1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,200 Hello and welcome to Tracks of Our Queers. 2 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,560 My name is Andy Gott, and each episode I chat to a fascinating 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,880 queer person about their relationship with music via one 4 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,560 song, one album, and one artist to have each soundtrack their 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,200 life. Some of the conversations you'll 6 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,560 hear over the next few weeks have been gathering dust in the 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,960 vault for a while, just waiting for their time to shine, and I 8 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,400 can't wait to get them out. This first episode, however, was 9 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,920 recorded just a couple of weeks ago in Sydney, Australia. 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:42,000 Travis Alabanza has been on my list of dream guests and I know 11 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,040 I've said this a few times but I really do mean it. 12 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,720 Since starting The Pot, Travis is an award-winning writer, 13 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,120 performer and theatre maker and they are the youngest recipient 14 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,400 of the Artist in Residency programme at the Tate Galleries. 15 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,600 Travis has toured the globe multiple times, sold out the 16 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,320 South Bank Centre and has spoken at Oxford and Harvard 17 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,960 Universities. Just to say the least, they 18 00:01:05,960 --> 00:01:09,320 fascinate me because of the wisdom and the clarity of 19 00:01:09,320 --> 00:01:12,440 thought that they possess for someone so relatively young. 20 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:16,400 And I suppose that I'm always a little envious of anyone younger 21 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,240 than me with buckets of talent. But since Travis burst out onto 22 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,200 the London cabaret scene in their early 20s, they've gripped 23 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,920 audiences with captivating, truthful storytelling. 24 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:29,360 And that magic is very special. To be near. 25 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:32,760 Last year I had a beautiful conversation with Travis's 26 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,200 friend Saba Chowdhury, and you should definitely go check out 27 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:36,600 that episode if you haven't heard it yet. 28 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,760 So when I saw that Travis would be heading down Under, I asked 29 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:45,160 Saba if he'd put us in touch and thrillingly, they said yes, but 30 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:47,640 only if we could record in person. 31 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:49,280 You. Now you may or may not know 32 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,720 this, but I currently live in the Snowy Mountains of 33 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:53,440 Australia. Right now there's not much snow 34 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:55,800 here, but there are mountains and it's a beautiful part of the 35 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,520 continent, arguably on the more remote side. 36 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,680 So I'm eternally grateful for the Internet gods for enabling 37 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,520 me to chat to remarkable queer people around the world from 38 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:07,760 this little hidden away corner I live in. 39 00:02:08,039 --> 00:02:12,400 But there is truly nothing like an in person conversation. 40 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,920 It's just the real deal. Travis is in Australia to 41 00:02:16,920 --> 00:02:19,920 perform the 10th anniversary production of their show 42 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,080 Burgers, the winner of the Total Theatre Award at the Edinburgh 43 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:25,960 Festival. The show has been a global 44 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:30,200 sellout sensation since 2018 and relives the night that someone 45 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,480 threw a burger at them with a transphobic slur. 46 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:36,880 I'm yet to actually see it myself, but I'm headed to one of 47 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,840 their Sydney performances at The Carriage Works from the 7th to 48 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:43,520 the 18th of January before it heads to Melbourne at the Malt 49 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,280 House Theatre from the 21st to the 31st of January. 50 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,400 Tickets are still available for some of the shows, but if you 51 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,480 are in Sydney or Melbourne, snap them up right now before word of 52 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:57,480 mouth does its inevitable thing. If this is your first time 53 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,720 listening, Tracks of Our Queers is firmly and proudly A1 Queer 54 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:03,800 band. No studio, no production team, 55 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,120 no sound engineer yet. So if you enjoy this episode, 56 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,000 you can buy me a coffee. LinkedIn this episode show notes 57 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:12,600 in 2026. I'd love to spend more time on 58 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,520 the show as it gives me so much joy and your support enables me 59 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,160 to just be a tiny bit less reliant on my day job. 60 00:03:18,920 --> 00:03:20,840 As I'm sure you know, the hustle is real. 61 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,400 One last thing, there's a little saucy language here and there, 62 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,440 especially in the second-half of this episode. 63 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,880 So maybe it's not the best to have on while there's younger 64 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:34,120 ears around. OK, over to Travis. 65 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,320 Wow. Travis Elabanza, welcome to 66 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:45,680 Tracks of our Queers. Good day. 67 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,840 And you've flown a long way just for this interview, I believe. 68 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,760 Rumour has it I did actually catch the the British Airways 69 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,240 flight to be here just for that reason for travel on my work 70 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,800 visa was podcast. And don't forget to send me your 71 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,320 invoice on the way out on the flight. 72 00:03:58,320 --> 00:03:59,560 Yes absolutely. Thank you. 73 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:01,360 Love supporting independent queer travellers? 74 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,160 Please tell me about your earliest musical memory. 75 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,680 It's so interesting because there's no Lube on this. 76 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,840 We're going straight in and I wanted to be cool and start at 77 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:14,960 14, which is when I think it all got good. 78 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,760 My earliest musical memory is that I forced my mum to get all 79 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:34,720 of Bewitched posters for me. When I was like 6 or 7 I became 80 00:04:34,840 --> 00:04:38,040 obsessed with Bewitched at the Irish pop band. 81 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,640 You look like me, Dad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 82 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:46,080 And I became sass and and my mum couldn't really understand why 83 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,480 out of all the girl bands I was. Obsessed with these? 84 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,680 It's a good question, Mum. And I don't have the answer 85 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:53,760 except an affinity to Irish people. 86 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,480 Maybe Double denim. Yeah, double denim. 87 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:58,400 Yeah, exactly the kind of Irish dancing. 88 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,360 And I forced my mum. And then for my birthday, she 89 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:04,280 got me a signed Bewitched poster instead of concert tickets. 90 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,320 And I want to say that I was grateful, but I actually think I 91 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,080 just wanted concert tickets. But my earliest music memory is 92 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,320 replaying that on cassette over and over and over again for 93 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,560 months and months and months. Beyond the monster that is Say 94 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,520 La Vie, what holds a special place in your heart? 95 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,360 I want to say that I remember any other song, but I was 5. 96 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:27,920 And I think the tape was for Say La Vie. 97 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,800 But what it did is start like this whole kind of snowball 98 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:32,680 effect where is it was six and seven. 99 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:34,880 My family is really musical and we play music a lot in the 100 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,400 house. I was trying to rebel against 101 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,720 the music I was hearing, and so I became hooked. 102 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,160 I'm sure so many queer people on this podcast say hooked on pop 103 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,000 and all these things. So it went from Bewitched to the 104 00:05:47,000 --> 00:06:00,680 Nelly Furtado. The Nelly Furtado led to Fergie. 105 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,200 Fergie brings you back down to Jamelia. 106 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,880 Jamelia, the cornerstone of. You say brings back down, I say 107 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,120 rises. Rises to Jamelia yeah, yeah, 108 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:19,960 yeah, exactly. You better stop. 109 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,600 Birmingham icon. Birmingham icon. 110 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,400 And so that was kind of my like those were my pillars and six or 111 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,760 seven was just like. And because also, did you ever 112 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:30,880 play Sing Star when you were a kid? 113 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,320 I played a dodgy like BB version of it. 114 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:35,800 I didn't have the official version. 115 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,680 Understand I had the official version much to the penalties of 116 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,800 my hearing and they had Jamelia stop on there. 117 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,240 I'm seven, I've gone through nothing of the sword and I'm 118 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:50,160 there singing it as if I have been through 7 heart breaks. 119 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,920 I'm like wow, I really feel it. Meanwhile things does like fail, 120 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:59,080 fail, fail. End GameStop. 121 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,160 You say that you were. Turning against what you were 122 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,320 hearing, which of course is a rite of passage, but what was 123 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,200 your mum listening to? Incredible music and that's the 124 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:09,520 thing, you always got to do it. You have to go away to then come 125 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,880 back and realise that your mum and your brother had an older 126 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:13,720 brother too. I have an older brother as well 127 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:18,040 who also was really into music and my mum was listening to like 128 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:22,560 lots of soul, Motown, jazz, a lot of Macy Grey. 129 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:31,840 Goodbye. A lot of Jill Scott spoiler 130 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:37,200 alerts, a lot of Erykah Badu really just like great, amazing 131 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,240 music. And then my brother was like a 132 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:44,320 real hip hop like connoisseur. And so at the time I remember we 133 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,040 as my mum, I was so jealous. My mum left me for babysitter to 134 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:53,760 take my brother to Kanye West. Of course, before you will come. 135 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,640 And so yeah, that kind of music was floating around in the 136 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:58,040 house. A lot of soul and Motown as 137 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,440 well, like a lot of Diana Ross and The Supremes. 