal fascination for those 5 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:27,760 lives lived at the sidelines of show business. 6 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:32,520 To understand what hides behind the curtain and confidently see 7 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,240 through Hollywood's facade while still embracing the lights. 8 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,440 And understanding that role of showbiz magic is, I think, 9 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,600 absolutely part of the queer experience. 10 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,160 Not only because very many queer people have filled those 11 00:00:46,160 --> 00:00:49,320 supporting roles in showbiz over the decades, but seeing 12 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,560 something for what it seems to be and what it really is, I 13 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,040 think is one of our superpowers as queer people. 14 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,920 I first encountered Bruce Filanch as a guest judge in the 15 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:02,840 early seasons of RuPaul's Drug Race and was intrigued. 16 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,320 A man possessed of a witch sharpened by decades in the 17 00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:09,200 industry, yet fundamentally a fan. 18 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,080 If you're not familiar with his contributions to pop culture, 19 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,760 Bruce is a seasoned Hollywood writer with a resume ranging 20 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,480 from 25 years scripting the Academy Awards through to the 21 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,040 infamous Star Wars Hollywood Special, and truly everything in 22 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:25,280 between. His pen jokes for Diana Ross, 23 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,760 Barbra Streisand, Lily Tomlin, Rosie O'Donnell, Whoopi 24 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,160 Goldberg, even Robin Williams, and then there's Bette Midler. 25 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:37,200 Bruce met Bette in Chicago in the early 70s after she was 26 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,360 taken by review that he'd written of a show. 27 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,040 And from the bath houses of New York to the writing room for 28 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,920 Hocus Pocus 3. More on that later. 29 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,280 The pair have maintained a personal and professional 30 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,080 relationship, going strong to this day. 31 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,360 Last year, Bruce pulled together some of his life's outrageous 32 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,320 experiences in the memoir. It seemed like a bad idea at the 33 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:58,920 time. I thoroughly enjoyed the 34 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,880 audiobook version narrated by Bruce and you you can find your 35 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,400 preferred medium wherever you get your books. 36 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,680 Tracks of Our Queers is an entirely independent production 37 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,080 that I happily cobbled together in my spare time, and every 38 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,200 penny that you can spare will go directly to supporting the costs 39 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,280 of this little gay hobby. You can buy me a coffee the link 40 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:18,960 in the episode Jonas, if you so wish. 41 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,760 And thank you very much in advance over to Bruce. 42 00:02:27,920 --> 00:02:30,120 Bruce Villanche, welcome to Trucks of Our Queers. 43 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,240 Thank you. Good day. 44 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:33,400 Good. Day. 45 00:02:33,640 --> 00:02:37,560 Throw that in early, get my crib before I get into the deeper 46 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,000 Australian slang. You know, quiet over the years. 47 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,880 Before we get to your experiences in Australia, please 48 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:49,720 tell me where you grew up. Paris, New Jersey, which is 12 49 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:51,960 miles across the George Washington Bridge from 50 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,880 Manhattan, NY, where I was born and adopted it four days and 51 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:01,720 taken to Jersey, the first of many slides being removed from 52 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,840 New York to New Jersey. But I grew up there and it was 53 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,840 fine and I was there until I went to college and that's where 54 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,720 I grew up. Now that I'm many decades away 55 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,520 from it, I realised it was pretty good. 56 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,120 I was always interested in theatre, and so for me, New York 57 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,120 was the Mecca. I felt like I had to get out to 58 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,560 get to New York, and I wound up never living in New York, 59 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,320 working in New York, staying there for years on end on one 60 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,320 thing or another, and then becoming a Californian. 61 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,640 So the statute of limitations on New Jersey has run out on 62 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,280 quarry. Forgive me, Jersey, you can't 63 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,840 get me now. When you were growing up in New 64 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,800 Jersey, what was the musical atmosphere at home? 65 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:41,560 What were your parents playing at home? 66 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,880 My parents were not playing classical music, which is why I 67 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:47,640 had very little grounding in that. 68 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,120 I had to gain that as an adult. Although they made a few stabs 69 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,600 at getting me interested, they weren't wildly interested in it. 70 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,640 My father loved musicals. He invested in musicals on 71 00:03:57,640 --> 00:03:59,760 Broadway. My mother was kind of a 72 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:01,240 showgirl. Monkeys. 73 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,160 She wanted to be a showgirl, but she married a doctor instead. 74 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,400 She worked out that muscle by doing a lot of charity benefits. 75 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:12,160 So I guess that she passed that down to me because benefits are 76 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,960 us at this point. So we have listened to a lot of 77 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,160 Broadway, a lot of pop stuff. And then, you know, I am old 78 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,640 enough that I was around when Rock'n'roll was born. 79 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,600 And so I was the first rebellious teenager to play 80 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,400 Rock'n'roll in the house. They have parents going. 81 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,920 What is that? Because it was not by 82 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,720 rock'n'roll was R&B and country music combined. 83 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,560 So they neither one of those on their top 10. 84 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,000 When you were formulating your own sense of taste, you 85 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,280 mentioned rock'n'roll. Were you drawn to any particular 86 00:04:45,280 --> 00:04:48,280 artist, or is there a track that reminds you of your teens in 87 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:50,800 particular? Oh my God, there's so many. 88 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,960 I mean, yeah, I like all the Chuck Berry and Fats Domino. 89 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,360 the early ones, you know, Elvis and then Motown kind of took 90 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,840 over. I mean, it was The Supremes and 91 00:05:13,840 --> 00:05:27,360 the Temps and the Tops and Marvin Gaye, all So Bruce, I'm 92 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:28,400 just going to come clean with you. 93 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:33,560 I have been bingeing you lately. I've been on a Bruce binge so I 94 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,240 just listened to your audio book. 95 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:37,880 It seemed like a bad idea at the time. 96 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:42,720 I finished that 2 days ago and I've been deep in the YouTube 97 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,320 annals of Bruce. Annals and. 98 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,680 Well can actually can I just give some feedback from 99 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,840 Australia? Your late 90s documentary Get 100 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:55,280 Bruce is not to be found anywhere online, so I haven't 101 00:05:55,280 --> 00:05:57,360 seen it. We can't find it anywhere, so if 102 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,200 we can talk to the powers that be somewhere about that, I'd 103 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,160 like to make that request. Drops on and off of Netflix. 104 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,240 I don't know why. I mean, there's a metric. 105 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,520 When the book dropped last year, it suddenly pepped up on Netflix 106 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:12,560 again and then it went away, I guess. 