1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,840 Hello and welcome to Tracks of Our Queers. 2 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:13,880 My name is Andy Gott and each episode I chatted to a 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:17,080 fascinating queer person about their relationship with music 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,120 via one song, one album and one artist that have each soundtrack 5 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,280 their life. Few weeks ago I published an 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,200 episode with human rights campaigner and genuine queer 7 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,200 legend Peter Tatchell. Something I implored listeners 8 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,480 of that episode to do is to go and sign up for Peter's 9 00:00:33,480 --> 00:00:35,720 newsletter. He does an excellent job of 10 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:40,120 surfacing fascinating queer stories, both infuriating and 11 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,360 truly uplifting, from all around the globe. 12 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,280 One particular day, this headline in my inbox caught my 13 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,640 eye. Kenyan pop star Willis Chimano 14 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:54,240 was outed in 2018 and many feared his career was over. 15 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,600 But he persevered to become Kenya's most famous openly gay 16 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,600 singer. Colour me intrigued. 17 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,480 A Google deep dive of many hours later, I was hooked on Shimano's 18 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,320 story. One of four members of the 19 00:01:09,320 --> 00:01:14,160 Afropop boy band Salty Soul, one of Kenya's most successful 20 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,920 musical acts ever, he was indeed outed in 2018. 21 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,800 Images of Shimano and his partner were splashed across 22 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:25,560 national and global press. Interestingly, and contrary to 23 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,880 perhaps my own assumptions, Celtic Soul went on to produce 24 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,400 their most successful albums. Their most recent, Midnight 25 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,440 Train, is by far their most streamed. 26 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,840 Shimano's bandmates rallied around him in support and he's 27 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,240 since carved out a fruitful solo career as a singer-songwriter, 28 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,920 author and Africa. Shimano was recently interviewed 29 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,560 on being Kenya's first openly gay pop star by the BBC World 30 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:50,400 Service. And I do encourage you to check 31 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,000 that out as further listening. But right now he's on tracks of 32 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,520 our quiz. This podcast is A1 Queer band 33 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,120 and any donations from listeners go straight into costs 34 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,640 associated with the show. The link to buy me a coffee is 35 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:04,880 in the episode show notes. I don't think I've ever actually 36 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:09,120 bought a coffee with it. It goes on hosting and recording 37 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,640 and you know the gig. But thank you very much in 38 00:02:11,640 --> 00:02:13,880 advance. Let's get into it. 39 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:24,760 Over to Shimano. Shimano, welcome to tracks of 40 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,760 our Queers. Thank you for having me, Andy. 41 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,600 It's good to be here. Tell me about your earliest 42 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,040 musical memory. I'd love to know what your 43 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:38,080 earliest recollection might be of seeing or hearing music. 44 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:43,160 Wow, I think my earliest memory was when I was at my cousin's 45 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,080 house. I probably was all of like 5 or 46 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:50,280 6 years old and I think that was the first time Thriller came on 47 00:02:50,280 --> 00:03:04,640 TV, Thriller by Michael Jackson and I was I was scared because I 48 00:03:04,640 --> 00:03:07,400 remember dashing and running to go behind the couch. 49 00:03:07,640 --> 00:03:10,320 That was just like what the hell is happening here? 50 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:15,560 But it was confusing to me because it was the video and the 51 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,960 the video and all of it and the song. 52 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:20,760 It was scary, but at the same time, it was wonderfully 53 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,360 haunting. I think my mind went into 54 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:28,080 OverDrive and I was like, wow, this is how music can be done. 55 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,280 Or I guess the concept of Deeping an art form started 56 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:35,320 forming in my brain. So yeah, probably to an extent. 57 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:40,120 That's why I fell in love with horror movies, since I am. 58 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,680 Oh, God, I love horrors. It's amazing. 59 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,240 So that's my earliest, earliest, earliest memory. 60 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:49,680 And then what did that lead to with your relationship with 61 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,880 Michael Jackson in German? Did you become obsessed with 62 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,680 wanting to know when the next new Michael Jackson album was 63 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:56,600 out? Etcetera. 64 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,000 Oh my God, that was so my cousins. 65 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,120 How old are you, Andy? 35 Oh, OK, cool. 66 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,440 So back then we didn't have AVCR. 67 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,520 So it was my cousins who had AVCR and the TV, the series. 68 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,400 Then my cousins had this whole cassette of Jesus, what's that 69 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,840 album? The album that had three on, so 70 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,360 it had all the videos on that album. 71 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,760 So that's when I was just like, OK, I kept playing more. 72 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:22,840 Like I kept listening to the next song and the next song and 73 00:04:22,840 --> 00:04:24,640 watching the videos. I kind of felt like like a 74 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,400 visual album. And to an extent, probably 75 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,120 that's why when I look at Beyoncé now, I'm just like, 76 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,040 that's where it kind of stems from. 77 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:47,200 So I was enthralled by Michael since that time. 78 00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:51,520 They also had another VCR that had his live concerts like much 79 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,240 later when he was touring, which was also quite interesting and 80 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,080 amazing. There was just like, wow, this 81 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,480 one person has this much power, but it wasn't necessarily about 82 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:06,120 the power, it was just how he made people feel and that was 83 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,360 interesting and weird. I was just like, OK, cool. 84 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:12,600 I'd also like to make people feel good about themselves, if 85 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,400 that makes sense. Well, you know, as you say that 86 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,520 I'm reminded again that it's not often I get to talk to a real 87 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:24,480 life bona fide pop star. So on this train of thought of 88 00:05:25,280 --> 00:05:29,360 wanting to make people feel good but also actually creating this 89 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,840 visual world, before we began this conversation, I said, look, 90 00:05:33,840 --> 00:05:36,480 I'm not going to talk about your music until the specific part of 91 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,640 the conversation, but I was just watching your own music videos 92 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:41,360 yesterday. Especially freedom. 93 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,000 Freedom. Somebody say freedom. 94 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,640 I'm stuck in the wire. I'm starting to feel like 95 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,200 someone's listening and. I was just blown away by the 96 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,800 visuals, the artistry, the costumes, the makeup, the story 97 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:05,120 that you were telling, and why. Why, as an artist, a recording 98 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:11,640 artist, a visual artist, do you feel so compelled to create art 99 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:13,880 in this form? This is a really big question, 100 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,120 but I'm going from Michael Jackson to Beyoncé to you. 101 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:18,480 Why? What? 102 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,240 Drives that. Oh wow. 103 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,840 I think there's probably a feeling of an innate calling 104 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:29,880 because I started thinking about how to create visuals for 105 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,240 myself. I remember a friend of mine told 106 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:36,120 me that you want to remember your own experiment in terms of 107 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,920 how you produce your work. Because I've been in a system. 