138 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,560 I also think the Black happy birthday song is important to 139 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,440 get OK rather than the typical one We would never have. 140 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,680 The regular happy birthday song OK The black happy birthday 141 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,760 song. OK, is this my learning moment? 142 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,080 Should we have it? I I don't want you to feel 143 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:20,080 responsible for educating me. Let's lean in. 144 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:22,640 I'm surprised you haven't seen it. 145 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,040 So many people put it as the soundtrack for their black 146 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,480 square in 2020. That's where I know it because I 147 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:31,520 did that. We'll insert here instead of me 148 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:35,600 singing, but it's happy birthday to Yeah, exactly. 149 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,600 But we call that in our house a black happy birthday song. 150 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:43,600 Right. Happy birthday. 151 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,560 Happy. Birthday. 152 00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:52,280 Can you please tell me about a song in your own back catalogue? 153 00:08:52,920 --> 00:09:00,240 All you need is a shoe. Oh, bear. 154 00:09:00,680 --> 00:09:04,440 You said nothing was off limits. You got me, girl. 155 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:08,440 Very good. Someone's been doing their 156 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,200 homework. So before becoming a writer and 157 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,080 I it's maybe it's 76. Don't quote me. 158 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:19,040 Look at the book. I was singing all the time. 159 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,240 You know, when someone fixed it up and you're like, oh, shit. 160 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:25,680 Well, yeah. OK, so all you need is to see. 161 00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:28,400 I'm guessing you got. I've got. 162 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,120 Hang Wolf Yeah. Well, names were changed for the 163 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,440 book, but from none of the above, my book, which is not a 164 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,040 plug I mentioned, you know, I'm trying to set the scene of me as 165 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,920 a young person in this book. I travel through different ages 166 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:42,760 and look at gender nonconformity throughout my life. 167 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,440 My earliest memory of my gender nonconformity that felt clear 168 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,640 enough to put in the book was that I at the time, you know, I 169 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:50,920 grew up just me and my mum and my brother. 170 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,600 And we'd have, like, lodges come in to our house as a way to, you 171 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:56,840 know, my mum could, like, pay the bills. 172 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,240 And we had this amazing one called Hang Wolf. 173 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:01,680 Yes. That is his name in the book. 174 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,760 And he was amazing. And I'm sure I can say this now. 175 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,400 I also realised that I didn't put this in the book, but he was 176 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:09,280 so fit. Yeah. 177 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,440 He's just like, muscly, like, German guy that was like, 178 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:14,880 bodybuilding. And I was obsessed with him. 179 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,840 I wouldn't leave him alone. I used to make up songs all the 180 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,920 time and phrases that I would constantly be singing and put on 181 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,120 shows in the living room. And one of them was all you need 182 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,000 is a shoe about red high heel. And you know, I mean, the 183 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:29,560 writing's on the wall at this point. 184 00:10:29,560 --> 00:10:32,480 And you were what age? I want to say seven, yeah, 185 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,480 definitely primary school. Definitely not like upper into 186 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,360 year 6 because I still had a patch on my eyes. 187 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:38,800 So I patch my I still had a patch. 188 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:43,840 So either like 6-7 or eight. What fascinates me is you 189 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:49,040 instantly understood a part of queer language without even 190 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,120 knowing what queer is like. This is there to need. 191 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,360 A red shoe is the twist of the hand. 192 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,160 It's like the unscrewing of a lipstick. 193 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,960 It's so. Cliche, it hurts and I was 194 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,120 assigned cross dresser at birth, clearly, but you know, it's 195 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:05,680 really nice. I mentioned the story in the 196 00:11:05,680 --> 00:11:08,040 book for loads of reasons. I think I was really conscious 197 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,720 to mention narratives that weren't just negative. 198 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,760 And I think it's really easy when we talk about family and 199 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:16,640 upbringing. I know that in the book I talk 200 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,560 so much about growing up poor, but I didn't want people to 201 00:11:19,560 --> 00:11:21,520 think that that meant I grow up sad. 202 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,960 And my mum was incredible. She is such a great mum, but she 203 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:28,720 was amazing when I was a queer child without me knowing I was a 204 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,440 queer child. I know how lucky I am for that. 205 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,560 But I think that example is so hilarious because I could 206 00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:38,080 imagine other family members not responding the way she did. 207 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,240 She was like, go in the living room, put on the shoe. 208 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,040 It meant I had no idea that it was so queer and weird. 209 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,360 I was just like, I've made a hit song, you know, I don't remember 210 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,760 how I do not. All you need is a shoe. 211 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:51,960 Yeah, that was. Yeah. 212 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:53,920 There we go. I didn't want to force you to do 213 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,160 that. I had a feeling you'd volunteer 214 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,840 it yourself. Come in soon to Spotify. 215 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,640 We are going to skip ahead now to that 14 year old point where 216 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:05,240 your first experience was the nightlife. 217 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,080 I've heard you talk about going out in Bristol as a fairly 218 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,120 youngish team, probably younger than, well, I wish I'd been 219 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,760 going out at that age. But yeah, what prompted you to 220 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:15,400 be going out? Who were you going out with? 221 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:16,920 What were those first experiences like? 222 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:21,360 Yeah, I loved this podcast about music because I feel like often 223 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:23,640 I don't get to talk about something that actually, like, 224 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,760 inspires so much of me. I didn't grow up going to the 225 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,400 theatre or reading, like I did read lots of books but not like 226 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:31,360 thinking I could be an all, you know. 227 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,240 I'm not one of these artists that was like I've dreamed of 228 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,160 being a theatre maker, I've dreamed of because I didn't know 229 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:36,280 that job existed. Yep. 230 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:41,200 The only art I really saw was TV and music and I think Bristol. 231 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:42,960 Have you been to Bristol? Love Bristol, love Bristol. 232 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:47,720 It's got such a music backbone, you know, and also prime skin. 0 233 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,080 Skins was on the TV and we thought we were in it, you know, 234 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,320 we thought we were main characters of Skins. 235 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,520 Yes, we had a cringy inside joke, me and my friends, like 236 00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:07,560 we'd go out and out and then like whoever had the biggest 237 00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:10,480 thing happened with, like, it's yours, it's yours. 238 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,240 And I feel like that really pumped a lot of my going out. 239 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,120 And, you know, I've got complicated feelings about going 240 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,280 out so young. But ultimately I think speed a 241 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,760 lot of things up, good and bad. But ultimately I lived in the 242 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,680 suburbs of Bristol and then I found friends that lived in the 243 00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:26,920 inner city. You didn't need ID and you could 244 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,480 just go about and you know, Bristol, you know, one minute 245 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,920 you're hearing like incredible, like reggae dub, the next you're 246 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,000 hearing great house and techno. Went to Glastonbury for the 247 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,160 first time the music festival at 15 for free because. 248 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,640 Bristol's so close. Bristol's so close and everyone 249 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:43,320 in their mums has someone that can get you in. 250 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,680 And at that time you found someone that had a rose quartz 251 00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:49,120 crystal and they could get you into Glastonbury. 252 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:53,040 And I knew a few people with rose quartz crystals and I 253 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,360 remember going to Glastonbury at 15 and being like, oh, and it 254 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,680 really felt like you were seeing this whole other world. 255 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:02,400 And I didn't know any of the words for it. 256 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:06,120 I didn't know what artist was, I didn't know that these people 257 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:10,240 were performers or whatever. I was obsessed with music and 258 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,520 then I just got hooked. I was going to gigs all the 259 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:14,880 time. I was just wanting to watch 260 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,120 music non-stop. I became obsessed with all types 261 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,160 of music, but namely, like, it was weird, you know, being in 262 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:23,880 Bristol and meeting all these people. 263 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,280 I got quite obsessed with folk and indie music. 264 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,560 And that felt a bit rebellious because I was growing up in a 265 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,360 household that like, predominantly were listening to 266 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:33,800 black music. And not that there's not indie 267 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,440 black music, but at the time, you know, the British indie 268 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,400 movement of like 2000 and what, 78910? 269 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:41,880 Oh, it's white. It's white boys. 270 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:43,600 You know, it's white boys, white girls. 271 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,320 So you were seeing someone like Newton Faulkner as subversive? 