1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,480 Hello, welcome to Tracks of Our Queers. 2 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,720 My name is Andy Gott and each episode I chat to a fascinating 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,800 queer person about one song, one album and one artist that have 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:23,600 soundtracked their life. Saba Chaudhary is an 5 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,320 award-winning yet reluctant activist on most things trans, 6 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:29,400 brown and hairy. Their words. 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,320 Just to be clear, their community organising began at 8 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,800 university where they Co founded Trans Pride Brighton, the first 9 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:37,800 trans Pride event anywhere in the UK. 10 00:00:38,480 --> 00:00:42,280 Since then, Saba has spoken at Pride festivals worldwide from 11 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,040 Toronto to Brussels, while serving as a youth work 12 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,080 practitioner at the charity Gendered Intelligence for 10 13 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,960 years. Their Ted talk, being Brown, 14 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,800 trans, Muslim and Proud, has hundreds of thousands of views 15 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,200 online, and they vice chair the board of trustees for the 16 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,360 Inclusive Mosque Initiative. I am mildly fatigued just 17 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,400 talking the CV out and I haven't even got to the go go dancing. 18 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,960 While Saba may be a tireless advocate for some of the most 19 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,480 underrepresented parts of the queer community, they thankfully 20 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,280 still find time and joy in music. 21 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,360 It's a genuine privilege to steal an hour with some of our 22 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,080 hardest working advocates to discuss one of our favourite 23 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,880 topics, and I hope you enjoy Saba selections. 24 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,080 Producing this podcast is A1 Queer band and listener 25 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,160 contributions grow a huge way in keeping the light switched on. 26 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,240 If you're interested in supporting me, you can do so by 27 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:35,600 buying me a coffee through the link in the show notes. 28 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,360 Alternatively, leaving a rating or review is also greatly 29 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,120 appreciated. It's a free and easy way to help 30 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,000 the podcast reach new listeners. So thank you very much in 31 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:54,280 advance for your support Over to Saba Saba Choudry. 32 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,680 Welcome to Tracks of our Queers. Oh my gosh, thank you so much 33 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,240 for having me. It's very early for you where 34 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,040 you are, so I you've already acknowledged that you don't need 35 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,160 caffeine in your daily practise, which I love and admire. 36 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,440 I'm hoping I'm going to be that start to your day that's just 37 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:11,920 going to set the rest of the day off. 38 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:13,840 Yes, you will be my caffeine shot. 39 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:15,480 I'm ready. OK, all right. 40 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:17,680 Brilliant. Tell me about your earliest 41 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,800 musical memory. I'm going to transport you back 42 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:27,400 to the early 90s. I'm in my living room in West 43 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:28,880 London. So where I where I grew up, 44 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,120 where I was born and raised. And also for context, I Punjabi 45 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,640 Pakistani. My mum and dad both speak a mix 46 00:02:36,640 --> 00:02:42,200 of Urdu and Punjabi and it's annoying to the point where if I 47 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,000 ask them, can you just speak to me and Urdu, they'll switch to 48 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:46,600 Punjabi and then they'll go back to English. 49 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:48,840 So I never really got to know the differences between the two. 50 00:02:49,640 --> 00:02:53,560 But saying that, we, well, my mum in particular, she loves 51 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,880 Bollywood music and Bollywood films, Hindi music. 52 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:02,080 So in my household growing up, there was always some sort of 53 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,680 Bollywood music playing. We had this little, very square, 54 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,360 dinky little cassette player. And there was always like a 55 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,560 stack of tapes that we would get like pirated in Pakistan 56 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,240 whenever we would make, like, our annual journeys there. 57 00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:19,160 Yeah. And I just loved it. 58 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:23,160 Like, I would Just Dance and I'd know all the words even though I 59 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:24,480 didn't understand what they meant. 60 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,080 My mum would do her very colourful translations and she 61 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,200 would, she would like, encourage me and my sister. 62 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,480 So I have a twin sister. She would encourage us both to 63 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:34,160 dance. You know, it didn't matter if we 64 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,240 were singing like the girl parts or the boy parts. 65 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,360 She would turn up the stereo so loud. 66 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,520 Like, I remember feeling like the bass and my tiny little body 67 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:44,400 just being like, Oh my God, what is that feeling? 68 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,440 So yeah, my earliest music memories are Bollywood. 69 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,040 That is a magical memory. Do you have a particular like 70 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,280 artist or track that springs to mind? 71 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,880 Oh yes, yes, yes. The track that I feel like it's 72 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,280 almost like also my gender identity at some points. 73 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,200 Is this track called Mocha from the film Kahalan. 74 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:17,470 I think it is. It's a Tamil movie, came out in 75 00:04:17,470 --> 00:04:20,790 1994. But this song is iconic. 76 00:04:20,790 --> 00:04:25,360 Like I think across South Asia, you could play it and people 77 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,680 would know it and it's iconic because it's so saucy. 78 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:33,640 And the dancer, he's such a famous exceptional dancer. 79 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,840 Like you can see his inspiration is like from Michael Jackson, 80 00:04:36,840 --> 00:04:40,760 like such saucy, slick moves. For me also, the song was 81 00:04:40,840 --> 00:04:44,480 interesting because it combined Urdu as well and and it was 82 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,720 thermal. It was this real mishmash of of 83 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,160 cultures. And yeah, it was, it was great. 84 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,880 I just watched this man dance and I was like, I want to be 85 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,560 him. I want to be that enticing. 86 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,200 Yeah, it's an excellent song. Hot. 87 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,480 So, OK, so you talked about the music that your mum and dad were 88 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,320 listening to and, you know, bringing cassettes home from 89 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:06,280 Pakistan as you were growing older through as you were moving 90 00:05:06,280 --> 00:05:10,000 through childhood into your teens, how were you seeking out 91 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,800 music for yourself and figuring out your own taste in music? 92 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,880 I think I was quite lucky in the sense that I grew up in a family 93 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:21,000 that was quite musical like. My auntie is a singer and she 94 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,880 plays the harmonium and she's quite well known, so you know, 95 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,440 she's been a radio show she tells hosts her own singing 96 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,320 groups. So she's always had some music 97 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,400 playing and singing to me and my sister and we grew up in 98 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,360 Hounslow. It's quite a South Asian area, 99 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,960 so even at the local cinema there's always Bodywood playing 100 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,120 and it's just normal to Gun St and hear Punjabi music blurring 101 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,200 out of obnoxious boys cars and old Hindi music playing outside 102 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,280 of shops when you walk down the High Street and stuff. 