108 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:44,640 I was in a band before, so a lot of things were done for us and 109 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,000 around us because we had this huge team. 110 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:51,360 So really self-expression was there, but not in a very 111 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,520 personal way. With freedom, for example, it 112 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,720 was me trying to find beauty and simplicity. 113 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,960 You know how when I think of the drapery, when I think of the 114 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,440 armour that I was wearing, kind of like when he says don't, 115 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:05,920 don't let them get to your heart or something like that. 116 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,360 I also sometimes forget the lyrics to my own songs, which is 117 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,160 I was just. Like wait wait wait. 118 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:12,720 What's the what's the lyric there? 119 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,840 So slowly I'm discovering different facets of who it is I 120 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,440 am as an artist. In terms of my creative process, 121 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,520 I think visuals first. Mostly visuals first, then the 122 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,920 song comes to mind. So then I create the song. 123 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,560 I will picture something in my mind or, I don't know, dream it, 124 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,520 whatever you want to call it, and then that's when I'll write 125 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,760 a song. So you have the visuals in your 126 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:40,200 mind and then the the the music creation is the channel through 127 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,360 which you're actually allowing the story. 128 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,040 To come out and the visuals. Exactly, Exactly. 129 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:49,880 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I. Guess I ask because I feel like 130 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:55,120 I can speak the language of music, but as a listener, I 131 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,000 don't have any musical talent myself. 132 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:02,000 And I know so many music fans have this deep appreciation for 133 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:07,200 music as an art form, but will always feel removed from music 134 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:11,600 creators because they're two different experiences and 135 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,560 they're two different languages being spoken. 136 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,400 So I guess I'm just so. Yeah, yeah, I hear you. 137 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:20,200 But also I think, I think generally when I, when I do 138 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,080 think about how I would like someone who's listening to my 139 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:27,120 music to integrate it is what does it make you feel? 140 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,800 What problem am I solving or what situation am I? 141 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:35,840 You know, can you, do you see yourself in me or do I see 142 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,000 myself in you? When I'm creating, when I'm 143 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:39,840 putting music up there for me, it's like, how? 144 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:53,360 How does my music make you feel? And who are you creating music 145 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,840 for Shimano right now? Like I'm going in with these big 146 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:57,400 bold. Questions. 147 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,640 My God, I really want to. Build up to it, but I'm thinking 148 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,440 of your career in in a band with Salty Soul 149 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,800 and then your career as a solo artist. 150 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:20,840 Do you see a significant crossover in audience and 151 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:25,120 listeners, or are you creating art for different audiences in 152 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,600 different channels? I will say I look at things a 153 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:29,640 bit different now. It was a lot. 154 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,120 It was, it was more of a whirlwind. 155 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:36,080 Sometimes I, I, I think about it and I feel like there's some 156 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:40,200 blanks in my in my in my mind in regards to like different parts 157 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,440 of our career. But it built me to where it is 158 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,560 that I am. I in regards to people, the 159 00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:51,960 listeners moving with me. That has been, that has been 160 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:57,240 different because I took some time to I took some time and so 161 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,640 you could send still on kind of like a little break musically, 162 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,600 because I'm really not going to studio to put out new music at 163 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,240 the moment. I, I just needed to take a break 164 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,600 to figure out how to, to fall in love with the music again, to 165 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,400 fully look deeper than me. And you know, first of all, to, 166 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,520 to forgive myself for, for things I felt that I should have 167 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:18,320 done for myself. I should have fought for myself 168 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:22,960 harder. And also to, to, to ask myself, 169 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,280 why am I doing this? What am I doing this for? 170 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:30,040 And that needed me to go into finding my story and thinking of 171 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,240 my story as a superpower. You know, what am I putting out 172 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:37,200 there that is heartfelt from because I was lacking that 173 00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:42,920 emotional connection to mute to the music, to to the lyrics to 174 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:48,720 to the visuals and as well a bit of self sabotage here and there 175 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,640 and both of them imposter syndrome here and there. 176 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,720 You know, that thinking that something is too big or, or why 177 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,000 if I to who's going to listen? Who cares? 178 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,720 You know, so many questions that I needed to ask myself. 179 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,000 Do you mean like when you when we think that we're sometimes 180 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,520 being too much or is that? Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. 181 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:12,440 I think because I, I do feel this is, this is uncharted 182 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,960 territory for me because it has been the beginning of me fully 183 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,720 expressing my queerness in my, in my creative journey and in 184 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,360 my, in my music and my lyrics. I have never, oh, it was very 185 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,520 rare for me to have the opportunity to write songs that 186 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:32,320 I feel connected to and that I feel represent me. 187 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,680 And I guess as my career went on before we went solo is that, you 188 00:11:36,680 --> 00:11:40,080 know, I was looking for myself in those songs in the in and 189 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,720 with my band, like we were amazing, made, you know, amazing 190 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:43,680 songs. We did really well. 191 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:47,000 But there was a time I felt I felt lost in all of that. 192 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,440 And to that I felt like an imposter in that people can see 193 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,600 right through me and, and he doesn't mean what he's singing. 