272 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:54,560 I was more like Kaiser Chiefs of punk, Mystery Jets. 273 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,120 I was like every indie Tumblr, kids, rite of passage, thinking 274 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,240 that you were the most unique person to ever exist. 275 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,280 But it was like Laura Marling, Johnny Flynn, Mystery Jets. 276 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:06,760 Who else was I obsessed with then? 277 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,360 The pop version of that felt like at the time, Ellie 278 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,520 Goulding's first album felt like you were being She's not best. 279 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,160 She's got that, hasn't she? She's Hereford turned Bristol. 280 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,640 I thought that there was that real boom at that time. 281 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:27,920 Even Lily, I mean, I know she's having research now, but Lily 282 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:31,240 Allen at that time as well. It was that time when I think 283 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,640 alternative was in pop, yes. You know, and it's interesting 284 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,400 because people coming to Lily Allen now, you're like, oh, 285 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,840 actually when she first came about, that kind of pop star was 286 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,320 you could be a pop. Star if you were also 287 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,280 alternative than indie, whereas it feels like pop's gone, it's 288 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,680 on its own journey now where you can't. 289 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,960 There's waves, there's cycles and there's the cycle of what's 290 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:53,800 going on in the culture, but then there's the cycle of what's 291 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,040 going on with you with your age. I think there's a really 292 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,480 interesting journey that a lot of people go on where you're 293 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,760 figuring out your own taste. What do you like? 294 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,320 You might be inspired by siblings or friends or whatever 295 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,040 you think you've found your taste in a particular genre. 296 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,080 This could be for you, maybe that like indie moment, but then 297 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,000 you kind of are like, well, actually I kind of like lots of 298 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,760 different different things at once. 299 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,200 That's a really great feeling to know you can carry all of the 300 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,240 different things It's. Beautiful, I feel like in my 301 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,000 teams always I didn't have that my teams. 302 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:24,040 I was really trying to stamp myself as like quite cringely as 303 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,360 I'm sure so many teams are like I'm alternative and it felt 304 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,680 really important to like dye my hair leopard pet leopard print, 305 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,520 bleach in my hair, multiple piercings, tattoos. 306 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:36,720 I now regret. I was definitely trying to be 307 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,880 like, don't look at me how you think to look at me making 308 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,200 costumes. This was Lady Gaga's first 309 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,240 album. I was watching pop artists make 310 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,960 spectacles of themselves and I became obsessed with that. 311 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,360 Sometime this beach is sick. I want to take a ride on your 312 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,840 disco stick. Don't think too much, just fuss 313 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:58,920 that stick. I want to take a ride on your 314 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,920 disco stick. I would go to concerts to watch 315 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,839 how people make. Spectacles of that horse. 316 00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:07,800 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think she was a very 317 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,560 important artist at that turning point of kind of we'd had a few 318 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:16,520 years of authenticity and guitars and being a quotation 319 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,720 marks real and she was like, actually fuck all of that. 320 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:21,440 Like who cares about authenticity? 321 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,079 And yeah, very important. OK, the other question in this 322 00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:27,760 section is I have heard you on podcasts. 323 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:29,960 You've done your. Homework. 324 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,000 I've been bingeing you for days. Oh, no, You talked really 325 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,400 beautifully about one of my favourite topics, which is 326 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:40,480 connecting with older queers, I want to say queer elders, but 327 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,680 I'm thinking people who were just like 10-15 years older than 328 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,360 me but could be older. And this is in the context of 329 00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:47,560 nightlife. I heard you talk once about how 330 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,800 important it was for you, nightlife as a space to connect 331 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,400 with older parts of the queer community. 332 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,720 And I just wondered, in bringing it back to music, do you have 333 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,400 any older queer mentors or friends who've introduced you to 334 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,880 particular musicians or genres that you really cherish? 335 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,000 Yeah, definitely. I mean, even just from the 336 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,440 songs, say lip sync, I'm smiling because I'm currently in an edit 337 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,320 suite for a short film I'm making and in it I have a 338 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,800 legendary who is. I'm sorry, I'm going to say it. 339 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,040 Miss Kim, you are a Quivelder in the London and further afield 340 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,320 scene, and I'm sorry you are now. 341 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:24,320 I'm sorry, I don't care, but now you actually do Just count as 342 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,680 one, Miss Kim, a glorious 1, and she's earned it. 343 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,440 I think about her because I started performing in nightclubs 344 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,960 at about 1718, and luckily I would meet all these elder 345 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,280 performers that would show me kind of the way. 346 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,680 Not all of them, right? Most of them are like, we'll see 347 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:41,440 if you're here in two years, like whatever. 348 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:46,040 But Miss Kim, David Hoyle, I don't count Scotty as an elder, 349 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,320 but Scotty was older than me. Scotty as well at the time was 350 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,200 doing more club work and they would all be showing me the 351 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,400 ropes. And I remember Miss Kim used to 352 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:59,200 do really like old Donna Summer songs. 353 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,480 And I had no idea who Donna Summer was. 354 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,400 And I would look at her doing Donna Summer and I'd be like, Oh 355 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:12,040 my God, who is this? Insert a deep dive to this girl. 356 00:19:20,770 --> 00:19:22,890 You know, I wouldn't say David Hoyer was known for like, 357 00:19:23,010 --> 00:19:25,370 putting music in this thing. You know, he's his own stuff. 358 00:19:25,730 --> 00:19:29,000 But even watching the aesthetics of who? 359 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,000 So David Hoyle led me to Derek Jarman, and then Derek Jarman 360 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:33,640 opens you to all the music there. 361 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,480 Then suddenly I'm like, wow, I can't say I don't like rock or 362 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,120 brick pop. I thought that was a genre I 363 00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:40,320 don't like. So I think to be an artist is to 364 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,400 just be constantly curious. And I think music is endless for 365 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:45,000 that. It's. 366 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,080 So exciting. One of my favourite things is 367 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:50,800 the knowledge that I don't know everything and I know a lot 368 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:52,880 about music, but I haven't even scratched the surface. 369 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:54,280 It's. Never ending. 370 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,240 And when you're in the mood, you can find someone and they'll 371 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,400 tell, tell you they're like deep dives. 372 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,960 And suddenly you're like, Oh my God, amazing, you know? 373 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,040 What role does music play in your life? 374 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:07,800 Practise today? When are you listening? 375 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,600 When are you not listening? Can you work with music on? 376 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:11,840 I mean, I listen to music everyday. 377 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,120 It's not my job. So that's what's really nice. 378 00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:15,560 It's an art form. That is not my job. 379 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:17,600 I Can't Sing. I would trade everything in the 380 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,960 world to be able to sing. I wanted to be a singer so bad, 381 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,880 but I am tone deaf. It's a hobby where I just love 382 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,320 listening to it creatively in performance. 383 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,200 It's really involved in my practise. 384 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,560 When I'm making a show, I will make a soundtrack first. 385 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,080 I will think about what songs. I will get a lot of visual 386 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,520 inspiration from music artists first. 387 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,360 I would say in my writing, it's less there to be honest. 388 00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:44,440 I can't write to music. I wish I could, but definitely 389 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,720 when creating performance pieces or theatre or anything with an 390 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,680 aesthetic and anything where the visual world is really on the 391 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,680 surface. So for me, that's like, if an 392 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,800 audience are going to see the world, I need to know what songs 393 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,320 are part of the tone. And often when I'm working with 394 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,160 actors or for theatres, there is playlist to all my theatre shows 395 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,880 that have come out. And that was both the music that 396 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,920 you hear in the foyer that I'm all that I'm always part of that 397 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,160 conversation. I don't let the God, I don't 398 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,920 leave it to the theatres. And also it's a playlist 399 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,480 inspired by the tracks so that any person coming in could 400 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,760 listen to songs that might be a character's world or it might be 401 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,240 the visuals and try and build that distinction. 402 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:25,360 You know I. Think it's something that a 403 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:28,120 playlist does it really well and storytelling and like a really 404 00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:31,840 great DJ, That set will be telling a story start to finish 405 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,520 and you either love it or you're not really bothered by it. 406 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,200 But those who do connect with it are like, oh, I can see what 407 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,240 this person's doing here. They're actually telling a bit 408 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:40,760 of a story. It's very exciting. 