107 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,520 And the paperback is dropping here on June 2nd, so they may 108 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:18,160 get a little action on it, you know? 109 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:23,640 It may come back up, but one of the many takeaways I I took from 110 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,400 just being absorbed in the way that you think about music and 111 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:30,120 culture and art is that yes, so much of your career has been 112 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,040 spent creating it. And we'll get to all of those 113 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,200 questions, but fundamentally, you are a fan. 114 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:37,960 Like, would that be a fair assessment? 115 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,360 I just got this sense that from a very young age, you are a fan 116 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,360 of music, of the likes of, you know, the people who would be 117 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:46,880 listening to a podcast like this. 118 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:48,560 You are a super fan. Yeah. 119 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:49,840 I. AM. 120 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:52,720 Sure. I just love that you've had this 121 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:58,040 trajectory of discovering music and experiencing fandom for all 122 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,840 of these artists, and then you carve out this career where you 123 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:04,800 you create art with them and you create art for them. 124 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,520 I think it's really fascinating to someone like myself to see 125 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,600 that behind the scenes for all these decades, there are 126 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,720 actually many fans at work making stars. 127 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:16,680 Stars. Oh, I think I have to be. 128 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,200 If you don't like the music, why are you in the business? 129 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,720 But I, I have worked with tonnes of musical stars in my day. 130 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,440 So you have to understand the music because anything that you 131 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,120 write for them is connected to the music that they're doing. 132 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,800 And so throughout the very healthy appreciation for music 133 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,640 and musicians, although I am not one myself, I mean, I'm an 134 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:42,320 eccentric singer and dancer, but I did Hairspray on Broadway and 135 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:49,520 on tour. Hey, baby, look at me. 136 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,240 In which you have to be enough of a dancer and singer to do 137 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,560 what Harvey Fierstein did. You got a hairy hobby, you know. 138 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:01,440 Wow. Harvey is in the room with us. 139 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,520 Harvey's joined the Zoom. But just speaking about people 140 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,200 that you've really admired yourself. 141 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:11,320 You've mentioned a few times Noël Coward, and I find that 142 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:13,080 fascinating. I'd love to chat briefly about 143 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:14,720 Noël Coward. He was not in your musical 144 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:16,840 selections. And I've had previous guests 145 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,560 discuss icons from times past, like I think the oldest I've had 146 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,040 so far is Maria Callas, Joan Sutherland. 147 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,320 But I do think Noel could be our most ancient yet. 148 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,280 He could actually met him towards the end of his life. 149 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:34,000 I was very young and he was well, he he died at 73. 150 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,120 But I met him towards the end because my friend, a guy I work 151 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:42,240 with, Joe Layton, who was a favourite of Knowles, who staged 152 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,480 a couple of Broadway things, Sail Away, The Girl Who Came to 153 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,640 Supper, and he did a musical of Gone With the Wind, if you can 154 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:51,960 believe this, it was called Scarlett. 155 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,320 And then it went to London and I was in London with him. 156 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,520 Will Coward came to the opening night and we spent some time 157 00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:02,360 after that. It was really not long before he 158 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,760 passed. But I loved his music because he 159 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:10,000 wrote parody lyrics, which not parody lyrics, but hysterically 160 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:11,880 funny lyrics. You know, Don't put your 161 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,360 daughter on the stage. Don't put your daughter on the 162 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,840 stage, Missus Worthington. Don't put your daughter on the 163 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,920 stage. And all of that stuff. 164 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,720 All the stuff from his musicals. I love just playwriting, 165 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,080 basically. I just admired him because he 166 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,000 was one of those guys. He was very British. 167 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,000 I think everybody knew that he was gay, but it was never spoken 168 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,160 of. And that's because back then to 169 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,240 be gay was to be considered evil. 170 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,520 You were the character who killed himself or was murdered 171 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,040 by thugs and everybody had a confirmed bachelor in their 172 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,640 family who they knew was the Gunkal, but they just never. 173 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,440 And he lived his life openly that way, as openly as you put 174 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,440 it, was still illegal in Britain, especially when he was 175 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,040 living his life. So I admired him and I thought 176 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,320 he was just brilliant. Did you know that he was gay 177 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:03,560 before you discovered his writing? 178 00:10:03,560 --> 00:10:06,240 Or was it evident in his writing that he was gay? 179 00:10:06,680 --> 00:10:09,840 I probably didn't know it when I I just thought he was incredibly 180 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,720 sophisticated and as a performer, right, sort of 181 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,680 epicine. And then I began figuring out, 182 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,840 you know, what gay was. I was at that age, I was 183 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,160 figuring it out. And I was an actor. 184 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,080 I was a child actor in theatre. So I was surrounded by gay 185 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,720 people. And so it didn't take me very 186 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,080 long to figure out what I liked. So I was there with them, 187 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,000 although I did have girlfriends. For years, my parents were 188 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,720 afraid I would get married. I'd run off a low with Myra 189 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,680 Greenberg. She married my best friend. 190 00:10:39,680 --> 00:10:42,640 So where do you go? If there is a Noël Coward play 191 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,240 that someone who knows nothing about Noël Coward should go and 192 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,520 start with. What would you recommend as the 193 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,600 gateway drug? Well, it's it's probably either 194 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:52,960 a private lives or a blind spirit. 195 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,400 Those are the two. But hay fever is pretty funny 196 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,160 too. So I think those would probably 197 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,720 be in the troika and they get performed more than anything 198 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:01,920 else. So yeah. 199 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,840 And then on to the next historical homosexual, if you 200 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,200 will, that I'd just like to briefly touch on. 201 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:13,320 So do you remember when on Snatch Game, Little Edie blew up 202 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,120 from Grey Gardens because Jinx Monsoon did Little Edie and 203 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,040 everyone suddenly discovered who Little Edie was? 204 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:19,840 Do you remember that kind of phenomenon happening? 205 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,160 Well, yeah, I mean, there had been, I guess there was a 206 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,800 generation that didn't know who she was, that they had missed 207 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:26,920 all the iterations of Grey Gardens. 208 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,480 And so as they were discovering it through RuPaul's drag ways, 209 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,720 then, you know, so be it. But it had been, it had been in 210 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,880 the zeitgeist forever. And she had a nightclub act when 211 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:38,920 I had a nightclub act, played the same. 212 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,400 Yeah. EDBO played Reno Sweeney, which 213 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,480 was a club in the Village, in Greenwich Village. 