103 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:53,400 But I think it was a kind of maybe hit 11 years old that time 104 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,960 where I was going from primary school to secondary school. 105 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,680 I don't know how to describe it. Maybe a lot of other LGBTQ 106 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,320 people will understand this feeling of just knowing that 107 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,840 some feelings inside you are just not like, quote unquote, 108 00:06:06,840 --> 00:06:08,760 normal or the same as other people. 109 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:10,960 And you don't know what it is. You don't know what those words 110 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,880 are, but you know that, oh, I shouldn't feel this way. 111 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,040 And maybe it's because we don't see people like us expressing 112 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,480 different like gender expressions or sexualities that 113 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,520 we know that it's not Yeah, quote unquote normal or fits the 114 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,680 norm. But I think it was around that 115 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,880 time where I I was feeling different that I started to 116 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:38,200 explore more angsty music. My first album I think I bought 117 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,280 ever was pure, say hearsay. What's that band? 118 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:46,440 They were like one of those bands at one yes, which is not 119 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,720 where I found my angsty music, but. 120 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:50,920 It was after that I'm like, what? 121 00:06:51,280 --> 00:07:01,200 No, no. I just had to like I remember 122 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,480 picking I'm going to HMV and how's the High Street? 123 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,200 I'm picking up the CD, but I picked up three as well at the 124 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:13,320 same time and it was Limp Bizkit, Linkin Park and Spine 125 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:27,750 Shank, like all new metal music. And it was just like this world 126 00:07:27,750 --> 00:07:31,920 just opened up to me. I think it maybe I had picked up 127 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,760 a Kerrang magazine or maybe watched Kerrang, the channel, 128 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,480 the music channel, which made me like want to discover these 129 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:41,200 bands. I think I maybe was also on 130 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,040 Myspace. So it was just like this kind of 131 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:47,600 combination of like different avenues of finding this world of 132 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,480 emo music, metal music, rock music, and people who were 133 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:53,720 different, people who looked different, who sounded 134 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,640 different, who had different ideas about who would they 135 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,520 wanted to be and were just like, yeah, like, this is who I 136 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,760 fucking am. This is how I fucking feel like. 137 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:02,960 It was great. It was great. 138 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,480 I love that it's all just so very carang and I've got 139 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,280 questions on that later so we will get there. 140 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,400 OK, so a little bit about your work and what you do now. 141 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,520 I've been compiling a bit of a Saba CV if you will. 142 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:22,020 You are from what I understand, a community organiser, a Co 143 00:08:22,020 --> 00:08:25,680 founder of various pride events across the UKA sought after. 144 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker Hello, welcome to Tracks to our quiz. 145 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,880 An author, a published author, a youth worker, a counsellor, a 146 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,120 psychotherapist. You also emailed me yesterday 147 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,520 asking if we could talk a little bit earlier on your Saturday 148 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:39,240 morning so you could go for a park run. 149 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,159 And you are in the deepest depths of December. 150 00:08:42,159 --> 00:08:45,400 I'll have stated on the record so and I'm also sure I've missed 151 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,200 out at least 18 other things that you do. 152 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,320 So where do you find your energy? 153 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,280 Yeah, when you when you say it like that, I feel tired. 154 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:57,120 It's just listening to it. I mean, I actually changed 155 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,680 career path this summer. So I've been working for 10 156 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:01,960 years, a national trans youth charity called Gender 157 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:03,880 Intelligence. And I was also practising 158 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,520 psychotherapy, doing other forms of like guest support work, 159 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:12,040 community work. But over the last, I guess 3 or 160 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,840 4 years since the pandemic really, we all know life became 161 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,240 harder, especially for vulnerable trans young people 162 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:20,880 who were the people I was predominantly supporting. 163 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,120 Things became really hard and our, our work changed like the 164 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,080 texture of our workers, youth workers and our position as 165 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:32,400 counsellors changed in the sense that we needed to become more 166 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:37,480 resilient, more flexible. You know, we, we, we just had to 167 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,800 become used to working with crisis alongside crisis because 168 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:43,920 so many things have been changing the last four years, 169 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,640 not just around like the cost of living crisis, but like trans 170 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:51,240 rights, trans healthcare. So that's all to say that the 171 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,520 work became harder for people like us who were looking after 172 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,120 those people. I realised that I need to take 173 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,920 breaks and I did and my workplace really encouraged it. 174 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,280 But I think this summer I was like, actually, if I want to 175 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,920 keep doing this work for longer, I need to take the proper step 176 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,360 back. And so I didn't want to hit a 177 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:11,840 point of burnout, which I saw some of my friends and 178 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,120 colleagues hit. I didn't want to get to burnout 179 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,600 and then be like, oh, I have to stop working now or I have to 180 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,200 step back now. You know, I wanted to kind of 181 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,040 guess like, trick take control of the ending, just have more of 182 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,760 a decision in what work looks like for me. 183 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,320 And yeah, it's felt really good. So I stopped working there in 184 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,760 the summer and since then, I've just been freelancing, doing a 185 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,200 lot of work around all of the things you said, but actually 186 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,040 having more time to do things like volunteering to speak on 187 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,960 podcasts like this and talk about other things that really 188 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:40,880 nourish me. Like I fucking love talking 189 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,480 about music. Like it will never feature in 190 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,240 any of these roles that I do. But get me at a house party. 191 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:47,800 I will be trying to steal the aux chord. 192 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,160 I will be joining your Spotify guest session. 193 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,760 I will be putting on some background music and no one else 194 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:54,360 will care, but I will be dancing. 