409 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:42,360 Yeah, and it's just another layer, do you know? 410 00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:45,200 And I think it's a colour as well for me, like, Oh my God, 411 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,680 you sound so wanky when you talk about your process, isn't it? 412 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,160 It's another colour and a texture. 413 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,720 It's a play, bitch. But I do think that making 414 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:56,280 theatre is kind of a retro decision of me in the sense 415 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,640 that, you know, I think we're fighting for theatre to feel 416 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,200 current in this time. I would say that it is sometimes 417 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,440 a navel gazing exercise. I don't think it's one of the 418 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,720 art forms that has done well with modernising. 419 00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:11,160 I think it struggles to keep up honestly. 420 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:12,680 Interesting. I say that as someone that 421 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,160 primarily works in the form. All right, Travis, I asked you 422 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,480 to pick a track, an album, and an artist. 423 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,480 Before we dive in, how was that process for you? 424 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,560 So hard. What the hell, You put me 425 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,080 through it. I wasn't going to send you an 426 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:26,800 invoice, but now I'm definitely going to go. 427 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,800 But it was really fun as well, because I feel like this answer 428 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,040 could have went loads of different ways. 429 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:34,920 Yeah, of course, you know, you've obviously got more than 430 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:36,840 one favourite track, more than one favourite album. 431 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,120 I did go there, but there's reasons for them. 432 00:22:39,120 --> 00:22:41,440 I think you put in the prompt something about it linking to 433 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,800 queer identity and our journey, and I think that made me feel 434 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,560 really different to like, what necessarily is my favourite 435 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,520 album, this or my favourite track? 436 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,800 Two out of the three picks aren't my favourite ever, but if 437 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,440 I think about my journey of queerness, they're quite 438 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,960 important. Let's go the track you picked. 439 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:03,080 Please tell me what it is and why the. 440 00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:05,720 Track I picked was bit bling bit burger. 441 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:07,400 Is that actually the title? Yeah. 442 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:08,800 And can you say that one more time, please? 443 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,280 Bit bling, bit burger. Feels good to say. 444 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:23,680 Burger The Big bling burger. How do you describe bitling? 445 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,760 There's obviously the obvious reasons why I pick this. 446 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,600 We'll get to that, but maybe I'll set the tone bit. 447 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:34,440 Berger is very much of the Myspace era of music, Internet 448 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,240 music, you know, maybe bitling bit. 449 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,240 So Charlie XCX could brat? Who knows? 450 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,320 I've that is a quote I've heard before. 451 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:46,080 Actually, I don't know how big Bitling was, because to me she 452 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,080 was huge. And I think that's what struck 453 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,600 when I struggled to think about Bitling when I was 1415. 454 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:57,000 When I first heard this track, I was like, she's a pop star. 455 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,800 You later learn how being an artist works. 456 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:00,880 It's like she had amazing Internet presence. 457 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,680 I guess this song is of that age where people would blogging, 458 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,640 internetting, myspacing at the same time, that kind of Internet 459 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,760 graphics, that visuals. It was something I heard when I 460 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,280 was 15 and was just like, lol. Me and my friend Caris used to 461 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,840 laugh about it and we'd follow her on Myspace or online and be 462 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:18,000 like, she's so cool. You don't want the chair. 463 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:23,640 You don't want the chicken 1. You want the best bugger. 464 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:25,240 You want the best? Bugger. 465 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,480 Five years later I start writing the show Burgers. 466 00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:34,040 That song was so fundamental to me because it was useful to have 467 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,640 a song that mentioned burgers and was silly and funny, but 468 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,920 more so the aesthetic of her was exactly what I was trying to 469 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,280 capture in the theatre world. I knew the Burgers was meant to 470 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,840 be serious in tone, which is not her song, but irreverent in 471 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,880 colour, aesthetic, popness. And also I was trying at the 472 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,720 time when I was making burgers, no theatres wanted to do it. 473 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:57,760 It wasn't commissioned as a play. 474 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,600 It didn't. It was like me building it with 475 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,720 a producer to make work in a warehouse. 476 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,680 I was coming at it not knowing about theatre but I knew I 477 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,840 wanted to make it an Internet like thing and so I started 478 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:14,040 studying pop stars and people that had made work about 479 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,880 Internet and was like how can I do this? 480 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,440 And I remember sitting down with people and I said I'm really 481 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,720 sorry this is going to sound wild but I need £1000 to make 482 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,320 the promo images and video. Now even in theatre now when you 483 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,400 have a big budget, 1000 lbs on a poster is never the thing 484 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,680 because theatre just don't spend that kind of money on those 485 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:33,800 things. And they said what? 486 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,400 And I go no no no, trust me if we make a popping image and a 487 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,120 popping thing the rest will happen. 488 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,040 And bipling became really focal as a mood reference for what I 489 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,680 wanted it to feel like, which is why I built these burger hats. 490 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,000 Yes, I'm in the original promo video. 491 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,640 I'm in this housewife video cutting all these like, fake 492 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,320 emoji burgers. I wore like, emoji gloves, all 493 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,240 these things. And this song was like, really 494 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,200 fundamental as part of that aesthetic push. 495 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,080 I'd say you stretched that 1000 lbs quite far actually. 496 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:02,600 Yeah, I mean. They got return on investment. 497 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,280 Everyone was doubting me. Then burgers premiered in Dazed 498 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,080 and Vogue and all those places, so I think it worked, yeah. 499 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,200 I want to dive into burgers, but before we do, let's wrap up. 500 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:13,880 Bipling. Because what did you think of 501 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,840 bipling? I completely understand what you 502 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,320 just described around the Myspace Internet. 503 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,040 Discovering some obscure pop star with your friend and 504 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,320 finding out everything you could online, the blog's status 505 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,640 updates, the obscure photos. I totally understand that. 506 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,560 I did do but Googling. On what's who pays? 507 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,080 Who pays the bipling? It's. 508 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,760 Giving sort of nepo baby. You can. 509 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,400 Tell she's still blogging. The blog is up to date. 510 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,240 It's new updates from last week. What on a website? 511 00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:47,240 On a website? It's that very 512 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:52,320 aestheticneonblogspot.com. Of course our baby still has 513 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,480 time to still run a blog. Read the Bibling or. 514 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:55,840 Maybe we'll put this in. What? 515 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,800 Read it? Think she's racist? 516 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:00,840 No, we can put it in liability wise. 517 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,040 She might. She sounds like someone that 518 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,000 could afford to tell you. I think she could afford to. 519 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,960 And end edit. OK, the PC Music, the Charlie 520 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,320 XCX community, they have firmly turned their back on her while 521 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,160 acknowledging what? There was like, actual beef. 522 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:17,800 Yeah, I'll send you the link so people acknowledge she has bops 523 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,880 and bips because of these possible racism connections. 524 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,720 Reddit advises that you illegally export her tracks if 525 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,360 you want to listen to them so she doesn't get the royalties. 526 00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:28,760 That's. So good for me to know and as 527 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,680 someone that maybe has made-up 98% of her royalties in the last 528 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,200 10 years, I should really understand that. 529 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,960 I do think it's interesting, the Internet music aesthetic 530 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,440 pipeline of where certain cultures get their aesthetic 531 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,240 from and how at the beginning of the Internet, it actually links 532 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,120 to me as 15 trying to be something. 533 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,320 Ultimately, you know, when you're young, you look at these 534 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,720 people on Myspace being like they're over here, but we're all 535 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:54,720 just like trying to portray an image. 536 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,800 We're all doing it. And maybe bipling found that in 537 00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,160 interesting ways. Yes. 538 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:00,880 And did she sleep with Boris Johnson? 