214 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:45,040 Yeah. She was very much in the 215 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,080 zeitgeist. I framed this anecdote terribly 216 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,440 because what I was going to say is I did know who Little Eddie 217 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,360 was when I saw on Snatch Game, but years later, because I'd 218 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,080 seen the documentary and I found it fascinating, years later, I 219 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:02,760 discovered Paul Lind for the first time on Snatch Game, and 220 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,880 so that gave me empathy for people who didn't know who 221 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,000 Little Eddie was. When I saw Paul Lind on Ripple's 222 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,480 Drag Race, I just thought he was one of the most hysterical 223 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,800 people that I'd ever seen. And I kind of went on a bit of a 224 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,920 deep dive and absorbed everything I could on Wikipedia 225 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,400 and YouTube, of course. But then listening to your audio 226 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:22,560 book where you talk about this so-called infamous Halloween 227 00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:25,840 special in detail, to me it just sounds like the most fabulous 228 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,240 thing ever. And of course, the title of your 229 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,600 book is that it's a bad idea. But I just think this is the 230 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,440 most glorious idea. It's so brilliant. 231 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:35,880 Well, you have the you have the right sensibility. 232 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,200 And the fact is, one of the reasons it's in the book is it 233 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,920 lives Halloween. They're the whole cult of people 234 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,000 who watch it every year. And in fact, there are people 235 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,560 who have their kids watch it because it's one of those things 236 00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:50,400 like Cocus Pocus, that is a Halloween item where nobody gets 237 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:52,880 disembowelled. So it lives. 238 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:57,440 But, and I'm frequently caught saying if Paul knew that 40 239 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,760 years after he was dead, we'd be talking about him, he would roll 240 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:07,360 over in Liberace's grave because he was never convinced that he 241 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,200 was a star. I mean, he knew there was. 242 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:16,400 Obviously he was very wealthy and well regarded, but in his 243 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,000 mind, he was not the kind of star he wanted to be. 244 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,920 He wants to be a movie star. And it didn't happen for him. 245 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,760 It happened for his friends who he came up with on Broadway, Mel 246 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,520 Brooks and Woody Allen, who wrote their own material. 247 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,720 And Paul was a good writer, but it was difficult to write for 248 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:34,800 his character because his character never lived in a 249 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,440 negative universe. He was always the guy who was in 250 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:42,000 the way. And it could be summed up in his 251 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:47,040 breakout show Bye Bye Birdie, where he's also in the movie 252 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,720 playing the harassed father in Ohio. 253 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,640 And he keeps saying that nobody respects him. 254 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,480 And his kid says him I respect you daddy. 255 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,720 And he says who wants respect from a 10 year old and that 256 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,520 nothing was ever good enough. It wasn't. 257 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,000 He really wanted more, but what he got was plenty. 258 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,600 He's a fascinating character to me, you know? 259 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,520 Billy Acton is developing a movie about Paul. 260 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:12,400 No way. OK, that's. 261 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,960 Fascinating. Had several stabs at a script, 262 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:20,520 but it's not a pretty story. And so it's hard because you're 263 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:26,440 digging in on a character who a lot of people who know thought 264 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,000 was fun and crazy and lighthearted, and they're not 265 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:30,800 aware of the heaviness of the story. 266 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:34,240 And whenever you do a heavy story about a comic personality, 267 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,720 it's very difficult. Those are very difficult waters 268 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,560 to navigate unless they have a personality like Lenny Bruce, 269 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,720 who was as famous for being in trouble as he was for being 270 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:47,920 funny. You have to find that, and 271 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,640 Paul's not that guy. So we'll see what happens. 272 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:55,360 That sentence you said the the character lived in the negative 273 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,280 universe just articulates it so clearly. 274 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,080 And I understand how this story is not a neat, happy Hollywood 275 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:06,120 story to tell, but I think it's so important for, you know, what 276 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,960 we understand. Like queer representation was in 277 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,360 the mid 20th century. And, you know, there's all sorts 278 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,160 of complexities that go into shape a person's character. 279 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,480 But that tragedy, that darkness that you see in Paul, maybe it 280 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,480 was more dominant in him than others. 281 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,120 But a lot of queer people can tap into that darkness and that 282 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:28,160 tragedy and that kind of resentment of not being the main 283 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,320 character, not being the hero who everyone just loves and 284 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,960 forms over. So then you become this kind of 285 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,680 side character with the barbs and the snipes and the sassy 286 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,760 wits. But then it locks you into that 287 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,520 box and then people don't want you to try anything else. 288 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:44,200 And then you get even more resentful about that. 289 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,200 Like the way you explained it both in the book and now just 290 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,680 makes total sense, I guess. What's your take on him? 291 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,160 I don't know how close you got to him as a human to human when 292 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,960 you were working with him, but what was he like up close in 293 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,640 person? Well, on one drink he was 294 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,720 hysterically funny. On 2 drinks he was the Nazi high 295 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,520 command and you didn't want to go near him. 296 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:09,880 He's always sort of faintly unhappy of that stuff, so he was 297 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,600 kind of difficult to be around for a while. 298 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,520 But if you could keep me relatively sober, he was 299 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:17,120 charming and funny and all of that. 300 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:22,280 But there was such a meanness that came out born of whatever 301 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,240 missed opportunities, whatever. Or he didn't think he was 302 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,920 getting what he deserved. Billy Arkman says, well, he 303 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,480 wanted to do other roles, but he was he was gay man. 304 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,680 And so they that was what kept that was not what kept him down. 305 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:39,120 What kept him down was his whole personality, his whole gestalt. 306 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,320 His persona was negative, which was hilarious. 307 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,760 And people loved him for it. I mean, he was Uncle Arthur on 308 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,480 Bewitched. So he was like the crazy gay 309 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:50,760 uncle. And he was not alone in this. 310 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,040 I mean, there were people like Charles Nelson Reilly and 311 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,640 Richard Simmons and Billy Dewolf and Jim J Bullock. 