194 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:10,000 So I, it also took away from my performances because I do love 195 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,240 perform. I like live performing is, is, 196 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,560 is for me. It's like I, I, I fucking love 197 00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:18,440 it. So I was, I was trying to find 198 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,320 myself in that. So now when I do think of try, 199 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:25,240 when I'm dreaming, when I'm writing, a lot of times I pull 200 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,960 myself back and I'm just like, am I biting more than I can 201 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:33,880 actually chew? And and it's easy to to make 202 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,040 yourself small. It gives you safety, or rather 203 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,880 it gave me safety in that I, you know, I don't want to try 204 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,800 something that is too out there because I don't know how, 205 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,240 because how dare I? I and and still just having hung 206 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,280 ups of this is how people knew me. 207 00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:53,480 And this is kind of like the real me. 208 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:58,200 You really never knew me, but then this real me will. 209 00:12:58,200 --> 00:12:59,680 What do you? You know how you're going to 210 00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:04,320 take it. It's just fascinating hearing a 211 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:09,720 story that is at both times so incredibly unique to you, who 212 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:14,720 you are as an individual, but contains so many universal 213 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:19,560 truths for queer people that so many of us, no matter what job, 214 00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:24,200 what journey we've been on, limit ourselves or assume that 215 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,400 we can't do certain things or that we will be too much in some 216 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,720 ways or. And then so many of us, luckily, 217 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,440 I think do come to the conclusion that we're the only 218 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:36,440 ones putting those limits on ourselves. 219 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,480 And then other times we actually do have limits on ourselves, 220 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,800 maybe for reasons of safety, which, you know, you've 221 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:44,240 experienced many stories like that. 222 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:46,320 So it's really complicated and complex. 223 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:48,160 Sometimes others are putting limits on us. 224 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,000 Sometimes we're putting limits on ourselves. 225 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,120 But ultimately, when we do breakthrough them. 226 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,200 And this is where art that is created through this lens is so 227 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,920 special. That sense of liberation and 228 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,160 freedom is one of the most incredible parts. 229 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,000 Of your experience. And we have really gone in big 230 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,160 and hard. I'm going to go right back. 231 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:11,600 We're going to wind it back. So Michael Jackson childhood and 232 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,440 then in your teens, what were you gravitating to when you were 233 00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:17,800 forming and shaping your own? Oh, wow. 234 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:23,160 In my teens, I was, of course, struggling with my sexuality. 235 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:28,800 And as well, it's been Kenya, still very largely conservative. 236 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,000 And I mean, a lot has changed in the last like, 15 years or so. 237 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,880 So in my teens, it was very interesting being torn between 238 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,600 wanting to look straight in terms of what my musical choices 239 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,040 were. This was a time as well. 240 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,520 My voice was doing a thing because it's not like it was 241 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:47,600 deep. It was like, but then it was 242 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:49,360 like, so it was just like going there. 243 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:54,840 So all of that's happening. And I'm also different in how my 244 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:59,080 mannerisms and how I see it. So I'm, you know, juggling 245 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:03,120 between my God, is it Tupac or Céline Dion? 246 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:09,760 You know, is it, you know, So what, what can I really say that 247 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,240 I'm listening to? You know, this is a time my 248 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,760 voice is breaking. Then I have, I have very 249 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,480 different mannerisms from the rest of the boys my my age. 250 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:19,960 And I'm told like, you know, you can't sit with your legs 251 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:21,440 crossed. That's very girly. 252 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,680 But in the meantime, I'm being laughed at for my for my deep 253 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:31,560 voice with because I was I was the short 1 then and I was as a 254 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:33,280 short, this short and skinny boy. 255 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:38,040 So my musical choices were I was very I was fighting. 256 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:42,800 But I do, I mean, I, you know, there are some songs like that 257 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,440 really came through when I was listening to, of course, Céline 258 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,560 Dion when I was there with my mom's cassette tapes and like 259 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:53,000 trying to like record my voice on top of on top of the radio. 260 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,120 When you really we had this wonderful boom box that was I 261 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,640 wonder where it is. So you just like you press 262 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:04,120 record and play and then used to sing over it all karaoke machine 263 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:05,960 something. My dad had a microphone as well 264 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,120 that you kind of tuned into a certain frequency. 265 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:12,440 So I used to sing that on top of that on top of that on with my 266 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,880 mom's cassettes. But then also, yeah, I am trying 267 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:20,480 to do a rap session on 2, Biggie, Tupac, you know, all of 268 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:33,480 that. And on that like Biggie 2 pack 269 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,600 stuff, were you listening to that because you felt like you 270 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,120 should be to fit in with your friends or did you actually just 271 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:41,920 really love it? At that point it was to fit in 272 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,360 so that I could. Be able to give. 273 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,640 Choices. I mean, options of songs that 274 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,640 won't expose me in a way so that I can still be one of the boys. 275 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:53,440 Yeah. But there's some songs that 276 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:57,080 truly, like, stayed with me. I remember when I had a Savage 277 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:01,760 Garden. I know that. 278 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:05,680 Was way before I was a teenager, of course. 279 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,319 But yeah, there's some songs that really did create a 280 00:17:08,319 --> 00:17:12,680 nostalgia for me, probably, which is why 27 millennials, we 281 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:17,640 go through this nostalgic fever dreams of our years because 282 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,359 there's some certain harmonies. When I do listen to some songs 283 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:26,599 that put me at a certain time, a place, I remember the smells. 284 00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:29,560 I remember what it was like going through puberty, what it 285 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,160 was like going to school. My God, that was such a mixed 286 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:38,600 part of stews. Well, you've just expedited part 287 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,200 of this conversation we've jumped straight to, I reckon. 288 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,360 Let's just go with the flow. Well, first of all, Trimano, I 289 00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:47,560 asked you to consider three musical selections which speak 290 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:49,400 in some way to your journey as a queer person. 291 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,920 And I would like you to tell the listeners what the track you 292 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:54,960 picked is. The track I picked. 293 00:17:54,960 --> 00:18:10,520 Is I Want You by Savage Garden. And you just reeled off. 294 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,280 You were just kind of go into that like nostalgic state of 295 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:15,600 smells sounds. Yeah. 296 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,280 That feel for that time when you first heard this song. 297 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,080 So describe that to me. You're hearing I Want You by 298 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,520 Savage Garden. What's What's the cinematic 299 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,160 scene? I mean my mom's small living 300 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,160 room, we still have one of those TV's still that had like buttons 301 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,720 on the side. I think it was not channel 1 302 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:43,200 till 10 and it was the chap show that was on Channel 4 and that 303 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,600 that could just came up. I remember because the video is 304 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,840 kind of like this greyish, black and whitish situation. 305 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,480 And I think the moment is that Darren started singing. 