539 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,520 You have told me more about bipling than I even have 540 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,920 remembered. But I just think the line, I 541 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:09,920 mean, you kind of know there's some problematic undertones when 542 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,800 the line is you're a food addict if you're already thinking about 543 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,920 your second burger before you've eaten your first. 544 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,840 Ya ya, you're a food addict if you're already thinking about 545 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,000 your second bit burger before you've eaten your first first. 546 00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:26,040 So, burgers, you are in Australia. 547 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,160 Actually, when this episode comes out, you'll be in the 548 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:29,240 middle of your run. Really. 549 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,600 Yeah. Yeah, hopefully before. 550 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,120 Come on, Come on. If you're hearing this now and 551 00:28:34,360 --> 00:28:37,360 we're in the middle of the run, go and buy 6 tickets per day. 552 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,200 One of the many things I find fascinating about burgers is 553 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,120 that you're returning to it almost 10 years after you made 554 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,320 it. We're doing some cheap marketing 555 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,040 ploys 10 years after the incident because everyone likes 556 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,360 a round Number. Yeah. 8 Will it be 9 years? 557 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:53,360 Eight years? Enough. 558 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,000 A long time since I made it. Yeah, I made it. 559 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:57,760 I made it a 20. I'm 30 now. 560 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,000 That's what I'm trying to get to here is a 20 year old's view of 561 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,640 the world, 30 year old's view of the world. 562 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,720 And I'd love to know. And art is a very precious thing 563 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,800 where you probably don't want to touch it because it's a specific 564 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,720 point in time of your life. But what's it like? 565 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,600 You sit down with this play that you wrote 8-9 years ago that you 566 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,880 want to perform again. What's the thought process? 567 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,280 How do you approach that? It's a good recession indicator, 568 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,080 isn't it? Pound is down, burgers is back. 569 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,320 I think that it's interesting doing press for it because 570 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,840 there's a temptation to go. Yeah, I made it, It's not been 571 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,400 touched and now I'm here because it makes it more dramatic. 572 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,600 But I'm trying to do a press 1, which is truth. 573 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:36,840 It's 10 years on. I'm a different artist now. 574 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,920 I love making art, but I'm also, I've learnt so much in 10 years 575 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,320 and I haven't had to do a release of work for a few years 576 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,320 now And I promised myself and I would release work again now 577 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,600 that I would just stay like clocked in to like what's 578 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,480 actually happening rather than there's this temptation when you 579 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,560 start selling stuff to go. That's everyone else's job. 580 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,640 Ultimately I did the show. It would be different if that 581 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,760 show happened and then I didn't touch it, but I toured that show 582 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:07,320 and perform that show until 2023. 583 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,520 So ultimately it's been 2 years since I put it down. 584 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,000 But I think what's more interesting is that for me, and 585 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,560 I'm not, you know, I could be modest about this. 586 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,000 There are things that I've written that if I even touched 587 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,520 it three years on would feel like it's, it's no longer 588 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,320 relevant. Even some shows that I love. 589 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,520 I think Sandy Underground, my last play is whoa, the lights 590 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,760 have gone off. Bipling's lawyers. 591 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,600 You summoned, you said Bipling 3 times in a mirror. 592 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,560 And now she's turning off the power. 593 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,040 You're a food addict, addict addict. 594 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:46,160 What's the thing? Sunny Underground, my favourite 595 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,360 show I think I've ever made on stage, would now be out of date 596 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,640 two years on. To you or to the world? 597 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,080 Period to everyone because of what it was about. 598 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,880 What's wild about burgers is we were ready to like change it, 599 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:04,280 mould it, take it apart and it's sadly still relevant. 600 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,320 And I'm not saying that to sell it, I'm not saying that to like 601 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,440 push tickets, but I'm saying that because it's actually just 602 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,480 true. Like I ultimately wouldn't do it 603 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,280 if I felt like it was no longer relevant. 604 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,120 And it's not actually a victory lap. 605 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,240 I think sometimes something about the 10 years of it all, 606 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,760 which I get is other people is that makes it feel like it's 607 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,800 this like, whoa, heyday thing. But the wild thing is I was 608 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,080 like, if I feel like reading it, people aren't saying that I'll 609 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:34,720 not do it. Actually, sadly, I don't think 610 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,440 there is still many shows saying the particularities that this 611 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,680 show does in the way it does. Something happened in 2023 when 612 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:46,480 I closed it in London after six years of performing it, where I 613 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,760 felt a bit over some of the emotion. 614 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:50,600 In it. It must take a lot out of you to 615 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,000 do that night in, night out. It's weird, you know, in the 616 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,920 show I bring up a random audience member from the stage 617 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:58,400 every night who's a white straight man, and we cook a 618 00:31:58,400 --> 00:31:59,640 burger. That bit's really fun. 619 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:01,680 You meet someone new every night, which is why the show 620 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:06,000 actually half of it, Half of it, it is actually new every night 621 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:07,400 because it's a new audience member. 622 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,160 And I think a lot of people don't realise when they go and 623 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,800 see it that half of it's like a bit of they don't realise. 624 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,680 It's funny. Yeah, that's the thing that's 625 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,720 played in the last 10 years. Everything's I'm so serious all 626 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,760 the time. But burgers is quite silly for a 627 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:20,640 lot of it. The other half is definitely a 628 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,960 20 year old processing transphobia. 629 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,640 And something happened in 2023 where I felt incredibly 630 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,400 privileged. My life has changed since I was 631 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,360 20. I'm not saying I'm some person 632 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,840 now on the $1,000,000 hill or whatever, you know, I do just 633 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,040 make fear. But at 20 I was in a state of 634 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,720 precarity that I'm not now. And so something happened in 635 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,360 2023 where I was like, wow, when I made this show I was fighting 636 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,040 to be heard. And actually in 2023, here I am 637 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,440 at the South Bank Centre mainstage for its second run, 638 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,520 sold out. And I just had a show at the 639 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,040 Royal Court, arguably 2, really big. 640 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:55,240 I'm not fighting to be heard, babe. 641 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:56,520 People are fighting to pay tickets. 642 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,360 And then that year, some big things happened in my personal 643 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,800 life around trans. I feel like the world since 2023 644 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,480 has been even more relentless to trans people that coming back to 645 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,280 the show, my pitch, I'm ready to say it again. 646 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,840 I feel no qualms about it. And we did a rehearsal back in 647 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,240 London before I came here. And my director, Sam Kurtz 648 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,640 Lindsay, who's been with me since the start of it, was ready 649 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,760 to be like, come on, babe, let's get this truck moving. 650 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,240 And he was like, oh, we're fine. Don't want to tell Lilo. 651 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,400 Our producers paid for a second rehearsal, but we slacked off 652 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,480 the second day. Come home, you've got it. 653 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,240 Not as much changed as it should. 654 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,760 And the bits that stand out as a 20 year old that wrote it, I 655 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,640 want to keep it in because I think it, it's got an urgency 656 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,760 that like, I think the biggest change happens in, I mean, I'm 657 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,040 still young, but the biggest change from 20 to 30 is that you 658 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,440 learn you're not always right. But there's something about the 659 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,400 20 year old me that was stunning that I don't have any more. 660 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:53,720 I can't write a script like that anymore. 661 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:55,880 So I kind of love that it's there. 662 00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:00,120 And that necessity of that 20 year old to share that story and 663 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,280 that voice, that's something that we as a society require 664 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,240 from 20 year olds. Exactly. 665 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,560 You can't always be that 20 year old, but we need the 20 year 666 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,920 olds and then we need the 30 year old point of view and then 667 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:11,880 etcetera. But I'm trying to just be like, 668 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,320 wow, that 20 year old was a fighting and I think I've lost a 669 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,560 bit of the fight and I'm ready to fight again in a way that 670 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,719 isn't as brutal, in a way that listens to other people more. 671 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:23,800 But actually the world is demanding for us to do more. 672 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,239 I think we all got fatigue, or I can speak for myself, I got 673 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:28,679 fatigue. I didn't do my best. 674 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:30,960 I don't know if I'm always doing as much as I can. 675 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,840 When I was 20, I thought I was doing everything I could. 