312 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,920 There were a lot of comic actors who nobody wanted to think I'll 313 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:05,319 of because and if they were known to be gay openly, then 314 00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:07,960 they would be thought I'll of because that's what the 315 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,560 prevailing mindset was at the time. 316 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,760 So he was fighting for the world and now the world has changed 317 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:15,800 so. Very complex and interesting. 318 00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:18,000 All right, I've got maybe one more question for you before we 319 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:19,800 jump into your own musical selections. 320 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,720 Now, I have heard you talk about this at length on various 321 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:25,680 interviews and podcasts, and I love that. 322 00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:28,319 You know, is it fair to say you even wrote this book because you 323 00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:30,920 were on so many podcasts in the pandemic that you're like, I've 324 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,000 just got to share these stories myself. 325 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,800 Oh. My God this is 1/2 assed memoir 326 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,120 I've got here. Here you are back on another 327 00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:41,280 podcast, but I'm going to try and talk about fresh things 328 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:43,320 here. But the Star Wars Hollywood 329 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:47,120 special, I'm not going to ask you again about the specific 330 00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:49,800 details that you spoke about, but I am absolutely fascinated 331 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:54,480 by the role that this little TV show from the 70s plays in pop 332 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,640 culture. From my point of view, it became 333 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,640 a running gag, a complete anomaly in entertainment, and it 334 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,120 was produced, as you say, because the stars just kind of 335 00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:04,680 aligned to create this very weird and wonderful thing. 336 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:06,960 In your words. It was kind of ignored at the 337 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,080 time. It just went on air and then it 338 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,000 went away and then it was reborn in infamy thanks to the 339 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,480 Internet. And then in time, present day 340 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:20,000 parts of that story you wrote that was laughter are now 341 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:24,440 accepted as Canon by perhaps the most notorious fan base on the 342 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:26,800 planet. You can go on Disney Plus and 343 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:30,840 see very serious political dramas which reference this 344 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:35,560 crazy TV special from the 70s to me, take the Star Wars part out 345 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:37,720 of it. I just think that arc is 346 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:43,000 fascinating in how we judge creative work in the moment when 347 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:47,240 we're exposed to it and how it evolves over a period of time. 348 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,520 And yes, there's very specific things that happened, like the 349 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,920 invention of the Internet and having access to this archive, 350 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,320 which we didn't have before, but I just think that is 351 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,760 fascinating. Does anything of that resonate 352 00:18:58,760 --> 00:18:59,880 with you? Do you have any thoughts on 353 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:00,600 that? Well. 354 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,080 It was, it was a commercial venture that George got into 355 00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:08,120 because he wanted to stir the pot, because the first movie was 356 00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:10,920 18 months old and he was about to start shooting The Empire 357 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,760 Strikes Back and he wanted to keep the flame burning until the 358 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,440 empire was issued. And back then, in the era of the 359 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,720 three networks in America, a big variety special. 360 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,240 We keep the pot simmering. But he immediately, once he 361 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,880 realised what he had done, he distanced himself from it 362 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,640 because he had sold CBS. An impossible situation. 363 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,520 First of all, a musical special starring the Wookies who could 364 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,480 not sing or dance or cross the room without tripping on 365 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,160 something. And that was #1 and #2 well, 366 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,160 then it came and it went. It got a respectable rating. 367 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:44,360 And some people thought it was fun. 368 00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:47,240 Some people thought it was appalling, and nobody thought 369 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,240 that much. And then it's, it sat 370 00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:52,640 undiscovered for years. And as you say, the Internet 371 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,240 came in. But what also happened when the 372 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,640 Internet came in? By the time the Internet came 373 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:01,440 in, there were three Star Wars movies out and there was a 374 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,800 religion. It was the Scientology of the 375 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,400 nerds. And when they discovered this 376 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:10,120 thing on YouTube, they said, how did this happen? 377 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,320 They've ruined. How did George, you know, step 378 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,360 on his cock like this? And George got, you know, scared 379 00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:19,800 because he had actual death threats and because, you know, 380 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,720 some of these people are. So he tried, he disowned that. 381 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,120 He tried to buy it up. Well of course the ship had 382 00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:29,800 sailed as every time these were released Star Wars Holiday 383 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,120 Special bubbled up and he couldn't get rid of it. 384 00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:38,000 So when he sold his company to Disney, among the things he did 385 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:42,560 was take the one thing that the Star Wars fans loved from the 386 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,920 special, which was Boba Fett. He tried to get Boba Fett sold 387 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,200 as a feature length animation and he couldn't get a buyer for 388 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,080 it. So he went to Canada and had a 389 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:57,720 10 minute segment shot that we put in the special and and Boba 390 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,880 Fett got his own series on Disney Plus, of course, because 391 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,200 one of the things Disney, he launched, Disney Plus launched 392 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,320 with The Mandalorian. So he was in high cotton at 393 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,920 Disney Plus. And so he got them to put Bubba 394 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,120 Fett on it and that's the one surviving thing. 395 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,840 He then took the title Star Wars Holiday Special and made a deal 396 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,720 with Lego and they did a special for Disney Plus. 397 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:25,160 The Star Wars Holiday stuff with Lego with Daisy Ridley action 398 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:26,960 figure looked a lot like Rosie Obama. 399 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,920 It was very strange. And so the Star Wars the and 400 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,800 they were doing the same. The basic plot was we had to get 401 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:39,480 Chewbacca home for Life Day, the Holloman George invented and he 402 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,160 resuscitated it on the Lego show. 403 00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:45,760 So now every year they go back for Life Day. 404 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,480 And of course, you know, there's, I told George, you 405 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,240 already have a holiday. The fans made May 4th a holiday 406 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:52,840 because may the fourth be with you. 407 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,320 I don't think Life Day will ever be in shredded like Festivus. 408 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,440 What happened was it was totally accidental. 409 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,120 I mean, it was not, you know, it's like The Big Bang Theory. 410 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,800 It was like this. This is what happened. 