195 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,760 So yeah, I, I do have the time now. 196 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,160 It's what I'm trying to say. And I feel very privileged and 197 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,560 lucky to be able to do that, you know, with, you know, I have 198 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,400 secure housing. I have the financial stability 199 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,880 to be able to, you know, kind of more pick and choose where I put 200 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,520 my work and my time. Now, I wouldn't have been able 201 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,000 to do this if it wasn't for friends around me saying, like, 202 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,840 you do work too much, like, you know, these things are on your 203 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:20,080 mind. You know, you haven't been able 204 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,200 to relax. You're sleeping isn't OK, Like 205 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,440 people to notice like this isn't what you are. 206 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,080 Like when you're well, you know, when you're well, you are, you 207 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,160 know, yeah, you're like this. And you know, it's a combination 208 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,160 of things that mean I'm able to find that time now. 209 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,600 It's wonderful that you do have friends in your life who can be 210 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,040 that transparent and honest with you, with your best interests at 211 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:41,640 heart. And you know, we've joked a bit 212 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:46,240 about this Run, but like exercise is in the mix with all 213 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:47,840 of that as well, with sleep and everything. 214 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:49,840 And it's a bit of a cliche really, isn't it? 215 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:53,000 But you know, when you get on a plane and the instructions are 216 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:57,960 for parents with a baby, you put your own oxygen mask on 1st. 217 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,360 It it really is that kind of applicable life lesson that if 218 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:06,120 you are going to be there as a support to trans youth who look 219 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,920 to you for wisdom and advice and a myriad of people who you help, 220 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:12,600 you have to be helping yourself first. 221 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:17,520 Exactly. Yeah, and it wasn't like I had 222 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:19,920 to take a break because I was supporting trans youth. 223 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,960 It was like, it's the society, it's the world at large, it's 224 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:24,880 the institutional oppression that we're up against. 225 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,240 And actually so many of the transient people and the 226 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:29,640 families as well, they were so happy for me. 227 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,280 They were like amazing, like do that, you know. 228 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,640 And I realised actually this is also about role modelling as 229 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:36,480 well and. Showing. 230 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,320 You can say no and take a step back like, yes, these are 231 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,240 beautiful relationships and yes, I'm going to miss you and I'm 232 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:47,400 going to look after myself as well so I can keep doing this 233 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:48,960 work that I'm doing and be here for you. 234 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,680 So you've already mentioned you are that aux cable. 235 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,040 I'm not going to say thief because I'm that person too. 236 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,400 You're you're an aux cable enthusiast. 237 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:03,440 Would you say that music is part of your support system and 238 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,520 energy source? Yeah, actually that's a really 239 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,120 good way of putting it. You know, I love to dance. 240 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,160 I kind of not trained in dance or anything, but it's just, 241 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,520 yeah, like I'm dancing in the living room at my family house 242 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,480 to tear it up on the dance floor with my sister, you know, a 243 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,160 movement is really good. And the thing about Punjabi and 244 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:26,120 bhangra music is so energetic. Like I can't not move whilst I'm 245 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,760 listening to it. And it just feels like such a 246 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:35,000 release, I guess, as a trans person, really enjoy feeling my 247 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,040 body in a way that isn't gendered or that isn't 248 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,920 dysphoric. And dancing, being able to think 249 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,080 about where my feet are going, you know, what I'm doing with my 250 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:45,360 arms. It's just so great. 251 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,480 And I guess it's also kind of why I like exercise as well. 252 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:53,800 Like, you know, this kind of really deliberate movements that 253 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,600 I just feel very intuitive. But yeah, dancing is really 254 00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:59,960 lovely. I know that I'm not feeling too 255 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:03,800 good when I haven't been out for a dance or something like that 256 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,440 or exercise. And I'm like, you need to make 257 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,480 some time for this supper. Yeah, the endorphins are real. 258 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,480 You also call yourself a reluctant activist. 259 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,560 Do you mind just speaking a little bit to that reluctance? 260 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,880 Are you simply exhausted as you've already mentioned? 261 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,080 I When did I start calling myself a reluctant activist? 262 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:27,720 I think it was during this real wave of panels and talks and 263 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,800 stuff that I was doing where I was talking about the same 264 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,560 things again and again. Being a trans person of colour, 265 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,240 being a queer Muslim, this is our experiences. 266 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,920 This is why it sucks. This is what you need to do to 267 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,320 be better. And I think The thing is, I 268 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,600 actually got someone called me an activist before I realised 269 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,640 what that was or that was indeed what I was doing. 270 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,560 And I just kind of resented it because I was like, I don't want 271 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:54,080 to be talking about these things. 272 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,680 I don't. And I think for people on the 273 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:01,280 margins, we don't want to be telling other people how to do 274 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,280 better. We want to be thriving. 275 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,920 We want to be. Yeah, like dancing, talking 276 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,280 about music, you know, being creative, finding other things 277 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,640 that nourish us. So I say it as a point now to 278 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,560 just say like, I don't want this to be activism. 279 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:23,240 I want this just to be fun and creative and things that give me 280 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,560 happiness. So yeah, I think it will stick. 