676 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:35,880 And there's something about burgers now. 677 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,280 It's interesting. We said to my director, we're 678 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,320 not changing the words, we're changing the intention, which is 679 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,080 again, wanker alert. But 20 year old me was telling 680 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:44,679 everyone. And I think this version of 681 00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:49,239 burgers is telling myself and like asking myself and like 682 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,719 making me remember the fight, making me remember to do stuff. 683 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,600 And the words haven't shifted, but I'm so much more emotional. 684 00:34:57,720 --> 00:34:59,960 Yes. It's wild and so I'm really 685 00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:03,920 looking forward to it and I feel like it's that same at 20 I made 686 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,560 it to heal and at 30 I'm saying it to heal too. 687 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,600 I'm keen to get into your album. Yeah, let's go. 688 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,280 Tell me what it is and why you picked it. 689 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,040 Yeah, OK, this was actually quite an easy pick, even though 690 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,160 there's so many favourite albums, but I picked Lord 691 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:30,040 Heroine. The Lord's debut, What was the 692 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:31,080 question you asked me why I picked? 693 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:32,280 It Why did you pick it? Do you love the album? 694 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,320 What do you I? This is not about me. 695 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,800 Sorry, we'll get there. Why, when you're thinking about 696 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,040 something which is soundtracks part of your queer experience, 697 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,440 why did this album come up? Yeah, I mean, I love Lord 698 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,920 unashamedly, even if it's like a turbulent relationship, because 699 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,480 I don't know if every album hits for me the same, but that's 700 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:51,720 fine. That's what you're allowed to do 701 00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:53,360 is nice. But turbulence being the word. 702 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:58,240 I listen to this when I was 18 on my way back from a queer 703 00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:04,680 summer camp in Oakland, CA, on the plane the whole way home and 704 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,440 I just had like this. I think the album is talking 705 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,360 about, or I did at the time and I do think now I re listened to 706 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,360 it after I'd sent it to you. But I do think it is talking 707 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,640 about like a person in a small town trying to dream big. 708 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:22,000 Pretty soon I'll be getting on my first plane. 709 00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:34,080 I'll see the veins of my city like they do in space. 710 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:36,320 And I don't think Bristol is a small town. 711 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,840 Obviously it is a city, but actually people from Bristol 712 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,160 will know there is a city that kind of speaks like a town. 713 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:44,920 At 18 I was really struggling with. 714 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,320 I knew the sexuality part of my my identity wasn't tough. 715 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,160 People knew I didn't have to come out in that way. 716 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,560 People could tell what I was doing sexually, but that was 717 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,360 never the thing I was in contention with. 718 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,680 I never felt shame around who I was sleeping with. 719 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,960 I always felt a big shame out of how big I wanted to like, live 720 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,000 my life. I always felt a lot of shame 721 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:12,040 about wanting more from how I would dress out of my artistic 722 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,320 expression. Like for me, like my art and 723 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,920 gender was so linked. And I remember 18, I don't know 724 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,000 how to describe it. My mom and my brother, older the 725 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:26,600 way out of our situation, was to go to education and go to good 726 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,560 schools. My brother had really done well 727 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,440 at that. He went to Oxford, and that was 728 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,240 a huge thing for my family. He had gone from this council 729 00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:36,320 state and gone to Oxford and everyone was like, whoa, whoa, 730 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:37,840 whoa, whoa. And I'm really proud of him. 731 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,760 But at 18, I was squashed by this feeling of needing to study 732 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,720 and this weird instinct I had in me that, like, it wasn't that I 733 00:37:45,720 --> 00:37:48,760 couldn't study, but I just was like, I'm meant to be doing 734 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:50,720 something else, but I didn't know what it was. 735 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,080 And then I went to Oakland this queer summer camp and basically 736 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,880 met artists for the first time. And my mind was like, blown. 737 00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:01,400 Is this what you learned about pronouns? 738 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:02,520 I learned. That you got. 739 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,600 You really have done your research, but I'm trying to pick 740 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,560 a different story so I don't do repeat. 741 00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:10,720 Yes, it is. It is more than just the 742 00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:14,840 pronouns and the queerness. I met what I now know were just 743 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,360 working artists, but I didn't know that at the time. 744 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,920 Queer people living, you know, like how now we land in a city 745 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,600 and we find our queers and we do it and we take it for granted, 746 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,400 you know, RIP the bearded tit. But like, absolutely thank. 747 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,280 You for that I really love that you've experienced. 748 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,320 That yeah, RIP the bearded tit. But the bearded tit, when I 749 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,280 first came to Sydney, I was amazed by it and it's so 750 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,640 special. And it also went, wow, how cool. 751 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,160 Anywhere you drop in a city, you can find this queer place, 752 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:42,920 right? But at 18, you don't know that. 753 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,200 No, at 18, I knew there was queer people, but I didn't 754 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:46,840 understand how queer people were living. 755 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:48,160 And now we just take it for granted. 756 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,480 And we know that we're this micro kind of community that has 757 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,200 artists, painters, A tarot reader, 7 tower readers, all 758 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:56,440 these people that are part of it. 759 00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,960 At 18, I saw that in Oakland, CA and my mind was blown. 760 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,200 Then I found someone I was, you know, dating or, you know, 761 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,160 whatever. And they took me to Berkeley 762 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,280 housing Co-op and LGBTQ Co-op. And I was learning all this 763 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:16,640 stuff and I remember being overwhelmed, scared, sad, and 764 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,640 not wanting to go back to university because I was 765 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:21,480 starting university that September. 766 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,520 So I was meant to be excited. And I put on this album. 767 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:26,960 Now we go back, land the plane, land the plane. 768 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,960 I'm on the plane listening to Lord's album. 769 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,520 And I just cry because I think that there was a sense of 770 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:38,600 bigness that she was trying to get and that's why it links up. 771 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:45,240 We can talk it so good. We can make it so little, right? 772 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,760 We can talk it good how you wish it would be all the time. 773 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,480 While I knew the story about the camp, I hadn't put two and two 774 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,520 together there. That's a useful connection. 775 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,600 I don't think I'd listen to this album in maybe a few years. 776 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:01,720 I really like Lords. Oh, you. 777 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,040 Know OK cool. I really like her, she's great. 778 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,240 She is great. And this album, she was 16 years 779 00:40:07,240 --> 00:40:09,000 old when she made this, which is crazy. 780 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:13,600 And it really stands up. I think it's released aged 781 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:14,840 fabulously. It has a name. 782 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:16,320 Did you re listen to it this week? 783 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,720 I did, yeah, same, same time. There was tracks. 784 00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:20,640 I think it's a bit embarrassing for me because that's some of 785 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,640 her most listened to songs on Spotify, but I hadn't heard some 786 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,000 of them in years. And I was like, Oh my gosh, this 787 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:27,200 is a tune. And Lord, you know, she did. 788 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,480 I don't know if she actually comes from Auckland, the city or 789 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:34,640 a small town near Auckland, but to be a 16 year old girl going 790 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,600 from New Zealand, which listeners is even further than 791 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,360 Australia from the rest of the world, to just go into this huge 792 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,880 life waiting there for her, I think it's a really great album 793 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,680 that represents that experience and it soundtracks your own 794 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:49,560 experience. Yeah, I felt like I was Lord, 795 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,600 but but it is true. And I feel like we listen to it 796 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,120 now and I think it still also holds up. 797 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,200 I was fondly thinking about like, she's talking about leaps, 798 00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,360 you know, and like, she's talking about like the 799 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,360 complexities. I think she's talking about the 800 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,240 complexities of like wanting something that could be 801 00:41:04,240 --> 00:41:09,840 dangerous but doing it anyway. And of course, me at 18, I 802 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:11,720 wasn't actually thinking, you know, her songs are talking 803 00:41:11,720 --> 00:41:13,320 about fame. I wasn't thinking about fame. 804 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,680 I was thinking about that artistic life. 805 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:21,120 And I really fondly look back at that choice to do it. 806 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,560 But I think about that album as pushing me that. 807 00:41:23,720 --> 00:41:25,680 I love the word you just used that leap. 808 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,200 Yeah, again, I got a little. Shiver of something, and it 809 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,640 could have been a bit of. Fear. 810 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:34,760 Or that kind of like we we in our life, we take several. 