411 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,800 It was a unique experience. And I think that's why myself 412 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,600 and so many people love it, because it it just shouldn't 413 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,960 have happened, but it did. And it's so good that it did. 414 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,320 Let's jump into your music because I can't wait. 415 00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:21,400 When I asked you to choose some selections, I asked for a track, 416 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,240 an album and an artist. And what we're going to do is 417 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,600 actually start with the album, I think, because it makes sense to 418 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,920 talk about the track and the artist together. 419 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:35,040 So Bruce, I'd love to know what album did you pick to discuss 420 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,000 and why? The album is Lauren Nero and 421 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,240 LaBelle, which was done in the 70s. 422 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,400 It's. Going to take a miracle? 423 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:49,960 Yes, it's going to take a. Miracle Lauren Nero, of course, 424 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,200 is one of the most influential writer personalities and 425 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,160 influenced a lot of people, including Bette Midler. 426 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,360 But she was an odd duck and a weird voice, and one of the 427 00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:05,160 albums she did was with Gamble and Huff, who were R&B producers 428 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,760 in Philadelphia, and they paired her with this new group called 429 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:11,720 LaBelle. It had been Patti LaBelle and 430 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,800 the Bluebells and they'd had AI think a couple of R&B hits and 431 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,480 then I think the Bluebells went away and they brought in Sarah 432 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:24,600 Dash and Nona Hendrix, who were really hardcore, real, real R&B 433 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,440 singers. And this was before they had 434 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,440 Lady Marmalade many years before, which was their huge 435 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:41,280 breakout hit. And they were all living in 436 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,400 Philly and Laura went down to Philly and recorded this thing. 437 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:50,440 And basically it was 3 girls doing a lot of Doo wop, which 438 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,320 was something that only guys did. 439 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,920 And what Doo wop was like 3 guys standing around a garbage can 440 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,680 that was on fire for warmth. And they were singing and they 441 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,720 were making up their own melodies. 442 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,640 And if you've ever seen Shannon, they were a parody of a Doo wop 443 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,680 group. But I love there were a lot of 444 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,320 Doo wop records that were like why Do Fools Fall in Love? 445 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:26,600 Was a big hit. Because it had a solo with a guy 446 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,560 who had a high voice and just people behind him would go. 447 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,440 And so they took a bunch of Doo wop songs, which were pretty 448 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:40,560 much disposable, and they turned them into this magnificent, 449 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:46,440 very, very lightly orchestrated vocal performance. 450 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,680 One fabulous record, one fabulous song after another. 451 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:07,440 It's absolutely spectacular. And what appeals to me always is 452 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,280 that they did what Bette Midler did after them, which were they 453 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,400 found stuff that was considered trash and they turned it into 454 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,080 art. And I think that that is a very 455 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:22,640 queer thing because they were outliers and we are generally 456 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,720 outliers. And as a result, we have managed 457 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,120 to invent camp and we have managed to invent kitsch and we 458 00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:31,880 have managed to invent all of these things which focus on 459 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,600 stuff that mainstream thinks is unworthy. 460 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,800 And we have made them not just worthy, but beautiful. 461 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,200 So whenever I listen to that, that's what kind of goes through 462 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,080 me is how they discovered this, how these two straight guys who 463 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,080 produced it and the women, I think two of them, Laura was 464 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,880 bisexual and I think Nona was gay. 465 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,600 How they created this is a wonderful thing. 466 00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:58,560 I love that so. That's my album and Desert 467 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,400 Island, my Desert Island disc. Do you remember when you first 468 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:02,760 heard this? Would you remember what was 469 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,160 happening in your life when you first discovered Laura Nero? 470 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,000 She had a bunch of other records that I had heard first and then 471 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,080 this was like, I just was a fan of hers. 472 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,880 And so this one came along, but this one was like nothing else 473 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,720 that she'd ever recorded. I don't think there are any of 474 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,480 her own compositions on it. That was one thing because her 475 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:25,240 her lyrics were so out there and exotic and crazy and but she had 476 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,040 commercial hits for other people. 477 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,400 You know one of her biggest commercial hits was Wedding 478 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:43,200 Belle Blues. Which was, I don't think she was 479 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,080 looking to get married, but she cast herself in the role of a 480 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,000 woman who was saying enough already. 481 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,000 It's like Guys and Dolls, you know, 14 years we've been 482 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,760 engaged. And when she sings Wedding Bell 483 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:58,080 Blues and has a real plaintive thing that the 5th dimension had 484 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,840 the hit, Marilyn Mccoo sings. And it's just big and up and 485 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:09,200 showy and it's good. But am I ever gonna hear my? 486 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,360 Wedding bell. But when Laura sings it, it's 487 00:27:17,360 --> 00:27:21,120 kind of like, come on already, Neil, I love you. 488 00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:23,560 But Neil, enough already. Let's get married. 489 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,160 Because, you know, this was right late 60s, early 70s, and 490 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,040 it was like the last gasp of that, you know, then Tony 491 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,760 Mitchell sang My old man, we don't need a piece of paper from 492 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,920 the City Hall to indicate the new direction where this 493 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,480 generation was gone. It's fascinating how of course, 494 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,680 as gay people we had to get married just to have our basic 495 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,000 civil. Right, Yes, that is fascinating. 496 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,120 But the other fascinating thing there that you touch on is that 497 00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:52,360 sense of and yes, it's not always this clear cut or simple, 498 00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:57,120 but generally speaking, you know, the mainstream lives in 499 00:27:57,120 --> 00:28:00,160 the major key and queerness lives in the minor key. 500 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,080 And even I apply that to even just what you said about that 501 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,920 wedding bell Blues when it's sung by another performer, it's 502 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,000 this really uplifting, fun song. And then like, you know, that 503 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,960 the singer of it has this kind of more plaintiff like a 504 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,600 melancholy to it. Melancholy is a very queer 505 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,200 emotion, I find. But I do love what you said 506 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,760 about, you know, taking these songs that had been somewhat 507 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,680 disposable for others. And, you know, I do have to call 508 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,120 out that not all of these tracks are what I would call 509 00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:31,000 disposable. So you make me feel like a 510 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,360 natural woman. It's going to take a miracle. 511 00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:35,760 Jimmy Mack. So the originals of those songs 512 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,760 are masterpieces. But I totally. 513 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,760 I mean, it was a little boppy rock'n'roll song. 514 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,760 Thinking of it as there's a desperation in her voice. 