306 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:58,520 I was just like kind of like this and at that at that point, 307 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:02,480 because I'd missed since the name of the of the song and the 308 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:07,760 band and all of that. So I didn't know up until up 309 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,760 until a few years ago, I, I kept, I was looking for that 310 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,560 song and I kept on singing and kept on asking something. 311 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:18,040 And they're just like, what the hell are you saying? 312 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:24,360 And because that song stayed with me because as well in that 313 00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:28,400 moment, it was I think it was a Saturday afternoon towards like 314 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,520 towards evening. So late afternoon, early 315 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,720 evening, you know, supper was getting ready. 316 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,240 Like it was just it was just a moment. 317 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,680 I remember the curtains. I remembered was was warm. 318 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,680 And when I think about it, it gives me like how old was I? 319 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,000 I was probably like 10 there about. 320 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,520 You say that you knew you thought the song was named a 321 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,560 certain way or whatever. I've always known this song was 322 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,680 like the Chicka Cherry Cola song. 323 00:19:54,680 --> 00:20:01,400 Chicka Cherry Cola. Anytime I need. 324 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:09,320 To see. Yes, yes. 325 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,880 And I, I'm just kind of fascinated by Savage Garden. 326 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,920 But they are, they're obviously a duo, they're obviously a boy 327 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,560 band, which I think they're a very interesting choice from 328 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,560 you. But they, they seem to explode 329 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,440 in the culture. They had like 2 albums or 330 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,600 whatever and they were so huge and some really big tracks and 331 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,880 then they just disappeared. And I actually don't fully know 332 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:34,320 why the band broke up, but there's the glimmers and 333 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,280 snippets I've heard over the years from Darren Hayes is that 334 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:42,400 it is connected to his decision to push back against advice from 335 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,080 record label executives, push back against management, and 336 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,120 come out and live authentically as a gay man. 337 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,600 And he has since, of course, gone on to have a very 338 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,360 successful solo career of his own. 339 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,560 Earlier on, when I was prodding you a little bit about the 340 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,600 audience you had in your band versus the audience you have 341 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,960 now, I think of like Darren, Darren Hayes has a very, very 342 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,040 passionate audience of people who have followed him from 343 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:11,760 Savage Garden. But really love and appreciate 344 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:16,600 him for who he is as an authentic artist today, and I 345 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,560 don't know if any of that resonates with you in your own 346 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,920 career. Oh my God, Yeah, it does. 347 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:30,640 I will say that when, when there was the, the, the career that I, 348 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:36,200 that we built that became our biggest freedom in terms of what 349 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,840 we managed to achieve. I, you know, I eventually at 350 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,520 some point ended up becoming a prison for me because without 351 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,600 hard work and bad whatever, like it's, I was told, just make sure 352 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,960 like you're careful. You can't be too obvious. 353 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:51,480 You kind of course you can say that. 354 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,400 But then when that happened sometime around in 20, 355 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,080 2018-2019. So of course, a lot of a lot of 356 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,560 a lot of our fans then I don't know if I don't know if it's a 357 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,440 majority or part of them. Do you know, they said now they 358 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:11,480 can't listen to us anymore or because of my queerness or, or 359 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,120 they're just like, Oh my God. So this whole time this guy was 360 00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:19,840 singing for guys. Oh my God, you know, so so you 361 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,720 it was jarring and and unfortunate because I was just 362 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:30,240 like, wow, just a few days ago y'all were cool with me and 363 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:36,240 everything until now this has happened and eventually sort of 364 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,920 being blamed for the band breaking out because in their 365 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,960 minds they were assuming that of course this straight guys would 366 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,280 not want to be working with this gay guy. 367 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,280 So he's ruined it all with his evil spirit or whatever he has 368 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,600 in him. But I will say there are those 369 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:58,160 people who saw me since get go and we're just waiting for me 370 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:03,200 to, to, to get some sort of freedom. 371 00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:06,120 And they were just waiting for me in the wings for me to be 372 00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:10,280 like, OK, I'm ready now. And I, I think because a lot of 373 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,760 times we do focus on negativity, especially when it comes to 374 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,720 people's opinions all over us. And I remember one of my friends 375 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,120 was just like, you need to remember that if you keep 376 00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:24,040 focusing on the negative, then you're not being very fair to a 377 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:29,320 lot of us who have loved you and who are there for you since get 378 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,520 go. Yeah, like never forget us. 379 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,080 Because then, you know, if if you keep focusing on the 380 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:39,120 negative and and because I also had a lot of blow UPS on the 381 00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:41,760 Internet, you know that I had many days. 382 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,480 I was just like, today I have time, you know, so I'm going to. 383 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:52,480 Yeah, I have. I I, I had a sharp tongue. 384 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:57,760 I was very curt and I was very. It took me out of character and 385 00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:02,440 I kept on asking myself like this cool, who the fuck is this? 386 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,600 So when my friend said that, I was like, actually, yeah, I 387 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,920 would rather move forward with one or two of you. 388 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,360 And I know that it's something that we're building together. 389 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,240 And, you know, it's wholesome and it's easeful. 390 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,920 It's purposeful. What a beautiful comment from 391 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,560 your friend and a reminder to you of something you probably 392 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,040 already knew inside, which was that this side of you isn't the 393 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,640 you that you want to represent. And yeah, I don't blame you for 394 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,000 responding to some of those comments when you have time. 395 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,960 I'm not going to say that I'd be above that either. 396 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,720 Yeah, I do think that, you know, if you're going to respond to 397 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,600 the negative, you've got to respond to the positive as well. 398 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,400 We've got to let all of it in and or actually in fact just 399 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,360 choose to focus on the positive. But while that's a great journey 400 00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:48,440 and a conclusion that you've come to no doubt through, I'm 401 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:53,080 sure the help from friends or therapists or whatever to a 402 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,960 record label executive, they don't particularly care so much 403 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,520 about, you know, you being your true authentic self. 404 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,720 They care about how many records are you selling? 