811 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,240 Multiple leaps. And do you think, I think that 812 00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:40,080 when you, again, I'm speaking as if I'm like 70 now, but like I 813 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,000 do think maybe it's because of the questions we're having 814 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:47,480 before that 18/19/20, you're more used to constantly leaping 815 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,480 and that now some more frequently, Yeah, sometimes now 816 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,320 leaps take a lot more forward planning and thinking. 817 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,640 And then for me personally, I do think the pandemic and the 818 00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,320 recent years, they've made us, rightfully so, really cautious. 819 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,880 But I think not to sound too deep, but like, I do think that 820 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,960 right now, it was asking us to like, take some big leaps, be 821 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,120 bolder, be bolder. And to think about the fact that 822 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,400 even if we don't leap, the world is actually taking huge leaps in 823 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,320 lots of directions. And you've got to choose to be 824 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,640 working at that state as well. Yeah, yeah. 825 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,960 Good on Lord for good on leap. Shout out to Lord. 826 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,760 Shout out to Lord I love her. I also just think she does fame 827 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,120 really well. Wow. 828 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:27,600 No, no, I agree. You agree? 829 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,360 I actually the one completely unrelated. 830 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,520 Maybe it is more related than I thought. 831 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,600 I wanna talk about girls. So confusing. 832 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,600 Okay, let's go. Well honestly, I was speechless 833 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,840 when I woke up through your voice Now you told me how you've 834 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,240 been feeling. Let's get out on the. 835 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,680 We're looking at a track she featured on. 836 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,960 Another artist is after this 16 year old who did pure heroin. 837 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,560 But there's something. Yeah, there's something in it 838 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:55,960 isn't. It and when that happened you 839 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,840 know the Charlie naysayers are like oh she's so it's what it's 840 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,120 a marketer's dream it's all just production. 841 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,400 First of all, Charlie has been working at her career for over a 842 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,960 decade now. She's since the bipling lineage, 843 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,960 she bipling returns, the return of bipling. 844 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,840 She's been treading those boards, whether the boards have 845 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,920 been my space or whatever. And she deserves all the 846 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,880 flowers. But that whole, I believe every 847 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,760 word of this storyline of her making this song about Lord 848 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,040 voicemailing Lord like the day before the song came out or 849 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,960 whatever, and Lord being like, yeah, let's go. 850 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,840 I've got something to say too. I think I've loved it and I've 851 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,640 found it like because I would say I'm more of a Lord fan than 852 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:38,640 a Charlie fan, but I'm not a Charlie naysayer. 853 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:40,080 Why are you putting women against each other? 854 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,000 So true. And I always do this with 855 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:43,320 brunette women. It's fucked. 856 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:50,160 Sorry, but no, I am more of a Lord. 857 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,880 I wouldn't say I'm a Charlie Stan, I would say I indulged 858 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:54,960 happily in Brat Summer. I thought it was amazing. 859 00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:58,000 I got to see her do it a couple of times and thought it's great. 860 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,560 But I've known that Charlie's been doing bits for long and 861 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,280 inspiring lots of my friends. Of course, Pop is manufactured 862 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,400 in so many ways, but at the core of it, hopefully a lot of the 863 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,520 time our artists doing stuff, they're just doing stuff in 864 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:11,720 different ways and different mechanics, and I felt like it 865 00:44:11,720 --> 00:44:13,120 was really inspiring to watch them. 866 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:14,760 I loved it. I thought it was so cool. 867 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:16,480 I thought it deserved all the Fink pieces. 868 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:20,240 I've had issues with the word manufacturing fractured since I 869 00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:22,480 was a little Spice boy. Go on. 870 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,800 When I got old enough to have these conversations, people 871 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,320 would poo poo the Spice Girls were being manufactured and I'm 872 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,080 like, oh, that sounds like such a bad thing. 873 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,800 And then like, but then it was such a conflict because I adored 874 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:39,360 the Spice Girls. They were my everything. 875 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,200 And now what I know about how the actual Spice Girls were 876 00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,360 made, they manufactured. Themselves. 877 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:47,480 So what's the? Difference between manufacturing 878 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,800 and self actualization. Thank you. 879 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,120 It's intentional and I think people shit and pop, but it's an 880 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:57,440 intention and actually like, you know, I hate cross art form like 881 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,800 shitting on because at the core of all of it is people thinking 882 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,280 about how will this impact the person receiving it, what other 883 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,680 choices I'm making to benefit these other choices. 884 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,600 And pop I just think is an amazing example of that. 885 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:11,920 And when we're watching films, they're doing it to us too. 886 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:13,680 When we're watching movies, when we're watching these things that 887 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,000 people think up here, art form. But even, like, let's take like 888 00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,960 a classical music concert, you know, Spice Girls classical 889 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:22,680 music. One will be people saying one's 890 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,000 highbrow, one's lowbrow. I know what I'd be saying is 891 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:25,560 highbrow. Yeah. 892 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:28,320 Exactly. I've checked myself for this. 893 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,200 You know when you can be be a little bit snobby of someone say 894 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,200 some things. Hopefully I'm getting better at 895 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,160 asking myself, why do I care? Why do I care what that person 896 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:36,640 likes? This podcast must be wild 897 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,480 because you must have to find love or interest in everyone's 898 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,240 song choices. Honestly, it's not hard at all. 899 00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:45,000 But there's one artist who springs to mind who I can't 900 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,440 stand, I cannot abide. And you'll hear about it on the 901 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:54,880 Patreon episode and. That is curation that conductor 902 00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,600 has conducted. That we better crack on and wrap 903 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,080 up with OK, your artist, who and why? 904 00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:06,000 This is so fun, Jill Scott. I'm taking my freedom, pulling 905 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,920 it off the shower, pulling it on my chain. 906 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,440 Jill Scott's my favourite for so many reasons. 907 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,040 I think she's also just maybe my most listened to artist, always 908 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,480 consistently, so she's on there for that. 909 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,160 I think she's incredible. I also wanted to pick someone 910 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:28,160 that was made different to the other tracks before. 911 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,280 But it also, I guess we've already mentioned, I didn't know 912 00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,840 we'd speak about this, but my mum and the music she would play 913 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,440 in the house. Jill Scott was her huge 914 00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,840 crossover where I started to be like maybe my mum listens to 915 00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,440 really cool stuff. She's incredible. 916 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,200 The reason it's linked to my quinners is that I think that 917 00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,400 how do I say this, Mum, if you're listening to this, now is 918 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:49,960 the time for you to pause and get off. 919 00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:52,520 Just got some, a lot of my sex playlists. 920 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,760 Yeah, just got some a lot of my music that I listen to when I 921 00:46:55,760 --> 00:47:00,440 fuck. And I remember being like 922 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:04,800 20/21/22 and realising that I needed to be a bit more 923 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,120 intentional about the people I would have sex with and be a bit 924 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,600 more intentional about how they viewed my race and my blackness 925 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:14,800 and all these things. And I felt like it was when I 926 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:19,480 started to stop trying to hide certain parts of myself to allow 927 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,760 other parts of myself. And Jill Scott weirdly was like 928 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,640 a huge part of that because I think Jill Scott is lots of 929 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:28,880 things. She's lots of drummers, but 930 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:33,320 she's black, you know, like she is a lot of like she's a lot of 931 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,560 people's favourite artists, but she's definitely like a black 932 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,600 artist, not just in her race and ethnicity, but in the sound and 933 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,960 culture, in the references, in the aesthetic, in like the 934 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,560 discography, in the people that like when you say Jill Scott. 935 00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:58,400 It was really important for me when I was putting on these 936 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:03,080 playlists to remind myself of my mum, my culture, to remind 937 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:04,800 myself of my mum when I'm getting fucked. 938 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,920 Oh, God. God. 939 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,520 Podcast. Yeah. 940 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:13,320 There we go. Well, yeah. 941 00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,000 That's Jill Scott. She's incredible. 942 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,440 Do you listen to her? I love Jill Scott, I love that 943 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:19,200 story. But I also assumed there might 944 00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,480 be a connection there because Jill isn't out and proud a poet. 945 00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:25,640 She is a musician, but she's very clearly a poet as well. 946 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,840 And you can argue that many musicians are also poets. 