515 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,160 She's thinking about it. When are you coming back? 516 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,000 I, I can't laugh. I can't hold out very much 517 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,400 longer that's not in the original. 100% and that's it. 518 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,400 I'm trying to think of more of other examples I can think of 519 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,240 because there's so many. But when the cover artist finds 520 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,960 in the original this like throwaway ditty, they find 521 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,560 hidden emotions and they unlock them and then that allows the 522 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,920 song to find a whole new audience who maybe discarded it 523 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:30,880 before. I mean, like I mentioned, bet at 524 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,880 this point, her first hit do you want to dance? 525 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,600 Which was is that do you do you want? 526 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,640 And she turned it into a, you know, dancing is not what she 527 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,120 was looking for from this person. 528 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,280 You want to dance meant something else entirely. 529 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,600 And it was about longing and, and it was erotic. 530 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:51,640 And it was. And I think people heard that 531 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,640 and they heard this in her voice. 532 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,880 What she was really saying was a whole lot more than just, do you 533 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,200 want to do the jitterbug with me? 534 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:12,080 Oh baby. I think we have no choice. 535 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,360 You've broken the dam, Bruce. The Bette Midler dam has been 536 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,560 broken. Let's move on because my usual 537 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:23,120 question here is, OK, so tell me what artist you picked and why. 538 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,800 And people will mention this person that's really resonated 539 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:27,160 with them or means a lot to them. 540 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,280 But I'm going to just try and take a moment of pause here 541 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,040 because for 55 years, you've shared a relationship with this 542 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,520 artist as a collaborator and a friend. 543 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,120 And it's not just any old singer, but an an Old Testament 544 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,160 queer icon, if you will. You know Bette Midler is in the 545 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,320 pantheon. Is it remotely possible to 546 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,240 articulate in this very short timeline we have on a podcast? 547 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,960 What does Bette Midler mean to you as a queer person? 548 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:56,680 Well, as a queer person, she means something. 549 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,000 I mean, I've been working with her 55 years, doing the comedy 550 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,000 stuff with her, but I've gotten to know all of it as a queer 551 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:04,760 person. She immediately had an 552 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,160 attraction to a gay audience, partially because she had broken 553 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,360 out of the continental badge in New York and the word had spread 554 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,480 in the gay community. This with that singer, when they 555 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,240 saw her on the first tour or on television, they recognised 556 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:23,040 immediately she was an outlier like them that she was somebody 557 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,560 who would come out on stage and she would talk about she said 558 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,320 we're going to do a medley and we search far and wide for the 559 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,720 songs for this medley. And we came up with Tutu and 560 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,840 that was kind of a metaphor for really wanted to look great 561 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,680 tonight and this is how I look. She always was it was trash with 562 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,320 flash. It was always stuff that didn't 563 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,480 make any sense. And she was could not a 564 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,960 conventional beauty. I mean, she owed a great deal of 565 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,040 Barbra Streisand, who was the 1st of that sort of ilk who came 566 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:53,720 out because she had such an incredible talent that they, and 567 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,800 she actually was a lot prettier than people remember when she 568 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,640 started out. She actually looked pretty good. 569 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:00,600 But that always looked kind of wild. 570 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,640 You know, she said, one critic said she looks like Pandora 571 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,200 opened her box and this was the first thing that flew out. 572 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,840 And Johnny Carson said to her on his talk show, you dressed like 573 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,640 a stolen car. And it was so, I mean, they saw 574 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,480 that. And so the gay fan base 575 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,240 immediately latched onto that. And on the 1st chore that we 576 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:22,640 did, one of the biggest lines we had was we'd play like Tulsa, OK 577 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,360 and say, I hope nobody in this audience needs a comb out 578 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,560 because every hairdresser in the world is in this room tonight. 579 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:31,880 I hope nobody in this town needs a comb out. 580 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,080 But everybody cares because it was that it was their 581 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,240 hairdresser. I mean, it was all, it was very, 582 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,600 it was very gay. And so she's always had that 583 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,040 appeal to people. It never lost that even when she 584 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,520 became a big movie star, oddly enough, later on when she took a 585 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,640 10 year hiatus to become a movie star and have a child. 586 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,360 And then we came back in 93 with a show called Experience the 587 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:56,240 Divine, Thank You. And now before. 588 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:04,680 We field your phone calls adds a little bonus to our viewing 589 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,000 audience. We're going to lift your 590 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:12,280 spirits. Ready girl for the National. 591 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,040 Anthem, A lot of that audience, which by the way, we played 592 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,040 hockey rinks. It was a huge audience. 593 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,760 A lot of them were people who thought she was this nice 594 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,640 suburban lady who sang You Were the Wind Beneath My Wings and 595 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,160 from a distance. And they were kind of shocked 596 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,920 when she came out and did Sophie Tucker jokes and did Rock'n'roll 597 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:32,600 and all that kind of stuff. They got it. 598 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,280 They went for it because she is one of the great performing 599 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,520 personalities ever. I've never seen anything quite 600 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,240 like her. But she always maintained that 601 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,160 attitude, that square attitude. I mean, one of my favourite 602 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:50,000 moments is when the day that the Supreme Court voted for marriage 603 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,600 equality, she was playing Madison Square Garden. 604 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:59,800 And she came out and she said quite a day, isn't it? 605 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,160 And the place exploded. So you knew they were there? 606 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,000 And I do have to say, it's a big deal. 607 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:22,780 It's a big day today. Exploded and then we went right 608 00:34:22,780 --> 00:34:25,420 into Chapel of Love, which was on her first album 609 00:34:41,429 --> 00:34:46,360 and even that was there was a thing about the way she sang the 610 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,719 song. It was this relentless optimism 611 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,280 in the face of, you know, what happens after the wedding, after 612 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,440 the wedding is the marriage not so wonderful sometimes. 613 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,520 And that was you could feel that in her performance and we'll. 614 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:15,920 Never Originally it was just, you 615 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,600 know, girls singing about we're going to the Chapel, we're going 616 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,440 to get married. So that's the kind of 617 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:22,840 interpretation I'm talking about. 