281 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:28,560 I think it's always a useful point to reflect on. 282 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:30,640 Do you, I mean, do you feel the same way? 283 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:35,280 Do you get that? Gosh, I no, I could never put 284 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:39,640 myself in your no what I know I have never thought about any of 285 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,240 this as activism. As I said to you before I 286 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,480 pressed record. This conversation is the kind of 287 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,800 thing that I want to be in a pub with someone just shouting at 288 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:50,880 each other loudly about music that we love. 289 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,640 And I just feel really lucky that when I asked people to hop 290 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,400 on a record accordingly, they say yes. 291 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:02,400 But to your point earlier about music being such a huge source 292 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,080 of fun for you, and you felt like perhaps when you were so 293 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,160 busy with all of the work that you were doing and it was so 294 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,960 heavy that you weren't spending enough time on the things that 295 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,080 gave you joy. I feel very privileged when I 296 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,920 get to talk to people about something that most people 297 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:21,000 generally deeply love. Like it's rare to find someone 298 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,600 who's ambivalent about music. And you know, as I say in the 299 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:30,720 bloody boring intro in the start of every episode, while music is 300 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,760 universal to the human condition, it's it's a human 301 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:35,640 thing. I do believe that queer people 302 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,080 have a very special relationship with it, whether it's to some of 303 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:40,920 the themes that you've already touched on that I'm sure we'll 304 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,080 talk about when we go into your selections about your own 305 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,360 journey and identity as a trans person. 306 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:51,120 I'm sure that music has been there all along kind of on the 307 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,320 periphery. And I think that experiences 308 00:16:54,320 --> 00:17:01,120 like that lead queer people to having a special view of music 309 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,720 and how it forms our memories and touches our emotions and 310 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:09,040 growth, and especially when we go back to music from previous 311 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,880 chapters of our lives. But I'm waffling a little bit 312 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,319 now, so I'm going to bring it back to you. 313 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,079 No, I like what you're saying. You know, I can't remember who I 314 00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:19,040 was talking to you about this the other day, but I was just 315 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,720 kind of reiterating that I think as queer people, as trans 316 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,640 people, we just because of the different ways we've had to 317 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,359 understand ourselves, we do have a different way of viewing the 318 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,840 world and interacting with it and breaking it apart, not 319 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,200 seeing things as binaries or figs. 320 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,840 So I get what you're saying. Yeah, of course we're going to 321 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,400 have the same perspective when it comes to music. 322 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,280 We do not actually have to talk about this because it's very 323 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,880 heavy for a Saturday morning for you, but it does tie into music. 324 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,200 I want to note that you also include in your bio that you're 325 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,240 a griever after losing your dad who you cared for for a long 326 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,560 time in your life, which is an unbelievably heavy burden to 327 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,920 carry alongside not only your journey as a trans person, but 328 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,600 also just being in your 20s and just all of the complications 329 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,720 that that entails as well. And so I guess I'd love to know, 330 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,320 is there any particular music which reminds you of your dad? 331 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:10,840 Oh, well, thank you for asking about my dad. 332 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,200 He was a huge part of my life and in a sense, so is the grief 333 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,960 that I feel for him as well. And yeah, it was heavy. 334 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,320 I wouldn't say it was a burden. I think having a chance to 335 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,800 develop and grow a really beautiful relationship with him 336 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:31,400 has been amazing, even though it was at times very hard when it 337 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,360 comes to music, this is funny because my dad was not musical 338 00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:36,320 at all. He had a lung disease and then 339 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,880 the last three years of his life developed dementia. 340 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,600 And I know that for people with dementia, music is such a big 341 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,520 trigger. It's very positive, it's very 342 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,680 strong. So the way that I handled this 343 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,080 situation was just like, let me do all the research on dementia. 344 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,200 I was trying to find out what music he would like and what, 345 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,760 what things I could play to him and do with him to help him 346 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,520 connect more with memories. There was there was nothing he 347 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:00,320 doesn't, I couldn't find anything. 348 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:02,280 He was just like, he doesn't listen to music. 349 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,840 He's the kind of guy who like, watches the news in his spare 350 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:06,880 time. Like that's, that's what he 351 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,000 does. But there was a couple of 352 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,120 moments where my auntie would come round and we would have 353 00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:14,400 like family get togethers and she'd bring her karaoke mic and 354 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,080 little speaker. And he did sing a couple of 355 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,920 times actually, which was really lovely. 356 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,160 But yeah, just kind of older Hindi songs, nothing in 357 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,280 particular that would music to me. 358 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,520 My dad. Well, I, I mean, I remember when 359 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,280 I was listening to my selection of Limp Bizkit and you met or I 360 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,400 would play in the car on the way to school and he would drop me 361 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,600 off and he would just be like, what is this? 362 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,920 It's like he he he would ask his questions where it's like, Are 363 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,720 you sure you like this? Like, do you really enjoy this 364 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,680 music? You know what, I don't think he 365 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,680 was the only dad in the UK asking those questions for some 366 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:54,920 reason. I love that. 367 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,520 Wow, we better get into some of these selections. 368 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,880 The track that you picked, tell me what it is and why you chose 369 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,600 it. OK, the track is called Get your 370 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,520 fucking laws off my body by planning to rock. 371 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:17,960 That's their stage name. Their name is Jam. 372 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,160 They use them pronouns. They are an English Electro 373 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:28,640 musician, producer, they also do remixes, they are self-taught, 374 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:30,800 they're non binary, they're queer and their music just is 375 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:36,600 such a reflection of that. This track was released this 376 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:41,320 year, so 2024 and they wrote it to support the campaign to ban 377 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:43,840 this so-called conversion therapy in the UK. 378 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,440 It was meant to be banned but the Tories reversed the 379 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,200 decision. So Jam wrote this track to 380 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:56,560 support and uplift trans people. You know, really saying that our 381 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,520 bodies are under attacked. CIS people are deciding what our 382 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,640 bodies are and the rights that our bodies have. 383 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,560 But actually we as trans people, we have autonomy. 