405 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:07,000 What's your streaming numbers? And I don't know how it is today 406 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,520 in the world that we live in in 2025, but my recollections from 407 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,200 growing up in the UK in the 90s and the boy bands where one of 408 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,720 the members did come out, I don't know if you've ever heard 409 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,000 of an Irish boy band called Boyzone. 410 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,120 Oh yeah. Yeah, I remember when Stephen 411 00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:26,960 Gately came out, this really sweet, sensitive soul, and he 412 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,720 came out and what I remember from the press at the time was 413 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,840 no one cared actually, because his bandmates were so supportive 414 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:37,360 of him and the fans who were predominantly, of course, women. 415 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,640 Yeah, just channelled their love from him maybe as like a sex 416 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,840 icon into, oh, we just love you anyway. 417 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:45,960 And I think that's really amazing for the 90s. 418 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,120 But no doubt that there would have been people concerned about 419 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:50,880 record sales dropping for sure like. 420 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,040 Interestingly enough, I think kind of like the same the same 421 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:58,000 thing kind of happened because then when I came out, that was 422 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:03,680 literally before we we did our last album as a band from of 423 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:08,080 course, the the usual app or not, that album ended up being 424 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,440 our best, our best streaming selling album to date. 425 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,600 It was one of those things that I just it it it it did of course 426 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,960 shift my perspective. And of course people you say 427 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,000 like about the women that they're the ones were just like, 428 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,120 Oh my God, not I was in the sex symbol. 429 00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:37,120 So I was still a skinny boy who was just like little and. 430 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,280 I'll be the judge of that. Well, let's talk about maybe 431 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,520 some of your own music then, as a solo artist. 432 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,080 So the album you picked, I believe is your EP Heavy is The 433 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,360 Crown. Over the last few years I've 434 00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:52,000 noticed, well, your memoir, which you're, we were just 435 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,440 talking that you're going to a party tonight, you're launching 436 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,960 your memoir tonight in Nairobi. You've also got your show, which 437 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,600 is coming to Sydney, I believe, next month from when this 438 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,080 episode is published. And they all share the same 439 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,440 title, Heavy as The Crown. So tell me what Heavy is the 440 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,560 Crown means to you? Why does it hold so much weight 441 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,080 for you? Everybody in this world has a 442 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,680 crown and because what like and what that kind of represents is 443 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,880 every you know, there's there's so much in within this human 444 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,800 experience we have. We go through maybe when it 445 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,360 comes to responsibilities and you know, the moment you're 446 00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:31,480 born, there's expectations that are the expectations that are 447 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,440 put in you. You know, the things that go 448 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,400 through life. If it's, you know, depression, 449 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:40,080 have the, the relationships you have, that is, that is a lot to 450 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,120 carry. But also a lot of the times that 451 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:47,360 is what that's character building in a way in a world 452 00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:50,800 that to a large extent you didn't choose to be in, or maybe 453 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:55,320 you did, I don't know. So I for me, that symbolises a 454 00:27:55,320 --> 00:28:00,320 crown and a crown that is on your head, that carries you, 455 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,240 that carries that carries what's in you, what that carries what's 456 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,520 in your hand, that carries all your trouble, trials, 457 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,040 tribulations, the joy, the the good, the bad. 458 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,960 That's a heavy crown, But it's how you know, it's how you wear 459 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,280 it, it's how you go. It's you getting to a point of 460 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,520 acknowledging the different facets and aspects of who it is 461 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:27,080 that you are and making it, you know, making lemonade out of 462 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:28,120 lemons. God damn. 463 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,680 A simple phrase, but I guess it kind of disappear that. 464 00:28:32,120 --> 00:28:34,880 So yes, if for me, it's at the crown. 465 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:41,640 The crown may be heavy, but the more we delabel ourselves in, in 466 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,080 what people have labelled us, the more we delabel ourselves, 467 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,920 then the lighter it becomes. And you know you, you, you 468 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,960 people's opinion, the opinions people have on you are not, is 469 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:54,880 not necessarily the opinion you have of yourself. 470 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:59,640 I think for me that for years that crown has felt heavy and 471 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:04,360 getting to this point where I'm even able to have, you know, to 472 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,200 talk like this because I was never actually a talker. 473 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,400 I was never I was. I've always been shy finds 474 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,320 hiding behind the curtains of couches, hiding behind in my 475 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,120 band. We had security numbers, you 476 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,400 know, I, I, I don't need to stand out. 477 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,920 So, so that that crown was heavy. 478 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,800 So just being able to to to be to be here and which is some 479 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:33,000 sort of therapy for me. The labelling and talking about 480 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,400 this is is, is that so heavy is a crown. 481 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,880 Probably I'll change it to heavy was a crown at some point. 482 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,360 I was enraptured by that explanation, but something 483 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,400 really locked in with my understanding where you said 484 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,640 that. The more that you understand 485 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,960 yourself and relinquish these expectations that other people 486 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,800 have of you, the lighter the crown becomes and the more maybe 487 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:01,040 enjoyable the crown where it becomes and the more it feels 488 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,720 right and correct. And I'm embellishing what you 489 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,240 said now, but I really think that. 490 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,280 Visual. In my mind is very clear, you 491 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,880 know, as we move through our 30s forties, whatever age path we're 492 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,080 on, it's like, no, no, These things that burden me for so 493 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,360 long, these expectations of others, expectations I had of 494 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:25,400 myself, just like kind of. Shedding and so and also I will 495 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:30,800 say with, with the album itself, I wrote it at a point, I, I, I 496 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,520 was so angry. I was so angry. 497 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,040 When you listen to it, it's very I was angry. 498 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,520 I was sad, I was frustrated. What were you angry about? 499 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,680 Everyone I believe in angry at the fact that I had to write an 500 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,800 album like that. In as much as it was freeing. 