618 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:27,200 And that is the kind of thing that a queer audience gets 619 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:31,720 immediately before, maybe before other people. 100% And of course 620 00:35:31,720 --> 00:35:33,600 there's that connection to Laura Niro as well. 621 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,680 And bit of a side note, but just this morning I was watching 622 00:35:36,720 --> 00:35:42,040 Bette actually induct Laura Nero into the Rock and Roll Hall of 623 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,840 Fame, and she gets really emotional herself talking about 624 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,680 her love for Laura Nero, what she meant to her. 625 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,560 And yeah, that was really. Beautiful to watch as well. 626 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:53,880 Yeah. Beth was born in Honolulu. 627 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,560 When she came from Hawaii to New York, it was her late 60s, and 628 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,880 Laura Nero was the thing. And so she saw Laura Nero from 629 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:04,960 the last row in the balcony at the Fillmore. 630 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,840 She was one of those fans and it never left her. 631 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,200 And even when she met her, it was very funny because when you 632 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,280 met Laura Nero, it was kind of like people meeting you now. 633 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,520 You, you were that other person then It's it's great. 634 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,040 So, you know, the stories of the bath houses are also very well 635 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,520 documented, so we don't need to spend too much time on them. 636 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,240 But I will never forget learning that information myself. 637 00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:30,040 Like, you know, reading it online. 638 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,480 I didn't think it was true at first. 639 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:33,880 It just felt too good to be true. 640 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,160 This person who I knew was a gay icon getting their star in 641 00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:42,000 literal gay saunas accompanied by the likes of Barry Manilow. 642 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,160 But the I just picturing you know, we've seen the videos and 643 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,760 the photos of this room she's got in the palm of her hand men 644 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:53,040 sitting around in towels, a steamy room pre HIV AIDS. 645 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:57,640 This very like mythic time. But as you said, as her career 646 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,400 went on straight out of the bath houses, she almost became this 647 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:06,000 vector for mainstream audiences to have this glimpse into queer 648 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,160 culture, whether they realised it or not. 649 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:12,240 So she would, you know, she's a woman, but she's bringing queer 650 00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:15,400 culture to the mainstage, like you said, even up to the hockey 651 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,600 venues after she did her Hollywood stint. 652 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,800 But I love how she's always been this like way in to queer 653 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,360 culture for mainstream audiences. 654 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,520 And they they a lot of the time they probably had no. 655 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,680 Idea it was even happening. And even see, I mean she just 656 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,320 she identified with everybody who, who, who she would meet 657 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,880 afterwards, who, you know, felt they were on the outside looking 658 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:36,400 in of. Course, different generations 659 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,080 have different entry points for bets. 660 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,480 There's like the romantic mainstream 70s after the bath 661 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,320 houses, the Broadway, Vegas, Hollywood eras and now the 662 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,480 gardener of New York. But I am very proud that mine 663 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,360 was hocus pocus. I mean, in that kind of relation 664 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,640 to the Star Wars Hollywood special, kind of somewhat 665 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:59,000 disappointing at the time, but develops this infamy and 666 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,720 actually not infamy with Hocus Pocus, but deep, enormous 667 00:38:02,720 --> 00:38:06,400 popularity with the people who watched it when they were a kid, 668 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,840 who were now adults. And before I knew I was gay, 669 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,400 before I knew I was different, or maybe just when I was 670 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,120 starting to feel a little bit different and othered. 671 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,560 I was obsessed with that video. I would watch that video over 672 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:33,800 and over. And I didn't have the words for 673 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:35,400 any of this. I didn't know what the emotions 674 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,000 were, but I'm sure that I knew that that was a different 675 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,960 leading lady to the other Hollywood films. 676 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:47,200 She was giving this kind of like, queer icon sensibility. 677 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:51,360 It's the flick of a wrist for Winifred Sanderson in that film 678 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,360 where she's a drag queen. She's a drag queen in a Disney 679 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,120 kids film. Yeah, I mean, it was inspired by 680 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,200 an English actor named Alistair SIM who did a bunch of comedies 681 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,040 in the 50s at Ealing, black and white comedies. 682 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,880 And he was in drag frequently. Kind hearts from coronets, I 683 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,480 think Lady killers. Those are his teeth. 684 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,320 The things she insisted on was that she had to have those 685 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,640 Alistair SIM teeth because so much of what it does is you get 686 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,400 away with so much for that. So it was based on a drag 687 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,720 character. So there, you're not far off at 688 00:39:23,720 --> 00:39:25,840 all. Drag characters are just women 689 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,480 in quotes, that's all. They're women, but they're 690 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,560 extended beyond. They're beyond just being human 691 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,640 beings. They are archetypes. 692 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,120 And there was actually, you know, bringing it back to the 693 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,800 music, a specific track that you wanted to talk about the the 694 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,280 track that you picked by BET. What song is it and why? 695 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:53,400 I picked friend. I have have. 696 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,080 Friends it wasn't the first song I heard her sing that was 697 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,480 Shaboom, Shaboom. She was shaking her jugs and 698 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,200 everything. She then she sang Friends, I 699 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,000 think maybe is a closure. And then it became her opener. 700 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:12,520 But it was it read immediately with gay people because. 701 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,080 You got to have friends because so many of them don't have 702 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,760 family. They're back then especially, 703 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:20,600 they were rejected by their families. 704 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,640 And so they created extended families of their friends. 705 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,320 And then when AIDS hit years later and she sang, I had some 706 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,520 friends, but they're gone. Something came and took them 707 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,160 away. Well, something. 708 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,960 Came and took them. Away it it doesn't get more 709 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,320 resonant than that. That was literally what was 710 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,520 happening at the time that we were thick on the ground with 711 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:51,760 people we were losing. So and that track takes me back 712 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:56,000 to when I first heard her and there's it's so it's so joyous. 