384 00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:10,480 Our bodies are a gift and we choose who gets it. 385 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:20,040 It's always been my body. It's my gift given to me to tell 386 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:26,320 my story through my body. I mean that that says a lot. 387 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,480 But the other the kind of additional reason why I picked 388 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:35,280 this song was because I also was really lucky to be able to be 389 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,240 there on the night of the the launch party for planning to 390 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,480 rock. Something else that wasn't on my 391 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,560 CV that I do in my spare time is I do go go dancing for a little 392 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,080 trans mask troupe called Spice Boys. 393 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:53,600 And so I planning to rock jam invited us to me and baby spice 394 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:59,520 to dance on stage. So I had my sunglasses on, 395 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:05,760 glitter all over black harness and I was entering stage as 396 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:10,120 Haram spice and it was just this wonderful event entered. 397 00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:12,640 Everyone on stage was trans. You know, we were dancing to 398 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,280 this song. We were just letting go and it 399 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,640 was just an amazing moment. It was really amazing. 400 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:23,200 I did have a question for Harlem Spice down here about using more 401 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,440 garlic than the recipe calls for, boxing with a limp wrist, 402 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,280 and being a bad Muslim. Yes, my DMS are open. 403 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,720 I love the Spice Boys. I love the entire thing. 404 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,680 I'm glad that you raised it because yeah, I did have a 405 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,920 question to this about tell me about the Spice Boys. 406 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:41,120 So how many performances have the Spice Boys enjoyed so far? 407 00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:45,280 Gifted to the world. I think there's maybe more than 408 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:50,040 five, less than 10 of us and we go into kind of different 409 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:51,600 combinations depending on who's available. 410 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:56,040 We, I think it started in 2019 actually, my friend Krishna and 411 00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:00,520 Kusra, they started this. They're both incredible queer 412 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,240 trans theatre makers and performers. 413 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,880 And I think they were just like sick of seeing the same skinny, 414 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:13,160 white, cisgender gay man go go dancers in clubs and kind of 415 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,440 were just like, we need to see more bodies like us. 416 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,640 And I think it kind of started as a bit of a joke between them 417 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,120 two. And then it kind of just came 418 00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:23,480 into a thing. And then they realised other 419 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:28,480 venues and parties and events want to see trans Masco go 420 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,760 dancers on their stages. So yeah, we've been all over the 421 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:33,360 place. It's been amazing. 422 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,440 You've already spoken about the liberation that you feel from 423 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,480 dance and that you've actually felt from a very, very early 424 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,800 memory. Now, I don't think I've ever 425 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,960 spoken to a go go dancer on tracks of our queers so far, so 426 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,040 I feel very privileged. But the nature of a go go dancer 427 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,880 is of course, having a really great time, but being entirely 428 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,760 confident in the body you have and really performing for 429 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:57,040 others. You're performing for yourself, 430 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,840 but you're also performing for others in, you know, a some kind 431 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,800 of like night life environment. Can you tell me about the 432 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,840 feelings that you experience when you are that Spice boy on 433 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,560 stage? It's really interesting that you 434 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,280 pick that up because it is such a performance and about feeling 435 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,000 confident in your body. And I haven't always felt that 436 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,400 way about my body. And actually saying yes to 437 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:24,520 Krishna was a way of like, seeing if I can let go of the 438 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:30,280 internalised transphobia or binary ideas of what I thought 439 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,200 my body or gender expression should look like and having more 440 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,960 fun and thinking less about looking a certain way or moving 441 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,680 a certain way. And actually the benefit of the 442 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,400 real joy of doing with Krishna and Kasril was that they are 443 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,520 both performers. So they wanted to just really be 444 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,520 silly and playful with it. So like 1 performance, we were 445 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,760 lifting these tiny little baby weights and just like acting 446 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:57,480 like they were the heaviest thing in the world and really 447 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,400 like just such melodramatic movements and like just, you 448 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,440 know, exaggerated brushing the sweater of our forehead. 449 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,960 And one we danced with Tom Rasmussen at South Bank. 450 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,720 That was amazing. We had like kinds of baked beans 451 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,080 that we were using to do like little weights with. 452 00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:17,000 It was just really fun, really silly. 453 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,040 It's also not entirely out of the question for the Spice Boys 454 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,840 to be supporting a certain Spice Girl one day. 455 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,120 You know, Melanie C, she's always at the queer events. 456 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,160 I'll see you on stage one day. But back to planning to rock. 457 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,280 I love that you picked the song. I'm a huge fan of planning to 458 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:33,800 rock. I've loved their music for 459 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,400 years. I love their remixes for other 460 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,080 people. I've got like an entire playlist 461 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,160 of planning to rock remixes. They just smash it. 462 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:45,240 And I feel like in the last year alone, their activism has become 463 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,800 especially more visible. And going back to your point of 464 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,400 being a reluctant activist, you know, half the time activist, 465 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,240 probably most of the time people don't want to be an activist, 466 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,000 but they're forced to because of the situations around them. 467 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,480 And there's a lot of scary things going on with the UK 468 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,560 government, the US government, governments around the world 469 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,560 with laws being placed on people's bodies by, like you 470 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,320 said, CIS people. It's a really exhausting 471 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,440 question that I'm sure you've answered many times on stage, in 472 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,720 books, in podcasts, but from now where you're speaking in 473 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,360 December 2024 with what's happened very recently with the 474 00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:24,640 puberty blockers in the UK, do you have something which springs 475 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,600 to mind in terms of the single most effective form of ally ship 476 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,200 that non trans people can demonstrate for the people that 477 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,160 they care about? It's a good question. 