501 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,600 It was the first time being in studio just doing a solo 502 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:57,440 project, so I hated that I had to get that out of the way for 503 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:03,000 me to feel for me to feel full. You know, I was just like this. 504 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,120 Why can't I just write about? Oh my God, it's at best. 505 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:07,760 Well, I did write about a beautiful day this. 506 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,720 Love affair has been weak in my knees and eyes. 507 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,080 You know, but why can't it just be, you know, just light and, 508 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,560 and all it was, it was very emotional and it was very, it 509 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,840 was, it was very weird. But I think I needed to do that 510 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,960 to purge, to purge some feelings that I had and to just give me 511 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,080 like a come to Jesus moment, if you can call it that. 512 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,760 I, I listen to it now and I'm just saying, and I'm just 513 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,600 saying, Oh my God, why do I sound like, why? 514 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,640 Like, why am I sounding like that? 515 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,280 Because I can also remember just, you know, the more writing 516 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,520 and being in student, not having, not having my bandmates 517 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,200 around me where we could bounce ideas off each other. 518 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,680 This was this. This was me laid bare. 519 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,840 I'm setting myself free. Bring the authorities. 520 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,800 Shit talking jealousy won't take a toll on me. 521 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,640 Did you collaborate with, did you find a partner to 522 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,720 collaborate on songwriting or production with? 523 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,080 Or was it really? Yeah, yeah. 524 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,480 Yeah, yeah. I had about like 2 songwriters 525 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:25,680 who were amazing. And my friend who's a producer I 526 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,920 did have, I did have collaborators, but it, it was 527 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,160 the first time working with them. 528 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:36,160 It was very, very, very foreign. And also I had to be there and 529 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,960 open with with people that I've haven't worked with before. 530 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,120 So that was quite interesting, yeah. 531 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,360 You were totally laid bare, whereas in the band you, like 532 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,000 you mentioned, you're hiding behind counters. 533 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,360 You've got these three other people who you can spar with and 534 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,840 share the load, and it's a completely different experience. 535 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,440 But it sounded like you were putting yourself through therapy 536 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,040 by making that album. You didn't enjoy it all the 537 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:01,160 time. It was making you angry. 538 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,520 It's making you sad. But you knew that you had to 539 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,320 kind of push through and. And you got through it. 540 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,880 And I can totally understand why you might hear that now. 541 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:10,640 And I don't want to put words into your mouth, but, like, 542 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,000 cringe in a way because it's so specific to that chapter of your 543 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,600 life, which even though it was only three or four years ago, 544 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,800 you've clearly grown so much since then already. 545 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:21,160 Yeah. Yeah, I had. 546 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,800 I'm all the better for it that that's a part of my life that I 547 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,640 will of course always remember and I'm so grateful for for that 548 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,440 deal. Doesn't matter what feelings I 549 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,000 had about it, but it's something that needed to be done. 550 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,440 Is there a specific track or tracks which feel like those big 551 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,960 emotional turning points? Wow, loser. 552 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:49,120 Sometimes I feel like a loser, outcast, absurd and amusing. 553 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:55,320 Crazy how far life's come along. I reach for the stars and catch 554 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:56,200 it. Song. 555 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,560 Can't shake the feeling I'll lose it all. 556 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,160 Camera. Stage lights on. 557 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,400 Find my mark, my check done, curtain up, giving my all 558 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,440 beautiful faces mass applause. Leave the stage 10 feet tall 559 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,000 after party chase the dawn with the morning console. 560 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,320 Drove smoke and mirrors out the door. 561 00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:19,040 So that yeah, that's very. Then I'm just like. 562 00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:25,239 That I'll still sing my song. I'll sing it all night long. 563 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:30,639 If you feel you don't be long. There's room enough for 564 00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:34,880 everyone. So it's basically, I think of it 565 00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:37,239 like to like to make fun of that song. 566 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,280 I call it the book of the book of Lamentations, the song of 567 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:46,199 Lamentations, because I'm just like, Oh my God, mew mew mew. 568 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,760 But then also I still need to put up this front and you could 569 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,000 I need to go on stage. I need to be this person for 570 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,520 other people. And then you know, it's all 571 00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:58,840 smoke and mirrors. But. 572 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:00,760 You know what they still. Room for you. 573 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,920 This is room for everybody, so it's that song means a lot to 574 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:06,840 me. I love, I love loser. 575 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,960 I love stereo. It's. 576 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:10,440 Been a long time. Coming. 577 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,760 Yeah. I know what it took to get here. 578 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,080 That, Yeah, really special to me, that song. 579 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:24,680 It's been a long time coming. Only I know what it took to get 580 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:26,560 here. Stereo. 581 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:31,160 So stereo is actually when we started the interview when we 582 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,720 were talking about, you know, Michael Jackson and and Thriller 583 00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:37,000 and the boom box and all of that. 584 00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:42,960 So stereo paints that picture of that time, time when I I was 585 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,960 discovering who it is as, as an artist. 586 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,240 Or rather when I figured out like, oh wow, I can make a 587 00:35:49,240 --> 00:35:52,000 joyful noise here and there. So I guess I can sing. 588 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,920 So stereo is just yeah. All right, well, something you 589 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,880 touched on a little bit earlier was also when, if at all, you 590 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:04,120 might feel ready to make new music again soundtracks this 591 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,760 chapter of your life. Are you feeling particularly 592 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,360 inspired music wise, or are you focusing your energies on other 593 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:11,120 outputs? Oh. 594 00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:16,040 No, I'm inspired now, but I'm going to make more bare like 595 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:23,520 music that's laid bare that is acoustic piano and just a choral 596 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,920 vocal airing because that is my background being in church. 597 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,920 Yeah, damn. I I, yeah, I went to church so. 598 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,640 Is that not how you met your bandmate? 599 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,120 Was there the club at school that you were part of? 600 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,320 Yes, it was. So I transferred from a 601 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,320 different school which was further from Nairobi. 602 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:49,200 So I got to this school called Upper Hill School and I was in a 603 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,480 class, of course, and I was sat in front of my would be my 604 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,520 future bandmate. So she we knew each other 605 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,600 because we're kind of related. So he'd, he asked me a silly 606 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,200 question about pocket money or lunch money because he was just 607 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,760 like, he's the one who keeps lunch money for the newcomers or 608 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,080 some shit like that. But then I was just like onto 609 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,560 yeah, onto the end. Like my mom told me about you 610 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,360 and she told me to look for you anyway because he knew I could 611 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,360 say. And he was just like, would you 612 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,360 like to join this group called Voice in the Light? 