947 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:29,880 Did that resonate with you at all when you were discovering 948 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:31,480 her work or she was more of that musician? 949 00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:32,920 But. Not really, because by that time 950 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,160 I was probably trying to remind myself I wasn't a yeah. 951 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,200 I never really felt like a poet. I felt like it was an art form 952 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,680 that I kind of fell into to try and find a stage. 953 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:45,560 But that's a story from the day, so less so, I think. 954 00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:51,240 I think it's truly her aesthetic and her sound was so sensual. 955 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,600 She is such a sensual artist and I found it really important to 956 00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:00,400 think about sex and think about it with the roots of who I was. 957 00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:03,320 I do love when Jill Scott gets her poet hat on. 958 00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:06,320 Sometimes when you see her live, you want to urge her to get to 959 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,080 the song, but you're like, no, this is Jill Scott. 960 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,840 If she wants to stop and do a poem for 25 minutes, she'll do a 961 00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:13,960 poem for 25 minutes. I love her so much. 962 00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:15,880 So you have seen her live? I've seen her live, I've only 963 00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:17,720 seen her live once for someone that listens to her all the 964 00:49:17,720 --> 00:49:19,520 time. And she loves Bristol as well, 965 00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:20,880 it's one of her favourite cities. 966 00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,760 Her discography is just great, she's got so many songs. 967 00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:28,480 What I love about having her as a favourite artist is you won't 968 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:32,040 get to the same song in one day. You can go through and go 969 00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,440 through, and there's some weird ones, yeah, but most of them are 970 00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,440 just so great. Travis, you are at the bar. 971 00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,360 The bit of tit is still open in this fantasy, and you've ordered 972 00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:41,920 yourself your cocktail of choice. 973 00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:46,520 And you strike up a conversation with a younger queer perhaps, 974 00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,240 and this conversation turns to Jill Scott. 975 00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,200 Where would you direct this younger queer if they didn't 976 00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,000 know where to start with Jill Scott? 977 00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:57,480 I would ask them their opinion on pop and I think if they say 978 00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:01,560 they love pop then I would go for like hate on me. 979 00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,120 Golden, like that kind of stuff, yeah. 980 00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,160 If they were like, no, I'm a bit more like, not really pop or 981 00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:19,800 anything like that. I would go to like a lot of 982 00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,280 middle stuff like Long Walk your background. 983 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:30,040 It ain't squeaky cliche. Sometimes we all have to swim up 984 00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,360 straight or we get on. Or some of her soul beats in the 985 00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,800 middle. Look at all the people that 986 00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:40,160 feature on her album and enjoy. If you're really wanting a wild 987 00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:44,040 trajectory, just look at also Got featuring and I think it's 988 00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:46,800 quite a funny journey because you can tell when someone else 989 00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,000 jumps on She's Wild and the younger person might go. 990 00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,280 I've not listened to a full song ever. 991 00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,920 I have a short attention span. Go to the Jill Scott Erykah Badu 992 00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:58,960 2020 live battle on Instagram that I'm sure is resurfaced on 993 00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:02,400 Tiktok, that is. Wild are they besties? 994 00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:04,560 I have no idea. They've known each other for a 995 00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:06,240 long time and. You know. 996 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:08,520 And we don't pick women. We don't. 997 00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:10,160 Yeah. Gossip. 998 00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,000 How quick I was to put Charlie and Lord against each other. 999 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,080 But something about putting Erica and Jill Scott against 1000 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:20,160 each other feels like I can't do that to my aunties. 1001 00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:24,240 But something tells me if they wanted to be friends, they 1002 00:51:24,240 --> 00:51:25,560 would. I think there's a mutual 1003 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:27,600 respect. But if you watch that Instagram 1004 00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,040 Live, there's some because Jill's funny. 1005 00:51:30,240 --> 00:51:33,880 She is funny. Yeah, there's a lot about Erica. 1006 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,320 We worship Erica, but there's a lot about Erica, which is also 1007 00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:38,600 funny. We love Erica. 1008 00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,640 I saw Erica Badu in concert a couple years ago and everyone 1009 00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:43,440 was like, you know, you just know she's going to be late. 1010 00:51:43,720 --> 00:51:46,120 But the amount I was like, really, girl? 1011 00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,960 But then as soon as she came out with this large hat, and she 1012 00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,520 took it off to reveal another large hat, I was like. 1013 00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:54,840 I'm. Locked in, Yeah, yeah. 1014 00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:58,880 Drag time. Absolutely spectacular. 1015 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,240 I'm going to end with something I didn't prepare you for. 1016 00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,240 Are you up until quick fire? Let's go a. 1017 00:52:04,720 --> 00:52:08,880 Song that reminds you of an XA. Song that reminds me of an X 1018 00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:12,160 would definitely be my ex's song. 1019 00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:17,640 Freddie Lewis's track Saturday Sundays Sundays My ex. 1020 00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:32,320 It reminds me of him because he made it about me A a trying to 1021 00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:35,640 find myself for fun. A song that makes you feel 1022 00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,880 powerful. A song that makes me feel 1023 00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:44,720 powerful would be Woman Like Me, Little Mix, Crazy Quick Fire 1024 00:52:44,720 --> 00:52:46,840 does to you. Whoa, Quick fire. 1025 00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:48,840 There we go. We're listening to the music. 1026 00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,480 I just going down the thing that is a bad answer, but we're on 1027 00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:53,560 quick fire. You can't think. 1028 00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,360 We are suited for the inevitable reunion tour, but right now we 1029 00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:57,800 love Jade. Jade smashing. 1030 00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:09,720 Who would you say gun to head is your goddess? 1031 00:53:10,720 --> 00:53:12,720 Beyoncé Easy, easy, easy. Done. 1032 00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:14,800 Easy. Maybe like the last new song 1033 00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:16,120 that you heard that you fell in love with. 1034 00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:18,760 The last new song I heard I fell in love with. 1035 00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:23,160 I think C Matt's Running planning is just gorgeous. 1036 00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:33,200 What incredible songwriting. I keep on running, planning, 1037 00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:39,240 planning, and I think even though that album came out four 1038 00:53:39,240 --> 00:53:41,880 or five months ago, I think now it is the last song that I fully 1039 00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,800 went. Wow, Bodied Travis, Is there a 1040 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:48,920 queer charity social initiative organisation that you'd like to 1041 00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,560 give a shout out to? I feel like it's not charity, 1042 00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:55,520 but at the moment there are prisoners that have been put in 1043 00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:59,280 prison for a long time because they did Palestine action and 1044 00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:00,720 they are currently on a hunger strike. 1045 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:03,400 I've been trying to keep up to date with Palestine Action. 1046 00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:07,680 Who are getting us to look at the visibility of this and why 1047 00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:11,120 these prisoners have first been imprisoned and to the recent 1048 00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:13,920 hunger strike that they're doing to try and cool demands not only 1049 00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:18,040 for the eyes on what's happening in Gaza, but also the eyes of 1050 00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,200 what's happening in the UK around our right to protest 1051 00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:23,080 feels really important. Yeah. 1052 00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:26,400 So there we go. Thank you for sharing, Travis 1053 00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,880 Alabanza, you are queer and thank you very. 1054 00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:33,560 Much for your tracks? Is that the usuality? 1055 00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:37,800 Yeah, I am fucking queer. Imagine if after all of that, I 1056 00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:39,680 don't know, Actually, I'm straight. 1057 00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,120 It's not a slow now, which is Yeah, yeah, it's. 1058 00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:43,840 Not a slow man. So you faggot. 1059 00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:55,120 Because we were tracks. Wow. 1060 00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:58,160 As you can probably hear yourself, this conversation was 1061 00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:01,400 a lot of fun. I love Travis, they were so 1062 00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,600 generous with their time and energy from the get go. 1063 00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,920 And now I know an awful lot about a Blogger called Bitling. 1064 00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:13,080 If you're listening to this episode in January 2026 and live 1065 00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:15,600 near Sydney or Melbourne, I cannot emphasise enough how 1066 00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,080 important it is that you should go and buy a ticket to burgers. 1067 00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:20,640 Links are in the show notes and I'll be at the Sydney show on 1068 00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:23,000 the 16th, so say hello if you see me. 1069 00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,080 This episode of Tracks of Our Queers was recorded and edited 1070 00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:30,960 on Gadigal and The Garigo Land. You can check out my Spotify 1071 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,240 playlist, including my favourite selections from different 1072 00:55:33,240 --> 00:55:34,840 episodes. Also LinkedIn the show notes. 1073 00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:37,720 You can e-mail me gay ramblings at any time at 1074 00:55:37,720 --> 00:55:41,880 tracksofourqueers@gmail.com. And I'm finding myself more and 1075 00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:43,520 more drawn to longer form writing. 1076 00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:46,720 So maybe they'll even be a sub stack in 2026. 1077 00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:47,880 And that's just what we all need. 1078 00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:49,400 One more sub stack to subscribe to. 1079 00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:52,200 Who knows? See you next time. 1080 00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:07,680 Music.