478 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,800 It's a question I get asked a lot, but I like answering 479 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,240 because I think it's always useful to to remember what you 480 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,160 can do. I think what is most useful is 481 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,720 if you think about what the things that you can do are like, 482 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,960 OK, if you think about what resources you have or what 483 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,800 capacity you have that's specific to you. 484 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,040 So you're not trying to do something that is that feels 485 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,040 like effort for you to do. Whether it might be access to a 486 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,280 building, it might be financial support. 487 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,640 It might just be like, I have time to listen to you or to come 488 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,280 over and cook food or whatever. And you say that to a trans 489 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,040 person, You say, hey, I see you're in need. 490 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,840 These are the things I can do. Because I mean, I don't, I think 491 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,880 it's hard for most people to answer the question, OK, what do 492 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,000 you need? What can I do to support you? 493 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,280 Like, it's a massive question. So I think when we go to someone 494 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,800 with a list of things that we can do, it's so much easier for 495 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,040 that person to be like, yeah, actually right now I haven't 496 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,280 eaten because I'm so stressed out and I should, if you say you 497 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,440 can do that, then please come and drop off some meals. 498 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,800 Or there's a protest here and we didn't have enough adults there. 499 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,360 It's just people there, which is what happened, is what is 500 00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:41,200 happening recently in London as well, you know. 501 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,760 So can you come along and show your support so it's not just 502 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:45,920 transient people, but at the forefront of this fight. 503 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,200 Yeah, that's my advice. Yeah, thank you. 504 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,160 My favourite line in this song is my body is a gift. 505 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,560 It was given to me. I think that just says it all. 506 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,120 Very powerful. Absolutely. 507 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,040 The album that you picked, what is it and why? 508 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,520 So this is one of the first albums, first CDs that I ever 509 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,680 bought. It's Hybrid Theory by Linkin 510 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:20,480 Park, which came out in 2000, which when I looked that up 511 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,800 again, I was like, well, yeah, I was 10 when I bought that. 512 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,880 It's Linkin Park's debut album. I think I must have seen the 513 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,280 music video for Crawling and just been like I need to know 514 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:44,520 everything about this. And it was that video, that song 515 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,480 that really hit me at that time. Like I was talking about this 516 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:52,840 moment of confusion, not really knowing what I was feeling. 517 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,520 I was struggling a lot. Like I remember, you know, I was 518 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,120 self harming at the time and I didn't really have a way to 519 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,200 express myself, express these feelings I had. 520 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,800 So then I think hearing this kind of music, hearing these 521 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:13,360 lyrics and people, you know, the singing about self doubt, about 522 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:14,920 struggling, you know, I really felt it. 523 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:20,240 And I think just just having that place where I saw people 524 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:25,520 expressing emotions that were so raw in music help me through a 525 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,760 lot of these things. I was feeling, you know, it 526 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:29,240 wasn't just the queer feelings at the time. 527 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,400 You know, my mum and dad were kind of going through a 528 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,160 separation and divorce and it was all really, really messy. 529 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:40,360 We also moved to Pakistan for a year when we were 11 I think, 530 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,960 which was a very difficult and different time as well. 531 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:45,640 You know, I didn't look like other girls. 532 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,760 I fancied girls. I wanted to just read my books. 533 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,960 I just was like, odd. So yeah, seeing punk, seeing 534 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,520 people blending like hip hop beats, you know, Linkin Park, 535 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,360 they were the real introduction to new metal for me. 536 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,240 I remember I, I had this little earring cuff that I maybe got 537 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,960 from classic accessories or something, and I put it on my 538 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,680 lip to be like Chester, like rest in Peace, that Angel. 539 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,840 And I put it on when no one was around and just lipstick to 540 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:22,920 these songs, you know? And it was back in the day when 541 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,360 they put lyric sheets in the inside cover of CDs. 542 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,160 That booklet was torn through and through. 543 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,560 It was amazing. It was a throwback when you 544 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,840 mentioned this album to me and I was listening to it. 545 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:33,920 There's tracks on this album which I probably haven't heard 546 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:47,270 in a long time. In the end, Paper cut, crawling, 547 00:30:47,510 --> 00:30:51,950 absolute bangers. But at the time, I can't say 548 00:30:51,950 --> 00:30:54,990 that Linkin Park were at the top of my musical obsessions. 549 00:30:55,350 --> 00:31:00,120 That said, new metal wasn't and and generally metal as a broader 550 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,400 genre wasn't speaking to me in my teens like it did speak to a 551 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,720 lot of teens that I was going to school with a lot of my friends. 552 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,440 That wasn't my connection. And for some reason, just in my 553 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,400 own little insular world, I just assumed that it was a world not 554 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:19,040 for me. It was a genre that white skater 555 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:23,000 boys listen to or the, the gigs were really scary. 556 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,760 You know, I'm just like, well, that is just not an environment 557 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,240 I want to be in. But I say that because as I've 558 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,680 got older and as I've spoken to people like you through 559 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:35,000 something like this podcast, it has really amazed me the amount 560 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:40,960 of queer people who found a safe space in new metal and adjacent 561 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:42,440 genres. Not only because they love the 562 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,200 music, but because in a way it did give them that permission to 563 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:50,040 be angry, vulnerable, or both at a time where queer people 564 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,960 probably really needed that. Would you say that cheques out 565 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,560 with your experience? Yeah, yeah, definitely. 566 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,160 And I also really hear you on like, is this wild space I can 567 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:01,600 be safe in? Is this my world? 568 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,800 Is it, you know, how much of this is really accessible for 569 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,440 me, especially? It's like, yeah, as a brown 570 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,680 person. But I found these just these 571 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,280 lots of different things that just intrigued me about this 572 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,120 metal world. Like, I did see brown people. 573 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,120 Like, I mean, there was that brown guy in Sum 41, the lead 574 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,560 singer of Killswitch Engage. And then there were women in 575 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,320 metal as well, like Lacuna Coil, Evanescence. 