613 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,560 So Voice in the Light is like a legacy boy band that was in that 614 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,600 high school ever since the early 90s. 615 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:30,680 So every time the seniors leave, they find younger, younger, 616 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,280 younger kids who would feel their positions. 617 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,720 So I joined and we kept on singing till we were done with 618 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,720 high school. So it was me and him and another 619 00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:44,880 and Savara who we were also in the same school and we were done 620 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,600 with that and after high school continued and the rest is 621 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,440 history. Do you think that there's scope 622 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:56,080 in the future to you as this more comfortable, authentic 623 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,800 version of yourself who you've worked really hard to achieve to 624 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,840 reunite with your bandmates once more in the future? 625 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,120 And I'm just thinking of when you talked about how when you 626 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,040 would perform, you had all of these things that you were 627 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,520 worrying about or that you didn't feel like you could fully 628 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,360 be yourself. And I wonder, is there a version 629 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,520 of Trimano in the future who can be on stage with his bandmates, 630 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,440 but as this fully formed person living in your truth? 631 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,160 Oh. My God, yes, we, we still talk 632 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,560 almost every day because we have our other businesses, our other 633 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,320 businesses that we run. That keeps us in communication, 634 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,720 of course, but Oh my God, definitely. 635 00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:35,560 Because also we still have one more album in US. 636 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,440 Well, we still, we still owe 'cause we were assigned to 637 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,480 Universal and, and so just all this all assigned to Universal 638 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,200 Music and we still, we still owe them an album. 639 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,520 So we kind of need to, so we kind of need, we're going to 640 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,840 need to do it maybe some sooner rather than later. 641 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,200 But Oh yeah, definitely that's going to happen. 642 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:59,200 We'll be we'll be all the better for it because we needed this 643 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:04,400 time to go and just gather ourselves, figure out who it who 644 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,680 it is that we are individually without, without the I'll be 645 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,440 without the band, because that's the only thing I've ever known 646 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,720 apart from like a little, a little stint at a radio job that 647 00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:16,440 I had. This is the only job that I had. 648 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,480 It was very scary to think that I'm going to be alone. 649 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,120 Oh my God, like, so it's kind of like I'm starting again, but I'm 650 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,800 not, but I am. We will be back at some point. 651 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,880 Shimano, I'd love to know the artists that you picked. 652 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,680 I'd love to know who the artist is and why you picked them. 653 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:42,920 Freddie Mercury wow, 11 prize. One gold, 1 golden glance of 654 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:52,160 what should be. Let me say with Freddie Mercury, 655 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,480 I love, there was a time I had a stint with where where was 656 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,480 performing on stage with with half a mic, with half a 657 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,240 microphone so that I could so that I could make Freddie 658 00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:04,920 Mercury my God. I was just going to say that I 659 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,560 remember watching Freddie Mercury on TV when I was a kid 660 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,400 and thinking, why is he doing that? 661 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:15,240 Like there's no practical benefit of having that half mic. 662 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,560 It's just not helping anyone. But also it was. 663 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,080 It's interesting because we also have a history. 664 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:25,120 So we used to have like our the 2nd president of this country 665 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:29,120 who used to carry around like a like a sceptre or something like 666 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:33,080 that, like a little thing that he used to like raise and like 667 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,000 whenever there's like he was a bit of a dictator. 668 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,560 So like he selected and like during like national days and 669 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,320 all. So the having hung UPS of that 670 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:45,200 and seeing Freddie Mercury that for me correlation is that I 671 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,520 just also say, oh, so I can be camped with my little little 672 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,760 except over here. I'm going to take it away from 673 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,160 the dictator's hands and I'm going to make it gay. 674 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,760 It's. A and you have, we have just 675 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,280 talked at length about, you know, your artistic chapter 676 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,120 called Heavy is the Crown. There's a bit of a royal kind of 677 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,880 emblem theme going on here. Freddie Mercury. 678 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,440 Why is he an icon to you? And specifically in terms of 679 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,480 someone who's soundtracked your life as a queer person. 680 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,480 Amazing because first of all, you was born, he's born in this 681 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,680 part of the world. Amazing how he managed and you 682 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:25,640 know, he, he's just a testament. Of course, your, your geography 683 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:29,160 and your surroundings can really, can really have a huge 684 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,320 impact on who it is that you become as a who it is that you 685 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,760 become as an adult, as a person, as someone who finds a purpose 686 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,160 in this world. Because I doubt if he probably 687 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,880 stayed in this part of the world, he'd be Freddie Mercury 688 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:48,600 and his his his stage presence, how he spoke, how he moved 689 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,120 people, how he commanded the stage, stuff like that. 690 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,360 Just who he was to a lot of people and who he was to his 691 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,520 bandmates. And just eventually how he left 692 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:03,240 us that was yeah, that that was that was jarring. 693 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,320 But I remember when I first watched post a video of them 694 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,480 when he came on, when he came on stage with all the God, what do 695 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,360 you call it with the cake. That was Oh my God, I want to 696 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:14,280 break free. I want. 697 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:25,480 To break free. You covered a lot of ground 698 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,160 there. Oh yeah, they. 699 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,560 I was exposed to a lot of Queen early on because my dad is a 700 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,480 huge Queen fan actually. Looking back now, like the fact 701 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:36,720 the band itself was even called Queen. 702 00:42:36,720 --> 00:42:43,160 Queen, I know. Hello and I I've spoken about 703 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,880 this in many interviews so if a listener has heard this all 704 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,160 before I'm sorry. But like my dad loved a lot of 705 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,560 really and loves actually a lot of really big queer icons, like 706 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:58,280 his favourite artists like Elton John and Queen and and a lot of 707 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:03,720 straight men, a lot of straight people love Elton John, Queen, 708 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:08,720 the list goes on. And I think especially late 70s, 709 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,560 eighties wasn't a perfect time for queer people. 