713 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,160 It is the most joyous. It's the most joyous song. 714 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,680 And then in the middle of it, she gets caught up in it and it 715 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,800 becomes kind of pathetic. It becomes like I had some 716 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,000 friends with her gone. Someone gave it to them away and 717 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,720 which is exactly what happened when she recorded it. 718 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,760 Of course, we had no idea of that, but it was just she. 719 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,000 I think in the initial version there it was referring to family 720 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,200 that that went away because you, you, you revealed who you were 721 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,120 to them. But that was, I think, just a 722 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,680 queer take on it. Everybody else had that. 723 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,520 Everybody else had that. It's an incredible track. 724 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,720 When you shared this selection of e-mail, it kind of 725 00:41:43,720 --> 00:41:46,080 transformed the way I was listening to the song and that, 726 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:47,840 yeah, that lyric. I had some friends, but they're 727 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:49,000 gone. Something came and took them 728 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,840 away. 10 years or whatever, predating HIV AIDS. 729 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:57,200 But during during that epidemic through the 80s and 90s, do you 730 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,000 remember a shift in the way that you heard that song? 731 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,600 Was there a moment where you were like, wow, that that lyric 732 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,920 impacts me differently? Now, well, we started doing AIDS 733 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:10,240 benefits, and she was among the first, she and Joan Rivers and 734 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:15,240 Nell Carter and Madonna were among the first to do AIDS 735 00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:17,000 benefits. And of course, the audiences 736 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,120 there got it immediately. And a whole other relevance for. 737 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,360 Yeah, I mean, she had, she had taken it out of the show. 738 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,280 And then it always, it came back in the kind of thing that was, 739 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,200 you know, you can't ignore it. And when you think about certain 740 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,000 special friends that that have come and gone and that you've 741 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,760 lost, is there anyone who springs to mind from that 742 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,720 period? Oh my God, I mean, I can't look 743 00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:41,840 at that quilt anymore because there are so many people I know. 744 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,040 But in in certainly in bets terms, there were so many people 745 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,360 who we started with us. My original writing 746 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:52,440 collaborators, Bill Hennessy and Jerry Blatt died of AIDS Joe 747 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,520 Leighton, who I mentioned earlier and wound up staging all 748 00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:59,280 of Betts big shows, Clams on the half shell and the divine Miss 749 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,400 Millennium. So they're you know, I got I got 750 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,480 a lot of them. Like if I start singling them 751 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,320 out, you know, I'll just I'll I'll I'll be Jabba the Hutt with 752 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,800 a reduced to a puzzle, hard words and Bette Midler. 753 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,280 Oh my God. One more Star Wars reference for 754 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,160 the road. When did you, Bruce? 755 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:16,840 When did you most recently work with that? 756 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,960 I didn't work with her, but she had her 80th birthday party and 757 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,440 I, I, I was kind of a toastmaster. 758 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,560 But most recently, listen, we, we haven't done a big show in 10 759 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,160 years. The last show was called Divine 760 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:35,160 Intervention and we did it in 2014 because it's too much work. 761 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,800 I mean, in that show we had to, we had to jettison the mermaid 762 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,960 because she just couldn't wheel herself around and dance in the 763 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:43,960 tails. It's and saying it's too 764 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,040 exhausting. So we had her, we had a little 765 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:51,080 funeral for her in the show where she said she was swimming. 766 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:54,280 She was swimming to England to play the Palladium and forgot to 767 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,480 put her contacts in and hit an iceberg and sank like a stone. 768 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,880 So, but you know, there's always, there is always 769 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:03,640 something. I mean things now are like like 770 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,040 1 offs like appearances honouring somebody or, or 771 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,640 something like that. And of course we, we do work on, 772 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,680 on Winifred Anderson, which is Hocus Pocus 3 is now in the 773 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,640 works. We do a dialogue pass on it 774 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:20,200 because we came up with the dialogue and Hocus Pocus because 775 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,200 Hocus Pocus was a very funny script written by two guys. 776 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,080 And when that applied what what she wanted to do with it and she 777 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:32,840 was at Disney, we had to kind of do that dialogue because it was 778 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,480 she speaks her own so in her 16th century language. 779 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:39,840 And that that the sequel came about 30 years later because 780 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,280 people like you had grown up watching it on video 781 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,320 incessantly. And the people at Disney said, 782 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,760 well, we don't know. It was, you know, it didn't work 783 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,320 30 years ago. That's because they released it 784 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:55,120 in July, which is like, you know, not exactly high 785 00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:59,800 Halloween. So we put a number in the her, I 786 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:01,480 put a spell on you. She came out 787 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:20,800 and the moment the audience heard the opening chords of that 788 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:25,720 song Explosion and sitting with the Disney people, the Disney 789 00:45:25,720 --> 00:45:30,240 people are kind of going, this may be bigger than we think. 790 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,840 And that was how Hopeless Book was too finally hit the ground. 791 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:39,120 And so and it was gigantic on on Disney Plus that now they would 792 00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,760 like to do this as a theatrical release that then goes to Disney 793 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,000 Plus after, you know, like a three-week window or something. 794 00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:47,840 Wow. So I did not. 795 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:51,400 Forever to get off the ground, you know? 796 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:56,800 Thank you for staying close to Winifred's powerful words, 797 00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,040 Bruce. It makes me feel better to know 798 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:03,480 that you're in the room now. You end your book while your 799 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:07,720 audiobooks, always listening to your words with a reminder that 800 00:46:07,720 --> 00:46:10,200 you have built a career on saying yes. 801 00:46:10,720 --> 00:46:14,280 And I love that philosophy because, you know, abundance 802 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,440 attracts abundance. And when you say yes, so many 803 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,600 things happen and not all of them are amazing, but things 804 00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,880 just do happen. And things don't happen if you 805 00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,040 don't say yes, you know, as obvious as that sounds. 806 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,360 So I wanted to acknowledge that, and I wanted to thank you for 807 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:33,480 saying yes to this podcast. Yes, just like Liza saying say 808 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:38,240 yes. Bruce Valanche, you are queer 809 00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:39,680 and thank you very much for your tracks. 810 00:46:39,720 --> 00:46:41,360 Thank you so much. See you. 811 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:54,720 See you again on there. I hope you enjoyed listening to 812 00:46:54,720 --> 00:46:56,960 that chat as much as I did making it. 813 00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,200 You can find Bruce's memoir, It Seemed like a bad idea at the 814 00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,360 time. Wherever you get your books, you 815 00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,000 can find the pod on Instagram and you can e-mail me at 816 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:10,000 tracksofourqueers@gmail.com. Tracks of Our Queers is produced 817 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,160 and presented by me. Andy got on Marajorie Land and 818 00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:14,400 I'll see you next time.