576 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,520 So I I was just like fascinated at these people who were, you 577 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,960 know, quite, quite different. They weren't the white men who 578 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,800 were fronting so much to this music. 579 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:35,640 So I was like, OK, this is awesome. 580 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,360 And they're so different. Like they're so alternative and 581 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,080 they're so punk. So it just kind of it was like 582 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,280 it encouraged me along, I guess, yeah. 583 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,120 Yeah, and Mike Shinoda in Lincoln Park is a Japanese 584 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,760 heritage, so just, you know, alongside the people that you've 585 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,160 mentioned, I can totally see how just that visibility makes such 586 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,080 a difference. What are your favourite tracks 587 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,360 on the album? Oh my God, I could almost list 588 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:11,910 all of them but I would say paper cut in the end with you 589 00:33:12,430 --> 00:33:21,840 one step closer. Yeah, I I think I probably could 590 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:23,640 remember all the lyrics if I listen to them. 591 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,080 Now it's a no skip album for you. 592 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:26,600 Is that what? You're saying it is? 593 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,960 Yeah. Have you recognised a difference 594 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,760 in the way that you hear music from your youth, like what you 595 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:39,480 just said about Linkin Park? How you hear it differently now 596 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,640 that you've stepped fully into your identity compared to, you 597 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,480 know, when you were first hearing this music, when there 598 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,520 was so much more confusion about who you were. 599 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:49,600 Does music sound differently to you? 600 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,720 Is what I'm trying to say in a more eloquent way. 601 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:53,680 That's so, that's so interesting. 602 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:55,160 I haven't really thought about it. 603 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,800 I'm thinking about a playlist I made probably like a few years 604 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,080 ago on Spotify, which was just like a new metal playlist where 605 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,680 I decided that I would just, like, put all the tracks I 606 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,920 listened to in my you on there. And when I listen to that 607 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,719 playlist now, it makes people so happy. 608 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,239 Like, I love it. Like it will be my good mood 609 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,159 playlist. And I think, yes, you're right. 610 00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:21,360 Like I was listening to this music when it was in very dark 611 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:26,320 places and struggling a lot. But I think what it reminds me 612 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,639 of is everything that the music gave me. 613 00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:31,600 Does that make sense? Like, absolutely. 614 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,840 Yeah. So actually, it's the reminder 615 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:38,400 of the things that kept me going, the strength I had, the 616 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,000 ability I could, you know, to express myself. 617 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,360 So it feels really good. And it's a nice connection to my 618 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,000 younger self as well, where I'm just like, oh damn. 619 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,280 Like, you went through a lot and you got here and now we're 620 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,800 enjoying Hybrid Theory again. OK, so we have come to your 621 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,800 artist. I'd love to know who and why. 622 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,040 OK, this might not be a surprise considering how much I've 623 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,880 already talked about bungalow music and Punjabi music. 624 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:10,560 I picked a British Indian composer, singer, musician 625 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,400 called Doctor Seuss. I think for a lot of British 626 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,760 Asians, one track in particular will be like, everyone knows it. 627 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:32,600 It's called Gangana. That was released back in 2003. 628 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,280 So I saw, I was 13. This song, his music is just 629 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:41,680 like the British Asian sound and I, it really just opened up my 630 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:47,040 love for British Asian music. It was like, Oh my God, I just 631 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,160 need, let me take a moment. It was just like this. 632 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,480 The the 2000 was so massive for bhangra like Punjabi and Asian 633 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,160 music. It really came into the UK and 634 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,640 into the mainstream. Rather, you had major label 635 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,000 music labels sounding artists like Rishi, Rich Project, 636 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,760 Punjabi Hit Squad and Doctor Zeus just really took off on the 637 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,080 back of that. And it wasn't just Punjabi 638 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,400 music, it was hip hop, it was garage, it was Punjabi folk 639 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,240 music. It was like this real level up 640 00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:19,280 from the Bollywood and Hindi music I was listening to at home 641 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,320 and dancing privately in my room, in my living room. 642 00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:25,360 And now suddenly we've got Punjabi music on the charts, 643 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,360 like on Top of the Pops. People are talking about it at 644 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,720 school and I'm playing at house parties. 645 00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:32,000 That was the track that got everyone moving. 646 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,440 So it was really big for me hearing Doctor Seuss. 647 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,960 Like it made me feel part of something. 648 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,920 I think it really connected me to my to being Asian, to being 649 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:42,760 Punjabi. And it felt like kind of like a 650 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,600 root, you know, like this is a part of me. 651 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:47,080 This connects me to other people. 652 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,680 And I think especially at a time when people were scared of 653 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:57,160 Muslims and brown people and you know, there was racism was 654 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,160 different back then. You know, it was a lot more 655 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,400 everyday. There were a lot of stereotypes 656 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,840 out there. So having this root of like, 657 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,040 actually, no, I'm, I'm Punjabi. I'm proud. 658 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,440 This is what connects us all. We're, you know, celebrating, 659 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,000 We're dancing together. It was amazing. 660 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,000 And even when I actually went to Brighton, I went there when I 661 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,480 was 18 to study and be more gay. I. 662 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:24,160 I I really, and it was a very white town and I did miss 663 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,600 dancing to Punjabi music in clubs, but actually I I didn't 664 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,400 stop listening to it. And I remember I would always be 665 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:32,680 stealing the all score to parties. 666 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,960 I brought bhangra to my friends where like one of my first 667 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,080 girlfriends, I'm writing, she was white English and she was 668 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,640 just learning the words to an Imran Khan song. 669 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,160 And it was just amazing. I was just like, yeah, this is 670 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:46,800 really nice. You know, this is it. 671 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:48,800 Sorry. I went on of it. 672 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,520 I was so I'm so passionate about Punjabi music. 673 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,640 Honestly, it's yeah. I just think it's beautiful. 