710 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,680 Like, a lot of really awful things were happening around HIV 711 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,000 AIDS, which ties into the Freddie Mercury story. 712 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:22,400 But there was so much freedom of gender expression, at least in 713 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:26,880 like, you know, pop stars just feeling like they could be camp 714 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,560 and fabulous. And the crowds adored them for 715 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,920 IT. People weren't saying get that F 716 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,560 slur off my TV. Maybe they were saying that 717 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:38,880 actually. But we now look back and see 718 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:43,040 some of the biggest icons of that time period were enormous 719 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,360 homosexuals who a lot of straight people loved. 720 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,680 And Freddie Mercury is maybe one of the very best representatives 721 00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:53,920 of that. That how his talents were, Yes, 722 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,680 they were like, for want of a better word, God-given. 723 00:43:57,680 --> 00:43:59,800 They were innate to him. They were natural talents. 724 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:05,440 But his queerness had to have been a major ingredient in 725 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,080 channelling that. That exactly. 726 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:14,000 Stage quality and craft, and the ability to hold the audience in 727 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,080 the palm of his hand. Came, came through as himself, 728 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:21,120 like this is what you see, is what you get, you know, 729 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:41,800 externally, internally. And his bandmates clearly would 730 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,560 have recognised that very early on and would have realised that, 731 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:49,320 you know, it's their job to platform Freddie and be like, 732 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,000 look, we've got to make Freddie look good because we're not 733 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:53,400 going to be able to compete with him. 734 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,600 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very hard to compete with a 735 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,720 with a queer superstar, especially if you're few other 736 00:44:58,720 --> 00:45:02,800 bandmates are just straight. That's the quote I'm using for 737 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:08,280 the promo for this episode. What are some of your favourite 738 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:12,160 Queen of Freddie Mercury songs? Bohemian Rhapsody, of course. 739 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:13,440 Is this the? Real life? 740 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:24,640 Is this just fantasy caught in a landslide to escape from 741 00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:30,040 reality? I did a rendition of We Are the 742 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:34,080 Champions in one of my shows, which was actually quite 743 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,800 amazing. So I studied my show cause did a 744 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,280 song that I did it with my band that's called Dollar Dollar 745 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:40,880 Fancy. Cars. 746 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,680 Cuban cigars. Hanging with the superstar. 747 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:50,880 She needs money. So it's kind of like the song is 748 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,400 about someone's talking about sex workers. 749 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,440 And it was just, it's one of those things like, yeah, of 750 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,040 course, like a gay guy is going to have a song that's, you know, 751 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,120 talking about sex workers and all of that. 752 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,360 So it was interesting. So it was that then it LED into 753 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,200 We Are the Champions. It was, it was, it was quite 754 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:22,600 interesting. All right, we're about to wrap 755 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:27,240 up, and I've got a few more big questions for you before we do 756 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,080 tomorrow. You've heavy as the crown was a 757 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,440 former kind of emblem of yours, but I can't help but think you 758 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,880 do. Whether you want to or not, you 759 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:40,000 inevitably do carry a burden or or is it a joy? 760 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:44,360 Is it a gift of being such a trailblazer as a queer artist in 761 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:50,280 Kenya, in Africa, you know the world sees you as this bold 762 00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:55,680 ground shaker who is living their authentic self and and it 763 00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,480 could be a burden or it could be a joy, and maybe it's a bit of 764 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:00,680 both. But how does that feel being a 765 00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:05,360 role model to other queer people in Kenya and Africa and beyond? 766 00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:09,080 Well, in the beginning, I really didn't like the term role model 767 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,240 because I kind of didn't want to be called that because I've 768 00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,960 always assumed that carried a lot of responsibility. 769 00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:19,040 So to an extent it is unsettling even up until now. 770 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:23,560 But what I can say is that I've learned to, I'm still learning 771 00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:28,400 to settle in that that's going to be my life anyway. 772 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:32,000 You know, just me feeling unsettled a lot of the times 773 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:36,200 because it just is what it is. So yeah, I'm just learning to 774 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:42,080 sit in it and hoping that whatever I do is I am I truly 775 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,920 content and happy and am I doing it when I'm doing it for myself? 776 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,440 I would hope that when someone looks at me from that point, 777 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,720 they either see themselves in me or see something that would 778 00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:55,200 reveal something about them that would make them all the better 779 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:59,640 for who it is that they are. Is there a queer charity, 780 00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,080 initiative or organisation in Kenya perhaps that you'd like to 781 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,480 give a shout out to I. Would like to like Queer African 782 00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,360 network, they're so amazing. They're fairly new. 783 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:15,120 I did my heavy as a Crown show at their spot a few months ago. 784 00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:20,160 It's just the just this amazing young queers who started Co 785 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:24,840 working space where it's not where they can have workshops or 786 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:27,720 queer people who have their own businesses that they're running. 787 00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:31,360 They can just come there. And it's one of those places 788 00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,440 that is a safe space. And it's amazing just to see 789 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,360 what the young queers in this country are doing. 790 00:48:37,720 --> 00:48:42,120 And it's a far cry from what it was even just five years ago. 791 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,880 So yeah, Queer African Network. Love you guys so much. 792 00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,520 We could have talked for many hours more, but you've got a we. 793 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,240 Really could. Buck release party to prepare 794 00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:55,320 for and perhaps we'll reconnect when you are in Sydney in a 795 00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:56,880 month or so, yeah. You can have me again. 796 00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:02,720 OK Shimano, you are queer and thank you very much for your 797 00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:04,960 tracks. Thank you for having me. 798 00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,120 Thank you for being such a gracious host. 799 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:19,720 You can find links to Tremana's Instagram, his memoir Heavy as 800 00:49:19,720 --> 00:49:23,760 the Crown and tickets to his upcoming One Man show in Sydney 801 00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,720 all in the episode show notes. If you have a suggestion for 802 00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:31,080 someone fascinating you know who I could interview, send me an 803 00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:33,400 e-mail at tracksofourqueers@gmail.com. 804 00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:38,240 This episode of Tracks of Our Queers was recorded and edited 805 00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:40,520 on the Garagoy Land. See you next time.