674 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,600 I'm in no interest of having you stop, to be honest. 675 00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:12,600 I love it. I love that passion, I love how 676 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:17,360 it shines and it's clearly such a source of joy for you today. 677 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,400 Is it like Punjabi music, something that you regularly go 678 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,840 back to today? Oh definitely. 679 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:27,960 Like it's always my standard music, like in the car, on the 680 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,760 tube, at home. Yeah, it's and it's like I 681 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,400 actually, I do listen to new Punjabi music as well. 682 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,200 I like the classics. I just, I think it's amazing. 683 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,320 Like even now Doctor Seuss has colled. 684 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,600 Not now, but like a few years ago, Doctor Seuss collaborated 685 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:43,480 with Snoop Dogg. And you can hear like Punjabi 686 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:47,400 music on lots of Hollywood films as well, or Bollywood music 687 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,480 films as well now. So it's brilliant. 688 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,000 And now that I've moved back to West London, to Hounslow, I'm 689 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,960 trying to seek out more club nights where I can dance. 690 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,680 The bung Rob is going back to that feeling of like, oh, it's a 691 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,960 very just normative space and trying to find my crowd. 692 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,960 But you know, I've been to club nights like Club Gali and 693 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,400 actually, but Punjabi Embassy did actually do a Boiler Room in 694 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,520 Southall, which I was really, really lucky to get into. 695 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,880 Yeah. And one of my friends who's a 696 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:22,360 DJ, DJ Ritu, she's a queer DJ, she was deejaying and my 697 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,720 friends, two of my friends, Shiva and Kajal, incredible 698 00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:28,800 dancers like queer as well with dancing there. 699 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:34,080 And it was just like this amazing full circle moment of 700 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:40,160 like my music, my hometown, my my friends, like my people and 701 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,760 Bangor dancing like, and this was it was also so funny because 702 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:45,160 it was like it wasn't like a club. 703 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,360 It was like this like function room which people use for 704 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:52,840 weddings and that carp like heavily patterned carpeted 705 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,880 ceilings, like gigantic glimmering chandeliers. 706 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:03,120 And this like crowd of, you know, straight people, queers, 707 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,240 like people just. Letting go. 708 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,240 And it was beautiful. And on the way home, I had a 709 00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:12,960 samosa and I was like, this is this is what I want. 710 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,920 This is exactly it, yeah. I love it. 711 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,040 It's such a source of pure joy for you. 712 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,200 I feel like we could probably have spent the entire podcast 713 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,480 talking about your love for Punjabi music, and just that 714 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:27,320 vignette of the end of you dancing to such a big name in 715 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:32,720 Punjabi music with queer friends is undeniably powerful. 716 00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:35,840 I love that memory. Do you have, could you list, you 717 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:41,400 know, top three Doctor Seuss tracks if an intrigued listener 718 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,640 to this podcast wants to go away and explore? 719 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,000 I think Kangana would be like the first one that's like the 720 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,600 anthem. If you do want to hear more of a 721 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,680 blend of Doctor Seuss with more modern music, I would say listen 722 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,080 to What's the Track by Snoop Dogg? 723 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:56,680 Woof. Woofer. 724 00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,280 Yeah, like subwoofer. I jumped out the car and let the 725 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,840 beat bang. It still ain't nothing but AG 726 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,800 thing with that heat, man. I stand tall, homie. 727 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:07,960 Got a pocket. Get your man. 728 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:14,400 But if you want to hear something different, I would say 729 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:19,720 listen to the tracks that Doctor Seuss did with Nasrat Fateh Ali 730 00:41:19,720 --> 00:41:23,840 Khan. So he remixed these classical 731 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,600 qawwali songs. I think the album's called 732 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:33,160 Immortal Immortal Nasrit, because You're so far away from 733 00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:37,480 Those Who Love You wasn't born in a plan, but what can you do? 734 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:38,800 A man got to do what a man got to do. 735 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,000 It's really beautiful. So I think actually those two 736 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,360 tracks would give a really good picture of who Doctor Seuss is. 737 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:46,520 And just go from there. Have fun. 738 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,400 Well, we're kind of coming towards the end of what's been a 739 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,040 really lovely, beautiful conversation and I'd like to 740 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,480 give you the opportunity to give a shout out to the charity that 741 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,040 you mentioned. Yeah, absolutely. 742 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,280 Gender Intelligence, they are a national trans youth charity. 743 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:07,520 As I mentioned, they are a trans LED youth service and they are 744 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,680 always providing spaces for young people and families to get 745 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,280 support from people like them, people who really get it. 746 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,720 And I know right now they are well, hopefully right now 747 00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:20,960 they're having a little bit of a break over the winter period, 748 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,160 but you know, the spaces they provide are just so essential. 749 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,360 They even have a, and I don't think this exists anywhere in 750 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,960 the UK, but a service that's just for trans youth of colour 751 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,760 as well, again by trans people of colour. 752 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,760 So it's just, it's such a special place you can go to with 753 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,320 any questions, even if you're just exploring or you have, 754 00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:40,080 you're not sure what's going on for you. 755 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,920 Like just go, there's no one is going to ask you to prove 756 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,080 anything. It's a really affirming space. 757 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:47,760 So yeah, anything you can do to raise awareness to support them 758 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,840 would be much appreciated. Saba Chowdhury, you are queer 759 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:53,440 and thank you very much for your tracks. 760 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,600 Thank you so much Andy. This has been truly the espresso 761 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:57,840 show I needed. I feel great. 762 00:42:58,080 --> 00:42:59,560 Thanks for the conversation. Oh. 763 00:42:59,960 --> 00:43:09,230 My pleasure. You can find links to Saba's 764 00:43:09,230 --> 00:43:11,870 book Supporting Trans People of Colour, How to Make Your 765 00:43:11,870 --> 00:43:15,230 Practise Inclusive, as well as their online presence and their 766 00:43:15,230 --> 00:43:18,190 charity Gendered Intelligence, all in this episode. 767 00:43:18,190 --> 00:43:22,040 Show notes Tracks of Our Queers is presented and produced by me 768 00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,240 and he got entirely on Unseeded Gadigal and the Garriga 769 00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:28,040 Aboriginal Land. You can e-mail me your thoughts, 770 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,240 recommendations or your own Tracks of Your Queers to 771 00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:34,360 tracksofourqueers@gmail.com. See you next time.